Dh’s Aunt died of covid and warning: unpopular opinion inside

[Frances]

4 minutes ago, klmama said:

This response to death isn't new or just related to COVID.  A friend's dh is a coroner, and he's been in a lot of homes to declare people dead.  PRE-COVID, the overwhelmingly common theme was family members being absolutely shocked that their elderly, ill relatives actually died.  Like somehow, it wasn't going to happen to them.  The thing with COVID is it's become so public and so common.  But the emotional response is the same.  It's just really hard for some people to face that death is real and it's coming for everyone, including them and those they love.  

I think this must vary so much depending on location, background, culture, etc. Growing up in the rural Midwest, attending wakes and visitations was a very normal, regular part of life. The only time I recall people being shocked at death was when it was a younger person’s sudden and unexpected death, such as due to a car or farming accident.

[BlsdMama]

8 hours ago, Robin M said:

I'm so sorry for your loss, Quill. Hugs and prayers winging your way. 

It's not shocking when they ignore all the warnings. My sister and her adult children. Oh we are too healthy, take all our vitamins,, etc. Yep, they got it and my nephew is now home from the hospital after almost not making it, on oxygen still.  Very hard to be sympathetic when they knew the risks.

I don’t understand, “Hard to be sympathetic.” It’s easy to be sympathetic. They believed wrong thinking. It has tragic effects. Easy to be sympathetic. 
 

Compare it to religion. I believe my way is the only true and right way to believe. If I’m right, there will be consequences to that contrary thinking. I don’t think, “Well, they had their opportunity.” Instead? My heart breaks that they were deluded, chose wrongly, and suffer dire consequences. 

Edited October 29, 2021 by BlsdMama

[Guest]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

I don’t understand, “Hard to be sympathetic.” It’s easy to be sympathetic. They believed wrong thinking. It has tragic effects. Easy to be sympathetic. 
 

Compare it to religion. I believe my way is the only true and right way to believe. If I’m right, there will be consequences to that contrary thinking. I don’t think, “Well, they had their opportunity.” Instead? My heart breaks that they were deluded, chose wrongly, and suffer dire consequences. 

For me, it tends to morph into anger. Different people around, living in a different part of the country, different influence - auntie may have been long since vaccinated, probably wouldn’t have caught covid at all, and if she had, probably wouldn’t have been hospitalized. The vaccination rate for people here age in my state is like 95%, but much less in her state. 
 

Like Robin, I find it hard to be sympathetic that she died. I mostly feel anger because it did not have to happen yet and in this awful manner. And, in general, when people say, “so-and-so is in the hospital with covid, please pray” I have a super hard time with that…it reminds me of that joke about the guy who dies in a flood and then asks God why and he says, “Well I sent you a car, a boat and a helicopter…” 

 

When my youngest kid was a baby, I was believing a lot of the anti-vax rhetoric circulating at the time and I was afraid for him to get the DTaP shot because I was scared he would die of SIDS. But two things happened that changed my mind. I won’t bore you with both stories, but one was that I contracted a very severe bronchitis with intense coughing and I went to the doctor, afraid that I had Pertussis. I thought about how it would be if my little baby contracted this horrible cough from me and how I could face it if he died of a *preventable* disease. Well, I did not have Pertussis, but the very same *day* I got a DTaP booster and scheduled him to get caught up. 
 

I wish more people were using logical reasoning with COVID, instead of refusing to see what is around them. I’m so tired of hearing people say they “do their own research” when they do nothing of the sort whatsoever. If they looked at *one* page outta Hopkins or the CDC on who is dying from covid, they should be convinced. 

[Katy]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

For me, it tends to morph into anger. Different people around, living in a different part of the country, different influence - auntie may have been long since vaccinated, probably wouldn’t have caught covid at all, and if she had, probably wouldn’t have been hospitalized. The vaccination rate for people here age in my state is like 95%, but much less in her state. 
 

Like Robin, I find it hard to be sympathetic that she died. I mostly feel anger because it did not have to happen yet and in this awful manner. And, in general, when people say, “so-and-so is in the hospital with covid, please pray” I have a super hard time with that…it reminds me of that joke about the guy who dies in a flood and then asks God why and he says, “Well I sent you a car, a boat and a helicopter…” 

 

When my youngest kid was a baby, I was believing a lot of the anti-vax rhetoric circulating at the time and I was afraid for him to get the DTaP shot because I was scared he would die of SIDS. But two things happened that changed my mind. I won’t bore you with both stories, but one was that I contracted a very severe bronchitis with intense coughing and I went to the doctor, afraid that I had Pertussis. I thought about how it would be if my little baby contracted this horrible cough from me and how I could face it if he died of a *preventable* disease. Well, I did not have Pertussis, but the very same *day* I got a DTaP booster and scheduled him to get caught up. 
 

I wish more people were using logical reasoning with COVID, instead of refusing to see what is around them. I’m so tired of hearing people say they “do their own research” when they do nothing of the sort whatsoever. If they looked at *one* page outta Hopkins or the CDC on who is dying from covid, they should be convinced. 

I’m more angry that downplaying this pandemic was used as a political tool. If it had been handled the opposite way, “Put politics aside, make sacrifices, take it seriously, get vaccinated.”  We’d have hundreds of thousands less deaths. 

[ktgrok]

12 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Death of an otherwise healthy person is shocking no matter the age.

Well, yeah, but not when they are unvaccinated and contract a disease we know to be very deadly to the elderly. 

 

[Laura Corin]

19 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Well, yeah, but not when they are unvaccinated and contract a disease we know to be very deadly to the elderly. 

