I feel so frustrated about people refusing vaccination…

[Ginevra]

…and needlessly suffering and causing others to suffer. I realize there *are* people who have legitimate reasons to refuse the vaccine, but I keep hearing about people refusing it *not* for legitimate reasons and paying the price, or others around them paying the price.

I just learned that dh’s aunt is in the hospital with COVID; she refused to be vaxxed and is 80+ years old. My niece, her husband, and baby all got COVID; husband is military and do is vaxxed - he had no symptoms. But niece was sick for days and the baby had a fever and malaise for three days. 😞 

We also just got a call at the firm from an older lady seeking custody of her 10 to grandkid because the child’s mom (her daughter) just died of COVID in September. She was not vaccinated, despite grandma urging her many times to “take COVID seriously” because she had pre-existing conditions that increased her risk. So this poor little kid lost his mom, possibly/probably needlessly. 
 

Im just really feeling upset about this today. 

[Katy]

I read yesterday that 140,000 American children have been orphaned by Covid.   So needless.

[bookbard]

16 minutes ago, Quill said:

Im just really feeling upset about this today. 

I  get it. I feel like so many people have been tricked into all of this vaccine refusal. And the politicians let them be tricked. It is so wrong.

 

[BusyMom5]

For the 80 year old aunt, I think we all need to accept that at some point death isn't a big scary boogie man.  She may have welcomed it, especially if her spouse was already passed.  At 80, it may have felt like the next step.  That sounds bad to many of us who are younger and looking forward to many more years, but I think we need to allow them to make their own choice about medical intervention.   

My heart breaks for all the kids who have lost a parent needlessly.  

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

For the 80 year old aunt, I think we all need to accept that at some point death isn't a big scary boogie man.  She may have welcomed it, especially if her spouse was already passed.  At 80, it may have felt like the next step.  That sounds bad to many of us who are younger and looking forward to many more years, but I think we need to allow them to make their own choice about medical intervention.   

My heart breaks for all the kids who have lost a parent needlessly.  

I doubt many people, no matter their age, would choose to be in a hospital bed, hungry for air. I mean, I get the gist of what you’re saying; I even just corrected someone who used the word “tragic” in referring to a 90+ yo person dying. That’s not tragic; it’s just normal. But I think refusing a covid vax because Tucker Carlson told you covid is no big deal and the vaccine is more likely to kill you - a lie, in other words - is a damn shame, no matter if your 50 or 102. 

[SarahB82]

Yes. It is easy to say you, “when it is my time to go, it is just my time to go”. It isn’t easy to suffocate to death separated from your loved ones. Why would anyone ever choose to do that is beyond me.

[Scarlett]

A couple of months ago a customer told us ‘they will have to chase me through the woods and catch me before I get a vaccine’.  And then for weeks we have been trying to reach him…..I finally got him on the phone today. He said he had been ‘fighting’.   He has been deathly ill with Covid. He was so sick I could barely understand him…..and this was many weeks after he contracted it.

[SoCal_Bear]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I read yesterday that 140,000 American children have been orphaned by Covid.   So needless.

That was number was pre-Delta...a lot more orphans now. I completely agree...a lot of senseless suffering and trauma that will never get fixed because you don't get over being orphaned. You just learn to cope and live with it.

[TechWife]

42 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

For the 80 year old aunt, I think we all need to accept that at some point death isn't a big scary boogie man.  She may have welcomed it, especially if her spouse was already passed.  At 80, it may have felt like the next step.  That sounds bad to many of us who are younger and looking forward to many more years, but I think we need to allow them to make their own choice about medical intervention.   

My heart breaks for all the kids who have lost a parent needlessly.  

First of all, the OP said that this woman is in the hospital.

I'm sorry, but this is an inappropriate response to the illness or death of an elderly person. Even when a person is elderly,  their life has value and we all need to realize that they might have made different decisions had they not received wrong information about the disease and/or the vaccine. I agree that competent adults can make their own decisions about medical intervention, but I also think that they deserve to receive accurate information so that they can evaluate it clearly. The age of the people becoming ill and dying doesn't absolve people from the responsibility of spreading lies.

[gardenmom5]

I'm sorry Quill,

 

I can understand some of your frustration.

