Is this appropriate? Helpful? Overly controlling?

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Here's the scenario:

 

Person A loads the dishwasher and thinks of it mainly as assistance for Person B, rather than pitching in as part of the household. When loading the dishwasher, they intentionally do several things that will cause the dishwasher to work less effectively (meaning at least a few items won't get clean and will then have to be washed by hand by Person B). When I say intentionally, I mean Person A does those things intentionally, not that they intend to cause dishes to stay dirty and cause extra work. 

 

When Person B adds dishes to the dishwasher, they notice the quirks and point out that those things (which were intended as helpful) are actually counterproductive because of X, Y, and Z results.

 

Is it appropriate for Person B to point those things out (neutrally), or is it controlling? Is it reasonable for Person A to be annoyed? 

 

I'd like to hear thoughts, and then I'll discuss more about why I'm asking. It all relates to a larger issue we're dealing with at the moment!

[Carol in Cal.]

Sounds like the issue is who is actually responsible.

[marbel]

We have actually talked about this in my house.

 

I've seen people get offended when they put something in the dishwasher and another person (typically the person who usually does the dishes) moves it for more efficiency and/or fitting in more dishes. I've never understood that.

 

We were without a dishwasher for a few years and when we got a new one I told my family to go ahead and put stuff in the washer but don't get mad if I move it because I am a professional, people and I know how best to load it.

 

We all did look at the diagrams in the book.  So they kinda know what to do.

 

I do not think it is controlling.  I think it makes sense to load the dishwasher for maximum capacity and cleaning.  If Person A wants to help, they should actually help and want to learn how to help more effectively and not add work to Person B.

 

Can't wait to hear the backstory.

Edited December 14, 2015 by marbel

[ThisIsTheDay]

I think whatever it is is reflective of a larger issue and that possibly both A and B are being passive agressive with the dishwasher issues.

 

If Person A is a child, then a parent needs to tell Person A how to correctly load the dishwasher.

If Person A is an adult, then Person B needs to live with it, let it go, and consider that part of their dishwasher duties will include reloading or rewashing the dishes.

 

 

 

 

[hornblower]

Generally speaking, I think if person A actually wants to be helpful to person B then it's reasonable for person B to say how the help should be done.  It's reasonable to say "hey, I know you're trying but you're not actually helping! What would help would be if you did this......" ---  but probably more politely ;) 

that said, in our home nobody ever gets through any discussion about loading the dishwasher without talking about "As Time Goes By" and Lionel, who 'always loads the dishwasher from the back, you know' 

The 4 people who live here have wildly different ideas about how the dishwasher should be loaded so it's a sort of barely controlled chaos in that machine. Dirty things just get put right back in the machine cause we're lazy like that.... "stay there until you get clean!" 

[JustEm]

I think it is fine for person b to point out how to use the dishwasher the most efficient way and point out that when it is done differently not all the dishes get done correctly. I would find it controlling if person b stood their to correct the behavior(my aunt does this) rather than just doing the job themselves.

 

I don't think person a should get annoyed for the correction I also think conversation needs to happen in which the 2 either decide to both load the dishwasher so everything is getting cleaned or agree that person a shouldn't do the loading anymore.

 

My sister will not let anyone else load the dishwasher for precisely this reason. She doesn't like waste and having to do dishes after they've already gone through the dishwasher. When visiting my mother and her always get in an tiny argument over it because my mom is just trying to help but my sister doesn't find it helpful.

[Miss Tick]

It sounds logical to me to point those things out. I have to remind people of things like that so many times I would assume they forgot, or weren't paying attention. It isn't controlling, it is logic. I would expect Person A to be annoyed, though, because nobody likes to feel "corrected", but they should get over it after a few minutes of being left alone.

 

Separately, Person B should be annoyed that Person A thinks of loading the dishwasher as "doing someone a favor". I bet Person A buys or will buy people small appliances for their birthday. As a favor.

