Touchy-Feely Doctor... Should I Stay or Should I Go?

[easypeasy]

PLEASE DON'T QUOTE. And, this isn't a JAWM (because I don't even know how I feel about this... lol) but please be nice. 🙂 Doctors cause me enough stress as it is. 😄

Back story: I had a terrible experience (Iike many/most women) with a misogynistic family doctor several years ago and since then, have struggled to find a doctor that I can trust and/or tolerate. Finally found a GREAT one, but he was in his last year of residency at this office and after he finished... he began his own practice over 50 minutes away. I can't rationalize that kind of a trek for doctor's visits (I usually only really go for routine checkup and medication refill sort of appointments... if I'm sick, I usually go to urgent care because the doctor can rarely get me in when it's possible for me to make it on such short notice).

So, after "going through" three more sub-par doctors (rushed appointments, missed details, not notifying me re: "bad" test results, treatment that caused more damage, etc)... I'm at a crossroads with the most recent one.

He's older and works at a clinic that probably has mostly Medicaid patients. (I mention this only to say... he sees a LOT of patients - the place is packed every time I have gone recently & everyone seems to really like him. His nurses seem to like him quite a bit as well.). I chose him randomly and I've visited him twice - once for a new-patient exam and to have some bloodwork done and secondly to go over the bloodwork, new medications, MORE bloodwork and schedule the *next* visit, around 6 months from now (but due to the most recent bloodwork results... looks like I'll need to go back sooner than that).

So - due to those bloodwork results, it's looking like I could, for the first time ever, possibly have a new issue that is going to need routine maintenance and frequent doctor's visits.

This guy is SUPER nice. He speaks clearly and kindly and slowly. He makes great eye contact and sits relaxed, like he has all day to sit and listen to my ailments (lol). He stays on time. He is knowledgeable (his letter with my test results was honestly the most amazing thing I've gotten from a doctor. SO easy to understand and kindly worded and his office called me as well).

However. He's a "patter." First time, he'd asked why I've avoided going to the doctor for so long (my meds had run out... and I'd just avoided it...). When I explained that I just had trouble settling with a doctor, he patted/rubbed and squeeeeeeeeeezed my shoulder as he commiserated with me about the troubles of finding a doctor you can feel comfortable with.

Caught me so off guard, I nearly smacked him. Seriously. I was shocked I had such a strong reaction to such a traditionally "normal/nice" thing, but there it was. I was completely unprepared for my reaction.

At least three more times during that first visit warranted a shoulder pat/squeeze, back-pat/rub, and a thigh/leg squeeze. All while he continues talking mundanely about whatever he's doing. His actions were never inappropriate, his eyes were right on what he was attending to at the moment, etc. But - ACK!

Other odd thing was that ALL the doctor's I've visited in the past 5 years or so have had the nurse remain IN the room DURING the visit. Even for my kids! This doctor has no such thing - it's just the two of us in the room. I've had two appointments so far, and both were nearly identical. We chit-chat about normal things, and he has recommended excellent books to me both times on my way out the door.

So. I'm trying to figure out a) why I have such a strong, negative reaction to this and b) if I should once again change doctors. I don't want to because his office staff is so nice, their lab gets many results back to them THE VERY NEXT DAY, they do ALL The footwork with our insurance and answer any questions... it's been great compared to previous experiences and he's actually a knowledgeable doctor & he has already cracked a few issues I've had for years (that are turning out to be life-threatening if allowed to continue) that the others didn't bother to search out!

But, I really don't want to be touched/patted/squeezed even if he's just being nice! So, I need ideas (other than a shot of whiskey before the appointment!) to settle my nerves so I don't react so strongly and negatively to an innocent gesture.

(I will never, ever in a million years be able to tell him to NOT do that. I'll just change doctors again. Telling him that his actions (that are clearly intended as a kindness) make me uneasy is just not a thing I can do. I know I should feel able to do so... but my past-doctor history doesn't allow for me to have the ability to do that.)

Edited December 31, 2018 by easypeasy

[Jean in Newcastle]

Any chance that you could find a woman doctor?  

 

[easypeasy]

11 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Any chance that you could find a woman doctor?  

