Hoping for advice from those with married kids

[Eos]

Ds and dd-in-law have been here for the fourth.  It's so nice to have all my kids home and we've had fun adventures.  But.  The two of them snipe at each other a lot, and have a dynamic that I can only describe as exhausting.  I'll be honest - daughter in law snipes at ds.  He kind of laughs it off or changes the subject but occasionally engages.  It's sort of funny tone but mean content.  She's an only child and has always been pretty high maintenance, but it's really getting to me this time.  We haven't had them here since before Covid so it's possible I'm just more sensitive to it after not seeing it for a while.  My other kids are blown away and are very concerned for their oldest brother.  We are very different from dd-i-l but have taken an unconditional love approach that has allowed us to bond with her over the years.  She also snaps his first and middle name out sometimes as if she's his mother and is reprimanding him which I find creepy but is just her way.

I have compassion for people who suffer, and perhaps she suffers and takes it out on him?  But her life looks pretty good from here.  They both have jobs they love though his is quite stressful, they have a sweet house sold to them by her parents, he does all the cooking and most of the cleaning.  She and her parents are very close and loving, they live near to them and see them all the time.  They do and buy whatever they want.  So I'm having a hard time mustering compassion.  One exception is that they want children and have been trying, they've lost two so far and are starting to investigate - I have huge compassion for that part.  

So here's my ask of the hive: say something to ds?  Our relationship is very solid and loving, but he is tight with his emotions and could easily take offense.  If I did, what would it even be?  "do you feel happy?" "are you guys ok?"  "does she ever stop hassling you?"  Just kidding, would not ask that last, but you get the idea.  Or not say something and just wait for him? He once said one thing about how it was hard; they've been married for 7 years. Have any of you suggested marriage counseling to dc?  Why or why not?  How?  They live near her parents who maybe are just like her - her mom at least.  I've seen her dad back up my son in a male-bonding kind of way which fully cements the sniping behavior because it gets trivialized.

Thank you for any advice. 

 

[Katy]

No married children here.  But I think you’re making a lot of assumptions and may be way off base.  Some families are extremely sarcastic, but still loving.  If yours isn’t it can sound awful.  If it’s bothering you the next time she says something that makes you wince lightly and quietly say something to her in the moment like, “Ouch.  I know you two like to tease each other but that sounded harsh, not funny.  Are you okay honey?”

Also as someone who’s had multiple losses, that’s extremely stressful. More than any job. It cuts right to the heart of everything you think about yourself and even if it isn’t your fault, it feels like it is. Give her as much grace as possible. Maybe try to control the tone by speaking more quietly when she’s being loud or harsh.  I’ll pray God gives you the right (gentle and loving) words to say.  

[Tenaj]

I would never say anything.  Our adult children are just that, adults.  I would not ask him about it or recommend counseling unless he or she came to you for advice.  I have seen too many relationships damaged by parents who are too involved and try to "help".  Your son chose your dil as his wife.  If things are tough, that's the way it is.  Not your decision, not your business. 

I understand being concerned but I always try to think of what consequences could be.  If you say something to your son,  he goes to dil and says "hey, mom thinks we need counseling" and immediate your dil is on the defensive and your relationship with her may never be the same.

In fact, if my son came to me asking for marital advice my response would be that he needs to go straight to his wife to discuss what is going on.  They are adults, they know counseling exists.  

[BusyMom5]

*I do not have adult kids*

I think its okay to ask DS if DIL is okay, bc she seemed a bit frustrated and stressed. If you are asking in a loving, concerned way, I think it's okay to show support and see if there is anything you could do to help, tell them you will pray for them, etc.  Do not offer suggestions or tell them what they need to do,  though.

[busymama7]

This thread is so timely.  I am on the other side though. It is my daughter that is behaving similarly to her new husband. It is not behavior that we have ever accepted or done. I finally said something last night when she called him dumb in front of everyone(quietly and just to her I said something about being disrespectful to her spouse to call him names).  I have younger children and it is making me not want to visit or have them visit because I don't want this behavior normalized. It is pretty awful.  I am pretty sure thinks she's just joking around but it is so so so unacceptable.  

 

ETA: for the op.  I wish my son in law would stand up for himself so I get wanting to say something to him. I'm with others though and that would likely cause strain on your own relationship. I'm want to maintain a relationship with them and mostly ignore her behavior but as she's the one in the very clear wrong I have said things to her occasionally.  I am considering an ultimatum which I know could backfire but I honestly have to also think about my younger children. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by busymama7

[lmrich]

I have adult children, but they are not married. I would not say anything unless asked. But, I might bring up the losses they have had if the timing is right (they mention it first) and connect it to extra stress and strain on a marriage. Maybe add that you had friends who were in a similar situation and counseling was helpful for them.  But even that is skating on thin ice. A listening ear is better. 

