How much to tell 20 yo dd about a family member?

[Haiku]

This weekend we were at my dh's grandmother's funeral. My SIL gave the eulogy. After the funeral, my dd20 said to me, "Did you notice how [sIL] left the adopted great-grandkids out?" I had, in fact, noticed. The exact words aren't important, but the context was such that only the biological great-grandkids were mentioned. I told dd, "Yes, it was careless of your aunt, but I'm sure that when she wrote the eulogy she was thinking only about her sadness and not about how her specific words would sound."

 

However ...

 

This SIL has a history of insensitivity. She has made a stink about sharing a bathroom with our HIV+ daughter on a family vacation. She has told us that her in-laws would not attend her dd's birthday party if our dd were there (the strong implication being we shouldn't come). She has publicly stated that they would never adopt a black child. She has refused our attempts to help her become educated about HIV. And she has made many self-congratulatory statements about how she treats our kids "just like they are my real niece and nephew."

 

I know that nothing I say is going to change my SIL, and I have always shielded my kids from her unkindness. But I am getting tired of acting like she is just fine and dandy, and I feel like maybe I should let my dd know what kind of person SIL really is. The only thing that gives me pause is that dd20 has really struggled to find her place in our family (she was adopted as a pre-teen), and it's only been within the last two years that she has made peace with her situation.

 

Should I just hold my tongue?

[Mrs Mungo]

I think kids are pretty smart and will figure it out for themselves. She noticed the eulogy thing, so it seems like she is already getting there. I think I would answer direct questions, but not volunteer a ton of info.

[gardenmom5]

why on earth would you hold your tongue - and LIE to protect this woman (you knew darn well she wasn't overcome with grief when the 'adopted' kids were left out) - from your TWENTY-year old dd?

 

your dd is old enough to hear the truth - and you need to apologize to her for lying to her.  tell her she was right.  she may be getting her "gut" reads on this woman - and  YOUR lies are going to make her question those "gut reads".  and if she questions them in regards to this woman, she may question them when it might make an even bigger difference to her well-being and safety.

 

okay - sorry, I'm off my soap box.  I grew up with a nasty piece of work family member being protected from my "impressions" of her being a nasty piece of work and I had to work harder to learn to hear to those "gut reads".

 

eta: the thing about nasty piece of work family members - if it's not one thing for them to be nasty about, it's another.  even if you'd given birth to your dd, she'd have found something else to be a snot about.

[MiMi 4under3]

She's 20... you can tell her the truth gently.

[chiguirre]

Should I just hold my tongue?

I think it's up to your dh to decide what he should say to your dd about his sister. I'd pass the buck to him.

[Anne]

I would be gentle, and I would definitely involve your dh, but I would never protect the SIL at the expense of validating your dd's feelings about the SIL.   I had a toxic relative with whom I could never quite get along and b/c no one was ever even sort of honest with me about how difficult she was, I always thought it was *me*.  I didn't grasp until I was much older the fact that it was actually *her*.

 

Anne

[Catwoman]

I can't imagine holding back the truth from a 20 year old.

 

My ds is 14 and I wouldn't hesitate to tell him something like that. I would have told him years earlier.

 

Why wouldn't you want your children to know what your SIL is really like? I don't see why you would keep it a secret.

[Haiku]

why on earth would you hold your tongue - and LIE to protect this woman (you knew darn well she wasn't overcome with grief when the 'adopted' kids were left out) - from your TWENTY-year old dd?

 

I explained exactly why in my original post.

 

 

and  YOUR lies

 

Wow. Thanks for that.

[torikei]

I suggest tarring and feathering but perhaps it's because I've been blessed w 6 children--5 of whom we adopted. Sorry I know varying means of torture probably wasnt what you were looking for.

[Haiku]

Why wouldn't you want your children to know what your SIL is really like? I don't see why you would keep it a secret.

