am I just an old fuddy duddy?

[ktgrok]

I'm really really hoping it is selection bias - as in people having normal, healthy relationships are not posing on Reddit. But man...SO many women posting about guys who are rude, but then apologize so they go have sex with them, "friends" with benefits situations where the guy is a jerk, SO many situations where guys refuse to use condoms are argue about it, etc. 

Maybe it makes me an old fuddy duddy, but it seems like part of the reason for dating a guy for a while before having sex was to see how they respect you in other ways. Like, a guy who isn't respectful of your restaurant choice is a guy you don't give the chance to argue about condoms with later, you know? I realize some guys are just really good at hiding who they are, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about what seems to be a sex first, get to know they later, then be upset that they don't meet your standards kind of stuff. 

I was taught that if you can't talk to a guy about what would happen with a birth control failure, or an "oops" pregnancy, you shouldn't be having sex with them. And I get that sometimes one can have those standards and still end up having a night that goes farther than planned, whatever. Hormones are real. But there isn't even that idea anymore - no concept of getting to know someone before getting naked. I mean, body positivity is great, pro sex is fine, but there are real issues that come into play with big consequences - seems you want to at least know if they are a jerk first? 

 

[Ottakee]

I have heard that rates of teen sex are down…..but no idea about those 20 and above

[Danae]

4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I'm really really hoping it is selection bias - as in people having normal, healthy relationships are not posing on Reddit.  

 

I am quite sure this is true.  (Or not posting about their relationships, anyway.) And if they are they don’t get much engagement.  It’s the train wrecks that get attention.

[catz]

Meh - individual subreddits can have very niche vibes and communities.  I also get the feeling there is plenty of fiction on there and plenty of teens and very young adult posting.  The most dramatic situations get the most attention and rise to the top with their algorithms.  I do follow some reddit subcommunities, but I take many with a very large grain of salt.  Overall data doesn't really back this up.  I also don't think it's unusual for young adults to be navigating some less healthy relationships while they're learning about themselves and their boundaries, I certainly did.  Especially young people who were maybe raised in less than healthy family dynamics, sometimes it takes them a while to get themselves to a healthier mind space.  

I occassionally go read AITA threads for entertainment.  I can tell it skews young because almost every marital problem should end in immediate divorce and almost every bride posting is right.  I mean that isn't 100% but you have to be a huge obvious flaming AH to get called out for it in some of those cases.  

ETA - to be clear, I don't see this as a moral issue either.  

Edited May 17, 2022 by catz

[Katy]

I’m sure there are plenty of young women who were never taught to have boundaries or standards and who are so lonely they don’t believe it’s better to be single than be with a jerk who treats them badly. 

[bolt.]

I think the sensationalized stories give a picture of the fringes of this phenomenon. I don't think most people are doing the 'sex first, get to know you later' approach to relationships. That's reddit. More mainstream media seems to represent an 'after x many dates' personal standard that is an important personal choice people are making.

However, the general idea behind 'get to know you first' to find out if someone can be trusted for sex doesn't seem to be mainstream any more. In that sense many of us are 'fuddy duddies'. By that I mean we are members of a population that is older than the youngest adults, espousing group values that aren't shared between the two groups.

In general, sex is taken less seriously by younger adults, therefore they think (or imagine they might think) that a sexual mishap or bad experience wouldn't be the end of the world. Therefore they are more open to enjoying it sooner and more often -- even though they also risk things going wrong sooner or more often.

Personally, I think many of them will be surprised at how seriously their psychology really will take a bad sexual experience if/when it really happens. But I could be wrong. It could be that when people perceive sex as 'serious business' they actually are more damaged by bad sexual experiences than people who perceive sex more recreational-relationally? It's worth wondering about.

But, yes, I think it's an actual discernable cultural shift.

Also, though, the youngest current contingent of adults is not a vast proportion of the population. We and our parents' generation still hold a massive majority of actual population and actual cultural influence. We can safely watch and wait to see how this actually plays out (and rescue, comfort and offer good hindsight if needed).

[HS Mom in NC]

Both.  There probably is selection bias in who is posting and social norms are changing.