[ThisIsTheDay]

 

I've seen people get offended when they put something in the dishwasher and another person (typically the person who usually does the dishes) moves it for more efficiency and/or fitting in more dishes.

 

 

. . . .

 

don't get mad if I move it because I am a professional, people and I know how best to load it.    Hahaha, perfect!!!!

 

My kids and husband used to get upset if I would move dishes.  They didn't understand that I move around my OWN dishes in the dishwasher too, depending on what gets loaded later.

 

The same thing goes for the Christmas tree.  Please help me decorate, I can't do it all by myself.  But when you notice that I move ornaments around later, notice that I move ornaments *I* hung also!  It's not because I don't think you are capable, it's to get the best end result!

 

[creekland]

We have a rule in our house that only one person can load a dishwasher.  We have a second rule that says if something doesn't get clean, the person who loaded it cleans it.

 

It's worked very, very well at avoiding all sorts of problems between both kids and adults.

 

I'm really convinced that two people can't load one dishwasher...

[Pawz4me]

I don't think it's reasonable to get upset if you're loading the dishwasher and someone points out that you're doing it incorrectly.  Because there IS a right and wrong way to do it (as evidenced by owners manuals that state the correct way to do it).

 

I do think if it's a matter of preference where there's not a clear right/wrong way to do something and Person A told Person B he or she was doing it wrong (just because said person wasn't doing it the way Person A preferred) then Person B would be justified in feeling a bit annoyed.

[Joyofsixreboot]

I can only say that dh and I do NOTHING in the same way. I just redo while he isn't looking. My kids I correct.

[Valley Girl]

Person A needs to get over himself/herself. If I'm Person A and I'm trying to help someone, but I'm not actually helping because of how I'm doing the task, I'd rather be corrected (nicely!) so that the time I'm putting into it is actually, you know, helpful. If I'm Person B, I'm going to make sure Person A knows I'm appreciative. But if he or she is going to make extra work and act like they're doing me some big favor to boot, I might suggest they wash the stuff that won't fit or comes out dirty.

Edited December 14, 2015 by Reluctant Homeschooler

[Spryte]

Wow, I don't even remember posting this, but it's definitely a common scenario in this house.  Are you me?  Am I you?

[GinaPagnato]

Completely not helpful to this particular discussion, but I just hate it when family members think they're "helping out" by participating in cleaning the freakin' house that, you know, we ALL live in...

 

:cursing:

 

Sorry...a tender spot for me. :lol:

[Guest]

Ahh my husband is the dish mover, though I am the main dish washer.

 

He loads it the most awesome efficient BEST BEST SUPER BEST way, so at one time he wanted me to do the same, and said so, repeatedly.

 

Sparing you the deets....we ended up realizing that any way the dishes get done is a good way. Because, contrary to the efficiency expert's initial opinion...the two choices are not 1-load the dishwasher A way or 2--load the dishwasher B way.....it's HAVE clean dishes, or don't.

 

(Really please don't jump all over me for not having passionate feelings about loading the dishwasher. I am only saying this b/c it might be relevant to the OP)

[FriedClams]

We have a couple of funny, but real, rules in our house for DH and me. We laugh about them, but we do follow them.  Despite the hidden details, to me this is obviously a Married People issue. If it's a parent/kid scenario, kid needs to learn to do it The Parent Way until they move out and then they can load their own dishwasher as crazy as they want. 

 

Back to the rule (and it's a Married People rule) ... "You can ask me to do something, or you can tell me how to do it, but you can't do both." In this case, I'd either load it myself, or be glad that I only have to wash 25% of the load, and not all of it. 75% savings of work is a much better perspective than 100% fail. IMHO, asking someone to do a job and nagging about how it's done is a parent/kid thing - not a spouse thing.

Edited December 14, 2015 by FriedClams

[Carol in Cal.]

We have a couple of funny, but real, rules in our house for DH and me. We laugh about them, but we do follow them.  Despite the hidden details, to me this is obviously a Married People issue. If it's a parent/kid scenario, kid needs to learn to do it The Parent Way until they move out and then they can load their own dishwasher as crazy as they want. 