[itsheresomewhere]

Don’t say anything.  If you want to keep the relationship you have with them the way it currently is,  don’t say anything. 
 

[Selkie]

You're in a tough spot here and I don't think you can say anything. If your ds is unhappy, hopefully he will get out before they have kids.

I know a now-divorced couple who were like this. Your description of your DIL's behavior is just how she treated him, and it got worse after their kids were born. I guess he reached his limit, because he ended up leaving her and marrying a female coworker.

[Kassia]

My parents' relationship was like this.  It really bothered me growing up listening to my mother pick on my poor dad all the time.  When I was a teen I lost respect for him because of the way he allowed her to treat him.  One day I brought it up to me and he told me that he was happy and loved my mother and he wouldn't still be in the marriage if he felt differently.  That took a huge weight off of me emotionally and I didn't judge or worry about my father after that conversation.  I don't know why, but I stopped seeing him as the victim at that point and more as an adult who made a choice.  She left him many years later and he was devastated and never got over it.  I thought maybe he'd feel a sense of freedom over not constantly feeling like he had to please her but he didn't and was still devoted to her until the day he died (she was a narcissist who still took advantage of his feelings for her even though they separated and eventually divorced).  

I wouldn't say anything.  It would be hard to see my child treated that way by someone they loved and cared about, but I don't think it would be my place to get involved in the marriage/relationship.  

 

 

[Annie G]

Our oldest’s dh was that way for years. It was very hard to bite my tongue and dh and I coped by venting to each other, not dd.  It drove me crazy. It got to the point that I really disliked when he displayed the behavior.  For him it was sarcasm, like if she asked him to help a kid go potty he’d say ‘no, I won’t wipe my own kid’s butt’ even though he was on the way to do it.  It was as if he was irritated she was asking him to do something order wanted everyone to know HE was doing his part.  He also frequently made fun of her for her anxieties or her worries, like if she said she was afraid their son was getting a migraine he’d say ‘yeah, and he’s probably got a brain tumor, too, in your mind’.  
Evidently either he matured out of it or she called him on it, because he’s stopped about 90% of it. 
Long story short- it was awful to watch but in the end I knew she was in charge of it, not me or dh. And we’re glad we let them work it out. But man, it took about 9 years and I’m not good AT ALL at biting my tongue.  

[BeachGal]

BTDT with one of our sons. They eventually divorced.

As painful as it is to watch, I would not say anything unless your son approached you for your opinion and even then, I’d be careful with how you phrase things.

[annandatje]

Do not comment or question their relationship.  Let son know you love him and her and that you will always be there for him.  If son expresses frustration re his marriage, respond with something non-controversial and non-judgmental like, "Relation problems are stressful.  I hope that both of you find a way to work things out to your satisfaction. That must be difficult for *both* of you."  If you get overly emotionally invested in his relationship, you may find yourself still angry or frustrated with daughter in law after the couple has already made up and moved on.

Edited July 5, 2021 by annandatje
punctuation omission

[plansrme]

Mine are not married yet, but one is seriously dating someone we do not like. None of us likes him, even my son, who likes everyone, so I have taken it upon myself to ask lots of people who are a stage ahead of us on this path, "Do you like your SIL? DIL?" Oh, man, I have asked this of a ton of acquaintances, which probably makes it easier for them to spill (don't we all tell strangers things we wouldn't tell friends and family?), but I have been shocked at the percentage who do not like the people their children have married. Some have come to appreciate the in-law over time; many have not. So, FWIW, there are the vague results of my quite-unscientific poll: you (and eventually we, I expect) are very much not alone.

[gardenmom5]

 nm

Edited July 5, 2021 by gardenmom5

[Farrar]

No btdt experience. But I do wonder if the relationship is strong enough if you can put out a feeler and then see if he bites. And if he doesn't, obviously, do not say anything. But I think, "Hey, ds, how are things with you and dd-i-l these days? The pandemic was so hard on everyone and we just didn't get to see you for so long. It's so nice to have you back. How are you two doing?" might be a general okay sort of thing. And if it's "hey, it was hard, but we're fine" or "we're great" or even "don't worry about us" or "please stay out" then you back off.

Another thing... if he's close with one of his siblings, especially if the sibling is also married or in a long term relationship... that's a place where someone can say something a bit more freely in a healthy relationship. You said the siblings are concerned. Maybe they're already on this for you.

[BlsdMama]

Here’s the problem:

 

1. There isn’ta good way for a mil to tactfully say, “I think you’re being hard on my boy,” to her daughter in law and have it be well received. 
2. Assuming you say something to your son, you’re only pointing out you’ve noticed... if it was within his ability to get his wife to change, he’d have done it. 
3. We can’t change others. We can only change our response to others. 
 

