I feel so frustrated about people refusing vaccination…

[MercyA]

2 hours ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Show me the studies that prove this new mRNA technology and these vaccines have no LONG TERM side effects please.  Prove it. 

This is a new virus. 

We live in the real world. Things aren't perfect. Two things I do know for sure: there are millions of people dying and there is a safe, effective vaccine available.

We should be dancing in the streets with joy and gratitude for the amazing work scientists have done and yet some people (general some people, not necessarily you) act like it's all some nefarious plot to kill us. 

It's baffling and sad.

Edited October 13, 2021 by MercyA

[Evelyn2108]

7 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Girl, this is a new virus. Or haven't you heard? 🙂 

We live in the real world. Things aren't perfect. Two things I do know for sure: there are millions of people dying and there is a safe, effective vaccine available.

We should be dancing in the streets with joy and gratitude for the amazing work scientists have done and yet some people (general some people, not necessarily you) act like it's all some nefarious plot to kill us. 

It's baffling and sad.

Children have a higher chance of dying from influenza then COVID.  Not dancing about giving the mRNA (which had not been properly studied) to my kids.  
 

When taking commorbidities into account my risk is also so low, it’s not zero, but close to it.  
 

It’s baffling and sad that you can’t distinguish risk profiles for different ages and health conditions.   Girl. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Evelyn2108

[KSera]

From Bloomberg's Covid vaccine data tracker:

Quote

More than 6.56 billion doses have been administered across 184 countries, according to data collected by Bloomberg. The latest rate was roughly 25.7 million doses a day.

In the U.S., 402 million doses have been given so far.

There has never in history been a vaccine as well tested as this at this point.

[Evelyn2108]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

From Bloomberg's Covid vaccine data tracker:

There has never in history been a vaccine as well tested as this at this point.

402 million doses given but reporting to vaers is optional.  We don’t collect data on whether those 402 million people have had adverse reactions.  

[Evelyn2108]

16 minutes ago, KSera said:

Did you read my earlier response to this assertion? This is not true.

Please explain how a vaccine that has been on the market under a year for a virus that has existed less then 18 months could have undergone long term 3-7yr safety trials. 

[KSera]

Just now, Evelyn2108 said:

402 million doses given but reporting to vaers is optional.  We don’t collect data on whether those 402 million people have had adverse reactions.  

Your mind is clearly made up and I know that data isn't going to change that, so I don't think this is a fruitful discussion. You said no one is replying to your points, yet they are and when I have responded directly to them, you have largely ignored those responses (which is your prerogative).

Just now, Evelyn2108 said:

Please explain how a vaccine that has been on the market under a year for a virus that has existed less then 18 months could have undergone long term 3-7yr safety trials. 

Go back and read my previous response to your question about 3-7 year trials in this thread. I explained it there.

[Jaybee]

12 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

 

When taking commorbidities into account my risk is also so low, it’s not zero, but close to it.  
 

This was the case of the father of a now-fatherless 10yo boy I know. Sadly, it was before vaccines were available.

[SeaConquest]

3 hours ago, Evelyn2108 said:

There are plenty of good reasons not to vaccinate.  Read the below link from recent icu whistle blower Dr Patricia Lee.  Probably not going to be front page news.  
 

I’ll summarize the main points.

 

Dr. Patricia Lee is a distinguished, expert physician, who has worked at Harvard and Georgetown, and she overcame her fear of reprisals to report to the  FDA and CDC multiple harms she personally observed that were caused by the jab. 

 

“...serious harms, including quadriplegia, organ failure, and brain blood clots.  As Dr. Lee explains..., it is ‘statistically improbable that any one physician should witness this many Covid-19 vaccine injuries if the federal...claims regarding...vaccine safety were accurate.’”

 

“...she has ‘spoken with colleagues who have also had similar experiences in treating patients’ but none would publicly acknowledge these injuries because they thought doing so would ‘fuel vaccine hesitancy’ or result in ‘backlash.’ This approach to medicine is the real danger.”

 

In other words, folks, many relevant specialists have significant personal experience with the disastrous side-effects of the jab, but will not report them out of fear of damage to their careers.

 

Thanks to Dr. Lee for her courage, but frankly her colleagues, through their silence, are partly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.

 

What about your Hippocratic Oath, professionals?

 

If you do not start speaking out *now*, you’re moral monsters.

 

Here is her letter. Important. Life-saving. Deserves to be shared far and wide.

 

https://twitter.com/lsanger/status/1447975174234595336?s=20

Dr. Lee is an "ICU physician" (normally referred to as an intensivist, BTW), yet the letter does not reference her hospital affiliation. From the information detailed in the letter, she appears to work here (for now, at least): https://www.whhs.com/Find-Your-Physician/L/Patricia-Wenshin-Lee-M-D-.aspx The law firm which represents her, however, seems to be very involved with advising people with respect to vaccine exemptions, which I find odd. As an attorney myself, this is not a typical practice area for a law firm, so it seems to be an ideologically-driven law firm. https://www.sirillp.com/vaccine-exemptions/

As the letter also acknowledges, this physician seems to have personally treated a statistically improbable number of serious "vaccine reactions". Not only that, she seems to have deduced that all of these incredibly serious conditions were "caused" by the vaccine. That's an incredibly bold statement for a physician to make without anything more than her own anecdotal experience (hint: that's not how causation is typically proven by respectable scientists). She also goes on to say that her colleagues have had "similar experiences" with these "vaccine injuries" and then rallies against vaccine mandates.  

