I feel so frustrated about people refusing vaccination…

[Melissa in Australia]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Again, there is no neutral choice. By not requiring vaccination, those that are vaccinated (or have medical contraindications) are being restricted in what they can do. Why should the decision making be in the favor of the people who are making a public health emergency worse?

But they still will be restricted in what they can do. The vaccine does not stop people contracting or spreading covid- just reduces the chances by a bit

 

[Frances]

30 minutes ago, SlowRiver said:

This kind of argument gets used for a lot of things, many of which make the idea of autonomy or rights pretty meaningless. If we aren't willing to force people to vaccinate, why? If we are going to try and force them indirectly, by making it so uncomfortable for them they can't function in society, or can't work, I'd suggest we don't really believe in the principle at all.

People have been quite open that mandates aren't just about directly protecting people, they are about applying pressure. That's a problematic mindset.

At least in my state, there’s pretty much nothing an unvaccinated person is not allowed to do in society with the exception of a very, very small number of arts events and restaurants asking for proof of vaccination. As for working, while it’s true that some workers are covered by mandates, the religious exemption is here pretty much a free for all exemption (you don’t even have to be religious) and is being very widely used and abused, unless you work for a healthcare organization that already requires other vaccinations. Then there appears to be true examination of claims and prior vaccination history.

So I’d say that at least in my very blue state, unvaccinated people still have lots of autonomy and rights when it comes to living in society and working. 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Frances

[Frances]

9 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

But they still will be restricted in what they can do. The vaccine does not stop people contracting or spreading covid- just reduces the chances by a bit

 

But it also greatly reduces the chances of hospitalization and death, thus greatly reducing the likelihood of healthcare system overwhelm. Has Australia dealt with that like many areas of the US have?

[wathe]

25 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

But they still will be restricted in what they can do. The vaccine does not stop people contracting or spreading covid- just reduces the chances by a bit

 

Not by a bit.  By a lot.

Both my personal experience (those coming through my ED with covid, with one exception, have all been unvaxxed**.  The exception was an immune compromised cancer patient on active treatment) and the literature* back this up.  Vaccination reduces infection and transmission by a lot.

*CDC science brief from mid-september with a summary of studies.

** ETA meaning since vaccination was widespread; June or so.

Edited October 14, 2021 by wathe

[KSera]

14 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

But they still will be restricted in what they can do. The vaccine does not stop people contracting or spreading covid- just reduces the chances by a bit

 

Well, by a lot, but still, yes, no one should be just living life like there wasn’t a pandemic right now. 

3 minutes ago, Frances said:

But it also greatly reduces the chances of hospitalization and death, thus greatly reducing the likelihood of healthcare system overwhelm. Has Australia dealt with that like many areas of the US have?

Based on a video I just saw from an Australian virus scientist, that’s starting to happen. Lines of ambulances outside Monash Medical Center in Victoria. Based on their rates though, I can’t imagine it’s anything like it has been here. 

[Ausmumof3]

24 minutes ago, KSera said:

Well, by a lot, but still, yes, no one should be just living life like there wasn’t a pandemic right now. 

Based on a video I just saw from an Australian virus scientist, that’s starting to happen. Lines of ambulances outside Monash Medical Center in Victoria. Based on their rates though, I can’t imagine it’s anything like it has been here. 

A little bit, but our health systems are weaker at the outset, from what I can tell. Ambulance ramping is common in my state even without Covid. At the moment, even though we are complaining about things, we still have pretty strict restrictions in the states with outbreaks I guess, relative to the rest of the world. 

[LMD]

from what I can see, there's been 945 covid deaths in Victoria total. It looks like influenza deaths were 136 in 2019 and 75 in 2020-21, just for comparison. 

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

On 10/12/2021 at 12:44 PM, BronzeTurtle said:

<snip>

I do think there is some inconsistency in forcing people to a point of personal suffering to get the vaccine. It's for your health so we are going to take away your job and ability to operate in society unless you do it seems to be rife with logical fallacies plus the fact that you can make pretty much anyone do pretty much anything if they feel desperate enough. that doesn't mean it's good to push people into a place of desparation so they will do what you (general) think is best for them. It worries me that people think this is a legitimate use of government force (in places where vaccine proof is required to go inside, etc.). It definitely goes against what I know of to be optimum public health strategy even in pandemic times. It is very reminisent of how people, including kids and hemophiliacs, were treated during the aids crisis. 

I also am weirded out by the idea that you can't have a titer or antibody test instead of a vaccine to satisfy any of these requirements, especially now that we know so much more than we did both about immunity from covid + transmission ability of vaccinated persons. It just seems to be brute forcing the vaccine when I think there are other scientific approaches that would be more inclusive and give back some trust to people who think they had covid, might be worried about side effects (esp. if they are male and younger) and they don't understand why they would be forced out of work for not getting a vaccine for a disease they already had when they had to work thru the pandemic before vaccines were available.

That to say I think there are better public health strategies than ostracization, causing pain of job loss, sweeping unflexible mandates, etc.

+1

The vaccine-hesitant people we know locally do not at all fit the caricature of selfish, angry, ignorant. They have rational concerns about risk-vs-benefit (especially for specific demographic groups - those with previous adverse vaccine reactions, remote workers with natural immunity, etc). 

Forcing people out of work who served sacrificially through the entire pandemic and now have both natural immunity AND a greater risk of vaccine complications is not . . . science.

There's a lot of middle ground between the polarized "sides" of the debate, and the inability (refusal?) to have a nuanced national conversation about a nuanced situation is devastating. We are better than this.  

[Elizabeth86]

On 10/11/2021 at 10:14 PM, Katy said:

I read yesterday that 140,000 American children have been orphaned by Covid.   So needless.

Oh my goodness, that is heartbreaking. Why my husband thinks this couldn’t be him, I have no idea.

[Elizabeth86]

On 10/12/2021 at 11:08 AM, Faith-manor said:

The military thing just blows my mind. A local marine veteran is a very vocal, anti-vax person a the school. This same person has said that he had typhoid vaccine, yellow fever, anthrax, and malaria pills due to where he spent some of his career. 🤔 😲 He doesn't speak out against any of those.

As someone who had to take typhoid vaccine back in the mid-80's because of a region I was traveling to, I can say without hesitation that my Moderna vaccine, for side effects, was absolute CAKE WALK compared to Typhus vax!

The cognitive dissonance is something I can't quite wrap my brain around.

