I feel so frustrated about people refusing vaccination…

[KSera]

1 hour ago, bolt. said:

I suspect the motivation is monetary. Monetary motivation for irrational behaviour is always a good bet. (Unless it's political, as you said.)

Monetary makes sense for some of the people in the media doing this. Doesn't make sense for average every day people, though. Like, I don't think anyone on this forum doing this is benefiting in any way monetarily.

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I've often wondered why we haven't seen more footage of what being inside of an ICU covid unit looks like.  I realize there are privacy concerns, but I suspect if people watched more procedures of what it looked like---what the actual care is---and how many of those patients are unvaccinated compared to those who have been vaccinated, if sentiment would change.I think if people saw what the pressure sores, the bipap or ECMO, the feeding tubes, the neuro deficits, the stillborn babies from the placenta clotting off.....like if they actually SAW what that looks like if it could cut through the disinformation a bit.

 

I have actually seen a couple of these. One was a video story and another was a written account from a nurse. Both really sad. I have shared them, but I expect part of the issue is that people who downplay covid risk just don't click through to watch or read something like that (and if they do, like you said, they decide it's all made up).

1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Okay. I acknowledge the odds are dramatically reduced. I have done so throughout this conversation. I don't know any other way to say that. I'm talking about the idea that people should not leave their homes if there is a risk of them spreading covid. that applies to any human person, or their pets for that matter, lol. so the logical end point of saying people shouldn't leave the house unvaccinated because they could spread a deadly disease, that applies to me, the vaccinated even if as I have acknowledged many times my chances are lower. and how do you keep healthy but unvaccinated people from being out in public except by physical force? let's say the requirement is for a public library or some such. when there is someone acting up in our local library (which happens quite a bit with the homeless population) the police are called and they are physically forced out of the building. if you, in general you, think physical force shouldn't be used to keep unvaccinated people out of the public, then there is no real teeth to any mandates passed. 

but here's the thing. I live normally since I got my vaccine. I have no idea who is vaccinated and who isn't out in public because I think my vaccine will work to protect me against the covid and all its variants (because the vaccine happens to be polyclonal againt the spike protein, as I understand the science). i don't act as if everyone is a possible human disease vector, at least not anymore than I did pre-covid. my vaccine works, and anyone in my sphere who wants a vaccine that works has been able to get one. anyone who is worried about their kids being around me has kept them in. anyone who has looked at the risk and decided its negligible for their kids compared to the value of socialization doesn't keep their kids in. if you would have told me that a vaccine with over 80% effectiveness against hospitalization and death for the most vulnerable, and that vaccine would be so available we'd be throwing doses away...if all that would mean that people were still going to be meeting outdoors only or avoiding indoor dining or whatever, i would not have believed you. if you would have told me a year ago someone could have reduced their risk by that much and still didn't want to go out without a mask I would have just laughed. So you and I are obviously coming from very different places here. I think my vaccine works and my neighbors vaccines work regardless of who I am out an about with or around. my goal is not to avoid covid infection because I think that is actually impossible short of never being indoors with people ever again in my lifetime. 

I still think the logical endpoints to the arguments that you and others are making are very, very dystopian even if you want to claim "no one is saying that." No one is saying a drunk driving analogy vis a vis covid means we want the unvaccinated jailed or physically forced into anything. we just think it means you might go out and hurt someone with your deliberate irresponsibility, but not that you should be physically kept from doing so. so what does that even mean? no one is saying that the person who is willfully spreading a deadly disease should be prevented from doing so in a physical way? I think the australian police would disagree with you there, specifically on the physical force part. they have used physical force to keep healthy people from being outside together because they could potentially spread covid. it's already happening in places.

 

the discussions here are downright  caricatures of people who are just people. are there weirdos online pedaling crap? yeah, well, okay there are, but spycar apparently follows people or gets news from somewhere that all the protesters in australia are neo-nazis, and someone else said it's mostly white supremacist types so it's not limited to just one facet of this issue. that news is coming from somewhere weird. someone just posted that they think money is involved in influencing people not to get vaxxed, which is hilarious because the "other side" says that big pharma is cashing in on the vaccines.  you all don't see how these are conspiracy theory roads as well? creating people you can hate so if you come across someone unvaccinated you can categorize them as unclean, racist, idiots, drunk drivers, murderers? there are whole hosts of people out there who are pro-vax and anti-mandates. they are just regular people who want to live their lives and let others live theirs. and somehow that sentiment is now anti-vax, white supremacy done for $$$? it's nuts and i thought people here would be sort of above that since it's an education board. oh well, the internet is the internet everywhere i suppose. 
 

There's so much here I can't decide whether or what to respond to. Overall, I think you have a very skewed idea of what people are saying. I've explained myself multiple times, and it's clear it hasn't changed what you think I'm saying to be any more accurate. I think I'll touch on just some of the top ones:

-I don't know anyone who doesn't think anyone unvaccinated shouldn't leave their homes. That's crazy, and certainly not something I have ever said.

-Being kept out of non essential places like restuarants and plays does not equal being kept out of public. Heck, everywhere I know doing the restaurant thing allows unvaccinated patrons to eat in the outdoor dining area even.

-It's totally fine that you live normally now. I have unvaccinated and elderly people in my life, so I go to extra lengths to protect them. That's not nuts.

-I don't know many people who "hate" unvaccinated people, though this forum may have a couple. There are extreme people everywhere. I see it in the comments sections online along with all the other awful things I see people say in comments sections online, but I don't think that is the prevalent sentiment among those who want everyone who can be vaccinated to do so.

-as far as conspiracy theories go, I don't know that money has much to do with it, but it is known that Russia has put a lot into spreading the anti-vax sentiment in the US for their own political reasons, and there are definitely vaccinated US politicians who are spreading anti-vax sentiment to benefit their own political careers. Those aren't conspiracy theories though, those are things that are happening.

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

From my Facebook feed last week:

"Hey, friends! Sorry I've been so quiet the last few weeks. I've been sick with a bad cold for a few weeks now."

(a dozen or so posts later in the thread)

"Yeah, it's crazy! I know like ten families with covid right now!"

(deeper in the thread)

"The homecoming game was so great! It was such a fun weekend seeing (kids) and then seeing (everybody at church). Super sad to be missing (older family member who died recently)---wish they could have seen (kids) play!"

(deeper in the thread)

"Almost done with my quarantine! Work was giving me extra sick leave because of covid."

----------------

Would you have interacted differently around this person when you saw them at the homecoming game, or at church, or at the family funeral  if you knew that they had a positive covid test and were suppressing their symptoms with medication so they could go do all of the things with their kids?

Does the fact that you now know that they had covid and weren't telling anyone on purpose until their "quarantine" was up and they could go back to work change how you will interact with them in the future?

 

 

Wow. Yeah I would struggle to keep a modicum of regard for the person. 

[frogger]

31 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I disagree. At this point those who demonstrate disregard for human life should be treated based on their behavior.

