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Lang Syne Boardie

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Lang Syne Boardie last won the day on August 28 2018

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  1. There is a truth that is not about bashing mothers or disrespecting religious convictions, and that truth is this: The child of a parent who has chosen their conviction over supporting their kids, might not ever actually fully forgive their parent or reconcile with them. Especially if the parent has no intention of apologizing or finding middle ground, in fact, the parent finds religious or prideful satisfaction in never backing down or softening. It doesn't matter if it happens to the child when they are 12 or 32, it is a devastating hurt. Even if the child always knew their parent was capable of that. It feels like abandonment. I'm not going to gloss over it or blame it all on the son's immaturity. If he doesn't share his mother's conviction, and especially if he disagrees that her faith necessitated that conflict with him, the anger makes sense. It's not a good or happy situation. But it plays out for a zillion families, around the world and down through time. The child learns to live without the support of their parent, and also has to address difficult questions about how they're going to deal with their parent's aging and death, when the time comes. They have to face the fact that their child will not be fully accepted and embraced by their grandparent, that even if there's a relationship, it's going to be just as likely that the grandchild will be left out in the cold, too. (Some of us regret letting our children even know their grandparents, because sure enough, that happened.) The parent learns to live without a good relationship with their child. They cry a lot. They commiserate with other parents of their faith who have had the same outcome. They reassure each other that they are doing the right thing and some kids are just going to reject the faith. They worry about their belief that their children and grandchildren will be in a literal hell. After these anxiety episodes, they reassure themselves for the hundredth time that they are holy and suffering these things for the cause of Christ, and they pray that their kids will repent, and then they stiffen their chin and say, "But he made his decision. I'm not going to let this ruin my life." Truth. The flipside of this truth is that the parent/child bond is very strong, and if the parent would just apologize. Just soften somewhat, meet them halfway, tell them that they love and accept them...the child would probably forgive them and be so glad. Whether they were 12 or 32 or 62 when the parent came to that decision.
  2. Again, with that format of a to-do list, especially with all the underlinings and rationales, you are asking him to share your headspace and care about these things. It seems you want him to internalize the reasons, ponder over your list, and take on these concerns. He's not going to read it and follow it every day. He's more likely to tune you out even more. 😞 I would suggest a sign taped over the sink area - RINSE AND WASH ALL DISHES. And a big sign at the bottom of the stairs - NO FOOD OR DRINKS UPSTAIRS. Tell him to take out the trash and take his meds in person, every day, and watch him do it. On the day you want the carport done, tell him that morning, and tell him you need to know what time of day he is going to do it. Before you hang the signs and tell him things directly (and watch him do chores like trash bins and dish rinsing), you'll need to know what the consequences are going to be if he refuses or ignores. That is *very* hard, he is so close to grown up that if he decides he is going to take food upstairs and let rotten dishes rot all over your property, and he won't take out the bins, and he won't help clean the carport...you are not going to be able to make him. What is your leverage, what are your options... He is not going to care about the rationales. It will go best if he can't take food upstairs and must rinse and wash his dishes, simply because that's the home you want to live in. You refuse to live in his mess. Just my opinions! Take what you can use, disregard the rest; everybody in the thread is trying to help without judgment. I am sorry this is all so hard. I really feel for you. We did not have these extremes here, but we did have moments when I threatened that somebody (or several somebodies) would find themselves living in a tent in the backyard if they couldn't follow basic household rules of sanitation and manners!