Color me skeptical. Approximately 6.5 billion (that's *billion*) doses have been administered globally. If there were these many serious vaccine injuries happening, we would have heard about it by now. You may think that the CDC and FDA are shills for "Big Pharma," but what's the excuse for the French, the Dutch, the Canadians, and all the other countries that didn't invest in Covid vaccine R&D and have nationalized healthcare systems that would have to pay for these supposedly rampant vaccine injuries?

Seriously, please go peddle your anti-vax conspiracies somewhere else. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by SeaConquest

[wathe]

2 hours ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Most people on this thread shared anecdotal stories about “some person they knew who got sick and they were pretty sure weren’t vaccinated “.  I share a letter from an actual Dr and I’m the spammer?  
 

Nobody on this thread ever addresses my points, they just call me a spammer or crazy or whatever and run.  
 

I don’t think people who vaccinate are crazy, or spammers.  But I also don’t think vaccines are the slam dunk the pharmaceutical companies want us to think they are.  

Show me the studies that prove this new mRNA technology and these vaccines have no LONG TERM side effects please.  Prove it. 

 

An individual  letter of concern from a random doctor plucked off twitter? From what appears to be a site with an anti-vac agenda?  Meh.  That's also anecdote.

Doctors, nurses - including ICU nurses, medics, and other HCW workers with lived first-hand experience have been posting their lived experience on this board since March 2020.  We have watched the unvaccinated get sick and die, with our own eyes.  

You are new here, so you of course you didn't know that.  Membership on this board is deep and wide.   

 

[maize]

33 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

That’s because vaccines normally undergo 3-7 years testing for long term side effects.   

How many years of testing do disease-causing viruses undergo before infecting people?

Oh that's right. None.

No vaccine with the safety profile of covid infection would ever have made it past basic testing.

[SeaConquest]

And yes, I do talk to vaccine hesitant patients every day. I treat them with kindness and compassion, and I do my level best to educate them about the vaccines. But, I believe in informed consent, and I do not pressure people to get a vaccine. However, I was and am a strong proponent of SB 277 in California and I also support our current mandates. You have every right to opt out of a vaccine. No one has any right to inject anything into your body without your consent. But, your choices have consequences. That's just part of taking personal responsibility and of being an adult. Some days, I have difficulty adulting too, but we all have to deal with it at some point.

Edited October 13, 2021 by SeaConquest

[wathe]

29 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

Dr. Lee is an "ICU physician" (normally referred to as an intensivist, BTW), yet the letter does not reference her hospital affiliation. From the information detailed in the letter, she appears to work here (for now, at least): https://www.whhs.com/Find-Your-Physician/L/Patricia-Wenshin-Lee-M-D-.aspx The law firm which represents her, however, seems to be very involved with advising people with respect to vaccine exemptions, which I find odd. As an attorney myself, this is not a typical practice area for a law firm, so it seems to be an ideologically-driven law firm. https://www.sirillp.com/vaccine-exemptions/

As the letter also acknowledges, this physician seems have personally treated a statistically improbable number of serious "vaccine reactions". Not only that, she seems to have deduced that all off these incredibly serious conditions were "caused" by the vaccine. That's an incredibly bold statement for a physician to make. She also goes on to say that her colleagues have had "similar experiences" with these "vaccine injuries" and then rallies against vaccine mandates.  

Color me skeptical. Approximately 1 billion (that's *billion*) doses have been administered globally. If there were these serious vaccine injuries, we would have heard about it by now. You may think that the CDC and FDA are shills for "Big Pharma," but what's the excuse for the French, the Dutch, the Canadians, and all the other countries that didn't invest in Covid vaccine R&D and have nationalized healthcare systems that would have to pay for these supposedly rampant vaccine injuries?

Seriously, please go peddle your anti-vax conspiracies somewhere else. 

I also find it suspicious that she doesn't list her credentials (other than MD, licensed) and her hospital affiliation.  Maybe it''s different in the states, but a Canadian intensivist would be signing with more initials after their name than MD (like, at minimum, MD, FRCP).  A list of places you trained isn't the same as credentials - who know what program and whether or not you finished it, or got even kicked out.  Also suspicious the fact that her concerned colleagues weren't concerned enough to co-sign. This letter is not worth much, I don't think.

ETA: MD's also generally don't publish their personal correspondence.  An open letter is a different thing altogether.

Edited October 13, 2021 by wathe

[MercyA]

34 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Children have a higher chance of dying from influenza then COVID.  Not dancing about giving the mRNA (which had not been properly studied) to my kids.  
 

When taking commorbidities into account my risk is also so low, it’s not zero, but close to it.  
 

It’s baffling and sad that you can’t distinguish risk profiles for different ages and health conditions.   Girl. 

No need to be nasty. I wasn't trying to make fun of you, just lighten things up and make a point. Sorry it came across wrong. I will edit.

I used to be an anti-vaxxer (or more accurately, a selective vaxxer). I know all about risk profiles.