Actions have consequences. Anti-vaxxers/Anti-maskers are causing death and illness in addition to breaking the healthcare system and damaging the economy.

These folks don't deserve gold stars.

Acting like it is "normal behavior" is what's not constructive in my estimation.

Bill

So what are you going to do about it? 

Reeducation camps? 

Lock them all up? 

Though I have been tempted by the same thoughts as you when watching our crazy assembly meetings, I really don't see how you can solve any problems with this attitude. 

Your narrative says they're evil.

Their narrative says you're evil. 

That leaves you at an impasse. 

 

History tells me humans can be crazy, do unthinking things, be manipulated, and seemingly normal people can do insanely evil stuff. I think that is actually more normal than we like to admit but it shouldn't be.

So it begs the question, "What do we do now?"

Edited October 14, 2021 by frogger

[LMD]

20 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Yet you denied that neo-Nazis and other violent white supremacists took over the Melbourne anti-vaxx "march" from the trade workers union (whose leaders condemned them).

You either don't know what's going on in your own country or you are being dishonest.

Bill 

Bill, the fount of all knowledge!

Why do I keep taking the bait. I'm done.

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said:

the discussions here are downright  caricatures of people who are just people. are there weirdos online pedaling crap? yeah, well, okay there are, but spycar apparently follows people or gets news from somewhere that all the protesters in australia are neo-nazis, and someone else said it's mostly white supremacist types so it's not limited to just one facet of this issue. that news is coming from somewhere weird. 

Good lord.

The news that neo-Nazis and other violent extremists took over a "march" in Melbourne (that turned violent) that was ostensibly by trade workers--but wasn't--was widely reported in the mainstream Australian press, including SBS News. Nothing remotely "weird" about the news sources.

When one finds oneself on the same side as Nazis, it is generally a good idea to check one's moral compass.

Bill

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/construction-union-condemns-neo-nazis-at-melbourne-vaccine-mandate-protest/76ff7600-3bd4-478d-ad04-78dbfe56dcdc

Construction union condemns 'neo-Nazis' at Melbourne vaccine mandate protest

The CFMEU says the protest outside its Melbourne office was "heavily infiltrated by neo-Nazis and other right-wing extremist groups".

"This crowd was heavily infiltrated by neo-Nazis and other right-wing extremist groups and it is clear that a minority of those who participated were actual union members," Dave Noonan, CFMEU national construction secretary, said in a statement on Monday evening, condemning the "far right extremist violence". 

 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

Bill, the fount of all knowledge!

Why do I keep taking the bait. I'm done.

When you misrepresent the truth don't be surprised to be countered with the facts. 

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

8 minutes ago, frogger said:

So what are you going to do about it? 

Reeducation camps? 

Lock them all up? 

Though I have been tempted by the same thoughts as you when watching our crazy assembly meetings, I really don't see how you can solve any problems with this attitude. 

Your narrative says they're evil.

Their narrative says you're evil. 

That leaves you at an impasse. 

 

History tells me humans can be crazy, do unthinking things, be manipulated, and seemingly normal people can do insanely evil stuff. I think that is actual more normal than we like to admit but it shouldn't be.

So it begs the question, "What do we do now?"

How many red herrings can you pack into a post?

Bill

[prairiewindmomma]

33 minutes ago, maize said:

Engaging in othering is not harmful only to those being othered. 

It profoundly undermines our own ability to see people who may not agree with us or look like us or have the same experiences as us as, fundamentally, human. 

Like you.

Like me.

It feeds divisiveness and hinders any ability we might have to influence anyone for good.

 Responding to what we perceive to be wrong in others with wrongs of our own is not constructive.

I've wondered sometimes if not only has there been a campaign of misinformation, but also a profound lack of empathy and willingness to discommode oneself to the benefit of the community.  In the US, it was often the trust that we had in our institutions (church, government, schools) and in leaders that helped draw us together as a community.  Our communities have become different than they used to be.  I do agree that "othering" is often not helpful, but I also think that failing to call out the sickness in our society is a problem. We really shouldn't develop a tolerance for lying and manipulation.

[frogger]

4 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

How many red herrings can you pack into a post?

Bill

When are you going to say what should actually be done? 

Oh, you are only capable of name calling, not problem solving. 

[TravelingChris]

53 minutes ago, frogger said:

I would say SpyCar is an extremist just as there are extremist in the right.  People who can't recognize that all of life is trade offs, that getting kids to school is important, and that some government officials may over react just as some under react is important. At some point people have to look at the big picture. 

I think there are a lot of people who want to be helpful but understand trade offs and want to watch mental health, education and such but they aren't the loudest people. 

I can definitely see why LMD and others in highly restricted states worry about freedom. I come from the other side of the world and not just literally but figuratively. 

 

  I live in a city with the highest rate of Covid in the US right now. The Assembly passed a mask mandate that has a 60 day limitation or when hospitals are no longer operating under crises care. This is nothing like the years long issues LMD is talking about.  The mandate is for indoors only gives exemptions for medical issues, for anyone communicating with deaf or hearing impaired, for anyone under the age of 5, sporting activities, and even churchs are exempt! But still people literally wore yellow stars to the assembly meeting, screamed at people, threatened people, attack nurses, booed health care workers who testified and after putting up this craziness for hours and hours for 6 days the assembly passed a very short term mandate with tons of exemptions the Mayor said it was passed under the cover of darkness. If anyone mentions a business demanding masks, they go on a rant about liberals and the cost of extreme lock downs. We have never ever had an extreme lock down! 

So how do you have a useful conversation ever. Even if you ask if people would be willing to be helpful with NO mandates this group will hate it because only a liberal would wear a mask and by the way our local hospital should be charged with murder because an assemblywoman's friend died because he couldn't just get all his quack remedies. On a forum you can hit ignore and just skip over the name calling etc but our assembly didn't have an ignore button during the public testimony. 

I do think one could have a rational conversation about whether businesses should be the ones enforcing things, etc. I was trying to catch up on Bootsie's conversation yesterday but was running all day. 

I also find the book I'm reading on the Psychology of Pandemics interesting. How do we as a society help people find real information? How do we encourage them to not get sucked into emotional arguments? How do we get them to look for trustworthy sources. Maybe the John Hopkins website is a more logical place to look than a political blogger. It feels too late now for this round. The cat is out of the bag now and people are believers in whatever extreme view they have taken but what about the future? What about other problems that will require collective action? I would love to have collective action without force if possible. 

 

Well I don't think it is unusual that in my state, where we have a lot of car crashes where people die from not wearing seatbelts, is also a state where a lot of people do not want the vaccine.  But what is strange is that my state has the highest amount of people vaccinated for all the things schools require.