 

Because with this particular dd, she would take it personally that her aunt doesn't like her for the very things she is sensitive about: that she was adopted and that she has HIV. My dd is a freshman in college in a demanding major, she's very upset over her great-grandmother's death, she chose not to live at home this summer and instead got a job an hour away and is regretting the decision, so the idea of adding to her stress with, "Well, your aunt is a big fat jerk and has issues with adoption, race, and HIV" just seems like something that will hurt my dd more than help her. It has nothing to do with wanting to protect my SIL (I don't give a rip about her) and everything to do with trying to make sure my kids don't feel uncomfortable in their own family.

[torikei]

I wanted to add that I'm sorry you have to deal with a situation like that. I think handling it with grace and gentle honesty would probably be the best approach. We all love flawed people but that doesn't mean we aren't hurt by them.

[Catwoman]

Because with this particular dd, she would take it personally that her aunt doesn't like her for the very things she is sensitive about: that she was adopted and that she has HIV. My dd is a freshman in college in a demanding major, she's very upset over her great-grandmother's death, she chose not to live at home this summer and instead got a job an hour away and is regretting the decision, so the idea of adding to her stress with, "Well, your aunt is a big fat jerk and has issues with adoption, race, and HIV" just seems like something that will hurt my dd more than help her. It has nothing to do with wanting to protect my SIL (I don't give a rip about her) and everything to do with trying to make sure my kids don't feel uncomfortable in their own family.

I guess I was just thinking that it would be better for your dd to hear it from you (maybe omitting details that would be very painful for her,) rather than for her to eventually be blindsided by it when your SIL says something directly to her, or she happens to overhear her making one of her awful comments.

[umsami]

I think she has probably already realized it on some instinctual level.  At this point, and based on what you've written, I'd probably just validate how much her great-grandmother loved and valued her.  I would ignore evil SIL for now.

 

But if your DD does voice things, definitely validate her concerns so she doesn't think she's crazy. :)

 

I'm adopted.  My uncle (by marriage) abused me as a child.  Apparently, he didn't think it was that bad because we weren't really related.  Of course, that totally negates the fact that abusing any child is wrong…but…whatever.  :rolleyes:

[catz]

I never understood why my own parents acted like every adult was faultless when I was growing up.  I found it confusing, because I could see clearly that was not true but my parents thought behavoir was ok?  When I see obnoxious behavoir from a relative or anyone, I might say something in front of my kids later.  Like "Wow - Aunt Suzy sure has a hard time minding her own business".  or "Hmm ... that was rude behavoir".  Never in a "that person is a jerk" kind of way and I don't confront others.  We might even talk about reasons someone might behave badly.  But I don't pretend behavoir I'd never want to see from my own kids is ok to them.  I think it sends a real mixed message.

 

At 20, I'm not sure I'd initiate a huge conversation but I sure wouldn't cover up or ignore obnoxious behavoir.  I'm sure since your daughter said something, she knows where she stands and would probably prefer it just be out in the open. 

[Tammi K]

My First thought,, as I read through your post, was that I would be very open with my daughter, especially at 20.

BUT, then I read your concern about her feeling regarding her status in your family.  I think that would change my opinion.

 

Of course, you want to acknowledge your daughter's feelings, like you did at the funeral, and you may want to find an additional time to address her comments in more detail and add more insight into your SIL's motives behind her behaviour. But I agree with Mrs Mungo. Your daughter's unique situation seems to require a gentler touch.  Answer what she asks but let her know you are open to discussion if she want s to talk further.

 

Hugs, Mama. What an awful situation.

[OneStepAtATime]

OP, first, big hugs.  This is a really sad, painful place to be.  I fully understand why you have not addressed this directly with your DD before and it appears to me you were not in the wrong.  Only you know how your daughter would take being informed that a family member honestly cannot stand her existence in your family.  I agree, this isn't you protecting a toxic relative but  you hoping your DD can gain some solid footing in your family and some emotional maturity and security before exposing her to the ugly underbelly of another family member's feelings.  One of my kids might handle the news o.k.  The other would be haunted for life.  