Edited October 12, 2021 by gardenmom5

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

I read yesterday that 140,000 American children have been orphaned by Covid.   So needless.

It is tragic that children have lost a parent, caregiver, or other loved one.  However, this headline statistic is misleading.  This was a modeling study that tried to estimated the impact of COVID on children experience loss.  It is an estimate of how many children experienced the death of a primary or secondary caregiver-a grandparent living with the family in a multi-generational household was considered a secondary caregiver.  The authors estimated how many grandparents live in a home with grandchildren under 18 then extrapolated how many of those would die in addition to estimating how many children lost a parent.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, BusyMom5 said:

For the 80 year old aunt, I think we all need to accept that at some point death isn't a big scary boogie man.  She may have welcomed it, especially if her spouse was already passed.  At 80, it may have felt like the next step.  That sounds bad to many of us who are younger and looking forward to many more years, but I think we need to allow them to make their own choice about medical intervention.   

My heart breaks for all the kids who have lost a parent needlessly.  

And her niece and husband and the baby?  Were they also expendable?  (I realize that none of them have died but it's not ok to play Russian Roulette with their health and lives.) 

[Roadrunner]

I watched this segment on CNN (“His wife had cancer. Covid killed her in 8 days”) where they show an interview with a man refusing to vaccinate even though he first hand experienced the virus. I just don’t know. It’s pure stubbornness. It’s an interesting segment and short if anybody is interested. No reasoning with some people. 
 

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/09/us/ozarks-missouri-covid-vaccine/index.html

[EmilyGF]

It drives me bonkers, too, and I try to encourage my vaccine-skeptical friends and family whenever possible. I try, also, to remember those who have changed their opinions instead of focusing on the ones who haven't.

In my personal experience, those most ardently against the vaccine are people who are doctor-skeptical due to chronic health problems (like Lyme, CFS, etc) that have been dismissed or minimized by medical personnel. They have grown to distrust the medical establishment, find their own treatments, etc. They believe that vaccine problems will also be minimized by the medical establishment, like their own symptoms have been, so they won't use the vaccine. Sigh. Of course this isn't everyone, just those closest to me.

The 140,000 number refers to children who have lost a primary or secondary caregiver in the United States, whether said caregiver was related to them or not. This is tragic, but it isn't the number of children orphaned (which to me implies having two parents die).

[TechWife]

27 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

It is tragic that children have lost a parent, caregiver, or other loved one.  However, this headline statistic is misleading.  This was a modeling study that tried to estimated the impact of COVID on children experience loss.  It is an estimate of how many children experienced the death of a primary or secondary caregiver-a grandparent living with the family in a multi-generational household was considered a secondary caregiver.  The authors estimated how many grandparents live in a home with grandchildren under 18 then extrapolated how many of those would die in addition to estimating how many children lost a parent.  

Yes, that’s how statistics, data analysis and sociological research works. Nothing nefarious. Given reliable data from death certificates, census reports and other respected sources, we can learn a lot from data modeling. 

[Bootsie]

4 minutes ago, TechWife said:

Yes, that’s how statistics, data analysis and sociological research works. Nothing nefarious. Given reliable data from death certificates, census reports and other respected sources, we can learn a lot from data modeling. 

I would not consider someone living at home with two parents and a grandparent who has a the grandparent died as "orphaned"  The headlines are referring to that situation as "orphaned" I think that is an exageration and sensationalism.  

[EmilyGF]

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

I would not consider someone living at home with two parents and a grandparent who has a the grandparent died as "orphaned"  The headlines are referring to that situation as "orphaned" I think that is an exageration and sensationalism.  

I think we cross-posted. Using the term "orphaned" was misleading, IMO. 140,000 caregivers dying should be recognized as important in and of its own right. I thought this statistic meant that 280,000 parents of young children died, which didn't make any sense. That's why I went to find the CDC study. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p1007-covid-19-orphaned-children.html

[Bootsie]

8 minutes ago, EmilyGF said:

 

The 140,000 number refers to children who have lost a primary or secondary caregiver in the United States, whether said caregiver was related to them or not. This is tragic, but it isn't the number of children orphaned (which to me implies having two parents die).