 

 

I could, but would be right back in the boat of random doctor-ness. Two of my most recent doctors have happened to be women, but they weren’t good doctors (for me), so I walked away without a second thought.

It would be easy to walk away here if I wasn’t actually receiving the best care I’ve gotten from a doctor’s office since my favorite guy finished his med rotation!

[RootAnn]

Any chance you can get yourself to ask for a nurse to stay in the room with you? Or, even better, bring someone else with you. - a close friend, relative, advocate.

I admit my spidey senses would be going off on that many pats/rubs/ squeezes. It doesn't seem right even though you are trying to convince yourself. If possible, have the friend calmly and politely say that .. golly, the Hive can word this better than me ... say that you feel uncomfortable with his gestures that are clearly meant to be comforting but make you uncomfortable. And always bring someone with you to appointments.

[J-rap]

Can you bring one of your kids in with you?  A sister?  Can your dh accompany you on your next visit?  

I would feel very uncomfortable with the leg/thigh squeeze, and even the shoulder rub.  That seems very inappropriate, especially this day and age, and even if they are truly meant to be comforting only.

Have you looked up reviews on him online?  

[Pawz4me]

The leg/thigh squeeze would likely have been over the line for me. That's . . . pretty personal. Maybe I'm weird, but I think of that area being much more off limits than shoulders. 

But . . I've never had a nurse stay while I was chatting with a doctor. Ever. Only for the female exam bits. They exit the second that's done.

[ktgrok]

I agree that the thigh squeeze is WEIRD. The shoulder thing, I was going to say maybe he's just touchy feely but that does seem odd. Does he deal with a lot of elderly who maybe like that? 

If you want to stay, could you talk to the nurse, rather than the doctor and ask them to put a note on your chart saying that you are not comfortable with patting or other physical gestures of comfort? You can smile and shrug and say you know it isn't a big deal, but you prefer to have more physical space. 

[Ausmumof3]

I wouldn’t go back.  That sounds awkward.

[HomeAgain]

I have similar issues.  In fact, my doctor now took note of my issues and put it in my file because I really cannot abide being touched like that by people I don't know and I have had doctors be too liberal with my body before I knew I could say no and set boundaries.
If you go back, speak up.  Bring someone with you or have a nurse in the room the whole time.  But don't sit there silently.

[Chris in VA]

Please please please don't allow this behavior. Trust yourself. Don't go back. Report him as inappropriate. I know this won't be popular. It is the thigh squeeze that puts it over the edge. 

[PeterPan]

I have a new to me, randomly chosen GP, because I hadn't been to a doctor (other than Urgent Care and the pulmonologist they begged me to go to) in 15+ years. The nurse does not remain in the room at this practice either, and they're not creeps, so that's not necessarily a deal-breaker. However the touching thing, I'd just move on on. You were fine till he said he touched your THIGH. I mean, good night, who does that??? We have some family friends who are very touchy feely. It's how they show love or how they just set you at ease if you look tired or whatever. So yeah they might walk up and give you a backrub, which is kinda weird (but nice once you get used to it, lol). But that family would NEVER touch a person's THIGH.

So toss the doc, move on. Your gut meter is going off and there could be more there. And yeah, I'd drive 50 minutes for a fresh out of residency doc you like! Or just shop around again locally. Well the 50 is rough, but 35 around here is pretty common.

I'm sorry it's bad. Definitely listen to your squig meter.

[PeterPan]

4 minutes ago, Chris in VA said:

Please please please don't allow this behavior. Trust yourself. Don't go back. Report him as inappropriate. I know this won't be popular. It is the thigh squeeze that puts it over the edge. 

This. That's how abusers roll, getting a position of trust and power and doing stuff. There was NO call for him to touch your thigh. 

[mom@shiloh]

You don't seem to have any good options here, so you'll probably just have to decide which is the least awful. 

Option #1: Work up the courage to tell him that you don't enjoy being touched.

Option #2: Find another doctor. This one seems less desirable to me for several reasons. You may not find one that you like and in the meantime, you have health needs that aren't being followed. When the new doctor sees that you've been jumping from doctor to doctor, I imagine that sets off some red flags to them and they may label you and not take your concerns seriously. 

