Ukraine

[SKL]

My church also ... although afaik there are more Russians than Ukrainians attending there, they have posted in support of Ukraine.

Many churches near me have big signs up that are pro-Ukraine.  However, I'm not sure how many of these churches are majority-Ukrainian themselves.

[Dianthus]

I think this is a unifying issue and all people I know, both parties, both sides of the aisle are appalled. I don't know anyone who is not pro Ukraine.

[PronghornD]

12 minutes ago, Spirea said:

I think this is a unifying issue and all people I know, both parties, both sides of the aisle are appalled. I don't know anyone who is not pro Ukraine.

My brother is. Putin was forced to invade because the west did not live up to their treaty to not expand Nato. The Infowars guy will tell you all about it. Then you too will have superior knowledge.

[Slache]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

Please forgive me for coming in on the 16th page and asking a tangential question. I've read some of the thread but am not caught up.

Those of you in conservative Christian homeschooling circles: what response are you seeing to the war? I am not on Facebook and nobody talks politics with me anymore. 😉 

Thanks! 

Pro-Ukraine, sending money and prayers.

[Pawz4me]

Some of the conservative Christians I know appear to be choosing to ignore the war completely. They're continuing to fully blame POTUS for gas price increases. No attempt at nuance, no acknowledgement of the war. Just blame. These aren't home schoolers, though.

[historically accurate]

Just now, Pawz4me said:

Some of the conservative Christians I know appear to be choosing to ignore the war completely. They're continuing to fully blame POTUS for gas price increases. No attempt at nuance, no acknowledgement of the war. Just blame. These aren't home schoolers, though.

This is what I am seeing. Just no comment at all. 

[MercyA]

29 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

This is what I am seeing. Just no comment at all. 

Just like COVID. Almost a million deaths in the U.S.--yet it's crickets during our church service, 99.9% of the time. Prayers for everything else. Not COVID.

Edited March 8, 2022 by MercyA

[DoraBora]

Lots of reminders to pray for the people of Ukraine, praise for their courage, discussing best ways to send money.  I haven't heard anyone saying anything pro-Russia.

[teachermom2834]

I have seen the usual “remember they are only telling you what they want you to know” and  “you can’t believe the mainstream narrative”. I did see someone post that they were sick of seeing all the positive press that Zelensky was getting and people needed to do their research and stop making him a hero. And the usual “this is just to distract you from what is really going on.” 
 

The usual stuff from the usual suspects.

[Carol in Cal.]

18 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Just like COVID. Almost a million deaths in the U.S.--yet it's crickets during our church service, 99.9% of the time. Prayers for everything else. Not COVID.

Our church has prayed for Ukraine during the Divine Services several times.  I have heard no support from Russia from anyone there.  Quite a conservative bunch.

[kbutton]

5 minutes ago, teachermom2834 said:

I have seen the usual “remember they are only telling you what they want you to know” and  “you can’t believe the mainstream narrative”. I did see someone post that they were sick of seeing all the positive press that Zelensky was getting and people needed to do their research and stop making him a hero. And the usual “this is just to distract you from what is really going on.” 
 

The usual stuff from the usual suspects.

What I would really like to know is if the usual suspects that I unfriended are finally facing pushback from people who "didn't notice" the crazies for the last couple of years. I know people who are friends with many of the same people I unfriended who are baffled at why I now think some of those people are lunatics. 🤦‍♀️ I think they give too much benefit of the doubt and aren't on social media as much. But still. I guess they don't recognize the red flags? Some of the loonies are good at saying just enough to call to their crowd while not tipping off "normal" people who aren't skeptical by nature? 

[ktgrok]

Not a conservative church, but my church had sunflowers for the altar flowers on Sunday, in honor of Ukraine, and we prayed for them, and the pastor sent out info on how the statewide conference for the denomination is collecting donations (money) and how we can donate. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Our conservative church prays for Ukraine. We have regular updates from friends who were in ministry there and had to flee and reports from Ukrainians - some refugees, some still in Ukraine helping on the ground as they can. 
 