I would also define "orphan" as a child who has no living parent.  Unicef defines "orphan" as a child who has one or both parents die, which I don't think is what the connotation is to most people.  This number even goes beyond that, because a grandparent (or aunt or uncle) in the household is also considered a caregiver simply from their presence in the houeshold.  

[KSera]

2 hours ago, bookbard said:

I feel like so many people have been tricked into all of this vaccine refusal.

This is what makes it so upsetting to me. People are dying because they have been tricked, and most don't realize it until it's too late (though many realize it in time at least to have the panicked realization that they made the wrong decision). So awful, so wrong and so unnecessary.

1 minute ago, Bootsie said:

I would not consider someone living at home with two parents and a grandparent who has a the grandparent died as "orphaned"  The headlines are referring to that situation as "orphaned" I think that is an exageration and sensationalism.  

The above poster used the word "orphaned" but most of the headlines I saw referred to "lost a primary caregiver." Certainly, some media outlets do write terrible and inaccurate headlines. So lets say 140,000 US children have lost a primary caregiver to covid. That requires no sensationalism to be absolutely tragic.

[Bootsie]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

This is what makes it so upsetting to me. People are dying because they have been tricked, and most don't realize it until it's too late (though many realize it in time at least to have the panicked realization that they made the wrong decision). So awful, so wrong and so unnecessary.

The above poster used the word "orphaned" but most of the headlines I saw referred to "lost a primary caregiver." Certainly, some media outlets do write terrible and inaccurate headlines. So lets say 140,000 US children have lost a primary caregiver to covid. That requires no sensationalism to be absolutely tragic.

This is the CDC press release headline The Hidden U.S. COVID-19 Pandemic: Orphaned Children – More than 140,000 U.S. Children Lost a Primary or Secondary Caregiver Due to the COVID-19 Pandemic | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC

 

[Harriet Vane]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

First of all, the OP said that this woman is in the hospital.

I'm sorry, but this is an inappropriate response to the illness or death of an elderly person. Even when a person is elderly,  their life has value and we all need to realize that they might have made different decisions had they not received wrong information about the disease and/or the vaccine. I agree that competent adults can make their own decisions about medical intervention, but I also think that they deserve to receive accurate information so that they can evaluate it clearly. The age of the people becoming ill and dying doesn't absolve people from the responsibility of spreading lies.

 

2 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

For the 80 year old aunt, I think we all need to accept that at some point death isn't a big scary boogie man.  She may have welcomed it, especially if her spouse was already passed.  At 80, it may have felt like the next step.  That sounds bad to many of us who are younger and looking forward to many more years, but I think we need to allow them to make their own choice about medical intervention.   

My heart breaks for all the kids who have lost a parent needlessly.  

My great-grandmother lived into her late 90s. She was very dear to me. She was active in her parish and gardened constantly. She swept the alley daily, bless her. She baked us zillions and zillions of kolacky at the holidays. And she told us all constantly how much she loved us. 
 

My husband’s grandmother lived past a hundred years old. She kept gardening well into her nineties even with significant vision loss. She had a riot at her hundredth birthday party—we were there to celebrate with her. The whole church and half the town and relatives from multiple states all went to her party. We have pictures of her that same year dressed up for a Halloween party with her friends. 

Both treasured. Both contributors to life. Both tremendously affirming and encouraging women who are missed.

Some die at 80 and some may yet live another decade or two. It is tragic—tragic!!—to lose the ones we love at any age.

[KSera]

10 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

This is the CDC press release headline The Hidden U.S. COVID-19 Pandemic: Orphaned Children – More than 140,000 U.S. Children Lost a Primary or Secondary Caregiver Due to the COVID-19 Pandemic | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC

 

Yeah, I think we all agree that whoever has been in charge of CDC messaging these last couple years has done a lousy job! It sounds like technically that meets the definition, but that's besides the point. I don't know why someone would go after that technicality in this instance to make it sound like this isn't really that bad. This is a horrible life changing tragedy for more than 100,000 US children, and it didn't have to happen to all of them. That's the point.