I wouldn't especially appreciate the touchy/feely stuff either, but you should at least give him a chance. Many older people miss being touched, so it's possible this doctor has developed this habit and it may be truly comforting to many of his patients. You should give him the opportunity to make it right with you and not assume the worst about him. 

[Kanin]

30 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

This. That's how abusers roll, getting a position of trust and power and doing stuff. There was NO call for him to touch your thigh. 

I certainly wouldn't be comfortable being alone with this guy. Sorry. 😞 

[Ottakee]

That crosses the line.  I had a family doctor (I didn't see but my kids did) that we later found out had a long history (often covered up) of molestation.

How often do you need to go see a doctor?  Can you go to the one that is 50 minutes away?  I do that several times a year for my girls.  Not ideal, but doable.  If you have some chronic health issues that require a lot more frequent visits then I would look for someone local.  Do you have any local friends you can ask for who they recommend?  Or see if that resident you liked has suggestions in your area.  I would also consider a female nurse practitioner as your primary provider.  We LOVE the ones we have had and they often have more time in their schedules, can see you sooner, and might have a more holistic approach to your care.

[PeterPan]

8 minutes ago, mom@shiloh said:

Option #1: Work up the courage to tell him that you don't enjoy being touched.

I'm really surprised people are saying this. Creeps deny everything and then try to make YOU FEEL BAD that you even said anything about it. 

"Women perceive a touch on the leg, especially the upper leg, as sexual in nature and not asexual as a pat on the shoulder is perceived to be," Barkhurst said.

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/02/is_inappropriate_touching_sexu.html  

I'm sure if she digs, she'll find plenty. 

[solascriptura]

Leg and thigh squeezes are reserved for my dh only.  I would jet.  

[ktgrok]

yeah, the more I think about it, the more I just say you need  new doctor. Period. 

 

[BlsdMama]

I had an OB who was a patter who graduated to talking to me with his hand pretty high up on my thigh - creepy at any time but worse in a gown.  Later I had two questionable touches during two separate exams. The first one I really questioned myself.  But I figured the second time - not really a chance both were a heavy, accidental brush, kwim?  Refused to see him from that point on.  Saw his partner (and loved him) but that guy gave me the heebie jeebies.  I got to see him a year ago when he saw my sister who I begged not to see him.  (He dismissed our concerns of pre-term labor and the boys both died at 22 weeks, btw.)  

I'm bitter-  so there's that.
But, honestly?  Even if it's nothing? You don't trust him.  And that will overflow into your medical care.  I don't see how you can have a longterm relationship with him considering you'll second guess everything he says and does from this point, kwim?

[May]

I’d be looking for a different doctor. Trust your instincts on this.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I travel regularly to see doctors 45 minutes away so I wouldn't automatically rule out your former doctor.  It seems like he's worth it. 

[school17777]

Just watched The Hand that Rocked the Cradle on Friday.  Just pointing out there’s a movie that starts with a similar incident happening at the dr’s appointment.  

He makes you feel uncomfortable which could affect your health because you may avoid going to the doctor because of it.  I’d keep searching for a new doctor.  

We do drive almost an hour for some appointments.

[Lanny]

I haven't read the replies, but I did read the OP.  As a man, husband, and father of a daughter, there is NO WAY that I would want my wife or my daughter to consider going to a doctor like that.

OP I suggest that you go to the doctor you really like, who is now a 50 minute drive each way. It is not like you will be going there every day. It is occasional. It may be a PITA. But it will be worth the time and money that you spend commuting to/from his office.

[mathnerd]

I would go to the doctor 50 minutes away, if I were you. Even if this current guy is really only a nice guy, if you feel uncomfortable, don’t go! It does not matter if he is a popular doctor, you have to find one that makes you comfortable.

ps: I travel 30 minutes to get a flu shot because I feel comfortable going to a particular clinic for it.

Edited December 31, 2018 by mathnerd

[Spryte]

You need a different doc.

If you live your old doc, why not drive?

FWIW, I see my long term family practice doc for routine care (my care requires 3 month checks, so more than annual) - and she’s 2 hours away.  She’s worth it.

Sick visits are at the urgent care.