 

I'd separate shocking and surprising.  The death of an elderly unvaccinated person is not surprising but it could still be shocking.

[kokotg]

I know someone in their 40s who died (unvaccinated) of covid recently, leaving behind two teenaged kids. All the comments on facebook were about how they just didn't understand why God decided it was their time. I was like, "I can't believe y'all are trying to pin this on God." 

[CTVKath]

I'm sorry for your loss. And I agree with you 100%.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I'm so sorry for your loss. I, too, wouldn't have considered it shocking. A terrible loss but not a shock.

[TCB]

13 hours ago, busymama7 said:

I have a mom friend who lost her husband this summer to covid, leaving two high school age kids and spent time in the hospital herself due to it.  She is still completely against the vaccine and won't even consider getting it at some point down the road when her "natural" immunity wears off.   She is convinced that the immunity will last years because it did for the original SARS (?is that the right acronym) virus. She can't be convinced otherwise although I didn't try much because I was trying to be gentle and compassionate because she just lost her husband. She brought up the vaccine not me but I didn't argue just stated that there are lots of people who have gotten it more than once already.   It makes me crazy. 

I think sometimes, when people who are against the Covid vaccine lose a loved one from Covid, they just double down harder against it. My theory is that it would be too painful for them to admit to themselves they were wrong and that that error may have resulted in their terrible loss, so they become almost more against it. We have seen this with a number of our patients’ families.

[Janeway]

21 hours ago, Quill said:

I mentioned recently that she was hospitalized; she was 80+ years old. She was not vaccinated and neither were her (adult) children, who got covid as well. 
 

Of course they are all devastated, which is understandable. But the word I’ve heard in several separate covid death instances recently, that is rubbing me the wrong way is this: “shocked.” As in, “We are shocked by her death.” 
 

UNPOPULAR OPINION: 

When an 80+ year old, unvaccinated woman is hospitalized for COVID, it is *terribly sad,* but NOT shocking when she dies. I feel like this is due to the “COVID is no big deal” rhetoric and, when these poor family members experience this terrible outcome, it is “shocking” only because they have been believing the “no big deal” rhetoric. Literally was talking to dh about auntie last night and he was saying, “Well, she’s pretty healthy in general.” I’m like, Dude, the handwriting is on the wall…the *most likely* outcome is that she’s not gonna make it. He said, “Well 99% of people recover…” and I said, “Not when they’re 80 years old.” 
 

Anyway…it’s a sad situation and was almost certainly avoidable. I just wish a bunch of people would get this through their heads without burying relatives to learn it. 

It is fine to have your opinion, and I am not offended by it at all. I know all sorts of statistics have been tossed around surrounding the value of vaccinations. BUT, every single person I know of with Covid right now who was vaccinated. I have also known unvaccinated people with Covid, but they all had such minor symptoms. The only two people I knew who died of Covid were vaccinated. However, correlation does not mean causation. 

It was the 80 yr olds body, her body, her choice. I had someone close to me have an abortion. I still feel the pain from the death of that child. And the mom of that child also feels it. That was my sister. And when I had a baby after her baby died, it devastated her. Our relationship was never the same. She can barely stand to be around my child who is close in age to her child that died. Then when her daughter got pregnant and miscarried, she was over the top devastated. It hit her extra hard because of her past of aborting her own baby. Abortion is the topic we are not supposed to talk about, unless we say good things about it. Abortion is supposed to be acceptable and allowable because "her body, her choice." But the death rate from abortion far exceeds the death rate from Covid from unvaccinated people (you would have to subtract the vaccinated people deaths because a portion of the unvaccinated people dying from it would have died anyway, so you need to account for that). Why can society accept something as horrific and direct and violent as abortion, but then attack people who want control over their body when it comes to which chemicals to ingest? Also, most abortions happen because someone else in the woman's life wants her to abort. Women know how babies are made. It is when others find out she is pregnant that she aborts. 

And then we can move on to the thing about tobacco. Every time someone smokes in a place where I have to breathe it in, I suffer. My parents were smokers. We have more deaths every year resulting from cigarette smoking than from Covid. Why is this not a huge topic of conversation? Teenagers have taken up smoking again. Despite the huge decline in numbers of people smoking, it still kills way too many people every year. Why is this not illegal? 

When I hear people get angry about those who did not vaccinate for Covid, I think about how that is nothing more than a political thing, ignited by an election happening at the same time the vaccination was put out. The same people who rant about Covid vaccinations continue to ignore bigger threats to people. This is because the media has chosen to grab on to this topic for political and sales reasons and so have politicians. 

For the record, I did get vaccinated. I also got my booster in August. I was one of the first to be vaccinated as I completed my shots in January. And then I had a booster in August. But this is my body, my choice. And I 100% the right of anyone else and everyone else to make whatever choice they want. 

[Janeway]

1 minute ago, TCB said:

I think sometimes, when people who are against the Covid vaccine lose a loved one from Covid, they just double down harder against it. My theory is that it would be too painful for them to admit to themselves they were wrong and that that error may have resulted in their terrible loss, so they become almost more against it. We have seen this with a number of our patients’ families.

Sometimes, they just think the shot would not have mattered.

[TCB]

6 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I don’t understand, “Hard to be sympathetic.” It’s easy to be sympathetic. They believed wrong thinking. It has tragic effects. Easy to be sympathetic. 
 

Compare it to religion. I believe my way is the only true and right way to believe. If I’m right, there will be consequences to that contrary thinking. I don’t think, “Well, they had their opportunity.” Instead? My heart breaks that they were deluded, chose wrongly, and suffer dire consequences. 