 

Back to the rule (and it's a Married People rule) ... "You can ask me to do something, or you can tell me how to do it, but you can't do both." In this case, I'd either load it myself, or be glad that I only have to wash 25% of the load, and not all of it. 75% savings of work is a much better perspective than 100% fail. IMHO, asking someone to do a job and nagging about how it's done is a parent/kid thing - not a spouse thing.

Well, I have a Married People Rule, and it's one of my most important ones.

And that is, "Do not EVER say, or otherwise take the position that you are 'helping me' by doing housework, implying as that does that doing housework is defined as my responsibility."  "EVER." 

 

And then there is the codicil, "Doing something incorrectly is not going to make me do it.  I am on to you, and wise to you, and not participating in the conveniently but falsely helpless routine."  And furthermore, "It was not my job to start with."  Plus, "I cannot find the butter any easier than you can.  We both know it is in the fridge.  Finding it does not take two people." 

Edited December 14, 2015 by Carol in Cal.

[Pegasus]

Well, I will only load the dishwasher if I think I can load it, run it, and unload it before DH sees any of it.  Otherwise, I just stack dishes on the counter and let him do it his own way.  

 

Sincerely, if someone believes there is only one correct way to do something, they need to do it themselves.  

[happi duck]

If I mow the lawn it.is.not.pretty.

 

Dh and ds usually mow so I don't mind "I find it easier to x" or "don't forget x" because they know what they're doing.

 

The more expert person should be free to share what they know works best.

 

I don't say anything if it's just a preference thing where the results will be the same...like tp being over or under.

[zoobie]

Person A needs to be voted off the island unless he is under the age of 10 or never uses dishes in the household. Over 10-12 and developmentally normal, he's perfectly capable of remembering not to overstuff the dishwasher (or washer!) because things just don't get clean. Or not to put the nasty pot right up against the front of the rack, facing the door, where it has zero hope of getting clean and 98% chance of blocking the soap dispenser.

[goldberry]

When we first got a dishwasher, I had to point out to my husband that if he did not rinse out his oatmeal bowl before he put it in the dishwasher, it would not come clean.  There was no bad feeling on either side.  Although he occasionally still forgets, but that's a separate issue. ;)

 

Why would you not want to know if you were doing something that caused the dishes not to be clean?  There is no reasonable explanation other than pride or stubbornness. The line about "don't tell me how to do it" should not apply to a measurable result like a dish being clean or dirty.  If the dish is dirty, it was done incorrectly.  End of story.

[Farrar]

I think it's all in the dynamics. There's nothing bad in this scenario at all in my opinion. I mean, loading the dishwasher is fine. Not doing it often is fine. Suggesting ways to do it better is fine.

 

I think the problem is when someone doesn't pitch in around the house enough in general and that's the problem. Or when someone is constantly correcting or nagging. I mean, if A is always doing lots of good housework and just is a little dishwasher challenged, then I think B is in the wrong. If A never seems to help out and when A does it comes out all wrong and there's no effort to improve, then clearly A is in the wrong. I'm guessing the truth is in the middle somewhere and it's really about learning better dynamics across the board.

[Critterfixer]

If I catch it before it runs, I change it and don't say a word. Unless I'm in a mood. 

Sort of like when it gets unloaded and things put up in strange places. I don't say a thing, unless I'm in a mood.

I do my best not to be in a mood. :laugh:

[Farrar]

I should add that this was, for years, an argument between dh and I. I can't even count the number of times he put pots still half full of grits in the dishwasher. It's just counterproductive. Nothing comes out clean if you put in a pot full of grits. For goodness sake. It's just making work.

 

We finally had to decide dh isn't allowed to load the dishwasher. Because he just could not learn. And I just could not let it go because it was so egregious. But likewise, he had to learn to let it go that I'm not tidy. And I had to let it go all the ways he does some house tasks sort of wrong, like the way he does laundry with loads that are too big and always forgets to clean the lint screen. It's fine. It's not optimal, but it's his task. I have to let it go. That's why I think it's good to have a fairly clear delineation of tasks. And having overlap is okay, but only if you're both okay with how the other does it.

