Quality of campus life, a windowless dorm room. What do you think?

[Faith-manor]

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/29/business/ucsb-munger-hall/index.html

As someone who has found the older I get the more natural light I crave, I just cannot imagine being willing to subject my collegian to this. I would feel really low about not being able to look out a window, or having a window open in good weather for fresh air. 

I would especially hope something like this does not catch on in the regions east of the Rockies, and north of the Ohio River Valley because low light levels are already a problem for so many folks without then living full time in something like this.

But, I get that it is probably cost efficient, easier to cool/heat, provides more wall space, etc.

[Pawz4me]

I don't think I could tolerate it. I don't think my 18 yo self would have been able to tolerate it easily or happily. I know it would affect my mental health now; I believe it would have then.

I also think only having two entrances/exits for 4500 people sounds like it should be a violation of a fire code.

(Note: I haven't read the CNN article. I'm posting my thoughts based on the article about this that I read yesterday, which was either WaPo or NYT--can't remember which.)

[Faith-manor]

Just now, Pawz4me said:

I don't think I could tolerate it. I don't think my 18 yo self would have been able to tolerate it easily or happily. I know it would affect my mental health now; I believe it would have then.

I also think only having two entrances/exits for 4500 people sounds like it should be a violation of a fire code.

(Note: I haven't read the CNN article. I'm posting my thoughts based on the article about this that I read yesterday, which was either WaPo or NYT--can't remember which.)

I wondered about fire code as well. 

[mommyoffive]

How is this safe in a fire at all????  Don't you have to have 2 exits to every room? 

 

It looks much better than what was in my head.  

[Katy]

Completely unsafe & intolerable.

[Corraleno]

I saw that article and I'm with the architect. It looks like a prison and I think it's a horrible idea — not to mention unsafe (2 exits for 4500 people???). IMO it's a ridiculous ego project for a 97 yr old billionaire who fancies himself an "amateur architect" and who has no idea what it's like to actually live in a dorm. If he were donating the total cost maybe I could see UCSB accepting the donation, but he's only donating 200 million of the 1.5 billion cost, so they are actually subsidizing this man's vanity project.

[Selkie]

I think that would be very depressing. I remember when some relatives of ours stayed in a hotel room with no windows and they said it was so disorienting.

[Splash1]

This would be a hard no for me.  I struggle with SAD anyway and at home I either don't have window coverings or they are usually open, rarely closed.  I need sunlight and ability to look outdoors.  We even moved from PNW to Colorado to help once we had kids.  I don't think any of my kids would be okay with this either.  Just a single dorm with a window last year was a challenge.

 

[catz]

The whole dorm is windowless?  That is just stupid and ridiculous.  

My kid attends a large public university and there are some apartments that have a bedroom without a window, but there are plenty of actual windows in the apartment.  My kid was in an apartment like this last year, his room had a window.  His roomie bought extra lighting, posters, etc.  It's not ideal, but for a student not spending much more time in that room than just sleeping I don't think it was a huge deal for them.  He actually had the largest room so it was a trade off when they were picking rooms.

A whole building where every dorm room is without a window is meh for sure.  I am not totally against tiny rooms and encourage more common space room, but why couldn't they achieve that using actual windows?  There is something to be said about being able to crack a window when your neighbors burn popcorn or smoke pot.

Edited November 1, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[Granny_Weatherwax]

No way. It's too much like a cell. My anxiety would be intolerable fueled with thoughts of fire, natural disaster, etc and not having multiple ways of escape.

[Dmmetler]

It also makes the students 100% dependent on HVAC. My college kid (and many of the others In the dorm) turned off the AC early in the year because it had a tendency to collect water and one of the other students ended up sick due to mold growth, but since the dorm was built in the 1950’s. It has nice big windows, thick walls, and a few fans placed appropriately kept things comfortable even in late summer/Early fall in Georgia. 

[fraidycat]

I would not want my kid living in that! It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Fire, mental health, lack of fresh air when contagious diseases are circulating like... oh I dunno... Covid! Take your pick. Nope, nope, nope!