[Bootsie]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

Yeah, I think we all agree that whoever has been in charge of CDC messaging these last couple years has done a lousy job! It sounds like technically that meets the definition, but that's besides the point. I don't know why someone would go after that technicality in this instance to make it sound like this isn't really that bad. This is a horrible life changing tragedy for more than 100,000 US children, and it didn't have to happen to all of them. That's the point.

I said that it was tragic.  I think the reporting and headline is misleading and senastionalism.  I am concerned that when people see these types of headlines and then look at the information and realize that the headline is misleading that they begin to distrust what they hear from the CDC.  It becomes easy for them to dismiss the data as another "overblown" statement. 

[TechWife]

20 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

This is the CDC press release headline The Hidden U.S. COVID-19 Pandemic: Orphaned Children – More than 140,000 U.S. Children Lost a Primary or Secondary Caregiver Due to the COVID-19 Pandemic | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC

 

Which doesn’t refer to orphans. 

The purpose of their study was to attempt to determine the impact that losing a caregiver from COVID has on a child. If we were a nation of planners and of people who value all human life, we could take the information learned and use it to determine the scope of services  that might be needed over time to aid, not only in basis physical & social needs, it also in organizing trauma support through trauma informed counselors who are experienced working with children. What do we think we might need in the way of trained professionals, are we recruiting and educating these people now, are budgets being planned in various organizations to pay for training or retraining someone so they can be a trauma informed source - are offices, meeting rooms, family rooms being designed to accommodate trauma counseling while supporting best practices. Is there something that needs to change about the school day (can I get a vote for afternoon rest/nap times for teens? ) that will help students cope. We should be working on this problem now. Build the buildings, send people to school, providing $$ to paint,  for their school, pay the staff for planning , hire play therapists, get it moving.

29 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I would not consider someone living at home with two parents and a grandparent who has a the grandparent died as "orphaned"  The headlines are referring to that situation as "orphaned" I think that is an exageration and sensationalism.  

What headline? I didn’t see one like that IIRC. 

[Bootsie]

Just now, TechWife said:

Which doesn’t refer to orphans. 

The purpose of their study was to attempt to determine the impact that losing a caregiver from COVID has on a child. If we were a nation of planners and of people who value all human life, we could take the information learned and use it to determine the scope of services  that might be needed over time to aid, not only in basis physical & social needs, it also in organizing trauma support through trauma informed counselors who are experienced working with children. What do we think we might need in the way of trained professionals, are we recruiting and educating these people now, are budgets being planned in various organizations to pay for training or retraining someone so they can be a trauma informed source - are offices, meeting rooms, family rooms being designed to accommodate trauma counseling while supporting best practices. Is there something that needs to change about the school day (can I get a vote for afternoon rest/nap times for teens? ) that will help students cope. We should be working on this problem now. Build the buildings, send people to school, providing $$ to paint,  for their school, pay the staff for planning , hire play therapists, get it moving.

What headline? I didn’t see one like that IIRC. 

I am not sure what you say doesn't refer to orphans The Hidden U.S. COVID-19 Pandemic: Orphaned Children – More than 140,000 U.S. Children Lost a Primary or Secondary Caregiver Due to the COVID-19 Pandemic | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC  I had the headline copied directly in my post, are you not seeing it?  

The term "orphaned children" is in this headline.  Do you not consider that referring to orphans.

I also do not see that the purpose of the study had anything to do with the attempt to determine the impact of losing a caregiver.  It was an attempt to MEASURE how many people this happened to.  

[KSera]

Is bad headline writing really the thing to be upset about in all this? 🤨

[wathe]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

…and needlessly suffering and causing others to suffer. I realize there *are* people who have legitimate reasons to refuse the vaccine, but I keep hearing about people refusing it *not* for legitimate reasons and paying the price, or others around them paying the price.

I just learned that dh’s aunt is in the hospital with COVID; she refused to be vaxxed and is 80+ years old. My niece, her husband, and baby all got COVID; husband is military and do is vaxxed - he had no symptoms. But niece was sick for days and the baby had a fever and malaise for three days. 😞 

We also just got a call at the firm from an older lady seeking custody of her 10 to grandkid because the child’s mom (her daughter) just died of COVID in September. She was not vaccinated, despite grandma urging her many times to “take COVID seriously” because she had pre-existing conditions that increased her risk. So this poor little kid lost his mom, possibly/probably needlessly. 
 