[Farrar]

Sex rates are down. But also, norms are changing. Most of the 20 and younger 30-somethings I know do have casual sex, including with partners they haven't been with for very long or decide not to continue dating for long. I don't have any issues with this. I mean, I definitely have issues with guys who don't want to wear condoms, but then people I know would either force them to or just walk away. Younger adults I know tend to see negotiations around sex as part of the opening negotiations in a relationship, not as a secondary set. And if you don't see casual sex as a moral issue then negotiating the sexual vs. the what we like to watch on TV and how we cook and how clean we keep our space type stuff... I mean, there's moral better to doing one before the others.

As for oopsie pregnancies, everyone I know would just get an abortion. No moral quandaries there. Or they wouldn't. I know a couple of single moms my age who did it that way, father not on the birth cert. 

But obviously that's going to vary widely from community to community so yes to the selection bias issue too.

[Carrie12345]

I don’t know that it’s quite so fringe. When I see so much about Tinder, etc., it feels closer to mainstream, even if not statistically mainstream (or is it?)
I won’t pretend casual sex didn’t exists “in my day”, but it definitely feels like a shift.
FWIW, HIV and AIDS were still stories on the forefront when I was a teen/young adult, and I feel like it’s become downplayed now.

[bibiche]

What Farrar said. Norms are changing. IMO this is a good thing, just in the US there are some growing pains because traditionally it is such a repressed country in terms of sexuality. Once it gets over the hump (ew, bad unintended pun) I think things will improve. There seems still to be a lot of angst involved in sexual relationships. This is not the case, generally speaking, in more liberal societies and I think those societies are the better for it.

[ktgrok]

33 minutes ago, Farrar said:

 Younger adults I know tend to see negotiations around sex as part of the opening negotiations in a relationship, not as a secondary set. And if you don't see casual sex as a moral issue then negotiating the sexual vs. the what we like to watch on TV and how we cook and how clean we keep our space type stuff... I mean, there's moral better to doing one before the others.

 

I guess I just see finding out he's a jerk cause he slips off the condom, or pushes for acts you are not okay with, or turns out to not believe STDs are a real thing as having more serious consequences than finding out he thinks a man should always order for a woman or that he's pushy about alcohol or calls women who order dessert pigs or whatever. Like, one puts you in more actual physical danger, plus it is often harder to negotiate in the midst of hormones, or just when physically naked. 

But I also think STDs and pregnancy were a bigger deal when I was growing up, culturally?

30 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

FWIW, HIV and AIDS were still stories on the forefront when I was a teen/young adult, and I feel like it’s become downplayed now.

You know, this probably is a big part of why it feels odd to me. HIV was SUCH a huge thing when I was becoming sexually active. Sex was soemthing that could literally kill you - maybe that's where a lot of this comes from, for me. 

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

I'm really really hoping it is selection bias - as in people having normal, healthy relationships are not posing on Reddit. But man...SO many women posting about guys who are rude, but then apologize so they go have sex with them, "friends" with benefits situations where the guy is a jerk, SO many situations where guys refuse to use condoms are argue about it, etc. 

 

 

you answered your own question.  Neither of my daughters are on social media - of any kind.  as they said - they don't have time.

[kbutton]

@ktgrok, I have heard a podcast or two talk about this, though I don't remember if it was in-depth. It would be something like Holy Post or Good Faith, but I think the discussion was in response to secular articles on this topic, and there would've been links or discussion. I have tried to find this, and I am out of luck.

They would obviously be coming from a more traditionally conservative view of sexuality with different suggestions, but the article links might be of interest to you. 

I am sorry that I can't find the specifics. 

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

I guess I just see finding out he's a jerk cause he slips off the condom, or pushes for acts you are not okay with, or turns out to not believe STDs are a real thing as having more serious consequences than finding out he thinks a man should always order for a woman or that he's pushy about alcohol or calls women who order dessert pigs or whatever. Like, one puts you in more actual physical danger, plus it is often harder to negotiate in the midst of hormones, or just when physically naked. 

But I also think STDs and pregnancy were a bigger deal when I was growing up, culturally?

You know, this probably is a big part of why it feels odd to me. HIV was SUCH a huge thing when I was becoming sexually active. Sex was soemthing that could literally kill you - maybe that's where a lot of this comes from, for me. 

I grew up during the midst of the AIDS crisis, but I might have a different take on casual sex.