You know what this pandemic made me realize, though? In all the vaccination decisions I made for my daughter, I only and ever weighed HER risks and HER benefits. Same with my own vaccinations. I was entirely selfish. We can't afford that in a pandemic.

We should also care about the risks to others, who are dying by the hundreds of thousands largely because we live in a selfish, self-centered society whose people can't be bothered to wear a mask, to distance, to vaccinate.

Edited October 13, 2021 by MercyA

[KSera]

1 minute ago, MercyA said:

You know what this pandemic made me realize, though? In all the vaccination decisions I made for my daughter, I only and ever weighed HER risks and HER benefits. Same with my own vaccinations. I was entirely selfish. We can't afford that in a pandemic.

Same. Although truth be told, my first and primary reasons for getting vaccinated against Covid are still selfish as well. I’ve seen the data, and I sure don’t want to take my chances with that. And I’m not even overweight or old. But also, in a pandemic, decision-making considerations are entirely different than under regular conditions. It’s like expecting everything to be the same during a war as it is during peace.

[wathe]

This is how you write a letter of concern to a government.  Signed by 153 ICU docs, all with credentials and affiliated institutions listed.

The letter is embedded in this CBC article from April, 2021, for those wishing for a source.

 

[Evelyn2108]

This is my last response, since things are getting repetitive.   
 

I’m not saying the mRNA is a terrible idea for everyone.   All I’m saying is:

1.  There are no long term data on the vax.

2.  We don’t have a standardized way to collect data on adverse effects, and some doctors have come forward to express concerns (more then the single one I quoted). 
 

3.  COVID is more or less deadly depending on your age and commorbidities.  Therefore, based on # 1 and 2 above certain people may choose not to get the vaccine, and that choice is reasonable.  
 

Finally, I’ll leave you with the USA CDC deaths by age group.   
 

Number of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) deaths in the U.S. as of October 6, 2021, by age*

0-17 years	499
18-29 years	3,739
30-39 years	10,872
40-49 years	27,172
50-64 years	122,500
65-74 years	157,673
75-84 years	185,180
85 years and older	193,317

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

[Frances]

7 hours ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I hate to say but this has never been the case. everyone, every last one of us will always act in our own best interests, or in the interest of our families. 

 And forget about conscience or religious exemptions. The people in favor of mandates give no quarter to those.

 

I completely disagree with your first statement. As just one example, many upper middle class people routinely vote against their financial best interests. Also, there are some truly selfless people who have almost completely dedicated their lives to others. Now granted I don’t disagree that people are generally selfish and self-centered and act in their own best interest, but I think there is actually quite a wide range of behavior. If you didn’t realize that before the pandemic, it should be abundantly clear by now.

As for religious exemptions, my state has several mandates in place, and religious exemptions are being very freely given. Basically you don’t have to be religious and can claim anything you want and it will be approved by government employers. Now private employees are a different matter, as at least some seem to be actually examining claims and not just rubber stamping them.

[wathe]

3 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

This is my last response, since things are getting repetitive.   

2.  We don’t have a standardized way to collect data on adverse effects, and some doctors have come forward to express concerns (more then the single one I quoted). 
 

 

We do, actually.

Edited October 13, 2021 by wathe

[Frances]

7 hours ago, Evelyn2108 said:

There is data to support both vaccinating and not vaccinating. We are all individuals with individual risk profiles and need to make individual decisions with gp’s that we trust.  
 

Blanket statements that “people who don’t vaccinated are selfish” is ignorant and dangerous because it is used to justify totalitarian measures.  
 

 

Since you’re new here, remember to insert “due to medical contradictions” after “people who don’t vaccinate” before misrepresenting what many are saying. As far as I know, everyone on this board understands that a very small percentage of the population should not be vaccinated for medical reasons. They are not included in general statements about the unvaccinated, even if not explicitly stated each and every time.

[Frances]

3 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

I don't know the statistics, so take my post with a grain of salt. I would guess that a lot of people avoiding vaccination are not doing it due to misinformation, but rather, due to lack of motivation. They could think, "I'm healthy, why inject myself?" "I don't work with the public" "I am scared of side effects" "I was exposed and never got sick... what's the point?" and a whole slew of things like that. 

Or maybe they have an anecdotal story like, "my friend's brother was healthy then died soon after the vaccine" or "went to the hospital" etc. I've heard a few of these things through the grapevine. 

Doesn’t seem to be the case where I work. Almost all of the questions and anti-vax statements on the chat threads during info sessions about the vaccines are full of misinformation. It’s truly disheartening to see how misinformed many people are.

[SeaConquest]

32 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Number of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) deaths in the U.S. as of October 6, 2021, by age*

0-17 years	499
18-29 years	3,739
30-39 years	10,872
40-49 years	27,172
50-64 years	122,500
65-74 years	157,673
75-84 years	185,180
85 years and older	193,317

That's a crap ton of dead people, no matter how you slice it. And if you think otherwise, you have simply become inured to these horrific deaths because you haven't been the one watching them slowly suffocate and putting them into bodybags over and over again.

Edited October 13, 2021 by SeaConquest

[TechWife]

33 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

This is my last response, since things are getting repetitive.   
 