I think the frustration comes from the fact that some people have been very vocal and unkind in spreading wrong ideas, and then, even when the error becomes apparent, there is absolutely no acknowledgement that they got it wrong, and they continue to push the false information. The frustration is that it can be a matter of life and death for those around them, not just themselves. 

[TCB]

5 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Sometimes, they just think the shot would not have mattered.

And that is a tragedy too, that the message about the protective effects has not reached them effectively.

[chiguirre]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

For me, it tends to morph into anger.

I found that reading the Herman Cain Award subreddit that @sassenachposted about helped me deal with my anger. I know that's paradoxical. It obviously started as an anger-laced schadenfreude buffet, but its impact is deeper than that. The first couple of stories I read made me angry, the next hundred just made me appreciate the depth of the tragedy we're living through. In a very shallow way, it allows regular joes to experience what Covid focused healthcare workers have gone through these last 4 months. You see someone completely immersed in their facebook bubble posting frankly offensive memes and then comes the "I'm positive" post. Then there's the "Covid is no joke" post. Then the "I'm in the ER" post. Then the "Please pray, if I don't improve I'll be intubated". Then someone else picks up with "Please pray for XXX, they're in the ICU." Then the "Gofundme for medical expenses and regular bills since they're not working." Then the "Angel wings." Over and over and over again, the same thing. You get over your anger pretty fast and just realize the enormity of the crisis we're living through. This won't improve your mood but it will put things in perspective and make you grateful that you and yours are safe (if they are, if you have unvaccinated loved ones, the Herman Cain Awards would be terrifying.)

[MEmama]

7 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

I found that reading the Herman Cain Award subreddit that @sassenachposted about helped me deal with my anger. I know that's paradoxical. It obviously started as an anger-laced schadenfreude buffet, but its impact is deeper than that. The first couple of stories I read made me angry, the next hundred just made me appreciate the depth of the tragedy we're living through. In a very shallow way, it allows regular joes to experience what Covid focused healthcare workers have gone through these last 4 months. You see someone completely immersed in their facebook bubble posting frankly offensive memes and then comes the "I'm positive" post. Then there's the "Covid is no joke" post. Then the "I'm in the ER" post. Then the "Please pray, if I don't improve I'll be intubated". Then someone else picks up with "Please pray for XXX, they're in the ICU." Then the "Gofundme for medical expenses and regular bills since they're not working." Then the "Angel wings." Over and over and over again, the same thing. You get over your anger pretty fast and just realize the enormity of the crisis we're living through. This won't improve your mood but it will put things in perspective and make you grateful that you and yours are safe (if they are, if you have unvaccinated loved ones, the Herman Cain Awards would be terrifying.)

I can only handle so much of that subreddit. Same with the Leopards Ate My Face. The stories are needlessly tragic and unending, and the people who need the convincing aren’t reading them.

Instead they keep insisting we are supposed to be nicer to them, to have only conservatives talk about it (that’s been said with a presumably straight face on this board), to just let them do them. That they are “doing their research”. And we know the consequences, we watch it play out and ugh….I'm feeling disheartened today. 

[SKL]

11 hours ago, klmama said:

This response to death isn't new or just related to COVID.  A friend's dh is a coroner, and he's been in a lot of homes to declare people dead.  PRE-COVID, the overwhelmingly common theme was family members being absolutely shocked that their elderly, ill relatives actually died.  Like somehow, it wasn't going to happen to them.  The thing with COVID is it's become so public and so common.  But the emotional response is the same.  It's just really hard for some people to face that death is real and it's coming for everyone, including them and those they love.  

This is what I'm thinking too.  I guess it depends on what you mean by "shocked."

[Jean in Newcastle]

3 hours ago, ktgrok said:

Well, yeah, but not when they are unvaccinated and contract a disease we know to be very deadly to the elderly. 

 

I was responding to a very specific post that said that once you hit 80 it's "normal" for you to die.  Yes, people die at that age.  People die in their 70's and before as well.  It's why there is an AVERAGE death age of 77 (used to be 78 before Covid) in this country.  But people don't have to just die of anything once they hit those ages.  They can still take care of themselves.  They can still prevent some disease. 

(Now my mom just died last month of . . . nothing.  She was 96, healthy and her body just started to shut down.  Some people might have that happen at an earlier age.  But she didn't die of medical neglect - which is really what it is when people don't vaccinate for preventable disease.)

What I think when someone dies from something preventable?  "What a waste".  It's a tragedy that they made choices and lost the big gamble.  I feel the same way about younger people who made a gamble and lost against long Covid.  Now I hope that they will recover.  But 30 plus years of chronic pain and illness has made me less blaze (how do you do that little symbol over the e to make it French?) about "oh they will bounce right back.  I realize that there are some people out there that have also died after the vaccines (some as a direct cause from it) or have had their version of "long Covid" but my guess is that these same people might have been at increased risk of death or serious long-term consequences from Covid itself though I don't know how you would test such a hypothesis.