Right? Dh had all the things when he was a Marine. All our kids are vaccinated. Heck, he used to get the flu shot and I never did. Now all of a sudden he’s anti vaccine.

[Amira]

18 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

Wow.  That's a frame, isn't it.

 

True Story:

In the early stages of this horror show, whose darkness happened to first descend upon us just as Passover began back in March 2020, I received it through the frame of a plague, that God sent upon us, to teach us.  (This is metaphor, I am not a literalist, but I take my metaphors quite seriously.)  And I spent a fair amount of time -- suddenly, I *had* a lot of unexpected time -- trying to work out what lessons we were meant to learn

I expected the vaccine development to take 2-3 YEARS.  (Based on my husband's biotech experience) I expected any vaccine to be only ~50+% effective, as the regular flu vaccines often are and as the FDA's initially announced benchmarks were; which would, still, dampen spread but would, still, enable the plague to persist for years.  When the mRNA vaccines came through at Warp Speed, less than a year from the plague's descent, hitting 90+% benchmarks, I received that as miraculous.  (Within my tradition, miracles are, often, a partnership between God and humans.) 

Deliverance.

Except, as it turned out: Not.  Because we are a stiff-necked people.  Because we quarrel on how to read the signs.  Because we spurn the manna meant to sustain us.  Because when times are fraught with hardship and uncertainty we turn on each other.  Every time, now as then.

So 18 months into this the United States, with all its wealth and technology and logistics capacity, is in per capita terms among the worst-affected nations on earth.  More than 1/500 of us are now dead of the disease; more than 13% of us have been confirmed to have had it (and many more left untested & confirmed); with an unknown but evidently significant percentage of those suffering long term effects.  And the bills are not yet paid: thousands of families and hundreds of hospitals will be left struggling under financial duress for years; the cost to state and federal governments will suppress fiscal room to maneuver for decades to come.  Yet *we* are the lucky ones, with more vaccines available than arms willing to receive them.  No nation on earth has more COVID blessings than we do, yet we're spurning the gift.  We are -- in the actual, arithmetic (and also: biblical) meaning of the term, decimated.

What's the lesson at *this* point, then? 

By slow degrees - this is not the worldview I used to hold, at all -- my frame has shifted, from God trying to teach us how to act collectively, to care for and protect each other; and also to use our unique capacity for science and data and medicine that we alone among the species have, to manage exogenous shocks like this; and also maybe to slow down, to pry our eyes off of flickering screens and cherish IRL physical contact with our IRL families and loved ones...

... to something more like slow-mo Rapture.  Where those who trust in horses are naturally selected from those who trust in chariots; where those are sure they are ready to meet their Maker have an easy route to do so; where those who are sure that God only cares about the individual rather than the collective whole of creation, have the chance to test that hypothesis.  (Again this is metaphor, I am not a literalist, but I take metaphor even more seriously today, than I did 18 months ago.)

Something about the Rapture metaphor that has always struck me has been: it is not actually clear who's the Select.  One perspective -- that of its adherents -- is that God *takes* the Select, and there's a Mad Max horror show left behind.  But another possible way to look at the same imagined scenario is that once all those who want to be taken, are taken, and leave the earth.... the ones left would be the ones who believe in collective action like universal health care, who cherish creation and so hug the trees and protect the air, who work however haltingly toward Social Justice.  So *maybe* the remnant Left Behind would look like Mad Max; but alternatively, perhaps it would look more like Canada.  And who knows, perhaps God *wants* us to look more like Canada.  That is the Noah story.  (Again, metaphor.)

What I've always liked about the Canada take on Rapture is, everybody's happy.  Those taken believe they're the Select... and so too, do those left behind.  Great Divorce, except without the (human) certainty about (divine) Truth.

 

And as I stare at the bolded I'm struck: perhaps that's a far more succinct, and less metaphoric, way to state the same thing.

Pam, thank you.  This post made the entire thread worth wading through.

[Pawz4me]

6 hours ago, Frances said:

But it also greatly reduces the chances of hospitalization and death, thus greatly reducing the likelihood of healthcare system overwhelm. Has Australia dealt with that like many areas of the US have?

 

6 hours ago, wathe said:

Not by a bit.  By a lot.

Both my personal experience (those coming through my ED with covid, with one exception, have all been unvaxxed**.  The exception was an immune compromised cancer patient on active treatment) and the literature* back this up.  Vaccination reduces infection and transmission by a lot.

*CDC science brief from mid-september with a summary of studies.

** ETA meaning since vaccination was widespread; June or so.

Purely anecdotal report from my little part of NC. I'm always interested in what my own PCP, whose practice is at the most a five minute drive from my house, who treats people in this community, has to say. And I saw her last week. This is a busy primary care practice--one doc and six PAs, plus an evening/weekend urgent care staff. This area has been hit hard by Covid, and especially by Delta. For many weeks our county case numbers were sky high, positivity rate hovered close to 20 percent. My PA said their entire practice has (not surprisingly) seen tons of Covid patients and that they've had to (not surprisingly) send a lot of them on to the hospital. But she said they have not had to send a single fully vaccinated person to the hospital. Not one. She said some fully vaxxed people are needing antibiotics and/or steroids, but are still recovering well within the expected time frame.

[Spy Car]

10 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

But they still will be restricted in what they can do. The vaccine does not stop people contracting or spreading covid- just reduces the chances by a bit

 

By a "bit?" LOL.

The fundamental dishonesty of your position knows no bounds.

And you call me "unhinged?"

Bill

 

 

 

[AbcdeDooDah]

4 hours ago, Elizabeth86 said:

 

Oops 

 

Nm

Edited October 14, 2021 by AbcdeDooDah

[DawnM]

I just saw that a friend of a friend passed away last night from Covid.   She was in her 40s with no underlying conditions.

I went to her FB page and is is all anti-mask, anti-vaccine, pro-ivermectin only protocol stuff.

It just makes me shake my head.

[SKL]

Perhaps there is a bigger lesson in the way "othering" makes some people less objective and rational, leading to choices that are not ideal for either the othered group or the group doing the othering.

[Starr]

35 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I just saw that a friend of a friend passed away last night from Covid.   She was in her 40s with no underlying conditions.

I went to her FB page and is is all anti-mask, anti-vaccine, pro-ivermectin only protocol stuff.

It just makes me shake my head.

I am so sorry!