[MooCow]

29 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

Yes. I would not interact with this person ever again. This is an evil line in sand for me. When our son was being isolated due to a major health issue when he was six, some people we thought were good friends, invited a bunch of people over to her daughter's birthday party including us. We declined because ds couldn't be around other kids at that time, but found out later their youngest child had a raging case of step throat and had been on a antibiotics less than 24 hrs, and the oldest child had been up in the night throwing up. They didn't cancel the party or even tell the guests before they came into the house because they didn't want to disappoint their middle kid. 

With friends like that, who needs enemies! We never socialized with them ever again and let the relationship die on the vine.

So the folks in this scenario would be the kind that if I happened to see them on this sidewalk, I would nod my head politely as I went by, but there would be NO social interaction with my family. That is wicked, disgusting behavior that has far reaching consequences, and therefore is no someone I need to allow into my inner circle.

Absolutely!!! When my youngest had it, I kept it private per his wish except for the health department, dd's work, dh's work and his school. His high school was closed during a week of this. We literally went nowhere. To do otherwise would be basically saying the f word you to everyone. It's disgusting behavior. I honestly don't think I know anyone who would do that, especially since we've really tightened our circle to 6 family members. 

[Spy Car]

6 minutes ago, frogger said:

When are you going to say what should actually be done? 

Oh, you are only capable of name calling, not problem solving. 

I already have. Those who refuse to take basic steps to protect themselves and others should be denied access to indoor public spaces until the emergency situation passes.

It isn't reasonable to be losing 2,000 people a day and accept it as "normal" when we have safe and effective vaccines.

Bill

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Spy Car

[BronzeTurtle]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

Monetary makes sense for some of the people in the media doing this. Doesn't make sense for average every day people, though. Like, I don't think anyone on this forum doing this is benefiting in any way monetarily.

I have actually seen a couple of these. One was a video story and another was a written account from a nurse. Both really sad. I have shared them, but I expect part of the issue is that people who downplay covid risk just don't click through to watch or read something like that (and if they do, like you said, they decide it's all made up).

There's so much here I can't decide whether or what to respond to. Overall, I think you have a very skewed idea of what people are saying. I've explained myself multiple times, and it's clear it hasn't changed what you think I'm saying to be any more accurate. I think I'll touch on just some of the top ones:

-I don't know anyone who doesn't think anyone unvaccinated shouldn't leave their homes. That's crazy, and certainly not something I have ever said.

-Being kept out of non essential places like restuarants and plays does not equal being kept out of public. Heck, everywhere I know doing the restaurant thing allows unvaccinated patrons to eat in the outdoor dining area even.

-It's totally fine that you live normally now. I have unvaccinated and elderly people in my life, so I go to extra lengths to protect them. That's not nuts.

-I don't know many people who "hate" unvaccinated people, though this forum may have a couple. There are extreme people everywhere. I see it in the comments sections online along with all the other awful things I see people say in comments sections online, but I don't think that is the prevalent sentiment among those who want everyone who can be vaccinated to do so.

-as far as conspiracy theories go, I don't know that money has much to do with it, but it is known that Russia has put a lot into spreading the anti-vax sentiment in the US for their own political reasons, and there are definitely vaccinated US politicians who are spreading anti-vax sentiment to benefit their own political careers. Those aren't conspiracy theories though, those are things that are happening.

dealing with the bullet points in order:

--You responded to me responding to spycar who said exactly that. my original reply to him was dealing with that premise. if you don't agree with him, then that's fine but that's what I was responding to. so it doesn't make sense for you to respond to my questions to him and then claim you never said anything like that. I never said you did or tried to attribute his views to you except where I thought you were responding to me to agree with him. clear as mud?

--What other groups of healthy people should be kept from going into various places? Insert any group besides unvaccinated and try to make the argument that you aren't keeping them out of public, just telling them they can't do a few things that aren't essential. it isn't reasonable in a free society. quarantining sick people is reasonable. if you want to mandate everyone get the vax because it's just that important, then that is a fight to have, i think. making a group of people persona non grata in various proposed ways is not good even in a pandemic. if it is, we might as well go back to having colonies and camps to put people into.

--I have unvaccinated and elderly people in my life too. They also live normally. people can obviously do what they want. I do think there is something odd at play if vaccinated people live as if they are not vaccinated or as if the vaccine does not work. for awhile it made me really question if my vaccine would work given the way the most ardent pro-vaxxers talk online and such. but the data kind of led me another way.

--if you, in general you, think of the unvaccinated as stupid (falling prey to misinformation), criminals (being likened to a drunk driver), racist, or willfully spreading disease then that is a form of contempt at the very least. if you personally don't think that, that's not what i'm talking about. these are all things i've read on this forum today. but if it's not you, then i'm clearly not talking about you in particular. I don't know how to make my thoughts more general than they are, but you seem to think every time I reply that I'm speaking of you personally. I'm talking about things that are very obviously damaging to society in general, ideas that are being stated here on this thread and elsewhere, not you that in particular are the one stating them.

--russia and china are both very interested in disruption of american society. they do a lot of things to that end. the more divided we are, the better for them. as far as keeping healthy people indoors, china really went out of their way there, and people like spycar think it's pretty resonable, lol. as for anti-vax politicians, there are also politicians imposing the strictest of health measures and want mandates for their respective areas and then going to bars to party unmasked. that isn't a conspiracy theory either. the political elite are doing a terrible job of what they are supposed to be doing, but these things run the gamut. I don't know any politician mandating people not get vaccinated or banning vaccination, so I'm not sure what politician who is anti-vax is against personal freedom on this issue. in any case, yes, disinformation on the internet is a thing. i'm not sure I've ever disagreed with that. people, in general, will gloss over what they see as fine from people they agree with and latch on to the most egregious examples to show that the "other side" is crazy.

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

I would say SpyCar is an extremist just as there are extremist in the right. 

 

LOL. The only sort of "extremist" I am is an extreme moderate.

The USA is closing in on a three-quarters of million deaths.

Not masking and not vaxxing is extremist behavior.

Getting vaccinated is acting to preserve life.

How is that so difficult to understand???

Bill

 

 

[maize]

3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I've wondered sometimes if not only has there been a campaign of misinformation, but also a profound lack of empathy and willingness to discommode oneself to the benefit of the community.  In the US, it was often the trust that we had in our institutions (church, government, schools) and in leaders that helped draw us together as a community.  Our communities have become different than they used to be.  I do agree that "othering" is often not helpful, but I also think that failing to call out the sickness in our society is a problem. We really shouldn't develop a tolerance for lying and manipulation.

I agree with the bolded.

Calling out sickness meaning calling out attitudes and behaviors I can also agree with. 

And othering is among the attitudes and behaviors we need to call out.

Not because it is abnormal or unusual. It is entirely normal human behavior. We are a tribalistic species--profoundly so, from what I can see. We naturally and nearly universally reinforce our association with "people like me" by heaping contempt on "people not like me."

It's powerful and effective. And entirely toxic in a pluralistic society. It can only widen social and political and religious and ethnic and, evidently, pandemic-behavior divides. 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, maize said:

I agree with the bolded.

Calling out sickness meaning calling out attitudes and behaviors I can also agree with. 

