Religion, loneliness, and family

[lovinmyboys]

Haha I didn’t know what to title this. I got into a “discussion” with my parents today and probably changed our relationship forever. I basically told them (really simplifying) that Trump and American Christianity’s response to him has made me stop taking my children to church. 
 

Then my dad said I must have made liberal friends and I just want to be cool for them. It just really aggravated me because he has no idea what it is like to not support Trump and homeschool. (Again all simplified conversation). 
 

I hope this isn’t too political. I am just feeling really lonely-which I have for a few years. I don’t really have any friends locally and my family, who also isn’t local, is a very strained relationship. We are moving overseas in a few months, so I really don’t care, but I still sorta do. I just feel like I fit nowhere- a Christian who thinks bad behavior is wrong even if Trump does it. 
 

It is more than loneliness though. I feel like I have no community and no direction for raising my kids. It seems like everything I was taught was all lies and now in middle age I have to figure it all out alone (and with Dh I guess).

[Pawz4me]

Hugs. It's hard.

[Scarlett]

Not exactly in your shoes…,but getting to middle age and feeling unmoored is very disconcerting.  So,sorry.  

[cintinative]

I'm afraid this will get deleted for being political, but 

I did not vote for Trump either time and I am a Christian.  We have seen a massive entanglement of the "evangelical" church with politics, and I have felt a lot of sadness about it. 

You are not alone. I just want you to know you are not the only believer who feels this way.  Don't give up on God. Try to find your people--we do exist--and many of us also have been accused of being "liberal" because we didn't vote for Trump and promoted love for others during the pandemic.  It's really hard. I totally know.  My husband is among those who think I am crazy and overexposed to liberal thinking. 

The most important thing is your relationship with God, your devotion to Him, and holding fast to the truth revealed in His Word. We knew persecution would come. It has come.  Hold fast to the Lord. 

 

 

[Jaybee]

I understand. Instead of "a man without a country" I feel like "a woman without a community." I do have hopes that I will find my tribe again someday, but it may not be where I currently live. Meanwhile, I am trying to concentrate on the things I can control--being kind to all types, not getting drawn in, and not venting to those around me.

[ScoutTN]

You are not alone. 
Many Christians are not Trump supporters. Me. 
Many Christian homeschoolers are not Trump supporters. 
 

Sorry you've lost community! That's really hard.
Praying that your  time overseas is fabulous! Will you return to the same place you are now?

[lauraw4321]

Listen to Holy Post podcast. At a minimum you’ll feel less alone. 

[Scarlett]

My disconnect has nothing to do with Trump or politics……sometimes life just gets hard. 

[fairfarmhand]

Start listening to the Holy Post Podcast. David French is another writer who shares your views.

You are not alone. There are many Christians who are like you.

[freesia]

If it’s any encouragement, you may have an easier time overseas. Ex-par communities are often welcoming, the local people expect you to be different and overseas Christians often find American brand Christian culture baffling and wonder why American Christians support Trump. 

[desertflower]

I'm sorry that the last few years has separated you from your friends and family.  Just putting it out there, hopefully to make you feel better, but I'm a Christian and not a trump supporter.  That evangilical group is just the loudest.  I have many Christian friends who are not Trump supporters.  Now Rosie may have to edit me.  Haha 

Seriously, though I think we can say who we support.  Just can't say anything about their policies. 

But I said this to make you feel better.  Sending *hugs*.

I hope you find a new life where you are going. 

[MercyA]

You are not alone! Right there with you. 

It's pretty sad when loving your neighbor and refusing to support wickedness makes you an outcast. 

Take courage! You are in the right. 

Sending you .

ETA: My husband always says we can only speak the truth. What others do with that is up to them.

Edited March 7, 2022 by MercyA

[Sneezyone]

Enjoy your time overseas. I think you will find it renewing and comforting. That is all.

[scholastica]

You are not alone. I agree with the David French recommendation. Listening to the Good Faith podcast has helped so much. And Gloria Purvis, she is so helpful to me as a Catholic.

[ScoutTN]

The World and Everything In It podcast is also good. Thoughtful, balanced news coverage from a Christian perspective. 