[Scarlett]

My unvax’d cousin in the Houston area is near death from Covid. I texted with her Sunday and she told me she had Covid. And that her taste and smell we’re not right. By Tuesday evening she was in ICU. This morning her sister Texted me and told me that they were taking her off life support at 10 AM. That was 30 minutes ago. I have not heard the latest. 

[Matryoshka]

34 minutes ago, SKL said:

Perhaps there is a bigger lesson in the way "othering" makes some people less objective and rational, leading to choices that are not ideal for either the othered group or the group doing the othering.

Super ironic that the anti-vax crowd, which has a huge Venn overlap with the White Christian Nationalist types who are anti-BLM, CRT, and anything that is remotely or even hints at 'diversity' (anyone not white and not their particular brand of 'Christianity') are now claiming they're the ones who are being 'othered'.  🙄

[SKL]

6 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Super ironic that the anti-vax crowd, which has a huge Venn overlap with the White Christian Nationalist types who are anti-BLM, CRT, and anything that is remotely or even hints at 'diversity' (anyone not white and not their particular brand of 'Christianity') are now claiming they're the ones who are being 'othered'.  🙄

Well actually a lot of them are not "white."

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DawnM said:

I just saw that a friend of a friend passed away last night from Covid.   She was in her 40s with no underlying conditions.

I went to her FB page and is is all anti-mask, anti-vaccine, pro-ivermectin only protocol stuff.

It just makes me shake my head.

This is what’s killin me. 
 

I had yet another call at the firm yesterday with a situation due to a person who just died of COVID in Sept. So two calls in five days, plus an existing client’s death. 

[BronzeTurtle]

13 hours ago, KSera said:

The Provincetown case study is a very specific set of circumstances that is very unlike what is happening in most of the country. It gave interesting information, but it's almost too bad that that is where our information about vaccinated breakthrough came from originally, because that is not going to generalize to most situations.

Yes, and that's why everyone should do everything they can to decrease that risk. Masking, avoiding unnecessary indoor exposures, vaccinating, etc, etc.

eta: I've seen a couple studies now indicating vaccinated people who are infected are less likely to spread than unvaccinated. I don't have time to track them all down right now, but here's a link about one that I was able to find quickly (this is good news, remember):

Vaccinated people are less likely to spread Covid, new research finds

 

I understand that vaccinated people are less likely to spread, by a lot. I was responding to spycar's specific situation of telling people who could spread a deadly disease to stay home, to not be in public spaces. If that is the standard, then that applies to vaccinated people as well, as well as masked people (unless in full PPE), it applies to almost everyone even if their chances of spread are greatly reduced. Spycar's scenario was spreading a deadly disease, which everyone at this point is capable of. That means there's no limiting principle on who should stay home (oh, you only have a 30% of spreading a deadly disease!) if people are simply viewed as human vectors for covid. It doesn't make sense to view unvaccinated as vectors of disease and vaccinated people as non-vectors. Aside from taking away everyone's human dignity, it's a false premise and an arbitrary line if we're looking to save even just one or a dozen or a hundred people from getting covid. 

 

13 hours ago, KSera said:

Unvaccinated people are also most likely to spread while they are asymptomatic. We’ve been over that many times and it’s a red herring here. Vaccinated people are much less likely to have or spread Covid. 
 

In the case of the drunk person, more often than not, the drunk person is going to make it home without causing an accident. That doesn’t make it okay for them to take that risk. And sober people cause accidents sometimes as well, doesn’t make them as dangerous as drunk people. 

It's not a red herring. of course vaccinated people are less likely to spread but the chance does not go to 0. We have to evaluate what happens when there is a not 0 chance of spreading this deadly disease because that is what everyone is saying should curtail employment, access to public spaces, etc. 

Yes, the drunk driving metaphor exactly illustrates the problem. You (or spycar, or whomever) are talking about healthy people existing in public the same as someone intentionally operating a 3,000lb vehicle after impairing themselves. Drunk driving is a criminal act. if a cop can't stop you from driving drunk, if he pulls you over and you don't comply with his orders, he has justification to use deadly force to make you comply. So the unvaccinated person as a drunk driver. This is criminalizing just existing as a human. We put drunk drivers in jail even if they don't hurt anyone! We physically take away their livelihood and freedom of movement. A DUI can cost upwards of 5 figures in fines and court fees. That is what people are talking about doing to unvaccinated people who simply exist. That is forced vaccination, even if you sugar coat it by saying you're not for forced vaccination. If you want to treat unvaccinated people as drunk drivers you are for cops physically restraining someone and taking them to jail to physically get them to comply with a law. You're saying a healthy human person can't just exist in public because we don't know if they will kill someone or not and equating them with someone who can be jailed for breaking the law.

so it's not a red herring at all. we're talking about healthy people who don't want a vaccine and stripping them of autonomy because of a non-zero risk, when none of us have a non-zero risk of spread, or at least won't indefinitely.

I am going to be depressed by the responses to this I can already tell

[BronzeTurtle]

the trouble with anecdotes is there are also a ton, statistically way more, of those anti-vax, early treatment types who get covid and it's no big deal for them. And they post as much on social media. So for every one story of a 40yo who dies or gets hospitalized, they are probably outnumbered by a lot of people (uh, far from just white people despite from what someone said up thread, wow.) who are able to say they had covid and are fine and their treatment plan worked. everyone thinks they're going to be in the group that is okay, if not sick for awhile, and statistically they are most likely right.

[SKL]

Yeah I have a relative who never leaves her house.  She isn't vaccinated.  The Spycars of the world consider her the worst evil.  He would love to see an example made of her by law or by nature or both.  Thankfully she does not read the crap people post on the internet.

[cintinative]

I'm late, but can I just comment on the OSHA thing? 

OSHA covers annual physicals for employees in certain professions. For example, when I was working, I was required to have an annual physical because of the nature of my job.  If you have a heart attack at work and your work does not call the EMS for you, OSHA will cite you for that. I had a client where the worker was sent to the ER, they sent him back, he had a heart attack at the plant, and they were still cited.  There are health implications for OSHA that many people who don't work in a plant do not realize. 

https://www.osha.gov/workers/employer-responsibilities 

 

[maize]

29 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Super ironic that the anti-vax crowd, which has a huge Venn overlap with the White Christian Nationalist types who are anti-BLM, CRT, and anything that is remotely or even hints at 'diversity' (anyone not white and not their particular brand of 'Christianity') are now claiming they're the ones who are being 'othered'.  🙄

Do you not think othering of those who are reluctant to vaccinate has happened in this thread?