Young people I know are the products of understanding safer sex and managing risk. Which is not to say that applies to all young people. But they are not walking around in fear about STI's. For them, HIV risk is just a managed thing. Just like how most people now are going to the movies, to see friends, to eat out on patios, or what have you even though there's a risk of Covid and they don't overly think about it. Most younger people are just having sex when they want to have sex and using condoms or getting tested when entering into even semi-long term relationships. Someone I know gets psyched for the getting tested together bit because it means gloves come off and hormonal birth control and a more lax attitude toward sex in the relationship, even if it's only for a few months. But I also know some young people who are poly (and some older people who are poly!). And I know younger adults who are married and have kids and are living lives that parallel my own (though maybe behind by like 5 years in terms of the kid part). 

Obviously a person saying a condom is on and then removing it is a massive bad. But young adults I know would consider that sexual assault. It would not be a chill occurrence. And they would go scream about it. Maybe even online. Part of the selection bias is not just the people who post online, but also the same sort of bias you see in reviews. People are more likely to submit a review when a product was bad or you were lied to by the seller. Same with relationships. Everyone likes to share their war stories.

[Tanaqui]

First off, ktgrok, somebody who "stealths" and removes a condom when you agreed to have sex WITH a condom is not a "jerk" but a rapist - and somebody who pressures you into sex acts you don't like is little better than a rapist. Let's not downplay this.

But secondly, if you're uncritically believing everything on reddit, that's a whole 'nother problem. Quite a lot of reddit, especially the more advice-y subs, is creative writing.

[Murphy101]

If that’s what makes us old fuddy duddies, then I’m okay with claiming the title.

[Ellie]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

If that’s what makes us old fuddy duddies, then I’m okay with claiming the title.

Same.

[ktgrok]

6 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

First off, ktgrok, somebody who "stealths" and removes a condom when you agreed to have sex WITH a condom is not a "jerk" but a rapist - and somebody who pressures you into sex acts you don't like is little better than a rapist. Let's not downplay this.

But secondly, if you're uncritically believing everything on reddit, that's a whole 'nother problem. Quite a lot of reddit, especially the more advice-y subs, is creative writing.

Well no, I don't just believe it, that's why I came here to ask. I guess I wasn't clear that I was trying to figure out was this actually the norm now. 

[prairiewindmomma]

9 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Young people I know are the products of understanding safer sex and managing risk. Which is not to say that applies to all young people. But they are not walking around in fear about STI's. For them, HIV risk is just a managed thing. Just like how most people now are going to the movies, to see friends, to eat out on patios, or what have you even though there's a risk of Covid and they don't overly think about it. Most younger people are just having sex when they want to have sex and using condoms or getting tested when entering into even semi-long term relationships. Someone I know gets psyched for the getting tested together bit because it means gloves come off and hormonal birth control and a more lax attitude toward sex in the relationship, even if it's only for a few months. But I also know some young people who are poly (and some older people who are poly!). And I know younger adults who are married and have kids and are living lives that parallel my own (though maybe behind by like 5 years in terms of the kid part). 

Obviously a person saying a condom is on and then removing it is a massive bad. But young adults I know would consider that sexual assault. It would not be a chill occurrence. And they would go scream about it. Maybe even online. Part of the selection bias is not just the people who post online, but also the same sort of bias you see in reviews. People are more likely to submit a review when a product was bad or you were lied to by the seller. Same with relationships. Everyone likes to share their war stories.

This is what I see here, in my neck of the woods.

This is not what I saw when I lived elsewhere.  There was hella more toxicity in relationships when we were in TX, at least in my circle, with both college kids and mom friends my age navigating a lot of abusive behaviors from men.  I also saw some "transactional" behaviors from women (have another kid/get a boob job; turn a blind eye to an affair/get a new car and a great vacation; put up with physical and emotional abuse/get a posh house and a huge shopping budget). I think some/most of reddit is fiction, but I have seen enough of what Katie is talking about to know it actually happens in some places....but I don't think it's the norm.

[fairfarmhand]

28 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

If that’s what makes us old fuddy duddies, then I’m okay with claiming the title.

 

25 minutes ago, Ellie said:

Same.

I’ll sit over here in the corner with you guys. I’ll happily join this club.

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, kbutton said:

@ktgrok, I have heard a podcast or two talk about this, though I don't remember if it was in-depth. It would be something like Holy Post or Good Faith, but I think the discussion was in response to secular articles on this topic, and there would've been links or discussion. I have tried to find this, and I am out of luck.

