I feel so frustrated about people refusing vaccination…

[TCB]

What upsets me most is the information they are using to inform their decision not to get vaccinated. My ex pastor’s wife is stridently anti Covid vax on social media. I have looked at every single piece of information she has posted and linked to and it is just downright bad and untrue information. Most of the time the links quoted in the articles don’t say what the article says they do. If you even were to click on the linked information and even thought about it at all you would come away with something very different than the article headline. I can only assume that she doesn’t bother examining any of the so called evidence for the claims. Every source she posts is politically motivated. Who uses politics to inform their health decisions? I just don’t understand that.

[HS Mom in NC]

11 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

For the 80 year old aunt, I think we all need to accept that at some point death isn't a big scary boogie man.  She may have welcomed it, especially if her spouse was already passed.  At 80, it may have felt like the next step.  That sounds bad to many of us who are younger and looking forward to many more years, but I think we need to allow them to make their own choice about medical intervention.   

My heart breaks for all the kids who have lost a parent needlessly.  

I agree that intervention all the time at late stages doesn't make sense, but this is a terrible way to die.  There are sooooooooooooooo many better ends to life.  My grandparents died in hospice care surrounded by family and kept comfortable all the way to the end. 

My neighbor is an ER nurse trained in infectious disease who woks at a major medical center with COVID patients.  This is not how our elderly should be dying.  It's horrific and sad to die this way.  We wouldn't say of someone who died in a fire, "Well, we all have to die sometime." No one should die that way.

[Bootsie]

1 hour ago, TechWife said:

You’re neglecting the fact that this isn’t the initial approach. We’ve been trying to get people to vaccinate for nearly a year now. There are a considerable number of people who are choosing not to vaccinate. That is why we need a mandate. The very people who dislike government overreach could have prevented a mandate if they had chosen to get a vaccine. The fact that people aren’t doing something simply because “the government” wants them to do it is immature, irrational, selfish and short-sighted.

A significant number of people are acting like children having a temper tantrum- throwing themselves on the floor, kicking their heels with tears running down their face screaming “you can’t make me.” In our house, people are free to have temper tantrums but they are not free to disrupt the household. Those children get picked up and taken to their rooms where they can wail all they want until they calm down, realize they need to follow the rules and are ready to rejoin the rest of the family.

A vaccine mandate is the equivalent of being taken or sent to your room until you calm down, follow the rules and are ready to rejoin the community. A vaccine mandate isn’t coercion - it is part of being in a community. If you don’t want to be in the community, that’s fine, but you can’t ruin it for the rest of us, so you need to go to your room. 

The entire “threatening livelihood “ argument doesn’t hold water because in the US, time and time again, we have allowed corporations to call the shots and have grumbled at any regulations that improve the lives of workers when they cost corporations money . Now here’s a regulation that will both improve the lives or workers and save corporations money by stabilizing the workforce, and it isn’t good enough. 

I think this is the type of comment, attitude, and thinking that some of those who are choosing not to vaccinate are reacting to.  (I have had in depth conversations with people I know who are not vaccinated and there are a wide set of reasons).  Saying things like we've been trying to get people to vaccinate for almost a year seems like exageration when 7 months ago I know it was terribly difficult to get an appointment for a vaccine where I was.  It has been less than 6 months in my area since there were more appointments than people choosing to vaccinate.

While grown adults are choosing not to vaccinate, they are compared to children having a temper tantrum. who need to calm down  Those who want them to vaccinate are the discplining parent.  Saying that "if you had done what I think you should do, then I wouldn't make you do it" is a very odd way, in m opinion, to treat adults.  Personally I don't want a government that is doing the equivalent of sending adults to their room until they are ready to calm down and follow the rules.

I am vaccinated and want others to vaccinate.  At the same time, I want a government that treats adult citizens as adult citizens the government serves, not as children who are having a temper tantrum that the govenrment needs to discipline.  

[RootAnn]

9 hours ago, TechWife said:

of people who value all human life,

We know the US isn't a people who value all human life.

In 2020, 375,000 deaths attributed to Covid. Same year, an estimated 600,000 abortions. All life, young & old, should be valued.

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Dmmetler said:

I have a piano student who had a stroke due to COVID in Jan. He’s now on disability and trying to rebuild his life. He used to play beautifully, and now cannot read music at all. After trying materials, we picked a book I normally use for preschoolers because it is moving at a pace that he can handle and builds skills slowly. His two college age sons both lost a year of school because they didn’t return last Spring in order to stay home with him, and he is hoping that he can show them that he’s able to survive on his own so they’ll go back to their lives. 
 

He’s 49 years old.
 

It is absolutely tragic. It is even more so that there are people who are now risking similar outcomes when there’s a vaccine available. 

In July, I think, I saw this video of a former Medevac helicopter pilot who got his first Moderna shot in Jan but got COVID, a few days later.  He believes he was already infected.  This man who was in his later 40s looked like he was in his mid 60s or older.  He couldn't walk, he was so thin,  and I have no idea if he will ever be able to be a pilot again.  He was urging people to get the vaccine to not turn out like him.

[WildflowerMom]

4 hours ago, Quill said:

The Biden response of “ok folks who dislike and distrust us, we’ll coerce you by threatening your livelihood with vaccine mandates” this approach is going to have serious ramifications.  
 

Well, I disagree, because I have seen with my own eyes how people behave when things are not mandatory: they don’t cooperate. And if you don’t firewall this damn virus, you can’t get the upper hand. There isn’t room for libertarian dissent.  
 

If you get to, say, 50% compliance just by people who want the vaccine, you get some 25% more by making the stakes higher; there are always a group of people who don’t want to do a thing until non-compliance is going to bring too much PITA consequences. (These are made-up numbers; they are not real statistics.) 

I live with someone who is like this. Since Feb 2020, I have seen how it plays out when measures are requested vs required. 

