Friendship Question *Do Not Quote*

[Chelli]

****PLEASE DON'T QUOTE AS I WILL PROBABLY DELETE DETAILS LATER****

 

I'm not sure why it bothers me so much other than I thought I knew her better than that. I felt we had similar values and similar mindsets about right and wrong in the world.

 

Is this still none of my business or am I justified to feel this way?

 

Could you stay close with someone who'd behaved this way?

 

This is not a JAWM. I'm truly interested in opinions.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Chelli

[Melissa in Australia]

I could not stay friends with someone who behaved like that

[Guest]

You're justified in feeling disgusted at her actions AND beyond the comments you've already given her it's not your business. You have every right to distance yourself from the friendship if you need to do it for your own peace of mind, you're not obligated to stick with her when she is behaving that way.

 

Don't chastise her, or say anything else, just separate yourself from her and if she inquires then you can explain your feelings and why you aren't comfortable remaining her friend.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't see why you should have to act like you think it's all fine just because she's acting like she thinks it's all fine.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense to treat her behavior like some sort of an emotional breakdown or midlife crisis, and stand by for awhile, as her friend, in hopes that she comes to her senses?

 

But if she doesn't, if she never even cares how many people she hurts, then it also makes sense that your relationship will probably have to change. Because how can anyone intimately support and agree with such decisions? 

 

When you inevitably have to step back, she will probably cut you off first. You probably won't have to be the one to make the decision, if you are speaking truth she doesn't want to hear.

[FriedClams]

I've always heard that if you want to see what a person is really like, look at their five closest friends. If her behavior contradicts your values, tell her, and be prepared to move on.

[Farrar]

Wow. I had a friend who left her dh in nowhere near as spectacular a way, but it was also callus and unfeeling and it left me deeply unsettled. I was never able to really re-establish the friendship, honestly. I just found I didn't have a lot of respect for her anymore.

 

As she's your best friend, I think I'd sit with it for awhile and see how you feel. There may be more to this going on. It may be that in six months or a year or whatever that she'll have - not realized the error of her ways exactly, but perhaps she'll be in a different place with it all and you can stay friends. But perhaps not. It's not wrong to realize that you don't share the values you thought you shared and that you need to move on from the friendship.

 

I'll say too... one reason you may want to back off, at the very least for awhile, is that if you stay close, it may be hard for you not to just be judgey toward her about it all constantly, which isn't a good basis for friendship down the road. And isn't good for her either.

[goldberry]

One of my closest friends went through a period where she behaved this way.  I distanced myself from her, I just couldn't be around that kind of behavior. I didn't preach at her, but when she would talk to me, I would just have less and less to say until finally she understood that I was really uncomfortable with the whole thing and couldn't relate to the choices she was making.  

 

Later, when she came out of that phase, she sought me out again and we resumed our friendship.  

[MotherGoose]

If she's been your b f for quite awhile, I would definitely hesitate to end the friendship over this at this point. Perhaps she's lost her mind for a time and will come back to reality and be very remorseful, eventually. Perhaps there were awful things going on in the marriage you still don't know about that led her to this. It's not okay, either way, obviously. I. would be inclined to try to still be her friend while offering a supportive, non harsh or punitive opinion that this behavior is not okay. If, some months from now, she's still seeing random guys and seems to be on a permanent trajectory towards a mess, then I might rethink the friendship.

[Anne in CA]

I would be worried she was having some kind of breakdown and I would not want to abandon a friend who was having a breakdown... so I would be there for her, still spend some time with her, make sure her kids were okay, but  I would not consider someone my best friend who was being so reckless. These guys could have been anyone, in fact, almost guaranteed that they were creeps due to the way she met them, decent men don't do that, and she let them into her life. The much recklessness is bound to bleed over into other areas and so I couldn't trust that person again.

[OneStepAtATime]

Could she be suffering from anxiety and depression? Perhaps she is not herself right now. Could she be married to someone that caused her to suffer some sort of emotional abuse? She may not be reacting in a way she would normally choose to if she were in a healthier place emotionally/mentally.

[goldberry]

Also, it may be a phase and she may come out of it.  Or, it may be the beginning of a new way of life for her, where she puts herself first and screw everything else.  I've seen it go both ways.  The outcome will dictate if your relationship can be salvaged or not.

[lllll]

nm

Edited July 9, 2016 by ~ d9n

[Alessandra]

I don't quite know what to say. I think I'd just sit back and see what happens, rather than cut off someone who is a best friend. She is hurting herself, but is not a danger to you, right? It may be that she is actually more angry than promiscuous. Who knows what went on in her marriage. She may be getting back at her soon to be xdh.

