Post Holiday Family drama, updated post #62

[Moonhawk]

-- original post deleted, update post #54 --

New update in March, post 62(ish)

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Moonhawk

[Jean in Newcastle]

Support your dh.  I agree with him that it is a deal breaker.  The issue is not whether the pinkie was hurt or not (especially since the injury was a minor one anyway).  The main issue is that the BIL was being a bully.  He did not use his words for the controller.  It doesn't matter if he surprised your son or not - BIL should not have just grabbed it out of his hands unless it was a safety issue.  And when he did use his words, it was to get in a shouting match with a five year old. 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Ouch.  Your BIL sounds like a complete jerk.  Who argues with a 5yo?  (especially one that isn't his, lol)

He will never apologize.  I would drop that requirement, but have DH tell him to chill the heck out around the kids, and that you or he will be doing the parenting, not BIL.  

It sounds like DH was in the room when it all happened, and I encourage you to encourage him to be more proactive.  The second your child is being touched (swung around) against his will, DH should have been stepping in as well.  BIL might have already been putting him down, but DS would have benefitted from hearing daddy say, "Put him down bro, he doesn't like that."  Just knowing daddy is looking out for him will help him remain comfortable around BIL.  

As for the 5yo, the only remark I would make (and I don't think you must make it) is, "Honey, when you find yourself arguing with a grown-up, the best thing you can do is get mommy or daddy involved.  Nobody should be picking on someone smaller than them, and you just let mommy or daddy know you need help and we'll handle it from there."  But your BIL was so completel yin the wrong in this situation that frankly, I wouldn't talk with the 5yo at all about it, except to remind him he did nothing wrong.

[Garga]

Your BIL is a big fat bully.  The way he said that grown ups should back up each other and completely dismiss what kids say?  Yikes!  That’s how child abuse is covered up.  I wonder where he got that idea and what other incidents of bullying or abuse he uses that line to cover.  

I can’t imagine being a 5yo kid and having a grown man bully me like that.  It must have been terrifying.  I don’t know what exactly you should do in regards to BIL, but I’d be seriously comforting my son at this point and doing my best to support him and tell him you believe him.  

I can’t imagine your son will feel safe around BIL for a long time, if ever.  If you decide to let them be around each other, you’ll have to watch BIL like a hawk and step in to protect your son.  I’m not sure it would be worth it to me—to have to babysit a grown man to make sure he doesn’t grab toys from a child, then swing the child in the air in a way that makes the child feel powerless, and also hurting the child, then calling the scared and hurt child a liar for telling his mother about it.  And what happens if BIL starts bullying and being physically aggressive toward your child again?  Will you have the guts to be as aggressive back and shut it down?  I know I wouldn’t because it would scare me too much to confront and angry aggressive man who has no respect for people smaller than him.

Ok...after typing that out, I personally wouldn’t be able to be around BIL for a long, long time after that if ever.  I wouldn’t feel powerful enough to stop such an aggressive man in the moment, so I’d do my best to avoid such a future moment.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Garga

[goldberry]

It doesn't feel like a deal-breaker to me, but I don't know the history your DH knows.  In isolation, I would be inclined to let it go, even though BIL acted like an immature a**.  If there is a history there, it's different.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

As I'm reading other replies, I am agreeing- let your DH decide if this is a deal-breaker or not.  Personally, I would have no desire to have my kids around this person again.  

[PrincessMommy]

I agree with Jean.  It's not the pinky, it's the way your BIL reacted to a 5yr old.   Very inappropriate.  Also, I think this will help with your kids.  They need to know that their parents are on their side.    I would recommend you talk with your son about how sorry you are that you didn't realize what had happened... but now that you know the story you see it differently.  

[Liz CA]

8 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Support your dh.  I agree with him that it is a deal breaker.  The issue is not whether the pinkie was hurt or not (especially since the injury was a minor one anyway).  The main issue is that the BIL was being a bully.  He did not use his words for the controller.  It doesn't matter if he surprised your son or not - BIL should not have just grabbed it out of his hands unless it was a safety issue.  And when he did use his words, it was to get in a shouting match with a five year old. 