Be a loving example. Love her hard. Pray. I am at a loss because the mother in law/daughter in law relationship seems SO tricky and fraught with peril. I only have two son in laws. The last girl my DS dated was every mother’s dream -smart and sweet and caring. (I’m done mourning.) But we can’t control who they pick. 
 

I’m WAY sassier than my MIL was used to when DH and I got married. Honestly? I was sometimes super sharp with him at their house but I felt he reverted to being their son (rather than my strong and capable husband) whenever we were there for years. It drove me NUTS. Obviously this wasn’t something they could see because, in their minds, he was the same kid who has grown up there. (Reversion.) But in our “real” life, He was a very different man/husband/father, and one I respected. I hated the reversion and it made me very snappy. In his defense, I fought off the same urge when I’m at my parents even to this day. So, some of what you’re seeing really might be her being on edge around your family rather than representative of their life together. 

[fraidycat]

I do not have married kids. But, I do have a "straightforward" personality in which I do call out bad behavior in the moment. I will , and have done in the past, call out one spouse treating another like crap. Friends, siblings, cousins, etc. Phrases I can recall saying are things like:

"Wow, that was rude."

"That was harsh and uncalled for."

"Hey! Be nice! Choose kindness!"

It acts as a pattern disruptor and reminds them to save the arguments for when they are at home.

I am also the same person who will call out my people for being mean to themselves, so they know that I am not just jumping in on their marriage where I don't belong. If I ever hear a loved one say things like "I'm so stupid or I'm such an idiot", I tell them "Hey! Be nice to my ________!" (friend/cousin/sibling/etc.)

Since you're dealing with this after the fact, I think that you can express to your son that you hope DIL is okay because you noticed that she seemed stressed/unhappy. I wouldn't make any recommendations on how to "fix it", just that you pass your love along and wish her/them the best. If they've been fairly isolated with her family throughout the pandemic, your son may be like the frog in the pot of water and maybe a visit to your place where he was treated well might inspire him to stick up for himself more going forward because he'll see the contrast. But, that is his decision to make.

[Scarlett]

I have two married sons.  It makes  me sad to think the answer is to never say anything and let it play out to its oftentimes natural end of divorce.  How much kinder it would be to find a way to relay to the sniping spouse that sort of behavior takes a toll.  
 

But if I did not live near the couple and it was the DIL who was the sniper I probably would not say anything directly.  I like @Katy’s suggestion of deliberately modeling very kind behavior to everyone when DIL is around.  And perhaps immediately have she snipes speak low and kind and calm and  sweet to your son.  And sometimes a slightly raised eyebrow at especially mean treatment.  

[Scarlett]

11 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

I do not have married kids. But, I do have a "straightforward" personality in which I do call out bad behavior in the moment. I will , and have done in the past, call out one spouse treating another like crap. Friends, siblings, cousins, etc. Phrases I can recall saying are things like:

"Wow, that was rude."

"That was harsh and uncalled for."

"Hey! Be nice! Choose kindness!"

It acts as a pattern disruptor and reminds them to save the arguments for when they are at home.

I am also the same person who will call out my people for being mean to themselves, so they know that I am not just jumping in on their marriage where I don't belong. If I ever hear a loved one say things like "I'm so stupid or I'm such an idiot", I tell them "Hey! Be nice to my ________!" (friend/cousin/sibling/etc.)

Since you're dealing with this after the fact, I think that you can express to your son that you hope DIL is okay because you noticed that she seemed stressed/unhappy. I wouldn't make any recommendations on how to "fix it", just that you pass your love along and wish her/them the best. If they've been fairly isolated with her family throughout the pandemic, your son may be like the frog in the pot of water and maybe a visit to your place where he was treated well might inspire him to stick up for himself more going forward because he'll see the contrast. But, that is his decision to make.

This is how I am generally too.  Or if not in the moment I am definitely honest with my friends about how they treat their mates.  Just yesterday I counseled my own mother!  

[sassenach]

Don't say anything. It's truly for them to figure out and anything that you say will not be helpful and will possibly be harmful.

I have 2 married kids. One has a great, healthy dynamic with her dh and the other does not. In that case, it's my dd who is really unkind. TBH she's not kind to anyone in her life, as far as I can tell. She's certainly always been incredibly difficult for her siblings and us parents. I'm staying out of it. Nothing that I say is going to change her. They do laugh a ton, which I love to see. We try to love them both well. That and prayer are all we can do. 

Thinking back to my own marriage, which started incredibly young, we had a lot of problems. My mom once tried to intervene- it did not go well at all. It wasn't her place and no criticism that she could offer was going to heal what was going on there. The Lord, life, trials, and years together grew us. We changed and so did our marriage. 

Hang in there. I know it's hard.