They would obviously be coming from a more traditionally conservative view of sexuality with different suggestions, but the article links might be of interest to you. 

I am sorry that I can't find the specifics. 

Was it this one?

 

Episode 502, March 30 on the Holy Post.

 

[Elizabeth86]

2 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

 

I’ll sit over here in the corner with you guys. I’ll happily join this club.

Count me in too!

[Murphy101]

29 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Well no, I don't just believe it, that's why I came here to ask. I guess I wasn't clear that I was trying to figure out was this actually the norm now. 

There’s way too many women who have bought the lie that equality for women means accepting the worst in relationships and acting like the worst of men.

And frequency doesn’t make self destructive or abusive acts okay. 

[kbutton]

2 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Was it this one?

 

Episode 502, March 30 on the Holy Post.

 

I think so, and I think I didn't get to finish it, but the WaPo link makes me think this is it. 

[itsheresomewhere]

5 hours ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t know that it’s quite so fringe. When I see so much about Tinder, etc., it feels closer to mainstream, even if not statistically mainstream (or is it?)
I won’t pretend casual sex didn’t exists “in my day”, but it definitely feels like a shift.
FWIW, HIV and AIDS were still stories on the forefront when I was a teen/young adult, and I feel like it’s become downplayed now.

Funny, we were just talking about this and we felt the same way. I did notice recently in PA there are billboards talking about AIDS/HIV on a route we take.  Glad to see that .

[math teacher]

3 hours ago, Ellie said:

Same.

Make room for me in the fuddy duddy corner.

[Rosie_0801]

I had a classmate who lived in such a subculture. Sleeping with someone was the equivalent of what getting their phone number used to be. Getting someone's number isn't even a milestone anymore, because they're all following each other on Snapchat anyway. Basically, refusing to sleep with someone on a first date would indicate a lack of interest, and if their feelings were hurt enough, they might *delete* your number (or off Snapchat.) So, they sleep together, create lots of nice endorphins, then can't tell the difference between love and oxytocin because no one told them about oxytocin. She also said it's best to get to know them drunk/high because that's more important than how they are sober. And she plays by these rules because it's that or nothing, and who wants to be celibate and childless for their whole life? Not most people.

[Kassia]

17 minutes ago, math teacher said:

Make room for me in the fuddy duddy corner.

me too - we're going to be squished

[kbutton]

42 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

I had a classmate who lived in such a subculture. Sleeping with someone was the equivalent of what getting their phone number used to be. Getting someone's number isn't even a milestone anymore, because they're all following each other on Snapchat anyway. Basically, refusing to sleep with someone on a first date would indicate a lack of interest, and if their feelings were hurt enough, they might *delete* your number (or off Snapchat.) So, they sleep together, create lots of nice endorphins, then can't tell the difference between love and oxytocin because no one told them about oxytocin. She also said it's best to get to know them drunk/high because that's more important than how they are sober. And she plays by these rules because it's that or nothing, and who wants to be celibate and childless for their whole life? Not most people.

That sounds depressing.

[easypeasy]

Please do not quote. Thank you.
 

I have no idea about what's being said online online, but I can speak about my kids' friends (I have a close relationship with almost all of them that they went through the middle school/high school years). They (a large group of them, obviously not all) are absolutely living this kind of life.

The girls sleep with whoever is saying nice things to them at the time (even if he says demeaning things before/during/after), claiming power in their sexuality or whatever - and then cry absolute buckets of tears when the guy isn't in love (even though they shouldn't want to be with a jerk like that, yk?). It happens over and over and over and over again.

The guy friends are complaining that they are "bored" with sex because girls just... give it to them all the time and will basically do whatever and however the guys request. There's no hunt - it's just expected.

Their LGBTQ friends are experiencing the same issues.

Their very religious friends are getting married early (and about 60% are already divorced).

Several of the young men have said they find it more satisfying to just watch porn and play video games than it is to deal with a woman's "baggage." So - that's what a lot of them are doing and ignoring women altogether.

wow.

I'm sitting firmly in the fuddy duddy corner. These kids are constantly lonely in a room full of people.

They have little sense of romance (and I'm not just talking the flowery, sweet kind - but the ravishing, exciting kind - or the tender, slow-moving kind - or the patient, evolving friendship kind - or the long looks across the room kind.... ANY kind).