 

Yeah...shouting match with  kid over something minor. BIL probably realized too late that he behaved like another 5 year old and got a little embarrassed.

ETA: I would let dh handle this entirely. It's his family and it sounds like he sees a pattern here.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Liz CA

[happi duck]

Bil acted like a jerk.  I can't stand the "I'm the adult" bluster.  I agree with others that he'll never apologize and to follow your dh's lead.

My mil scared and then said something mean to my then 3 yo dd.  Dd got upset and mil threw a fit that dd was not forced to apologize to her.  Ridiculous. 

[Annie G]

As I read it, your ds asked to be put down but bil swung him around and didn’t put him down until he cried out. The kid had a valid reason to cry out whether he was hurt or not. He asked to be put down and his request wasn’t respected.  Bil was out of line from the beginning when he grabbed the controller from behind.  Don’t we all teach our kids to respect other people’s body and personal space? 

He will not apologize and your son will miss playing with his cousins. I’d probably just not let ds be without either you or dh when bil is around and both of you have to resolve to quickly protect your son if the guy starts bullying him. And that includes if he makes any comments about your son being an actor or a baby or a liar or anything.  I’d also talk to your ds about how you reacted- sorry that you didn’t investigate further at the time and that you wish you had stood up for him.  It’s ok to admit that bil intimidates you, but also that you aren’t going to allow him to bully ds again. 

Let dh handle it if possible, but I’d probably also talk to the wife to let her know where you stand. She might not get the whole story from her dh. Then again, maybe she’s fully aware of his bullying. 

I’m sorry- what a crummy way to end a holiday visit. 

[dirty ethel rackham]

I'm in the "let dh handle it" camp.  From what you've typed here, BIL acted like a bully and like a kid having a temper tantrum (didn't ask for the controller, but snatched it out of a child's hands from behind, didn't respect his body autonomy, argued with a kid and called him names, etc.) That alone would be enough for me to be wary of spending time with him and certainly not allowing him to be around my children unsupervised by either you or your dh.  But, the fact that this is an issue among many, I'd say that your dh is more than justified to minimize contact.  

If you do have contact with him in the future, I'd make sure that he knows to leave the parenting up to you two and to leave your kids alone.

[maize]

BiL was egregiously out of line.

Doesn't sound like someone I would want my children around; I feel sorry for his wife and kids.

Sounds like you can safely let your husband handle it.

[ktgrok]

i'm betting BIL's behavior brought up stuff form DH's childhood and he's just not going to put up with it anymore. 

Also, I bet DS's finger got hurt when BIL tried to grab the controller, not when he was swinging him around. It probably happened so fast DS conflated the two. So yeah, i think his finger was hurt, but either way, BIL was trying not just to bully and intimidate DS but also doing the same to you as well. Not okay. 

[lavender's green]

What a stinky way to end Christmas. I can only echo what others say: let your DH handle it. It sounds like he's at the end of his rope. Now, there is a type of person who goes around cutting people off left and right, but it doesn't sound like he's that type. Regular people don't cut off family for no reason. That he's been pushed that far, and especially since he already knows the pain of going no-contact, says a lot.

Sometimes it's possible to maintain cousin contact even when the parents aren't getting along. Maybe you and your SIL can have occasional play dates at a neutral location.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Moonhawk said:

 I don't want to blow up the brother relationship of DH; out of 4 brothers these are the only 2 talking to each other right now (

 I feel like this is too small a thing to sever a whole family. DH says it's not just one thing, that even though this is the biggest, there is a buildup of little things and a general attitude of BIL-always-right (and willing to yell at a 5yo to prove it), and DH's main concern is the kids.   (And DS5 still insists his finger really was hurt.)

So, what should you advise on how to handle this? Let it go? Make it a deal breaker? The middle ground I am trying to find but haven't yet? 