[sassenach]

1 hour ago, plansrme said:

Mine are not married yet, but one is seriously dating someone we do not like. None of us likes him, even my son, who likes everyone, so I have taken it upon myself to ask lots of people who are a stage ahead of us on this path, "Do you like your SIL? DIL?" Oh, man, I have asked this of a ton of acquaintances, which probably makes it easier for them to spill (don't we all tell strangers things we wouldn't tell friends and family?), but I have been shocked at the percentage who do not like the people their children have married. Some have come to appreciate the in-law over time; many have not. So, FWIW, there are the vague results of my quite-unscientific poll: you (and eventually we, I expect) are very much not alone.

I will say that I think it's different before marriage. I definitely pointed out flaws in my kids' relationships (in a tactful, relationship preserving way) before marriage. 

 

Other thoughts:

-I agree that siblings can say things that parents can't. I try to remember that I'm not the only one in my adult kids' lives. They have friends and other relationships and I need to trust that I'm not the only person in the world who can speak into their lives.

-Amen and absolutely to adult kids reverting in unhealthy ways when around their parents. I know that dh and I STILL have to guard ourselves when around our FOOs. We were especially bad at this early in our marriage and nearly every visit ended up with us fighting. 

-I have a sassy family. We can be sarcastic. We playfully roast each other. We laugh non-stop. It's been pointed out to me that this is sometimes confusing for people who don't have this dynamic in their house. I realize that it might even look mean or unhealthy to other people. I have no idea how to convey that it's not, but it's not. We're fine; we enjoy each other. Non-roasting families seem boring to me, lol.

[kristin0713]

I don't have adult children, and I have not read all the replies.  But I have a mother who often talks to me about my siblings and what she thinks they should do differently.  I know that she is coming from a place of concern, and I can tell that you are, as well. But it never goes over well when she tells my sister her thoughts. My brother has great boundaries but my sister gets very defensive and hurt, especially when it has to do with her husband. So I agree with those who said to not say anything. I disagree with making comments. Stay out of it altogether and maybe don't share the house for holidays? (Hotel or some other option?) 

[Shoeless]

I like Farrar's approach. I think you can ask a general "How's it going?" type question of them both, but I would not correct or criticize what she says, either to her or your DS. It won't go well. 

[Arcadia]

My kids are obviously not adults. I have friends who needed to be dual income but were not able to conceive until they quit working or switch to a less stressful part time job.
My parents don’t want to burn bridges with my brother so they would ask me to talk to him, me being the blunt elder sister all his life. 

[Murphy101]

Honestly I’d probably say something in an aside kind of way. Because I probably would if they weren’t even related to me and visiting.  Though I admit my fixer/helper personality is not always my most loved trait.

For example if she got onto him with first and middle name, I’d probably joke that I bet he didn’t know he was marrying him mom. (Actually, I’d bet donuts one of my other kids would say it first. LOL)

Or I might just calmly say, “goodness you two seem really cranky with each other!  Is everything okay?”  If I could afford it and they seemed receptive, I’d offer to pay for marriage counseling. Or just be willing to listen without taking sides.

It may not change that they do it. But it might give them a moment of pause that those around them are hearing it negatively or unflatteringly and maybe think if that’s really how they feel.

I’d avoid to point of my tongue bleeding  saying any bad word about either of them.  

 

[Rosie_0801]

Nobody ever spoke to my spouse about the way he treated me, and look where I ended up.

I'd tell one or both that those kinds of speech patterns lead to divorce, so they need to work out whether it's a habit to change or a symptom of something else that needs to change.

[Scarlett]

I guess I am trying to figure out why the prevalent advice is to say nothing. Just because the sniper might not take it well is not a reason for silence.  And not everyone even realizes what they are doing so how are they suppose to ask for advise?

Sometimes we  need to be called out on our behavior. 

Last visit my MIL joked that she wound be playing referee between Dh and me. I  was embarrassed but vowed to watch our interactions. Dh and I adore each other and our marriage is not in trouble so I sure don’t want others thinking that or even make others uncomfortable. 

[Danae]

Before saying anything I would really, really, consider whether there is actually a problem or this is just a difference in communication style/sense of humor.  I’m pretty sure my mother-in-law would say a lot of the same things about me and my family.  She’s convinced my dad hates my husband, which couldn’t be further from the truth.  My husband loves my family and the way we interact. He credits my parents and siblings for making him realize that spending time with extended families can actually be fun.  (He has a Marx brothers / Monty Python sense of humor which fits in well and which MIL hates.) We make a point of spending time with MIL, because family is important, and we love her, but honestly I find her just as exhausting as she finds me. 

[Slache]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I guess I am trying to figure out why the prevalent advice is to say nothing. 

Because it can easily hurt your relationship with them.

[Scarlett]

Just now, Slache said:

Because it can easily hurt your relationship with them.

