We're all sad here over this. One of my work partners was a billet family for one of the boys lost. Kindly enough, our employer has given her extra time off to heal. It's hard to see so many so close to home who are connected to the tragedy. We're a huge country geographically, but still such a small town in the grand scheme of things.

I will tell you a story that I've told others, including myself, who love a person who doesn't have all their crap together at 18 or 20 or... My brother had the worst time in school. He hated it. He had some challenges that made it more difficult for him, but overall, he genuinely didn't want to be in school and got little value from it. He really only bothered showing up because of sports, and back then they didn't have a minimum average you had to maintain to play. He barely graduated. He had exactly the lowest average you could have and still walk away with a diploma. At graduation, our father actually yelled out "grab it quick before they change their minds!" Obviously, our father didn't have a lot of hope for his future. But our mom... she believed in the good, kind and determined person that he was. He worked for a time after high school. He was working as a drywall finisher when he met a few fellows who were deep sea divers on oil rigs. Having grown up in Florida, we were both well versed in diving, but my brother had a real talent for it. He had never before thought that it could be something that one would do for a living. These guys told him about where they had gone to school and what they had to do to become the divers that they were. My brother decided that he was going to do this as well. So he applied to a dive School in Houston. It was pretty rigorous and he was sometimes daunted at the courses, but he was determined to finish. At that graduation my parents weren't able to attend but I was, and in a move that would surprise everyone, including my brother himself, he graduated from Dive school with the top marks in his class, having got no less than 90% on any assignment or test. He was a very successful diver for about 6 years. Then unfortunately he had a very severe accident. During the time he was recovering, he was working inside the office and the shop of the company for whom he worked. Over time, he became more familiar with those types of operations of the business. Eventually, he was asked if he would like to do some supervisory work. That rolled itself into doing office work. Over the next several years, the company invested in him and even put him through an MBA program. And now, my brother, this man who people once thought would never amount to anything much at all, writes multi-million dollar contracts for dive services on oil rigs all over the world. So, the point of my story is ... you just never know how someone might surprise you.

:iagree: The vast, vast majority of male bosses I've had have been properly respectful. The very few who have been inappropriate really stand out, though. It's easier to remember the jerks, but that doesn't mean I have forgotten the decent men. I think that we should be shocked at the jerks, precisely because they AREN'T the norm. Everyone is NOT doing it.

He was quite the icon of that era. Not a good one, of course, but one nonetheless.

Not surprised, I'm sure. It is infuriating, though, that all of the onus for abuse is on us, not our abusers. They're just boys being boys, or men who were led to lust, or they were all loose women anyway, so it doesn't count, or... whatever other patriarchal bullshit line they want to throw out there. Let's talk about how men should be changing their behaviour. And, I'm not just talking about the ones who are abusing and assaulting others. I sincerely want to know what silences the decent men out there, that they don't speak up.

Instead of saying "willingly trading sexual favours," perhaps try framing from the perspective of a woman who is overwhelmed, intimidated, coerced, bribed, cornered and trapped into submitting to a power player. Submitting to that is not an act of "willingness." It's about mitigating the potential damage that could be done to you. And ultimately, none of this is about sex. It's about one person exerting their extraordinary power over another vulnerable person.

Congrats! I'm happy for you. :)

Pre-teen/teen years are hard. Sooooo many hormone rushes! It's an emotional rollercoaster for them and everyone within firing range. It does get better. In the meantime, it's okay to call them on it when they're being unreasonably crappy, but you don't have to be harsh. I'd ask my ds, "what did I really do to deserve that?" and that was usually enough of a "check" to make him stop and realise he'd been unreasonable. And, I also extended him a lot of grace when it was obvious he was having a frustrating, tough time. I just tried to remember how I'd been at that age, and how I would have like to have been treated. Kind of a golden rule in reverse sort of thing.

I use NatraCare products. I had always found pads uncomfortable and tampons unbearable. At some point in my 20's, I purchased some all cotton/organic pads out of desperation. It was all I could find immediately and needed them. To my surprise they weren't itchy/uncomfortable. I didn't know any different, so until I tried something that didn't irritate me, I just assumed being so uncomfortable was normal. I kept using that brand and some other organic cotton brands after that, eventually settling into the NatraCare brand as they're easy for me to find here.

Dark horizontal stripes on a white or cream top look really chic under a casual jacket or longer cardigan. Didn't you get an anorak or some kind of coat? I'll bet that striped top would look great under that with skinny jeans and those awesome olive booties (that was you, too, right?)

I remember. Some things can never be forgotten. :svengo: A washing machine, though. That's an inventive twist. :ack2:

This is kind of where I am at the moment. Something you think that, for sure, is going to make the other person walk. But then it doesn't. People really can surprise you. Sometimes you really surprise yourself. Lots more grey in the world than you would guess, KWIM?

:grouphug:

This is rambling thoughts from the thread about the spouse no longer attracted to their mate. The discussion included some thoughts on how weight might be related to a person feeling that their partner had given up on themselves, their spouse, the relationship... and it made me wonder if weight was a deal break for some. And, then I was thinking "what are deal breakers for people?" My spouse recently said to me that the only thing he couldn't forgive in our marriage is the irreversible thing (suicide). He can work with me on anything and everything else, but only if I'm there. He's quite recently proven this, so I know it's no lovey-dovey line of smarm or anything like that. I admit it surprised me. I'm sorry I underestimated him. It made me really think hard about things that I had held as potential deal breakers. If you choose to reply, please know that I judge no one. I'm curious and interested in hearing thoughts and having a respectful dialogue. I hope that others will also be respectful.

Just jumping off of this... There can be many reasons why a person doesn't want their spouse to be overweight. It can be a shallow, selfish reason such as that they feel the overweight spouse embarrasses them. It can be a fear reason such as that the overweight spouse's health is in jeopardy and the partner fears losing them. It can anything in between there or a combination of many reasons. I think that if spouse A isn't physically attracted anymore, it may be a good idea for them to examine why they no longer feel attracted. Is it really just the physical appearance of their partner, or is it some deeper feelings -- like fear of loss or rejection of the partnership agreements or ....? I think that until Spouse A really, truly understands themselves and why they feel that way, there isn't anything that can be done about their attraction to Spouse B. However, once Spouse A does figure out what really bothers them about the weight, they should open a very honest dialogue with Spouse B. Be real and be honest, but be kind ... for you are both fighting a battle with this.