I feel so frustrated about people refusing vaccination…

[Faith-manor]

47 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Most people are fat because they overeat.  It’s totally preventable.  Worse yet, they abuse their children by feeding them garbage.  
 

Maybe we should have medical ids that one has to present when buying junk food.  If you are overweight, no buying unhealthy foods.  
 

There is after all a social cost to obesity.  Medical bills, orphaned children, lost productivity, etc... the ICUs would not have been overwhelmed if it weren’t for the obese.  
 

If we’re willing to regulate one choice, why not the other.  Slippery slope.  Once you go fascist there is no turning back. 

W.T.A.F.?

Seriously trolling. That is what this is. Nine posts and the first one very political on a board with warnings about politics, and now claiming to know what people feed their kids.

 

[OH_Homeschooler]

My job is in the healthcare industry and we have a vaccine mandate (by Nov 1 or it is considered a voluntary dismissal). Employees can submit anonymous questions about the mandate, and these are answered in an email to the organization once a week. I can avoid looking at the comments on FB (I am not always so good at that but it's within my power), but I feel compelled to read these questions. They make me so mad. 

In a previous week, someone asked the organization how they are going to help employees whose partners will physically abuse them for getting the vaccine. That is frightening and sad, but honey, if he's going to abuse you for getting vaccinated, he's going to abuse you when you lose your job too. Abusers gonna abuse. The problem is your partner, not the organization. You are not going to guilt them into lifting the mandate because you are with an abuser.  (The answer to this question provided several referrals to get the person help). 

This week, someone asked about when exactly insurance benefits will be terminated considering their child has a surgery scheduled, and also they have an ultrasound scheduled--because I assume they are pregnant. How the heck are you leaving a good job with good benefits when you have a CHILD relying on you just because you don't want a shot. I'm sorry but it's gotten ridiculous. There has been so much education on this provided by our company, so many opportunities to really learn and these people are now going to put the health of their family at risk. And if you are pregnant, you ESPECIALLY need to be vaccinated. 

These are selfish, selfish people. And they aren't going to own the reason they lost their jobs. They are going to play the victim and say the were fired and had no choice. 

 

 

[MercyA]

16 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

We do not all define ‘life’ the way you do which is the assumption underlying your comparison. Seriously, stop.

Wow. So, I'm not allowed to agree with other people's posts? Comment on them? Add information? But only if the subject is abortion? Everything else is okay? 

Because, you know, I'm also passionate about racial issues, animal issues, COVID issues. Justice issues. Rights issues. No one tells me to "stop" when I dare engage with other posters on those. But somehow now abortion is the sacred untouchable things that Must Not Be Spoken Of?

All I did with my first post--and I would have left it there--was 1. correct a stat and 2. agree with someone. And bizarrely people took issue with that.

Of course you all don't agree with me. You think I don't know that? 😉 But I don't tell you to "stop" when you post views I don't agree with.

I'm sorry, it's not happening.

I've defended this board over and over when people say it's changing to become less open to diversity of thought. I'm beginning to see what they mean. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by MercyA

[heartlikealion]

On a brighter note, a very anti-Covid vaxx parishioner friend of mine told me at church this weekend that she did get vaccinated and I told her I also ended up getting vaccinated (we were both anti Covid vaxx earlier on). I did not ask if her husband got vaccinated. Another parishioner claims she cannot get the vaccine because of some allergy or some thing. Supposedly this was discussed with her dr. Sounds kind of odd. 
 

On a selfish note, knowing that friend got the vaxx made me feel better since she sat down beside me without a mask on while I was eating in the church hall. Everyone still meets in the church hall and has food but sometimes I don’t eat or I stay away from everyone else. I do think most of the parishioners are vaccinated now, though. Honestly I worry more about them than me since it’s a primarily elderly parish. 

[Bootsie]

2 hours ago, TechWife said:

Actions have consequences. People who think and act selfishly like children do are thought of as immature and treated by others as if they are immature. This is true across the board - personal life, public life, work life, spiritual life. I've seen grown ups have adult temper tantrums at work - no they didn't scream, throw themselves on the floor, etc. - but they let people know where they stood in very immature ways. They have all gotten fired for misconduct. You simply don't have a temper tantrum at work, in public, at church or anywhere else and not have a very real consequence - loss of a job, loss of friendships, loss of respect, loss of dignity. Those who are refusing to vaccinate only because the government wants them to are losing some freedom, maybe a job, maybe friendships, definitely respect (at least my respect, anyway).

If you don't the government to do the equivalent of sending adults to their room until they are ready to calm down and follow the rules, I assume that you are generally against the criminal justice system and the concept of justice overall? Because if ever there were an example of government sending someone to their room, it's the prison system.

Living in a community means following an agreed upon set of rules. Our elections are the way that we decide who is setting the rules for us. Sometimes we like the rules, sometimes we don't.  It's the price we pay for living in a community.  People who don't want to follow the rules shouldn't expect to enter and stay in the community unchallenged. This is community, this is culture. If you want to fight to change the rules, go through the appropriate channels - protest for the purpose of affecting the change you want to see  -  but realize that changing a culture is a long haul operation and think through the cost of promoting the "everyone decided for themselves" way of life because it can truly lead to things that will change the very nature of the country and make vaccine discussions completely irrelevant.

There isn't a benefit to me, to you or to our community here to us continuing this back and forth conversation, so I am likely bowing out at this point. That, plus I have to go to work soon. Thankfully, all employees there are required by law to vaccinate against a multitude of illnesses, including covid.

 

At this point, the rule in the US is that the federal government cannot mandate that people be vaccinated.  Therefore, I do not think it is appropriate, or helpful, to classify people who, at this point in time are choosing not to vaccinate, as having a temper tantrum, needing to be calmed down, or needing to be sent to their room by the government.  

Personally, I think there are lots of problems and flaws with the judicial system in the US, which is a huge conversation in and of itself.  I do find it disturbing to talk about adults who are making their own choice about whether to vaccinate or not, which legally they have the right to do, as children throwing temper tantrums that need to be disciplined by the government.  Thinking of the government in a parental role, disciplining, rather than serving the people, is worrisome to me.  

[Sneezyone]

6 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Wow. So, I'm not allowed to agree with other people's posts? Comment on them? Add information? But only if the subject is abortion? Everything else is okay? 

Because, you know, I'm also passionate about racial issues, animal issues, COVID issues. Justice issues. Rights issues. No one tells me to "stop" when I dare engage with other posters on those. But somehow now abortion is the sacred untouchable things that Must Not Be Spoken Of?

Of course you all don't agree with me. You think I don't know that? 😉 But I don't tell you to "stop" when you post views I don't agree with.

I'm sorry, it's not happening.

I've defended this board over and over when people say it's changing to become less open to diversity of thought. I'm beginning to see what they mean. 

It has nothing to do with your ideas which we’ve discussed here multiple times, me included, and everything with it being not germane to this thread.start a new one, I might bite…again. Right now, I just wanna vent about my misguided friends and family.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

It has nothing to do with your ideas which we’ve discussed her multiple times, me included, and everything with it being not germane to this thread.