I'd feel VERY differently if ANY of these kids I know personally (and others my kids tell me about from college that I do not know personally) were HAPPY. But they are all (relationship-speaking) lonely, miserable, and confused by it all. Many are in relationships that they find miserable for one reason or another, but don't want to get out because "it's too much work." THESE KIDS ARE TWENTY-FIVE YEARS OLD AND UNDER!  😩 It's tragic.

But, when a guy will ask one of these girls "on a date" they laugh behind his back (or, often, to his face) because they "don't date, omg!" They roll their eyes if a guy brings flowers and call him a simp.

I get why the guys are confused and, in many cases, giving up. I get why the girls are sad and I'm sad that they can't see it.

It's absolutely depressing. This is supposed to be a fun, carefree time of their life and they seem to be attempting to do that in a very unhealthy way while claiming "freedom."

I'm not against casual sex, per se. It can have its place for some people and I'm not going to judge. Beach vacation? Go for it if that floats your boat. A bridesmaid in a friend's wedding and the groomsman is hot? Knock yourself out! Just use protectionS  because: Dear Gen Z'ers, STDs are still very, very real and not any fun to deal with (and expensive!) even if you aren't afraid of HIV anymore.

But - every weekend with just whoever happens to be there, even if he's been a jerk to you on a regular basis? Casual hookups with a guy who tells you "hey - don't tell anyone about this" or who makes you walk home (a long walk from off-campus housing back to campus) late at night? Guys who tell you right to your face that they're only "doing this" because "you're who's available?" Heck, no!!! That's not casual sex, that's low self-esteem talking imho. But, when I talk to these girls about it? They SWEAR I don't know what I'm talking about and I am sexually repressed. 🥴

It's like, what even?!? My kids aren't like this and just shake their heads at their friends. But they are also finding it increasingly difficult to date in this time because, yes, hookups (or at least discussion of hooking up) is pretty average on a first "hangout" and my girls avoid any dating apps because of all the d!¢# pics their friends are subjected to.

My girls are also friends with so many young men who are addicted to porn and are afraid to get involved with someone with the same issues (how do you know, yk?). These young men say out loud they have trouble being interested real-life sex (even when a live actual human girl is in front of them, ready and willing) because they're so used to what they see on the screen.

What. even.

There's no heart in any of this and these kids are hurting but have no idea what they're looking for.

My boys are in solid relationships now. But, they had to sort through a lot of girls who just threw themselves at their feet, though. It wasn't just that these girls would "ask them out" or something. It was the pictures... the phone messages... the video texts... the Snapchats... wow. 😶 My son will NOT text any girl under the age of 18 for any reason whatsoever now because of what some younger girls (they were on a team together & got his # from the roster) sent him when he was around 17 years old.

And there were girls who got snippy if the kid didn't want to hook up on the first hangout. Some got quite nasty about it (gossiping behind my kid's back, etc).

It took a while for them to appreciate the more rational, pragmatic girls.

Thank goodness they both reached that point, but I know they've had enough casual hookups to burn out early (they're a senior in high school and a freshman in college and already burnt out). 😳

Whoo. I guess I've been holding onto some of this frustration. I'm the mom a lot of them call when they're down in the dumps and what I'm hearing has been blowing my mind for a few years now. They seem to listen to exactly ZERO of my advice and just keep "rinse and repeating" the same mistakes that make them miserable over and over again. 😐

Edited May 18, 2022 by easypeasy

[Lillyfee]

My oldest was the last couple of weeks in middle school to make the transition to high school easier and she always told me that most of her friends she made have boyfriends and that they already do stuff with them and that the kids constantly talk about sex and send each other nude pics. I did not really believe her. I mean, they are 13/14 and that is when slowly the interest in dating starts but they are far from ready be relationship ready usually. 

This week at graduation I was so shocked how young my girl looked compared to the others. Almost all girls were dressed in skinny, short dresses with high heels, lots of makeup and everything screamed that they want to show what they have and be sexy.

I always thought that I am the most liberal mom on the planet. I do not even have any problem with nudity or anything. My parents took me to nude beaches at an early age and growing up in Europe I am used to nudity and feel the US is so much more conservative but that sight this week shocked me.

I am not ready for this. 