  3. I agree. For an 18 or 19yo who was overwhelmed with the executive function issues of traveling and banking, we'd work together on it. For a 22yo who is perfectly capable (as evidenced by going on the trip by himself) but A. doesn't want to, and B. expresses that by throwing a very childish tantrum... it's time to cut the cord. He is letting you know (in a rather rotten way) that he doesn't want to be included or relied upon for family outings or sibling supervision. (As evidenced by his canceling of the whole thing without even talking to you about it, or worrying about their feelings.) He's also expressing that he thinks he knows everything, which 22yos frequently do. Leave him to his grownup life, 15 minutes away. Tell your dh, not with a tone of "What will we do about Johnny," but more like, "I think we were mistaken to expect all of this from Johnny; he pretty much dropped his end of the ball, and then went off to do his own thing. We seem to have come to the end of the family vacation era, unless we are going, ourselves, and making all the arrangements ourselves. I don't think we should put the girls in the position of relying on Johnny again, he's in a different phase now. I'm glad you're going to take them. I hope we can all do a family thing sometime." And let it go. Least said, soonest mended. You are more likely to work out a good adult arrangement with Johnny later if you give him a lot of space right now. He has a LOT to learn, but he might learn it sooner on his own.
  4. I agree and disagree...I was the one who said that an hour of household chores is too much. I was thinking of bedmaking, laundry, washing dishes, dusting, vacuuming. Again, not because it's not important, but just because it's a daily battle to get boys this age to care about those things (or even see the need). The part where I agree is about *work.* My boys were excused from diligent feather dusting because they were literally, physically working outside of the home. They did their own car repair, managed yard work and the stuff that dh usually does, when he was out of town working (like crawl space roof, chimney, HVAC chores), volunteer work with Civil Air Patrol, including search and rescue and encampment leadership, and worked 20 to 30 hours per week at their part-time jobs. They weren't liberated from the dishcloth to go play video games or navel gaze or hang out at the mall; they were working to pay for their own drivers ed, insurance, and cars, and to "achieve" in ways that earned them full merit scholarships.
  5. Ending as peacefully as possible, and drafting your plans tomorrow, is an excellent strategy. The dishes, I'd be throwing them away and getting 25cent plates from the dollar store or something, but too-far-gone dishes are a trigger for me. I'm a super duper frugal tightwad but dishes that have had rot/mold, I just can't. I'm only saying this so you'll feel normal if it hits you the same way. LOL (I am nobody's definition of normal but.)
  6. I am not an administrator nor moderator here. I have no power to shut down your point of view that gay marriage is destroying the nation. If you want free speech, I've exercised mine, no more than you have. Less, actually. The heavier comments, and the majority opinion shutting down the minority view (that all are equal legally and gay people are not immoral), are coming from your side.
  7. I didn't say you were the one who said all the things. You are the one who just listed the KKK, people living together outside of marriage, and shoplifters as being in the same category as the gays, as far as being undesirable wedding parties or otherwise socially unacceptable to some people, but you weren't the one who said that gay marriage is destroying the nation, which is why I didn't name you. I am not naively thinking "those people" aren't reading this board. My point was that all people are. But if you feel my post didn't apply to you, and you think these comments are a requirement of reasoned debate, I'll leave you to it.
  8. Pen, I have a chronic illness. I hear you. When I say that domestic duties don't appeal, I literally mean it can be almost impossible to get boys this age to do anything. It's weird, it's not fair, it's not realistic or right, but it's SO common. I do believe it's a developmental blip. I can tell you that my sons who checked out of domestic life by age 17, who are now 21 and 23, do their daily chores without complaint or comment. The early training paid off. The parents modeling home responsibilities paid off. But during that "go to war" phase or however you want to look at 17-18, they do not see it and don't care. Even if Mom is sick and even if they love their Mom. I think your son would probably rather get a job to pay for housecleaning help than do it himself. He should probably do the lawn and gutter chores, during a specific, blocked time of the week. There's no reason he shouldn't be taking out the trash and walking the dog, but again, if that's listed as tasks-to-complete vs. hours logged, it will probably go better. I think I would try moving toward that direction. Make him a deal about no more nagging about hours logged for schoolwork, as long as he keeps his grades up. Transfer the heavier outdoor jobs to him, at one time of the week when he can consistently do them. On the daily, he should walk the dog, take out the trash, deal with his own laundry, and not make extra work for you in the kitchen and main rooms of the house. That would possibly free you up to do the daily indoor chores? As part of the changing dynamic, I would think it is time for a job. These are the ways I would change this all up, to make him feel that he's out of the kitchen/dusting world but without exempting him from necessary contribution. I hope this is helpful. That part when the teen boys check out at home is HARD. I am sure it's normal. I am sure they shouldn't be chore-free. But obviously something has to change. I hope it helps to know that everyone goes through this in some way. Be flexible and focus on the big picture, if you can.