But what if it helps them?

 And if a relationship is so fragile it can’t take a loving word of advise I think there are bigger problems. 

[teachermom2834]

I’ve been married 25 years. I am not proud to admit I still remember “concerns” my MIL expressed about my marriage/parenting/housekeeping that happened over 20 years ago. 
 

Of course she thought she was helping but it sure didn’t and I sure set the relationship down a bad path. Now, I’m not saying that my reaction was mature (I was young twenties so surely not) and I am not proud that these things still come to mind. But I’m just being honest. It set a tone for the relationship that was very negative. 
 

I keep this in mind with my adult children and it places me firmly in the “don’t say anything” camp. It definitely didn’t change how I did things and it didn’t make me want my MIL around or to discuss anything of substance with her ever 🙁

[Slache]

7 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

But what if it helps them?

 And if a relationship is so fragile it can’t take a loving word of advise I think there are bigger problems. 

In my experience it won't help.

It's not a matter of a few words, it's a matter of staying in your lane. It's the action of speaking on their marriage.

[Eos]

Thank you all for such wise words.  

9 hours ago, Katy said:

Also as someone who’s had multiple losses, that’s extremely stressful. More than any job. It cuts right to the heart of everything you think about yourself and even if it isn’t your fault, it feels like it is. Give her as much grace as possible

Thank you.  I too had losses and it was so hard.  I was a basket case each time until I had another child.

 

9 hours ago, JanOH said:

I understand being concerned but I always try to think of what consequences could be.  If you say something to your son,  he goes to dil and says "hey, mom thinks we need counseling" and immediate your dil is on the defensive and your relationship with her may never be the same.

This.  I thought a lot about this before they were married and rather than "speak now" I held my peace for this very reason.

 

6 hours ago, annandatje said:

Let son know you love him and her and that you will always be there for him. 

This is my goal.

 

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

But I think, "Hey, ds, how are things with you and dd-i-l these days? The pandemic was so hard on everyone and we just didn't get to see you for so long. It's so nice to have you back. How are you two doing?" might be a general okay sort of thing. And if it's "hey, it was hard, but we're fine" or "we're great" or even "don't worry about us" or "please stay out" then you back off.

I do like this approach.  If I were to say anything, it would be this.  Carefully.

 

5 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

1. There isn’ta good way for a mil to tactfully say, “I think you’re being hard on my boy,” to her daughter in law and have it be well received. 
2. Assuming you say something to your son, you’re only pointing out you’ve noticed... if it was within his ability to get his wife to change, he’d have done it. 
3. We can’t change others. We can only change our response to others. 

So wise.

 

4 hours ago, sassenach said:

I have a sassy family. We can be sarcastic. We playfully roast each other. We laugh non-stop.

We are like this too, but maybe because she's an only child she never received the pushback that told her "enough".   I think maybe she feels that she's doing just what we do. 

I am reaching deeper.  I'm sure I will go back and forth in my mind some more, but I feel more at peace with the thoughts you've all given me.

[Clarita]

Reading this thread makes me sad. My mom sniped at my dad a lot, he put up with it for the most part until he would occasionally snipe back. Later on he could deal with it anymore but my parents never divorced they just fought until they didn't care to fight anymore. My entire childhood I wished an adult would call them out on it, but everyone kept quiet.

16 minutes ago, Harpymom said:

she's an only child she never received the pushback that told her "enough".

There are also definitely some intimate family social things that I don't know where the limits are (because only child no natural pushback). Pushback from parents is different from pushback from siblings I guess. My husband did learn in marriage counseling to be firm and blunt with me when I crossed the line (it could be done quietly and/or after the fact).

I'm thankful that I can and have told my in laws they don't have to "swim in their lanes". While there is some advice that I didn't take, there has also been some that were really useful that I wouldn't even know to ask for. (I don't have to tell my mom; as far as she's concerned she is suppose to keep a toe in my lane.) 

[pinball]

If I felt people were verbally abusing each other in front of me, I’d say something, not matter who they are.

constant sniping or insulting or mocking or teasing or pushing back when asked to help...all that is right on the line of verbal abuse for me.

And I’d err on the side of saying something rather than not saying something. I’d rather be wrong 99 times than miss the one time someone needed help or outside acknowledgement that that type of communication is abusive.

[TechWife]

7 hours ago, annandatje said:

Do not comment or question their relationship.  Let son know you love him and her and that you will always be there for him.  If son expresses frustration re his marriage, respond with something non-controversial and non-judgmental like, "Relation problems are stressful.  I hope that both of you find a way to work things out to your satisfaction. That must be difficult for *both* of you."  If you get overly emotionally invested in his relationship, you may find yourself still angry or frustrated with daughter in law after the couple has already made up and moved on.