STD are a big thing still. My old neighbor worked at the hospital here and and she said it is very common left and right.

I worry about that sexual overflow for my kids. It seems very modern and fun but I feel it puts the magic of a relationship away if everybody is all the time available.

I grew up very liberal and I feel that I am a little hippie at heart while my husband grew up very conservative and old fashioned.  I also fell in love with him because he just treated me so careful and gentle. First date only a hug. Some dates later a gentle kiss. He was a young man and tried more but accepted immediately my signs to wait. He opened doors, he treated me like a princess and I wish so much for my kids that they experience also real love one day and that they wait because this first kiss is magical and stands on is own. The game of waiting and getting to know each other in an innocent way is an experience I don't want them to miss.

Sex is overvalued in society. Yes, it's fun, but it's only part of the picture.

 

[Rosie_0801]

@easypeasy Maybe you need to spam your young friends with Mark Manson's article on standards. 😢

[DawnM]

I am such an old fuddy duddie that I don't even really get reddit.   The only thing I have really followed on there had to do with a girl with fake health issues and people calling her out.   Otherwise I can't seem to follow threads easily, so I don't go there at all.

[ktgrok]

EasyPeasy, what you are describing it what I was trying to describe, and it really is sad! 

And I'm not shocked by casual sex in itself - as you say, there are times it has always happened, and I won't speak of a particular Bahamas vacation I took, but this is not that. It's...like people are doing it out of habit or obligation or...something. 

[fairfarmhand]

It’s like these people know all there is to know about sex, but nothing about connection and relationships. They’re thinking that sex is the key to connecting but connection has to come first for sex to be (emotionally) safe, fulfilling and meaningful. 

[Lecka]

My 17yo son tells me that Reddit is known for being weird.  He told me not to let my younger child go on it.  I wasn’t aware it had that reputation, but my son thinks it does at least, and he knows more than I do about things like that.  

[Shoeless]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

My 17yo son tells me that Reddit is known for being weird.  He told me not to let my younger child go on it.  I wasn’t aware it had that reputation, but my son thinks it does at least, and he knows more than I do about things like that.  

Yes, reddit is an echo chamber of weirdness. It's a train wreck most of the time. 

Same for Tumblr. 

[catz]

1 hour ago, MissLemon said:

Yes, reddit is an echo chamber of weirdness. It's a train wreck most of the time. 

Same for Tumblr. 

Oh I don't know, I follow several special interest groups on reddit that are just vanilla special interest groups and are well moderated.  Like related to cooking, home dec, theater, music, etc. Because of the way the subreddits operate though some really can get messy but it's easy enough to curate your feed.  But I suspect the same can happen on any platform with private groups and hand picked administrators.  

That said, I wouldn't encourage any regular social media use for kids younger than high school anyway.  

[Lecka]

I have only seen things like that on Reddit that will show up as reach results for me sometimes, so I really wasn’t aware.  
 

 

[LucyStoner]

I don’t know much about or care about Reddit stories. I do know a lot and care a lot about what is going on with my friends and family members in the under 25 age bracket. Some of the things I hear are encouraging.  For example, focus on consent and being able to discuss sex.  Some are profoundly discouraging- the extent to which porn influences a lot of how young people see sex, the pressure to exchange nude pictures casually, the substitution of sexual acts for just getting to know someone. While fewer teens are having sex, it’s my impression that for many of those who are, it’s become very casual.

Perhaps the most troubling thing that has come up with my niece and her friends is that despite increased awareness about consent, it’s pretty common for people with limits about what they will do to be told that refusing is being judgmental or “kinkshaming.” I know more than one girl in the older teen to mid 20s age bracket who has been browbeat for not being ok with some fairly rough sex. 

My son got labelled a prude for not thinking it was wise for his friend to swap nudes with a kid at school.  He ultimately lost that friend over it.  And his reaction wasn’t judgmental- it was simply not agreeing that it was wise or safe.  Predictably enough, the friend ended up finding that the person she sent the pics to spread them around and that’s a whole drama.  I do feel badly for her.  Unfortunately, the situation isn’t that rare.  

[KSera]

24 minutes ago, LucyStoner said:

it’s pretty common for people with limits about what they will do to be told that refusing is being judgmental or “kinkshaming.” 