[moonflower]

go

[AmandaVT]

I'd leave and possibly report the behavior. I may be overreacting though because I was a gymnastics coach for years and the Larry Nassar scandal is just too fresh in my head. That's exactly how he behaved - he would touch the gymnasts, in an increasingly inappropriate fashion, all while doing "doctorly" things. He would molest the gymnasts while the parents were sitting right in the room and no one would be the wiser because of his casual behavior and strategic body/towel placement. 

 

[Ottakee]

5 minutes ago, AmandaVT said:

I'd leave and possibly report the behavior. I may be overreacting though because I was a gymnastics coach for years and the Larry Nassar scandal is just too fresh in my head. That's exactly how he behaved - he would touch the gymnasts, in an increasingly inappropriate fashion, all while doing "doctorly" things. He would molest the gymnasts while the parents were sitting right in the room and no one would be the wiser because of his casual behavior and strategic body/towel placement. 

 

Exactly.  Molesters are masters at this.....and often make you/the victim question if it "really" happened.

[Alicia64]

I see a lot of doctors these days because I'm trying to get a handle on two issues that have annoyed me for too long.

None of the doctors I've seen ever touched me in any way. (The only person to touch me was the person doing a blood draw.)

If you like your dr. who is 50 minutes away, I'd go to him. Or keep asking friends, family and neighbors for good referrals. Or go onto the CityData forum for your city. I've found doctors that way. When I need a new dr. I ask anyone I trust for a referral.

Bottom line: your intuition is trying to signal to you that something doesn't feel right. Trust your gut.

Alley

[Laurie4b]

Here are the red flags: 

 While it can help some patients to be touched appropriately*, that touch should never be done without taking into account the patient's body langauge. Most people won't speak up the first appointment if they've never had a bad experience, especially if the touch is at all  ambiguous as in your case. Looking away while touching is therefore a red flag. He wasn't gauging your reaction; he was avoiding your reaction. He was going to do what he was going to do. 

(* e.g. There was a research study I read long ago in which the anesthesiologist simply introduced self to one set of patients, and touched the hand of another set. The ones who received the brief touch needed less anesthesia) 

Other red flags: 

Number of touching incidents

Rubbing, not brief touch

Squeezing leg/thigh : not appropriate at all.

If he did all this at the first appointment, I think it's likely he'd build up to more invasive things over time. Higher touch on the thigh, "accidentally" grazing the breast on the way to a shoulder rub, etc. At that point, the patient's "line" will have moved from not expecting that kind of touch at all to accepting what was previously ambiguous as the baseline. The new touch would then be ambiguous from the baseline. Hope that makes sense. 

I would report it to the state medical board and not just the practice. Tell the practice why you are leaving and describe the incidents to the state medical board. Your report may provide corroborating information to someone else's report in which he went further. 

Edited January 1, 2019 by Laurie4b

[Carol in Cal.]

Creepy and OTT.  Trust your gut.

Go somewhere else.  

Or, if you feel you must stay with him, do not allow him to treat your children, especially the girls.  And take someone else into the room with you when you're with him.

But really, leave.

[Liz CA]

It's hard to know from the description. I am hearing (or rather reading) more that you have bad history and a lot of this naturally colors your perception. Older physicians or just simply certain personalities may think it's comforting to be squeezed or patted. I don't want to immediately call him inappropriate but only you can know for sure if it's more of your reaction or if it's not right. 

I may give it another chance since he seems to be helping you, however, can you move away from him or are these things happening when you are more or less confined to an exam table? I rarely sit on an exam table at my doc's but mostly across the desk so I really have to ask.  

If he realizes that you are flinching back or avoiding the patting and he stops, then he may have realized it's not comforting / reassuring to you. If he persists, then I would definitely change physicians despite the fact that it can be a tiring task to find someone who is competent and with whom you can communicate effectively.

Oh, and bringing someone else in with you would be very helpful, I think.

Edited December 31, 2018 by Liz CA

[livetoread]

I would give him another chance, but only after saying at the beginning of my next appointment, “I think you should know I had a bad experience with another doctor and I’m uncomfortable with casual touching like pats and stuff and don’t feel comforted by it. I appreciate that lots of people do, but I don’t. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it, but it stresses me,” and then see what his reaction is. You aren’t accusing him of anything. If he’s a good, kind doctor who just wants to relate, he’ll appreciate the info and stop doing it. He’ll ask before he touches you for an exam. If he gets defensive or still does it, you have your answer. 