We also pray for people with Covid. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

3 hours ago, MercyA said:

Please forgive me for coming in on the 16th page and asking a tangential question. I've read some of the thread but am not caught up.

Those of you in conservative Christian homeschooling circles: what response are you seeing to the war? I am not on Facebook and nobody talks politics with me anymore. 😉 

Thanks! 

I saw nothing pro-Russia at all  but lots of talk about the situation. Very pro-Ukraine. 

*sigh* until one wackadoo posted this.  She is the only one I've seen express anything like this until her. 😡

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Our church has prayed for Ukraine during the Divine Services several times.  I have heard no support from Russia from anyone there.  Quite a conservative bunch.

Are you Missouri Synod Lutheran? The reason I ask is that my experiences with MSL have always been entirely positive. Conservative? Yes. But not fundie, and not evangelical in the sense of mainstream evangelicalism. So it seems like the denomination is able to stand for very fruits of the spirit standards, very much all about the words of Christ, and not fall too easily for "trends" in thought.

As for locally, we have mostly seen "pray for Ukraine". But there have been outliers. I have a nephew who is pro-Putin, and it's all NATO's fault. A few posts from former co-workers that were not for Russia or against Ukraine per se. Instead calling for the immediate withdrawal from NATO and back to an isolationist policy so we won't be drawn into a war.

[fairfarmhand]

Christians in may area are offering Prayers for Ukraine, the neighboring states, and for those in Russia who will be affected by  leadership decisions that they do not agree with. Also praying that those who started this war would repent and back down. Nobody is supporting Russia/Putin that I've seen.

[Longtime Lurker]

46 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Back for a minute to address Mercy's question. We used to be Orthodox Christians and knew plenty of homeschoolers. Most support Russia. The divide is that the Greeks and the Ukrainians (obviously) support Ukraine while the others support Russia by different degrees. 

This is a tweet from an Orthodox Christian homeschooling mother. 

The patriarch of the Russian church gave a sermon yesterday where he implied that the war was about gay rights.

Some Catholics also support Russia. This is from an article on LifeSiteNews. 

Wow.

39 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I saw nothing pro-Russia at all  but lots of talk about the situation. Very pro-Ukraine. 

*sigh* until one wackadoo posted this.  She is the only one I've seen express anything like this until her. 😡

Thanks for sharing. This is eye-opening. Eye-opening in the sense that people actual believe this, not eye-opening in the sense that it's true (because it's not) 😕

Edited March 8, 2022 by Longtime Lurker

[MercyA]

I will say that my church (anti-mandates, anti-masking, etc.) did pray for Ukraine (once), so that was personally encouraging to me. Hoping to hear it again.

Edited March 8, 2022 by MercyA

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

Are you Missouri Synod Lutheran? The reason I ask is that my experiences with MSL have always been entirely positive. Conservative? Yes. But not fundie, and not evangelical in the sense of mainstream evangelicalism. So it seems like the denomination is able to stand for very fruits of the spirit standards, very much all about the words of Christ, and not fall too easily for "trends" in thought.

As for locally, we have mostly seen "pray for Ukraine". But there have been outliers. I have a nephew who is pro-Putin, and it's all NATO's fault. A few posts from former co-workers that were not for Russia or against Ukraine per se. Instead calling for the immediate withdrawal from NATO and back to an isolationist policy so we won't be drawn into a war.

Yes, I am LCMS.  We are very conservative theologically, but not fundamentalist, and arguably not really Protestant per se.  Kind of a third alternative thing.

We have a focus on adiophora, meaning that there are things that the church doesn't take a position on because you could make a Gospel informed case for several sides, so it's unusual to have as specific a prayer as we did this week--for Ukraine, and specifically that they would have the resources to TCB.  I was glad to hear it, though a little surprised.  I hunted down the pastor afterwards to thank him, in case it had raised some eyebrows, but I think everyone prayed that prayer heartily together.

There is a sister church body of ours in Ukraine that is seeing some very tough times.  There has been an appeal for funds for churches elsewhere in Europe taking care of Ukrainian refugees, but I don't know whether we can actually get help into Ukraine or not.  It's such a dynamic situation.

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Carol in Cal.