 

If I were in that situation I would do what a PP said, answer direct questions.  I would probably also let her know that I do not feel that said toxic relative is a very nice person and I might mention specific issues that I had with her, too, so my DD would not believe it is only at her that toxicity is being directed.  Trying to sugar coat this too much may make her feel like she can't share any uncertainties, insecurities, even anger because her instincts and concerns are apparently unfounded.   But I would not bluntly hit her over the head with this info or anything like that.  Mom, I applaud you for being aware of your own daughter's emotionally fragile points and trying to be careful in how you deal with something that could potentially undermine her quite a bit.  Best wishes.  

[Unicorn.]

i wouldn't just come out and tell her, but if she asks, or notices something, just say "Yes, sil is a concieted, self absorbed snob.  And quite frankly i have never liked her" or something along those lines.  Ds has figured out "those" family members on his own... he's 17, but he has been around since birth, and doesn't have the special circumstances that your dd does.  Just don't sugar coat it for her anymore.  Hugs... your sil is a piece of work.  

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

I was married 2 years and a new mother.at 20. I would have been offended and hurt at having something like that kept from me. I'm just now finding out some truths about my childhood at 28 and I'm pissed that no one told me before now. I deserved to know. She does, too.

[mom2bee]

Wow....just, wow. You and your husband are very, very, very tolerant people, bless your hearts. I hope that your kids inherit that trait from you and your dh. ((hug)). Your girl is 20, she'll be figuring out some things in these next few years--don't lie to protect your SIL, but I would start talking to DH now so that you can both be on the same page about how you'll handle this and maybe redirect all in-depth questions about Aunt B. to your husband since she is his sister.

 

Mostly, I'm just trying to wrap my brain around how small minded, spiritually stunted and emotionally constipated one has to be to mistreat someone the way your SIL has been treating the kids. Wow...it just....completely fundazzles the brain....

[maize]

I would trust your gut. Some young adults need to not be given more than they can handle; when there are complex relationship and possibly mental health issues such as anxiety, depression, etc., the rules of the game change. I am thinking of a young adult I know right now, and I would definitely be cautious in addressing an issue like this because she is already swimming against the tide and dealing with all she can handle.

[gardenmom5]

B "Well, your aunt is a big fat jerk and has issues 

 

leave it at "has issues".  if it wasn't adoption, hiv, or race, it WOULD be something else.  your dd is old enough to realize not all family members are nice - even in 100% biological families.  don't cover for this woman.  (one day, your dd will be sure you were covering for her, and that will make her feel even worse because you chose to cover the snot, instead of being honest with her.)

[elegantlion]

She probably already knows. Personally, I'd comment about SIL being an insensitive a$$ (yes, I'd use those words) and then see where the conversation goes. It may confirm what she knows or it make allow her to see you don't condone those viewpoints. It hurts more when those people are family, but ultimately people who chose to remain ignorant are everywhere. 

 

But you know your own dd best, and I agree with maize, only you can gauge what is appropriate. 

[Tap]

I probably error on the side of being too honest with my kids.  I was the youngest of a big family and so many secrets were hidden from me because I was the 'baby'.  As 30yo, I was still considered the baby.  The problem with half-truths and avoiding the obvious, is that the person who has things hidden from them, hear bits and pieces.  They end up with half of the truth, and half of the fairy tale version of things.  

 

At 20yo, you have to judge the maturity of the person, but honestly, I would just tell it to them straight.  I have a 19 and 15yo children and I don't keep any secrets from them.  If they ask or comment on situations, they get the whole version, but I also make sure to tell them that it is my interpretation of events and that there are always biases in any situation.  

 

 

 

 

[Truscifi]

Because with this particular dd, she would take it personally that her aunt doesn't like her for the very things she is sensitive about: that she was adopted and that she has HIV. My dd is a freshman in college in a demanding major, she's very upset over her great-grandmother's death, she chose not to live at home this summer and instead got a job an hour away and is regretting the decision, so the idea of adding to her stress with, "Well, your aunt is a big fat jerk and has issues with adoption, race, and HIV" just seems like something that will hurt my dd more than help her. It has nothing to do with wanting to protect my SIL (I don't give a rip about her) and everything to do with trying to make sure my kids don't feel uncomfortable in their own family.