[Grace Hopper]

1 hour ago, ScoutTN said:

The World and Everything In It podcast is also good. Thoughtful, balanced news coverage from a Christian perspective. 

https://currentpub.com/2021/11/19/marvin-olasky-discusses-his-resignation-from-world-magazine/
 

https://religionnews.com/2021/11/18/marvin-olasky-survived-trump-as-world-magazine-editor-but-not-hot-takes/

 

I used to be a daily listener but now only occasionally… and carefully. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Grace Hopper

[kbutton]

In the same boat, except I don’t feel like what I’ve been taught is a lie. I feel like it brought me here, and I don’t know why the others didn’t arrive in the same place. They departed from their values. 

I am not sure of my response from here on out, but I was surprised to learn that Spurgeon felt so strongly about slavery that he would not have communion with slaveholders. Not to diminish the seriousness of slavery at all, but it was striking to me that his reputation has survived in spite of such a divisive stand.

It gives me some hope about our current moment if we hold fast.

https://www.spurgeon.org/resource-library/blog-entries/the-reason-why-america-burned-spurgeons-sermons-and-sought-to-kill-him/

 

[Lisa]

I did not support the last President. I am a conservative, Christian who homeschools. I go to a large evangelical church and there are people on both sides of the political fence at our church. You are not alone. Try some different churches and find one you are comfortable with. Hugs!

[Lisa]

1 hour ago, Grace Hopper said:

https://currentpub.com/2021/11/19/marvin-olasky-discusses-his-resignation-from-world-magazine/
 

https://religionnews.com/2021/11/18/marvin-olasky-survived-trump-as-world-magazine-editor-but-not-hot-takes/

 

I used to be a daily listener but now only occasionally… and carefully. 

Oh I didn't know this. We used to get World magazine and really liked it, but quit about a year ago after they made some changes we didn't care for.  They were one conservative source that didn't support the previous President.

[J-rap]

Yep, you're not alone!  There are many of us here like you.  I'm sorry you feel so alone though right now.

My guess is that when you go overseas, it'll be a lot different.  At least from my experience living overseas, Christian nationalism doesn't seem nearly as strong outside of the USA.  

I'd recommend you read Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd.  It's not political (Republicans vs Democrats).  It's a very Gospel-centered message about why we are called to live our faith "outside" of politics.  It has really helped me know better how to talk about Christian nationalism with fellow Christians, in a way that doesn't feel like I'm taking sides.  

In the meantime, I'd recommend that you try and compartmentalize this particular subject with your parents (for now).  Just close that compartment when you talk with them, and focus on things you have in common.  (That's what I do with one of my siblings, and it does help.  We've been able to maintain our relationship and be there for each other.... maybe opening the door to more important conversations down the road.)

It'll get better!

[Resilient]

CS Lewis talked about this a long time ago: Anytime you have "Christianity and..." ... (add a zillion "ands") pretty soon, the And takes over....but in a Trojan horse way.  

In the 60s-70s, it was the mainlines with Christianity and... (liberal politics)

In the 80s-90, it was the evangelicals with Christianity and... (conservative politics)

This is just the latest iteration.  I personally have borne the losses of both of the above...

The problem we have won't be solved by politics or laws or personalities.  It is ontological, and it is about who we are.

Seek Christ.  Follow Him.  See if you can obey His commandments and take Him seriously. No "ands."  Find others to walk with you.  Ask me how I know.  (Or don't.)  

I'm sorry for this struggle but I believe it is a worthy one, and I hope you will contend...not with your family, but with Christ.  Who are You?

[SKL]

I agree with the separation of church and state.  Many churches are pretty good at living that, though that may depend on where you live.

As far as political differences among family and friends, I wish people could just respect each other's opinions (or ignore them) rather than put relationships on the line.  I wonder if the unusual physical separation of the past two years has made this more difficult.  But anyway, I hope your family's feelings soften and you find your community for the long run.

[Frances]

37 minutes ago, SKL said:

I agree with the separation of church and state.  Many churches are pretty good at living that, though that may depend on where you live.

As far as political differences among family and friends, I wish people could just respect each other's opinions (or ignore them) rather than put relationships on the line.  I wonder if the unusual physical separation of the past two years has made this more difficult.  But anyway, I hope your family's feelings soften and you find your community for the long run.