I think you need to protect your kids.   you need to believe your son when he says his finger hurts.

and you're right - you SHOULD have stood up for your son in the kitchen when your bil followed him in to the room to yell at him and make accusations.  why didn't you shut it down? your bil is an ADULT!   your son is FIVE!

how old is the BIL?  tbh - he was behaving like a LITTLE KID on the school playground.

if your dh wants to protect his kids and an apology from his brother - GOOD FOR HIM!

 

 

[maize]

I have to add, I don't think I will ever understand adults who apparently feel threatened by little tiny kids and just have to put the kid "in their place" to prove their own Big Important Adult superiority.

I do not teach my children that they need to be submissive to any and all adults. I expect children to respect other people and to be respected by other people, each according to their capacity and maturity (i.e. I expect a lot more self restraint and looking at things from another's point of view from an adult than from a child). I'm flummoxed by adults who expect more self control from children than they exhibit themselves.

End Rant.

[Garga]

1 minute ago, maize said:

I have to add, I don't think I will ever understand adults who apparently feel threatened by little tiny kids and just have to put the kid "in their place" to prove their own Big Important Adult superiority.

I do not teach my children that they need to be submissive to any and all adults. I expect children to respect other people and to be respected by other people, each according to their capacity and maturity (i.e. I expect a lot more self restraint and looking at things from another's point of view from an adult than from a child). I'm flummoxed by adults who expect more self control from children than they exhibit themselves.

End Rant.

Hear hear.

 

[displace]

I would let it go.  If DH felt a line had been crossed, I’d respect his feelings and see from him what he wants to do if the apology doesn’t happen (if you didn’t state already).  I’d be careful about doing anything at this moment.  All of us (kids and adults), have different perspectives.  Without seeing it directly, there is really no way to know exactly what happened so I’d be cautious about consequences as a result.  Unless this is a pattern already established by this BIL.  I would probably minimize unsupervised interactions between the two just because BIL is showing some behaviors I wouldn’t want a five year old to be subjected to.  

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, Monica_in_Switzerland said:

Ouch.  Your BIL sounds like a complete jerk.  Who argues with a 5yo?  (especially one that isn't his, lol)   someone who is, or acts like a 5 year old

He will never apologize.   - nope , he won't.

  I would drop that requirement,  - I wouldn't.  he needs the message he was way out of line.  he's an adult.  part of being an adult is learning how to control yourself.  someone who is yelling at a child and calling him names is out of control.

 

if this interrupts the relationship - so be it.  this is your dh's family, not yours.  he knows a lot more about what is happening with different members than do you.

and if he did this to your son - it's likely he does the same thing to his own children.

[Storygirl]

Your DH feels he needs to tell his brother not to treat your son that way, and he is well within his rights to do that, as the father and the brother. But if he demands that BIL apologize, I think it will create a rift, because it sounds like BIL will never do that. So I would suggest he drop the stipulation to apologize but make his other points clear. I don't know if texting is the right way to go, but if he does it in a conversation instead, BIL is likely to just argue.

How old is BIL? He sounds immature and rude and insensitive, and he definitely crossed a line.

As far as how you and DH handled it at the time:

-- In the moment, I tend to not know what to say, so I might not have done differently. But I think I would have turned my attention to the son's finger and given him some ice, etc., and tried not to engage in BIL's arguing.

-- I don't understand why your husband didn't address what was going on when it first happened.

-- Perhaps your husband needs to practice how to shut down comments made against you by his family, instead of just mumbling and avoiding.

When we were newly married, my brother tried to get DH to gang up with him against me when brother made cutting comments about me. DH would laugh awkwardly and didn't know what to do. I had to explain to DH that he had to always be on my side, and that brother had a history of bullying me, and that DH couldn't play any part in that, that it was not just friendly sibling ribbing. DH understood my point and learned not to do anything to encourage brother, and brother immediately stopped trying to draw DH in. Sometimes it's hard to change sibling dynamics, but your husband can work at it if he does it deliberately. In the moment, it's hard to think of responses, so he might practice ahead of time.

[gardenmom5]

9 minutes ago, maize said:

I have to add, I don't think I will ever understand adults who apparently feel threatened by little tiny kids and just have to put the kid "in their place" to prove their own Big Important Adult superiority.