Quill, I think you and I are in the same boat.   It is so frustrating, isn't it?  For a while, it was all I could think about and my stress level was crazy.   
Now, I'm just resigned to the fact that he's going to do whatever the hell he wants to do.   He can't make me do anything (and has never tried, thankfully) and I can't make him do anything (I did try, wrt to the vax).  Idk what else to do.   I can stress over it or just hope he doesn't get it and die.   He has good life insurance, I'll be ok.  🤷🏻‍♀️  I guess I'm just done. So done.   At this point, right this second (though it could change easily), I mostly blame a certain pol party.   Although he does lean moderate, he still keeps up with everything from a certain 'side'.   I really just don't know what to do at this point, but throw my hands up.    At least I was able to talk ds20 into getting the vax.   That's going to have to sustain me, I guess. 

[Faith-manor]

2 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Quill, I think you and I are in the same boat.   It is so frustrating, isn't it?  For a while, it was all I could think about and my stress level was crazy.   
Now, I'm just resigned to the fact that he's going to do whatever the hell he wants to do.   He can't make me do anything (and has never tried, thankfully) and I can't make him do anything (I did try, wrt to the vax).  Idk what else to do.   I can stress over it or just hope he doesn't get it and die.   He has good life insurance, I'll be ok.  🤷🏻‍♀️  I guess I'm just done. So done.   At this point, right this second (though it could change easily), I mostly blame a certain pol party.   Although he does lean moderate, he still keeps up with everything from a certain 'side'.   I really just don't know what to do at this point, but throw my hands up.    At least I was able to talk ds20 into getting the vax.   That's going to have to sustain me, I guess. 

I am so sorry Wildflower! So so sorry. 

[TechWife]

24 minutes ago, Bootsie said:

While grown adults are choosing not to vaccinate, they are compared to children having a temper tantrum. who need to calm down  Those who want them to vaccinate are the discplining parent.  Saying that "if you had done what I think you should do, then I wouldn't make you do it" is a very odd way, in m opinion, to treat adults.  Personally I don't want a government that is doing the equivalent of sending adults to their room until they are ready to calm down and follow the rules.

 

Actions have consequences. People who think and act selfishly like children do are thought of as immature and treated by others as if they are immature. This is true across the board - personal life, public life, work life, spiritual life. I've seen grown ups have adult temper tantrums at work - no they didn't scream, throw themselves on the floor, etc. - but they let people know where they stood in very immature ways. They have all gotten fired for misconduct. You simply don't have a temper tantrum at work, in public, at church or anywhere else and not have a very real consequence - loss of a job, loss of friendships, loss of respect, loss of dignity. Those who are refusing to vaccinate only because the government wants them to are losing some freedom, maybe a job, maybe friendships, definitely respect (at least my respect, anyway).

If you don't the government to do the equivalent of sending adults to their room until they are ready to calm down and follow the rules, I assume that you are generally against the criminal justice system and the concept of justice overall? Because if ever there were an example of government sending someone to their room, it's the prison system.

Living in a community means following an agreed upon set of rules. Our elections are the way that we decide who is setting the rules for us. Sometimes we like the rules, sometimes we don't.  It's the price we pay for living in a community.  People who don't want to follow the rules shouldn't expect to enter and stay in the community unchallenged. This is community, this is culture. If you want to fight to change the rules, go through the appropriate channels - protest for the purpose of affecting the change you want to see  -  but realize that changing a culture is a long haul operation and think through the cost of promoting the "everyone decided for themselves" way of life because it can truly lead to things that will change the very nature of the country and make vaccine discussions completely irrelevant.

There isn't a benefit to me, to you or to our community here to us continuing this back and forth conversation, so I am likely bowing out at this point. That, plus I have to go to work soon. Thankfully, all employees there are required by law to vaccinate against a multitude of illnesses, including covid.

 

Edited October 12, 2021 by TechWife

[PeterPan]

Just now, WildflowerMom said:

I mostly blame a certain pol party.

People keep saying this, and as a person of that political persuasion I don't know what they're listening to. I had a friend in her 80s who was very into politics who just passed from covid. I know she was being informed and persuaded by something, but i'm not sure what. I must just run in the wrong circles, because I actually look at data, lol. I mean WHAT  or WHO are they listening to??? Some weirdos took over Rush Limbaugh's show and they say they most bizarre things. They're so incomprehensible I just shut them off. So who is it??

And what is sad to me is that in fact it *was* a kind of rebellion, not some kind of data driven, calm rational thing. And it left her not living out her political values at the end. To me, being a fiscal conservative who takes personal responsibility means you TAKE the vaccine so you don't COST the gov't unnecessarily. Instead, she refused a cheap shot that would have been a nothing burger for her and spent weeks in ICU costing the medicare system tons. Makes zero sense to me. 

I think my friend wanted to die, had established DNRs, etc., and was ready to die. As soon as she was told she wouldn't recover, she saw her kids one last time and took off her mask when they left. So I respect that part immensely. But I don't think doing zero to prevent it and then accepting $$$$$$ care (that wasn't going to work at her age and with her health issues) was sensible. So we're compassionate as a society and we cover butts for people, but it makes no sense to me. I think maybe in the moment it turns out people haven't thought it through so much.

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, TechWife said:

People who think and act selfishly like children do are thought of as immature and treated by others as if they are immature.

And that's the problem, that I think with some hindsight even people of their party will look back and say no that wasn't our politics, that was just being a stick in the mud, a donkey, unwilling to learn, willing to be led by idiots. 

There's some dude in a gubenatorial race right now who's sick with covid and proclaiming he would never ever be vax. Blows my mind because he probably had anthrax and more in his military service. Most people have had 40+ shots in their lifetimes? Why the big freakout over ONE MORE? That's part of why I was willing to, in spite of my bent, because I figured if I survived this many it was probably silly to think one more was a big deal. 

There's probably some fancy psychological term for what is going on, something about reinforcement bias or something, I forget. So they WANT to hear a certain thing so they look till they find sources that say it and then say see, see... And I think they could check their hearts. I get rational reasons, medical logic. But sometimes it's really just a stubborn heart thing. 

[Guest]

54 minutes ago, City Mouse said:

On Friday I attended the funeral of one of my DH’s friends and co-worker. He tested positive for Covid on a Monday and was found dead the following Saturday by his adult daughter who lived in the same home. He was 53 yrs old. The only good thing I can think of is that all his kids are adults. His death is considered work related so there will be benefits coming to his kids, but I am sure they would much rather have him alive. 