 

I totally get why you wouldn't want to say the bolded due to your dd's sensitivity to those issues, but you can comment on the jerkiness without putting it quite so bluntly. Eventually you won't be able to protect her from her jerky aunt, so I think it would be better for her to know in advance that she is a jerk. That way when she says something directly to your dd she will be at least somewhat prepared to brush it off as coming from a known a$$hat.

[abba12]

I understand why you've been cautious to tell her much given your situation. Honestly I'm not sure what id do in that instance. I am upfront with my kids about their relatives (one of them is quite happy to say, to dds face, he doesn't like her, believing that it doesn't matter at her age and she won't care. idiot. Anyway, I digress) because of circumstances they created my choices were to be more honest than most people or to outright lie (I believe all of the troublesome family actually expected me to lie and would be horrified if they knew how honest I have been). I refused to lie. I do, however, try to talk about why people act like they do and point out what positives I can in their actions, like when they truly believe they're being nice, even when they aren't actually.

 

But having tried to protect your daughter as long as you have, I can't imagine suddenly putting all that info on her at once. I would probably try to catch opportunities to share in conversation, when it comes up or something, rather than laying it all out at once. But I do think its time for her to begin hearing more truth about what's happening

[gardenmom5]

I understand why you've been cautious to tell her much given your situation. Honestly I'm not sure what id do in that instance. I am upfront with my kids about their relatives (one of them is quite happy to say, to dds face, he doesn't like her, believing that it doesn't matter at her age and she won't care. idiot. Anyway, I digress) because of circumstances they created my choices were to be more honest than most people or to outright lie (I believe all of the troublesome family actually expected me to lie and would be horrified if they knew how honest I have been). I refused to lie. I do, however, try to talk about why people act like they do and point out what positives I can in their actions, like when they truly believe they're being nice, even when they aren't actually.

 

But having tried to protect your daughter as long as you have, I can't imagine suddenly putting all that info on her at once. I would probably try to catch opportunities to share in conversation, when it comes up or something, rather than laying it all out at once. But I do think its time for her to begin hearing more truth about what's happening

 

one other thing that occured to me - when parents (or any family member) lies to their own child to cover-up the misdeeds of another family member - it can actually have the unintended outcome of making that child *more* insecure.

 

I was repeatedly given the message that my impressions were wrong. I understand why she did it.   it was years before my mother admitted I was right all along - but our relationship was permanently damaged.  I loved her, but I could never fully trust her.  It would have been better for our relationship if she'd just been honest instead of undermining my own instincts by covering for this person.

[J-rap]

By age 20, I'd usually be gently honest... as much as I would be with any other adult family member.  However, It sounds like your daughter's case is unique, so I'd probably be a little more careful.  I'd definitely acknowledge your daughter's feelings and let her know that you heard it too, and that SIL is very thoughtless/clueless about a lot of things.  I don't think you need to go into every detail, however.  (You don't need to relay what your SIL has said about blacks and HIV.)  It's probably enough for your daughter to know that it's your SIL that is the problem.

 

For the future, I would NOT pretend that your SIL is fine and dandy in front of your daughter.  I think that sends your daughter a mixed or confusing message.  On the contrary, by admitting to your daughter that your SIL is insensitive (and a jerk), you're validating your daughter's feelings and she knows that you're on her side. 

 

 

 

 

[SKL]

It is a tough question.  I would probably hint at it and check her reaction to see how much she is ready to hear.  I might say something like "some people are limited in their ability to care about other people.  SIL is one of those people."

 

Of course it is not a bad practice to take the high road and just choose not to criticize the in-laws.  Sometimes kids understand more from what we don't say than from what we do say.

[poppy]

It took me a while to understand, reading this post, that your 20 year old is the girl who was snubbed by her aunt.   Absolutely tell her. She's asking. Tell her.

[Farrar]

I see what you're saying, but it cuts both ways - if she decides you're protecting SIL or not being up front because she can see this already, then she may also not feel as comfortable.