Some differences can’t be ignored because they are too fundamental and important and cross a line. People ignoring or even condoning things that instead should be called out and condemned is how we end up things like the events of 1/6/21 and way too many covid deaths. And it’s especially heinous when it’s purposely intertwined with religion in order to try and justify and defend the indefensible.

I’m not saying people should end relationships over political differences. But it is important to stand up and speak up for what is right and true. Many of the political differences today are over facts vs fiction (lies, propaganda, misinformation, conspiracy theories), not different opinions or approaches as in the past. In many very important cases we can’t even agree on a basic set of facts so that different opinions can then be discussed and respected. The political landscape of the last six years is fundamentally different and I don’t know if we will ever be able to get back to just having different opinions, but generally agreeing on important, basic facts, truths, and principles. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Frances

[SoCal_Bear]

You aren't alone. I know what I am now. I am a dissenter. I count myself with the crew at Holy Post, Russell Moore, Beth Moore, David Brooks, David French, Ed Stetzer...all those voices speaking out.

This is something I have spent a great deal of the last two years thinking and praying about how to move forward proactively in a positive constructive way. If you can't read this NYT article look below for a google drive link.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/04/opinion/evangelicalism-division-renewal.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220204&instance_id=52126&nl=the-morning&regi_id=128411341&segment_id=81611&te=1&user_id=0ea3eb00b361f6827f549c1f1b5915c2&fbclid=IwAR07mq9vUskdBbxtLcT22S6J1wmPRgCouevdbX5v-8eT5WbfMINSxGvAPoc

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gCssWMrK3vFv2xX88xzdQWD53zs_o5zm6q9pfnh4bTU/edit?fbclid=IwAR30iQEyIzNwKxNJ2MX5UlkwHZB47DUftzkrFcBMzqU0dTBoBawhW6RxXAk

This was a interesting and insightful article from Russell Moore
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2022/february-web-only/christian-theology-evangelicalism-cannot-save-us.html
 

This was such an insightful conversation between Russell Moore and David Brooks of NYT. At the beginning, David Brooks says something about how we have moved from a society of moral relativism when we have eschewed ever passing judgment to a place now of extreme judgment. He posits this idea that we have now left the age of the moral individual and moved into an age of tribalism so that on social media there is understanding nowhere but judgment everywhere.

His remarks about the 60 cycle moral convulsion cycle in American was especially interesting to think about because we tend to amplify our present circumstances and not see things in the context of a history. What is happening now has happened before. It just hasn't happened in my lifetime and not in the age of social media and 24 hour media.

I thought his thoughts about the future of the church in America becoming more global and more multicultural was thought provoking especially as I am personally working on developing and new models of ministry and engagement. I believe in the Church and the mission of the Church. I just recognize that there are too many churches and ministries (and yes people) that have lost sight of the mission.

You might not agree with all that David Brooks has to say, but he does give a lot to pause and think about.

 

 

[73349]

*hugs*

Depending on where you live, you may be able to find a church that feels right to take your kids to.

The pandemic feels like a cliff in the decline of community that's been going on my whole lifetime.

[Bambam]

12 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

I basically told them (really simplifying) that Trump and American Christianity’s response to him has made me stop taking my children to church

Said gently, I don't determine my course through life based on what a vocal few do. 
There are many Christians who have not jumped on the Trump bandwagon. Just because some do, does not mean all do. 
It is hard, but we are only responsible for what we do/say. IMHO, we should watch what we expose our young children too, surely you can find another congregation where this isn't a big issue? I know it isn't at ours. At all. 

But I understand not wanting to be associated with specific groups whose ideas you do not agree with.  But I don't think you can lump all Christians into this particular group. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Bambam

[Dmmetler]

I have realized that if I filter churches based on other issues that are important to me, I also find ones where while everyone may not be of my political stripe, those who are not are at least tolerant of different views. 

One thing about COVID I have honestly loved is that it is possible to visit churches without having to go into the building at all. And, honestly, for me, if you still have virtual services vs trying to push people to be in the pews, that is a pretty big tell right there. 