Anytime we resort not to discussing issues and differing understanding and ideas but to condemnatory, belittling, and mocking characterization of people--especially large groups of people--we engage in othering. 

It is an effective method of reinforcing solidarity with our own in groups, but it does nothing to further discussion or understanding or persuasion across groups.

[OH_Homeschooler]

18 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah I have a relative who never leaves her house.  She isn't vaccinated.  The Spycars of the world consider her the worst evil.  He would love to see an example made of her by law or by nature or both.  Thankfully she does not read the crap people post on the internet.

I'm not Spycar but I suppose I am one of the Spycars of the world. To me, the worst evil in this nightmare are the fully vaccinated influencers using misinformation to convince people that vaccination is harmful. Is your hermit relative spreading misinformation, or is she just quietly not vaccinated? Because there's a big difference. 

[KSera]

25 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

I understand that vaccinated people are less likely to spread, by a lot. I was responding to spycar's specific situation of telling people who could spread a deadly disease to stay home, to not be in public spaces. If that is the standard, then that applies to vaccinated people as well, as well as masked people (unless in full PPE), it applies to almost everyone even if their chances of spread are greatly reduced. Spycar's scenario was spreading a deadly disease, which everyone at this point is capable of. That means there's no limiting principle on who should stay home (oh, you only have a 30% of spreading a deadly disease!) if people are simply viewed as human vectors for covid. It doesn't make sense to view unvaccinated as vectors of disease and vaccinated people as non-vectors. Aside from taking away everyone's human dignity, it's a false premise and an arbitrary line if we're looking to save even just one or a dozen or a hundred people from getting covid. 

 

It's not a red herring. of course vaccinated people are less likely to spread but the chance does not go to 0. We have to evaluate what happens when there is a not 0 chance of spreading this deadly disease because that is what everyone is saying should curtail employment, access to public spaces, etc. 

Yes, the drunk driving metaphor exactly illustrates the problem. You (or spycar, or whomever) are talking about healthy people existing in public the same as someone intentionally operating a 3,000lb vehicle after impairing themselves. Drunk driving is a criminal act. if a cop can't stop you from driving drunk, if he pulls you over and you don't comply with his orders, he has justification to use deadly force to make you comply. So the unvaccinated person as a drunk driver. This is criminalizing just existing as a human. We put drunk drivers in jail even if they don't hurt anyone! We physically take away their livelihood and freedom of movement. A DUI can cost upwards of 5 figures in fines and court fees. That is what people are talking about doing to unvaccinated people who simply exist. That is forced vaccination, even if you sugar coat it by saying you're not for forced vaccination. If you want to treat unvaccinated people as drunk drivers you are for cops physically restraining someone and taking them to jail to physically get them to comply with a law. You're saying a healthy human person can't just exist in public because we don't know if they will kill someone or not and equating them with someone who can be jailed for breaking the law.

so it's not a red herring at all. we're talking about healthy people who don't want a vaccine and stripping them of autonomy because of a non-zero risk, when none of us have a non-zero risk of spread, or at least won't indefinitely.

I am going to be depressed by the responses to this I can already tell

First, to the red herring thing. What I was calling a red herring was people repeatedly saying being vaccinated doesn’t help others because vaccinated people can still get Covid and transmit it, but never acknowledging the odds of that are dramatically reduced when someone is vaccinated. 
 

On the drunk driver analogy, it was an analogy, not a totally equivalent situation. No one is saying unvaccinated people should be locked up for existing or using deadly force if they try to get away (??). The point was as an example of how we have laws to protect other people from drunk drivers, even though non drunk people can also cause accidents and even though the drunk driver may not cause an accident. 
 

I have never made a single argument that vaccinated people should not be treated as a potential risk as well. The risk is much lower but it’s there. I haven’t eaten in a restaurant or gone to any indoor venue or done any recreational shopping during this, even though I’m vaccinated. We had a very brief period of visiting indoors with vaccinated family in early Summer, but then delta arrived, and my vaccinated extended family is back to outdoor visits with masks. So, you might have the wrong idea about vaccinated people thinking other vaccinated people carry no risk. But given a forced choice between being indoors with someone who is vaccinated or someone who is not right now, I’m going to go with the vaccinated. And I know people have businesses they want to be able to stay afloat, so having the safer option of only vaccinated people inside nonessential businesses right now seems a good compromise to allow them to operate while drastically decreasing virus spread.

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

35 minutes ago, SKL said:

Yeah I have a relative who never leaves her house.  She isn't vaccinated.  The Spycars of the world consider her the worst evil.  He would love to see an example made of her by law or by nature or both.  Thankfully she does not read the crap people post on the internet.

No. If people refuse to vaccinate they should stay home until the public health threat passes.

I have no problem with that.

Once again, your presentation is fundamentally dishonest.

Bill

[KSera]

11 minutes ago, OH_Homeschooler said:

To me, the worst evil in this nightmare are the fully vaccinated influencers using misinformation to convince people that vaccination is harmful.

This has been heavy in my mind the last couple days, because it seems to me this aspect is getting worse and not better? I was trying to think why I see so much of this (people who have protected themselves by being fully vaccinated, but who seem to act as anti-vax apologists in public, with the effect of discouraging others from being vaccinated/supporting them to remain unvaccinated). I could only come up with one theory so far, but it’s political. It is interesting though to ponder what the motivation is. 

[bolt.]

1 minute ago, KSera said:

This has been heavy in my mind the last couple days, because it seems to me this aspect is getting worse and not better? I was trying to think why I see so much of this (people who have protected themselves by being fully vaccinated, but who seem to act as anti-vax apologists in public, with the effect of discouraging others from being vaccinated/supporting them to remain unvaccinated). I could only come up with one theory so far, but it’s political. It is interesting though to ponder what the motivation is. 

I suspect the motivation is monetary. Monetary motivation for irrational behaviour is always a good bet. (Unless it's political, as you said.)

[prairiewindmomma]

I've often wondered why we haven't seen more footage of what being inside of an ICU covid unit looks like.  I realize there are privacy concerns, but I suspect if people watched more procedures of what it looked like---what the actual care is---and how many of those patients are unvaccinated compared to those who have been vaccinated, if sentiment would change.I think if people saw what the pressure sores, the bipap or ECMO, the feeding tubes, the neuro deficits, the stillborn babies from the placenta clotting off.....like if they actually SAW what that looks like if it could cut through the disinformation a bit.