[Mom_to3]

Russia is threatening to cut off gas supply to Europe according to The Guardian.

[MercyA]

34 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Yes, I am LCMS.  We are very conservative theologically, but not fundamentalist, and arguably not really Protestant per se.  Kind of a third alternative thing.

My brother and his family are now LCMS. It's been a good fit for them. I'm jealous that they take communion every week and have beer at Bible studies. 😉 

ETA: He is conservative theologically but not politically on many issues. 

Edited March 8, 2022 by MercyA

[vonfirmath]

At the service before the open war started, we prayed for Ukraine.  Our pastor introduced a new method of everyone praying together, but out loud, if comfortable and we've been doing that every week since. Last week our pastor went off his normal series to bring a relevant sermon and passed out ways we can pray for Ukraine on paper as we walked in.  We again had a time of prayer specifically for Ukraine this last Sundaya as well. We've had specific prayer for Ukraine at both of the most recent services. Our new pastor has been to Ukraine several times and I think it feels really personal to him.

Also at AWANAs we have prayed for the AWANA clubs and clubbers because outside of the US, Ukraine had the most AWANA clubs in the world.  So it feels pretty personal to our kids as well.

[AbcdeDooDah]

2 hours ago, Longtime Lurker said:

Wow.

Thanks for sharing. This is eye-opening. Eye-opening in the sense that people actual believe this, not eye-opening in the sense that it's true (because it's not) 😕

It's crazy. Thankfully, she's the only person I know who has express something like this, though I'm sure some just don't say it out loud.

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, MercyA said:

My brother and his family are now LCMS. It's been a good fit for them. I'm jealous that they take communion every week and have beer at Bible studies. 😉 

ETA: He is conservative theologically but not politically on many issues. 

These characteristics all vary from congregation to congregation, but alcohol is never regarded as inherently sinful even if it's not served at church.  I'd say politically conservative folks out number politically liberal ones but coexist better than in some other church bodies.  

I do love having communion every week.  During the shut down when we couldn't worship together at all, the pastors explicitly made themselves available for private communion.  I thought that that was very impressive given their resultant risks of contagion here where the numbers were so high then.  

[Ausmumof3]

4 hours ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I saw nothing pro-Russia at all  but lots of talk about the situation. Very pro-Ukraine. 

*sigh* until one wackadoo posted this.  She is the only one I've seen express anything like this until her. 😡

Not in Christian circles but there are reports of pro-Russian protestors here as well. And yes all linked up with Qanon covid is a myth type stuff. So apparently on some level the disinformation campaign is now serving a purpose beyond pure destabilisation. 

[Melissa in Australia]

hope it works this time

 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-08/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-updates-march-8/100890252

Ukrainian officials say evacuation of civilians underway in Sumy, Irpin

A Ukrainian presidential official says civilians are currently being evacuated from the Ukrainian cities of Sumy, in the country's north-east, and Iprin, near the capital Kyiv.

Earlier, news agency Interfax quoted Russia's defence ministry as saying Russian forces had held fire since 7:00am GMT (6:00pm AEST) to allow for humanitarian corridors.

 

 

[Melissa in Australia]

First convoy of evacuees leaves Ukrainian city of Sumy

A first convoy of residents and foreign students has now left the Ukrainian city of Sumy after an agreement with Russia on establishing a humanitarian corridor.

"We have already started the evacuation of civilians from Sumy to Poltava (in central Ukraine), including foreign students," the foreign ministry said in a tweet. "We call on Russia to agree on other humanitarian corridors in Ukraine."https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-08/russia-ukraine-war-invasion-updates-march-8/100890252

[Ausmumof3]

Ukraine say Russia are shelling the Mariupol humanitarian corridor. Hard to see the world stand by and watch this happen. 

[Ausmumof3]

Has anyone heard an update on which countries are taking refugees? There is apparently now 2 million and Australia had only offered to take 4,000 last I heard.

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Back for a minute to address Mercy's question. We used to be Orthodox Christians and knew plenty of homeschoolers. Most support Russia. The divide is that the Greeks and the Ukrainians (obviously) support Ukraine while the others support Russia by different degrees. 