I think it is important to set that boundary, and if you don’t want to (understandable), then I would not go back. If you continue to see him you will be patted and squeezed while suffering, or even worse, if he is a predator, he might sense you are uncomfortable but not saying anything which telegraphs easier victim.

[Selkie]

A 50 minute drive to see a great doctor sounds like a good deal to me. We regularly drive that far for decent health care.

[TechWife]

I think he is exhibiting grooming behavior. He's trying to see what he can get away with. I wouldn't go back.

[LMD]

A big part of good medical care is autonomy/consent. None of my doctors touch my body without explicit consent or emergency. They always ask/check, "now I just need to do x,y,z, is that okay?"

A good but touchy feely doctor would see your discomfort and respect your boundaries, a good touchy feely doctor would know that trust is built up over time and respect your boundaries. 

I could maybe see a hand hold if you'd just had life changing news and were sobbing your heart out. 

Also, I travel more than 90mins for a good doctor that I trust.

[Frances]

7 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'm really surprised people are saying this. Creeps deny everything and then try to make YOU FEEL BAD that you even said anything about it. 

"Women perceive a touch on the leg, especially the upper leg, as sexual in nature and not asexual as a pat on the shoulder is perceived to be," Barkhurst said.

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2013/02/is_inappropriate_touching_sexu.html  

I'm sure if she digs, she'll find plenty. 

Well if he reacts like you predict, then I assume she would never ever go back. If, on the other hand, he is very understanding and apologetic, maybe it really is innocent.

[SereneHome]

I understand this is not JAWM thread, but I think only you can determine if you want to stay.  It would drive me CRAZY to have such a doctor.  First, I wouldn't want to be touched. Second, I would explode from him speaking "nice and slowly".  I need someone who can be blunt, straight to the point, and someone I can argue with, if needed it.

To your other points - I have never had a nurse in the room during any visits, myself or kids.  And ironically I noticed that the more I like the doctor, the less I like their staff.  It's true for my OBGYN and our family practitioner.

OP, I wish you the bestest and goodest luck in this bc I think we all know how hard it is to find the right doctor for ourselves.  But I am thinking you will be changing doctors again....

Oh and I found the doctors that we really like by nothing but G-d's providence.  Seriously.  Just a name on the insurance website.  But the ones we "interviewed" turned out horribly.

[Liz CA]

34 minutes ago, LMD said:

A big part of good medical care is autonomy/consent. None of my doctors touch my body without explicit consent or emergency. They always ask/check, "now I just need to do x,y,z, is that okay?"

 

 

This is my experience as well.

[LMD]

36 minutes ago, Frances said:

Well if he reacts like you predict, then I assume she would never ever go back. If, on the other hand, he is very understanding and apologetic, maybe it really is innocent.

Or, he pretends to be understanding and apologetic as part of gaslighting...

Also, building an excellent community reputation is part of grooming in many situations.

[LMD]

All that said, if the service is really excellent and urgent and the alternative options unworkable, I might be willing to just suck it up for a while - but doing what I need to to maintain my boundaries. Bringing a witness to appointments for a start.

[TheReader]

One thing to consider as well; now that this doctor has identified the issue that's been baffling you, and it's in your medical record, you will not be going to whatever new doctor (or back to the 50 minutes away doctor) unarmed. You will have the new medical records, with the new diagnosis of the long-ignored problem; you will have the proposed treatment plan from Dr Touchy Feely; you will not be starting from zero and having to convince New Doctor to believe you, figure out the cause, etc. So perhaps leaving/switching again won't be quite as difficult as before, now that the problem has a name. 

I can't speak to whether or not you should leave, but did want to point out, as  you're debating, one of the larger hurdles has already been cleared so going forward, things should be easier. Best of luck to you as you decide. 

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, Frances said:

Well if he reacts like you predict, then I assume she would never ever go back. If, on the other hand, he is very understanding and apologetic, maybe it really is innocent.

 

11 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Creeps deny everything and then try to make YOU FEEL BAD that you even said anything about it. 