[Soror]

(hugs)

I didn't really talk about religion with my parents or politics for years. I knew we had different beliefs and just avoided the topic. It came out a couple of years ago when dd1 became vocally anti-Trump, liberal. Of course, my Mom made comments to me about it. Funny thing is she said the same thing to me about her- she must have been influenced/pushed into those beliefs. Maybe this is some common right-wing belief that leftists are trying to force people into their beliefs, nobody really believes this way. I don't get it. I didn't talk to Mom in depth about it. Enough for her to know my beliefs were much more aligned with dd's and liberals than hers. (Ironically my parents aren't church goers at all- they went off/on when I was young but haven't went in years- they align themselves with Christians but are not practicing in anyway, there is too much collusion of religion and politics). 

That put a wedge in our relationship as Mom couldn't help but constantly dropping comments. Most of the little things she'd say would be flat out false or twisted- things trying to "convert" me. It seems hard for them to accept that we just leave that out of the conversation. I've done it for years- there are plenty of things to talk about besides political crap. Besides the fact that the relationship has been very one-sided for many years with me initiating 95% of phone calls and 100% of visits- you add in the political stuff and it makes it even less worth my effort to try and keep it going. The current political climate has radicalized them so far from where they were. They've decided their beliefs are more important than relationships.

[Grace Hopper]

5 hours ago, Frances said:

Some differences can’t be ignored because they are too fundamental and important and cross a line. People ignoring or even condoning things that instead should be called out and condemned is how we end up things like the events of 1/6/21 and way too many covid deaths. And it’s especially heinous when it’s purposely intertwined with religion in order to try and justify and defend the indefensible.

I’m not saying people should end relationships over political differences. But it is important to stand up and speak up for what is right and true. Many of the political differences today are over facts vs fiction (lies, propaganda, misinformation, conspiracy theories), not different opinions or approaches as in the past. In many very important cases we can’t even agree on a basic set of facts so that different opinions can then be discussed and respected. The political landscape of the last six years is fundamentally different and I don’t know if we will ever be able to get back to just having different opinions, but generally agreeing on important, basic facts, truths, and principles. 

I like what was said upthread about compartmentalizing when it comes to necessary relationships, such as family (particularly elders who may need assistance as they age). However, I also agree with points Frances made. I can do my best to get along, but when the differences between us go to the root of Christian faith, it’s never going to be a friendship that grows deep. Solid relationships require trust. I don’t think close friends have to agree on everything but I have to be able to trust that someone is at least reading the same Bible as me (iykwim). 
 

5 hours ago, calbear said:

You aren't alone. I know what I am now. I am a dissenter. I count myself with the crew at Holy Post, Russell Moore, Beth Moore, David Brooks, David French, Ed Stetzer...all those voices speaking out.

This is something I have spent a great deal of the last two years thinking and praying about how to move forward proactively in a positive constructive way. If you can't read this NYT article look below for a google drive link.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/04/opinion/evangelicalism-division-renewal.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20220204&instance_id=52126&nl=the-morning&regi_id=128411341&segment_id=81611&te=1&user_id=0ea3eb00b361f6827f549c1f1b5915c2&fbclid=IwAR07mq9vUskdBbxtLcT22S6J1wmPRgCouevdbX5v-8eT5WbfMINSxGvAPoc

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gCssWMrK3vFv2xX88xzdQWD53zs_o5zm6q9pfnh4bTU/edit?fbclid=IwAR30iQEyIzNwKxNJ2MX5UlkwHZB47DUftzkrFcBMzqU0dTBoBawhW6RxXAk

This was a interesting and insightful article from Russell Moore
https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2022/february-web-only/christian-theology-evangelicalism-cannot-save-us.html
 

This was such an insightful conversation between Russell Moore and David Brooks of NYT. At the beginning, David Brooks says something about how we have moved from a society of moral relativism when we have eschewed ever passing judgment to a place now of extreme judgment. He posits this idea that we have now left the age of the moral individual and moved into an age of tribalism so that on social media there is understanding nowhere but judgment everywhere.

His remarks about the 60 cycle moral convulsion cycle in American was especially interesting to think about because we tend to amplify our present circumstances and not see things in the context of a history. What is happening now has happened before. It just hasn't happened in my lifetime and not in the age of social media and 24 hour media.