[prairiewindmomma]

It wouldn’t work for me, but Ds would be willing to do it if the rent was a bargain and they were single occupancy. 

[catz]

Just now, fraidycat said:

I would not want my kid living in that! It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Fire, mental health, lack of fresh air when contagious diseases are circulating like... oh I dunno... Covid! Take your pick. Nope, nope, nope!

Right?!  I especially think this is some weird design choice in the age of covid.  No thanks.  

[SKL]

As far as fire escapes, my experience with dorm living did not include the type of window access that could be a fire escape.  They tended to design windows so nobody could fall/jump out (higher floors) or bust in (lower floors).

I have always put a high value on windows, and never lived in a room without them.  I don't even like that my bathrooms don't have windows.  But maybe there are people who wouldn't mind that.  Also, if there are common areas with windows, it might be possible to design life where you do nothing but sleep and get dressed in the dorm rooms, which might be OK without windows.

[KungFuPanda]

Is this even legal?  I could make a couple small bedrooms in my basement, but they wouldn't be legal bedrooms because the windows are too small.

[Faith-manor]

26 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

I saw that article and I'm with the architect. It looks like a prison and I think it's a horrible idea — not to mention unsafe (2 exits for 4500 people???). IMO it's a ridiculous ego project for a 97 yr old billionaire who fancies himself an "amateur architect" and who has no idea what it's like to actually live in a dorm. If he were donating the total cost maybe I could see UCSB accepting the donation, but he's only donating 200 million of the 1.5 billion cost, so they are actually subsidizing this man's vanity project.

I agree. Ugh.

[Corraleno]

8 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

It wouldn’t work for me, but Ds would be willing to do it if the rent was a bargain and they were single occupancy. 

The cost for a dorm room at UCSB works out to about $1500/month, so definitely not a bargain for a tiny windowless bedroom!

[AngieC]

I don’t love it, but if the goal is to make it affordable then I’m guessing they need a certain density that would not be achievable if they only had rooms around the perimeter.

If I had the choice of that layout and no window or having to share a room, I would choose the windowless room. 

[Faith-manor]

1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

Is this even legal?  I could make a couple small bedrooms in my basement, but they wouldn't be legal bedrooms because the windows are too small.

I know, this really bothers me. We have some fairly strict rules here in Michigan about the number of exits in ratio to population for congregate care, bedrooms have to have two exits (basically a window large enough for an average to larger than average person to get out of even if it means jumping from upper story) plus door, that kind of thing. I am not sure how this can be a thing unless California is less strict than here. (Alabama, where we just bought our retirement home???? OY VEY when it comes to building codes!!!!)

[MEmama]

Just the thought of it makes me panicky.

A few years ago we stayed in an Air B&B apartment in The Hague that didn’t have windows that could open. There was a teeny tiny vent along the top of the window, but it didn’t allow any discernible air in. I was so claustrophobic—despite high ceilings and a large room—and couldn’t sleep at all. I cried much of the night and fought the urge to go wander the streets at night instead of stay in that hell hole (actually it was nice enough, but I *need* fresh air). 
 

Another time DH and I stayed in a hotel in Italy where we couldn’t figure out how to open the window. Our tiny room was at the end of a narrow, winding maze- like corridor in an ancient building so I was already worried about fire, and despite all our attempts we could not figure the window out. In the morning we put together as many phrases from the guidebook (this was pre internet) as we could to the hotel staff— the best we could do was something along the lines of “We have allergies and can you help with our window?”— to which they reluctantly stormed into our room and calmly opened the window while giving us withering looks of disbelief at the stupid Americans. Lol

[Farrar]

There's been such an outcry that I've been curious if UCSB will change course. For the same cost and space, you could presumably just... design something else. Something with windows and enough safe exits from the building. And the money from the crotchety old rich dude is really a small fraction of the total cost. 

[Idalou]

It's sunny, with great weather nearly all year. I think the warmest and foggiest is June or July, when most are probably not on campus.