I’m not saying the mRNA is a terrible idea for everyone.   All I’m saying is:

1.  There are no long term data on the vax.

2.  We don’t have a standardized way to collect data on adverse effects, and some doctors have come forward to express concerns (more then the single one I quoted). 
 

3.  COVID is more or less deadly depending on your age and commorbidities.  Therefore, based on # 1 and 2 above certain people may choose not to get the vaccine, and that choice is reasonable.  
 

Finally, I’ll leave you with the USA CDC deaths by age group.   
 

Number of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) deaths in the U.S. as of October 6, 2021, by age*

0-17 years	499
18-29 years	3,739
30-39 years	10,872
40-49 years	27,172
50-64 years	122,500
65-74 years	157,673
75-84 years	185,180
85 years and older	193,317

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

Each of those numbers was a person. Each of the people represented by these numbers caught COVID-19 from someone else. When a person chooses not to vaccinate, they are also deciding that they are okay with transmitting the virus to someone else. That other person has a set of risk factors that are private and that others are completely unaware of - and when someone chooses not to vaccinate, they change the risk calculation for everyone around them - but the people around them don’t know that, so their risk calculation becomes meaningless. When a person chooses not to vaccinate, they are also choosing to risk the health and lives of other people. The right to choose is taken away from others without their knowledge or consent. It is called “public health” for a reason. Personal decisions made in private affect the public. If a person doesn’t put the public into their risk equation when choosing whether or not to get vaccinated, then the risk calculation is incomplete. Choosing not to vaccinate puts the health of others at risk - and they have no choice in the matter. “Choice for me, but not for thee” is an accurate way of looking at it. 

You may think you are low risk, when in fact, your risk changes based upon who you have come in contact with, who they have come in contact with, and on and on. You have no way of really knowing because others are changing your risk factors for you without your knowledge or consent. 

I also don’t understand the fixation on the death statistics. Why is it acceptable to make other people sick at all? Why is it acceptable to have an illness run through a family or community? People miss work through no fault of their own, kids miss school, bills go unpaid, medical expenses add up, milestone occasions are missed, but most of all people are sick - they feel terrible - they can’t catch their breath - they are scared -  they hurt - they may loose their independence temporarily or permanently - why is that okay???? It’s not. It’s not okay at all. 

Hundreds of thousands of people will not ever see their family members or friends  again. People matter. It.is.not.okay. 

 

[YaelAldrich]

Of course I'm worried about dying from covid, but I'm perhaps even more worried that my loved ones get long covid.  My husband has two grad students who contacted covid (one of them twice so far) and they both have severe long haul symptoms. One can't walk a short block without having to take a long break and still has brain fog almost a year after her second infection. The other almost died of heart problems while sick and still has an irregular heartbeat.  Both are recently married and I know they were looking to start a family. With their current health I don't know if that will be possible. I mourn for their loss of health and potential.

I fear losing my sense of smell and taste - I cook entirely from those senses and when I cannot smell due to a cold or whatnot I have a difficult time with food preparation.

 

[TravelingChris]

10 hours ago, Quill said:

BTW, I just learned moments ago, through Facebook, that the client I have mentioned here before who had been in the ICU since early August, sick with COVID, died. A woman in her fifties, nice-looking, tall, strong mom of three kids, gone now because of COVID. I do not know for a fact she was unvaccinated but it seems likely the case. It's just so senseless. I seriously wish I could post her picture here because she looks so very *regular* - she could easily have been a mom in my book club or my bunko group or my homeschool co-op. I did show her picture to my husband, because I think this is the reality he isn't seeing and doesn't know about. He thinks COVID deaths are old people and sick people. It might give him pause to see this beautiful woman, a mom pretty similar to his *wife* or his *sisters*, gone senselessly. 

There have been a lot of pictures shown here in my state of people who died from COVID and a lot of them are not elderly at all.

[TravelingChris]

7 hours ago, Evelyn2108 said:

402 million doses given but reporting to vaers is optional.  We don’t collect data on whether those 402 million people have had adverse reactions.  

I had them call me.  And after many tries, I called them back.  I had no idea what they were asking me.  I think I may have had a mild headache after I got my third shot---I am on strong immunosuppressants.  But I get mild headaches often enough that it isn't even clear that it had anything to do with the vaccines.  In the reporting, I always have joint pain-- I have four forms of autoimmune arthritis-so my joints hurt to some extent every single day and have been hurting for decades.

[MercyA]

@TechWife, well said. I wish the whole country could read--and really listen to--your last post. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

8 hours ago, SeaConquest said:

That's a crap ton of dead people, no matter how you slice it. And if you think otherwise, you have simply become inured to these horrific deaths because you haven't been the one watching them slowly suffocate and putting them into bodybags over and over again.

I shouldn’t even wade into this today.  I shouldn’t, and I will anyway. 
 

In the last 12 hours…

I held the hand of a frightened, elderly cancer patient who was hemorrhaging uncontrollably for 52 minutes on my stretcher while we waited for an ER bed to open.  That ER is overwhelmed in (primarily) unvaccinated Covid patients.

She went on to need 5 units of blood.

After that, I went on a cardiac arrest. 39. Several children. Dropped suddenly in her kitchen; Covid positive. Suspicion is probably a Covid caused blood clot.  I looked her up on Facebook; hers was public and filled with anti-vax save my freedom rhetoric. Well, you chose your freedom, but now your kids are motherless.