And othering is among the attitudes and behaviors we need to call out.

Not because it is abnormal or unusual. It is entirely normal human behavior. We are a tribalistic species--profoundly so, from what I can see. We naturally and nearly universally reinforce our association with "people like me" by heaping contempt on "people not like me."

It's powerful and effective. And entirely toxic in a pluralistic society. It can only widen social and political and religious and ethnic and, evidently, pandemic-behavior divides. 

Such an argument might work if one presupposes there are two reasonable sides to a matter on which there are principled points of disagreement.

But that's not the case here.

On some issues there are clear lines of what is moral and immoral behavior.

This is one of them. People are dying directly due to this nonsense.

Who has not been touched by a loss? Time to call it what it is.

Bill

 

[BronzeTurtle]

14 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I've wondered sometimes if not only has there been a campaign of misinformation, but also a profound lack of empathy and willingness to discommode oneself to the benefit of the community.  In the US, it was often the trust that we had in our institutions (church, government, schools) and in leaders that helped draw us together as a community.  Our communities have become different than they used to be.  I do agree that "othering" is often not helpful, but I also think that failing to call out the sickness in our society is a problem. We really shouldn't develop a tolerance for lying and manipulation.

The people who have been my heroes in all of this are the people willing to enter in with the sick or put themselves in harms way of this illness despite great personal risk. Teachers who were willing to teach when public schools shut down. Daycare workers for people who couldn't work from home. People who couldn't work from home. Nurses and doctors. People working in prisons and meat packing plants. 

It was and is amazing to me. It actually breaks my heart that a lot of those people now are being lumped in with anti-vax crazies because they went through all of that exposure and now don't want a vaccine for various reasons. i just think, dang, if a nurse worked through covid, probably got covid, and now doesn't want a vaccine...i'll let her be my nurse. that person is my personal hero. instead there are a whole bunch of people who think she should be fired and not leave her house or do anything non-essential. and it isn't even about science if she's already had covid and seen the worst of the worst.  the whole thing definitely baffles me.

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, BronzeTurtle said:

The people who have been my heroes in all of this are the people willing to enter in with the sick or put themselves in harms way of this illness despite great personal risk. Teachers who were willing to teach when public schools shut down. Daycare workers for people who couldn't work from home. People who couldn't work from home. Nurses and doctors. People working in prisons and meat packing plants. 

It was and is amazing to me. It actually breaks my heart that a lot of those people now are being lumped in with anti-vax crazies because they went through all of that exposure and now don't want a vaccine for various reasons. i just think, dang, if a nurse worked through covid, probably got covid, and now doesn't want a vaccine...i'll let her be my nurse. that person is my personal hero. instead there are a whole bunch of people who think she should be fired and not leave her house or do anything non-essential. and it isn't even about science if she's already had covid and seen the worst of the worst.  the whole thing definitely baffles me.

Nurses are literally begging people--with tears in their eyes--to get vaccinated.

Yet you seek to exploit them by this bogus nonsense? Have you no shame?

Bill

[frogger]

3 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I already have. Those who refuse to take basic steps to protect themselves and others should be denied access to indoor public spaces until the emergency situation passes.

It isn't reasonable to be losing 2,000 people a day and accept it as "normal" when we have safe and effective vaccines.

Bill

 

 

Although I am ok with restrictions during an emergency such as this Delta Wave, I actually believe this will make people dig in their heels. We would have to pull out the national guard and station them everywhere. We don't have enough jail space for 30%-50%  of the population or whatever it is. Unless the business or church or neighbor (when people meet together in homes) are willing to help enforce things you are just writing words on paper.

I assume this is why the government went after employment specifically. People don't like losing their jobs. It is easier to target and enforce small areas. 

Like it or not, consent of the people is an important part of ruling. People who hear the likes of you are more likely to say, "Make me." That may seem doable until there are thousands. 

Hospitals can't deal with thousands and police can't deal with thousands. 

 

[Spy Car]

5 minutes ago, frogger said:

Although I am ok with restrictions during an emergency such as this Delta Wave, I actually believe this will make people dig in their heels. We would have to pull out the national guard and station them everywhere. We don't have enough jail space for 30%-50%  of the population or whatever it is. Unless the business or church or neighbor (when people meet together in homes) are willing to help enforce things you are just writing words on paper.

I assume this is why the government went after employment specifically. People don't like losing their jobs. It is easier to target and enforce small areas. 

Like it or not, consent of the people is an important part of ruling. People who hear the likes of you are more likely to say, "Make me." That may seem doable until there are thousands. 

Hospitals can't deal with thousands and police can't deal with thousands. 

 

"Dig in their heels?" They already have.

The only thing that's going to work at this juncture is making public spaces safer for those who are doing the right thing and quarantining whose behaviors are driving sickness and death until we can get this surge under control.

2,000 deaths a day is not an acceptable situation when the vast majority of these deaths are easily preventable.

Those who want to be part of society need to do their share. Let's see individual responsibility instead of wanton disregard for human life. Or stay home.

Bill

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Spy Car

[LMD]

28 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

When you misrepresent the truth don't be surprised to be countered with the facts. 

Bill

 

 

did you also read that the cfmeu has this week been implicated in corruption with the government? Which, for anyone who knows any victorian history, is the opposite of a surprise. I watched the witness testimonies live, did you? 

I have read my state's public health act, amendments and mandates, and I watched the parliamentary debates. Have you?

I don't care if you believe that I'm a lying, anti vaxxer neo-Nazi 😄  I don't have the problem of seeing people that I vehemently disagree with as being less deserving of human rights or equal treatment under our own laws 🤷‍♀️

[Spy Car]

5 minutes ago, LMD said:

 

did you also read that the cfmeu has this week been implicated in corruption with the government? Which, for anyone who knows any victorian history, is the opposite of a surprise. I watched the witness testimonies live, did you? 

I have read my state's public health act, amendments and mandates, and I watched the parliamentary debates. Have you?

I don't care if you believe that I'm a lying, anti vaxxer neo-Nazi 😄  I don't have the problem of seeing people that I vehemently disagree with as being less deserving of human rights or equal treatment under our own laws 🤷‍♀️

LOL. Union corruption (or lack thereof) has nothing to do with the fact that the violent anti-vaxx protest in Melbourne was led by neo-Nazis. Just as I said. And just as reported in the mainstream Australian press. Right?

I mean, I'm just an "American," but at least I have the facts straight.

Your suggestion that I don't think everyone deserves their human rights is utterly false. Killing other people is not a human right. Just the opposite.

Do you not ponder if your moral compass is off when you find yourself on the same side as neo-Nazis? It sure would make me wonder.

Bill

[frogger]

Just now, Spy Car said:

"Dig in their heels?" They already have.

The only thing that's going to work at this juncture is making public spaces safer for those who are doing the right thing and guaranteeing those whose behaviors are driving sickness and death until we can get this surge under control.