It's Santa Barbara! I seriously doubt these kids do much in their actual room except sleep and have sex, lol. The common areas have windows, and tiny dorm rooms all over deem that students migrate towards common areas. Maybe they see wonderful sun and feel cool weather so much so that going to a small windowless room to sleep is perfectly doable. It's not like they wake up every day and have to guess whether its raining or snowing or sleeting or 110°. 

$1500 doesnt seem nuts, I think they run $12 or $1300 per month here. I'd guess it fits prices for that area.

I'd have had no problems with it in that particular area. I dont think my dorm had more than 2 exits per building, but its wasn't that large. It would be intersting to see what other large dorms require.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Idalou

[Idalou]

1 hour ago, mommyoffive said:

How is this safe in a fire at all????  Don't you have to have 2 exits to every room? 

 

It looks much better than what was in my head.  

My dorm windows didn't open more than a few inches. Just enough for my hamster to escape and fall out. It lived. I dont know if I would have been able to break the glass if I had to? 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Idalou

[skimomma]

That would be a hard no for me.  My dd is in the process of signing a lease for next year's college housing.  She has run across an apartment complex in which one bedroom, of three total, is windowless in each unit.  I do not understand how this is legal but the building was just completed two years ago so it must be to code.  They are not cheap either so it was off the table for cost reasons alone.  

[ScoutTN]

No how.

[cjzimmer1]

I agree with others that it seems like a few more fire exits would be a good idea.  As far as a windowless room, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest.  We rarely opened the curtain in our dorm room and "I" never open the windows (my roommates did on occasion).  But I get cold super easy and even if it's 90 degrees, any air blowing on me makes me cold so I've always hated open windows, fans and air vents.  I get they are necessary I just wish I didn't have to feel any of them in action.  

Windowless rooms on ships are perfectly acceptable because we don't expect people to be in them much.  I think the same concept apply here.  But I can see for people who want/need to retreat to their space more that a windowless room could be depressing in the long term. It doesn't seem link an unrealistic option to me as long people have a true choice about living there or not.

[rebcoola]

Windowless rooms wouldn't bother me.  We keep ours completely blacked out. 

This seems unsafe though and I don't understand what the advantage of it is supposed to be.

[Amethyst]

Completely against any fire code anywhere! I can't imagine this will be approved. (Although, unfortunately, money talks...)

[YaelAldrich]

Just looking at the recent past - what would be when (not if sadly) students have to isolate again and not be able to congregate in public spaces?

[hippymamato3]

No - for many reasons, but the most concerning is  lack of egress. 

[Arcadia]

My dorm room has sliding windows, four panels and the center two slides open. Our inbuilt L shaped study table is next to the window. It’s relaxing to look out while cramming for exams at night, especially the medical school students. 
UCSB has good weather and good views, I’ll want windows. My teens do not want dorms and they are also the ones that open our patio door wide open. They won’t be happy in a windowless room.

The windows in my alma mater’s complexes are for opening whenever the central air conditioning isn’t working. We had a huge generator blow out in engineering faculty and while a good one was being swapped in, everyone just open windows and doors. 
 

As for providing wall spaces, have the beds or study tables next to the window.    Or have a loft bed (with the study table underneath) in front of the window. 

[Faith-manor]

10 minutes ago, YaelAldrich said:

Just looking at the recent past - what would be when (not if sadly) students have to isolate again and not be able to congregate in public spaces?

This. I was just thinking about last fall when my son's college had about 35 students in the quarantine dorm at any given time. The school marching band and other music groups would come down, spread way out around the building, and play music for them. Some of the clubs who met outside would do so on the lawn around the quarantine dorm so students could listen. They really tried to make those two weeks not seem quite so horrible, and that was dependent on windows for sure.