Next call after that was a car accident. Probably not Covid.

Call after that was an elderly woman  who fell at home. Not injured, but needed help up. She was so afraid because her home health aide is usually there to help her in bed but no one had shown up. I called the agency and found out that aide called in, they were so short staffed due to people being out due to Covid and quarantine that they couldn’t find anyone for the night.  There was no family that could come.  She hasn’t been alone at night in years. The look in her eyes when I told her no one was coming was horrible. We helped her into bed and locked her doors. 

Patient after that was 47, Covid positive, dad of two. Wife is a stay at home, homeschooling mom. Unvaxxed.  I couldn’t get his O2 saturation above 74% even with all my tricks.  It was early early morning, but I had them wake up the kids.  I wanted them to say goodbye to Dad, because I don’t know that he’s coming home.

I posted on my Facebook yesterday a screen shot of the local cases and hospital capacity(lots of cases, no beds).  Immediately I had comments about why aren’t we using Ivermectin!!! They just want people to die!!! And lots about the shunning and discrimination against those who don’t vaccinate.

I may literally blast them back in my comments today, even though I usually believe it’s not worth it.

[historically accurate]

@Mrs Tiggywinkle, big hugs to you.

A huge thank you for all you do isn't enough though you deserve that and so much more. I wish there was something more to offer you than cyber hugs.

[Faith-manor]

Tiggy, you are a hero! I true, American Hero, and I am so sorry you have to deal with all this sh#t!!! Thank you for all you do! Side note, thank you for thinking of those children and making sure they had a chance to say goodbye to their daddy.

I would like for the NFL to NOT play this year and donate all their ungodly high salaries for absolutely meaningless entertainment to first responders. If anyone should be getting millions for what they do, it is our first responders and HCWs. What a stupid culture!

I don't know why people won't listen. Malignant narcissism seems to running rampant in our nation.

[TCB]

@Mrs Tiggywinkle I’m so sorry, it is so hard to see all that and then see the way some people respond. Hope you are able to rest today.

[brehon]

Just to add onto Mrs. T-W’s post — her patients’ profiles mirrors mine on any given shift. Even though numbers are trending down in my area, they are still considered very high. I’ve had the CPR call of a youngish man who died because he believed the hype against vaccines and for ivermectin. So, he drove on down to TSC and bought tubes of the stuff. Then he self-administered for 3 months prior to dropping dead. He was alive when we opened the front door and dead by the time we reached him in his recliner. Turns out that in addition to absolutely tearing your intestines up, livestock strength ivermectin also causes cardiac issues. Who coulda guessed that a livestock strength dewormer would have ill-effects on humans? (/sarcasm off) Also, turns out that there is a worse smell that the c-diff smell. It’s the smell of bowels destroyed by ivermectin.

ETA: Mrs. T-W and I live in completely different areas of the country. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by brehon
Clarification

[I talk to the trees]

19 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I shouldn’t even wade into this today.  I shouldn’t, and I will anyway. 
 

In the last 12 hours…

I held the hand of a frightened, elderly cancer patient who was hemorrhaging uncontrollably for 52 minutes on my stretcher while we waited for an ER bed to open.  That ER is overwhelmed in (primarily) unvaccinated Covid patients.

She went on to need 5 units of blood.

After that, I went on a cardiac arrest. 39. Several children. Dropped suddenly in her kitchen; Covid positive. Suspicion is probably a Covid caused blood clot.  I looked her up on Facebook; hers was public and filled with anti-vax save my freedom rhetoric. Well, you chose your freedom, but now your kids are motherless.

Next call after that was a car accident. Probably not Covid.

Call after that was an elderly woman  who fell at home. Not injured, but needed help up. She was so afraid because her home health aide is usually there to help her in bed but no one had shown up. I called the agency and found out that aide called in, they were so short staffed due to people being out due to Covid and quarantine that they couldn’t find anyone for the night.  There was no family that could come.  She hasn’t been alone at night in years. The look in her eyes when I told her no one was coming was horrible. We helped her into bed and locked her doors. 

Patient after that was 47, Covid positive, dad of two. Wife is a stay at home, homeschooling mom. Unvaxxed.  I couldn’t get his O2 saturation above 74% even with all my tricks.  It was early early morning, but I had them wake up the kids.  I wanted them to say goodbye to Dad, because I don’t know that he’s coming home.

I posted on my Facebook yesterday a screen shot of the local cases and hospital capacity(lots of cases, no beds).  Immediately I had comments about why aren’t we using Ivermectin!!! They just want people to die!!! And lots about the shunning and discrimination against those who don’t vaccinate.

I may literally blast them back in my comments today, even though I usually believe it’s not worth it.

1- Thank you for all you do. I know HCWs are burned out and exhausted, but keep trudging onward. Know that there are those out there who greatly appreciate you. 

2-I am so sorry. Sorry that you have to deal with situations like you describe. Sorry that people are unwilling to do their part in reducing the strain on the health care system. Sorry that people are so selfish that they can’t see beyond the end of their own nose. And sorry that even after reading post after post after post from you and other HCWs, there are those on this very forum who foolishly continue to spread and defend the misinformation that has cost and will cost so very many lives. 
 