[Spryte]

28 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

I found that reading the Herman Cain Award subreddit that @sassenachposted about helped me deal with my anger. I know that's paradoxical. It obviously started as an anger-laced schadenfreude buffet, but its impact is deeper than that. The first couple of stories I read made me angry, the next hundred just made me appreciate the depth of the tragedy we're living through. In a very shallow way, it allows regular joes to experience what Covid focused healthcare workers have gone through these last 4 months. You see someone completely immersed in their facebook bubble posting frankly offensive memes and then comes the "I'm positive" post. Then there's the "Covid is no joke" post. Then the "I'm in the ER" post. Then the "Please pray, if I don't improve I'll be intubated". Then someone else picks up with "Please pray for XXX, they're in the ICU." Then the "Gofundme for medical expenses and regular bills since they're not working." Then the "Angel wings." Over and over and over again, the same thing. You get over your anger pretty fast and just realize the enormity of the crisis we're living through. This won't improve your mood but it will put things in perspective and make you grateful that you and yours are safe (if they are, if you have unvaccinated loved ones, the Herman Cain Awards would be terrifying.)

Good summary of the progression of posts. So true. That’s how it plays out here, too. I did get the “Delta is real” text as well. As if they thought it wasn’t? 
 

My anger faded completely when our old friends both nearly died, the DH  twice. Our friendship had cooled because the DH is a vocal anti masker and was clearly angry at us, but we are talking long term friendship. Once they both left by ambulance, all of my hurt over his misplaced anger at us just disappeared. He might have been an a@&Hat these past almost two years, but I love those kids, and his wife and I were still friends. I snapped into action and helped as much as we could, giving hours and hours of time and work. I think it’s possible that the DH is … surprised. Which makes me sad. It speaks to his character more than mine, I think, that he thinks I would continue his stupid feud over this. He is a FB addict, if there ever was one, and we watched him becoming more and more divisive and, frankly, radicalized.

That’s how my anger shifted. It had to be personal.

[bibiche]

@Jean in Newcastle On an iPad or phone you just hold the letter down and other choices appear. Or add languages on the keyboard setting. For a computer keyboard, here’s a key: https://usefulshortcuts.com/alt-codes/accents-alt-codes.php

And I’m sorry about your mom. 💕

[kbutton]

7 hours ago, Quill said:

Like Robin, I find it hard to be sympathetic that she died. I mostly feel anger because it did not have to happen yet and in this awful manner. And, in general, when people say, “so-and-so is in the hospital with covid, please pray” I have a super hard time with that…it reminds me of that joke about the guy who dies in a flood and then asks God why and he says, “Well I sent you a car, a boat and a helicopter…” 

It's not that I don't feel sympathetic, but it's all mixed up in the anger and frustration. This joke illustrates the exasperation I feel watching.

2 hours ago, MEmama said:

Instead they keep insisting we are supposed to be nicer to them, to have only conservatives talk about it (that’s been said with a presumably straight face on this board), to just let them do them. That they are “doing their research”. And we know the consequences, we watch it play out and ugh….I'm feeling disheartened today. 

I don't have a problem being nice to people who are ill, but I don't think that I have to be nice about their poor choices before they become ill. Those are two different things. Once someone is sick, it's not the time to rub salt in the wound, but I do not have to say nice things about their choices before that.

1 hour ago, Spryte said:

That’s how my anger shifted. It had to be personal.

With long friendships or family, I've just kind of ignored a LOT. We've lost fairly careful people before a vaccine was out (a couple who weren't), and we lost someone that didn't vaccinate (and I think was more careful than most), and I don't feel a need to throw stones. I do wish I could grab people by the hair and tell them to stop playing with death in front of my face, but once they are sick, that's it. They are suffering the logical consequences, and if they don't learn from that, no amount of shake, rattle, and roll from me is going to make a difference. 

I do very much resent having to watch this play out. I think it's unconscionable that people are making us watch them die, but that also happens with addiction and many other things, just more in slow motion and not on this scale. 

[Guest]

@Janeway You’re certainly entitle to your different opinion. Quickly, though:

1) Abortion - abortion is not the same because nobody gets pregnant from standing near someone who is pregnant and is doing nothing to prevent their own pregnancy. 
2) Smoking - I don’t know where you live that smoking and subjecting people to second hand smoke is not a “huge discussion” or hasn’t been in the past couple decades. Where I live it is so rare to see someone smoking in public it almost surprises me when I see it. It’s like I forgot people smoke at all. As for the first-hand smoker: it’s not illegal *because* people have fought for the “right” to knowingly choose to destroy their own lungs. And I’m old enough to remember how people fought to be permitted to smoke in bars and restaurants and poo-pooed studies about second hand smoke. 
 

 

[Condessa]

17 hours ago, Quill said:

This is where it’s really difficult for me to understand. 
We had a client in the firm who was wearing a mask; I said she was welcome to wear it if she wished but we are all vaccinated so it’s optional. She said she is not vaxxed herself and would keep it on. Her mom died of COVID; that’s why she was at the firm in the first place; stuff to do with the estate. That’s just really nuts to me. 

This doesn’t sound like a person who doesn’t care about COVID risk.  Maybe there’s a medical contraindication for the vaccine for her.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Condessa

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, Condessa said:

This doesn’t sound like a person who doesn’t care about COVID risk.  Maybe there’s a medical contraindication for the vaccine for her.

🤷🏻‍♀️ Maybe. 

[Pam in CT]

re similarities to watching folks struggling with addiction

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

It's not that I don't feel sympathetic, but it's all mixed up in the anger and frustration. This joke illustrates the exasperation I feel watching...

..I do very much resent having to watch this play out. I think it's unconscionable that people are making us watch them die, but that also happens with addiction and many other things, just more in slow motion and not on this scale. 

Thanks for that insight.  Yes, that *is* what it feels like to me.  Frustration and sadness mostly, with a portion of not-helpful anger and another portion of sinking helplessness.

[Robin M]

12 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

I don’t understand, “Hard to be sympathetic.” It’s easy to be sympathetic. They believed wrong thinking. It has tragic effects. Easy to be sympathetic. 
 