Im just really feeling upset about this today. 

I am too.  First-hand witness of so many through the hospital.  It's wearing me down.

[Bootsie]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

Is bad headline writing really the thing to be upset about in all this? 🤨

I am upset about it because it gives fuel to anit-vaxers who say you can't trust the CDC.  We would be upset if the anti-vaxers had bad headline writing that mislead people to think something different than what had actually occurred with COVID.  A number of intelligent people here assume that the number meant that many children had lost two parents to COVID.   

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, EmilyGF said:

It drives me bonkers, too, and I try to encourage my vaccine-skeptical friends and family whenever possible. I try, also, to remember those who have changed their opinions instead of focusing on the ones who haven't.

In my personal experience, those most ardently against the vaccine are people who are doctor-skeptical due to chronic health problems (like Lyme, CFS, etc) that have been dismissed or minimized by medical personnel. They have grown to distrust the medical establishment, find their own treatments, etc.  

b

My experience is it is also someone who is good friend's with someone who doesn't trust doctors because of bad experiences.  

some people . . . . I'm not saying it, I'm not saying it . . . 

 

[gardenmom5]

2 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am upset about it because it gives fuel to anit-vaxers who say you can't trust the CDC.  We would be upset if the anti-vaxers had bad headline writing that mislead people to think something different than what had actually occurred with COVID.  A number of intelligent people here assume that the number meant that many children had lost two parents to COVID.   

The general definition has been the loss of both parents/primary caregivers.  secondary caregiver deaths do not make a child an orphan and it is very misleading.

I grew up with one parent - the other parent was deceased.  I never thought of myself as an orphan - I had a living parent.

[KSera]

5 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

I am upset about it because it gives fuel to anit-vaxers who say you can't trust the CDC.  We would be upset if the anti-vaxers had bad headline writing that mislead people to think something different than what had actually occurred with COVID.  A number of intelligent people here assume that the number meant that many children had lost two parents to COVID.   

I get that, and it frustrates me, I guess I’m just also frustrated because this is a pattern that’s also part of the problem of focusing on some side nitpicking thing rather than on the real problems. I want them to do better, but you know as well as I do that the problems are WAY bigger and beyond the CDC and their bad public messaging. The CDC could be doing a perfect job and it wouldn’t even make a dent in overcoming all the Facebook and YouTube propaganda people are eating up. 

[Evelyn2108]

  There are a large group of people who are hesitant to take mRNA because they dislike government overreach and think pharmaceutical companies are corrupt.  
 

of “ok folks who dislike and distrust us, we’ll coerce you by threatening your livelihood with vaccine mandates” this approach is going to have serious ramifications.  
 

COVID risk is correlated with age and comorbidities. 
mRNA risk is associated with age, gender.  
 

I look forward to when the mRNA is approved for all ages, that way people can stop whining about people who make different medical choices then them.  Children are also orphaned by drug addicts, shootings, preventable heart disease, etc...
 

Probably the biggest toll on children in this country is obesity, 14.4 million obese children in this country.  Think of all the health effects, totally preventable.  Did you know that children gained an average of 5 pounds during lockdown? With younger kids being most affected.  No one cares.
 

The narrow minded focus on COVID wears me down.  

Edited October 12, 2021 by desertflower
Polotical

[TravelingChris]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

A couple of months ago a customer told us ‘they will have to chase me through the woods and catch me before I get a vaccine’.  And then for weeks we have been trying to reach him…..I finally got him on the phone today. He said he had been ‘fighting’.   He has been deathly ill with Covid. He was so sick I could barely understand him…..and this was many weeks after he contracted it.

This is what I told people-  it wasn't death that I feared as much as further disability.  I have seen videos of people coming out of the hospital after COVID and so many look so very sick.

[kiwik]

5 hours ago, SarahB82 said:

Yes. It is easy to say you, “when it is my time to go, it is just my time to go”. It isn’t easy to suffocate to death separated from your loved ones. Why would anyone ever choose to do that is beyond me.

Yes.  Most people would prefer to die peacefully and painlessly surrounded by lived ones not alone in ICU on a ventilator.