Actually you're saying what I said. That is how predators roll. They apologize and say it was all innocent and you then feel bad that you made this accusation against this nice, community respected person. Does his apology mean anything? No, it means he's a perv who is willing to apologize to cover his tracks. You think predators go oh yeah, you got me?? That's absurd. They apologize like slick willies and then you're left squirming thinking you had no right to feel uncomfortable there and that it all ought to be over.

It's not over. The guy is older and he knew exactly what he was doing and exactly what the standards were for his profession. These are highly litigious fields with insurance out the wazoo. He knew exactly what he was doing, and apologizing just means you're then supposed to say it was fine, which it WASN'T.

Sorry, been around the block on this.

[J-rap]

On 12/31/2018 at 5:10 AM, Pawz4me said:

The leg/thigh squeeze would likely have been over the line for me. That's . . . pretty personal. Maybe I'm weird, but I think of that area being much more off limits than shoulders. 

But . . I've never had a nurse stay while I was chatting with a doctor. Ever. Only for the female exam bits. They exit the second that's done.

I've never had a nurse stay either, even for the female exam bits.  But then, we live in a small town and have limited doctors and nurses, I suppose.

[StephanieZ]

50 min each way is nothing.

I commuted 90 min each way daily for 18 months for my first job out of college. 

I commuted 90 min each way weekly with THREE KIDS in tow (ages toddler to 7 when we started . . . did this for several years) for MUSIC LESSONS. Sometimes, we even went twice a week if there was a performance, etc. 

Go back to the DR that is 50 min away. Rearrange your schedule and prioritize getting there. Just do it. 

This DR may just be clueless. Or, he may be a predator. Either way, he's clearly NOT a good fit for YOU. 

[gardenmom5]

it's not professional behavior, even if it 'seems' friendly.   do you 'hear' your "gut"?  what does it say?

how many options for a provider do you have in your area?

[gardenmom5]

I just want to add - I had a dr who I felt was giving me better than average care. . . . . the more I got to know her etc., I realized I was a cash cow, and the quality of care really wasn't very good.  (she refused to treat a sinus infection becasue she didn't believe I had one - three months later, I was in claiming I had a kidney infection - and her partner was extremely skeptical.  my symptoms were classic - and my temp was 102+  (i do NOT run temps.  like hardly ever.).  finally gave me a rx for an appropriate antibiotic for a kidney infection - the gunk started pouring out of my sinuses.

she also required me to come in every three months for blood tests for thyroid dosage, and would only renew a rx if you came in.  standard of care for stable thyroid is once a year.

I eventually left that practice - and did what I've never done before.  left a very nasty review on yelp.

[gardenmom5]

do consider - the fact this is bothering you like this, may well be your gut telling you to move on.

 

mom gut isn't just for "mom's".  sometimes it's for us.

[gardenmom5]

On 12/31/2018 at 1:21 AM, RootAnn said:

Any chance you can get yourself to ask for a nurse to stay in the room with you?    Or, even better, bring someone else with you. - a close friend, relative, advocate.

I admit my spidey senses would be going off on that many pats/rubs/ squeezes. It doesn't seem right even though you are trying to convince yourself. If possible, have the friend calmly and politely say that .. golly, the Hive can word this better than me ... say that you feel uncomfortable with his gestures that are clearly meant to be comforting but make you uncomfortable. And always bring someone with you to appointments.

 

On 12/31/2018 at 1:54 AM, J-rap said:

Can you bring one of your kids in with you?  A sister?  Can your dh accompany you on your next visit?  

I would feel very uncomfortable with the leg/thigh squeeze, and even the shoulder rub.  That seems very inappropriate, especially this day and age, and even if they are truly meant to be comforting only.

Have you looked up reviews on him online?  

 

I just want to remind people - larry nasser didn't let the fact the parents of the girls he was molesting was IN THE ROOM WITH THEM stop him from molesting them!

if your gut (or as others call it "spidey sense") is objecting (which is what is sounds like) - listen to it.  we have it for a reason.

Edited January 1, 2019 by gardenmom5

[twovetteslater]

Definitely trust your gut; that thigh squeeze is **way** too friendly. Also, no one else being in the room raises huge flags as well.

I was sexually abused as a child, and I go out of my way to only see female doctors whenever possible. 

(didn't mean to use bold)

Edited January 1, 2019 by twovetteslater