[Corraleno]

The whole "social experiment" aspect of this — trying to force kids to interact by making the bedrooms tiny windowless cells where no one would want to spend much time — really bothers me. The underlying assumption is that extroversion is normal and to be encouraged while introversion is wrong and must be corrected. Every room opens directly into a common space where people are supposed to congregate. You can't even go to the bathroom without walking through the space where everyone is supposed to be hanging out. What about people who don't get along with their suite mates? What about kids with ADD who need peace and quiet to study, who will have other students right outside their door talking and making noise all the time? What about people with 8:00 AM classes who are trying to sleep at midnight while the kids who don't have to be up until noon are talking loudly or watching videos a few feet away? I'm sure some kids will be fine with it, but I think a lot of kids, especially introverts or kids who really need peace and quiet, are going to feel like rats trapped in a laboratory.

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, Corraleno said:

The cost for a dorm room at UCSB works out to about $1500/month, so definitely not a bargain for a tiny windowless bedroom!

Yeah, it's about that here with no meal plan. It's a tiny bit less than median rent for a studio apartment in that same area, but not by much. Ds would totally live in a Hong Kong style nano flat if the price is right. He's less about lifestyle and more about not graduating with a ton of debt. 

[Faith-manor]

48 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

The whole "social experiment" aspect of this — trying to force kids to interact by making the bedrooms tiny windowless cells where no one would want to spend much time — really bothers me. The underlying assumption is that extroversion is normal and to be encouraged while introversion is wrong and must be corrected. Every room opens directly into a common space where people are supposed to congregate. You can't even go to the bathroom without walking through the space where everyone is supposed to be hanging out. What about people who don't get along with their suite mates? What about kids with ADD who need peace and quiet to study, who will have other students right outside their door talking and making noise all the time? What about people with 8:00 AM classes who are trying to sleep at midnight while the kids who don't have to be up until noon are talking loudly or watching videos a few feet away? I'm sure some kids will be fine with it, but I think a lot of kids, especially introverts or kids who really need peace and quiet, are going to feel like rats trapped in a laboratory.

This experiment was also tried at Illinois Institute of Tech in Chicago. It has been much hated, did not increase social interaction, and if several students we know are accurate in their reports, increased depression and drop out rates on campus.

If they want to have a social experiment for the benefit of the students, it has been proven time and again that investing in green spaces, gardens, light production, fresh air, and outdoor living is the ticket. Beautiful, environmentally advantageous spaces and habitats benefits faculty, staff, and students.

[Terabith]

I would have been fine with small, cozy, private rooms.  And I have a kid who would like it.  But, even if there are extra emergency exits to approve it for fire regulations, the logistics of trying to get 4500 people in and out of two entrances/ exits before and after class seem like a nightmare.  Plus, this does not seem to be the correct direction to go in for pandemic safe housing with good ventilation.  

[sassenach]

It's especially sad because Santa Barbara is so beautiful! Literal beachside heaven and they're going to put these kids in steerage. It also just feels unsafe to have that many people shoved into such a tall building. It's not just the no windows thing, it's also that dorm life is already high density but usually spread out more. IDK. It would be a definite mark against what is otherwise a pretty great school.

[regentrude]

While I understand that getting students to use communal rooms is important, windowless dorm rooms should absolutely not exist.
Many students need quiet and solitude to study or to relax and do that in their rooms- communal spaces are NOT a substitute for that. Not even for extroverts (and I am one- but I do not wish to do my studying or reading in a noisy crowded space. Even extroverts need privacy.

Absolutely insane, and an example for massive donor overreach.

Edited November 1, 2021 by regentrude

[athena1277]

When I was in college, I always felt more meh when we would have several really cloudy days in a row.  No way could I have lived in a windowless dorm.  Even now, I need to have lights on in the house.  Dh, otoh, would have actually loved it.  He used to challenge himself not to see the light of day all weekend.  I think he’s part vampire. 

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, athena1277 said:

When I was in college, I always felt more meh when we would have several really cloudy days in a row.  No way could I have lived in a windowless dorm.  Even now, I need to have lights on in the house.  Dh, otoh, would have actually loved it.  He used to challenge himself not to see the light of day all weekend.  I think he’s part vampire. 