I hear this kind of thing as well and sense that young people have a reluctance to have any limits or express disagreement with anything for fear of -shaming whatever it is. With the result being that their “consent” isn’t really consent in the way it should be, and they have lost any sense of it being okay to have their own mind about things.  

@easypeasy What you describe in your post is very much what the Holy Post podcast linked above was talking about as far as the current dynamic for young people surrounding sex. It’s sad and lonely for them. 
 

[Bootsie]

I fall into the old fuddy duddy category and don't know what people are posting on Reddit.  I do not think the behavior, however, is new.  I was shocked in the late 80s/early 90s to hear some of the people I had gone to high school talk.  I had a friend with a conservative background who, by her mid 20s, had a "little black book" where she recorded details of her various sexual encounters, rating her partners on several dimensions.  She said that a date just didn't feel "complete" without sex.  She saw it as a "way to get to know someone" rather than an expression of affection with someone she knew fairly well. When she got pregnant, the father begged her to marry him or to have the baby and let him raise it; but she chose to terminate the pregnancy because he was really nice, but not the kind of person she would want to marry.  Within a year, she was involved with a superior at work, who was married.  Another pregnancy--and she was shocked when he didn't leave his wife and children to marry her like he said he would--after all he was such a loyal, trustworthy, dependable, honest, faithful person....

[Jann in TX]

Well, I'm raising a beautiful 2yr old grandson...  we raised DD in a conservative home-- but after she had graduated college she had her own ideas and fell for this  'sex' first culture...  At least she had a pretty good idea who the baby-dad was (paternity test confirmed)-- The day she told him she was pg he told her he was going to marry another girl...he BEGGED DD to get an abortion- she declined.  Fast forward 3 years... DD's health has deteriorated (long story) and DH and I are GS's primary care givers.  On the upside we LOVE GS's step-mom and have a good relationship with his dad as well (never saw that coming!). 

Raising a 2yr old AND caring for his ill momma has been incredibly difficult... DH and I are nearing 60 and we are TIRED at the end of the day.

I'm still a Fuddy Duddy and a Prude.

[busymama7]

I don't actually see any positives coming out of this movement including how it's expressed on this thread.  You can have a positive view of sex and still wait for marriage and avoid casual sex. In fact, I would argue that that is a MORE positive view than what is being described here.  Also somewhere here someone said that in this culture if they get pregnant accidentally they will just go get an abortion.  This is exactly what some of us mean by using abortion as birth control.  (No I am not in favor of the current political changes happening even though I am generally conservative).  Everyone talks about reducing the need for abortions and while things like easy/free BC are part of that, let's also acknowledge that waiting until marriage for sex also reduces the demand.  Not completely no but it does play a role.   Yes I am deeply religious and that is where my upbringing was so that influences this because I believe it is a commandment.  But I also believe it is very much for the best for everyone involved in the sexual relationship including any potential baby/fetus.   I look around and think, nope. I want no part of that.  I am happy to have waited for marriage.  (For some people a long term committed relationship could serve this same purpose). This casual, hookup culture is SO damaging. 

[Fritz]

8 hours ago, busymama7 said:

I don't actually see any positives coming out of this movement including how it's expressed on this thread.  You can have a positive view of sex and still wait for marriage and avoid casual sex. In fact, I would argue that that is a MORE positive view than what is being described here.  Also somewhere here someone said that in this culture if they get pregnant accidentally they will just go get an abortion.  This is exactly what some of us mean by using abortion as birth control.  (No I am not in favor of the current political changes happening even though I am generally conservative).  Everyone talks about reducing the need for abortions and while things like easy/free BC are part of that, let's also acknowledge that waiting until marriage for sex also reduces the demand.  Not completely no but it does play a role.   Yes I am deeply religious and that is where my upbringing was so that influences this because I believe it is a commandment.  But I also believe it is very much for the best for everyone involved in the sexual relationship including any potential baby/fetus.   I look around and think, nope. I want no part of that.  I am happy to have waited for marriage.  (For some people a long term committed relationship could serve this same purpose). This casual, hookup culture is SO damaging. 

This.

This discussion helps me to understand how we got to the current casual attitude regarding abortion. Sad.

[Farrar]

I think I said the thing about abortion, but folks I know all use birth control so it's pretty unfair to characterize that as relying on abortion as birth control. We just know it fails sometimes and again, people I know have zero moral issue with an early stage abortion. So it wouldn't be a big deal for them. I don't have any issue with it either. 