[Plateau Mama]

"Well, your aunt is a big fat jerk and has issues with adoption, race, and HIV"

I don't think you need to put it quite that bluntly. ;-). If it were me I'd tell her that some people have issues with adoption and unfortunately there is nothing we can do to change that.

 

 

My MIL is exactly like your SIL. Her cousin adopted a boy from Russia several years ago. She tells us "he has issues because he's from Russia. I wouldn't be surprised if kills his family one day". I mean, who says stuff like that? Really? Then, 2 months later she is begging us to let my 11yo son fly across the country, alone, because cousin and his son will be visiting.

 

If you aren't blood related or married to a bold relative you aren't family. She got upset one year because my Mother had the nerve to show up at our house (invited) on Christmas Eve. She wanted the holiday to be just family. (Yes, my husband set her straight. Yes, she didn't talk to us for several months.)

[fraidycat]

I can't imagine not saying something to a 20 year old.

 

My children are 11 and 8. They are both well aware if the fact that "people are assholes". And that Sometimes we might happen to be related to "people".

[LibraryLover]

I would tell her that I believe auntie is insensitive (to say the least)/ignorant. You know it, and your dd knows it. It's OK to say it out loud. Good luck, Tara. It's difficult. I'm sorry. :(

 

[Audrey]

She's 20.  She's probably already figured out so-and-so is an ass. She probably just wants some confirmation that she is not alone in that perception.  I see no problem with expressing your real opinion of that person.  If you don't want to out-right say "why yes, so-and-so is an ass" you could simply say that so-and-so is "a real piece of work, bless her heart." *

 

 

 

 

 

 

* I'm sorry. I don't know how to translate that to any of the non-Southern languages.

[reign]

I see what you're saying, but it cuts both ways - if she decides you're protecting SIL or not being up front because she can see this already, then she may also not feel as comfortable.

This! I would be afraid she knows her aunt doesn't like her and that you are covering for her.

[mathnerd]

This! I would be afraid she knows her aunt doesn't like her and that you are covering for her.

I agree. From how this aunt treated your daughter (your DD should have already heard about the stink that SIL created because she did it in public) it does not look like your relationship with your SIL is one that you would want to cherish. I think that SIL is never going to be a good aunt to your DD and they may never have a good relationship with each other. So, why not tell DD the truth and tell her that sometimes we cannot help how the extended family behaves.

Your DD is old enough to understand and might be confused right now as to why her mom does not tell her that the aunt does not like her. Tell your DD - "I don't give a rip about that aunt's opinions" :)

[aggieamy]

i wouldn't just come out and tell her, but if she asks, or notices something, just say "Yes, sil is a concieted, self absorbed snob.  And quite frankly i have never liked her" or something along those lines.  Ds has figured out "those" family members on his own... he's 17, but he has been around since birth, and doesn't have the special circumstances that your dd does.  Just don't sugar coat it for her anymore.  Hugs... your sil is a piece of work.  

 

I probably err on the side of "telling too much" but I have a astute/self-assured daughter who doesn't miss much.  We have some family members who are huge jerks.  When we can't avoid them and they do something offensive I just shake my head and roll my eyes at her.  She now knows that means, "So and so is a fool.  Take no notice."  or "Oh geez.  We'll talk about it later."  

 

I'm an adoptive mom too but we have been so lucky that our family has never shown our kids any prejudice.  I'm so sorry you are dealing with that.  

[Anacharsis]

If you think you can explain why your SIL is the way she is, then talking about it might help -- then your dd will be able to fit your SIL's dislike into a bigger picture. It won't make your SIL's dislike any more rational, but it will make it more understandable.

[Rosie_0801]

I'd have stopped at "Yes, it was careless of your aunt" and I'd have delivered it in a tone that very clearly demonstrated my displeasure and hinted that I wasn't surprised.