I thought his thoughts about the future of the church in America becoming more global and more multicultural was thought provoking especially as I am personally working on developing and new models of ministry and engagement. I believe in the Church and the mission of the Church. I just recognize that there are too many churches and ministries (and yes people) that have lost sight of the mission.

You might not agree with all that David Brooks has to say, but he does give a lot to pause and think about.

 

 

These articles are great, I think I linked the NYT David Brooks piece in another thread back in February when it was first published (Feb 4 if y’all are Google searching it, NYT is firewalled, you may need to register for a free limited subscription). 
 

One of the recent David French podcasts (Good Faith, maybe?), the topic of Christian Nationalism is discussed. I was encouraged to hear the interviewer, apparently an east coast resident, say that he didn’t really have experience with Christian Nationalism since it seems to be more of a regional thing, in the middle states and southeast (ie, not on the coasts). I think it’s more widespread, with pockets everywhere, but it was reassuring to me that there are people/areas not struggling with it. 
 

My dh is invested in our current church, which, though not without dissenters, did a good job during covid. I have been pricked over its lack of diversity, and there are a number of people I know have spoken out in negative ways over issues regarding race relations, politics, immigration and refugee issues. I have committed to continue attending through mid year, but wow my radar is set on sensitive mode these days. I feel like every conversation is an interview as I listen carefully for statements indicating which way people lean on certain issues. Even people I’ve known for years have surprised me. 
 

And I am wondering about husbands and wives attending different churches. I think I’ll begin a spin-off thread for that. 
 

Hugs to you, OP. I hope and believe that you will find a different mindset overseas. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by Grace Hopper

[Grace Hopper]

25 minutes ago, 73349 said:

*hugs*

Depending on where you live, you may be able to find a church that feels right to take your kids to.

The pandemic feels like a cliff in the decline of community that's been going on my whole lifetime.

I mourn the missed opportunity the pandemic gave us, gave the church in America. Perfect time to press a huge reset button, to jump off the celebrity clergy, entertainment and political bandwagons and pursue genuine faith. Sadly I feel in the desire to “return to normal,” the same old engine just got revved up stronger. I am sad. 

[HS Mom in NC]

It's really hard.  I'm sorry you're going through it too. You're not alone, you're dispersed. Many of us are.

Leaving Evangelicalism last year for conservative Mainline Protestantism helped me. It's not an exact fit on secondary doctrinal issues, but it's a solid fit on primary doctrinal issues.

Weekly I can find kindred spirits listening to The Holy Post podcasts, The Roys Report Podcasts, and David French articles.

Books on the topic include:
Immoral Majority
Jesus and John Wayne
Myth of  a Christian Nation

I get the family thing. I've had to shut down outrageously uncivil conversation for a few years now.  We're flying back in a couple of weeks for a week long visit.  Not looking forward to it. 

[BlsdMama]

13 hours ago, cintinative said:

I'm afraid this will get deleted for being political, but 

I did not vote for Trump either time and I am a Christian.  We have seen a massive entanglement of the "evangelical" church with politics, and I have felt a lot of sadness about it. 

You are not alone. I just want you to know you are not the only believer who feels this way.  Don't give up on God. Try to find your people--we do exist--and many of us also have been accused of being "liberal" because we didn't vote for Trump and promoted love for others during the pandemic.  It's really hard. I totally know.  My husband is among those who think I am crazy and overexposed to liberal thinking. 

The most important thing is your relationship with God, your devotion to Him, and holding fast to the truth revealed in His Word. We knew persecution would come. It has come.  Hold fast to the Lord. 

 

 

Exactly this. You’re not alone and I will say the vocal lot are attracted to Trump. By far and large, those of us who are hanging back, thinking deeper, quieter, are the conservatives who are unlikely to scream, “Republican party, you’re losing our votes.”  But, consider this - a lost election. I’m not even sure we’re few. You have to really dislike your own party’s candidate to knowingly cast a vote that will lose an election. 
 

It was grossly unfair for your father to minimize your feelings to “wanting to be one of the cool kids.” SMH. Are we 14? I’m sorry that he disrespected you as a thinking adult. 