I've had friends and extended family who have been on the more severe side of covid (and some on the milder side) and what I find so interesting is that as the anti-vaxxers become ill, they hide their experiences and don't talk about it.  I don't know that everyone in my circle of people I know knows that so and so has had lingering heart issues and has had to give up jogging, or that "Steve" is lugging around an oxygen tank and wearing a c-pap at night now, or that "Sara" has so much brain fogginess she's worried about losing her job.  "Karen" used up all of her vacation time at work because she couldn't get out of bed for 2.5 weeks.

It's not fear mongering. It's looking at some of the actual things that are happening to actual people.  

-----

On a side note, it's the rare person who never leaves their house.  If they are at the point medically where they aren't leaving the house, that also usually means that healthcare is coming to them.  It's the rare individual who never sees the dentist or the doctor, who never leaves to buy new shoes after a couple of years, who never sees family.  If they aren't going out, people come to them, and that's still exposure.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

4 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I've often wondered why we haven't seen more footage of what being inside of an ICU covid unit looks like.  I realize there are privacy concerns, but I suspect if people watched more procedures of what it looked like---what the actual care is---and how many of those patients are unvaccinated compared to those who have been vaccinated, if sentiment would change.I think if people saw what the pressure sores, the bipap or ECMO, the feeding tubes, the neuro deficits, the stillborn babies from the placenta clotting off.....like if they actually SAW what that looks like if it could cut through the disinformation a bit.

I've had friends and extended family who have been on the more severe side of covid (and some on the milder side) and what I find so interesting is that as the anti-vaxxers become ill, they hide their experiences and don't talk about it.  I don't know that everyone in my circle of people I know knows that so and so has had lingering heart issues and has had to give up jogging, or that "Steve" is lugging around an oxygen tank and wearing a c-pap at night now, or that "Sara" has so much brain fogginess she's worried about losing her job.  "Karen" used up all of her vacation time at work because she couldn't get out of bed for 2.5 weeks.

It's not fear mongering. It's looking at some of the actual things that are happening to actual people.  

-----

On a side note, it's the rare person who never leaves their house.  If they are at the point medically where they aren't leaving the house, that also usually means that healthcare is coming to them.  It's the rare individual who never sees the dentist or the doctor, who never leaves to buy new shoes after a couple of years, who never sees family.  If they aren't going out, people come to them, and that's still exposure.

 

Unfortunately, actual footage in the past was ridiculed as being made up.  You really can't win. . . . 

Someone I know (not vaxxed) now has Covid.  He can't figure out how he got it.  But I saw him unmasked in small groups.  And his mask when he does wear it, is like of  like a bandanna, flapping open at the bottom.  All I can think is that somehow he (like many people) thought that if he knew everyone in the group, that somehow they were immune from carrying, spreading and getting Covid. 

As far as my emotions towards him :  I wish him well.  I hope that he comes through this ok.  But I also feel frustrated because I had (mentally) predicted this outcome months ago.  He has a lot of underlying conditions and so does his daughter who just recovered from leukemia and his elderly mother-in-law who lives with them.  So I fear for them as well even as I pray for the best outcome.

[BronzeTurtle]

26 minutes ago, KSera said:

First, to the red herring thing. What I was calling a red herring was people repeatedly saying being vaccinated doesn’t help others because vaccinated people can still get Covid and transmit it, but never acknowledging the odds of that are dramatically reduced when someone is vaccinated. 
 

On the drunk driver analogy, it was an analogy, not a totally equivalent situation. No one is saying unvaccinated people should be locked up for existing or using deadly force if they try to get away (??). The point was as an example of how we have laws to protect other people from drunk drivers, even though non drunk people can also cause accidents and even though the drunk driver may not cause an accident. 
 

I have never made a single argument that vaccinated people should not be treated as a potential risk as well. The risk is much lower but it’s there. I haven’t eaten in a restaurant or gone to any indoor venue or done any recreational shopping during this, even though I’m vaccinated. We had a very brief period of visiting indoors with vaccinated family in early Summer, but then delta arrived, and my vaccinated extended family is back to outdoor visits with masks. So, you might have the wrong idea about vaccinated people thinking other vaccinated people carry no risk. But given a forced choice between being indoors with someone who is vaccinated or someone who is not right now, I’m going to go with the vaccinated. And I know people have businesses they want to be able to stay afloat, so having the safer option of only vaccinated people inside nonessential businesses right now seems a good compromise to allow them to operate while drastically decreasing virus spread.

 

 

 

Okay. I acknowledge the odds are dramatically reduced. I have done so throughout this conversation. I don't know any other way to say that. I'm talking about the idea that people should not leave their homes if there is a risk of them spreading covid. that applies to any human person, or their pets for that matter, lol. so the logical end point of saying people shouldn't leave the house unvaccinated because they could spread a deadly disease, that applies to me, the vaccinated even if as I have acknowledged many times my chances are lower. and how do you keep healthy but unvaccinated people from being out in public except by physical force? let's say the requirement is for a public library or some such. when there is someone acting up in our local library (which happens quite a bit with the homeless population) the police are called and they are physically forced out of the building. if you, in general you, think physical force shouldn't be used to keep unvaccinated people out of the public, then there is no real teeth to any mandates passed. 

but here's the thing. I live normally since I got my vaccine. I have no idea who is vaccinated and who isn't out in public because I think my vaccine will work to protect me against the covid and all its variants (because the vaccine happens to be polyclonal againt the spike protein, as I understand the science). i don't act as if everyone is a possible human disease vector, at least not anymore than I did pre-covid. my vaccine works, and anyone in my sphere who wants a vaccine that works has been able to get one. anyone who is worried about their kids being around me has kept them in. anyone who has looked at the risk and decided its negligible for their kids compared to the value of socialization doesn't keep their kids in. if you would have told me that a vaccine with over 80% effectiveness against hospitalization and death for the most vulnerable, and that vaccine would be so available we'd be throwing doses away...if all that would mean that people were still going to be meeting outdoors only or avoiding indoor dining or whatever, i would not have believed you. if you would have told me a year ago someone could have reduced their risk by that much and still didn't want to go out without a mask I would have just laughed. So you and I are obviously coming from very different places here. I think my vaccine works and my neighbors vaccines work regardless of who I am out an about with or around. my goal is not to avoid covid infection because I think that is actually impossible short of never being indoors with people ever again in my lifetime. 