2,000 deaths a day is not an acceptable situation when the vast majority of these deaths are easily preventable.

Those who want to be part of society need to do their share. Let's see individual responsibility instead of wanton disregard for human life. Or stay home.

Bill

 

Although, I agree with the sentiment about public safety and the unfairness of everything I think you are in la la land about the governments ability to enforce things. You can't arrest 30% of the population. That is ridiculous. If businesses and churchs and such don't help then you won't even know who is complying. 🙄

Actually, the extremists are digging in their heels at a simple face covering but many others whom I'm trying to convince to vaccinate are more open. I have convinced a couple. It will make the other sides narrative, that is all about controlling people, more plausible.

They have a narrative in their head that your ilk is just trying to take their freedoms. Most are not Nazi's or supremacists. They are people dealing with a very confusing time. They hear different info at different times and (especially the older generation) are not used to conflicting information. They don't know who to listen to.

Today, I'm calling a sweet older lady who refuses to vaccinate. She trusts the other sides narrative. She also is still caring for a young man she adopted from foster care. He is of Indian background and has disabilities that mean when she adopted him she would give up her WHOLE life. He is closing in on 30 but will never be able to live without some kind of assistance. Daily she works to make sure he lives a full life with outside hobbies and part time jobs though he will never drive. 

But according to you she isn't a confused woman, she is just a hateful and immoral person. 

I'm sorry but it is back to ignore for you. I can't see our conversation being productive. 

[LMD]

Personal attack removed

 

really? The one not accusing people of being nazis is deleted?

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by LMD
personal attack

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

unhinged Bill is unhinged.

Yet, I reported the actual facts, while you engaged in reality-denialism.

Something here doesn't compute.

Why not embrace the truth?

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

4 minutes ago, frogger said:

Although, I agree with the sentiment about public safety and the unfairness of everything I think you are in la la land about the governments ability to enforce things. You can't arrest 30% of the population. That is ridiculous. If businesses and churchs and such don't help then you won't even know who is complying. 🙄

Actually, the extremists are digging in their heels at a simple face covering but many others whom I'm trying to convince to vaccinate are more open. I have convinced a couple. It will make the other sides narrative, that is all about controlling people, more plausible.

They have a narrative in their head that your ilk is just trying to take their freedoms. Most are not Nazi's or supremacists. They are people dealing with a very confusing time. They hear different info at different times and (especially the older generation) are not used to conflicting information. They don't know who to listen to.

Today, I'm calling a sweet older lady who refuses to vaccinate. She trusts the other sides narrative. She also is still caring for a young man she adopted from foster care. He is of Indian background and has disabilities that mean when she adopted him she would give up her WHOLE life. He is closing in on 30 but will never be able to live without some kind of assistance. Daily she works to make sure he lives a full life with outside hobbies and part time jobs though he will never drive. 

But according to you she isn't a confused woman, she is just a hateful and immoral person. 

I'm sorry but it is back to ignore for you. I can't see our conversation being productive. 

Who said arrest the unvaccinated population? Not me.

It is sad that people have fallen for the lies of a huge disinformation campaign. Hopefully you can reach the sweet old lady. Covid kills.

Bill

[Bootsie]

14 minutes ago, frogger said:

Although I am ok with restrictions during an emergency such as this Delta Wave, I actually believe this will make people dig in their heels. We would have to pull out the national guard and station them everywhere. We don't have enough jail space for 30%-50%  of the population or whatever it is. Unless the business or church or neighbor (when people meet together in homes) are willing to help enforce things you are just writing words on paper.

I assume this is why the government went after employment specifically. People don't like losing their jobs. It is easier to target and enforce small areas. 

Like it or not, consent of the people is an important part of ruling. People who hear the likes of you are more likely to say, "Make me." That may seem doable until there are thousands. 

Hospitals can't deal with thousands and police can't deal with thousands. 

 

I agree that this is part of the reason.  I don't think it is even so much targeting that people do not want to lose their jobs it is an attempt to pass the duty of enforcement to employers.  

It is difficult to talk about the proposed OSHA ETS because we haven't actually seen it, yet.  So, there are a lot of questions about what it will say, but not anything we can talk discuss about what it does say, allow, prevent, etc.  That, in and of itself, I see as an example of poor leadership we have had since the beginning of the pandemic.  For a politician to say "I have a plan to have a plan..." is not helpful.  It becomes divisive because people are debating rumors and hunches, not real policy issues.  

From what I have heard about what this ETS will probably involve, it does very little to protect my health in the workplace.  I work for an employer with approximately 2500 employees.  It has been over two weeks since I have been in the same room as another employee (I am trying to remember the last time that even occurred).  Yet, I was in a room with 75 of my employer's customers yesterday for an hour and a half, followed by 75 more of my employer's customers for the next hour and a half.  If the ETS was really about ensuring I had a work environment that is free from grade danger from a material; it would not matter if that material was the result of a customer breathing or a fellow employee breathing.  

If the government were seriously wanting to use employment status as a way to motivate vaccination, it would regulate the employee, not the employer.  The government would have a difficult time policing that--so turn the policing job over to employers with more than 100 employees. This is not an issue of using OSHA to regulate hazards, reign in corporations who would otherwise not take responsibility for a safe environment, or any of the other reasons why it might be desirable to have a government regulatory authority over business.  It is shifting implementing public policy and policing to employers.  

Since we don't know exactly what the ETS will do, we don't know what businesses will be required to do to collect proof, maintain medical records, verify testing, etc.  If you look, however, OSHA has limited staff to enforce this.  So, are we creating a situation where a few companies will be chosen, examined, and fined if they are not in compliance?  How will OSHA decide which companies to investigate first?  Companies are in a bind of our lawyers say we need to do X because of this regulation but we can't do X becuase of another regulation.  This results in a lot of lawyers being employed and politicians getting to make pithy quotes about how passionate they are and what they are doing to help without there being anything really happening to help with the crisis at hand.

[frogger]

2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Who said arrest the unvaccinated population? Not me.

It is sad that people have fallen for the lies of a huge disinformation campaign. Hopefully you can reach the sweet old lady. Covid kills.

Bill

Well, if you don't enforce laws they are simply not obeyed. We had a mask mandate and although more people masked there was a large percentage who just refused and went about their business anyway. If you don't enforce something, it is just words on paper. 

[prairiewindmomma]

35 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 It actually breaks my heart that a lot of those people now are being lumped in with anti-vax crazies because they went through all of that exposure and now don't want a vaccine for various reasons. i just think, dang, if a nurse worked through covid, probably got covid, and now doesn't want a vaccine...i'll let her be my nurse. 

Just because you have had covid once doesn't mean you won't get covid again.

There are a number of individuals who have had repeat infections, including teachers and healthcare workers that I know.