[HS Mom in NC]

56 minutes ago, Bambam said:

But I understand not wanting to be associated with specific groups whose ideas you do not agree with.  But I don't think you can lump all Christians into this particular group. 

I think her "(really simplifying)" was a clear signal she isn't lumping all Christians into this particular group.

[SKL]

6 hours ago, Frances said:

I’m not saying people should end relationships over political differences. But it is important to stand up and speak up for what is right and true. Many of the political differences today are over facts vs fiction (lies, propaganda, misinformation, conspiracy theories), not different opinions or approaches as in the past. In many very important cases we can’t even agree on a basic set of facts so that different opinions can then be discussed and respected. The political landscape of the last six years is fundamentally different and I don’t know if we will ever be able to get back to just having different opinions, but generally agreeing on important, basic facts, truths, and principles. 

Knowing that people have different facts is, IMO, even more reason to separate political opinions from personal bonds.  Just admitting "there's a lot of conflicting info out there and it's hard to know which is true" would be wise.  Those who propagate lies are extremely skilled.  I don't believe any of us have been immune to it.

Ultimately I think those who value being "right" over nurturing relationships will lose a lot.

[Frances]

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Knowing that people have different facts is, IMO, even more reason to separate political opinions from personal bonds.  Just admitting "there's a lot of conflicting info out there and it's hard to know which is true" would be wise.  Those who propagate lies are extremely skilled.  I don't believe any of us have been immune to it.

Ultimately I think those who value being "right" over nurturing relationships will lose a lot.

Right now people are dying and suffering in Ukraine while many of their friends and relatives in Russia believe the Russian propaganda machine over the eye witness on the ground accounts of their relatives. We are on that path in the US and people deciding to just accept that everyone has different facts, rather than doing the hard work of seeking out and standing up for the truth will only hasten our own decline. In most cases it doesn’t need to mean ending relationships and certainly in the case of very  elderly relatives, I can see your approach. But one only has to look at current events and history to see the severe damage done by turning a blind eye to lies or even worse, propagating them.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Frances

[Carol in Cal.]

To the OP:

We all long for community and often feel this most strongly in church. While we don't have to be 100% likeminded about everything to have fellowship, in theory,, in practice some churches push a wholistic lifestyle that includes political affiliations and stances.  While I think that when this gets very specific it is generally a big mistake and not true to the Bible, it's still kind of common in some circles.

I've always tried to avoid big commitments to churches like that, as I believe they are quite presumptuous and that the church should not bind where God does not.

Having said that, we will not find a perfect community on earth, although we may be blessed with pretty convincing glimpses of what that could be.  Scripture does call us 'elect exiles' and asserts that "We have no enduring city."  (Hebrews 13)  Coming to terms with this is hard but necessary.  

I am sorry you are having such a rough time.  You are not alone.

[kbutton]

7 hours ago, Frances said:

Many of the political differences today are over facts vs fiction (lies, propaganda, misinformation, conspiracy theories), not different opinions or approaches as in the past.

This. My first post-college workplace had people of every political stripe, but respect ran high, and the talk was more about the underlying reasons for views--substantive stuff. Lots of good faith. 

2 hours ago, Bambam said:

Said gently, I don't determine my course through life based on what a vocal few do. 
There are many Christians who have not jumped on the Trump bandwagon. Just because some do, does not mean all do. 
It is hard, but we are only responsible for what we do/say. IMHO, we should watch what we expose our young children too, surely you can find another congregation where this isn't a big issue? I know it isn't at ours. At all. 

But I understand not wanting to be associated with specific groups whose ideas you do not agree with.  But I don't think you can lump all Christians into this particular group. 

Are you helping the people in your congregation who feel the way the OP and the rest of us feel? Are you making a way for them to stay? Are you helping them stay? Are you shouldering some of the weight of their dissent while pointing to truth when they dissent? Because if you're not, it doesn't matter if you're not on the Trump bandwagon. 

Many, many churches assume you're on the bandwagon if you don't clearly signal that you're not. The less pushback they get, the more it's assumed. The dissenter ends up in a lonely circle or just leaves.