[Lecka]

I am so sorry for the healthcare workers who are having to deal with all of this.

 

[Ausmumof3]

Oh man, reading the healthcare workers and first responders posts here is so sad.  Thank you guys for everything you do.  I don’t think there’s words enough for it.

[PeterPan]

8 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

One can't walk a short block without having to take a long break and still has brain fog almost a year after her second infection. The other almost died of heart problems while sick and still has an irregular heartbeat. 

I can tell you a person came to the HBOT clinic where I've been getting treatments for head injuries that long haul people are getting improvement with these, radical improvements. 

There's also a covidlonghaulers site that is trying to do cytokine testing to target treatments. 

We're not talking a ton of treatments btw. I've done 90+ for my concussions, but these covid people are having significant improvement in 20.

[Scarlett]

52 minutes ago, brehon said:

Just to add onto Mrs. T-W’s post — her patients’ profiles mirrors mine on any given shift. Even though numbers are trending down in my area, they are still considered very high. I’ve had the CPR call of a youngish man who died because he believed the hype against vaccines and for ivermectin. So, he drove on down to TSC and bought tubes of the stuff. Then he self-administered for 3 months prior to dropping dead. He was alive when we opened the front door and dead by the time we reached him in his recliner. Turns out that in addition to absolutely tearing your intestines up, livestock strength ivermectin also causes cardiac issues. Who coulda guessed that a livestock strength dewormer would have ill-effects on humans? (/sarcasm off) Also, turns out that there is a worse smell that the c-diff smell. It’s the smell of bowels destroyed by ivermectin.

ETA: Mrs. T-W and I live in completely different areas of the country. 

This is horrifying.  So so sorry for what you and @Mrs Tiggywinkle and other HCWs are enduring.

[Janeway]

Although I did vaccinate, it did ruffle my feathers big-time that the government would have the nerve to step in and try to force the vaccinations to such an extreme that our tax dollars are paying for the National Guard to do jobs for nurses who probably already contracted it because they’ve been doing the job for so long. It’s so ruffled my feathers about the mandated vaccinations, that I probably would not of gotten vaccinated because of that. And I know there are a lot of people not getting vaccinated because they feel shoved in the corner and like somebody’s trying to control them. It has nothing to do with this Carlson guy that I don’t even know who he is I don’t watch him I’m not into watching talk shows or listening to them. But when the government steps in and tries to take peoples rights away from controlling their own bodies, it leaves me feeling like I need to stand up all the more for my rights. And I know that there are a lot of people that feel this way. I am not saying this to start an argument I’m just saying this to hopefully invite and some people that the forced militant damaging behaviors from the government have lead a lot of people who otherwise would’ve been vaccinated to not get vaccinated. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Janeway

[Happy2BaMom]

@Mrs Tiggywinkle@brehon

You might find this thread at r/nursing (Reddit) validating. (side note: this is a "Code Blue" thread, meaning OP & commentors have been verified by mods as being HCWs)

It's not worth the breath it takes to respond to a dedicated anti-vaxxer. You'd think the fact that ~2,000 people die every day of Covid (the vast majority unvaccinated), that ~25% of Delta Covid survivors have at least one long-hauler symptom, that dozens of Covid Go Fund Me pages are up at any one time, etc etc might open minds, but it doesn't. So be it. Humans are not magically above natural selection, and that's what is happening now.

 

 

[Scarlett]

12 minutes ago, Janeway said:

Although I did vaccinate, it did ruffle my feathers big-time that the government would have the nerve to step in and try to force the vaccinations to such an extreme that our tax dollars are paying for the National Guard to do jobs for nurses who probably already contracted it because they’ve been doing the job for so long. It’s so ruffled my feathers about the mandated vaccinations, that I probably would not of gotten vaccinated because of that. And I know there are a lot of people not getting vaccinated because they feel shoved in the corner and like somebody’s trying to control them. It has nothing to do with this Carlson guy that I don’t even know who he is I don’t watch him I’m not into watching talk shows or listening to them. But when the government steps in and tries to take peoples rights away from controlling their own bodies, it leaves me feeling like I need to stand up all the more for my rights. And I know that there are a lot of people that feel this way. I am not saying this to start an argument I’m just saying this to hopefully invite and some people that the forced militant damaging behaviors from the government have lead a lot of people who otherwise would’ve been vaccinated to not get vaccinated. 

That sort of response is called cutting off your nose to spite your face.  The government is tasked with protecting the public from many threats.  That is a big part of their job.  Covid is a very real threat.  

I am glad you got vaccinated.... and I am sorry your dad died from Covid.

[itsheresomewhere]

Can I just say to those on here who understand that some of us have legitimate medical issues with the vaccine and are being nice and respectful to us- THANK YOU.   The amount of people who seem to put those of us with medical issues who have specialists telling us to not get the vaccine yet put us in the group as the government is out to get us and why we haven’t gotten it yet is not helpful.  I have been yelled at and told I am killing my kids ( including directly to my kids faces) by a few individuals who just don’t get it.  I really appreciate those on here who have been nice and understanding about it.  