I don't want an unvaccinated person working as my nurse because: 1. there is direct close contact, 2. they are statistically more likely than a vaccinated person to contract covid, 3. they are statistically more likely to carry a higher viral load than a vaccinated person if they were to contract covid, and 4. they most likely work with vulnerable populations (like me!) for whom the consequences of catching disease are higher, 5. the person receiving medical care often has to unmask as part of that care so I have no ability to fully protect myself (this year I've had to unmask for dental care, breathing treatments, and a few other things). 

I would probably feel differently if repeat infections weren't a thing, but they are.  If it was like smallpox, and once you had it you were immune, I'd be ok with that. But covid isn't like that.

[Spy Car]

5 minutes ago, frogger said:

Well, if you don't enforce laws they are simply not obeyed. We had a mask mandate and although more people masked there was a large percentage who just refused and went about their business anyway. If you don't enforce something, it is just words on paper. 

Not a bit. Employers can make sure workers are vaccinated. Businesses open to the public can do the same when admitting patrons.

All this is happening now. 

If a few out-of-control individuals get themselves jailed, they will have no one to blame but themselves. Otherwise proof of vaccinations is no big hurdle.

Bill

 

[BronzeTurtle]

41 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Nurses are literally begging people--with tears in their eyes--to get vaccinated.

Yet you seek to exploit them by this bogus nonsense? Have you no shame?

Bill

yes, my goal is to exploit nurses by posting on a message board about the compassion i saw them show and continue to show during a pandemic where they were forced to work in substandard conditions and now some of them are being forced out of a job because of a personal medical decision related to said job. how can you possible claim that 100% of nurses agree with you? even a quick google search will show this not to be true.

I think it is you that want to exploit them, spycar. how can you prove me wrong?

[Spy Car]

Just now, BronzeTurtle said:

yes, my goal is to exploit nurses by posting on a message board about the compassion i saw them show and continue to show during a pandemic where they were forced to work in substandard conditions and now some of them are being forced out of a job because of a personal medical decision related to said job. how can you possible claim that 100% of nurses agree with you? even a quick google search will show this not to be true.

I think it is you that want to exploit them, spycar. how can you prove me wrong?

I didn't claim that 100% of nurses agree with anything. That's you making things up.

But the overwhelming majority of doctors and nurses are pleading with people to get vaccinated. In many places they are at the breaking point.

Why can't you acknowledge the truth of this pandemic? How many people have to die needlessly?

Bill

 

[BronzeTurtle]

7 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Just because you have had covid once doesn't mean you won't get covid again.

There are a number of individuals who have had repeat infections, including teachers and healthcare workers that I know.

I don't want an unvaccinated person working as my nurse because: 1. there is direct close contact, 2. they are statistically more likely than a vaccinated person to contract covid, 3. they are statistically more likely to carry a higher viral load than a vaccinated person if they were to contract covid, and 4. they most likely work with vulnerable populations (like me!) for whom the consequences of catching disease are higher, 5. the person receiving medical care often has to unmask as part of that care so I have no ability to fully protect myself (this year I've had to unmask for dental care, breathing treatments, and a few other things). 

I would probably feel differently if repeat infections weren't a thing, but they are.  If it was like smallpox, and once you had it you were immune, I'd be ok with that. But covid isn't like that.

Yes and just because you are vaccinated doesn't mean you won't get covid and spread it either. I would guess the science is saying that natural immunity is about the same on that score. And natural immunity seems more durable than a vaccine, at least as durable, so, again, I'd like them to make their own decisions without threats of losing their jobs.

Since they are medical professionals, i would rather leave it to them to make their own medical decisions and give them the benefit of the doubt. I certainly don't want them to lose their jobs or licenses or anything like that after working through the pandemic.

I know repeat infections are a thing. I'm vaccinated though and my vaccine works quite well, at least according to the data. So that is the difference now and it makes me so much more confident going into needed medical procedures.

But I suppose that is where all of us differ in this thread.

[prairiewindmomma]

1 minute ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Yes and just because you are vaccinated doesn't mean you won't get covid and spread it either. I would guess the science is saying that natural immunity is about the same on that score. And natural immunity seems more durable than a vaccine, at least as durable, so, again, I'd like them to make their own decisions without threats of losing their jobs.

Since they are medical professionals, i would rather leave it to them to make their own medical decisions and give them the benefit of the doubt. I certainly don't want them to lose their jobs or licenses or anything like that after working through the pandemic.

I know repeat infections are a thing. I'm vaccinated though and my vaccine works quite well, at least according to the data. So that is the difference now and it makes me so much more confident going into needed medical procedures.

But I suppose that is where all of us differ in this thread.

So, you have confidence in your vaccine, which makes you more confident going in to needed medical procedures, but you don't want your medical professional to feel pressure to also be vaccinated? 

36% of all people who get covid don't develop antibodies from their infection.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article

65% of people who had a milder case of covid lost all antibodies by the 60 day mark post-infection.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article

I think I don't have much confidence in natural immunity in unvaccinated persons based on those studies. I would feel better about someone who is vaccinated, and who has had boosters at appropriate intervals caring for me.

[BronzeTurtle]

8 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I didn't claim that 100% of nurses agree with anything. That's you making things up.

But the overwhelming majority of doctors and nurses are pleading with people to get vaccinated. In many places they are at the breaking point.

Why can't you acknowledge the truth of this pandemic? How many people have to die needlessly?

Bill

 

Bill, if that is your real name, all I said was that they should be able to make their own decision on the vaccine without getting fired. If they are at the breaking point, i would like to afford them that grace to not have to lose their job over it. if they are at the breaking point, then they should not be fired from already understaffed and overworked healthcare facilities. if hospitals want to make it a requirement of new hires, fine. but let's not fire people who worked this whole time, to the breaking point, who elect not to have it now. if no nurses are getting fired for not taking the vaccine, if i am just making that up, then i will apologize for denying reality.

[BronzeTurtle]

1 minute ago, prairiewindmomma said:

So, you have confidence in your vaccine, which makes you more confident going in to needed medical procedures, but you don't want your medical professional to feel pressure to also be vaccinated? 

36% of all people who get covid don't develop antibodies from their infection.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article

65% of people who had a milder case of covid lost all antibodies by the 60 day mark post-infection.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article

I think I don't have much confidence in natural immunity in unvaccinated persons based on those studies. I would feel better about someone who is vaccinated, and who has had boosters at appropriate intervals caring for me.

But my vaccine works. So I don't particularly worry about the unvaccinated and their antibodies. Antibodies don't tell me much anyhow once the initial production of them has passed and my body relies on memory immune cells. No one is going to have antibodies indefinitely, vaxxed or non.

 

But yeah, my vaccine works so I don't feel the need to pressure someone else to have it in order for mine to do its thing, especially if they've had covid. That's why I got vaccinated, lol.

[Spy Car]

16 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Bill, if that is your real name, all I said was that they should be able to make their own decision on the vaccine without getting fired. If they are at the breaking point, i would like to afford them that grace to not have to lose their job over it. if they are at the breaking point, then they should not be fired from already understaffed and overworked healthcare facilities. if hospitals want to make it a requirement of new hires, fine. but let's not fire people who worked this whole time, to the breaking point, who elect not to have it now. if no nurses are getting fired for not taking the vaccine, if i am just making that up, then i will apologize for denying reality.