I want to say that you can also have a healthy attitude toward sex and have casual sex. And that to my mind thinking that casual sex is a problem in and of itself is not a healthy attitude toward sex - and that's apart from whether you choose to engage in it or not as obviously you can also have a healthy attitude and make different choices. It's just that part of having that healthy attitude is understanding that a wide array of choices can be right for different people.

As many people have said, the increased emphasis on choice, consent, and acceptance of others is a huge positive that seems to exist alongside other behaviors. I don't know how people can't see those as positive.

That said, many of the attitudes people have observed in this thread are decidedly not healthy attitudes toward sex or relationships and many of them make me sad as well. I find it hard to get an attitude on how common they actually are, which was Quill's question in the first place.

 

[Terabith]

I know that this probably comes as a surprise, since everyone thinks I am a raging liberal, but I actually am really bothered by casual sex.  I mean, most of the time, it’s not my business, and I hope people use both birth control and condoms, but I really feel like sex outside of a committed relationship is not a good idea.  I know I personally have all sorts of messed up stuff around sex, but I have been the person people go to for advice about relationships since I was 13, and casual sex causes so many issues.  I am all for sex positive relationships, but I just don’t see it as equivalent to movie watching.  

[hjffkj]

Casual sex and hook up culture isn't anything new in my world. I'm 35 and it was certainly the norm in highschool. What has changed is that women are less likely to be seen as sluts for having multiple partners. But I don't really think that has changed much into making it more positive. Yes, less girls are ridiculed for having multiple partners but now I see tons of pressure on girls to have multiple partners even if they don't want to. I see committed relationships as things peers encourage you to avoid, unless of course you have an open relationship. I see the hurt that results from someone cheating being downplayed because you should just go find someone else to sleep with. 

And from what I have heard all this casual sex hasn't even made the experience better for women. They are pressured to perform like porn stars, so their actual pleasure isn't a focus and what does that matter to men anyway since they don't plan to see that woman again anyway. At least some men don't do it intentionally, they are just oblivious to what good sex is for females because they grew up on porn. Those men can learn but that is more likely to happen in a relationship where they have the same partner for a long time. And that is if that partner actually speaks up, which again is not something most young women know to do.  I can only speak of heterosexual hook ups because those are the ones I most talk about. 

[Murphy101]

My grown kids (19-27) say it’s about 50/50 those who only ever hookup and those who don’t at all or rarely do.  They say the hook ups are because most do not want a relationship. They don’t want to date. They don’t want to get married. They don’t want to deal with each other’s emotions and opinions. They don’t want to have kids, maybe never.  They generally have no desire at all to make any kind of family and feel friends and FOO are enough of a family.  And even if they change their mind and decide to have a relationship - even a serious one - they are all very jaded about it and do not expect anything to last until death do they part.  It’ll last until they aren’t happy with it and then it’s over. The majority of these kids come from parents who divorced and often divorced a second time (bc second marriages have an even higher divorce rate) and they just don’t believe marriage or love is a thing that ever really lasts. So what’s the point.  And yes, porn culture is a major factor in this.

Of those that do want actual relationships - it’s extremely difficult to find similar minded  people to date.   Too many once burned twice shy situations out there.

 

I think it’s sad.

Edited May 20, 2022 by Murphy101

[KSera]

Agreeing with @hjffkj’s post above. 
 

I found the March Washington Post opinion piece on this, which I think is worth the read:

Consent is not enough. We need a new sexual ethic.

It’s written by Christine Emba, who wrote a recent book called Rethinking Sex. Brief excerpt from linked piece:

”But the outcome is a world in which young people are both liberated and miserable. While college scandals and the #MeToo moment may have cemented a baseline rule for how to get into bed with someone without crossing legal lines, that hasn’t made the experience of dating and finding a partner simple or satisfying. Instead, the experience is often sad, unsettling, even traumatic.

As Rachel told me: “Every single person I know — every woman I know — has had some questionable encounter, whether it was, like, really violent or really forceful or just kind of like, ‘Oh, I hated that. That was not fun.’”

Follow Christine Emba's opinions

These are typically encounters that adults have entered into willingly, in part because consent alone is the standard for good and ethical sex. But the experiences that many young people described to me sound neither ethical nor particularly good.”