Okay, fair enough. I was trying to explain why I thought it was. 🤷‍♀️

[KSera]

2 hours ago, kbutton said:

Even politicians who've had their shots undermine the efficacy of their own shots and bow at the sacred idol of sowing doubt as a loyalty test. It's craziness.

This. I see so much of this. I don't think people know how much they are being played with this. Politicians (and other influential people) got themselves vaccinated, but then proceed to be out there loudly sowing doubt about the vaccines because they know there is a large segment of the population who that is going to play well to, and that's what's most important to them. It's despicable.

1 hour ago, SKL said:

This is yet another reason why nobody believes anything in the media.  And then we wonder why people have trouble making fact-based decisions.

Again, honestly, the CDC is not the reason "nobody" believes anything in the media. It's not even close to the top ten. People watch and read totally unreliable news sources and then proclaim all media fake and do whatever they want regardless of facts, proclaiming facts to be unknowable.

1 hour ago, SKL said:

I have an old post in my facebook timeline from March 17, 2020, reading:

"Fake News caused this pandemic. Because nobody believes the media anymore, even when/if they tell the truth.

Why hasn't Fake News been shut down like most everything else?"

I'm trying to decide which reaction to give this. There's a whole lot of truth here and a whole lot of nonsense. "Fake news" is clearly a massive contributor to why we are where we are. It's absolutely contributed to far more deaths than we would have had otherwise. The same people who like to talk about fake news are largely the ones who have been eating it up though and complaining about it being shut down. But the pandemic was caused by the SARS-CoV2 virus. It's how bad it's been that has been because of people believing dumb things.

16 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Are you kidding me? People are overweight for a myriad of reasons, including genetics, co-existing health conditions, and medication side effects. And how do you know what overweight people feed their kids? Judgy much?

I think thin people are often super judgy of overweight people, because they think it's their superior choices that cause them to be thin while others are overweight. I used to think it was as simple as that as well. I say this as a thin person who is able to make crappy nutrition decisions and still be thin. I have friends who have much healthier diet and exercise habits than I do, but they still carry extra weight. Genetics, biome and other things have huge influences. That's not saying that food doesn't have a big influence as well or that no one can do anything to change their weight, but it's not as simple as Evelyn wants it to be. And it's nowhere near as simple as getting a vaccine is (can you imagine how popular an obesity vaccine would be??!)

14 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Nobody knows if there are long term effects of mRNA because they haven’t been around long term.  Scientists say it is possible they could have negative effects.  That alone justifies giving people  reason to pass on the mRNA if they so choose.  If you are a liberal you support choice, if you are a fascist you do not.  

I understand new things seeming scary. I think it helps people a lot to have good info though. The mRNA doesn't stay in the body long. I had my second vaccine in May, which means at this point, I don't have any mRNA from the vaccine left in my body. I have no reason to think the risk of a vaccine that is no longer in my body is likely to be higher than the very clear and obvious risk of contracting Covid. If the choice was vaccine or nothing, that would be one thing, but the choice is vaccine or covid for most people. The known very high risk of Covid trumps any worries that many something we've never thought of could possibly happen in the future. If I don't make it to the future because I died of Covid, then it doesn't matter, and that's a known risk, not a fear of something unknown.

6 minutes ago, SKL said:

Believe it or not, mRNA vaccines are contraindicated for some people.  A friend of mine is very allergic to an ingredient in both mRNA vaxes, so she got the J&J.

It is also a fact that there have been times & places in which the J&J was the only realistic option.

I don't know if that was the case for this lady or not.

I do know that more factual information provided by trusted sources is better.

I really hope (probably foolishly) that the importance of trust is one thing that has been / can be learned through this pandemic.

Sure, I'm well aware it's contraindicated for some people; I don't know why you say "believe it or not". It's not contraindicated for very many people, fortunately, but a very small number. This woman lived in the Seattle area, and I know from people who live there that the vaccines are plentiful, and the one I know who got J&J had to look harder for it to have that option. Given this woman's anti vax history and the fact that she was only getting vaccinated to volunteer in her kids' school (which is still super heartbreaking to me), the anti vax sentiment against mRNA vaccines is highly likely to be why she got the riskier J&J. I'm just saying that when I was lying awake, that was one of many things that struck me as adding layers of tragedy to it.

[MercyA]

5 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

start a new one, I might bite…again. 

NOOOO thank you. 😉 Contrary to popular opinion, it's not a fun topic for me either. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by MercyA

[Jean in Newcastle]

33 minutes ago, MercyA said:

She was in Seattle and her husband received the Pfizer vaccine. She very likely could have gone to a different pharmacy or her own physician to receive something other than J&J. The article didn't say anything about mRNA being contradicted for her. It's terribly tragic.

I agree with the bolded completely.

There were absolutely more choices here than the J&J. 

[wathe]

54 minutes ago, TCB said:

 

The main problem, in my opinion, throughout the pandemic, is that we have had to try and get people to act in the best interests of others, and not just themselves, and sadly there is a tremendous resistance to that. I’m really sad because I now realize that that is the kind of society I have to live in, and I really don’t want it to be so.

This. 

[heartlikealion]

I saw a billboard the other day that they (ok don’t recall who “they” is) are offering rides to elderly and disabled (their words not mine. Not trying to be disrespectful with terminology) to get vaccines. I hope this helps someone. 

Now I heard something on the radio the other day, a snippet about Moderna and Pfizer, that sounded negative but I still hope the pros outweigh the cons for getting vaccinated. Wish you could rewind on the radio! 

[KSera]

40 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Saying that I’m not going to win a popularity contest doesn’t refute the issue that obesity is more likely to land you in the hospital with COVID and in many cases that obesity is preventable. 

And being unvaccinated is more likely to land you in the hospital and that's an issue that can be resolved with a fifteen minute pharmacy visit, unlike obesity, which someone is unlikely to resolve in the next two months. Age is an even higher risk factor for severe covid than obesity. How do we solve that one?

30 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

 Yes, mRNA have been in the work for decades. Have you seen Dr Robert Malone’s position on them? He invented the technology decades ago.  Check him out on Twitter. 
 

All vaccines previously released to the public were studied for 3-7+ years.  MANY vaccines never made it to the general public because they had long term side effects. We simply don’t know, and just because YOU are ok with that gamble, doesn’t automatically make some other mother selfish because she’s not comfortable with that gamble on her child’s life. 

I think most people here who are educated on covid matters are well aware of what Robert Malone says and takes credit for. I don't think I'm up for getting into it again. You might want to read up on what people with current experience with mRNA technology (and those who worked on it at the same time he "invented" it) say.