  9. Is it just me, or does it seem to anyone else that conversations about people who are sinning and in a sad situation and "destroying society" (which is a very strong perspective) should be a little more in-house? I mean, when the people being discussed are (so far and mostly) part of our community, part of every nation, part of humanity, and legally marrying, living, raising children, and working in the civilized nations of the world? In other words, why is it okay on these forums to talk about the legal activities and life experiences of gay people being the end of society and a sin, when no other demographic would be discussed in that manner? No matter the demographic, is it not bigotry? No matter the demographic, is it not discussing people as if their identity and lives may be freely censured, and discussing that as if it doesn't matter that they are here and reading these condemnations? Or is it OK because this is a thread about hurting people in the name of religious freedom, so that's why it's fine to keep doing that right here in this thread. As long as it's someone's religious belief that another person's law abiding activities are destroying the nation and worthy of hell, it's fine to express that thought in a very matter-of-fact way. Is that right? It's not hurting anyone because it's religion?
  10. Mom of four sons here, three of which are now older than 17. The schoolwork should be "do it until it's done, your time is your own once it's done," and the housework should be a very specific chore per day (or a weekly schedule). 17yo boys do not care about housework, and you can't make them be domestically focused around your house. They should have to chip in on some level, of course. Keep their stuff out of shared, main areas, deal with their laundry and trash in their room, and then something like mowing or weekly bathroom cleaning. But a full hour daily is too much. They need to be working, schooling, exercising, socializing; most of their lives should probably be away from the house and away from Mom. Make sure to have check-in times daily; mine used to talk to me when they got home from work. I knew what was going on. We do our heaviest chore years in middle school, before jobs and activities become daily and onerous. We call it "home economics" and make sure each boy is fully trained in cooking, cleaning, laundry, etc., between age 11 and 14. That's because from 15 or 16 up, they're going to be like all the other older teens and basically eating and sleeping here. They'll be knocking out their chores quickly, on the way to something else (much like adults do). That's the other reason we do the training and long hours when they're younger, so that they will have the skills and knowledge to do it quickly as teens and adults. I am not trying to be sexist about women's work vs. the manly needs of 17yo boys; it's just that I've never raised girls so I don't know what they're like at 17, and you asked about boys...
  11. Back to the OP... I am not sure what in the world has gone on. It seems, though, that it may be something like this: 1. Church did (or allowed) something, three years ago, that Son found unconscionable. 2. Mother supported church's handling of the event, whatever it was. 3. Son disagreed with Mother's support of (or loyalty to) church, and actually felt very, very strongly that justice had not been done. Son cannot quite separate the wrongness of the church from Mother's condoning or accepting of that wrongness - at least, that's how he sees it, that she has contributed to the injustice by not condemning it in a public and dramatic way. (Maybe such as leaving the church.) The reason he can't "get over it" or "let it go" is because he thinks that if it were any other setting, more would have been done, by Mother but also possibly by authorities. He may or may not be wrong about that. 4. Then Mother went to someone's wedding when church people disapproved of that wedding, proving that there are times and places when she would go against the church culture (although I don't think that was against a specific command). 5. But then finally, when HE got married in a non-church approved way, Mother would not defy the church and go to his wedding, citing her faith to God. Scarlett, if it went down anything like this, anywhere even close to it, it may be a long time until things are okay. Even then, you might have to apologize or meet him in the middle *somehow* for him to get past all of this. If you could ever decide (not compromise, but decide, after study and self-analysis) that your church may have influenced or expected you to go against your son in some way but your faith (Bible? Jesus?) did not actually specify that, and you took the most harmful option out of religious pride but you regret it...he would probably forgive you. I say this because I have forgiven, but