I still think the logical endpoints to the arguments that you and others are making are very, very dystopian even if you want to claim "no one is saying that." No one is saying a drunk driving analogy vis a vis covid means we want the unvaccinated jailed or physically forced into anything. we just think it means you might go out and hurt someone with your deliberate irresponsibility, but not that you should be physically kept from doing so. so what does that even mean? no one is saying that the person who is willfully spreading a deadly disease should be prevented from doing so in a physical way? I think the australian police would disagree with you there, specifically on the physical force part. they have used physical force to keep healthy people from being outside together because they could potentially spread covid. it's already happening in places.

 

the discussions here are downright  caricatures of people who are just people. are there weirdos online pedaling crap? yeah, well, okay there are, but spycar apparently follows people or gets news from somewhere that all the protesters in australia are neo-nazis, and someone else said it's mostly white supremacist types so it's not limited to just one facet of this issue. that news is coming from somewhere weird. someone just posted that they think money is involved in influencing people not to get vaxxed, which is hilarious because the "other side" says that big pharma is cashing in on the vaccines.  you all don't see how these are conspiracy theory roads as well? creating people you can hate so if you come across someone unvaccinated you can categorize them as unclean, racist, idiots, drunk drivers, murderers? there are whole hosts of people out there who are pro-vax and anti-mandates. they are just regular people who want to live their lives and let others live theirs. and somehow that sentiment is now anti-vax, white supremacy done for $$$? it's nuts and i thought people here would be sort of above that since it's an education board. oh well, the internet is the internet everywhere i suppose. 
 

[OH_Homeschooler]

29 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I've had friends and extended family who have been on the more severe side of covid (and some on the milder side) and what I find so interesting is that as the anti-vaxxers become ill, they hide their experiences and don't talk about it.  I don't know that everyone in my circle of people I know knows that so and so has had lingering heart issues and has had to give up jogging, or that "Steve" is lugging around an oxygen tank and wearing a c-pap at night now, or that "Sara" has so much brain fogginess she's worried about losing her job.  "Karen" used up all of her vacation time at work because she couldn't get out of bed for 2.5 weeks.

It's not fear mongering. It's looking at some of the actual things that are happening to actual people.  

I've seen FB posts about how so-and-so died of "double pneumonia." They will not admit the whole truth. Better stick to your guns, don't dare say something that might snap someone into reason and save a life!

 

19 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Someone I know (not vaxxed) now has Covid.  He can't figure out how he got it.  But I saw him unmasked in small groups.  And his mask when he does wear it, is like of  like a bandanna, flapping open at the bottom.  All I can think is that somehow he (like many people) thought that if he knew everyone in the group, that somehow they were immune from carrying, spreading and getting Covid. 

I follow someone on YouTube who caught Covid. His friend was sick but he'd had sinus surgery so they just assumed it was that. I imagine a lot of that is going on. You just cannot make those assumptions anymore!

Naturally, they didn't mask up around each other, I assume because of your suggested reasoning that if you know someone, they must be safe. The YouTuber recovered. A third friend caught it from him the first guy and died. 

[Spy Car]

1 hour ago, maize said:

Do you not think othering of those who are reluctant to vaccinate has happened in this thread?

Anytime we resort not to discussing issues and differing understanding and ideas but to condemnatory, belittling, and mocking characterization of people--especially large groups of people--we engage in othering. 

It is an effective method of reinforcing solidarity with our own in groups, but it does nothing to further discussion or understanding or persuasion across groups.

Every other day in this country alone we are losing more people to covid than we did in the 911 attacks.

If those who are refusing to mask and refusing to vaccinate and who are fueling illness and death and breaking the healthcare system due to their bad behaviors are feeling "othered," then I can't imaging a more appropriate feeling on their part (other than a deep sense of shame).

Bill

[BronzeTurtle]

47 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

I've often wondered why we haven't seen more footage of what being inside of an ICU covid unit looks like.  I realize there are privacy concerns, but I suspect if people watched more procedures of what it looked like---what the actual care is---and how many of those patients are unvaccinated compared to those who have been vaccinated, if sentiment would change.I think if people saw what the pressure sores, the bipap or ECMO, the feeding tubes, the neuro deficits, the stillborn babies from the placenta clotting off.....like if they actually SAW what that looks like if it could cut through the disinformation a bit.

I've had friends and extended family who have been on the more severe side of covid (and some on the milder side) and what I find so interesting is that as the anti-vaxxers become ill, they hide their experiences and don't talk about it.  I don't know that everyone in my circle of people I know knows that so and so has had lingering heart issues and has had to give up jogging, or that "Steve" is lugging around an oxygen tank and wearing a c-pap at night now, or that "Sara" has so much brain fogginess she's worried about losing her job.  "Karen" used up all of her vacation time at work because she couldn't get out of bed for 2.5 weeks.

It's not fear mongering. It's looking at some of the actual things that are happening to actual people.  

-----

On a side note, it's the rare person who never leaves their house.  If they are at the point medically where they aren't leaving the house, that also usually means that healthcare is coming to them.  It's the rare individual who never sees the dentist or the doctor, who never leaves to buy new shoes after a couple of years, who never sees family.  If they aren't going out, people come to them, and that's still exposure.

 

Because using worst case scenarios for any aspect of any possible disease would drive a person literally crazy? if everyone went around thinking that every worst case scenario of any given germ might befall them society would not be able to function. as it is, you have a majority of the population right now in many, many countries who have looked at those risks and decided to mitigate them with a vaccine or staying home or any number of things. but also there have been people all along, pre-vaccine, who had to go out and run things while those mitigations were happening. they had to live in spite of what was going on in icus and had to have the courage to do so in order to keep lights on, keep food on shelves. and many of them got the covid and had to deal with that too. 

 

focusing on worst case scenarios, even if they are real possibility, leads to crippling anxiety. it isn't good. and also usually doesn't work because teenagers still do drugs despite going through education programs in school, people ride bikes without helmets, they still eat tons of sugar, etc., etc. Scared straight usually isn't a real thing that works for a majority of people. heck, even people who experience bad outcomes first hand will often return to the vice or behavior that bit them.

Edited October 14, 2021 by BronzeTurtle

[Spryte]

36 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Unfortunately, actual footage in the past was ridiculed as being made up.  You really can't win. . . . 

Someone I know (not vaxxed) now has Covid.  He can't figure out how he got it.  But I saw him unmasked in small groups.  And his mask when he does wear it, is like of  like a bandanna, flapping open at the bottom.  All I can think is that somehow he (like many people) thought that if he knew everyone in the group, that somehow they were immune from carrying, spreading and getting Covid. 