You think I'm making up my name? LOL.

You got me. My real name is William.

Being vaccinated should be a condition of employment. Especially in public health settings. People needing medical care should not be in fear for their lives that going into a hospital or doctor's office will caused them to be exposed to Covid by unvaccinated personale.

If there are ways to show a healthcare worker has natural immunity that matches vaccination, I'd accommodate that if the science supports it. I believe that full protection requires at least one dose (beyond natural immunity). I'd also accept that if the science supports it.

Bill

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Spy Car

[KSera]

1 hour ago, BronzeTurtle said:

dealing with the bullet points in order:

--You responded to me responding to spycar who said exactly that. my original reply to him was dealing with that premise. if you don't agree with him, then that's fine but that's what I was responding to. so it doesn't make sense for you to respond to my questions to him and then claim you never said anything like that. I never said you did or tried to attribute his views to you except where I thought you were responding to me to agree with him. clear as mud?

Okay. Your response was in reply to my post (quoting it), so it looked like you were responding to me, and that's what I was responding to.

--What other groups of healthy people should be kept from going into various places? Insert any group besides unvaccinated and try to make the argument that you aren't keeping them out of public, just telling them they can't do a few things that aren't essential. it isn't reasonable in a free society. quarantining sick people is reasonable. if you want to mandate everyone get the vax because it's just that important, then that is a fight to have, i think. making a group of people persona non grata in various proposed ways is not good even in a pandemic. if it is, we might as well go back to having colonies and camps to put people into.

The problem is not knowing who is or isn't healthy. We do the same thing with unvaccinated kids during outbreaks of measles. They can't go to school (and that's more essential than a restaurant or a play. I would totally support a rule of either vaccination or negative rapid test on entry for any of those non essential things (heck, I'd rather have everyone have a negative test on entry than do it based on vaccine status, frankly). None of us have lived during a pandemic like this, so naturally all this is new and seems strange, but things aren't normal during a pandemic.

--I have unvaccinated and elderly people in my life too. They also live normally. people can obviously do what they want. I do think there is something odd at play if vaccinated people live as if they are not vaccinated or as if the vaccine does not work. for awhile it made me really question if my vaccine would work given the way the most ardent pro-vaxxers talk online and such. but the data kind of led me another way.

That's obviously their and your prerogative. The elderly in my life want to live long past this, so want and appreciate the caution. Unfortunately, the elderly are the ones most likely to have breakthrough infections lead to hospitalization or death. Now that I'm vaccinated, I'm not longer worried that a Covid infection would made me severely ill, but I sure am still worried about my 80-something parents who are still super active and independent and should have a lot of years left if something like this doesn't get to them. Fortunately, they have just had boosters, so I think we'll be able to do some indoor visits over the next couple months. That is great timing with cooler weather and holidays approaching.

--if you, in general you, think of the unvaccinated as stupid (falling prey to misinformation), criminals (being likened to a drunk driver), racist, or willfully spreading disease then that is a form of contempt at the very least. if you personally don't think that, that's not what i'm talking about. these are all things i've read on this forum today. but if it's not you, then i'm clearly not talking about you in particular. I don't know how to make my thoughts more general than they are, but you seem to think every time I reply that I'm speaking of you personally. I'm talking about things that are very obviously damaging to society in general, ideas that are being stated here on this thread and elsewhere, not you that in particular are the one stating them.

I went back to look at the post I was responding to with these bullet points to see if maybe I had misinterpreted and you weren't actually talking to me, but I still got that impression. You quoted me and then replied using phrases like "you and others", though in one point you did clarify "you, general you." So, I promise I'm not trying to take things more personal than they are, but I am glad to hear you aren't actually ascribing all those things to me that I have never said or intimated.

 

(replies in italics above)

34 minutes ago, frogger said:

They have a narrative in their head that your ilk is just trying to take their freedoms. Most are not Nazi's or supremacists. They are people dealing with a very confusing time. They hear different info at different times and (especially the older generation) are not used to conflicting information. They don't know who to listen to.

Today, I'm calling a sweet older lady who refuses to vaccinate. She trusts the other sides narrative. She also is still caring for a young man she adopted from foster care. He is of Indian background and has disabilities that mean when she adopted him she would give up her WHOLE life. He is closing in on 30 but will never be able to live without some kind of assistance. Daily she works to make sure he lives a full life with outside hobbies and part time jobs though he will never drive.

Thanks for talking to people. My biggest frustration through all this is that people like the older lady you reference are being taken in by the false narrative, and then getting sick and too often dying from it 🙁. I'm upset because I don't want that to keep happening to people. You've got people like Alan West who have a big platform who get sick and get all the best medical care and recover and then go out and proclaim to people they should resist the vaccine and just get regeneron if they get sick. And then people follow that advice and they die. It's AWFUL and it's WRONG, and that's what makes me the most upset. It happens on a smaller scale with all the people spreading junk on Facebook and such.

20 minutes ago, frogger said:

Well, if you don't enforce laws they are simply not obeyed. We had a mask mandate and although more people masked there was a large percentage who just refused and went about their business anyway. If you don't enforce something, it is just words on paper. 

Really? That's so interesting. Here, mandates have worked incredibly well. Mask mandates have come and gone a couple times, depending on case numbers and variants, and each time, you saw the masks coming off when not required, and then right back on when required again. Mid-Summer, less than half the people in stores were wearing masks. By September when mandates were in place again. I never saw anyone without a mask inside, and still don't.

[Spy Car]

11 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

But my vaccine works. So I don't particularly worry about the unvaccinated and their antibodies. Antibodies don't tell me much anyhow once the initial production of them has passed and my body relies on memory immune cells. No one is going to have antibodies indefinitely, vaxxed or non.

 

But yeah, my vaccine works so I don't feel the need to pressure someone else to have it in order for mine to do its thing, especially if they've had covid. That's why I got vaccinated, lol.

The difference is that with high antibodies those who are exposed have a good chance of quashing the illness before they become contagious.

Those with breakthrough cases of Delta (unlike the original virus, as I understand it) who are relying on a memory immunity response develop infections in the upper respiratory system, and then become contagious.

That's why the antibody boosting "boosters" are important during this surge. We can dramatically cut transmission as well as reducing hospitalizations and death.

Too many people have died. We need to stop this pandemic. 

Bill

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Spy Car

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

So, you have confidence in your vaccine, which makes you more confident going in to needed medical procedures, but you don't want your medical professional to feel pressure to also be vaccinated? 

36% of all people who get covid don't develop antibodies from their infection.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article

65% of people who had a milder case of covid lost all antibodies by the 60 day mark post-infection.

https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/27/9/21-1042_article

I think I don't have much confidence in natural immunity in unvaccinated persons based on those studies. I would feel better about someone who is vaccinated, and who has had boosters at appropriate intervals caring for me.