This is the perfect response, IMO.
 

I think parents need to stay out of their adult children’s relationships, married or not, but they especially need to stay out of marriage relationships. Familial interference has the potential to do a great deal of damage to a marriage and family.
 

The ONLY exception to this is if you think there is abusive behavior occurring, and then the parents should still tread carefully and should probably seek professional advice for themselves, as walking with someone who is in an abusive relationship is quite different than the typical family or friend relationship. 

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Clarita said:

Reading this thread makes me sad. My mom sniped at my dad a lot, he put up with it for the most part until he would occasionally snipe back. Later on he could deal with it anymore but my parents never divorced they just fought until they didn't care to fight anymore. My entire childhood I wished an adult would call them out on it, but everyone kept quiet.

There are also definitely some intimate family social things that I don't know where the limits are (because only child no natural pushback). Pushback from parents is different from pushback from siblings I guess. My husband did learn in marriage counseling to be firm and blunt with me when I crossed the line (it could be done quietly and/or after the fact).

I'm thankful that I can and have told my in laws they don't have to "swim in their lanes". While there is some advice that I didn't take, there has also been some that were really useful that I wouldn't even know to ask for. (I don't have to tell my mom; as far as she's concerned she is suppose to keep a toe in my lane.) 

 

1 hour ago, pinball said:

If I felt people were verbally abusing each other in front of me, I’d say something, not matter who they are.

constant sniping or insulting or mocking or teasing or pushing back when asked to help...all that is right on the line of verbal abuse for me.

And I’d err on the side of saying something rather than not saying something. I’d rather be wrong 99 times than miss the one time someone needed help or outside acknowledgement that that type of communication is abusive.

I agree. 

If my ds was married, I would not stand by and watch his wife treat him poorly without mentioning anything about it to him. And if she did it in front of me, you can bet that I would say something right then and there.

I think insulting or sniping comments tend to escalate over time, and get worse rather than better. By saying nothing after repeatedly witnessing that type of behavior, I would feel like I was offering tacit approval, and possibly even making my child feel that the behavior was acceptable and that he shouldn’t do anything about it.

Kindness matters, particularly between spouses, and I would not want my son to tolerate belittling comments being made toward him or about him, so I would most certainly bring it up to him privately and let him know that his wife’s behavior was rude and unacceptable. If he decided to keep putting up with it, I wouldn’t be able to stop him, but I would be sure he knew that he could always come home if his wife continued to treat him poorly and he decided to end the marriage.

I am not anti-divorce, if that matters at all to this thread. If a couple is unhappy and can’t work through their problems, I think divorce, while unfortunate, is sometimes the only solution.

I have to wonder if some of the responses to this thread are because the OP’s son is the one who is being treated badly. Would you still be suggesting that the mom stay out of it if it was a daughter instead of a son? Would there be more concern that the unpleasantness could escalate into physical abuse if a daughter was on the receiving end and the son-in-law was the instigator? And why would anyone not remind their child that verbal abuse is still abuse, and they don’t have to tolerate it? 

Our family discusses just about everything and we are very open and blunt, so maybe that’s why I don’t understand why a mom would tiptoe around something like this (or say nothing at all) to their own adult child if the mom felt the kid’s spouse was being too nasty. People don’t generally get nicer over time if they tend toward being critical and belittling, so why not mention something to your child early on, so they don’t start believing that maybe they deserve to be treated badly? 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Catwoman
I can’t type without typos. I try. But I can’t.

[Selkie]

13 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

Our family discusses just about everything and we are very open and blunt, so maybe that’s why I don’t understand why a mom would tiptoe around something like this (or say nothing at all) to their own adult child if the mom felt the kid’s spouse was being too nasty. People don’t generally get nicer over time if they tend toward being critical and belittling, so why not mention something to your child early on, so they don’t start believing that maybe they deserve to be treated badly? 

One reason a parent may tiptoe around nasty behavior is because they are fearful of losing their relationship with their child and future grandkids. Parents don't usually hold the same sway over an adult child as a spouse does.The person being nasty is usually the one ruling the roost in the marriage, and very possibly could turn their spouse against his/her parents and decrease contact or cut it off entirely. 

[Catwoman]

19 minutes ago, Selkie said:

One reason a parent may tiptoe around nasty behavior is because they are fearful of losing their relationship with their child and future grandkids. Parents don't usually hold the same sway over an adult child as a spouse does.The person being nasty is usually the one ruling the roost in the marriage, and very possibly could turn their spouse against his/her parents and decrease contact or cut it off entirely. 

I guess it depends on the parent/adult child relationship. 

Personally, I would rather take the risk of having my child get annoyed with me, than not say anything. My son and I are very close, and we are open about our feelings, so I’m sure it would seem odd to him if I didn’t say anything, and because we have always been able to discuss tough topics, I wouldn’t hesitate to do so. 