There are few churches where I live where this is not the case. The church we just left supposedly has a lot of people who aren't on the bandwagon, but we dissenters would never know it. My closest friend that did attempt to should some of the dissent and who reluctantly votes for Trump (not sure about the second time around) did this for me for a bit, but the last time we talked about this, I told her about some of the lies she hadn't been hearing (partly because she stays off of social media). I got a very clear and gentle, "Maybe it's time you go. You've been uncomfortable for a while." I had already concluded that, but it hurts to know that she's okay staying with the people that have edged out dissent (and edged out me). 

2 hours ago, Dmmetler said:

if you still have virtual services vs trying to push people to be in the pews, that is a pretty big tell right there. 

Not so much around here. And many can't stop themselves from saying that people should be back. We listen to a church that has ridden this out pretty well (it's too far away for us to attend; relatives go there). They've had mandatory masking either the whole time or on and off when things got bad. They dropped masks with the new CDC guidelines, and NOW the pastor is saying stuff about seeing everyone's face (!) and those online are missing out! I don't appreciate the guilt. I would've rather heard, "We're doing our best to keep you safe by wearing masks in case you can't tell online. When numbers are low, we'd love to see you and will understand if you go back to online when the numbers go back up. And it's okay if you're not ready." But, "Come back now that we've dropped masks" seems a bit clueless and betrays either impatience that is really unbecoming in a pastor to those of us who've been painted as fearful, or it betrays that they don't care about the pandemic except when it's mandated for them to care. 

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

Exactly this. You’re not alone and I will say the vocal lot are attracted to Trump. By far and large, those of us who are hanging back, thinking deeper, quieter, are the conservatives who are unlikely to scream, “Republican party, you’re losing our votes.”  But, consider this - a lost election. I’m not even sure we’re few. 

Support dissent. Seriously. I am so tired of hearing that people in the pews are not really taking sides, but they don't tell the political ones to shut up, nor do they support people when they dissent. How do people who are thinking deeper and being quieter live with the cognitive dissonance of being assumed to be on the T Train while others stick their necks out and get their heads chopped off? 

1 hour ago, SKL said:

Ultimately I think those who value being "right" over nurturing relationships will lose a lot.

That's just a mean thing to say in this context, frankly. We know we're losing a lot, but it's not because we want to be right. It's because we want to be righteous, and we believe that the lies are keeping our churches from righteousness. Very, very big difference doctrinally. 

[kbutton]

9 minutes ago, Carol in Cal. said:

Having said that, we will not find a perfect community on earth, although we may be blessed with pretty convincing glimpses of what that could be.  Scripture does call us 'elect exiles' and asserts that "We have no enduring city."  (Hebrews 13)  Coming to terms with this is hard but necessary.  

We are supposed to be exiles together, not in our own church.

[gardenmom5]

15 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

v American Christianity’s c

One thing that absolutely makes me nuts - "American Christianity" is NOT a "single block"  there are multiple denominations with wildly divergent beliefs.

I do understand - my grandmother's view on religion (and that she used it as a cudgel to manipulate others) is one of the reasons my mother left religion behind.  As I came to know more - I completely understand why my mother left.   However, I am also a deeply religious person - of a totally different religious denomination from my grandmother.   (eta; - yeah, she held it against me.)

Edited March 7, 2022 by gardenmom5

[Frances]

3 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

One thing that absolutely makes me nuts - "American Christianity" is NOT a "single block"  there are multiple denominations with wildly divergent beliefs.

I do understand - my grandmother's view on religion (and that she used it as a cudgel to manipulate others) is one of the reasons my mother left religion behind.  As I came to know more - I completely understand why my mother left.   However, I am also a deeply religious person - of a totally different religious denomination from my grandmother.   (eta; - yeah, she held it against me.)

I trust every single person on this board knows and fully understands that American Christianity is not a single block, but multiple denominations with wildly divergent beliefs.

Edited March 7, 2022 by Frances

[Lori D.]

A solid Christian deep-thinking podcast I can recommend:

Mars Hill Audio Journal (subscription), and/or the Mars Hill App for the free Friday feature

Ken Myers has been hosting these DEEP-thinking Biblically-based discussions with a wide variety of Christians on a wide variety of topics for over 30 years.

[gardenmom5]

I just want to add one more thought.

