Epicurean Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Would you be okay with your MIL bathing in the tub with your four year old daughter? (No swim suits or anything.) The kid sees nothing wrong with it. This is a huge crossing of boundaries for me. My DH says he thinks it's s little icky but he doesn't want to fight a battle over it. I can't help feeling like it's a hill to die on. Maybe it's because neither of us have ever bathed with our kids. Maybe it's because I had a traumatic childhood. I don't know. Is this common or as weird as I think it is? How do we put a stop to it without implying that we think grandma is a child predator (the one time I mentioned it she practically yelled that I shouldn't treat her like she's a child molester). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrganicJen Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Wow I think it's pretty shocking...not normal in my book. Wow. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I personally wouldn't like it, but I like her reaction a heck of a lot less! I presume that you mentioned it in a respectful way, and that you aren't generally a control freak about grandma/grandchild interaction, so her absolute defiance of a parent's request would have me drawing strict s.t.r.i.c.t. boundaries. Does your dh see it in these terms? Ie, not just the particular behaviour but the disrespect of a parent's request. How to stop it? Grandma gets supervised visits until you feel trust is regained. 17 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa in Australia Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think it terrible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 At 4, I find that odd. At 2, it wouldn't bother me. I bathed with my kids at that age too. I agree that what's most upsetting is the refusal to respect/follow your rules. 16 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sneezyone Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) Dp Edited October 9, 2017 by Sneezyone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epicurean Posted October 9, 2017 Author Share Posted October 9, 2017 Ugh, LMD, you hit the nail on the head. I was respectful but firm, she escalated it to level 10, we backed down because we didn't want to fight. That's how it typically goes. She is a textbook narcissist, but DH doesn't want to cut off contact because she is in her seventies and has a lot of health problems. I think you might be right that visits should be supervised. In that case, I might die before she does from all the stress. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwik Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 It wouldn't really worry me but it is unlikely any of them would want to. I would be doubtful about a grandfather bathing with a 4 year old girl. That said he reaction would have caused concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Ugh, LMD, you hit the nail on the head. I was respectful but firm, she escalated it to level 10, we backed down because we didn't want to fight. That's how it typically goes. She is a textbook narcissist, but DH doesn't want to cut off contact because she is in her seventies and has a lot of health problems. I think you might be right that visits should be supervised. In that case, I might die before she does from all the stress. Yep. Btdt, you have all my sympathy! In our case it was my parent and it was excruciating to set boundaries with her because I knew what would happen (level 10 tantrum indeed!) I am sorry, I do think that you need to supervise, I wouldn't trust dh to be able to say no to her, it's just nearly impossible for a child of a narcissist. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Weird. I wouldn't leave DC alone with her, not because I thought she was a molester, but because this is indicative of a lack of good judgement across the board. 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) I think it's a bit weird and never happened in our family, but I don't think there is anything wrong with it. Her refusal to respect your wishes Is troublesome, though. Edited October 9, 2017 by reefgazer 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twolittleboys Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think she should respect your wishes (if you have made them quite clear) but I don't see anything wrong with it. My son was in the tub with his grandfather when he was little (much younger than 4, but still) and I used to bathe with my father when I was small. So I don't necessarily think it is weird in itself. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 It doesn't matter if I think it's weird.. you told her not to do it and she responded in a way that is WAY out of line! She sounds untrustworthy at best. I'd be very willing to fight about something like that. And yes, it's super weird ftr. Some families do that, but yours clearly does not, so it seems very random and *not at all* anything she should have protective feelings about. , Over the comfort of her son and dil about leaving her gd alone with her. Who even wants to sit in a tiny little tub with a kid that big? It's not like that giant tub they all get in in Totoro. So weird! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think it's a bit odd. Up to 2 or so with a parent is ok. But the fact that she overreacted so badly is even more concerning. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrincessMommy Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think it's weird for any grandparent to do that at any age - unless perhaps if grandparent lives with the family for some reason. But, otherwise, I don't even see the need for doing that. When my kids were very little (less than 2) I would sometimes bathe with them for convenience. It would never even cross my mind to bathe with my grandchildren - ever. The escalating is very troubling. You have my sympathies. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alice Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 My Mom would have done it and would have thought I was weird to mind. I agree though that the bigger issue is respecting you asa a parent. It doesn't matter what other people think; if you feel uncomfortable then Grandma should respect that. It's ok for her to roll her eyes and think you are overreacting but not ok for her to throw a tantrum or to ignore your wishes. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweet2ndchance Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I showered (not bathed) with all my children up until about preschool age but I would never dream of it with children that were not biologically mine. My dh would never dream of showering or bathing with any of his step kids of either gender (my kids from my first marriage). We would both be livid with anyone else wanting to spend time naked for any reason with any of our kids but the deal breaker for us would be the reaction your MIL had to your boundary setting. Dh and I both are children of narcissistic parents. We have both tried and tried to "play nice" with them. We've tried setting boundaries with them. But we've just had to accept that they are incapable of playing nice and incapable of respecting other people's boundaries. There just came a point where we both had to decide how much of that we were willing to continue to live with. For us, the answer was none, so we cut off all contact with our biological parents. Neither of us regrets the decisions we made regarding our parents one iota. It was a long, painful process for both of us but we both feel that it is for the best not only for us but also our children. Our children still have grandparents who love them dearly but also know how to act appropriately and respect boundaries. The fact that they are not biological grandparents does not make a bit of difference to them or to the grandparent figures in their life. They are learning more about healthy boundaries and healthy relationships than their biological grandparents could ever teach them. It is a little sad that it has to be this way but I am truly grateful that my children will not have to grow up learning how to be someone's narcissistic supply like I did. It has taken years of therapy as an adult and lots of soul searching to finally understand just how messed up my childhood was and begin to heal from it. Setting boundaries with parents/in-laws can be tough but setting boundaries with a narcissist can be a nightmare. I wish you and your husband the best of luck. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KungFuPanda Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 It seems easy enough to not be around her at bath time. Are you leaving her overnight? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ausmumof3 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I just had another thought. If she's in her 70s and caring for her maybe she feels she can't safely bath her by learning over the side or she can't bend over to help if help is needed. Maybe she doesn't want to admit to that level of physical limitation (some oldies are funny about this stuff). Still doesn't make it ok, either way she sounds like someone who shouldn't be caring for the child but might make sense from that viewpoint. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizabeth86 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 No not ok. Bathing with parents ok. Grandparents not ok. Im sure it is innocent in her mind because she bathed with her kids. I am constantly reminding grandparents they are not our kids parents. I would have found bathing with my grandma awkward, but i have been ultra private since a very young age. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFSinIL Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Does Grandma mind the blunt observations her granddaughter is bound to make "Granny, why are you so wrinkled? Granny, why do your boobs sag down so much?" etc. I agree it is a bit odd. Why is Grandma even bathing the kid? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janeway Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I would not allow it. I will PM you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ashfern Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I think it's odd and would not be happy about it. Up to about 4-5, I would shower with my kids if I needed them clean and didn't have time for them to take a bath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Ugh, LMD, you hit the nail on the head. I was respectful but firm, she escalated it to level 10, we backed down because we didn't want to fight. That's how it typically goes. She is a textbook narcissist, but DH doesn't want to cut off contact because she is in her seventies and has a lot of health problems. I think you might be right that visits should be supervised. In that case, I might die before she does from all the stress. "In her 70s with health problems" has me wondering why in the world the two would end up in the tub at any time. Besides being squicky, it seem just plain unsafe. I would not arrange visits to occur at times a bath is needed. Supervised visits sound like a good idea. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I showered (not bathed) with all my children up until about preschool age but I would never dream of it with children that were not biologically mine. My dh would never dream of showering or bathing with any of his step kids of either gender (my kids from my first marriage). We would both be livid with anyone else wanting to spend time naked for any reason with any of our kids but the deal breaker for us would be the reaction your MIL had to your boundary setting. Dh and I both are children of narcissistic parents. We have both tried and tried to "play nice" with them. We've tried setting boundaries with them. But we've just had to accept that they are incapable of playing nice and incapable of respecting other people's boundaries. There just came a point where we both had to decide how much of that we were willing to continue to live with. For us, the answer was none, so we cut off all contact with our biological parents. Neither of us regrets the decisions we made regarding our parents one iota. It was a long, painful process for both of us but we both feel that it is for the best not only for us but also our children. Our children still have grandparents who love them dearly but also know how to act appropriately and respect boundaries. The fact that they are not biological grandparents does not make a bit of difference to them or to the grandparent figures in their life. They are learning more about healthy boundaries and healthy relationships than their biological grandparents could ever teach them. It is a little sad that it has to be this way but I am truly grateful that my children will not have to grow up learning how to be someone's narcissistic supply like I did. It has taken years of therapy as an adult and lots of soul searching to finally understand just how messed up my childhood was and begin to heal from it. Setting boundaries with parents/in-laws can be tough but setting boundaries with a narcissist can be a nightmare. I wish you and your husband the best of luck. Just sharing that you are not alone in the "surrogate grandparent" club. One grandparent set was totallty unresponsive/uninvolved, the other has severe boundary issues (to the point of endangering the kids), and we have had to be limited in contact. Another older couple has been very engaged in the children's lives and for that I am eternally grateful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom@shiloh Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Just no. It really doesn't matter what anyone else thinks or does. You don't like it. You're the mom. It's your call. 