[aaplank]

My best friend went through an awful period in her life where she became "unhinged". She was behaving erratically and out of character, and violating every cultural norm in her life. She was sleeping with random guys at the gas station, she fooled around with her brother in law, all the while bringing her baby in a car seat during these activities. I could keep listing all the erratic things she was doing, but I think you get my point.

 

She was really crying out for help. It turned out that she is bipolar and needed psychiatric help. I'm glad I didn't turn my back on her during the most depressive time in her life. I helped her get the help she needed and she is doing much better, even years later.

 

If you have known your friend for a long time and her behavior seems completely out of character, you might want to see if there is something psychological going on underneath the surface. You can still fundamentally disagree with how your friend is behaving, yet love her through this hard time. Maybe some prayers for hope, help and wisdom?

[MistyMountain]

I went through a similar situation with a very close friend. She changed so much in her behavior and values after a divorce. I did say that I did not agree with her decisions and behavior and eventually things did change. We started talking less and she could never talk when I called.Things have settled down and we see each other and talk sometimes but they are not quite the same. I did not drop her but I also did not condone things but it is different now. It happen to me when I was drifting from others due to different schedules with kids in school and moves so I just had to get used to not having a close friend to tal things through with.

Edited July 1, 2016 by MistyMountain

[SKL]

I would have a hard time with that, unless there was some explanation like mental illness.

 

I do know someone who did similar, and no, I cannot respect her even 10 years later.  Not that she was my friend really, but we are relatives and we could have had chats about motherhood and such.  Nope.

[nd293]

I could not stay friends with someone who behaved like that

Same here.

[madteaparty]

Not that you asked, but as a friend, I would warn your friend about her upcoming custody battle (because there will be one) and how her actions might affect that. Nothing ruins one's life like a custody battle.

Edited July 1, 2016 by madteaparty

[Janeway]

Your friend is an abuser. You may not see it now, but some day, you probably will.

 

I have this friend. A few years ago, she kept telling me how difficult things were in her life and how terrible her husband was. She always seemed like she was asking advice, and I would try to give her words of wisdom. And then, one day, she told me things were just so bad she had to leave him and she had filed for divorce. Over the next few months, it came out that she had been cheating on him and had been cheating on him all that time where she was claiming things were so bad and he was the bad one.

 

Let's face it, people who would otherwise be great spouses do not go out and sleep around on their spouse because their spouse was bad. People who cheat do it because that is the sort of person they are. They know it really hurts their spouse and they just do not care because they wanted to do it. It is no different than someone who beats their spouse. Only bruises and broken bones heal. AND, abusers often blame their victims. The victim was bad. The victim was hurting them. The victim was abusing them, etc etc etc. In fact, almost 100% of the time, abusers blame away their actions, justify them, by claiming the victim, who they refuse to see as a victim, was bad, asked for it, was not good enough, etc etc etc. 

 

If you chose to remain friends with this friend, then you are choosing to remain friends with an abuser. Cheating on your spouse is abuse, has the mentality of abuse, hurts the spouse, etc. 

 

That is my opinion.

 

Also, to recap, people who cheat or otherwise abuse their spouses will blame the spouse, claiming the marriage was bad, the other spouse was bad, etc. Just want to make sure you did not miss this part.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Janeway

[DawnM]

My best friend from high school did this.

 

I still love and care about her deeply, but we will never be as we once were.  We just don't have the same values anymore.

 

It makes me sad. 

 

I stood by her and always will in terms of being available for her to talk to, but things are very different than they were.

 

 

[DawnM]

I've always heard that if you want to see what a person is really like, look at their five closest friends. If her behavior contradicts your values, tell her, and be prepared to move on.

 

 

That is an interesting thought.  

[Reefgazer]

She's your friend - so the particulars are your business by virtue of your relationship.  But people are flawed and fallible, even the ones we seem to have so much in common with.  If I were in your shoes and was friends before these incidents (actually, I have been there), I would continue the relationship; no one is perfect.  OTOH, you can't force a friendship, so if you drift away because of this, then you do.  I wouldn't intentionally cut ties because of this problem, though.

Edited July 1, 2016 by reefgazer

[AmandaVT]

Everyone that I know that has gotten divorced has gone a little crazy in the period right before and during the divorce proceedings. My best friend acted similarly right after she and her ex separated and I did back away a bit during her crazy period. After a year or so, she settled down again and is back to being the friend I had known for years, but she made some really bad choices during the separation from her ex. 