How is his death considered work-related? 

[Faith-manor]

7 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

And that's the problem, that I think with some hindsight even people of their party will look back and say no that wasn't our politics, that was just being a stick in the mud, a donkey, unwilling to learn, willing to be led by idiots. 

There's some dude in a gubenatorial race right now who's sick with covid and proclaiming he would never ever be vax. Blows my mind because he probably had anthrax and more in his military service. Most people have had 40+ shots in their lifetimes? Why the big freakout over ONE MORE? That's part of why I was willing to, in spite of my bent, because I figured if I survived this many it was probably silly to think one more was a big deal. 

There's probably some fancy psychological term for what is going on, something about reinforcement bias or something, I forget. So they WANT to hear a certain thing so they look till they find sources that say it and then say see, see... And I think they could check their hearts. I get rational reasons, medical logic. But sometimes it's really just a stubborn heart thing. 

The military thing just blows my mind. A local marine veteran is a very vocal, anti-vax person a the school. This same person has said that he had typhoid vaccine, yellow fever, anthrax, and malaria pills due to where he spent some of his career. 🤔 😲 He doesn't speak out against any of those.

As someone who had to take typhoid vaccine back in the mid-80's because of a region I was traveling to, I can say without hesitation that my Moderna vaccine, for side effects, was absolute CAKE WALK compared to Typhus vax!

The cognitive dissonance is something I can't quite wrap my brain around.

[kbutton]

10 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

In my personal experience, those most ardently against the vaccine are people who are doctor-skeptical due to chronic health problems (like Lyme, CFS, etc) that have been dismissed or minimized by medical personnel. They have grown to distrust the medical establishment, find their own treatments, etc. They believe that vaccine problems will also be minimized by the medical establishment, like their own symptoms have been, so they won't use the vaccine. Sigh. Of course this isn't everyone, just those closest to me.

I am doctor skeptical--as in have to work hard to not have a panic attack to go to any new clinician at all even if they've been well-vetted. I recently met a physician who is skeptical and takes steps to help that change. I am in the demographic that this physician feels gets downplayed and ignored. It's not an excuse to be a vaccine skeptic. 

I do know someone who has had bad experiences that is promoting lies and conspiracies, but this person was already a conspiracy theorist. 

The way to fix the system is to advocate for better care wherever you can. Many people with under-recognized or under-resourced diseases start foundations and patient support groups that lead to research, better care, better quality of life, and in some cases, life-saving treatments. Actually, quite a few of these groups are started by physicians who also see the problem and set out to fix it out of compassion and concern for their own patients--they become the trusted doctor, word gets around that they listen, and then they suddenly have a patient population right in front of their eyes that is a herd of zebras, and they can start gathering data, etc.

You use the system to fight the system. You realize that your bad experience might be a bad apple HCW, or it might be a rare disease that needs more funds, or that it's a regional problem with local medical culture, and you fix those things. You don't become a conspiracy theorist.

I have seen a big shift locally in the last few years--doctors seem much more open while also being more up-to-date. I think we need more of a change in the training culture, but I think it's happening to some extent on its own (I think it's possible that more people are going into healthcare expressly because they know of people who have not been served). I think more healthcare workers need to be exposed to medical zebras and the organizations that advocate for them. 

2 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

This is my mom. She’s an RN, but struggled with her health for over 20 years and was seriously minimized. It turns out she’s got celiac disease so bad that if she touches wheat she breaks out, but for years it was “all in her head” or IBS or anxiety.  Now she is extremely doctor skeptical and refuses the vaccine. She isn’t anti vaxx; she strongly encouraged both me and my grandmother to get it.  But she doesn’t trust the medical establishment anymore, especially now that she’s done everything she’s been told to by them to get my grandmother home health or long term skilled nursing and still can’t.

The doctor skeptical population is one that I think could be convinced to get vaccinated; but there needs to be different messaging than what we’ve got.

Yes, people can have bad experiences and still encourage people they love to make good decisions.

On the bolded, what messaging do you think has been poor about this specific to the skeptical? I am curious what you think would reach them? Sincere questions even though they sound a bit bitey...I can't think how to soften the tone and not be long-winded. :-) I also have little faith left in the disinformation crowd that they would've gone a different way if they had the chance. Most of that crowd that I know personally was literally out there crafting the narrative before there was a narrative. 

[Sneezyone]

10 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

I think we cross-posted. Using the term "orphaned" was misleading, IMO. 140,000 caregivers dying should be recognized as important in and of its own right. I thought this statistic meant that 280,000 parents of young children died, which didn't make any sense. That's why I went to find the CDC study. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p1007-covid-19-orphaned-children.html

This is my Dad. God love ‘im, he has many, many reasons to be skeptical of the VA and the advice they give. They nearly killed him more than once. On this one tho, the advice he’s gotten is 179% correct. Which reminds me, I need to call him…again. All of my sibs are vaxxed and support his harassment.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[kbutton]

16 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

There's probably some fancy psychological term for what is going on, something about reinforcement bias or something, I forget. So they WANT to hear a certain thing so they look till they find sources that say it and then say see, see... And I think they could check their hearts. I get rational reasons, medical logic. But sometimes it's really just a stubborn heart thing. 

There is a lot of doubt-sowing and insinuation that passes for information. It's a constant undermining of good information by linking it to resistance, freedoms, skepticism, and the idea that doctors won't give you appropriate treatment. Even politicians who've had their shots undermine the efficacy of their own shots and bow at the sacred idol of sowing doubt as a loyalty test. It's craziness. 

I see even normally rational people who don't understand how the pandemic became a political thing sometimes spout some of those doubtful, undermining statements that suggest that doctors are holding out on people by not allowing them to have certain meds. These are people who are vaccinated and have been pretty careful, so they clearly are filtering out some of the BS. But they are hearing this from news sources and/or friends on the right. 