I do not teach my children that they need to be submissive to any and all adults. I expect children to respect other people and to be respected by other people, each according to their capacity and maturity (i.e. I expect a lot more self restraint and looking at things from another's point of view from an adult than from a child). I'm flummoxed by adults who expect more self control from children than they exhibit themselves.

End Rant.

adult who are threatened by a little kid are adults who are afraid of being adults and that other adults will figure it out.

 

[Valley Girl]

I'm still trying to figure out who--when told he/she has even accidentally hurt a child's finger--doesn't say "I'm so sorry, buddy. Let's get some ice for that."

[wintermom]

Either your bil extremely immature or maybe he was drinking and acting completely inappropriately. Either way,  I support the "spend a lot less time with this guy" strategy, whether it's your idea or your dh's. This is not the behaviour of a rational adult. Why would you want to spend time in his presence?  Your 5 year old acted appropriately by leaving the room and standing up for himself to poor behaviour.

I don't think a text to the bil would be useful. I'd just suggest to drop the topic and spend minimal time with this guy. There's probably good reasons why the brothers in this family don't seek out spending time with each other. You aren't necessarily a "hero" by being the ones to spend time with this brother.

Edited December 26, 2018 by wintermom

[bolt.]

I think BiL lost his temper and just got a bit entrenched while he upset — because he was upset.

I think your husband is upset now.

Probably the best thing is to encourage your husband to let things cool for a week or two. In a week or two, if it’s still a deal breaker... then, so be it. It’s his branch of the family, and I don’t think you should do more than advise caution and support his decisions (within reason).

Personally I think asking for an apology is pointless (and likely to make things worse). If the point is to “clarify” the situation by drawing a line in the sand — okay, then, I guess.

But BiL isn’t going to do it, because it’s humiliating — and that’s pretty much why your husband wants it, I think. Basically he can blame BiL for ‘not apologizing’ instead of asserting/owning that some distance is what he actually wants. So my advice would be to just skip that step of, “If you don’t apologize we will pull back in the ways we relate.” Instead, just say, “Because we can’t accept that kind of treatment of our kids, we are pulling back in the ways we relate.” — Or just pull back to where you-both are comfortable, and don’t really notify them in a formal way.

(Even If BiL ‘apologizes’ he is still the same guy. He’s not going to get less hot-headed with your kids on the basis of being backed into an apology one time. If he is a boundaries-required type of relation... he just is one: with or without insincere amends over this event.)

[mom2scouts]

I haven't read the other replies yet because I don't want them to affect my answer.

BIL was more immature than the 5 year old. Sneaking up behind a child, grabbing something out of his hands, and picking him up and swinging him around may be something you do in fun with a child you have a good and playful relationship with, but was not at all appropriate in this situation. If the child's finger got hurt by accident or even if it was a lie to stop the inappropriate behavior, it should have brought a response of "Oh, sorry I hurt your finger!" BIL went into the kitchen and escalated an argument with a 5 year old, called him a liar, and then pouted because the adults didn't take his side? Seriously? How old is BIL? Anyone over the age of 10 should know enough to behave better than this.

[DoraBora]

I fall in the "let dh decide" camp, but I will add that I would use whatever influence I have to severely limit any contact with BIL's family.  Also, I would never again allow my BIL to be around any of my children without MY supervision.  Never.  (... and of course this means that I would need to be prepared to put a stop to such nonsense immediately, without delay or argument, if it happens again.)

I feel very sorry for your SIL.

[Shoeless]

Your BIL is a bully.  The argument he had with you about your son was him trying to get YOU to agree/participate in the bullying of your child.  When you wouldn't, he moved on to fighting with your DH.  I bet that BIL often uses triangulation as a means to get what he wants. 

Let your DH handle his brother in the way he sees fit.  He knows him better than you.  

As for the kids, it sucks when adults act terribly and it impacts the kids.  But it seems like the price of admission to seeing the kids is putting up with BIL's bullying.  You and DH will have to decide if it's worth it. Maybe you can direct cousin meet-ups through SIL, and ask if she'd like to get *just* the kids together?  It may or may not work, depending on how invested BIL is in making you guys feel bad and be the bad guys of the family.  