Yeah, my husband can get sunburned walking from a parking lot into a store.  All of us have been known to hiss at the sun.  We are a family that would love night shift life, but it's hard to get the rest of the world on board with that.  I've often wondered if we have a bit of vampire blood in us.  

Edited November 1, 2021 by Terabith

[Lanny]

@Faith-manorI did not read the article you linked to, but I am very sad to know that a university would subject their students to windowless dorm rooms. That's like living in a closet...   IMO it would be very depressing...

My DD has lived in 2 different dorms at UNC.  The second one was built much more recently and has huge windows in the rooms. There is lots of light there and it does make a positive difference for the students who live in that dorm. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by Lanny
correct spelling error

[stephanier.1765]

It would be a no for me too. In addition to all the other reasons, I always studied better on my own. I'm easily distracted by music, chatter, or even people walking by so a dorm like this would have had me failing out the first semester.

[Faith-manor]

34 minutes ago, Terabith said:

Yeah, my husband can get sunburned walking from a parking lot into a store.  All of us have been known to hiss at the sun.  We are a family that would love night shift life, but it's hard to get the rest of the world on board with that.  I've often wondered if we have a bit of vampire blood in us.  

Vampire DNA! I think my eldest ds has that.

[Tanaqui]

Last year I was reading an article about an older NYC DOE building, a high school, which was designed without windows because they're a "distraction" to students. It has skylights. The skylights leak. The students and staff have hated this building for literal decades, and here's some dude in the comments to that article insisting that the real problem is not the lack of windows but the fact that the public was just too stupid to understand the architect's brilliant vision.

To which I say that if your brilliant vision does not include windows then your vision is wrong. People want windows! And that's what the building is for, isn't it? People?

[Idalou]

4 hours ago, Corraleno said:

The whole "social experiment" aspect of this — trying to force kids to interact by making the bedrooms tiny windowless cells where no one would want to spend much time — really bothers me. The underlying assumption is that extroversion is normal and to be encouraged while introversion is wrong and must be corrected. Every room opens directly into a common space where people are supposed to congregate. You can't even go to the bathroom without walking through the space where everyone is supposed to be hanging out. What about people who don't get along with their suite mates? What about kids with ADD who need peace and quiet to study, who will have other students right outside their door talking and making noise all the time? What about people with 8:00 AM classes who are trying to sleep at midnight while the kids who don't have to be up until noon are talking loudly or watching videos a few feet away? I'm sure some kids will be fine with it, but I think a lot of kids, especially introverts or kids who really need peace and quiet, are going to feel like rats trapped in a laboratory.

It seems like you are reading a lot into this re " forcing kids to interact". It happens today in nearly every dorm. Kids dislike their suitemates, they have ADD and need to find quiet areas, kids are loud. Many are outgoing, many not. But yes, common lounge and study areas are great for college age kids. Yes, socializing is important to them, probably s p much more than the amount of introverts that would possibly feel like this dorm was a prison.

Have you been in a dorm lately? There are odd and loud and happy and weird noises going on it pretty much all hours, unless the RA's run a tight ship during quiet hours.

Introverts will always have these needs and issues? Is this the only dorm in campus? Are they all going to be windowless? Maybe they can also make a dorm for kids that have soundproof walls, windows, with no suitemates, private bathrooms( mine has those!) And no common spaces to make them feel uneasy. 

I'll guess that the dorm will fill up, most will feel great, some will hate it and move. 

This is an article to fuel outrage, and I'm guessing some of your have kids that wouldn't enjoy this one bit, so it resonates with you.

Edited November 1, 2021 by Idalou

[Excelsior! Academy]

6 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

It also makes the students 100% dependent on HVAC. My college kid (and many of the others In the dorm) turned off the AC early in the year because it had a tendency to collect water and one of the other students ended up sick due to mold growth, but since the dorm was built in the 1950’s. It has nice big windows, thick walls, and a few fans placed appropriately kept things comfortable even in late summer/Early fall in Georgia. 