[kiwik]

6 hours ago, Evelyn2108 said:There are a large group of people who are hesitant to take mRNA because they dislike government overreach and think pharmaceutical companies are corrupt.  
 

of “ok folks who dislike and distrust us, we’ll coerce you by threatening your livelihood with vaccine mandates” this approach is going to have serious ramifications.  
 

COVID risk is correlated with age and comorbidities. 
mRNA risk is associated with age, gender.  
 

I look forward to when the mRNA is approved for all ages, that way people can stop whining about people who make different medical choices then them.  Children are also orphaned by drug addicts, shootings, preventable heart disease, etc...
 

Probably the biggest toll on children in this country is obesity, 14.4 million obese children in this country.  Think of all the health effects, totally preventable.  Did you know that children gained an average of 5 pounds during lockdown? With younger kids being most affected.  No one cares.
 

The narrow minded focus on COVID wears me down.  

But people who are obese usually spend their whole life fighting it and would be overjoyed to take a vaccine that worked as well as some of the covid ones. And no one is saying people should ignore all the other problems.  We just aren't worrying so much about the floor until we fix the roof.  The floor is unsafe but fixing it before the roof is pointless.

Edited October 12, 2021 by desertflower
Political in the quotes

[Guest]

The Biden response of “ok folks who dislike and distrust us, we’ll coerce you by threatening your livelihood with vaccine mandates” this approach is going to have serious ramifications.  
 

Well, I disagree, because I have seen with my own eyes how people behave when things are not mandatory: they don’t cooperate. And if you don’t firewall this damn virus, you can’t get the upper hand. There isn’t room for libertarian dissent.  
 

If you get to, say, 50% compliance just by people who want the vaccine, you get some 25% more by making the stakes higher; there are always a group of people who don’t want to do a thing until non-compliance is going to bring too much PITA consequences. (These are made-up numbers; they are not real statistics.) 

I live with someone who is like this. Since Feb 2020, I have seen how it plays out when measures are requested vs required. 

Edited October 12, 2021 by Quill
Sorry for bad formatting; mobile issues

[Guest]

BTW, to the thread in general, I messaged dh’s cousin, to tell her I am sorry to hear about Auntie. She replied that nobody could help Auntie because “we are all sick too.” She said she and two other cousins all have Covid and the two others have been sick for two weeks. She said, “I hope it ends soon.” 
 

It’s needless suffering, y’all. 

[TechWife]

6 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I am not sure what you say doesn't refer to orphans The Hidden U.S. COVID-19 Pandemic: Orphaned Children – More than 140,000 U.S. Children Lost a Primary or Secondary Caregiver Due to the COVID-19 Pandemic | CDC Online Newsroom | CDC  I had the headline copied directly in my post, are you not seeing it?  

The term "orphaned children" is in this headline.  Do you not consider that referring to orphans.

I also do not see that the purpose of the study had anything to do with the attempt to determine the impact of losing a caregiver.  It was an attempt to MEASURE how many people this happened to.  

Actually, I looked right over that! I apologize. My brain concentrated on what came after the dash. To me, the dash separates two different thoughts. To others, maybe not. 

A direct quote: 

 “We often think of the impact of COVID-19 in terms of the number of lives claimed by the disease, but as this study shows, it is critical to also address the broader impact – both in terms of those who have died, and those who have been left behind,” said study co-author Charles A. Nelson III, PhD.external icon who studies the effects of adversity on brain and behavioral development at Boston Children’s Hospital. “We must ensure children who have lost a parent or caregiver have access to the support services they need, and that this additional impact of the COVID-19 pandemic is comprehensively addressed in both our rapid response and our overall public health response.”

[TechWife]

6 hours ago, KSera said:

Is bad headline writing really the thing to be upset about in all this? 🤨

You are right. I got off track following a red herring. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

8 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

It drives me bonkers, too, and I try to encourage my vaccine-skeptical friends and family whenever possible. I try, also, to remember those who have changed their opinions instead of focusing on the ones who haven't.

In my personal experience, those most ardently against the vaccine are people who are doctor-skeptical due to chronic health problems (like Lyme, CFS, etc) that have been dismissed or minimized by medical personnel. They have grown to distrust the medical establishment, find their own treatments, etc. They believe that vaccine problems will also be minimized by the medical establishment, like their own symptoms have been, so they won't use the vaccine. Sigh. Of course this isn't everyone, just those closest to me.