[Indigo Blue]

43 minutes ago, WildflowerMom said:

Quill, I think you and I are in the same boat.   It is so frustrating, isn't it?  For a while, it was all I could think about and my stress level was crazy.   
Now, I'm just resigned to the fact that he's going to do whatever the hell he wants to do.   He can't make me do anything (and has never tried, thankfully) and I can't make him do anything (I did try, wrt to the vax).  Idk what else to do.   I can stress over it or just hope he doesn't get it and die.   He has good life insurance, I'll be ok.  🤷🏻‍♀️  I guess I'm just done. So done.   At this point, right this second (though it could change easily), I mostly blame a certain pol party.   Although he does lean moderate, he still keeps up with everything from a certain 'side'.   I really just don't know what to do at this point, but throw my hands up.    At least I was able to talk ds20 into getting the vax.   That's going to have to sustain me, I guess. 

The one I know like this finally got vaxxed. Maybe there is hope. I’m sorry for you and for @Quill. I know how worrisome it is. 

[PeterPan]

11 minutes ago, kbutton said:

There is a lot of doubt-sowing and insinuation that passes for information.

That's probably it. I had a woman at the gym tell me quite emphatically that 75% of people in ICU with covid were vaccinated. Obviously that's hogwash. A percentage are, but I also think it's like 80+% are OVERWEIGHT. 

But maybe you're right that it's sort of a *vibe* being given out, rather than facts. 

[SKL]

13 hours ago, Katy said:

I read yesterday that 140,000 American children have been orphaned by Covid.   So needless.

I wonder where that number came from.  In my state, the median age of death is 79; 9% of deaths are of people aged 20-59, only some of whom would have been parents.  And the average number of kids in US families with kids is less than 2.  How can 140,000 American children have lost both parents (or their only parent) to Covid?

It is not clear how many of these deaths occurred prior to vaccine availability.

[Sneezyone]

54 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

People keep saying this, and as a person of that political persuasion I don't know what they're listening to. I had a friend in her 80s who was very into politics who just passed from covid. I know she was being informed and persuaded by something, but i'm not sure what. I must just run in the wrong circles, because I actually look at data, lol. I mean WHAT  or WHO are they listening to??? Some weirdos took over Rush Limbaugh's show and they say they most bizarre things. They're so incomprehensible I just shut them off. So who is it??

And what is sad to me is that in fact it *was* a kind of rebellion, not some kind of data driven, calm rational thing. And it left her not living out her political values at the end. To me, being a fiscal conservative who takes personal responsibility means you TAKE the vaccine so you don't COST the gov't unnecessarily. Instead, she refused a cheap shot that would have been a nothing burger for her and spent weeks in ICU costing the medicare system tons. Makes zero sense to me. 

I think my friend wanted to die, had established DNRs, etc., and was ready to die. As soon as she was told she wouldn't recover, she saw her kids one last time and took off her mask when they left. So I respect that part immensely. But I don't think doing zero to prevent it and then accepting $$$$$$ care (that wasn't going to work at her age and with her health issues) was sensible. So we're compassionate as a society and we cover butts for people, but it makes no sense to me. I think maybe in the moment it turns out people haven't thought it through so much.

It’s not just mainstream voices anymore. My dad, during his COVID isolation, discovered TikTok. After attending his church, I blame that too. They’re both a cesspool of misinformation. My dad doesn’t have a death wish and (again, to my dismay and chagrin) hasn’t even created a will. He has plans to see his latest grand baby in December. He’s still unvaxxed.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[MooCow]

Tmi and not really relevant to thread. 

🙄 Sorry for emoji left. I still can't figure out how to delete them on my stupid phone.

Edited October 12, 2021 by MooCow

[SKL]

10 hours ago, KSera said:

Yeah, I think we all agree that whoever has been in charge of CDC messaging these last couple years has done a lousy job! It sounds like technically that meets the definition, but that's besides the point. I don't know why someone would go after that technicality in this instance to make it sound like this isn't really that bad. This is a horrible life changing tragedy for more than 100,000 US children, and it didn't have to happen to all of them. That's the point.

This is yet another reason why nobody believes anything in the media.  And then we wonder why people have trouble making fact-based decisions.

[SKL]

10 hours ago, KSera said:

Is bad headline writing really the thing to be upset about in all this? 🤨

I have an old post in my facebook timeline from March 17, 2020, reading:

"Fake News caused this pandemic. Because nobody believes the media anymore, even when/if they tell the truth.

Why hasn't Fake News been shut down like most everything else?"

[WildflowerMom]

14 minutes ago, Indigo Blue said:

The one I know like this finally got vaxxed. Maybe there is hope. I’m sorry for you and for @Quill. I know how worrisome it is. 

He is planning to get it, but wants to wait longer.   And it's frustrating, too, because the unvaxxed keep getting labeled as selfish and whatnot, and that is the opposite of what my dh is.   He is selfless, has taught our kid to stand up if you see racist or demeaning behavior toward any group (and my kid does that, even standing up to his boss earlier this year), gives generously, stops to help people, etc.  it's so disheartening to see him labeled.   But I get it, because it aggravates the crap out of me, too.   I think we (me) need to understand that in some cases, people have heard certain rhetoric from certain sources (and this isn't me being partisan; I've got a major bone to pick with the other 'side' if another particular topic comes up.  Frankly, they both suck.) for 1.5 years now and it sticks, ykwim?  Dh also has had covid and in his mind, he'll be fine if he gets it again.   But the vax is the unknown.   He has a medical condition and one more bad flare up means another surgery and that means he is on a colostomy bag for the rest of his life.   That's in the back of his mind always, you know?    But it still aggravates me. 🤷🏻‍♀️I know it aggravates the crap out of quill, too, just from the things she's said here and there.   But, what do you do?  What do you do about anyone who doesn't want it because they aren't quite sure they can trust it yet?    Idk, just venting.  Certainly didn't mean to hi-jack, I just get so frustrated over this.  

[SKL]

10 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I am upset about it because it gives fuel to anit-vaxers who say you can't trust the CDC.  We would be upset if the anti-vaxers had bad headline writing that mislead people to think something different than what had actually occurred with COVID.  A number of intelligent people here assume that the number meant that many children had lost two parents to COVID.   

Or if they twisted it to say that X,XXX children have been orphaned by the vaccine, because some older family members have died shortly after receiving the vaccine.  I'm sick of all of it.