This is a tweet from an Orthodox Christian homeschooling mother. 

The patriarch of the Russian church gave a sermon yesterday where he implied that the war was about gay rights.

Some Catholics also support Russia. This is from an article on LifeSiteNews. 

Sigh. I reacted to this with the confused face emoji, but I'm not really confused or surprised. It's right along the lines of what someone I'm friends with (IRL) posted on FB very recently. The posting wasn't specifically about Ukraine/Russia, but about history books being re-written with new facts when the old "facts" were never correct to begin with, etc., etc. I read the post several times and couldn't make it make sense, but then . . yeah. When I read it in light of the person's political/religious/conspiratorial leanings it was clearer to me it was more nuttery. FWIW, the person is a very well educated retired professional.

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Has anyone heard an update on which countries are taking refugees? There is apparently now 2 million and Australia had only offered to take 4,000 last I heard.

Ireland is planning to take in 100,000. Remarkable for such a small country. They know what it is to be occupied, and also to be displaced en masse. 

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Ukraine say Russia are shelling the Mariupol humanitarian corridor. Hard to see the world stand by and watch this happen. 

Agreed. My country has stood by and just shrugged its shoulders at so many absolute atrocities for decades, but bam, mess with oil, and we'll be in Kuwait or Iraq over night. 

[Carrie12345]

So, I learned a thing. Maybe this feels like common knowledge to others, but it wasn’t to me, lol.
And my source is Sen. Coon’s interview on CNN, for reference.

Apparently, we only get 6% of our oil from Russia (?), but oil is priced globally, so it doesn’t much matter, and it’s anticipated for barrels to double in price from what they are now, triggering a very real global energy crisis.

I’m making an effort to understand this better myself, but there are people here who are smarter than me who I hope feel free to share their ready understanding of that.

(Which may have already been done and I missed it.)

[Pam in CT]

brief off-topic re Things I Never Knew that I Learned at WTM:

9 hours ago, MercyA said:

My brother and his family are now LCMS. It's been a good fit for them. I'm jealous that they take communion every week and have beer at Bible studies. 😉 

ETA: He is conservative theologically but not politically on many issues. 

Wait. Beer at Bible study is a thing???!!

I have many questions.  I'll start with just one: what TIME is Bible Study?

 

Re US policy and price of oil & gas: There's a long version on which maybe Bootsie or chiguirre can weigh in. But the short version is:

Any commodity -- a thing that is essentially the pretty-much-the-same  no matter where it comes from (sugar, wheat, soy, coffee... copper, gold... oil, natural gas... etc) is traded on large interconnected global markets in which every country that sells, and every country that buys, participates. The price of the commodity is not "set" or negotiated by any one seller or buyer, but through an interactive process in which all the buyers and sellers participate in real time, kind of like an auction.  Big swings in supply (most famously like when OPEC curtailed supply in the 1970s), or when adverse weather substantially affects a crop in an important producing region for something like coffee) can cause a commodity price to spike suddenly; big swings in demand (arguably like COVID) or big shocks to critical transportation routes (like war) can cause prices to swing as well. But individual buyers and sellers have limited effect.

Once Russia's oil & gas physically makes it out of Russia, someone will buy it: it is fungible and usable and there are plenty of nations outside the current sanctions who need it; and that transaction will (more or less, SWIFT complicates a bit and may add a bit of cost to the transaction) take place at more-or-less the going market rate. Conversely, if the US cuts off purchases from Russia, we'll still have to purchase from somewhere else, again at more-or-less the going market rate. We are close to energy sufficient so our energy purchases, from whomever we get them, follow market prices rather than drive them.

 

 

 

Edited March 8, 2022 by Pam in CT

[mommyoffive]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

So, I learned a thing. Maybe this feels like common knowledge to others, but it wasn’t to me, lol.
And my source is Sen. Coon’s interview on CNN, for reference.

Apparently, we only get 6% of our oil from Russia (?), but oil is priced globally, so it doesn’t much matter, and it’s anticipated for barrels to double in price from what they are now, triggering a very real global energy crisis.

I’m making an effort to understand this better myself, but there are people here who are smarter than me who I hope feel free to share their ready understanding of that.