The 140,000 number refers to children who have lost a primary or secondary caregiver in the United States, whether said caregiver was related to them or not. This is tragic, but it isn't the number of children orphaned (which to me implies having two parents die).

This is my mom. She’s an RN, but struggled with her health for over 20 years and was seriously minimized. It turns out she’s got celiac disease so bad that if she touches wheat she breaks out, but for years it was “all in her head” or IBS or anxiety.  Now she is extremely doctor skeptical and refuses the vaccine. She isn’t anti vaxx; she strongly encouraged both me and my grandmother to get it.  But she doesn’t trust the medical establishment anymore, especially now that she’s done everything she’s been told to by them to get my grandmother home health or long term skilled nursing and still can’t.

The doctor skeptical population is one that I think could be convinced to get vaccinated; but there needs to be different messaging than what we’ve got.

[TechWife]

5 hours ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Biden is taking the wrong approach.  There are a large group of people who are hesitant to take mRNA because they dislike government overreach and think pharmaceutical companies are corrupt.  
 

The Biden response of “ok folks who dislike and distrust us, we’ll coerce you by threatening your livelihood with vaccine mandates” this approach is going to have serious ramifications.  

You’re neglecting the fact that this isn’t the initial approach. We’ve been trying to get people to vaccinate for nearly a year now. There are a considerable number of people who are choosing not to vaccinate. That is why we need a mandate. The very people who dislike government overreach could have prevented a mandate if they had chosen to get a vaccine. The fact that people aren’t doing something simply because “the government” wants them to do it is immature, irrational, selfish and short-sighted.

A significant number of people are acting like children having a temper tantrum- throwing themselves on the floor, kicking their heels with tears running down their face screaming “you can’t make me.” In our house, people are free to have temper tantrums but they are not free to disrupt the household. Those children get picked up and taken to their rooms where they can wail all they want until they calm down, realize they need to follow the rules and are ready to rejoin the rest of the family.

A vaccine mandate is the equivalent of being taken or sent to your room until you calm down, follow the rules and are ready to rejoin the community. A vaccine mandate isn’t coercion - it is part of being in a community. If you don’t want to be in the community, that’s fine, but you can’t ruin it for the rest of us, so you need to go to your room. 

The entire “threatening livelihood “ argument doesn’t hold water because in the US, time and time again, we have allowed corporations to call the shots and have grumbled at any regulations that improve the lives of workers when they cost corporations money . Now here’s a regulation that will both improve the lives or workers and save corporations money by stabilizing the workforce, and it isn’t good enough. 

[Faith-manor]

15 minutes ago, TechWife said:

You’re neglecting the fact that this isn’t the initial approach. We’ve been trying to get people to vaccinate for nearly a year now. There are a considerable number of people who are choosing not to vaccinate. That is why we need a mandate. The very people who dislike government overreach could have prevented a mandate if they had chosen to get a vaccine. The fact that people aren’t doing something simply because “the government” wants them to do it is immature, irrational, selfish and short-sighted.

A significant number of people are acting like children having a temper tantrum- throwing themselves on the floor, kicking their heels with tears running down their face screaming “you can’t make me.” In our house, people are free to have temper tantrums but they are not free to disrupt the household. Those children get picked up and taken to their rooms where they can wail all they want until they calm down, realize they need to follow the rules and are ready to rejoin the rest of the family.

A vaccine mandate is the equivalent of being taken or sent to your room until you calm down, follow the rules and are ready to rejoin the community. A vaccine mandate isn’t coercion - it is part of being in a community. If you don’t want to be in the community, that’s fine, but you can’t ruin it for the rest of us, so you need to go to your room. 

The entire “threatening livelihood “ argument doesn’t hold water because in the US, time and time again, we have allowed corporations to call the shots and have grumbled at any regulations that improve the lives of workers when they cost corporations money . Now here’s a regulation that will both improve the lives or workers and save corporations money by stabilizing the workforce, and it isn’t good enough. 