Edited to add: I would not want my kids around BIL.  I'd consider contact in public places like restaurants if I had to see BIL, or else I'd stick to the kids like glue and never let them be alone with BIL if we were stuck meeting in private.  BIL will likely bully them again or talk trash about you and/or DH to the kids if he has the chance.   

Edited December 26, 2018 by MissLemon

[TechWife]

2 hours ago, Garga said:

Your BIL is a big fat bully.  The way he said that grown ups should back up each other and completely dismiss what kids say?  Yikes!  That’s how child abuse is covered up.  I wonder where he got that idea and what other incidents of bullying or abuse he uses that line to cover.  

Bingo! It’s completely, 100% inappropriate to have the expectation that the adult is always right. 

[gardenmom5]

40 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

I fall in the "let dh decide" camp, but I will add that I would use whatever influence I have to severely limit any contact with BIL's family.  Also, I would never again allow my BIL to be around any of my children without MY supervision.  Never.  (... and of course this means that I would need to be prepared to put a stop to such nonsense immediately, without delay or argument, if it happens again.)

I feel very sorry for your SIL.

this - because if you're not ready to run interference and shut. it. down. - your presence will actually be worse for your son. he'll get the message "when he's bullied (by anyone) - mom won't stick up for him."

I grew up with adults like this (on both sides the bullies and the cowards).  I have also shut down my mentally ill and very dysfunctional bil when he was being verbally aggressive with my children.  and yes - he did immediately turn on me.   but I'm the adult (even if he was older than me.), and I will protect my kids.

Edited December 26, 2018 by gardenmom5

[Carrie12345]

A grown man who tries to convince a child and his parents that no one should ever believe anything he says about his uncle hurting him? RUN.

[EmseB]

Reading this story I couldn't believe this was a grown adult arguing with a 5yo over a hurt finger. I kept reading back trying to figure out if I missed something, like this BIL also happens to be 5yo.

I know that it can suck to limit contact, but given the events described I would have no qualms about avoiding this guy as much as possible.

[Ann.without.an.e]

I haven't read the other replies so I am sorry if this is repetitive.  Your BIL sounds very immature.  I beg you to 100%  let your DH handle this completely.  He should wait until he is clear headed and not angry, but he should talk to BIL.  It will go better between them than if you are involved.  

Edited December 26, 2018 by Attolia

[Lady Florida.]

I started to read replies then decided I should post my thoughts before I read more.

I don't know if it should be a deal breaker but your dh is the one saying it is and it really depends on whether or not he wants to continue to have a relationship with the only brother he still has one with. It sounds like he's been thinking about it for a while though and this incident pushed him over the edge. It's hard, especially if the cousins get along and you don't want your kids to lose that. 

Your bil was definitely over the line. I mean, he said "I don't argue with children" and yet he continued to do just that. To argue like that and repeatedly call a 5 year old a liar is not being the adult in the situation. And really, why was it such a big deal to him? Would it kill him to say "I'm sorry ds5, I didn't mean to hurt your finger" and then maybe say something about it not being a serious injury IF he felt the need to qualify it to save face. 

The more I think about his behavior the more I lean towards letting your dh make the decision. If he was there and saw it, and if he's saying there are other things that have been upsetting to him, it's probably time to let him cut ties with his brother if that's what he thinks you all need to do. This guy isn't someone I'd want around my kids often anyway. Not if he's going to bully little kids, call them names, and try to bully their mother into agreeing with him when she doesn't know the whole story.

One more thing. I know this isn't your situation but his comment about how adults need to automatically back each other up and believe them instead of listening to children is so wrong. That's how things like child abuse and child sexual abuse were covered up for so long. If we don't believe the children we can't uncover such horrors. As I said, I'm not accusing your bil of anything, but just saying I totally disagree with his "always believe the adult over the child" statement.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Lady Florida.

[DesertBlossom]

I agree with the pps. There is no point asking BIL to apologize. Because I avoid confrontation I would just be unavailable for family get togethers going forward. If DH wants to meet with BIL, fine. But I wouldn't have my kids over again.