(Which may have already been done and I missed it.)

That is what I read yesterday too.  😞

US to ban Russian oil imports over Ukraine invasion (msn.com)

[Katy]

52 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

So, I learned a thing. Maybe this feels like common knowledge to others, but it wasn’t to me, lol.
And my source is Sen. Coon’s interview on CNN, for reference.

Apparently, we only get 6% of our oil from Russia (?), but oil is priced globally, so it doesn’t much matter, and it’s anticipated for barrels to double in price from what they are now, triggering a very real global energy crisis.

I’m making an effort to understand this better myself, but there are people here who are smarter than me who I hope feel free to share their ready understanding of that.

(Which may have already been done and I missed it.)

An “energy crisis” generally means a rapid drop in energy supply, the result being a rapid increase in energy price. The thing that makes (regulated) capitalism work best is cheap energy. 

The modern capitalist economy relies on extreme specialization. We manufacture everything wherever it is cheapest to do so. For example, we closed down most American textile factories in the 80’s. Fabric is woven overseas. Garments are sewn overseas. Getting those items to where they are consumed requires cheap energy to keep the items cheap. Cheap items mean everyone can have more stuff for less money. Essentially cheap energy makes it cheap to be rich.  

Even luxury items that claim to be made in France or Italy are 90% made in China and the final assembly and labeling steps are done in the place they are “made.” At least this is true for brands like Louis Vuitton (and most of the brands LVMH owns).  This is partially why their prices have skyrocketed.

When the price of energy skyrockets, it’s very difficult to get goods where they belong. This is true even when there are enough truck drivers and dock workers that imported goods are still cheap. In this circumstance it will be difficult for incomes to keep up with inflation. For the rich it might mean a short squeeze, but since most of their wealth is in the stock market or assets like real estate, over the long run this will be good for them. But for the poor rapid inflation is going to make life very difficult, at least in the short term. 

[TechWife]

14 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Some of the conservative Christians I know appear to be choosing to ignore the war completely. They're continuing to fully blame POTUS for gas price increases. No attempt at nuance, no acknowledgement of the war. Just blame. These aren't home schoolers, though.

Same here.

[Insertcreativenamehere]

I'm part of a Facebook group that is mostly homeschoolers but focuses on one particular teaching resource. A day or two into the Russian invasion of Ukraine, one person asked for resources on explaining the situation to children. Most people suggested pretty common sources -- CNN10, for example. One person suggested staying away from all mainstream media since they are promoting a false narrative. 🤷‍♀️

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

This is from an article on LifeSiteNews. 

That site. Sigh. I am pretty sure it's where the crazies I've been unfriending and unfollowing for the last two years hang out. 

8 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Not in Christian circles but there are reports of pro-Russian protestors here as well. And yes all linked up with Qanon covid is a myth type stuff. So apparently on some level the disinformation campaign is now serving a purpose beyond pure destabilisation. 

There are so many people that seem to believe basically every QAnon talking point while repudiating QAnon. I can't figure that group out.

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

brief off-topic re Things I Never Knew that I Learned at WTM:

Wait. Beer at Bible study is a thing???!!

I have many questions.  I'll start with just one: what TIME is Bible Study?

I hear it is a thing in the Young, Restless, and Reformed movement too. 

[Terabith]

2 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

brief off-topic re Things I Never Knew that I Learned at WTM:

Wait. Beer at Bible study is a thing???!!

I have many questions.  I'll start with just one: what TIME is Bible Study?

Bible studies can be held at any time of day, but the ones with beer or wine are almost always in the evening.  The ones in the morning are usually limited to coffee and water.  For awhile, I was part of a Theology on Tap group that met at a bar to chat about theological topics.  

[silver]

I've been avoiding facebook, but have gone on recently just to see if the Qanon crazies I know were posting in support of Russia. They're all really vocal on facebook about everything, but are strangely silent on this. I'm trying to figure out if Facebook is deleting their crazy posts or if they're finally having some cognitive dissonance with regards to the lies spewed by the cult they follow (which is saying Russia is doing good) vs what they know in their hearts to be true about Ukraine vs Russia. 