As far as my emotions towards him :  I wish him well.  I hope that he comes through this ok.  But I also feel frustrated because I had (mentally) predicted this outcome months ago.  He has a lot of underlying conditions and so does his daughter who just recovered from leukemia and his elderly mother-in-law who lives with them.  So I fear for them as well even as I pray for the best outcome.

I see this “can’t figure out where we caught it” theme, too. Neighbor-friends have no idea. But they never masked and are out and about, have parties, etc. of course they don’t know! It could have been anywhere, any day.

The grandma that took care of their kids has Covid now, and even with her, they “can’t figure out where she caught it.” She was *at their house* caring for them, she called 911! She then took the very exposed kids to her house while both parents were in the hospital. No one ever masked. Ummm?

It’s willful ignorance.

[TCB]

17 hours ago, LMD said:

okay, fair enough

And I expect that many US citizens keep watch and speak out against those issues.

I think it’s fair to say that many of the people protesting against masks and vaccines, because of their human rights, are not the ones protesting or speaking out against the issues Sneezy mentioned.

[prairiewindmomma]

25 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

Because using worst case scenarios for any aspect of any possible disease would drive a person literally crazy? if everyone went around thinking that every worst case scenario of any given germ might befall them society would not be able to function. as it is, you have a majority of the population right now in many, many countries who have looked at those risks and decided to mitigate them with a vaccine or staying home or any number of things. but also there have been people all along, pre-vaccine, who had to go out and run things while those mitigations were happening. they had to live in spite of what was going on in icus and had to have the courage to do so in order to keep lights on, keep food on shelves. and many of them got the covid and had to deal with that too. 

 

focusing on worst case scenarios, even if they are real possibility, leads to crippling anxiety. it isn't good. and also usually doesn't work because teenagers still do drugs despite going through education programs in school, people ride bikes without helmets, they still eat tons of sugar, etc., etc. Scared straight usually isn't a real thing that works for a majority of people. heck, even people who experience bad outcomes first hand will often return to the vice or behavior that bit them.

I didn't say focus on worst case scenarios. I'm suggesting that people aren't properly educated enough to understand the risks, particularly if their information input has been watching a certain news channel and being stuck in a Facebook algorithm.

Actually, education does help.

Wear seatbelts has reduced car accident deaths.

People who change their diet have a lower risk of cancer, diabetes, and heart disease.

Sex education lowers pregnancy risk.

People who are vaccinated against covid have a statistically much lower likelihood of death if they get a breakthrough infection compared to an infection while unvaccinated.

You act as though people who get infected don't have any consequences. You act as though the likelihood of contracting covid, while unvaccinated, is low. I'm not saying focus on the worst case scenarios. I'm saying don't stick your head in the sand and assume that "whatever happens is God's will" or "just can't think about it because it'd make me anxious" or any of the other things I hear people say. 700,000 people have died of covid in the past 18 months in the US alone, 4,500,000+ people worldwide. Those numbers pale in comparison to the number of people who have had symptomatic illness, many of whom have had long term consequences. Frankly, I'm worried less about dying from covid than I am about getting it and having to lug around an oxygen tank or having cardiovascular impacts. (As I've mentioned to you previously.) I'm worried about those things because they are statistically more likely to happen than either you or I dying, and yet I don't see that captured in the news. That is the whole dang point of my post.

[frogger]

23 minutes ago, BronzeTurtle said:

 

the discussions here are downright  caricatures of people who are just people. are there weirdos online pedaling crap? yeah, well, okay there are, but spycar apparently follows people or gets news from somewhere that all the protesters in australia are neo-nazis, and someone else said it's mostly white supremacist types so it's not limited to just one facet of this issue. that news is coming from somewhere weird. someone just posted that they think money is involved in influencing people not to get vaxxed, which is hilarious because the "other side" says that big pharma is cashing in on the vaccines.  you all don't see how these are conspiracy theory roads as well? creating people you can hate so if you come across someone unvaccinated you can categorize them as unclean, racist, idiots, drunk drivers, murderers? there are whole hosts of people out there who are pro-vax and anti-mandates. they are just regular people who want to live their lives and let others live theirs. and somehow that sentiment is now anti-vax, white supremacy done for $$$? it's nuts and i thought people here would be sort of above that since it's an education board. oh well, the internet is the internet everywhere i suppose. 
 

I would say SpyCar is an extremist just as there are extremist in the right.  People who can't recognize that all of life is trade offs, that getting kids to school is important, and that some government officials may over react just as some under react is important. At some point people have to look at the big picture. 

I think there are a lot of people who want to be helpful but understand trade offs and want to watch mental health, education and such but they aren't the loudest people. 

I can definitely see why LMD and others in highly restricted states worry about freedom. I come from the other side of the world and not just literally but figuratively. 

 

  I live in a city with the highest rate of Covid in the US right now. The Assembly passed a mask mandate that has a 60 day limitation or when hospitals are no longer operating under crises care. This is nothing like the years long issues LMD is talking about.  The mandate is for indoors only gives exemptions for medical issues, for anyone communicating with deaf or hearing impaired, for anyone under the age of 5, sporting activities, and even churchs are exempt! But still people literally wore yellow stars to the assembly meeting, screamed at people, threatened people, attack nurses, booed health care workers who testified and after putting up this craziness for hours and hours for 6 days the assembly passed a very short term mandate with tons of exemptions the Mayor said it was passed under the cover of darkness. If anyone mentions a business demanding masks, they go on a rant about liberals and the cost of extreme lock downs. We have never ever had an extreme lock down! 

So how do you have a useful conversation ever. Even if you ask if people would be willing to be helpful with NO mandates this group will hate it because only a liberal would wear a mask and by the way our local hospital should be charged with murder because an assemblywoman's friend died because he couldn't just get all his quack remedies. On a forum you can hit ignore and just skip over the name calling etc but our assembly didn't have an ignore button during the public testimony. 

I do think one could have a rational conversation about whether businesses should be the ones enforcing things, etc. I was trying to catch up on Bootsie's conversation yesterday but was running all day. 

I also find the book I'm reading on the Psychology of Pandemics interesting. How do we as a society help people find real information? How do we encourage them to not get sucked into emotional arguments? How do we get them to look for trustworthy sources. Maybe the John Hopkins website is a more logical place to look than a political blogger. It feels too late now for this round. The cat is out of the bag now and people are believers in whatever extreme view they have taken but what about the future? What about other problems that will require collective action? I would love to have collective action without force if possible. 