[Sneezyone]

8 minutes ago, MooCow said:

 

If my Dad wants to see my niece (11 mos) he will get the vaccine. All of his 6 kids, and his WIFE, support that decision. My step-mom is only holding out for him to respect his authority so this is about two adults over 75. I’m happy you felt free to dither but my father (on oxygen 24/7) and stepmom are in a whole other category. Mainstream news didn’t radicalize him. Facebook and TikTok did.

Edited October 12, 2021 by Sneezyone

[Spy Car]

I reported this in another thread, but earlier this term a boy with profound autism in my wife's class lost his father to Covid.

The father was young (30s) trim and seemed healthy. But Covid took his life. Now that boy and his kind older brother have no father and their lovely mother is a widow.

Not vaccinated. It is heartbreaking.

Bill 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MercyA]

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

We know the US isn't a people who value all human life.

In 2020, 375,000 deaths attributed to Covid. Same year, an estimated 600,000 abortions. All life, young & old, should be valued.

The abortion numbers are likely even worse than that, unfortunately, since California, New Hampshire, and Maryland do not report abortions to the CDC. Adding information from the Guttmacher Institute's surveys (the GI is a pro-choice organization), the total number of abortions in 2019 was about 888,000. I haven't seen 2020 numbers yet. 

I agree with your sentiments completely!

[catz]

4 minutes ago, MercyA said:

The abortion numbers are likely even worse than that, unfortunately, since California, New Hampshire, and Maryland do not report abortions to the CDC. Adding information from the Guttmacher Institute's surveys (the GI is a pro-choice organization), the total number of abortions in 2019 was about 888,000. I haven't seen 2020 numbers yet. 

I agree with your sentiments completely!

And this is irrelevant to this discussion and a straw man so please stop. 

[MercyA]

4 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

And this is irrelevant to this discussion and a straw man so please stop. 

What??? I saw a stat that I knew to be incorrect so I corrected it. That's what we do here, right? And I quoted a pro-choice source to do so. 

I said I agree with RootAnn's sentiments. I do. What is "straw man" about that?

We're talking about valuing and not valuing life. I see much evidence of lives not being valued in our culture--racially motivated police brutality, selfish wars of aggression, refusals to mask / vaccinate / distance, elder abuse, lack of a living wage, lack of healthcare for all, and, yes, abortion. I'm not saying correlation is causation--I'm agreeing with RootAnn that we have a systematic problem in our country. We don't value all lives equally. Hence the comments in this very thread victim blaming old and overweight people.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, WildflowerMom said:

Quill, I think you and I are in the same boat.   It is so frustrating, isn't it?  For a while, it was all I could think about and my stress level was crazy.   

Yup, same boat; the oars were lost upriver somewhere and I’m just along for the ride. 😏

I also can’t make that horse drink water and, since dh is a contractor, there’s no one “making” him get vaxed. 
 

The small thing that gives me a tiny drop of reassurance is that he recovered from covid, so he probably does have *some* natural immunity, and if he does get it again, it is unlikely he would fare worse than in April. 
 

It’s also a comfort to me that all my kids got vaxed, including the youngest who was a bit hesitant.  

[BronzeTurtle]

9 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

And this is irrelevant to this discussion and a straw man so please stop. 

I think it is only a straw man if your argument doesn't involve valuing life. A PP made this argument so I think it's a fair point. The fact that people don't want to get into it is another matter, but it's not a straw man if someone else brings up the point of the value of life itself as a reason to get vaccinated. 

Not related to the above, but I am definitely confused about where exactly the encouragement not to get vaccinated is coming from. I know people complain about a certain channel, and while I don't have cable, lately any time I have been in a random place where that channel happens to be on, I have noticed the hosts having on people like Francis Collins or other scientists and the hosts themselves say things like, "Well, let's just hope more people get the vaccine." This is mostly during the day, not primetime so maybe there is a difference, but it's been weird to actually have occassion to see that sort of thing when I see other people complaning that source of news is anti-vax in particular.

I do think there is some inconsistency in forcing people to a point of personal suffering to get the vaccine. It's for your health so we are going to take away your job and ability to operate in society unless you do it seems to be rife with logical fallacies plus the fact that you can make pretty much anyone do pretty much anything if they feel desperate enough. that doesn't mean it's good to push people into a place of desparation so they will do what you (general) think is best for them. It worries me that people think this is a legitimate use of government force (in places where vaccine proof is required to go inside, etc.). It definitely goes against what I know of to be optimum public health strategy even in pandemic times. It is very reminisent of how people, including kids and hemophiliacs, were treated during the aids crisis. 

I also am weirded out by the idea that you can't have a titer or antibody test instead of a vaccine to satisfy any of these requirements, especially now that we know so much more than we did both about immunity from covid + transmission ability of vaccinated persons. It just seems to be brute forcing the vaccine when I think there are other scientific approaches that would be more inclusive and give back some trust to people who think they had covid, might be worried about side effects (esp. if they are male and younger) and they don't understand why they would be forced out of work for not getting a vaccine for a disease they already had when they had to work thru the pandemic before vaccines were available.

That to say I think there are better public health strategies than ostracization, causing pain of job loss, sweeping unflexible mandates, etc.

[Spryte]

The neighbor-friends I have mentioned on other threads are unvaccinated.

Parents of young kids, late 30s and early 40s. Both spent a week in the hospital, at the same time. Kids got passed to grandma. It was a close call for them both. After a week-ish home, the father had a blood clot in his lung, spent another 4 days in hospital. Home now but will be on oxygen for 6 weeks, on blood thinners for 4 months. On disability now. Oh, and now grandma has Covid.

All of this happened while our local hospitals were dealing with significant overwhelm. I experienced it firsthand, and the neighbor-friends themselves each spent about 36 hours on stretchers in the hallways of the ER waiting for rooms to open so they could be admitted. 

I’m tired of hospital overwhelm. It’s one thing when someone can’t get vaccinated for medical reasons or if they are sick despite a shot. But using all those resources when one is otherwise healthy and perfectly able to take a shot that will prevent serious illness in most cases — ugh. It feels careless of others.