[madteaparty]

She's your friend - so the particulars are your business by virtue of your relationship.  But people are flawed and fallible, even the ones we seem to have so much in common with.  If I were in your shoes and was friends before the incidents (actually, I have been there), I would continue the relationship.  No one is perfect.

 Yeah this. I mean, I would step back if asked to justify/rationalize whatever she is doing that I don't agree with, if you feel used.

But otherwise, what is the purpose of friends? So we can get in line to sit in judgement? Listen, women pay for this crap so so much in the end anyway. I don't need to contribute to the retribution culture.

[bettyandbob]

The behavior is disturbing and reckless, but I'd also wonder what happened/was she seriously depressed? 

 

Depending on the relationship, I might simply distance myself for a while. 

[TravelingChris]

No, I couldn't be a friend of such a woman.

[marbel]

I have lost two friendships because of behavior like this.  The women are still in my life, peripherally, and have never shown remorse.  They attribute it to a normal phase everyone goes through when first separating.  I  don't find it normal at all.  So, no, I wouldn't be able to stay friends with someone like that unless/until they expressed remorse over what they had done. 

 

It's true that no one is perfect but to me there are some things that cross a line.  Infidelity is one of those things. 

 

ETA: If I suspected mental illness, depression, etc., I would do what I could to help.  It wasn't the case with the two people I know.

Edited July 1, 2016 by marbel

[Carol in Cal.]

This is impossible for me to imagine myself into, so I don't have any advice.

Weird, very weird.

Janeway might be right.

A lot of really crazy people do "pre-season" reputation demolishing before they break with someone.  Then again, sometimes people who are cheated on figure that what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, at least temporarily.  And people who are depressed sometimes go a little crazy with risky behavior.  It's really hard to know what is going on here.

[MomatHWTK]

When a female friend chooses to enter into relationships with married me, I distance myself. If the woman does not respect marital boundaries, I have no guarantee that she'll respect my marriage. DH is trustworthy. But I am not interested in having that kind of drama in my life. 

[Janie Grace]

If you have known her all these years to be a sensible, loving person, I would see this as an aberration and a cry for help. I would want to be the voice of reason and balance that she probably craves. I would provide the love that her heart is yearning for and that she's seeking in the wrong places. A friendship with this kind of person wouldn't last for a long time if they continued on this path (too different) -- but for a while, I would bear with her and try to remind her of who she really is. I guess I would hope I could play a redemptive role -- not condemning but calling her back to what is healthy, right and safe.

[NorthwestMom]

I had a friend who I absolutely loved. Our families spent tons of time together and vacationed together. Our kids were close friends. After her family of origin had a tragedy, my friend fell into a deep depression. She barely functioned and was fortunate enough to have a young relative come and help her with her children during the day. We all felt terrible for her and for her DH, who worked full time as their sole-support, then came home to a second shift of childcare and housework while my friend went running, surfed the web, or did other things in an attempt to recover her peace of mind.

 

We were SHOCKED to discover that she was spending that time reconnecting with her high school boyfriend. It seemed so out of character. Several of us spent hours talking to her, encouraging a mental health evaluation (since Jesus spoke to her while she prayed and told her that her relationship with the boyfriend was A-OK with him). She and this man were both purportedly conservative Catholics! She ultimately chose divorce because she absolutely refused to give up her "special friendship". :ack2:

 

She asked me to stay friends with her and literally asked for my "unconditional support". I don't give unconditional support to people who cheat on their spouses and think that "it will be better for the kids if I am happy". She was not remorseful for her actions and complained about her spouse "not understanding" her. They are divorced now and we spend time with him and the kids. She and I are civil during play date kid exchanges.

 

If our ethics and values are so wildly divergent, we can't stay friends. Her children were hurt and she refused to acknowledge her role in that. Additionally, she hid this behavior for a long time and pretended to hold family values that she clearly did not care about. She was not her authentic self with me. Nope - we are not friends, merely acquaintances.

[Pen]

I would say that since you know about it, it has become your business.

 

You are justified in your feelings.

 

I would suggest expressing your own feelings about the situation to her.