[frogger]

11 hours ago, Frances said:

I completely disagree with your first statement. As just one example, many upper middle class people routinely vote against their financial best interests. Also, there are some truly selfless people who have almost completely dedicated their lives to others. Now granted I don’t disagree that people are generally selfish and self-centered and act in their own best interest, but I think there is actually quite a wide range of behavior. If you didn’t realize that before the pandemic, it should be abundantly clear by now.

As for religious exemptions, my state has several mandates in place, and religious exemptions are being very freely given. Basically you don’t have to be religious and can claim anything you want and it will be approved by government employers. Now private employees are a different matter, as at least some seem to be actually examining claims and not just rubber stamping them.

I'm going to tack onto this, if my community is better off I'm better off.

 

I live here.

The more crime, the worse off things are for me.

The more sickness, the worse off I am and less likely to be able use the hospital.

If the place is trashed I might have to let my kids play where drug needles are or keep them inside.

If all the other kids in the community have a good education there will be more businesses and thus more jobs.

The next generation will have more kids for my kids to partner with in business or maybe life in general. 

I am better off when my community is better off. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by frogger

[Spy Car]

50 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I can tell you a person came to the HBOT clinic where I've been getting treatments for head injuries that long haul people are getting improvement with these, radical improvements. 

There's also a covidlonghaulers site that is trying to do cytokine testing to target treatments. 

We're not talking a ton of treatments btw. I've done 90+ for my concussions, but these covid people are having significant improvement in 20.

Bruce Patterson is a quack who is ripping people off. He did the same with HIV and cancer.

Please stop pushing his bogus (and expensive) fake long-haul treatments. This is a con-job. More Ivermectin nonsense.

Bill

[Dmmetler]

Honestly, I'm ready to put in vax mandates for my studio once vaccinations for kids are available. I've been teaching with masks, air purifiers and distancing with the mental image that my parents and students were on the same page, that we're all trying to protect each other. I didn't see my mask policy as a mandate, but as a mutual accommodation to make in person possible for those for whom zoom just didn't work. 

 

But seeing people come right out and say that they won't vaccinate their kids because, after all, their kids are healthy and won't die of COVID makes me want to demand the card at the door. I'm tired of teaching preschoolers and early beginners through masks. Tired of teaching from across the room. Tired of having to have extra copies of every book just so I can see what kids are doing. Tired of not being able to safely have group classes. I have been looking forward to vaccines for kids because it meant that we could hopefully go back to normal safely. But that requires parents to be willing to make the vax accommodation mutual. And I have students who have complicated medical situations, or who have family members who do. They need the protection provided by those around them being vsccinated. 

 

 

Edited October 13, 2021 by Dmmetler

[MEmama]

10 minutes ago, itsheresomewhere said:

Can I just say to those on here who understand that some of us have legitimate medical issues with the vaccine and are being nice and respectful to us- THANK YOU.   The amount of people who seem to put those of us with medical issues who have specialists telling us to not get the vaccine yet put us in the group as the government is out to get us and why we haven’t gotten it yet is not helpful.  I have been yelled at and told I am killing my kids ( including directly to my kids faces) by a few individuals who just don’t get it.  I really appreciate those on here who have been nice and understanding about it.  

I’m probably imperfect in remembering in my posts to include valid medical concerns as a reason for not vaccinating, but I hope most people on this board realize it’s never intended to be equivalent to antivaxxers or people who refuse “because Big Govt”. 
 

I'm sorry you have to endure that on top of everything else. 😞 
 

 

[fairfarmhand]

10 hours ago, TechWife said:

Each of those numbers was a person. Each of the people represented by these numbers caught COVID-19 from someone else. When a person chooses not to vaccinate, they are also deciding that they are okay with transmitting the virus to someone else. That other person has a set of risk factors that are private and that others are completely unaware of - and when someone chooses not to vaccinate, they change the risk calculation for everyone around them - but the people around them don’t know that, so their risk calculation becomes meaningless. When a person chooses not to vaccinate, they are also choosing to risk the health and lives of other people. The right to choose is taken away from others without their knowledge or consent. It is called “public health” for a reason. Personal decisions made in private affect the public. If a person doesn’t put the public into their risk equation when choosing whether or not to get vaccinated, then the risk calculation is incomplete. Choosing not to vaccinate puts the health of others at risk - and they have no choice in the matter. “Choice for me, but not for thee” is an accurate way of looking at it. 

You may think you are low risk, when in fact, your risk changes based upon who you have come in contact with, who they have come in contact with, and on and on. You have no way of really knowing because others are changing your risk factors for you without your knowledge or consent. 

I also don’t understand the fixation on the death statistics. Why is it acceptable to make other people sick at all? Why is it acceptable to have an illness run through a family or community? People miss work through no fault of their own, kids miss school, bills go unpaid, medical expenses add up, milestone occasions are missed, but most of all people are sick - they feel terrible - they can’t catch their breath - they are scared -  they hurt - they may loose their independence temporarily or permanently - why is that okay???? It’s not. It’s not okay at all. 

Hundreds of thousands of people will not ever see their family members or friends  again. People matter. It.is.not.okay. 

 

My husband is in public health and since the beginning of the pandemic kept an Excel spreadsheet of the daily illnesses and deaths in our state. We watched his line graph go up and down. 