There are many reasons that past vaccines usually took that long to be released, some having to do with funding, which was accelerated in this case, and others having to do with reaching study end points. It requires reaching a predetermined number of people who contract or die of a disease to reach the end point of a vaccine trial in order to see if the vaccine successfully reduced morbidity. WIth most diseases, that takes a very long time. Unfortunately, with Covid being a pandemic, those end points were reached very, very quickly. Those are the reasons it didn't take as long to determine the Covid vaccine was safe and effective. Nothing was skipped. People who choose not to get vaccinated need to understand they are taking a gamble as well, unless they are avoiding all contact with other people. The gamble is vaccine or Covid. Covid clearly has hugely greater risks than the vaccine.  As discovered too late my hundreds of thousands of people who also thought they didn't want to "gamble" with the well tested vaccine and instead would gamble with the (poorly tested) virus itself.

29 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

We do not all define ‘life’ the way you do which is the assumption underlying your comparison. Seriously, stop.

FWIW, I think it's hurting the main point to insist on shutting down this side point. Mercy was making a valid point about being pro life meaning people should be protecting all other people, and to shut it down will also shut down other people who might otherwise have considered other valid points being made. Obviously, people can say what they want, but I think the greater good here would have been to let it stand, knowing the conversation would move on from that. I understand it's an even more sensitive issue than usual at the moment, though.

[heartlikealion]

35 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

W.T.A.F.?

Seriously trolling. That is what this is. Nine posts and the first one very political on a board with warnings about politics, and now claiming to know what people feed their kids.

 

Not laughing at you, just laughing at the bluntness/delivery. 

[BronzeTurtle]

23 minutes ago, TCB said:

I don’t know what to think about mandates, but I don’t necessarily think the primary purpose of mandating a vaccine is for the good of the individual getting it. I think it comes from a public health perspective of trying to end the pandemic as soon as possible. It’s not perfect but being vaccinated does reduce your chances of getting infected and reduces your chances of passing it on if you do get infected. For vaccinations to help to end the pandemic there needs to be sufficient people vaccinated to reduce transmission, to enable it to end. Somehow, by hook or by crook, I think, from a public health perspective, you have to get sufficient people vaccinated. Not saying I agree with all the methods and tactics, but I can understand, academically where they are coming from.

The main problem, in my opinion, throughout the pandemic, is that we have had to try and get people to act in the best interests of others, and not just themselves, and sadly there is a tremendous resistance to that. I’m really sad because I now realize that that is the kind of society I have to live in, and I really don’t want it to be so.

I hate to say but this has never been the case. everyone, every last one of us will always act in our own best interests, or in the interest of our families. That is the basis for the study of public health, economics, sociology, any soft science that involves human individual choice making. Even people who want vax mandates or requirements largely want them so that they themselves are less at risk, not because they care about the perfect stranger eating a 2,500 calorie dinner at the restaurant table next to them. They are generally fine with a dude doing that, as long as they are not affected. But you can see people are not really concerned about others when they talk about an unvaccinated person not being worthy of hospital beds, or insurance coverage, or a pill to help covid, or the antibody treatment. There is a lot of contempt and people saying they don't give any more f's about the unvaccinated they just don't want the hospitals used up when they need it. People who post about the pandemic of the unvaccinated take trips and get covid and likely spread it.  Even prominent people who are very pro-vaccine have been seen not complying with health orders that they imposed after it was found that vaccination was not sterilizing -- because they personally feel their own risk is low or the socialization is worth it! Everyone does this all the time. It is why the idea of loving your neighbor as yourself is so revolutionary and involves disregarding one's own personal health, for example, to serve the sick, even the sick who made horrible choices.

If a mom thinks that her individual son is at risk of life-changing myocarditis from a vaccine, she likely will not give her kid that vax despite the overal benefit to the population. Having that diagnosis on one's medical record, no matter how "mild" or recoverabel can change your prospects for certain careers, playing sports, etc. And then when you see the cdc recommendations that a person should get a second shot even if they have diagnosed myo or peri carditis from the first shot that, to me, looks like lunacy and not anything a thinking doctor would recommend. But it is policy for everyone. It is inflexible if you want to go into a restaurant in NYC, or keep your job at certain places. So you have this individual mom with a 15yo son who sees that she's supposed to do this even if her kid gets heart problems and what she needs is someone to trust. The person to trust is not the person saying that she's dumb because the risk of the vaccine is far lower than covid, or her son will likely recover, or she needs to do it to be a good neighbor. It isn't being a good neighbor to her to force that decision on to her and her son, to tell her she's being irrational and jab her kid anyway.

And a doctor has to treat the individual in front of him, right? So if a patient is allergic to a vaccine, the doctor doesn't say that person should have it. It goes without saying! There's no option for that person with broad inflexible mandates, especially not mandates that are passed down by the government and not even legislated but rather simply written as policy in federal law. I don't think the US has done this yet, but if I understand right, it's being written right now and many companies are preemptively enacting these policies. And people who have contempt for the unvaxxed will give lip service to medical exemptions but I think a lot of people don't believe there to be any significant number of them, enough to really affect them in a meaningful way. And forget about conscience or religious exemptions. The people in favor of mandates give no quarter to those.

The trouble is that there are a million and zillion variables like that for everyone in the population. And most of them mean that a person can and should get vaccinated. But in order to enforce a vaccine passport or the like you have to get into everyone's various medical pecadillos and personal choices. 

A pediatrician once told me (way back in the day) that when a parent brings their kid in for a well visit or any visit and the kid isn't caught up on shots, they will not under any circumstances make the parent feel bad or shame them for not getting the vaccines on time. Why? Because who wants to bring their kid to the doctor if they think they are going to be in trouble? Peds would rather just catch them up as best they can and keep the parent and kid in good faith and trust in the doctors office than even give them a lecture. Maybe this guy was rare or it was just how things used to be. Their goal was getting as many kids as current on vaccines as possible and they couldn't do that with shame or pain to the parents.

So that is the whole goal of public health. Books, degrees, tomes have been written on how you get people to make individual choices that are good for the population as a whole. Academically, public health has never been about by hook or by crook. At least not up to this point. It has been about understanding individuals make up public health and individuals will always, always make choices that are contrary to what you or I might think is best for them and could be detrimental to society. In places where it has been about imparting suffering in order to gain compliance, that's pretty much not gone well long term for society because you lose a lot in doing that. Sociology is complicated. Getting people to vaccinate for covid by any means necessary is short sighted. Why not allow for titers or antibodies at this point? That is something I truly don't understand. Why not allow medical exemptions.

A vaccine is not like a seatbelt either. Once it's in, you're not taking it out of you and stoping someone from getting a clot or myocarditis. You don't put it on and off all day long with no real changes to your own body. It has no side effects for anyone and simply wearing a seatbelt isn't a risk in the same way.

I say all this as a fully vaccinated against covid person. I have to laugh, too, because I have a friend who is so pro-vax for covid but won't get a flu shot despite having a toddler at home. People are complicated. I had a relative die by ARDS a few years before the pandemic (caused by COPD, in a relatively healthy 80yo person who never smoked and ate super healthy their entire life for what its worth). I'm not ignorant of what that is. It just seems to me that in forcing this and advocating for forcing this via shame or pain, the consequences will not be good long term.