I have friends who are very political - maybe something about majoring in poli-sci . . ..  (I have relatives on BOTH sides - who will shove it in your face because they, seemingly, love to argue.  Neither have respect for other people being able to make their own choices.  Both have been pretty much excluded as no one wants to deal wtih them - I've had fantasies of locking them in a room together and selling tickets.)  

I have friends and family on both sides of the aisle with whom I get along just fine.

Ultimately - I think that's what matters the most, is putting God first in how I live my life, to being as Christ-like as I can.  (some days are better than others, but c'est la vie). 

 

[gardenmom5]

8 minutes ago, Frances said:

I trust every single person on this board knows and fully understands that American Christianity is not a single block, but multiple denominations with wildly divergent beliefs.

based on the comment the OP made - no I don't trust that *every single person on this board* believes that.

[Amy in NH]

15 minutes ago, Frances said:

I trust every single person on this board knows and fully understands that American Christianity is not a single block, but multiple denominations with wildly divergent beliefs.

AND unless the dissenters speak up, the rest of us only hear the loud ones who are "tainting your brand".  It's no wonder all Christians are lumped together when we only hear the ones pushing the fictional Groupthink.

[TechWife]

3 hours ago, Grace Hopper said:

 I feel like every conversation is an interview
 

This describes how I feel at church to a “T.” I rarely talk to anyone at length that I don’t know really well, now. 

[TABmom]

Just wanted to add that I’m another Christian non-Trump supporter. But, I have always identified as a Christian liberal, so I am used to not “belonging”. We really are out here, we’re just not loud.

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, gardenmom5 said:

based on the comment the OP made - no I don't trust that *every single person on this board* believes that.

I'll post it again,

 

17 hours ago, lovinmyboys said:

I basically told them (really simplifying) that Trump and American Christianity’s response to him has made me stop taking my children to church. 

The "(really simplifying)" part is a clear signal to everyone that the OP isn't lumping every Christian into a single category. 

Also, can we go back to recognizing context and audience?  In the context of American elections and religious Trump voters, she's talking about the views of the dominant Christian wing, which is Evangelicalism-an every shifting term that means category of Christian groups that's widely recognized as "American Christianity" (distinct from Christianity abroad) and the most influential in US elections. It's shorthand.  We all know it if we've lived in the US for an election cycle or longer.

And in the context of her conversation with her family members who are that brand of American Christian, it makes sense for her to use it or something like it when speaking with them because we all know that brand of American Christian thinks they make up the "real" Christians in America. It's code switching according to subculture and appropriate in that situation.  If I remember correctly, you're not from that branch of Christianity and not that particular subculture, but it's appropriate in context. I'm from that branch and that subculture and have to do the same thing while fully understanding American Christians are a far more diverse group than my audience in those conversations recognizes. 

I understand this whole thing could be confusing to our international posters, but I think American posters should understand already understand the nuances and not take offense just because all the details of subculture weren't explicitly laid out and addressed in detail.  This is directed at an American audience after all. 

[bolt.]

If it helps, there are Christians all over the world that don't support Mr. Trump, and would never dream of doing so.

You're actually in the majority.

[Sneezyone]

9 minutes ago, bolt. said:

If it helps, there are Christians all over the world that don't support Mr. Trump, and would never dream of doing so.

You're actually in the majority.

Thus...

GO OVERSEAS. Embrace every aspect of it. Travel. Engage. You'll find it refreshing and renewing.

[kbutton]

Another avenue of unexpected support I found recently is the Christians Against Covid Denialism FB group. They talk about this on there a bit. It's also an international group, and people from countries that haven't found the pandemic political are very supportive of those of us in the US who are struggling. It's a balm to the soul. 

There is a lot of talk right now about re-entry as guidelines change. It's just a really nice group of people. There are a few non-Christians as well. 

There is 2.0 group. If you join, try to join both. The 2.0 group is backup because the main group has been in FB jail a couple of times when the robots misunderstood a post and labeled it as disinformation. It's very much an evidence-based group. 

***ETA: The group has both mainline and evangelical/former evangelic folks in it, but they do a fantastic job of focusing in primary issues and leaving secondary issues at the door. I have been most impressed with this. 

Edited March 7, 2022 by kbutton