 

Whether you can stay best friends depends a lot on whether she has acted the way she has acted due to situation and emotions that were atypical for her, and out of anger, depression, even something like MS (thinking of movie about sisters Jackie and Hilary --can't recall Jackie's last name, but famous cellist married at one point to Daniel Bahrenboim (sp?) who had sex with her sister's husband as part of coming down with MS and going kinda nuts due to brain trouble, I think), and where you can still love her as a long time bf despite the situation...  more like if she had problems and had tried to commit suicide even if you are morally opposed to suicide...

 

versus on the other hand, if she has just discovered her real self is a "swinging single" type gal, despite being a mom to dependent kids and so on, then I think her values and yours are out of sync and you probably cannot.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Pen

[JumpyTheFrog]

I couldn't be friends with a person like this because their actions would make me lose all respect for them. I might be able to understand going on a date with a few different guys, but such reckless infidelity is way, way over the line of okay or normal.

[EndOfOrdinary]

I think a lot of people sort of lose their mind when they have a divorce. As much as I would like to say I am immune to such terribly contrary to charcter behavior, it is probably not true. I do not know if cheating is how my breaking down would occur, but I know it would be messy.

 

Rosie made a comment in a different thread about how "normal" people look a mess - stressed, pulled crazy thin, run ragged, definitely not themselves - when going through court battles. People who are truly messed up with personality disorders look wonderfully calm and collected.

 

"Normal" people should sort of lose it when their life and family fall apart, they have almost no control over basic day to day, and have to rewrite the script on their whole family lives. To me friendship is what happens when you see the terribly unfortnate side of each other and love one another anyway. At least as far as you feel emotionally safe and it appears that she has started to realize maybe her actions are not the greatest they seemed at the time. I would give her a couple months before bailing. Actions do have consequences. Sometimes it takes a few weeks to get back to your right mind to see that.

 

Though, I would not fault you if the situation becomes too traumatic.

[poppy]

So...... she didn't cheat on her husband, that's not why the marriage is ending.  But now in a crisis she is acting in a reckless, self destructive way.

 

No I would not dump her.   It's been one month.  This is not a pattern. This is a mess. 

 

I wouldn't dump her if she was drinking too much. I wouldn't dump her if she was eating too much and gained 15 pounds. I wouldn't dump her if she got mean as a snake for a couple of weeks. It's one month. Atypical behavior during one of the lowest points of her adult life.    Stand by her, be patient, see what shakes out.

_____

 

EDIT to remove quote..... sorry, it was just one sentence, wasn't thinking.  The point I was making is: no one can ruin  a marriage, except the people in that marriage.  I despise the idea that in a cheating situation, the woman is always the homewrecker.  Your friend is not responsible for anyone's marriage but her own.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2016 by poppy

[Janie Grace]

Oh my gosh, you guys who could "never be friends with someone like this"... I am so sad. We really never know what we would do if completely devastated/disoriented/broken. I really think people need second chances.

[MaeFlowers]

nm

Edited July 1, 2016 by MaeFlowers

[TianXiaXueXiao]

I was in a similar friendship scenario a few years ago. My friend did pretty much the same thing as yours. She really wrecked her kid with her behavior because she dragged her through the string of men she had been involved with. It was truly deplorable what she was doing and I told her so. I was so utterly repulsed by her behavior. I stopped speaking to her. It was very painful to watch her destroy everything that had ever been important to her up until that time. She never showed any remorse. She had plenty of friends who stuck by her side, surprisingly. I'm sorry you are going through this.

[Tammyla]

I could and have continued to be friends with a divorcing friend who was going through a crazy time, but....

 

Your friend is fine with cheating with married men, and you thought she wouldn't cross that line.  Your married and I'm imagining this is a place you felt safe with her before and now your husband might be her next targeted man.  (I'm not saying he would do anything, but I think we all want to be able to trust our best friend not to put the moves on our dh's.)

 

With my friend, I did support her and hang in there for a few years, but have realized this is the new normal for her and we drifted apart because our lives are just so different.  Seasons, friends etc.  we still catch up every so often, but we aren't bfs.  

 

(You also have young children, and protecting them is always a priority along with protecting your marriage.) 

 

 

OH.....and I think you can move the friendship to another level than bf, kwim?

[elegantlion]

Wow, she sounds broken and like someone who needs a friend to keep her moving forward. Divorce induces a rage in some that you cannot understand until you're there. How you work through that rage can be different. In her case, it may be like she's trying to bleach out all the memories of her s*xual life with her soon-to-be ex. It would really make me question what was going on behind the scenes in the marriage before the separation. 

 

What kept me together after separation until the divorce? Trying to keep stability for my son, 1-2 people to really talk to without judgment, and directing that rage into something completely new. I enrolled in college and bought a heavy duty punching bag. 