[MercyA]

34 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Seriously trolling. That is what this is. Nine posts and the first one very political on a board with warnings about politics, and now claiming to know what people feed their kids.

Maybe. Although, to be fair, I think one of my first posts here almost ten years ago was an anti-vax one. (Please, no one go back and look. It's embarrassing. I'm looking at you, @Not_a_Number.) 

I wasn't trying to troll. I just thought I knew what I was talking about (I didn't) and that Someone Was Wrong on the Internet. 

I'm glad I stuck around.

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, KSera said:

And being unvaccinated is more likely to land you in the hospital and that's an issue that can be resolved with a fifteen minute pharmacy visit, unlike obesity, which someone is unlikely to resolve in the next two months. Age is an even higher risk factor for severe covid than obesity. How do we solve that one?

I think most people here who are educated on covid matters are well aware of what Robert Malone says and takes credit for. I don't think I'm up for getting into it again. You might want to read up on what people with current experience with mRNA technology (and those who worked on it at the same time he "invented" it) say.

There are many reasons that past vaccines usually took that long to be released, some having to do with funding, which was accelerated in this case, and others having to do with reaching study end points. It requires reaching a predetermined number of people who contract or die of a disease to reach the end point of a vaccine trial in order to see if the vaccine successfully reduced morbidity. WIth most diseases, that takes a very long time. Unfortunately, with Covid being a pandemic, those end points were reached very, very quickly. Those are the reasons it didn't take as long to determine the Covid vaccine was safe and effective. Nothing was skipped. People who choose not to get vaccinated need to understand they are taking a gamble as well, unless they are avoiding all contact with other people. The gamble is vaccine or Covid. Covid clearly has hugely greater risks than the vaccine.  As discovered too late my hundreds of thousands of people who also thought they didn't want to "gamble" with the well tested vaccine and instead would gamble with the (poorly tested) virus itself.

FWIW, I think it's hurting the main point to insist on shutting down this side point. Mercy was making a valid point about being pro life meaning people should be protecting all other people, and to shut it down will also shut down other people who might otherwise have considered other valid points being made. Obviously, people can say what they want, but I think the greater good here would have been to let it stand, knowing the conversation would move on from that. I understand it's an even more sensitive issue than usual at the moment, though.

I

am

pro-human life.

BORN, breathing life.

I do not agree that embryos=humans.

I agree with Mercy on many things. That’s not one of them but I’m perfectly happy to have that discussed.

The point being made was that there’s a contradiction or equivalence between abortion and COVID which makes those complaining about the one and not the other hypocritical.

Sorry, no.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

A vaccine is not like a seatbelt either. Once it's in, you're not taking it out of you and stoping someone from getting a clot or myocarditis. You don't put it on and off all day long with no real changes to your own body. It has no side effects for anyone and simply wearing a seatbelt isn't a risk in the same way.

In the example I used, it is. Once you're in an accident with a seatbelt on and the car catches fire, you can't rewind the clock and go back and have the accident without the seatbelt on. My point was that something that is clearly usually a lifesaving measure can sometimes have a bad side effect, but that bad luck doesn't mean that it wasn't the right choice in general.

[Evelyn2108]

47 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

Oh dear God! That is the same idiotic snippet my Dad found via tik tok. Meanwhile, his pulmonologist and GP are urging him to get the vax.

Saying it’s idiotic is not an argument and does not make it untrue. 

[Sneezyone]

Just now, Evelyn2108 said:

Saying it’s idiotic is not an argument and does not make it untrue. 

Not interested. I have enough to deal with my dad’s cray. You’re just not that important to me. Sorry not sorry.

[KSera]

1 minute ago, Sneezyone said:

The point being made was that there’s a contradiction or equivalence between abortion and COVID which makes those complaining about the one and not the other hypocritical.

I was looking at it the other way. That if people claim to be pro-life and care about unborn life, they should care about born life and elderly life as well. I understand you have a different definition of pro-life than they do, I'm just saying that I think shutting down that different definition in this particular discussion is probably counter productive if the goal is for people to consider the other information being presented in this thread.

[Evelyn2108]

10 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I hate to say but this has never been the case. everyone, every last one of us will always act in our own best interests, or in the interest of our families. That is the basis for the study of public health, economics, sociology, any soft science that involves human individual choice making. Even people who want vax mandates or requirements largely want them so that they themselves are less at risk, not because they care about the perfect stranger eating a 2,500 calorie dinner at the restaurant table next to them. They are generally fine with a dude doing that, as long as they are not affected. But you can see people are not really concerned about others when they talk about an unvaccinated person not being worthy of hospital beds, or insurance coverage, or a pill to help covid, or the antibody treatment. There is a lot of contempt and people saying they don't give any more f's about the unvaccinated they just don't want the hospitals used up when they need it. People who post about the pandemic of the unvaccinated take trips and get covid and likely spread it.  Even prominent people who are very pro-vaccine have been seen not complying with health orders that they imposed after it was found that vaccination was not sterilizing -- because they personally feel their own risk is low or the socialization is worth it! Everyone does this all the time. It is why the idea of loving your neighbor as yourself is so revolutionary and involves disregarding one's own personal health, for example, to serve the sick, even the sick who made horrible choices.

If a mom thinks that her individual son is at risk of life-changing myocarditis from a vaccine, she likely will not give her kid that vax despite the overal benefit to the population. Having that diagnosis on one's medical record, no matter how "mild" or recoverabel can change your prospects for certain careers, playing sports, etc. And then when you see the cdc recommendations that a person should get a second shot even if they have diagnosed myo or peri carditis from the first shot that, to me, looks like lunacy and not anything a thinking doctor would recommend. But it is policy for everyone. It is inflexible if you want to go into a restaurant in NYC, or keep your job at certain places. So you have this individual mom with a 15yo son who sees that she's supposed to do this even if her kid gets heart problems and what she needs is someone to trust. The person to trust is not the person saying that she's dumb because the risk of the vaccine is far lower than covid, or her son will likely recover, or she needs to do it to be a good neighbor. It isn't being a good neighbor to her to force that decision on to her and her son, to tell her she's being irrational and jab her kid anyway.

And a doctor has to treat the individual in front of him, right? So if a patient is allergic to a vaccine, the doctor doesn't say that person should have it. It goes without saying! There's no option for that person with broad inflexible mandates, especially not mandates that are passed down by the government and not even legislated but rather simply written as policy in federal law. I don't think the US has done this yet, but if I understand right, it's being written right now and many companies are preemptively enacting these policies. And people who have contempt for the unvaxxed will give lip service to medical exemptions but I think a lot of people don't believe there to be any significant number of them, enough to really affect them in a meaningful way. And forget about conscience or religious exemptions. The people in favor of mandates give no quarter to those.

The trouble is that there are a million and zillion variables like that for everyone in the population. And most of them mean that a person can and should get vaccinated. But in order to enforce a vaccine passport or the like you have to get into everyone's various medical pecadillos and personal choices. 