Nailed it!!! 👏👏👏

[TechWife]

11 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Nailed it!!! 👏👏👏

I’ve been holding that in for a while. 

[Dmmetler]

5 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

This is what I told people-  it wasn't death that I feared as much as further disability.  I have seen videos of people coming out of the hospital after COVID and so many look so very sick.

I have a piano student who had a stroke due to COVID in Jan. He’s now on disability and trying to rebuild his life. He used to play beautifully, and now cannot read music at all. After trying materials, we picked a book I normally use for preschoolers because it is moving at a pace that he can handle and builds skills slowly. His two college age sons both lost a year of school because they didn’t return last Spring in order to stay home with him, and he is hoping that he can show them that he’s able to survive on his own so they’ll go back to their lives. 
 

He’s 49 years old.
 

It is absolutely tragic. It is even more so that there are people who are now risking similar outcomes when there’s a vaccine available. 

[Faith-manor]

3 minutes ago, Dmmetler said:

I have a piano student who had a stroke due to COVID in Jan. He’s now on disability and trying to rebuild his life. He used to play beautifully, and now cannot read music at all. After trying materials, we picked a book I normally use for preschoolers because it is moving at a pace that he can handle and builds skills slowly. His two college age sons both lost a year of school because they didn’t return last Spring in order to stay home with him, and he is hoping that he can show them that he’s able to survive on his own so they’ll go back to their lives. 
 

He’s 49 years old.
 

It is absolutely tragic. It is even more so that there are people who are now risking similar outcomes when there’s a vaccine available. 

I think that if I got covid, and lost my abilities at the piano, it would be beyond devastating! Music has defined me for the vast majority of my life, and is my passion, my muse. 

 

[elegantlion]

11 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

For the 80 year old aunt, I think we all need to accept that at some point death isn't a big scary boogie man.  She may have welcomed it, especially if her spouse was already passed.  At 80, it may have felt like the next step.  That sounds bad to many of us who are younger and looking forward to many more years, but I think we need to allow them to make their own choice about medical intervention.   

My heart breaks for all the kids who have lost a parent needlessly.  

 

10 hours ago, TechWife said:

First of all, the OP said that this woman is in the hospital.

I'm sorry, but this is an inappropriate response to the illness or death of an elderly person. Even when a person is elderly,  their life has value and we all need to realize that they might have made different decisions had they not received wrong information about the disease and/or the vaccine. I agree that competent adults can make their own decisions about medical intervention, but I also think that they deserve to receive accurate information so that they can evaluate it clearly. The age of the people becoming ill and dying doesn't absolve people from the responsibility of spreading lies.

This ^^^^ My mom is 85, active - like painting, pulling carpet, and mowing the lawn active - healthy and vibrant. Both of her parents lived until they were 94. The older I get the more I realize the variety of life left in those in their 70s and 80s. We should not be so quick to write off the value and importance of the elderly. 

[Lecka]

I would agree with that sentiment if someone were declining treatment for pneumonia or choosing palliative care for cancer.  I don’t think that’s equivalent to not taking a vaccine.  

[MercyA]

Yes. We have a 48% vaccination rate here and more and more people keep ending up in the hospital. 

This just happened in my small town. [Very young] mom to [multiple] foster kids, parenting them for [years], now dead from COVID. 

[link removed]

We prayed for the family in church but no one mentioned *what* she died from. I see this over and over.

At least two other COVID deaths in our town this past week.

ETA: And people in my circles keeping saying things like, "Back in the pandemic time.." We ARE STILL IN A PANDEMIC. You didn't act like it then, wake up and act like it now. 🤯

Edited October 17, 2021 by MercyA

[heartlikealion]

That’s awful 😞 

my dad won’t vaxx and got Covid a month or so ago. He sounds ok now but was dealing with brain fog and said he wasn’t 100%. 

Many people where I live don’t wear masks anymore though I suppose that’s a whole different thread. 

[City Mouse]

On Friday I attended the funeral of one of my DH’s friends and co-worker. He tested positive for Covid on a Monday and was found dead the following Saturday by his adult daughter who lived in the same home. He was 53 yrs old. The only good thing I can think of is that all his kids are adults. His death is considered work related so there will be benefits coming to his kids, but I am sure they would much rather have him alive.