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

I think this is the type of comment, attitude, and thinking that some of those who are choosing not to vaccinate are reacting to.  (I have had in depth conversations with people I know who are not vaccinated and there are a wide set of reasons).  Saying things like we've been trying to get people to vaccinate for almost a year seems like exageration when 7 months ago I know it was terribly difficult to get an appointment for a vaccine where I was.  It has been less than 6 months in my area since there were more appointments than people choosing to vaccinate.

While grown adults are choosing not to vaccinate, they are compared to children having a temper tantrum. who need to calm down  Those who want them to vaccinate are the discplining parent.  Saying that "if you had done what I think you should do, then I wouldn't make you do it" is a very odd way, in m opinion, to treat adults.  Personally I don't want a government that is doing the equivalent of sending adults to their room until they are ready to calm down and follow the rules.

I am vaccinated and want others to vaccinate.  At the same time, I want a government that treats adult citizens as adult citizens the government serves, not as children who are having a temper tantrum that the govenrment needs to discipline.  

Yeah, it just feeds the belief that this was never actually a choice.  Unless the term "choice" needs a new definition.

It doesn't help that a lot of people have an actual reason not to vaccinate which is not being considered at all.  Like the millions of people who have natural immunity that (depending on what day you ask the media) may be better than the vax.  Some of whom acquired that natural immunity caring for Covid patients.

I chose to get the vax for reasons, not because I didn't want Big Brother to "choose" it for me.

[Evelyn2108]

Healthy young mom does of vaccine induced blood clot.  She didn’t want the vaccine and was coerced into it.  Oh well, you can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs!

 

https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/exclusive-healthy-young-mother-dies-of-vaccine-induced-blood-clot-then-twitter-censors-her-obituary/

[MercyA]

5 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I think it is only a straw man if your argument doesn't involve valuing life. A PP made this argument so I think it's a fair point. The fact that people don't want to get into it is another matter, but it's not a straw man if someone else brings up the point of the value of life itself as a reason to get vaccinated. 

Right? Haven't we seen people here--time and again, and fairly so--criticize the hypocrisy of "pro-lifers" for not protecting others during pandemic? I didn't see anyone calling foul then. The point was that if you're going to say you value life, do it consistently. And we as a country do not. 

[Evelyn2108]

8 hours ago, kiwik said:

But people who are obese usually spend their whole life fighting it and would be overjoyed to take a vaccine that worked as well as some of the covid ones. And no one is saying people should ignore all the other problems.  We just aren't worrying so much about the floor until we fix the roof.  The floor is unsafe but fixing it before the roof is pointless.

Most people are fat because they overeat.  It’s totally preventable.  Worse yet, they abuse their children by feeding them garbage.  
 

Maybe we should have medical ids that one has to present when buying junk food.  If you are overweight, no buying unhealthy foods.  
 

There is after all a social cost to obesity.  Medical bills, orphaned children, lost productivity, etc... the ICUs would not have been overwhelmed if it weren’t for the obese.  
 

If we’re willing to regulate one choice, why not the other.  Slippery slope.  Once you go fascist there is no turning back. 

[MercyA]

22 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Healthy young mom does of vaccine induced blood clot.  She didn’t want the vaccine and was coerced into it.  Oh well, you can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs!

 

https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/exclusive-healthy-young-mother-dies-of-vaccine-induced-blood-clot-then-twitter-censors-her-obituary/

This is tragic. This is rare. Women under 50 should absolutely be made aware of the risk and the fact that mRNA vaccines are not thought to carry the same risk.

Stories like this should not be used to encourage people not to vaccinate at all, however. Hundreds of thousands of lives could have been and still can be saved by vaccination. 

From the CDC:

Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) after Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen (J&J/Janssen) COVID-19 vaccination is rare. As of September 29, 2021, more than 14.9 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine have been given in the United States. CDC and FDA identified 47 confirmed reports of people who got the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and later developed TTS.  Women younger than 50 years old especially should be aware of the rare but increased risk of this adverse event. There are other COVID-19 vaccine options available for which this risk has not been seen. 

To date, two confirmed cases of TTS following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Moderna) have been reported to VAERS after more than 376 million doses of  mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered in the United States. Based on available data, there is not an increased risk for TTS after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination.

Edited October 12, 2021 by MercyA

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Healthy young mom does of vaccine induced blood clot.  She didn’t want the vaccine and was coerced into it.  Oh well, you can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs!

 

https://www.clarkcountytoday.com/news/exclusive-healthy-young-mother-dies-of-vaccine-induced-blood-clot-then-twitter-censors-her-obituary/

I'll come back to my other things I was going to reply to, but I wanted to do this one separately because it has weighed very heavy on me. I spent a mostly sleepless night last week due to insomnia from this poor family weighing on my mind so heavily.  This is a horrible, horrible case. Worst case scenario as far as vaccines go. I know statistically that the risks from getting covid far, far, far outweigh any risks of the vaccine, but that's still really a hard one to handle on the individual level when you're looking at the one in a million or 5 million that is the one that has a freak outcome. It eventually struck me that it's a lot like wearing seatbelts. Wearing a seatbelt is clearly the right thing to do when you ride in a car, and it saves so many lives every year. Every once in a while though, there will be a type of accident where the wearing of the seatbelt contributes to someeone's death--a fire or landing in the water or something. That doesn't make wearing seatbelts any less the clearly right thing to do, though. We can't prevent every freak thing. In this particular case, making it all the more tragic is that without all the mRNA vaccine hysteria, this mom would likely have gotten the more effective mRNA vaccine, which also would have been much lower risk and almost surely would still be here. Johnson and Johnson has a known (very low) risk of blood clots in younger people, especially younger women. Pfizer or Moderna would have been so much safer and she would almost certainly still be here, plus wouldn't die of covid 😥.

There's no way to know both ways, but it's not unlikely that the people who have this kind of vaccine reaction (clots) are the same people who would have clots if they got covid, since Covid disease has a many, many fold higher rate of blood clot risk than the vaccine does. I'm afraid that now people will use tragic cases like this to convince other people not to get vaccinated, which will result in FAR more young mothers and fathers dying than the vaccine ever would. Which suggests their motivations have nothing to do with caring about people and saving lives. If you're truly sad about young mothers and fathers dying, you would be urging all of them to be vaccinated against covid. I could make a long, long list of stories equally tragic as the above, all from unvaccinated young people who needlessly died of covid. At this point, somewhere around 70,000 names long.