A pediatrician once told me (way back in the day) that when a parent brings their kid in for a well visit or any visit and the kid isn't caught up on shots, they will not under any circumstances make the parent feel bad or shame them for not getting the vaccines on time. Why? Because who wants to bring their kid to the doctor if they think they are going to be in trouble? Peds would rather just catch them up as best they can and keep the parent and kid in good faith and trust in the doctors office than even give them a lecture. Maybe this guy was rare or it was just how things used to be. Their goal was getting as many kids as current on vaccines as possible and they couldn't do that with shame or pain to the parents.

So that is the whole goal of public health. Books, degrees, tomes have been written on how you get people to make individual choices that are good for the population as a whole. Academically, public health has never been about by hook or by crook. At least not up to this point. It has been about understanding individuals make up public health and individuals will always, always make choices that are contrary to what you or I might think is best for them and could be detrimental to society. In places where it has been about imparting suffering in order to gain compliance, that's pretty much not gone well long term for society because you lose a lot in doing that. Sociology is complicated. Getting people to vaccinate for covid by any means necessary is short sighted. Why not allow for titers or antibodies at this point? That is something I truly don't understand. Why not allow medical exemptions.

A vaccine is not like a seatbelt either. Once it's in, you're not taking it out of you and stoping someone from getting a clot or myocarditis. You don't put it on and off all day long with no real changes to your own body. It has no side effects for anyone and simply wearing a seatbelt isn't a risk in the same way.

I say all this as a fully vaccinated against covid person. I have to laugh, too, because I have a friend who is so pro-vax for covid but won't get a flu shot despite having a toddler at home. People are complicated. I had a relative die by ARDS a few years before the pandemic (caused by COPD, in a relatively healthy 80yo person who never smoked and ate super healthy their entire life for what its worth). I'm not ignorant of what that is. It just seems to me that in forcing this and advocating for forcing this via shame or pain, the consequences will not be good long term.

Couldn’t agree with you more. 

[KSera]

6 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Saying it’s idiotic is not an argument and does not make it untrue. 

Right. It’s the actual facts that make it untrue. 

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Evelyn2108 said:

This thread is about people and the choices they make and how those choices impact the pandemic.  
 

Saying that I’m not going to win a popularity contest doesn’t refute the issue that obesity is more likely to land you in the hospital with COVID and in many cases that obesity is preventable. 

Actually it isn't in many, many cases.  The latest research on weight has shown that the worse situation is gaining then losing then gaining weight--- up and down is the real threat.  Furthermore, as more research is done, it seems like in many cases- and I am talking about what is called obesity- not morbid obesity-  is not actually a bad health risk overall.  For many diseases, having some extra weight improves survivability- including having blood clots.

[frogger]

15 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I hate to say but this has never been the case. everyone, every last one of us will always act in our own best interests, or in the interest of our families. That is the basis for the study of public health, economics, sociology, any soft science that involves human individual choice making. Even people who want vax mandates or requirements largely want them so that they themselves are less at risk, not because they care about the perfect stranger eating a 2,500 calorie dinner at the restaurant table next to them. They are generally fine with a dude doing that, as long as they are not affected. But you can see people are not really concerned about others when they talk about an unvaccinated person not being worthy of hospital beds, or insurance coverage, or a pill to help covid, or the antibody treatment. There is a lot of contempt and people saying they don't give any more f's about the unvaccinated they just don't want the hospitals used up when they need it. People who post about the pandemic of the unvaccinated take trips and get covid and likely spread it.  Even prominent people who are very pro-vaccine have been seen not complying with health orders that they imposed after it was found that vaccination was not sterilizing -- because they personally feel their own risk is low or the socialization is worth it! Everyone does this all the time. It is why the idea of loving your neighbor as yourself is so revolutionary and involves disregarding one's own personal health, for example, to serve the sick, even the sick who made horrible choices.

If a mom thinks that her individual son is at risk of life-changing myocarditis from a vaccine, she likely will not give her kid that vax despite the overal benefit to the population. Having that diagnosis on one's medical record, no matter how "mild" or recoverabel can change your prospects for certain careers, playing sports, etc. And then when you see the cdc recommendations that a person should get a second shot even if they have diagnosed myo or peri carditis from the first shot that, to me, looks like lunacy and not anything a thinking doctor would recommend. But it is policy for everyone. It is inflexible if you want to go into a restaurant in NYC, or keep your job at certain places. So you have this individual mom with a 15yo son who sees that she's supposed to do this even if her kid gets heart problems and what she needs is someone to trust. The person to trust is not the person saying that she's dumb because the risk of the vaccine is far lower than covid, or her son will likely recover, or she needs to do it to be a good neighbor. It isn't being a good neighbor to her to force that decision on to her and her son, to tell her she's being irrational and jab her kid anyway.

And a doctor has to treat the individual in front of him, right? So if a patient is allergic to a vaccine, the doctor doesn't say that person should have it. It goes without saying! There's no option for that person with broad inflexible mandates, especially not mandates that are passed down by the government and not even legislated but rather simply written as policy in federal law. I don't think the US has done this yet, but if I understand right, it's being written right now and many companies are preemptively enacting these policies. And people who have contempt for the unvaxxed will give lip service to medical exemptions but I think a lot of people don't believe there to be any significant number of them, enough to really affect them in a meaningful way. And forget about conscience or religious exemptions. The people in favor of mandates give no quarter to those.

The trouble is that there are a million and zillion variables like that for everyone in the population. And most of them mean that a person can and should get vaccinated. But in order to enforce a vaccine passport or the like you have to get into everyone's various medical pecadillos and personal choices. 

A pediatrician once told me (way back in the day) that when a parent brings their kid in for a well visit or any visit and the kid isn't caught up on shots, they will not under any circumstances make the parent feel bad or shame them for not getting the vaccines on time. Why? Because who wants to bring their kid to the doctor if they think they are going to be in trouble? Peds would rather just catch them up as best they can and keep the parent and kid in good faith and trust in the doctors office than even give them a lecture. Maybe this guy was rare or it was just how things used to be. Their goal was getting as many kids as current on vaccines as possible and they couldn't do that with shame or pain to the parents.

So that is the whole goal of public health. Books, degrees, tomes have been written on how you get people to make individual choices that are good for the population as a whole. Academically, public health has never been about by hook or by crook. At least not up to this point. It has been about understanding individuals make up public health and individuals will always, always make choices that are contrary to what you or I might think is best for them and could be detrimental to society. In places where it has been about imparting suffering in order to gain compliance, that's pretty much not gone well long term for society because you lose a lot in doing that. Sociology is complicated. Getting people to vaccinate for covid by any means necessary is short sighted. Why not allow for titers or antibodies at this point? That is something I truly don't understand. Why not allow medical exemptions.

A vaccine is not like a seatbelt either. Once it's in, you're not taking it out of you and stoping someone from getting a clot or myocarditis. You don't put it on and off all day long with no real changes to your own body. It has no side effects for anyone and simply wearing a seatbelt isn't a risk in the same way.