Compare it to religion. I believe my way is the only true and right way to believe. If I’m right, there will be consequences to that contrary thinking. I don’t think, “Well, they had their opportunity.” Instead? My heart breaks that they were deluded, chose wrongly, and suffer dire consequences. 

 

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

It's not that I don't feel sympathetic, but it's all mixed up in the anger and frustration. This joke illustrates the exasperation I feel watching.

I don't have a problem being nice to people who are ill, but I don't think that I have to be nice about their poor choices before they become ill. Those are two different things. Once someone is sick, it's not the time to rub salt in the wound, but I do not have to say nice things about their choices before that.

With long friendships or family, I've just kind of ignored a LOT. We've lost fairly careful people before a vaccine was out (a couple who weren't), and we lost someone that didn't vaccinate (and I think was more careful than most), and I don't feel a need to throw stones. I do wish I could grab people by the hair and tell them to stop playing with death in front of my face, but once they are sick, that's it. They are suffering the logical consequences, and if they don't learn from that, no amount of shake, rattle, and roll from me is going to make a difference. 

I do very much resent having to watch this play out. I think it's unconscionable that people are making us watch them die, but that also happens with addiction and many other things, just more in slow motion and not on this scale. 

 I agree with everything KL said and applies to it's not hard to be sympathetic. My sister is super logical and has a strong relationship with God, and yes, thinks she knows it all so there's no telling her any different. So the joke where he say "Well I sent you a car, a boat and a helicopter…”  applies to her. She didn't listen, she chose to go down the rabbit hole and ignore all.  We all refrained from telling her I told you so, and she didn't understand it, when my brother said to her husband, I thought K was smarter than that.   Why, because she never, never, never gets sick so how could it happen to her.  

Edited October 29, 2021 by Robin M

[JennyD]

2 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I am furious with people in power who use this issue as a means of getting clicks and votes when they are vaccinated themselves and know how dangerous COVID is.

I too reserve my seething anger for these people.  I don't believe in hell but sometimes I wish I did.

 

[Starr]

15 hours ago, JennyD said:

  18 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I am furious with people in power who use this issue as a means of getting clicks and votes when they are vaccinated themselves and know how dangerous COVID is.

And have easy access to the best medical care.

[Janeway]

19 hours ago, Quill said:

@Janeway You’re certainly entitle to your different opinion. Quickly, though:

1) Abortion - abortion is not the same because nobody gets pregnant from standing near someone who is pregnant and is doing nothing to prevent their own pregnancy. 

Pregnancy actually does happen from two people getting too close to each other without protection. And abortion, 100% of the time, ends in at least one person dying.

2) Smoking - I don’t know where you live that smoking and subjecting people to second hand smoke is not a “huge discussion” or hasn’t been in the past couple decades. Where I live it is so rare to see someone smoking in public it almost surprises me when I see it. It’s like I forgot people smoke at all. As for the first-hand smoker: it’s not illegal *because* people have fought for the “right” to knowingly choose to destroy their own lungs. And I’m old enough to remember how people fought to be permitted to smoke in bars and restaurants and poo-pooed studies about second hand smoke. 

Not only has there been a spike in teens smoking in recent years, and vaping, but many many people still carry health problems from second hand smoke in years past. I remember my parents being angry and indignant when smoking was banned on airplanes and such. They felt they had the right. Then, later, they had much higher medical bills. Both had huge medical bills and Mom ended up disabled from smoking. I have lung damage and my older sister had a brain aneurysm at 30 yrs old, something that is pretty much never seen in non-smokers at that age. She did not smoke but was exposed to second hand smoke all those years. The smoking caused incredible damage to all of us, way beyond what I am even talking about here. Yet, I will go in public and find people smoking in front of a building and have to put on a mask to be inside? Nope. No one set rules for our health that is still making smoking legal. They might as well pass around Covid lollipops. The big tobaccos spent a lot of money in congress getting everything they wanted, including during the tobacco trials in the 80's. Pharmaceuticals spend even more. That is why people do not trust them. And the government definitely cannot be trusted to be concerned with the health or wellbeing of anyone.
 

 

 

[TravelingChris]

22 hours ago, TCB said:

I think the frustration comes from the fact that some people have been very vocal and unkind in spreading wrong ideas, and then, even when the error becomes apparent, there is absolutely no acknowledgement that they got it wrong, and they continue to push the false information. The frustration is that it can be a matter of life and death for those around them, not just themselves. 

ANd not only people.  Foreign Enemy countries too.  Several studies and reports last spring and in early-mid summer were about how 10 posters are responsible for the great majority of misinformation and also how foreign actors have seized upon the divide and the mistrust and are also pushing anti- vaccine narratives here through all sorts of ways.

[TravelingChris]

19 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

I'm not angry at people who poor choices. I'm frustrated but not angry. People are doing what their group does so there isn't as much individual choice as people suggest. 

I am furious with people in power who use this issue as a means of getting clicks and votes when they are vaccinated themselves and know how dangerous COVID is. Those people have blood on their hands. Rupert Murdock is fully vaccinated. Fox has a vaccine mandate. But they stoke anti-vax sentiment. People have died because they spread misinformation while they are fully vaccinated. 

Facebook also bears responsibility. You can tell from the HCA subreddit that Facebook played a huge part in the misinformation campaign. FB knew they had a problem and did not nothing about it. 

First of all, most people at FOX are openly pro-vaccine and state it.    Secondly, Robert Murdoch is not in charge of FOX News.  Thirdly, lots of the more anti vaccine people have moved on to other media. 