[Innisfree]

So many others have said it already, but I find this BIL's behavior both cruel and outrageous.

The initial encounter with your son over the joystick showed immaturity and poor judgement. But continuing to argue and insisting that his view must prevail over a child's pushes it over the edge into an area of deep concern for me.

He is trying to use adult power to discredit the word and feelings of a small child. He is using anger and bluster to try to force you to agree with him, instead of respecting the word and feelings of your small child. He is showing zero concern for your son's actual feelings.

I think your dh has made a good call. I would not trust that BIL around my children.

[Catwoman]

5 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I think you need to protect your kids.   you need to believe your son when he says his finger hurts.

and you're right - you SHOULD have stood up for your son in the kitchen when your bil followed him in to the room to yell at him and make accusations.  why didn't you shut it down? your bil is an ADULT!   your son is FIVE!

how old is the BIL?  tbh - he was behaving like a LITTLE KID on the school playground.

if your dh wants to protect his kids and an apology from his brother - GOOD FOR HIM!

 

 

 

Exactly! Moonhawk, as I read your post, I wanted to scream at you to defend your little boy, and honestly, I think you totally screwed up and should apologize profusely to your son for not immediately believing him. He needs to know that he can trust you to always support him. What if your BIL had molested your son and not just acted like a bully and hurt your son’s finger? Obviously, you would want your son to run to you for help in a situation like that, but if he sees that you won’t necessarily believe him and take his side over something like what happened on Christmas, he may not trust you enough to tell you if something really awful happens.

I absolutely agree with your dh. He should call and confront his brother — preferably when your ds can hear him do it, so he knows his dad will always defend him — and you should be right there telling your son how you should have defended him on Christmas, but since you messed up, your dh is going to take care of everything.

Personally, if I’d messed up at the time but later regretted not defending my child, I would be in on that phone call to BIL to give him a very strongly worded piece of my mind, and I would be sure my son heard me do it. You could tell BIL that you didn’t want to make a scene at the family Christmas celebration, and that’s why you didn’t say anything at the time.

I’m sorry to sound so harsh, but you really need to apologize to your son.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Catwoman

[Junie]

I feel sorry for BIL's kids.  And his wife.

Was he drinking?  If so, he needs to get help.

If not, then he needs another kind of help.  And I would keep my kids away from him.

[Rosie_0801]

With my moderator hat on:

Keep it calm, People. The OP won't be helped by being vigorously shamed for being caught off-guard. Amygdalas are not known for their rational viewpoints.

[Ottakee]

3 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

A grown man who tries to convince a child and his parents that no one should ever believe anything he says about his uncle hurting him? RUN.

This is my concern (and OP, you know the backstory so can decide if we are over reacting or not).  I worry about an adult that physically swings a child around after child asks to be put down, denies hurting the child, calls the child a liar and expects the adults to 100% back him up.   It might be a far over reaction, but these things can be "tests" to see if a child will make a good victim or not.....will they tell, will adults side with child or adult, etc.

[SereneHome]

OK, so....yes, I did the entire OP, but I couldn't get passed  - BIL came from behind and grabbed a remote from child's hand.  Everything after that would be just soooo much fuel on my fire.

No one is going to grabbing things out of my children's hands unless they are holding an open flame something.  And if your husband, the guy's brother is willing to cut ties - that says something as well. 

I would talk to my kid and tell him that he did nothing wrong and the whole situation is 100% BIL's fault and that I will take care of it.

Edited December 27, 2018 by SereneHome

[prairiewindmomma]

56 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

With my moderator hat on:

Keep it calm, People. The OP won't be helped by being vigorously shamed for being caught off-guard. Amygdalas are not known for their rational viewpoints.

Yay!! You are a mod again! 😁

 

[prairiewindmomma]

I think we're all agreeing that BIL was out of line. 

I'm in Camp Deal Breaker, or, for family gatherings like funerals, Camp Never Let Kids Out of My Sight in his presence. All of the red flags are waving---immaturity, poor judgment, abuse, whatever---something is not right. 