I say all this as a fully vaccinated against covid person. I have to laugh, too, because I have a friend who is so pro-vax for covid but won't get a flu shot despite having a toddler at home. People are complicated. I had a relative die by ARDS a few years before the pandemic (caused by COPD, in a relatively healthy 80yo person who never smoked and ate super healthy their entire life for what its worth). I'm not ignorant of what that is. It just seems to me that in forcing this and advocating for forcing this via shame or pain, the consequences will not be good long term.

I definitely don't want my son dealing with myocarditis which is why I allowed him to be vaccinated. He wanted to though I would have encouraged it if he hadn't. Contracting Covid-19 unvaccinated leads to a much higher risk of myocarditis. His entire highly athletic ski club is ready to race all vaccinated. 

[BronzeTurtle]

Just now, KSera said:

In the example I used, it is. Once you're in an accident with a seatbelt on and the car catches fire, you can't rewind the clock and go back and have the accident without the seatbelt on. My point was that something that is clearly usually a lifesaving measure can sometimes have a bad side effect, but that bad luck doesn't mean that it wasn't the right choice in general.

Ok, it is the same in that specific circumstance.

I have seen people making a more broad comparison as public health measure that we all just wear seatbelts to protect ourselves like a vaccine protects us. What kind of dumb dumbs don't want to wear seatbelts, right???!  My point being that in most cases we can remove the affects of a seatbelt whereas we can never do so once we take a vaccine or other medication. In an ideal seatbelt situation, you can take it off quite easily. In an ideal vaccine situation, the safety affects never wear off.  It's a huge difference in terms of safety measures people might be willing to take. I would venture a guess that seatbelt caused deaths are far more rare than bad side effects from any given kind of vaccine or medication, especially in certain populations.

[TCB]

1 hour ago, Evelyn2108 said:

 Yes, mRNA have been in the work for decades. Have you seen Dr Robert Malone’s position on them? He invented the technology decades ago.  Check him out on Twitter. 
 

All vaccines previously released to the public were studied for 3-7+ years.  MANY vaccines never made it to the general public because they had long term side effects. We simply don’t know, and just because YOU are ok with that gamble, doesn’t automatically make some other mother selfish because she’s not comfortable with that gamble on her child’s life. 

This might interest you.

 

[KSera]

3 minutes ago, frogger said:

I definitely don't want my son dealing with myocarditis which is why I allowed him to be vaccinated. He wanted to though I would have encouraged it if he hadn't. Contracting Covid-19 unvaccinated leads to a much higher risk of myocarditis. His entire highly athletic ski club is ready to race all vaccinated. 

Seems like a good place to share this again. 

[Evelyn2108]

.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Evelyn2108

[BronzeTurtle]

1 minute ago, frogger said:

I definitely don't want my son dealing with myocarditis which is why I allowed him to be vaccinated. He wanted to though I would have encouraged it if he hadn't. Contracting Covid-19 unvaccinated leads to a much higher risk of myocarditis. His entire highly athletic ski club is ready to race all vaccinated. 

That is great. Truly. I don't begrudge anyone making this choice.

But of course it isn't the only obvious choice when I have seen credential doctors (cardiologists, peds, etc) argue about it on various social media platforms. Different countries (UK for example) have even implemented different vax protocols for young men based on their vaccine govt commissions making different assessments about risk and benefit (not vaccine supply issues). I know that's not like people I know, but that's the only way I have access to highly credentialed people.

Anyway, I think it is understandable that people might come to a different conclusion for their kids given individual doctors, kids, and guidelines from various places.

[KSera]

Just now, Evelyn2108 said:

I’m the one who is aware of his tweets

I know you’re new here, but he and his positions have been discussed at some length here before.

[Evelyn2108]

4 minutes ago, TCB said:

This might interest you.

 

Why would this interest me? I’m the one who raised his Twitter account. I’m well aware of his body of work and generally agree with the majority of his positions.  
 

He advises at risk populations to get vaccinated, but doesn’t recommend for healthy children. There’s a lot more nuance then that... 

[Evelyn2108]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I know you’re new here, but he and his positions have been discussed at some length here before.

Well then why are people trolling saying anyone who doesn’t want to get vaccinated is selfish?  Clearly the message was lost. 

[frogger]

4 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I think this is the type of comment, attitude, and thinking that some of those who are choosing not to vaccinate are reacting to.  (I have had in depth conversations with people I know who are not vaccinated and there are a wide set of reasons).  Saying things like we've been trying to get people to vaccinate for almost a year seems like exageration when 7 months ago I know it was terribly difficult to get an appointment for a vaccine where I was.  It has been less than 6 months in my area since there were more appointments than people choosing to vaccinate.

While grown adults are choosing not to vaccinate, they are compared to children having a temper tantrum. who need to calm down  Those who want them to vaccinate are the discplining parent.  Saying that "if you had done what I think you should do, then I wouldn't make you do it" is a very odd way, in m opinion, to treat adults.  Personally I don't want a government that is doing the equivalent of sending adults to their room until they are ready to calm down and follow the rules.

I am vaccinated and want others to vaccinate.  At the same time, I want a government that treats adult citizens as adult citizens the government serves, not as children who are having a temper tantrum that the govenrment needs to discipline.  

I do wonder if people would have an easier time accepting the unvaccinated if they actually cared about others.

My mother is unvaccinated. I don't have a problem with it. She respects business owners and obeys property rules if they require masks. If she is exposed, she won't test (because Government🙄) but she will skip sew-ins and such and just stay home for awhile. 

I think it is much harder to treat people with respect that push lies, spit on nurses, wear yellow stars, ignore private property,  and want to sue hospitals for not giving them bogus treatments that could be filed under medical malpractice. That is so much harder and you must understand that just as the unvaccinated react to people calling them toddlers having a temper tantrum so are vaccinated reacting to all this craziness. The crazy people are not acting like adults and people get fed up. 

 

I think it is a good thing for both sides to remember not all people are in the extreme one way or the other and there are rational people on both sides but I also get being fed up with the garbage.

[BronzeTurtle]

These doctors are not cranks. I know people disagree with them as I have seen the discussions. You may even disagree. I think it is worthwhile to consider what's being debated. Does anyone think it might be possible that the cdc or fda revise guidelines for shots or dosages for young men in the future given further study? What happens to parents who have waited in that case? What happens to people who didn't wait and had side effects? Or people who didn't wait and think those who are waiting for the kids are idiots or unworthy of resources should their kids fall ill?

We are mostly all of us doing the best we can with the information we have, I think. No one is out there saying they want their kids to have complications from covid or complications from a vaccine. There has to be some middle discussion able to happen I think.

 

https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/second-opinions/93340

 

 

https://www.wired.com/story/the-cdc-owes-parents-better-messaging-on-the-vaccine-for-kids/

Edited October 12, 2021 by BronzeTurtle

[TCB]

5 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Why would this interest me? I’m the one who raised his Twitter account. I’m well aware of his body of work and generally agree with the majority of his positions.  
 