[Guest]

@Janeway, my point is that you don’t *catch* pregnancy from a pregnant person, which is what happens with contagious diseases such as COVID. Nobody just picks up a pregnancy at church. And, as you say, it takes TWO people “getting close” to each other, so why are you putting it all on *the woman* who gets pregnant? If ZERO men put their seed, so to speak, where a baby can grow, ZERO women would be unintentionally pregnant. 
 

Re: smoking. Your argument makes no sense. You’re railing against smoking being legal and saying how much you and your family has suffered because of smoking while *ignoring* that it is because of people who DO support mandates against smokers smoking wherever they damn well please who have cut down the number of kids growing up constantly exposed to second hand smoke. But do you really think the govt could even begin to make a law that people can’t even smoke in their homes if they have children? Because BWAHHAHAHAHA to that. 
 

In my state, policies more favored by Democrats are better supported and, although we have a Republican Governor (for now), this state has had all the COVID supports expected from Dem-dominant states, from mandatory masks, to mandatory vaccination for certain workers. As I have said for the past year and a half, I’m SO GLAD I live here and not in some *other* states where the dumb-ass Governors try to implement idiotic rules like “schools can’t require masks of student” and “vaccinating against a contagious disease cannot be mandatory.” For once, I think my high cost of living and absurd taxes are finally, FINALLY worth it because our state has very high compliance and our hospitals are not stuffed with people dying on a gurney in the hallway because the rooms are full of dying unvaccinated covid patients. 
 

And also, public smoking is banned practically everywhere in this state, thank the gods. I am virtually never exposed to other people’s smoking. 

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, Janeway said:

Yet, I will go in public and find people smoking in front of a building and have to put on a mask to be inside? Nope. No one set rules for our health that is still making smoking legal. They might as well pass around Covid lollipops. The big tobaccos spent a lot of money in congress getting everything they wanted, including during the tobacco trials in the 80's. Pharmaceuticals spend even more. That is why people do not trust them. And the government definitely cannot be trusted to be concerned with the health or wellbeing of anyone.

Smoking isn't illegal for the same reason that eating junk food, not exercising, drinking excessively (in your own home), being morbidly obese, ignoring hypertension, etc., are not illegal — you have the right to damage your own health. You do not have the right to damage other people's health through your behavior. Smoking is banned in exactly the same places where masking is required: enclosed public spaces where other people can breathe in what you breathe out. Smoking is allowed in exactly the same places that masks are not required: in private homes and outside away from people. Insisting that unless the government makes it illegal to smoke in private then it's hypocritical for them to require masks in the exact same public places that smoking is also banned, makes no sense.

[Janeway]

10 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

Smoking isn't illegal for the same reason that eating junk food, not exercising, drinking excessively (in your own home), being morbidly obese, ignoring hypertension, etc., are not illegal — you have the right to damage your own health. You do not have the right to damage other people's health through your behavior. Smoking is banned in exactly the same places where masking is required: enclosed public spaces where other people can breathe in what you breathe out. Smoking is allowed in exactly the same places that masks are not required: in private homes and outside away from people. Insisting that unless the government makes it illegal to smoke in private then it's hypocritical for them to require masks in the exact same public places that smoking is also banned, makes no sense.

Not here. I have walked up to businesses and had to deal with smoke in my face and try to put a face on at the same time because I am entering the business. Also, in most of this country, smoking is not banned around children. It should be considered child abuse and children should be removed from homes where it goes on if the parents do it around the children. But it is not. That affects those children, who are people too and matter too.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Janeway

[Corraleno]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

As I have said for the past year and a half, I’m SO GLAD I live here and not in some *other* states where the dumb-ass Governors try to implement idiotic rules like “schools can’t require masks of student” and “vaccinating against a contagious disease cannot be mandatory.” For once, I think my high cost of living and absurd taxes are finally, FINALLY worth it because our state has very high compliance and our hospitals are not stuffed with people dying on a gurney in the hallway because the rooms are full of dying unvaccinated covid patients. 

Same here. We have had a state-wide mask mandate since the pandemic began (except for a few weeks when vaxed people were exempt, before the mandate was reinstated for everyone). Compliance in my county is close to 100%, and 80% of eligible (12+) are fully vaxed. The per capita death rate for the US as a whole is about 1 in 500, and in most of the south it's more like 1 in 300. The death rate in my heavily masked and highly vaxed county is 1 in 1,840. Really glad I live in a place where people care about others and aren't easily taken in by lies and misinformation.

[PeterPan]

26 minutes ago, Janeway said:

I have walked up to businesses and had to deal with smoke in my face and try to put a face on at the same time because I am entering the business.

You could write your state legislators and try to get a law passed. We have a 50' law in our state where people cannot smoke within 50' of the entrance of a public building. Some people still smoke too close, but it does help.

[MEmama]

34 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

First, the most watched show on Fox is Tucker Carlson who shares vaccine misinformation on his show and refuses to admit that he's vaccinated. There are stories of unvaxxed people who died whose relatives say that they were influenced by Carlson's show. Second, Murdoch owns Fox. If he wanted it to have a different tone, it would. Third, that's good but not enough as long as Carlson continues spreading misinformation on his show. 

 

Right. And of those people who have moved away from fox I’m guessing a large percentage have moved to channels that push conspiracies and division even further. 

[kiwik]

On 10/30/2021 at 4:00 AM, Janeway said:

It is fine to have your opinion, and I am not offended by it at all. I know all sorts of statistics have been tossed around surrounding the value of vaccinations. BUT, every single person I know of with Covid right now who was vaccinated. I have also known unvaccinated people with Covid, but they all had such minor symptoms. The only two people I knew who died of Covid were vaccinated. However, correlation does not mean causation. 