I’m not saying I would go into the conversation saying that the DIL was a terrible person or anything extreme like that, but I would definitely say that I had noticed that DIL seemed to be insulting him (or whatever it was that she was doing,) and I would ask him how he felt about it. 

I think some people don’t really notice how bad things are getting until someone points it out to them. Things start out ok, and then the spouse gets a little snarky, and then a little snarkier, and then it keeps progressing to downright meanness... but it happens over time and the spouse on the receiving end gets used to being mistreated,  and may even start believing that they deserve it. Also, if the spouse is bold enough to make abusive and belittling comments to her dh in front of his own family, how much worse might it be at home when no one else is around? Why should his family have to sit there and act like it’s acceptable for her to do that? I couldn’t sit at the dinner table and listen to my child’s girlfriend or wife belittle him without saying anything. I just couldn’t do it. (And my son already knows me well enough to realize that I would say something, so he wouldn’t be shocked.)

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Catwoman
Forgot something! But at least it wasn’t a typo...

[Ausmumof3]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

But what if it helps them?

 And if a relationship is so fragile it can’t take a loving word of advise I think there are bigger problems. 

For me I’ve seen too many situations where criticising the boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse has resulted in a non-contact situation. If the dynamic is definitely abusive you say something but otherwise best not.

[TechWife]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

But what if it helps them?

 And if a relationship is so fragile it can’t take a loving word of advise I think there are bigger problems. 

It’s the parents’ relationship with their own son or daughter that usually gets damaged. Parents need to trust their kids to work out their own problems. They will ask for advice if they want it. Again, I’d make a careful exception for abuse, but otherwise it’s meddling. 

[Ausmumof3]

27 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I guess it depends on the parent/adult child relationship. 

Personally, I would rather take the risk of having my child get annoyed with me, than not say anything. My son and I are very close, and we are open about our feelings, so I’m sure it would seem odd to him if I didn’t say anything, and because we have always been able to discuss tough topics, I wouldn’t hesitate to do so. 

I’m not saying I would go into the conversation saying that the DIL was a terrible person or anything extreme like that, but I would definitely say that I had noticed that DIL seemed to be insulting him (or whatever it was that she was doing,) and I would ask him how he felt about it. 

I think some people don’t really notice how bad things are getting until someone points it out to them. Things start out ok, and then the spouse gets a little snarky, and then a little snarkier, and then it keeps progressing to downright meanness... but it happens over time and the spouse on the receiving end gets used to being mistreated,  and may even start believing that they deserve it. Also, if the spouse is bold enough to make abusive and belittling comments to her dh in front of his own family, how much worse might it be at home when no one else is around? Why should his family have to sit there and act like it’s acceptable for her to do that? 

I think in part because it’s not clear from the original post that this is verbal abuse and not a playful dynamic that the OP feels uncomfortable with.  I know as a young 20 something this was a dynamic we had at times and maybe I crossed some lines but it definitely would not have helped if my mother in law had said something.  

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think in part because it’s not clear from the original post that this is verbal abuse and not a playful dynamic that the OP feels uncomfortable with.  I know as a young 20 something this was a dynamic we had at times and maybe I crossed some lines but it definitely would not have helped if my mother in law had said something.  

If it’s just playful, the mom can ask her son about it and tell him how it looks to a third party, and he can tell her they are only joking around — but I’m not at all sure that’s the case here.

If Mom is getting an uncomfortable vibe from the DIL’s comments, chances are pretty good that other people who know the couple are feeling the same way. It is extremely awkward to be around a couple that insults and belittles each other, whether or not they are joking around. And in this case, it must be very noticeable, because the OP’s other children are very concerned for their brother. It doesn’t sound like Mom is overreacting, or that this seems playful.

I would rather err on the side of talking to my son and making sure everything is ok, rather than say nothing and later wish I hadn’t. 

I know some people have mentioned being concerned about possibly losing the chance at a relationship with future grandchildren, but I would be more worried about innocent children being born into what may be a toxic relationship, and I would hope and pray that they didn’t have any children before they sorted out their problems. It would be awful for their future children to see one parent belittling the other one, and I would rather see my kid get divorced than have children with a spouse who didn’t respect him.

Hopefully in this case, the DIL will realize that her comments are out of line and it will turn out that she was joking, but she won’t realize that she is being inappropriate or make any changes unless the OP’s son discusses it with her and insists that she treat him with more respect — and if he is putting up with that kind of nonsense and not saying anything to her, somebody who loves him needs to talk to him about it, whether it’s Mom, Dad, or his siblings. And if DIL is making sniping comments at him in front of his family, I see no reason why they can’t address it with her at that moment. If she has the nerve and is rude enough to insult her husband in front of his family, why should they be silent? I’m not saying they should start a big fight, but they should certainly be able to acknowledge it so she doesn’t think they agree with her.