 

Would she be willing to take any type of fitness class? Will she listen to your counsel? I would not frame it as "this behavior is bad"  I would frame it around how it might affect the divorce and custody.  

[abcmommy]

Your friend is making bad choices and behaving in a way which is not healthy for her.

 

That does not make her a terrible person.  Be compassionate.  You don't have to validate her poor decisions nor do you need to castigate her and shame her.

[JoJosMom]

I haven't read the replies, so forgive me if this has been said.  Is it possible that she is suffering from depression?  I know a person IRL who engaged in a similar pattern of behavior when clinically depressed (and that person had other medical issues [PCOS and related] with chemical/hormonal overtones, so that may have played into it, as well.)

 

:grouphug: , OP.  It's a really difficult situation to navigate.

[goldberry]

I've always heard that if you want to see what a person is really like, look at their five closest friends. 

 

What does it say if we don't have five close friends?   :confused1:  ;)

[goldberry]

DP 

 

Edited July 1, 2016 by goldberry

[J-rap]

I think it's perfectly reasonable and legitimate for her behavior to bother you so much.  Of course it would!  But I think time will tell how it all plays out.  How can you answer that now, when you don't really know the precise circumstances. 

 

One of my best friends since kindergarten went through something where she completely changed paths.  She began sleeping around and worse.  She eventually married and yet still continued down that wild path.  Now, I knew her heart, and I knew that deep down she was really a good and kind person, but that something had gone very wrong.  Of course I couldn't support her lifestyle and choices, and I wouldn't lie to her about that.  But I still loved her dearly and she knew that at the end of the day, I was still in her life and still there for her.  We didn't hang out much together for quite a few years though -- how could we, when our lives and choices had become so different?  But finally, years later, she was ready to seek help, get her head back on straight, and help her children live a better life and make better choices than she had.  I've been back involved in her life now for about five years.  She is back to being the person I first knew -- strong and kind and the sweetest of friends.  I'm so happy for her and how she was able to turn her life around.

 

She did come from a really messed up childhood, so it never surprised me that she went through such tough and questionable times.

[prairiewindmomma]

Do you think she was trying to blow up the marriage so her dh would reject her and just straight up file for divorce? You mention above that he wishes to stay separated for a period before filing.

 

My friend lost her mind recently on the breakup of her marriage.  Things had been bad for a long time, and once she filed she felt she was free.  Other men were offering positive attention and love in all of the wrong ways, and after living through a decade drought of love and positive attention, she did some crazy things because it felt good to be "loved" and "appreciated" and "praised".  She was in such a bad place emotionally that all judgment and distance and rational thought got chucked out the door.  I don't like her behavior. I abhor it. But in reality she was not herself because her concept of self had just been blown up.  Give your friend some time to come to her senses.  Tell her she's a bit nuts right now.  Decide in a bit if you need to part ways.

 

The above comments about mental illness are spot on.  I've had some friends BTDT too. 

[mom@shiloh]

This happened with a friend of mine as well. It bothered me so much that I could hardly sleep for several days. It seemed as if she became a different person overnight and that she had no thoughts about how this would affect her children.  Her youngest child was only three and she would frequently just disappear and make no attempt to care for her kids or make sure that they even got fed.  I was appalled.  How can a mom abandon her kids like that?  But, I listened, encouraged, admonished (uh, sleeping around is foolish) brought her family food, took care of her kids and eventually she just quit talking to me.  I continued to reach out, but if i wasn't going to support her new behavior, she wasn't going to be my friend.  I didn't have to make a decision about continuing our friendship.  It still makes me sad.

[SeaConquest]

As others have suggested, I would look for signs of depression or other mental illness. I behaved in a similarly reckless manner while going through a divorce. In fact, I did much worse things. My behavior was so erratic and out of character that my friends suggested that I go see a doctor. They probably saved my life. I was diagnosed with bipolar. I would not dump her. I would watch for any other signs of mental illness and assist her in getting help, if necessary.

Edited July 1, 2016 by SeaConquest

[madteaparty]

What does it say if we don't have five close friends? :confused1: ;)

:) you'd have me for company

[Bluegoat]

I'd wait it out for now.  I would be upset as well, but I think it's not unusual for people to behave in very out of charachter ways, under the right circunstances.  It doesn't, I think, necessarily always mean they don't actually realize the problem with that behavior - it may be more a matter of feeling like things are awful enough that they just don't care.