It was the 80 yr olds body, her body, her choice. I had someone close to me have an abortion. I still feel the pain from the death of that child. And the mom of that child also feels it. That was my sister. And when I had a baby after her baby died, it devastated her. Our relationship was never the same. She can barely stand to be around my child who is close in age to her child that died. Then when her daughter got pregnant and miscarried, she was over the top devastated. It hit her extra hard because of her past of aborting her own baby. Abortion is the topic we are not supposed to talk about, unless we say good things about it. Abortion is supposed to be acceptable and allowable because "her body, her choice." But the death rate from abortion far exceeds the death rate from Covid from unvaccinated people (you would have to subtract the vaccinated people deaths because a portion of the unvaccinated people dying from it would have died anyway, so you need to account for that). Why can society accept something as horrific and direct and violent as abortion, but then attack people who want control over their body when it comes to which chemicals to ingest? Also, most abortions happen because someone else in the woman's life wants her to abort. Women know how babies are made. It is when others find out she is pregnant that she aborts. 

And then we can move on to the thing about tobacco. Every time someone smokes in a place where I have to breathe it in, I suffer. My parents were smokers. We have more deaths every year resulting from cigarette smoking than from Covid. Why is this not a huge topic of conversation? Teenagers have taken up smoking again. Despite the huge decline in numbers of people smoking, it still kills way too many people every year. Why is this not illegal? 

When I hear people get angry about those who did not vaccinate for Covid, I think about how that is nothing more than a political thing, ignited by an election happening at the same time the vaccination was put out. The same people who rant about Covid vaccinations continue to ignore bigger threats to people. This is because the media has chosen to grab on to this topic for political and sales reasons and so have politicians. 

For the record, I did get vaccinated. I also got my booster in August. I was one of the first to be vaccinated as I completed my shots in January. And then I had a booster in August. But this is my body, my choice. And I 100% the right of anyone else and everyone else to make whatever choice they want. 

If you live in a state where 95% are vaccinated you would expect 5 to 10% of those to still contract Covid usually in a milder form.    10% of 95% is a bigger number than 100% of 5%.  The more people who are vaccinated the more vaccinated people will get sick.  If I'd just statistics.  If there were 1000 kids in a school and 950 were vaccinated 10% of that would be 95 students which is more than the 50 vaccinated.  Even 5% would be about 47.

Edited October 30, 2021 by kiwik

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, kiwik said:

If you live in a state where 95% are vaccinated you would expect 5 to 10% of those to still contract Covid usually in a milder form.    10% of 95% is a bigger number than 100% of 5%.  The more people who are vaccinated the more vaccinated people will get sick.  If I'd just statistics.  If there were 1000 kids in a school and 950 were vaccinated 10% of that would be 95 students which is more than the 50 vaccinated.  Even 5% would be about 47.

But that’s not science. More vaccinated people will eventually mean less Covid being transmitted. Less transmission will affect the numbers more than a simple statistical analysis. 

[MerryAtHope]

On 10/28/2021 at 4:06 PM, Faith-manor said:

I am so sorry, Quill!

And I absolutely understand. People around here have this same attitude. It makes me want to smack 'em up back of the head while saying, "Duh!" but of course I am civilized and don't. I just think it!

Nearly 750,000 gone, probably another 2 million with long covid, and parents out of the workforce because, like my area, schools are constantly shutting down because of covid outbreaks and the idiots cannot figure out why no-one is standing in line to drive trucks, and work at the hardware store, or make their tacos, except "lazy on unemployment"! Rational thought is now so rare it is apparently a superpower!

I hadn’t kept up on stats for long Covid, so I googled. This article from August says 11.1 million Americans have long Covid! https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/patient-safety-outcomes/estimates-of-americans-with-long-covid-19-per-state.html

Edited October 31, 2021 by MerryAtHope

[Tanaqui]

Wow, Janeway. I know we all have our pet topics, but sometimes it's just not appropriate to drag everything around to them. Can we talk about vaccinations and covid without making weird comparisons to abortion? Which is a huge *stretch*, by the way, as far as analogies go.

[Guest]

13 hours ago, MerryAtHope said:

I hadn’t kept up on stats for long Covid, so I googled. This article from August says 11.1 million Americans have long Covid! https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/patient-safety-outcomes/estimates-of-americans-with-long-covid-19-per-state.html

Thank you for sharing this, however - and I’m no statistician - but this seems quite overstated. This method also seems unreliable: 

The AAPM&R has developed a dashboard estimating long COVID-19 infections. The model assumes that 30 percent of people who recover from acute COVID-19 develop long COVID-19, but users can adjust estimates based on higher or lower percentages. 

So they are estimating based on certain assumptions that may be faulty. Also, what are they including? Because, for example, I know several people who have not regained their sense of smell a few months later, but I would not call them victims of long covid. 
 

Finally, I’m going with anecdote here, but I don’t know anyone, nor any friend-of-friend people who have serious long covid symptoms. I know there are a few members on this board who do and I’m not saying I doubt they exist, but if it’s 11 million Americans, I should know a few at least. 
 

Im just saying…I think this article overstates the case. And I feel that *even though* I am 100% pro-vaccine and want to subdue this damn virus as soon as possible. 

[Happy2BaMom]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Thank you for sharing this, however - and I’m no statistician - but this seems quite overstated. This method also seems unreliable: 

The AAPM&R has developed a dashboard estimating long COVID-19 infections. The model assumes that 30 percent of people who recover from acute COVID-19 develop long COVID-19, but users can adjust estimates based on higher or lower percentages. 