[MercyA]

5 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Most people are fat because they overeat.  It’s totally preventable.  Worse yet, they abuse their children by feeding them garbage.  
 

Maybe we should have medical ids that one has to present when buying junk food.  If you are overweight, no buying unhealthy foods.  
 

There is after all a social cost to obesity.  Medical bills, orphaned children, lost productivity, etc... the ICUs would not have been overwhelmed if it weren’t for the obese.  
 

If we’re willing to regulate one choice, why not the other.  Slippery slope.  Once you go fascist there is no turning back. 

Are you kidding me? People are overweight for a myriad of reasons, including genetics, co-existing health conditions, and medication side effects. And how do you know what overweight people feed their kids? Judgy much? 

We regulate choices *all the time.* You're not allowed to steal or kill or drive without a license or drive your kids somewhere without seat belts. Those laws are in place because some people will choose to hurt other people unless they are forced not to do so.

Where is your compassion? 

[Evelyn2108]

7 minutes ago, MercyA said:

This is tragic. This is rare. Women under 50 should absolutely be made aware of the risk and the fact that mRNA vaccines are not thought to carry the same risk.

Stories like this should not be used to encourage people not to vaccinate at all, however. Hundreds of thousands of lives could have been and still can be saved by vaccination. 

From the CDC:

Thrombosis with thrombocytopenia syndrome (TTS) after Johnson & Johnson’s Janssen (J&J/Janssen) COVID-19 vaccination is rare. As of September 29, 2021, more than 14.9 million doses of the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine have been given in the United States. CDC and FDA identified 47 confirmed reports of people who got the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and later developed TTS.  Women younger than 50 years old especially should be aware of the rare but increased risk of this adverse event. There are other COVID-19 vaccine options available for which this risk has not been seen. Learn more about J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS.

To date, two confirmed cases of TTS following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination (Moderna) have been reported to VAERS after more than 376 million doses of  mRNA COVID-19 vaccines administered in the United States. Based on available data, there is not an increased risk for TTS after mRNA COVID-19 vaccination.

Nobody knows if there are long term effects of mRNA because they haven’t been around long term.  Scientists say it is possible they could have negative effects.  That alone justifies giving people  reason to pass on the mRNA if they so choose.  If you are a liberal you support choice, if you are a fascist you do not.  

[Evelyn2108]

2 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Are you kidding me? People are overweight for a myriad of reasons, including genetics, co-existing health conditions, and medication side effects. And how do you know what overweight people feed their kids? Judgy much? 

We regulate choices *all the time.* You're not allowed to steal or kill or drive without a license or drive your kids somewhere without seat belts. Those laws are in place because some people will choose to hurt other people unless they are forced not to do so.

Where is your compassion? 

That’s why I said “most” not “all”. 

[TCB]

23 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I think it is only a straw man if your argument doesn't involve valuing life. A PP made this argument so I think it's a fair point. The fact that people don't want to get into it is another matter, but it's not a straw man if someone else brings up the point of the value of life itself as a reason to get vaccinated. 

Not related to the above, but I am definitely confused about where exactly the encouragement not to get vaccinated is coming from. I know people complain about a certain channel, and while I don't have cable, lately any time I have been in a random place where that channel happens to be on, I have noticed the hosts having on people like Francis Collins or other scientists and the hosts themselves say things like, "Well, let's just hope more people get the vaccine." This is mostly during the day, not primetime so maybe there is a difference, but it's been weird to actually have occassion to see that sort of thing when I see other people complaning that source of news is anti-vax in particular.

I do think there is some inconsistency in forcing people to a point of personal suffering to get the vaccine. It's for your health so we are going to take away your job and ability to operate in society unless you do it seems to be rife with logical fallacies plus the fact that you can make pretty much anyone do pretty much anything if they feel desperate enough. that doesn't mean it's good to push people into a place of desparation so they will do what you (general) think is best for them. It worries me that people think this is a legitimate use of government force (in places where vaccine proof is required to go inside, etc.). It definitely goes against what I know of to be optimum public health strategy even in pandemic times. It is very reminisent of how people, including kids and hemophiliacs, were treated during the aids crisis. 

I also am weirded out by the idea that you can't have a titer or antibody test instead of a vaccine to satisfy any of these requirements, especially now that we know so much more than we did both about immunity from covid + transmission ability of vaccinated persons. It just seems to be brute forcing the vaccine when I think there are other scientific approaches that would be more inclusive and give back some trust to people who think they had covid, might be worried about side effects (esp. if they are male and younger) and they don't understand why they would be forced out of work for not getting a vaccine for a disease they already had when they had to work thru the pandemic before vaccines were available.

That to say I think there are better public health strategies than ostracization, causing pain of job loss, sweeping unflexible mandates, etc.

I don’t know what to think about mandates, but I don’t necessarily think the primary purpose of mandating a vaccine is for the good of the individual getting it. I think it comes from a public health perspective of trying to end the pandemic as soon as possible. It’s not perfect but being vaccinated does reduce your chances of getting infected and reduces your chances of passing it on if you do get infected. For vaccinations to help to end the pandemic there needs to be sufficient people vaccinated to reduce transmission, to enable it to end. Somehow, by hook or by crook, I think, from a public health perspective, you have to get sufficient people vaccinated. Not saying I agree with all the methods and tactics, but I can understand, academically where they are coming from.

The main problem, in my opinion, throughout the pandemic, is that we have had to try and get people to act in the best interests of others, and not just themselves, and sadly there is a tremendous resistance to that. I’m really sad because I now realize that that is the kind of society I have to live in, and I really don’t want it to be so.

[MercyA]

1 minute ago, Evelyn2108 said:

Nobody knows if there are long term effects of mRNA because they haven’t been around long term.  Scientists say it is possible they could have negative effects.  That alone justifies giving people  reason to pass on the mRNA if they so choose.  If you are a liberal you support choice, if you are a fascist you do not.  

mRNA vaccines have been in the works for decades, first of all. 