I think there's a case to be made for people with prior infection to have an exemption if a blood test shows they have antibodies. Unfortunately, I think most people don't realize that a third of people who have Covid don't develop antibodies from it, so they would assume they are protected when they aren't. And of course, we also know that a shot in addition to prior infection induces much better protection. But if people don't want better protection and just want "enough" to get a pass, I'd support testing for that. Not that anyone asked me, lol.

[prairiewindmomma]

15 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

But my vaccine works.

Well, it does, but it doesn't. Pfizer's efficacy drops from 88% to 47% after 6 months. 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-drops-after-6-months-study-2021-10-04/

I think about it like birth control.  You may think you're protected with one partner using it, but your odds of not having a baby go up dramatically when both partners do. 

If you are at 47% or lower efficacy because you had your shot 6 months ago and you're unmasked with a dentist who has covid in your face for an hour while you get a filling.....I'm not feeling so awesome about the odds of you not being sick at the end of that encounter.

I'd feel a lot better if both people in the room were vaccinated, and boostered at appropriate intervals, as I mentioned above.

 

[frogger]

23 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Bill, if that is your real name, all I said was that they should be able to make their own decision on the vaccine without getting fired. If they are at the breaking point, i would like to afford them that grace to not have to lose their job over it. if they are at the breaking point, then they should not be fired from already understaffed and overworked healthcare facilities. if hospitals want to make it a requirement of new hires, fine. but let's not fire people who worked this whole time, to the breaking point, who elect not to have it now. if no nurses are getting fired for not taking the vaccine, if i am just making that up, then i will apologize for denying reality.

32 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Not a bit. Employers can make sure workers are vaccinated. Businesses open to the public can do the same when admitting patrons.

All this is happening now. 

If a few out-of-control individuals get themselves jailed, they will have no one to blame but themselves. Otherwise proof of vaccinations is no big hurdle.

Bill

 

 

I absolutely think that hospitals and nursing homes who are working with many at risk patients should be allowed to require vaccination. Freedom to live is different than freedom to have a specific job! 

I don't think we should demand businesses in general become police officers. This put many low wage workers at risk.

My DHs company has done well but their situation is so much easier since most employees can work from home. They didn't fire anyone but you were only allowed back at the office last summer if you were vaccinated. I think businesses should be allowed to have employee dress code and mask rules and vaccination standards, I just think making them societies police officers is dangerous. 

 

 

[Rosie_0801]

19 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Too many people have died. We need to stop this pandemic. 

Bill

 

Which won't be achieved by you being continuously abrasive on the internet. 

I don't know what kind of kowtowing you need from us all to feel heard, but you have been heard, many times.
 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Which won't be achieved by you being continuously abrasive on the internet. 

I don't know what kind of kowtowing you need from us all to feel heard, but you have been heard, many times.
 

This is a "Chat" sub-forum. And we have very different notions of what is "abrasive."

I think enabling death is abrasive. You?

Bill

[Rosie_0801]

2 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

This is a "Chat" sub-forum. And we have very different notions of what is "abrasive."

I think enabling death is abrasive. You?

Bill

I think we need a mediator.

[BronzeTurtle]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Well, it does, but it doesn't. Pfizer's efficacy drops from 88% to 47% after 6 months. 

https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizerbiontech-covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-drops-after-6-months-study-2021-10-04/

I think about it like birth control.  You may think you're protected with one partner using it, but your odds of not having a baby go up dramatically when both partners do. 

If you are at 47% or lower efficacy because you had your shot 6 months ago and you're unmasked with a dentist who has covid in your face for an hour while you get a filling.....I'm not feeling so awesome about the odds of you not being sick at the end of that encounter.

I'd feel a lot better if both people in the room were vaccinated, and boostered at appropriate intervals, as I mentioned above.

 

oh, so we're not talking about avoiding severe disease, hospitalization, death? we're talking about avoiding infection entirely? like if it gets in your nose, it doesn't infect you to the point of being detectable? yeah, i'm not worried about that.  my vaccine works to keep me from getting seriously ill, much like a flu shot. 47% is about on par for that. I mean, great if I don't get infected, but I've always assumed I'm going to. covid is going to be around forever now and I don't think i can possibly avoid infection or make sure everyone around me is getting shots every six months or whatever.

So yes, my vaccine works, and in such a way that i don't worry about getting infected, being around unvaccinated people. That's the whole reason I got it. Why else would i go through all those side effects if I thought I still had to worry about getting seriously ill with covid from an unvaccinated person?? that doesn't make any sense to me.

of course odds are odds and both people vaxxed is better than one person, but I don't make decisions like that for other people unless i'm sleeping with them, in which case your birth control analogy is very apt, lol. I certainly don't want them to lose their job because they aren't boostered at appropriate intervals, which I don't even think we entirely know what those intervals would be.

no, i don't mind being in a room with unvaccinated people precisely because my vaccine works to the extent that i need it to. if you're trying to convince me it doesn't, that's going to be a weird conversation with people who are vax hesitant, i gotta say.

 

(also, my dentists have always masked even pre-covid and i've been to the dentist pre-vaccine, so i guess that isn't a real huge concern with precautions)

[BronzeTurtle]

It tickles me that this thread is titled about being frustrated with people not vaccinating and then when I say my vaccine works, there is someone to debate me. Time is a flat circle, haha.

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, LMD said:

Personal attack removed

 

really? The one not accusing people of being nazis is deleted?

 

I made no such accusation.

Bill

[kiwik]

2 hours ago, frogger said:

When are you going to say what should actually be done? 

Oh, you are only capable of name calling, not problem solving. 

The only thing than can be done is to guilt people into behaving in a responsible way.  In times past that was done by shaming and shunning the person and by extension their family.  Either the family sorted it out or the person was ejected.  We haven't quite worked out a modern day equivalent. Maybe stocks in all public parks?

[BronzeTurtle]

32 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think there's a case to be made for people with prior infection to have an exemption if a blood test shows they have antibodies. Unfortunately, I think most people don't realize that a third of people who have Covid don't develop antibodies from it, so they would assume they are protected when they aren't. And of course, we also know that a shot in addition to prior infection induces much better protection. But if people don't want better protection and just want "enough" to get a pass, I'd support testing for that. Not that anyone asked me, lol.

Except antibodies wane in everyone right? it's immune memory cells that are important, not antibodies. That's why we get two shots...to activtate the memory of the immune system from the first shot. I don't even think we have an easy blood test for things like t-cells and b-cells that fight off infections. I am fully vaccinated and probably wouldn't pass an antibody test, and yet my risk of placing any kind of burden on the medical system is very low according to how my vaccine works. plus with two shots i'm considered vaccinated for any and all mandates i know of even if i no longer have antibodies. i actually can't figure out why there is such focus on antibodies as those seem to be short lived and not durably protective according to the stuff i've read.