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMS83 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) No not ok. Bathing with parents ok. Grandparents not ok. Im sure it is innocent in her mind because she bathed with her kids. I am constantly reminding grandparents they are not our kids parents. I would have found bathing with my grandma awkward, but i have been ultra private since a very young age. This. It's worse if you have them really young. My self-esteem was too low to think to set boundaries and create space. It shouldn't take a Big Deal for that to happen, and in my experience, it's mostly an internal thing. Just changing how you perceive the relationship and respond to them will help a lot, and will likely be noticed. ETA: admittedly, I have no idea how to handle the over-the-top reactions, OP. :grouphug: Edited October 9, 2017 by CES2005 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaBearTeacher Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 eww! No, not okay. and her reaction when you tried to talk to her about it. You have to protect your child. I would not leave her alone. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MercyA Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) No, no, no. Absolutely not. I would have hit the roof (or would have wanted to). Very inappropriate, and doubly so without your permission. I'm sorry you have to deal with this. Edited October 9, 2017 by MercyA 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Oh, I would die hard on that hill. No, no, no!! 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Well, I've been in the same situation, but only realized it after cutting off visits, so it was no longer something that needed to be actively addressed. There was most definitely nothing nefarious about it. It was considered perfectly normal and innocent (and time saving) in that family. It is absolutely NOT normal in MY family! There's also narcissism and other mental health issues in that family, which were demonstrated in other situations when my husband's and my wishes were blatantly disrespected. Infants being fed formula instead of the breast milk provided, toddlers cooking on gas stoves and getting burned after being told not to do that, disregarding car seat preferences AND laws, showing up at the door and asking the kids who wanted to go for a visit... I could go on. People without respect for boundaries are toxic. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizabeth86 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 This. It's worse if you have them really young. My self-esteem was too low to think to set boundaries and create space. It shouldn't take a Big Deal for that to happen, and in my experience, it's mostly an internal thing. Just changing how you perceive the relationship and respond to them will help a lot, and will likely be noticed. ETA: admittedly, I have no idea how to handle the over-the-top reactions, OP. :grouphug: Your right. Most everyone in my family is a young unmarried mom, so my family has this mindset that grandparents take contol when their kids have kids. I honestly think it bugs them my family can take care of itself. Sad really. Glad I broke the cycle. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann.without.an.e Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 No. Just no. Maybe she is a different culture where this is ok? If so, just explain that in your world it isn't and you are the mom. Having an in-law relationship where we agreed with so many things we didn't want to go along with to "keep peace", I understand the difficulty. Just go ahead and choose your hills now and stand up for yourself. If she is controlling and can't handle that then it will eventually blow up anyway. Now is just as good as later. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LMD Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 No. Just no. Maybe she is a different culture where this is ok? If so, just explain that in your world it isn't and you are the mom. Having an in-law relationship where we agreed with so many things we didn't want to go along with to "keep peace", I understand the difficulty. Just go ahead and choose your hills now and stand up for yourself. If she is controlling and can't handle that then it will eventually blow up anyway. Now is just as good as later. Haha well said. Except now is better than later because the damage can be stemmed and healed. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Would you be okay with your MIL bathing in the tub with your four year old daughter? (No swim suits or anything.) The kid sees nothing wrong with it. This is a huge crossing of boundaries for me. My DH says he thinks it's s little icky but he doesn't want to fight a battle over it. I can't help feeling like it's a hill to die on. Maybe it's because neither of us have ever bathed with our kids. Maybe it's because I had a traumatic childhood. I don't know. Is this common or as weird as I think it is? How do we put a stop to it without implying that we think grandma is a child predator (the one time I mentioned it she practically yelled that I shouldn't treat her like she's a child molester). Just to clarify...... She asked you if she could take a bath with the kids and you said no, but she did it anyway? OR, she did it without asking, you found out, and then talked to her about it? If the first, she crossed boundaries in a major way. If the second, it may just be what was normal when she raised her kids so it may not have occurred to her to ask for permission. But she shouldn't do it a second time now that she has been told not to. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ann.without.an.e Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Haha well said. Except now is better than later because the damage can be stemmed and healed. Funny, I almost came back and edited my own post to say this. My kids were older before we had to terminate the relationship. It would have been much easier when they were little. Hopefully MIL will be able to accept boundaries and the relationship will be better for it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarenC Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Ugg. Wow. That is way over the top. At what age does grandma plan to stop bathing with dd? That is just plain weird. What does FIL think? That is way to bizarre for me. Has this happened before? I feel like I'm babbling. This blew me away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolt. Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) Because it is quite normal for a same-gender *parent* to bathe with a child, I can see how that could seem (to a grandparent) to be a 'normal way that you take care of kids'. I can see why a request to stop bathing a grandchild 'the normal way' might raise her feelings momentarily around "Why not? I'm not going to harm her!" So, I think I could forgive both the mistake and the outburst -- but not a continuation of the activity if it makes you uncomfortable. If you are uncomfortable, it stops. For the record, my kids' grandmother showered with them (unclothed) in the context of after swimming in a locker room, and/or during camping trips, until they were ten-or-so... just to wash their hair when I wasn't there to do it. I never got a sense that it was icky or inappropriate. Edited October 9, 2017 by bolt. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Die on that hill. I have a crazy aunt who did a number of things that made me uncomfortable. I know she meant well and none of it was abusive, but even my 4 year old self was aware that it was not normal. Some of my most vivid early memories involve her, I think because the weirdness seared them into my brain. I remember wishing my parents drew some boundaries. I have some mental snapshots that I would have preferred not to have. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selkie Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Yikes. Between your Mil doing that and then her reaction, the whole thing sounds creepy! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessa516 Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Not just no, but oh hell NO! Granny gets supervised visitation from now on. Find a new sitter. Read the book Boundaries. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Four? No. Grandma? No. Too many crossed boundaries here. We showered with our kids when they were itty bitties because it was easier, but that was really done and over by at least two. Four is awful old for that kind of thing and even if it wasn't, well, it really doesn't matter. You're the mom. Story stops there. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 No. Full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Whether the original act of bathing with a child was wrong or not depends on family values/culture/practice. The disrespect of your wishes is the main issue. But if this is new behavior (not the tantrum, but the nude bathing) I agree with pp that there is an issue of judgment. Often before actual dementia sets in, judgment in various areas begins to go. That could present a danger beyond "weirdness." So yes, supervised visits. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DawnM Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Yuck. No. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PinkyandtheBrains. Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 I shrugged it off until I read her reaction. It would be a big no at that point. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angie in VA Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Nope. Just nope. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebra Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 You MIL shouldn't be bathing with your child. It's weird. And it's super weird if it was a new thing. In my opinion, someone who does this out of the blue at the very least has poor judgment. If your MIL isn't mentally ill, using boundaries may work. Maybe this was a misunderstanding. They will be painful to implement, but she would respond to firm boundaries eventually. IE if you and DD have another n*ked bath this will be the consequence, and stick to it. However, if MIL is NPD or something else no boundary in the world is going to work. And frankly, NPD's and other types like that LOVE pushing boundaries. In this case she probably had some idea it would ick you out, and that's why she did it. Just to be in control, upset you, win, etc. If you state clearly that X should not be done, she will "misunderstand" and do it even more. Or say, "I thought you said no n*aked baths, we're in the hot tub!" The big thing for you to sort out is, is MIL a person who made a mistake or has she got some mental issue? Because, if she has mental issues you should not be leaving your dd with MIL unsupervised, ever. And you should expect to have battle after battle after battle after battle with her. It will never end. It's just important to know up front that you will always be "managing" her. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 (edited) I don't see any problem with that, as long as the child is not uncomfortable. Why is this supposed to be a big deal? What's the hangup with nakedness in a situation where being naked is perfectly appropriate, i.e. in the bathtub? Edited October 9, 2017 by regentrude 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted October 9, 2017 Share Posted October 9, 2017 Well, I think the grandparents should go with the wishes of the parents in this. If they don't it's a problem. I don't think it's unusual though for grandparents to feel a kind of parent-like connection to grandkids. But I have no problem with the concept of communal bathing or mixed bathing and I am surprised so many think it's an ewww. Some families and cultures are more private which is fine, but communal bathing is pretty common worldwide and certainly isn't damaging psychologically. It has a lot to recommend it in terms of things like body image, and so on. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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