He advises at risk populations to get vaccinated, but doesn’t recommend for healthy children. There’s a lot more nuance then that... 

I don’t think anyone on here has said they think healthy children should be mandated to have the vaccine, rather that they want children, and parents, to have the option to be vaccinated. As far as I’m aware, other than California schools, there aren’t mandates for children.

It’s a bit hard to have a productive discussion, by the way, when you move the goal posts. To be fair though, I don’t really get the impression that you are after a productive discussion.

[Evelyn2108]

9 minutes ago, KSera said:

Seems like a good place to share this again. 

There is data to support both vaccinating and not vaccinating. We are all individuals with individual risk profiles and need to make individual decisions with gp’s that we trust.  
 

Blanket statements that “people who don’t vaccinated are selfish” is ignorant and dangerous because it is used to justify totalitarian measures.  
 

 

[BronzeTurtle]

I found something more recent too

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/06/health/covid-vaccine-children-dose.html

Just to say it is not cut and dry for some populations.

[Evelyn2108]

31 minutes ago, TCB said:

I don’t think anyone on here has said they think healthy children should be mandated to have the vaccine, rather that they want children, and parents, to have the option to be vaccinated. As far as I’m aware, other than California schools, there aren’t mandates for children.

It’s a bit hard to have a productive discussion, by the way, when you move the goal posts. To be fair though, I don’t really get the impression that you are after a productive discussion.

This is not a strictly USA forum, I’m from Canada and 12yo are mandated with vaccine passports in most of the country.  
 

If your definition of productive means I have to agree with you, then I’m afraid I will fall short.
 

I’m not anti vax, I’m not pro vax.  There are reasonable arguments to be made for both.  Someone on this thread called me “crazy”, which is very childish. 
 

I’m pro choice, anti mandate.  If that is crazy, then so be it.  

[Evelyn2108]

58 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Actually it isn't in many, many cases.  The latest research on weight has shown that the worse situation is gaining then losing then gaining weight--- up and down is the real threat.  Furthermore, as more research is done, it seems like in many cases- and I am talking about what is called obesity- not morbid obesity-  is not actually a bad health risk overall.  For many diseases, having some extra weight improves survivability- including having blood clots.

Re obesity being preventable: In 1950 10% of the US population was obese. Today the rate of obesity is 42%.  Probably, some large portion of that increase is preventable.  These numbers don’t include overweight people, just the obese.  

[KSera]

50 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Well then why are people trolling saying anyone who doesn’t want to get vaccinated is selfish?  Clearly the message was lost. 

I don't think that's the main message at all. There may be some people who say that, but the message is that people who don't get vaccinated are at risk.

43 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

These doctors are not cranks. I know people disagree with them as I have seen the discussions. You may even disagree. I think it is worthwhile to consider what's being debated. Does anyone think it might be possible that the cdc or fda revise guidelines for shots or dosages for young men in the future given further study? What happens to parents who have waited in that case? What happens to people who didn't wait and had side effects? Or people who didn't wait and think those who are waiting for the kids are idiots or unworthy of resources should their kids fall ill?

We are mostly all of us doing the best we can with the information we have, I think. No one is out there saying they want their kids to have complications from covid or complications from a vaccine. There has to be some middle discussion able to happen I think.

I don't think any of this discussion has been about vaccinating kids. That's not the problem we are having. The problem is that grown adults, who are very definitely at risk, have been convinced by bad actors and misinformation that the vaccine is a higher risk to them than the disease. And at this point ~200,000 of those people are dead who would have lived had they gotten the shot. I can't for the life of me figure out why that reality seems to have zero impact or sense of tragedy for the bulk of the anti-vax people out there. It seems like a big old "*shrug* they shouldn't have been old or fat" nothing burger to all the people who are have bought into all the vaccine scare tactics.

42 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

There is data to support both vaccinating and not vaccinating. We are all individuals with individual risk profiles and need to make individual decisions with gp’s that we trust.  
 

Blanket statements that “people who don’t vaccinated are selfish” is ignorant and dangerous because it is used to justify totalitarian measures.  
 

Very little of the argument here is based on "people who don't vaccinate are selfish" and it's not an argument that I have ever made. My point is that people who don't vaccinate (contraindications aside) are putting themselves and those around them at much higher risk. That's a data-based fact. The lie is that there is any kind of close call for most people in deciding which decision the data supports. For the overwhelming majority of people, the facts are clear that being vaccinated is far and away the safest choice for them.

[frogger]

2 hours ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Most people are fat because they overeat.  It’s totally preventable.  Worse yet, they abuse their children by feeding them garbage.  
 

Maybe we should have medical ids that one has to present when buying junk food.  If you are overweight, no buying unhealthy foods.  
 

There is after all a social cost to obesity.  Medical bills, orphaned children, lost productivity, etc... the ICUs would not have been overwhelmed if it weren’t for the obese.  
 

If we’re willing to regulate one choice, why not the other.  Slippery slope.  Once you go fascist there is no turning back. 

I actually don't find this true in most cases. I see overweight people (people I'm very close to) eating like birds while my 6' 2" 140lb son literally ate 50 donuts in a week the week before last. I asked him what happened to the rest of the last dozen but he was nice and shared.

No I didn't teach him to eat like that and honestly he needs as many calories as he can get and gets tired of eating.

 

I really don't think being obese is contagious. If I work in an office with a obese co worker, am I going to get obese and die? Will my loved one in a nursing home catch obesity from a nurse and die a miserable death all alone? 

 

I think there are good arguments for not having a mandate but it is comments like this that make people think you aren't interested in a productive rational conversation. 

 

Since you seemed to be wondering.

Edited October 12, 2021 by frogger

[TCB]

19 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

This is not a strictly USA forum, I’m from Canada and 12yo are mandated with vaccine passports in most of the country.  
 

If your definition of productive means I have to agree with you, then I’m afraid I will fall short.
 

Where are these vaccine passports mandated for? What type of places? I realize there are people from many places on the forum. I’m from the UK myself, but live in the US. 
 

I don’t define a productive discussion as being one in which everyone agrees. I have found though, that someone who almost immediately comes up with the whole Nazi thing, isn’t usually open to hearing other people’s points of view. Maybe you’re different.

[bolt.]

31 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

This is not a strictly USA forum, I’m from Canada and 12yo are mandated with vaccine passports in most of the country.  

To be clear, lest people get the wrong idea about Canada. There isn't *anywhere* in Canada that has mandated *vaccination* for children or adolescents at the present time.

What we do have is a patchwork of "passports" where people above the age of 12 sometimes must show proof of vaccination *only* in order to participate in certain *nonessential* activities, such as going to restaurants, movie theatres, travel by aircraft, etc.

No one is mandated to have or use these "passports" if they would rather not -- they would just have to refrain from those restricted activities until the numbers come down and the restrictions are lifted. The "passports" are an available document, used freely, by people who would like to take part in the currently-restricted activities, in order to show that they are qualified to do so.

(The "passports" are nothing more than a convenient form of one's existing vaccination records, in the form of a QR code or printable card.)