Yep!  I can't imagine if the HVAC went out!!  No way to get any ventilation!

6 hours ago, fraidycat said:

I would not want my kid living in that! It sounds like a disaster waiting to happen. Fire, mental health, lack of fresh air when contagious diseases are circulating like... oh I dunno... Covid! Take your pick. Nope, nope, nope!

Yes!  Natural lighting is crucial and access to fresh air is a necessity!

[Corraleno]

41 minutes ago, Idalou said:

It seems like you are reading a lot into this re " forcing kids to interact". It happens today in nearly every dorm. Kids dislike their suitemates, they have ADD and need to find quiet areas, kids are loud. Many are outgoing, many not. But yes, common lounge and study areas are great for college age kids. Yes, socializing is important to them, probably s p much more than the amount of introverts that would possibly feel like this dorm was a prison.

Have you been in a dorm lately? There are odd and loud and happy and weird noises going on it pretty much all hours, unless the RA's run a tight ship during quiet hours.

Introverts will always have these needs and issues? Is this the only dorm in campus? Are they all going to be windowless? Maybe they can also make a dorm for kids that have soundproof walls, windows, with no suitemates, private bathrooms( mine has those!) And no common spaces to make them feel uneasy. 

I'll guess that the dorm will fill up, most will feel great, some will hate it and move. 

This is an article to fuel outrage, and I'm guessing some of your have kids that wouldn't enjoy this one bit, so it resonates with you.

I'm not "reading a lot into this" — this is the explicitly-stated purpose behind designing the dorm this way. The plans were drawn up by a billionaire with no training in architecture, who thinks it will force students to be more interactive. The experienced architect who has been employed by UCSB for many years vigorously protested it and finally resigned his position because he was so appalled that the university is going ahead with it. It's not the article that's "fueling outrage," it's the plan designed by someone with no training or expertise who is being allowed to use students as lab rats to prove his pet theory just because he donated $200 million.

And yes, I've been in multiple dorms at DS's university. In every dorm I visited, the rooms open into a hallway that is separate from the common areas where kids hang out. There was occasionally noise in the hallway, but mostly the hallway was quiet, since it was just used for going to and from the bedrooms. My own dorm way back in the dark ages was the same way. In the UCSB dorm, every room opens into a common space with a table, chairs, and what appears to be a sofa. The noise will not be down the hall in a distant room, it will literally be right on the other side of the bedroom door. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, Idalou said:

It seems like you are reading a lot into this re " forcing kids to interact".

That was the express purpose of the intentional windowless design stated by self-styled "architect" Munger: the rooms should be so unattractive that the kids don't want to spend time in them.

I have lived in Santa Barbara. It's one of the most beautiful places on Earth. Depriving the students of the absolutely gorgeous view which will enhance any, however crappy, building, is inhumane.
I have similar things to say about the local middle school design that has all 6th grade classrooms without windows. In my home country, this would be against any code and not be permitted. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by regentrude

[SKL]

Back to the forced social interaction ....

I kind of understand the point, but as an extreme introvert, this reminds me of an article I saw the other day about zoom meetings:  https://www.wsj.com/articles/how-zoom-fatigue-affects-women-and-new-employees-11635426972

This speaks to me because I really can't stand being looked at.  Having to be in a social setting almost all the time would be super hard for me.  It would make hard things way harder.  And if my only escape were to go hide in a windowless cell, that would not be ideal.

When I lived in the dorm, I liked being able to go into the common area when I was feeling social, but I absolutely could not study there, nor could I feel relaxed there.

I did have a private dorm room.  I don't think I would have thrived with a roommate (at least in the traditional zero-privacy design).

When I moved to a near-campus apartment, which I shared, I used to go to the law library to study.  There I would find a quiet corner cubicle and do my best to ignore everyone and everything.  That said, I was never a great student, because even in a law library, I was very distractable.  The other problem with library studying is that it meant walking home alone in the dark, which is unsafe on many college campuses.