[Pawz4me]

I haven't read all the replies, but we've never kept anything about the family from our kids.  I can't imagine trying to keep something from a 20 yo.  I read far enough to see the things about your DD that make this more complicated, but it seems to me it would have been much better to slowly "introduce" her to her aunt's issues all along rather than try to paint her as an okay person for years and then have to say well, there are some things we haven't been telling you.  DH and I have always kind of seen discussing personality flaws as a way to make our kids understand that nobody's perfect, we all have our issues, and sometimes we love (or at least have to tolerate) people despite their flaws and issues.  Pretty much an important life lesson.    But that's how we do/would do it.  I understand that's not the right approach for everyone.

[Scarlett]

(((Hugs))) you are a good mom.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

Didn't read the other replies, but at 20, your dd is probably already aware of your SIL's shortcomings, and is maybe looking for validation of her perception of the situation.  If she brings it up again, I would say something like, "SIL's behavior has really disappointed me.  She has always put people into categories, and so she misses out on a lot of life by her insistence on differences instead of the ties that bind us."

[Haiku]

When I woke up this morning, I had a text from dd that said, "Mom, do you think Aunt So-and-so left us out on purpose?" I responded with, "Probably. She has never been a very nice person, and she frequently says and does thoughtless, careless things. I don't like her very much, and you don't have to either."

 

She responded a few minutes later with "LOL!"

 

I don't know whether that's the end of the discussion or whether she was just in a hurry to get to work and couldn't respond more fully, but I feel a lot better that I started letting the cat out of the bag. I just hope that dd sees SIL's actions for what they are: a poor reflection on SIL and not a poor reflection on dd.

 

Thanks to everyone who sensitively responded to a tough situation.

[Starr]

When I woke up this morning, I had a text from dd that said, "Mom, do you think Aunt So-and-so left us out on purpose?" I responded with, "Probably. She has never been a very nice person, and she frequently says and does thoughtless, careless things. I don't like her very much, and you don't have to either."

 

She responded a few minutes later with "LOL!"

 

I don't know whether that's the end of the discussion or whether she was just in a hurry to get to work and couldn't respond more fully, but I feel a lot better that I started letting the cat out of the bag. I just hope that dd sees SIL's actions for what they are: a poor reflection on SIL and not a poor reflection on dd.

 

Thanks to everyone who sensitively responded to a tough situation.

 

 

Now that's been said :D I would not go into any more details. It would just be hurtful and not change anything. Young adults are still so sensitive.

[catz]

Good job mom!

[Heather in Neverland]

It's a tough one but I'd go with be honest.

 

Some people suck. That's it. That's life. She will get it from other people in the world so she might as well know about it now.

 

My family is one of those "sweep it under the rug and pretend everything is great" kind of families and it has caused a lot of problems.

 

I am estranged from my father and have not seen or spoken to him in 14 years. When my kids ask about him and why he is not in our lives I say, "because he is not a good person and he would only bring negative things to our lives." Although with my oldest ds I am more likely to say, "because he is a selfish, abusive egomaniac and he is not coming anywhere near my family."

 

I don't think someone who is racist, or treats someone poorly because they are HIV+, or adopted, etc., deserves to be protected. Some people suck. She is one of them. Your daughter deserves to know that. End of story.

[Wilma]

I think you did great.

[Impish]

I think your text response was awesome.

[gardenmom5]

When I woke up this morning, I had a text from dd that said, "Mom, do you think Aunt So-and-so left us out on purpose?" I responded with, "Probably. She has never been a very nice person, and she frequently says and does thoughtless, careless things. I don't like her very much, and you don't have to either."

 

She responded a few minutes later with "LOL!"

 

I don't know whether that's the end of the discussion or whether she was just in a hurry to get to work and couldn't respond more fully, but I feel a lot better that I started letting the cat out of the bag. I just hope that dd sees SIL's actions for what they are: a poor reflection on SIL and not a poor reflection on dd.

 

Thanks to everyone who sensitively responded to a tough situation.

 

good for you.  you are validating your dd's feelings, that you are putting her ahead of your dh's sister j(which as parents we should put our children before extended family), and that will actually help her develop more feelings of security in your relationship.

[Kathryn]

Great response! You validated your daughter's feelings without having to go into details.