I'd also tell your child that you are proud of him for standing up for himself even when an adult disagreed with him. You are glad he came to you with his problem. I think MissLemon's post is spot on about triangulation. When you've had a couple of weeks to mull things over, I'd suggest reading it again with fresh eyes to see if it applies. 

 

[Jyhwkmama]

8 hours ago, Garga said:

Your BIL is a big fat bully.  The way he said that grown ups should back up each other and completely dismiss what kids say?  Yikes!  That’s how child abuse is covered up.  I wonder where he got that idea and what other incidents of bullying or abuse he uses that line to cover.  

I can’t imagine being a 5yo kid and having a grown man bully me like that.  It must have been terrifying.  I don’t know what exactly you should do in regards to BIL, but I’d be seriously comforting my son at this point and doing my best to support him and tell him you believe him.  

I can’t imagine your son will feel safe around BIL for a long time, if ever.  If you decide to let them be around each other, you’ll have to watch BIL like a hawk and step in to protect your son.  I’m not sure it would be worth it to me—to have to babysit a grown man to make sure he doesn’t grab toys from a child, then swing the child in the air in a way that makes the child feel powerless, and also hurting the child, then calling the scared and hurt child a liar for telling his mother about it.  And what happens if BIL starts bullying and being physically aggressive toward your child again?  Will you have the guts to be as aggressive back and shut it down?  I know I wouldn’t because it would scare me too much to confront and angry aggressive man who has no respect for people smaller than him.

Ok...after typing that out, I personally wouldn’t be able to be around BIL for a long, long time after that if ever.  I wouldn’t feel powerful enough to stop such an aggressive man in the moment, so I’d do my best to avoid such a future moment.

 

Yes. I'm with you. I would not be around BIL for a looong time, if ever.

[catz]

I think this is a deal breaker.  5 year olds should not be grabbed or picked up without their permission.  That's a bodily autonomy thing.  So the problem started before he called the 5 year old a liar.  And then to argue and call the kid a liar!?  Well that's just an a$$hat move.  

Appropriate parenting/uncling would have been "hey guys, 5 minute warning to give up controllers because then we're going to X" and then follow up in 5 minutes with expectations they will be put away.  That would have been respectful treatment of the kid.  

[J-rap]

Wow, BIL sounds like a little kid!  Something seems really off with him.  It wouldn't be the deal breaker for us, but I wouldn't be spending much time with him either.  He doesn't seem like the kind of person I'd want my children to be around, at all.

[Farrar]

Agreed with all the above about the whole situation you witnessed where he argued with you and your ds. I mean, wow.

But also... for me, the line might have been crossed the moment he grabbed things from my kid, then physically picked him up as part of a punishment and swung him around even as he asked to be put down. Like, what the heck. I don't trust people who would pick up my child against their will unless it was truly for their own safety, especially with a parent right there. I don't fully understand why the OP's dh didn't object to that on the spot. Unless, of course, it's because this guy is just such a bully that this behavior has gotten normalized and everyone is a bit afraid of him all the time and doesn't want to rock the boat.

[AbcdeDooDah]

This is petty but I would want to text BIL "BIL, you're right, you didn't hurt ds's pinky when you picked him up. It happened when you grabbed the controller away from him  from behind."

[MaBelle]

Deal breaker.  Nobody bullies your children.  No. Body.  No. ^*%&$. Body.

Edited December 27, 2018 by MaBelle
Didn't like () in my cuss word.

[readinmom]

I was done at "I don't argue with children"...

He was acting like a child...I hope that you are feeling better about it now.  Your children come first, no matter what.  

 

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Take it easy on OP.  She was clearly blindsided by the whole thing.  She's trying to get packed up to leave, her kid is crying, her BIL is yelling, she has no idea what's going on... it's ok that she didn't handle it *just right* in the moment- she also didn't sacrifice her ds to BIL... she said honestly that she had no idea what was going on.  Once it was sorted out, she DID apologize to ds, and I'm sure as decisions are made, she will continue to talk with him about it.