[Selkie]

6 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I know some people have mentioned being concerned about possibly losing the chance at a relationship with future grandchildren, but I would be more worried about innocent children being born into what may be a toxic relationship, and I would hope and pray that they didn’t have any children before they sorted out their problems. It would be awful for their future children to see one parent belittling the other one, and I would rather see my kid get divorced than have children with a spouse who didn’t respect him.

Speaking generally here and not specifically about you and your ds - The problem with this approach is that you are not taking into account the very real possibility that your child stays with the nasty spouse and has children that you are not allowed to see because nasty spouse does not like your interference. 

[Slache]

39 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

For me I’ve seen too many situations where criticising the boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse has resulted in a non-contact situation. If the dynamic is definitely abusive you say something but otherwise best not.

We are no contact with 2 criticizing mothers, but the criticism was a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. 

[JennyD]

8 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

1. There isn’ta good way for a mil to tactfully say, “I think you’re being hard on my boy,” to her daughter in law and have it be well received. 
2. Assuming you say something to your son, you’re only pointing out you’ve noticed... if it was within his ability to get his wife to change, he’d have done it. 
3. We can’t change others. We can only change our response to others. 

I agree with all of this.  And I'd add only that.your DS may not be interested in getting his wife to change.

I can only imagine how annoying this must be to listen to, though.  I had a great-aunt and uncle who were married for 70+ years, sniping and yelling at each other the entire time, until they finally died just a few weeks apart.  It was exhausting to be around them.  Wishing you strength, OP.

[Catwoman]

18 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Speaking generally here and not specifically about you and your ds - The problem with this approach is that you are not taking into account the very real possibility that your child stays with the nasty spouse and has children that you are not allowed to see because nasty spouse does not like your interference. 

I see what you’re saying, but I would still be willing to take that chance. I would rather know I did everything possible to warn my child, than sit back and watch him endure a lifetime of abuse.

And if the spouse was that nasty, she probably wouldn’t want me around her children, anyway, and would be trying to discourage my ds from seeing me, as well.

[kbutton]

8 hours ago, Seasider too said:

THIS IS A HUGE THING. 

It is something I wish I had known about and understood way earlier in my marriage. It would have changed some of the big decisions we made about where to live. 
 

I could say a lot more on this point but better just stop. OP just know it is definitely real and may truly be affecting your dil’s behavior. Thanks for pointing that out, @BlsdMama  

Yeah, my husband’s family def doesn’t bring out the best in DH. I don’t matter when we’re with them. It’s been a major marriage problem. 

8 hours ago, sassenach said:

-Amen and absolutely to adult kids reverting in unhealthy ways when around their parents. I know that dh and I STILL have to guard ourselves when around our FOOs. We were especially bad at this early in our marriage and nearly every visit ended up with us fighting. 

Agreed. Does you DIL like your family? Even if your DS is not behaving badly when at home, if she doesn’t like your family, generally, she could be sniping because he fails to mitigate or smooth out her time there. There are people I love dearly that I don’t really like and would prefer to not spend time with. If I have to, I really rely on other people with me to make it bearable. Maybe she’s just not into the family, and she wants more assistance coping with that than he’s giving. 

3 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Nobody ever spoke to my spouse about the way he treated me, and look where I ended up.

I'd tell one or both that those kinds of speech patterns lead to divorce, so they need to work out whether it's a habit to change or a symptom of something else that needs to change.

I got criticized for being too hard on DH by my folks and now they realize things aren’t great between us for a reason. He’s not mean, he just doesn’t bond with people well. There is no sense of “us” that comes from him. He’s loyal but not really a team player in a meaningful way. It’s like if you want to be on the same page with him, his first instinct is to jump off that page and start a new one. Even when he fights that impulse, it’s still there and just comes out another crack in the relationship, and the inevitable lack of unity is even less predictable as a result.

3 hours ago, Danae said:

Extra quote. Oops.

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Catwoman said:

I see what you’re saying, but I would still be willing to take that chance. I would rather know I did everything possible to warn my child, than sit back and watch him endure a lifetime of abuse.

And if the spouse was that nasty, she probably wouldn’t want me around her children, anyway, and would be trying to discourage my ds from seeing me, as well.

Exactly. I am not going to be held hostage by anyone. If she is that easily angered I would not stand a chance any way.  And if my son chooses that he chooses that.  

[happi duck]

This is tricky for me.

I knew a couple like that but it was just their dynamic.  They were very in love.  (One spouse died. ). It was exhausting to be around though!

That said, my ex was terrible and when he massively broke my heart *so* many people told me about all the red flags they saw and never mentioned.  It would've helped me to know I would've had support if I would've left.