Then last December his mom died of Covid.

One of those numbers (we're not sure what day the health department included her death in the stats) was his mom. Typing in the numbers that week was surreal for my dh. 

And for every one of those numbers, many people cried and lay awake at night aching and missing...

And they probably still do...

Numbers are faceless things. 

Each one stands for a person. Someone;s parent. Sister. Friend.

 

[maize]

17 minutes ago, Happy2BaMom said:

@Mrs Tiggywinkle@brehonHumans are not magically above natural selection, and that's what is happening now.

 

 

This is a nonsense point.

What is happening with covid and vaccination choices has nothing to do with which humans are more fit for their environment and able to reproduce and raise children.

Nonsensical insults contribute nothing to a discussion.

I'm heartbroken over unnecessary suffering and death that could have been prevented by vaccination. I worry about those of my friends who remain unvaccinated and the risks I know they are running. One friend lost her daughter to covid last week, and another's husband has been in the ICU and touch-and-go for three weeks now.

These aren't unintelligent or foolish people. They are just humans doing what humans tend to do--trusting the opinions and narrative of those in their network. Following fears that are not driven by data and reason because that isn't how human brains function.

Just normal humans. Neither more nor less fit on an evolutionary scale than those of us who have listened to different voices and made different decisions because, largely, we have different life experiences and different networks of trusted information.

I struggle with the frustration. I struggle with the heartbreak. But I don't see fools. I see people, making decisions in ordinary human ways. 

Last year, I spent a lot of time trying to persuade. Hoping my voice would make a difference.

This year I have mostly felt a need to just offer love and support. 

I find condemnation both un-called for and fundamentally unhelpful.

[MercyA]

22 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I’m probably imperfect in remembering in my posts to include valid medical concerns as a reason for not vaccinating, but I hope most people on this board realize it’s never intended to be equivalent to antivaxxers or people who refuse “because Big Govt”. 

Thank you for posting this, MEmama, because I *know* I rarely remember to say it, even though it is always on my mind in threads like these.

, @itsheresomewhere.

[Wheres Toto]

3 hours ago, frogger said:

I'm going to tack onto this, if my community is better off I'm better off.

 

I live here.

The more crime, the worse off things are for me.

The more sickness, the worse off I am and less likely to be able use the hospital.

If the place is trashed I might have to let my kids play where drug needles are or keep them inside.

If all the other kids in the community have a good education there will be more businesses and thus more jobs.

The next generation will have more kids for my kids to partner with in business or maybe life in general. 

I am better off when my community is better off. 

[Pic deleted by moderator because it probably counts as a celebrity pic]

[itsheresomewhere]

27 minutes ago, MEmama said:

I’m probably imperfect in remembering in my posts to include valid medical concerns as a reason for not vaccinating, but I hope most people on this board realize it’s never intended to be equivalent to antivaxxers or people who refuse “because Big Govt”. 
 

I'm sorry you have to endure that on top of everything else. 😞 
 

 

Thank you.  It is amazing to me that not all can see/understand that.  Most on this board have been wonderful and realize this.  

[Guest]

Both are reasonable, however one side is trying to force the vaccine with coercion (some people on this thread have advocated for that).  I’m not trying to prevent anyone from getting the mRNA if they want it. 
 

What annoys me when people say “vaccine coercion” related to the COVID vax is that being required to be vaccinated to go certain places, participate in certain activities, or even have certain jobs (like military service, for example) is this: there is *nothing new whatsoever* about that dictate. Unless you were raised Amish or Orthodox Jew, I’m willing to bet you have already yourself submitted and/or submitted your kid(s) to numerous vaccines since they were weeks, if not hours, old. There is precedent of a hundred years of mandatory public health measures. My MIL’s sister was quarantined for many months as a child because she had TB. Nobody, AFAIK, screamed she was falsely imprisoned and her liberties were besmirched because she was shut up in a room with a red X on the door. 
 

I personally am in favor of government agencies and personal businesses being able to *require* vaccination for employment unless one can produce a legitimate waiver. If you don’t like them apples, you can change employment; it’s a robust job market right now; if one is such a valuable employee they should have no problem finding a job where they can work unvaxed. Where I live, employment is “at will” so - and I don’t personally like this but it’s true - your boss can order you to wear a beige jumpsuit to work every day and, if you refuse because jumpsuits suck for bathroom breaks or beige is not in your color palette, they are perfectly at liberty to fire your ass and hire someone willing to wear an ugly and inconvenient uniform. 
 

I have trouble understanding why *anybody* thinks they have, up until now, enjoyed *TOTAL* freedom to do *whatever* they want and not have to comply with a ton of arbitrary rules for their jobs, schools, colleges or even neighborhoods. If you live where there’s an HOA, you can’t paint your house purple or have a pet panther, even though you own the house. I know neighborhoods where your dog cannot be a Pit Bull or a German Shepherd. At my kid’s school, students can’t wear a hat or sunglasses inside. The point is, in society, we *almost all* capitulate to tons of rules and concessions in order to participate in bunches of stuff. Really, only an off-grid prepper living on a South Dakota homestead is relatively free from those demands. 
 

If you can explain why this is different from all that, I will listen. It hasn’t made sense to me so far, though.