not reconciled with, family members of mine who tolerated spiritual abuse of my family (because they agreed with it) and have shunned and failed to support us because we didn't do what their church said. If they would admit for one second that they could have sided against spiritual abuse and kept a relationship with the minor children of our family without going against their religious handbook, I would reconcile. If they would admit that they don't think their fellow church members who did manage to keep relationships with people who had "left the faith"* are in trouble with Jesus for keeping those relationships, but they'd rather be the shunning kind, themselves, then I would at least respect their honesty. But I don't have honesty. I have "There are times when I will bend the rules in a "pick corn on the Sabbath" way, to help or support someone when I believe in their cause and see their need. There are times when I will go against church ethos in some way because of "working out my own salvation before God," or a conscience issue. But when it comes to my own flesh and blood they may rot in hell for embarrassing me by leaving my church or addressing its hypocrisies and crimes. Ooops, I meant to say they may rot in hell because I put Jesus first in my life and they don't respect my faith. They have broken my heart." (We are faithful churchgoers, btw, just not in their denomination.) You do not need to answer this. Just read it. If there's an option to admit to yourself, and confess to your son, that there was a more inclusive, compassionate, and supportive path you could have taken without turning your back on God, then pray (for as many years as it takes) that you'll eventually humble yourself and take that option. If that's not the case, and your son is angry at you because you have been nothing but righteous and pure as the driven snow, and he wrongly has accused innocent men in your church, then I hope your son will also self-reflect until he sees what is right.
  12. Caedmyn, I apologize. I misinterpreted your survival mode rationalization as agreement. That's not said flippantly. FWIW, I come from a family of origin in which one parent had to accommodate the other's significant mental illness and control issues while raising a large family of children. There was a great deal of rationalization, abuse, and neglect of the children as the parent-who-tried sincerely did their level best. It makes for a lifetime of complexity in the relationship with the children, as they try to sort forgiveness, blame, resentment, despair, forgiveness again...as they rediscover on new levels, at each decade of their adult life, how screwed up their childhood really was. Even with that complexity and damage, I honestly cannot say what my parent should have done differently. I've been turning it around in my mind for over a quarter century and I still don't know. But FWIW, I often think that the rationalization was the worst part. If that parent had somehow been able to hang onto the idea that, "This is NOT right, these children do not have what they need..." it might have helped the children process the situation as adults. I'm not sure what I'm saying here, other than to hope you will not give up trying to make sense of all of this, and don't give up trying to get your children access to others besides yourself in their lives. Especially people who can help with their issues. I'm not sure it's true that a parent can come in and un-enroll children from school and force their mother to homeschool them. I don't know what other price you would personally pay for standing up to that, but the law would not be on his side. Obviously, you would have to be willing to reach out for that legal help and protection. Again, can of worms. My parent didn't; I am very aware of why not. (Edited: Other issues, not regarding homeschooling. We were not homeschooled. We might have starved or died, if we had been homeschooled, or at the very least the next generation of kids would have been screwed, too. We wouldn't have known anything but dysfunction. Because we had access to school, we were able to see that other people live differently...and that made all the difference.)
  13. A small bowl of cereal, if you happen to have Cheerios, GF Chex, or Kix. (We don't all do OK with Cheerios but if you are new to the dx, it's probably fine?)
  14. Great minds (or experienced celiac moms)….
  15. Fruit smoothie or milkshake. Yogurt (read the label, also feel free to ask us whether the brand is OK). Ants on a log - celery, peanut or sunbutter, raisins. (Only if you've got a new jar of PB, or a jar that nobody's put the knife back in, after spreading it on regular bread.) Some brands of rice cakes are OK - with butter and jam, or PB. (Again, research the brand of rice cakes.)
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