So they are estimating based on certain assumptions that may be faulty. Also, what are they including? Because, for example, I know several people who have not regained their sense of smell a few months later, but I would not call them victims of long covid. 
 

Finally, I’m going with anecdote here, but I don’t know anyone, nor any friend-of-friend people who have serious long covid symptoms. I know there are a few members on this board who do and I’m not saying I doubt they exist, but if it’s 11 million Americans, I should know a few at least. 
 

Im just saying…I think this article overstates the case. And I feel that *even though* I am 100% pro-vaccine and want to subdue this damn virus as soon as possible. 

OTOH, several actual studies show that the percentage of long-haulers is between 20% - 35% of all those infected.The US has had ~46 million cases of Covid, so 11 million could well be accurate.

A recent study involving 2 million Covid patients found that 23% sought treatment a month or more after diagnosis. Another study (quoted at the bottom of this article) found that 33% of Covid patients who had never been hospitalized still continued to have long Covid symptoms. This study showed that 19% were affected. There are other studies as well, I'm just out of time to look them up.

[Tanaqui]

There are 331 million Americans.

11 million is 3.3%

I seem to remember that only a few months ago some people on this board stated that they didn't, to their knowledge, know any out LGBTQ people - and those are 5.6% of the population.

Although it seems unlikely it still is possible not to know anybody in a group that comprises 3% of the population, I guess, especially if for whatever reason they're not evenly distributed across the population, or if some of them might keep it private. ARE people with long covid equally distributed across the population? I'd assume so, but... I don't really know.

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

Finally, I’m going with anecdote here, but I don’t know anyone, nor any friend-of-friend people who have serious long covid symptoms. I know there are a few members on this board who do and I’m not saying I doubt they exist, but if it’s 11 million Americans, I should know a few at least. 

They may well be overestimating, but I don’t think not knowing any yourself is a good measure. Things tend to be unevenly distributed. It’s like how some people don’t know anyone who has had a bad case of Covid while others know multiple people who have died. The former often use the fact that they don’t know anyone it has happened to as justification that it isn’t actually as serious as the hard fact numbers show it clearly is. I don’t know anyone personally who has died of it, but I do know multiple with long Covid issues (a couple of those very serious). I expect there are also a fair number of people affected who don’t share about it with many people. 

[Corraleno]

I think it's difficult to get really solid stats on long covid because there's no standard definition, and most studies use something like "at least one symptom 30 days after diagnosis." But I don't think that's uncommon even with just the flu — if you're really sick for a week, and then still feeling tired and run down for several more weeks, that would count as "long flu" by the criteria that most of these studies are using. I had a really severe mystery virus about 20 years ago that had me in bed for 10 days (fever peaked at 106.7), and I continued to have intermittent low grade fever and fatigue for about a month after that, but then it went away with no residual issues. I think if the definition of long covid was something like "two or more symptoms continuously present for at least three months post diagnosis," the numbers would be more representative of what most people think of as "long covid."

[SKL]

I agree with the skepticism about the prevalence of long covid.  I know not one person who is still experiencing symptoms (other than one recently infected), including the one guy I know who had a very serious ICU case.

I know one person who had a mystery symptom for a weekend.  She got tested, and that was how she found out she had had asymptomatic Covid some weeks earlier.  The mystery symptom was nearly a year ago and never recurred.  So if that's long covid, then long covid isn't what they've hyped it up to be.

By contrast, I know a number of people who have had covid without any lingering anything.  Not saying it doesn't happen, but I don't think it's in the percentages that are being suggested.

As others have said, I tend to have lingering symptoms of every illness.  Like if I have a lung thing, I will cough for months.  If I had symptomatic covid and I coughed for more than 30 days, that wouldn't be newsworthy at all.

[bluemongoose]

I think part of the problem with "not knowing" someone...it is sometimes really hard to get the Dr to take you seriously. I know one person who is younger and was healthy. She has POTS symptoms and the Drs are just passing her all around. It has been over a year. I know a 9yo who is having sudden heart issues after having had COVID and is being referred to a cardiologist. It could be a coincidence, but...

And then there is the issue of what is encompassed in the term "long covid". I have a family member who died 10 months after COVID. She had kidney issues caused by COVID and she died of complications with the medications she needed. Basically it caused her COVID damaged organs to retain the medication to toxic levels. The medication is what killed her, but the organ damage that the medications were trying to treat...was that long covid? 

I have a 4th family member who had serious COVID which caused a stroke. They are not the same after that. Is the damage done by the stroke that is long term and the cognitive decline "Long COVID" or not?

Edited November 1, 2021 by bluemongoose

[fraidycat]

I don't know what the criteria is to be diagnosed as having long covid, but I do know two people who still experience at least one intermittent symptom - specifically lung pain. It is not acute, nor constant, but it does happen on a semi-regular basis at ~6 months out from infection and is not exertion-triggered, but can happen when they are just sitting watching t.v. or driving a car.

I would not have known this if I hadn't specifically asked my friend if she still had any lingering symptoms. Neither she, nor her daughter walk around advertising it. 4 in the family got sick, 2 are still experiencing lung pain.

[bluemongoose]

I forgot two more...they now have depression. They didnt have depression before their 2nd time of COVID. And it has been so obvious that it was the second bout of COVID when it started. Studies have talked about it causing psychological problems. So is that Long Covid?

Edited November 1, 2021 by bluemongoose
clarity