 

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Spryte said:

I see this “can’t figure out where we caught it” theme, too. Neighbor-friends have no idea. But they never masked and are out and about, have parties, etc. of course they don’t know! It could have been anywhere, any day.

The grandma that took care of their kids has Covid now, and even with her, they “can’t figure out where she caught it.” She was *at their house* caring for them, she called 911! She then took the very exposed kids to her house while both parents were in the hospital. No one ever masked. Ummm?

It’s willful ignorance.

There’s another facet to this, too. There’s the, “No way did you get COVID *here*” response. Dh had COVID in April, after he went to a bar for a beer with a friend. I mean, sure he also went to Home Depot, but the likeliest place was a *bar*, where he wasn’t wearing a mask, at least, not once his beer arrived. He was just in this bar again recently and he told the bartender he got covid there in April. He said the guy argued it to death, like it’s “inconceivable” he got it there. 
 

Like…what?

[prairiewindmomma]

From my Facebook feed last week:

"Hey, friends! Sorry I've been so quiet the last few weeks. I've been sick with a bad cold for a few weeks now."

(a dozen or so posts later in the thread)

"Yeah, it's crazy! I know like ten families with covid right now!"

(deeper in the thread)

"The homecoming game was so great! It was such a fun weekend seeing (kids) and then seeing (everybody at church). Super sad to be missing (older family member who died recently)---wish they could have seen (kids) play!"

(deeper in the thread)

"Almost done with my quarantine! Work was giving me extra sick leave because of covid."

----------------

Would you have interacted differently around this person when you saw them at the homecoming game, or at church, or at the family funeral  if you knew that they had a positive covid test and were suppressing their symptoms with medication so they could go do all of the things with their kids?

Does the fact that you now know that they had covid and weren't telling anyone on purpose until their "quarantine" was up and they could go back to work change how you will interact with them in the future?

 

 

[maize]

48 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Every other day in this country alone we are losing more people to covid than we did in the 911 attacks.

If those who are refusing to mask and refusing to vaccinate and who are fueling illness and death and breaking the healthcare system due to their bad behaviors are feeling "othered," then I can't imaging a more appropriate feeling on their part (other than a deep sense of shame).

Bill

Engaging in othering is not harmful only to those being othered. 

It profoundly undermines our own ability to see people who may not agree with us or look like us or have the same experiences as us as, fundamentally, human. 

Like you.

Like me.

It feeds divisiveness and hinders any ability we might have to influence anyone for good.

 Responding to what we perceive to be wrong in others with wrongs of our own is not constructive.

[Spy Car]

Just now, maize said:

Engaging in othering is not harmful only to those being othered. 

It profoundly undermines our own ability to see people who may not agree with us or look like us or have the same experiences as us as, fundamentally, human. 

Like you.

Like me.

It feeds divisiveness and hinders any ability we might have to influence anyone for good.

 Responding to what we perceive to be wrong in others with wrongs of our own is not constructive.

I disagree. At this point those who demonstrate disregard for human life should be treated based on their behavior.

Actions have consequences. Anti-vaxxers/Anti-maskers are causing death and illness in addition to breaking the healthcare system and damaging the economy.

These folks don't deserve gold stars.

Acting like it is "normal behavior" is what's not constructive in my estimation.

Bill

[LMD]

23 minutes ago, TCB said:

I think it’s fair to say that many of the people protesting against masks and vaccines, because of their human rights, are not the ones protesting or speaking out against the issues Sneezy mentioned.

I don't presume to make any sweeping statement that I understand what's going on in your country (it would be nice if people like spycar afforded us the same respect) but Australia is not America.

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, LMD said:

I don't presume to make any sweeping statement that I understand what's going on in your country (it would be nice if people like spycar afforded us the same respect) but Australia is not America.

Yet you denied that neo-Nazis and other violent white supremacists took over the Melbourne anti-vaxx "march" from the trade workers union (whose leaders condemned them).

You either don't know what's going on in your own country or you are being dishonest.

Bill 

[Faith-manor]

33 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

From my Facebook feed last week:

"Hey, friends! Sorry I've been so quiet the last few weeks. I've been sick with a bad cold for a few weeks now."

(a dozen or so posts later in the thread)

"Yeah, it's crazy! I know like ten families with covid right now!"

(deeper in the thread)

"The homecoming game was so great! It was such a fun weekend seeing (kids) and then seeing (everybody at church). Super sad to be missing (older family member who died recently)---wish they could have seen (kids) play!"

(deeper in the thread)

"Almost done with my quarantine! Work was giving me extra sick leave because of covid."

----------------

Would you have interacted differently around this person when you saw them at the homecoming game, or at church, or at the family funeral  if you knew that they had a positive covid test and were suppressing their symptoms with medication so they could go do all of the things with their kids?

Does the fact that you now know that they had covid and weren't telling anyone on purpose until their "quarantine" was up and they could go back to work change how you will interact with them in the future?

 

 

Yes. I would not interact with this person ever again. This is an evil line in sand for me. When our son was being isolated due to a major health issue when he was six, some people we thought were good friends, invited a bunch of people over to her daughter's birthday party including us. We declined because ds couldn't be around other kids at that time, but found out later their youngest child had a raging case of step throat and had been on a antibiotics less than 24 hrs, and the oldest child had been up in the night throwing up. They didn't cancel the party or even tell the guests before they came into the house because they didn't want to disappoint their middle kid. 

With friends like that, who needs enemies! We never socialized with them ever again and let the relationship die on the vine.

So the folks in this scenario would be the kind that if I happened to see them on this sidewalk, I would nod my head politely as I went by, but there would be NO social interaction with my family. That is wicked, disgusting behavior that has far reaching consequences, and therefore is no someone I need to allow into my inner circle.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Faith-manor

[SKL]

5 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Yet you denied that neo-Nazis and other violent white supremacists took over the Melbourne anti-vaxx "march" from the trade workers union (whose leaders condemned them).

You either don't know what's going on in your own country or you are being dishonest.

Bill 

There should be a badge on WTM for "called a liar by Spycar."  Check!

[Spy Car]

8 hours ago, SKL said:

There should be a badge on WTM for "called a liar by Spycar."  

Bill

Edited October 15, 2021 by desertflower
Having the “last word”