[Terabith]

Okay, I finally made it all the way through Molly McKew's essay.  Wow.  I am struck especially by her comment that Russia thrives on chaos because when there is chaos, Russia is willing to take risks and absorb failures that other nations will not, and that they can move through chaos more ably than their opponents.  I am convinced by her that we need to act, that not acting is injustice and that Russia will never be satisfied. 

And yet....the nukes.  

I don't know really how we reconcile those two things.  

I am just so glad Biden is the president in the White House.  I do feel like this is a crisis that plays well to his strengths.  And I am so glad that I am not in the White House.  

[Pawz4me]

24 minutes ago, Terabith said:

And I am so glad that I am not in the White House.  

I said the same thing to DH a few minutes ago. This is a situation for which there seems to be no good approach. It seems much more a case of "which approach is less bad." I don't envy anyone who has to make those decisions.

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

Bible studies can be held at any time of day, but the ones with beer or wine are almost always in the evening.  The ones in the morning are usually limited to coffee and water.  For awhile, I was part of a Theology on Tap group that met at a bar to chat about theological topics.  

I've had some pretty unusual opportunities to attend Ultra-Orthodox/Hasidic gatherings called "beer and shiur."

 Shiur, sounding like "sheer" and meaning Torah study. They tended to be more beer than shiur, but a bit of both.

Those black-hatters can be party animals. Who knew?

Bill

 

[Katy]

WaPo has an article about this, but the site itself is better.  Companies are doing whatever they can to get off this list: https://som.yale.edu/story/2022/over-200-companies-have-withdrawn-russia-some-remain

[Terabith]

3 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I've had some pretty unusual opportunities to attend Ultra-Orthodox/Hasidic gatherings called "beer and shiur."

 Shiur, sounding like "sheer" and meaning Torah study. They tended to be more beer than shiur, but a bit of both.

Those black-hatters can be party animals. Who knew?

Bill

 

Well, I mean, Purim and Simchat Torah....

[SKL]

I will say that I had one or two fb "friends" who started out sounding pro-Russia due to some crazy stuff that obviously came from bots, but after I commented about where that "info" most likely came from, they have not said it again.  Maybe they heard me and others.  It's been weeks since I saw any of that nonsense on my feed or on pages I follow.

One person I know IRL (and who is not on fb at all) started saying something about "why get involved in this war, there are other wars bla bla bla."  I didn't ask about her sources.  Maybe Tucker Carlson, whom I don't watch but whose program titles seem to lean that way.  I feel pretty strongly about this issue, so I said my piece and she didn't fight back, LOL.  I know more about Ukraine than she does (and not from the internet).

[prairiewindmomma]

23 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

Molly McKew's essay. 

(Ukraine-facing, not US-politics facing. She's lived in/done a lot of strategic consulting work for Georgia and the Baltics, particulary Estonia.)

I agree with the main points of her article:

1. Russia thrives in chaos, and has been creating chaos in a war with us that has been waged by them for years

&

2. Zelensky's messaging of we are at war with Putin and not with the Russian people is key

but I don't see how we can keep this as a war limited to Ukraine, with Putin as our only opponent.  Nuclear issues aside, and I realize that is a huge set of issues to put aside, this fight is also about how we as a world, collectively, handle things when one country (who has nukes) subsumes another.  This is also about China & Taiwan and India & Pakistan and all of the other wars on the horizon. 

I don't know enough or claim to ever know enough to know what we should do, but at some point we have got to address the fact that the US is a declining hegemon and the shifting power dynamics behind that and we can only hope to do that with as much grace and poise as UK did in how they set up mutually beneficial agreements with states with aligned interests.

[cintinative]

18 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

Some of the conservative Christians I know appear to be choosing to ignore the war completely. They're continuing to fully blame POTUS for gas price increases. No attempt at nuance, no acknowledgement of the war. Just blame. 

Someone close to me believes this and it's very hard

[Pawz4me]

MSNBC (TV) is reporting the same thing. Apparently Poland is prepared to send them to Ramstein for the U.S. to do with them "whatever they wish" (or some similar wording) --