Secondly, I'm not aware of any vaccines that have serious side effects appearing after six weeks or so. That's just the nature of them. At this point the vaccines appear to be some of the safest ever developed. 

Thirdly, people are dying by the MILLIONS from this disease. If someone isn't willing to take on a tiny amount of risk to help other people who are literally dying, they really should examine themselves.

LOL about the political labels. I'm not a liberal or a conservative. I just try to do what's right according to my conscience and Scripture. Not perfectly, but I try. 

[kbutton]

6 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Are you kidding me? People are overweight for a myriad of reasons, including genetics, co-existing health conditions, and medication side effects. And how do you know what overweight people feed their kids? Judgy much? 

We regulate choices *all the time.* You're not allowed to steal or kill or drive without a license or drive your kids somewhere without seat belts. Those laws are in place because some people will choose to hurt other people unless they are forced not to do so.

Where is your compassion? 

She doesn't have that gene. 

3 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

That’s why I said “most” not “all”. 

Wow, what a robust disclaimer! (Sarcasm alert)

You're making quite the entrance with your 7 or so posts so far. I am not sure how many friends you're making.

[SKL]

7 minutes ago, KSera said:

I'll come back to my other things I was going to reply to, but I wanted to do this one separately because it has weighed very heavy on me. I spent a mostly sleepless night last week due to insomnia from this poor family weighing on my mind so heavily.  This is a horrible, horrible case. Worst case scenario as far as vaccines go. I know statistically that the risks from getting covid far, far, far outweigh any risks of the vaccine, but that's still really a hard one to handle on the individual level when you're looking at the one in a million or 5 million that is the one that has a freak outcome. It eventually struck me that it's a lot like wearing seatbelts. Wearing a seatbelt is clearly the right thing to do when you ride in a car, and it saves so many lives every year. Every once in a while though, there will be a type of accident where the wearing of the seatbelt contributes to someeone's death--a fire or landing in the water or something. That doesn't make wearing seatbelts any less the clearly right thing to do, though. We can't prevent every freak thing. In this particular case, making it all the more tragic is that without all the mRNA vaccine hysteria, this mom would likely have gotten the more effective mRNA vaccine, which also would have been much lower risk and almost surely would still be here. Johnson and Johnson has a known (very low) risk of blood clots in younger people, especially younger women. Pfizer or Moderna would have been so much safer and she would almost certainly still be here, plus wouldn't die of covid 😥.

There's no way to know both ways, but it's not unlikely that the people who have this kind of vaccine reaction (clots) are the same people who would have clots if they got covid, since Covid disease has a many, many fold higher rate of blood clot risk than the vaccine does. I'm afraid that now people will use tragic cases like this to convince other people not to get vaccinated, which will result in FAR more young mothers and fathers dying than the vaccine ever would. Which suggests their motivations have nothing to do with caring about people and saving lives. If you're truly sad about young mothers and fathers dying, you would be urging all of them to be vaccinated against covid. I could make a long, long list of stories equally tragic as the above, all from unvaccinated young people who needlessly died of covid. At this point, somewhere around 70,000 names long.

Believe it or not, mRNA vaccines are contraindicated for some people.  A friend of mine is very allergic to an ingredient in both mRNA vaxes, so she got the J&J.

It is also a fact that there have been times & places in which the J&J was the only realistic option.

I don't know if that was the case for this lady or not.

I do know that more factual information provided by trusted sources is better.

I really hope (probably foolishly) that the importance of trust is one thing that has been / can be learned through this pandemic.

[MercyA]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

It is also a fact that there have been times & places in which the J&J was the only realistic option.

I don't know if that was the case for this lady or not.

I do know that more factual information provided by trusted sources is better.

She was in Seattle and her husband received the Pfizer vaccine. She very likely could have gone to a different pharmacy or her own physician to receive something other than J&J. The article didn't say anything about mRNA being contradicted for her. It's terribly tragic.

I agree with the bolded completely.

[Evelyn2108]

7 minutes ago, kbutton said:

She doesn't have that gene. 

Wow, what a robust disclaimer! (Sarcasm alert)

You're making quite the entrance with your 7 or so posts so far. I am not sure how many friends you're making.

This thread is about people and the choices they make and how those choices impact the pandemic.  
 

Saying that I’m not going to win a popularity contest doesn’t refute the issue that obesity is more likely to land you in the hospital with COVID and in many cases that obesity is preventable. 

[Evelyn2108]

14 minutes ago, MercyA said:

mRNA vaccines have been in the works for decades, first of all. 

Secondly, I'm not aware of any vaccines that have serious side effects appearing after six weeks or so. That's just the nature of them. At this point the vaccines appear to be some of the safest ever developed. 

 Yes, mRNA have been in the work for decades. Have you seen Dr Robert Malone’s position on them? He invented the technology decades ago.  Check him out on Twitter. 
 

All vaccines previously released to the public were studied for 3-7+ years.  MANY vaccines never made it to the general public because they had long term side effects. We simply don’t know, and just because YOU are ok with that gamble, doesn’t automatically make some other mother selfish because she’s not comfortable with that gamble on her child’s life. 

[Sneezyone]

45 minutes ago, MercyA said:

Right? Haven't we seen people here--time and again, and fairly so--criticize the hypocrisy of "pro-lifers" for not protecting others during pandemic? I didn't see anyone calling foul then. The point was that if you're going to say you value life, do it consistently. And we as a country do not. 

We do not all define ‘life’ the way you do which is the assumption underlying your comparison. Seriously, stop.

[Sneezyone]

4 minutes ago, Evelyn2108 said:

 Yes, mRNA have been in the work for decades. Have you seen Dr Robert Malone’s position on them? He invented the technology decades ago.  Check him out on Twitter. 
 

All vaccines previously released to the public were studied for 3-7+ years.  MANY vaccines never made it to the general public because they had long term side effects. We simply don’t know, and just because YOU are ok with that gamble, doesn’t automatically make some other mother selfish because she’s not comfortable with that gamble on her child’s life. 

Oh dear God! That is the same idiotic snippet my Dad found via tik tok. Meanwhile, his pulmonologist and GP are urging him to get the vax.