(We do have some employer-level mandates for the vaccination of adults in order to continue working where they are working. There isn't a government vaccination mandate for the general public. Although there are some blurred lines because the government is an employer. As an employer some governments (federal and provincial) have mandated vaccines for their employees.)

Edited October 12, 2021 by bolt.
Adding last paragraph

[Faith-manor]

20 minutes ago, bolt. said:

To be clear, lest people get the wrong idea about Canada. There isn't *anywhere* in Canada that has mandated *vaccination* for children or adolescents at the present time.

What we do have is a patchwork of "passports" where people above the age of 12 sometimes must show proof of vaccination *only* in order to participate in certain *nonessential* activities, such as going to restaurants, movie theatres, travel by aircraft, etc.

No one is mandated to have or use these "passports" if they would rather not -- they would just have to refrain from those restricted activities until the numbers come down and the restrictions are lifted. The "passports" are an available document, used freely, by people who would like to take part in the currently-restricted activities, in order to show that they are qualified to do so.

(The "passports" are nothing more than a convenient form of one's existing vaccination records, in the form of a QR code or printable card.)

(We do have some employer-level mandates for the vaccination of adults in order to continue working where they are working. There isn't a government vaccination mandate for the general public. Although there are some blurred lines because the government is an employer. As an employer some governments (federal and provincial) have mandated vaccines for their employees.)

Thank you for confirming what I suspected, hysteria that an optional, private business would have "rules", and that is somehow the end of the universe, the Nazis are coming. Sigh.

We have proof of vaccination here in Michigan. Several sports teams are requiring it in order to enter their stadiums. The Detroit Symphony Orchestra is requiring it in order to attend concerts in person, live stream subscription will still be available. No one has a basic human right to attend sporting events or concerts. This is just ridiculous hyperbole from the anti-vax community.

[bolt.]

Just now, Faith-manor said:

Thank you for confirming what I suspected, hysteria that an optional, private business would have "rules", and that is somehow the end of the universe, the Nazis are coming. Sigh.

To be fair (and clear) it's more than private businesses having rules that they are choosing for themselves.

In each province, the provincial government can say something like, "New restriction due to high case numbers. Starting Monday, all restaurants must either close to indoor dining, or require proof of vaccination from customers." So then *all* the restaurants (that remain open for indoor dining) now *have to* check the passports until that restriction is lifted by the government.

So it is quite hard on businesses. It's better than an actual lockdown because there is a way to stay open for at least the portion of their customers who are using the passports, but it's not optional. It's not the individual business' decision. The whole sector is subject to the same regulations province-wide.

[Sneezyone]

54 minutes ago, bolt. said:

To be clear, lest people get the wrong idea about Canada. There isn't *anywhere* in Canada that has mandated *vaccination* for children or adolescents at the present time.

What we do have is a patchwork of "passports" where people above the age of 12 sometimes must show proof of vaccination *only* in order to participate in certain *nonessential* activities, such as going to restaurants, movie theatres, travel by aircraft, etc.

No one is mandated to have or use these "passports" if they would rather not -- they would just have to refrain from those restricted activities until the numbers come down and the restrictions are lifted. The "passports" are an available document, used freely, by people who would like to take part in the currently-restricted activities, in order to show that they are qualified to do so.

(The "passports" are nothing more than a convenient form of one's existing vaccination records, in the form of a QR code or printable card.)

(We do have some employer-level mandates for the vaccination of adults in order to continue working where they are working. There isn't a government vaccination mandate for the general public. Although there are some blurred lines because the government is an employer. As an employer some governments (federal and provincial) have mandated vaccines for their employees.)

Kinda like my children and I in NYC this weekend. BTW-- Wicked was AWESOME! Fit it in if you can! Vaccine proof was required for all indoor dining and the show, also masks for the duration of the performance.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[SKL]

2 hours ago, TCB said:

I don’t think anyone on here has said they think healthy children should be mandated to have the vaccine, rather that they want children, and parents, to have the option to be vaccinated. As far as I’m aware, other than California schools, there aren’t mandates for children.

I do believe some on WTM want vax mandates for minors, including basically every age for which there is FDA approval.

[Jaybee]

Me too, @Quill, me too. In the past two weeks, a couple of things came up that emphasized to me again how tired I am of it. The first was a casual evening event spent with some of dh's co-workers. There was a new couple there, and toward the end of the evening, as some of us were asking questions to get to know them, the young wife started sharing some of her opinions. She used to be an OB hospital nurse, working mostly with high-risk pregnancies. She recently changed jobs due to a move and because she "would have been fired from her job before long" as she expects her father and brother to be (both in medical fields) because of refusal to be vaccinated. While another woman was really taking her side, "I can't believe they would do that" etc., etc., I was just stunned. I knew most of the men were vaccinated because they have to travel, but I hardly said anything else after that, and left soon after.

You see, I have a ddil who is pregnant and whose situation is precarious and high risk for premature birth. We celebrate each week as they pass another week's milestones. She was told she really must not get sick with ANYthing, especially not covid, because the babies (💜💜) need all the nutrition her body can provide. It doesn't need to be diverted in order to fight an illness. Thankfully, she has been vaccinated, but a nurse like this woman could put everything at risk for her and her babies. I just don't understand it. And she was so smug and proud of herself, that I couldn't bear to stay in the room much longer.

Then last week, a friend brought over a new acquaintance to meet me. We chit-chatted a good bit, then the friend had to leave. The new acquaintance stayed longer because of a child pickup she needed to do afterward and didn't want to head in the other direction. I had mentioned something earlier to my close friend about a vaccine situation, and after she had left, this new lady mentioned that she felt it really should be a personal choice. I don't think I was ever obnoxious about it, and she wasn't either, but it was definitely awkward. I said that I guess I felt strongly about it because I know eleven people who have died of it, and also one dd worked in a covid unit at the worst of things. She then proceeded to tell me of three people she knew that had died. I just kept thinking, "Then why wouldn't you want to get vaccinated? And why wouldn't you have wanted those three to be encouraged to get vaccinated?" 

I am trying to be understanding of those who don't have the advantage of starting reading the WTM threads at the beginning of a pandemic that kept me much more informed, but I'm getting weary of it, and am having trouble being patient with people's reluctance. It's also hard because we are in an area where skepticism runs high, and even good friends have different opinions than we do on it. 

[MercyA]

3 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

The point being made was that there’s a contradiction or equivalence between abortion and COVID which makes those complaining about the one and not the other hypocritical.

Huh. Speaking for myself, I never said or even thought that. If you truly don't believe embryos are living human beings, then there is no hypocrisy for you personally. 

I *do* think it's hypocritical for people who claim to care about life from the womb to the grave to seemingly not care about the hundreds of thousands of people unnecessarily and preventably dying from COVID in this country. That is one of the points I was trying to make. That, and that we as a society de-value life in many ways. 

Either I don't communicate well, or people are reading way too much into what I actually say. Probably a little of both. 😉