[Pink and Green Mom]

Around here, when Person A doesn't want to be told that his dishwasher loading skills leave much to be desired, Person B has been known to just go with the flow.  Then when the dishes come out all yucky, Person B starts talking about the new dishwasher she is going to need because the current one just isn't cleaning the dishes anymore.  Person A then researches if there is indeed a better way to stack the dishwasher because Person A sees dollar signs flashing before his eyes.  Person A now realizes one cannot just throw dishes in there any old way.

[skimomma]

After 15 years of dishwasher ownership, I recently just banned everyone else from loading it.  Or unloading it.  I know I am particular in how I do things but generally have no problem with people doing things differently as long as the result is good.  I just don't watch.  But the dishwasher is different.  There are certain areas where things must go in order to get clean, not block the soap dispenser, not block the washer arms, etc....  There are also certain foods that must be more carefully rinsed than others.  Entire loads of dishes come out dirty if these things are not done properly and ends up taking much more of my time because once the dishwasher has dried the dirty dishes they are very difficult for me to wash.  If it were just some dirty dishes AND my family could ever at least try to learn some of the basics, I could deal.

 

But.  My dh also puts things in the washer that actually WRECK the machine so he is just not allowed anymore.  He cannot be bothered to rinse/scrape off things that clog the sprayers....like citrus seeds.  He insists on putting things with labels into the machine, like salsa jars.  That paper and glue come off and clog the sprayers.  He cannot seem to remember to LOOK at what he is putting in the soap dispenser....at one point he was using the rinse aid in the soap dispenser.  Two wrecked dishwashers later, he is just not allowed to touch.

 

Unloading is also a sore spot.  He cannot seem to remember where anything goes so I end up having hunt things down while trying to cook.  Somehow he can always FIND these things when he needs to use them but then simply cannot remember where to put them back.  Never mind that we have duplicates of almost everything....he can just look for the same items to know where to put things.  My personal favorite of his unloading "help" is to take all the dishes out, stack them on the counter, then LEAVE THEM for me to put away.  He is flabbergasted when I tell him this is not helpful.  In his eyes, he did half of the job.  In my eyes, I have counters full of dishes that have to be put away before I can do anything else because all of the working space is occupied by clean dishes.  If they are just left in the washer, I can do what I need to do and get to putting them away when I have a chance. 

 

I swear the dishwasher was 75% of our marital stress.  It made me mad to take the entire job on by myself but honestly we are all so much happier.  I gave dh litter boxes as his sole responsibly to even things out.  And I do not care one bit how he does them as long as they get done.

[Tsuga]

Here's the scenario:

 

Person A loads the dishwasher and thinks of it mainly as assistance for Person B, rather than pitching in as part of the household. When loading the dishwasher, they intentionally do several things that will cause the dishwasher to work less effectively (meaning at least a few items won't get clean and will then have to be washed by hand by Person B). When I say intentionally, I mean Person A does those things intentionally, not that they intend to cause dishes to stay dirty and cause extra work. 

 

When Person B adds dishes to the dishwasher, they notice the quirks and point out that those things (which were intended as helpful) are actually counterproductive because of X, Y, and Z results.

 

Is it appropriate for Person B to point those things out (neutrally), or is it controlling? Is it reasonable for Person A to be annoyed? 

 

I'd like to hear thoughts, and then I'll discuss more about why I'm asking. It all relates to a larger issue we're dealing with at the moment!

 

Everyone gets annoyed at different things and it's not a question of being rational. Life is full of disappointment and what we choose to let irritate us (and plenty irritates me!) is a choice and it's not really rational.

 

That doesn't mean, however, it's wrong to get irritated or have preferences or have that one thing you want done well. It's perfectly acceptable.

 

In this case, I'd say, if B wants it done right, do it themselves. That will prevent the irritation in the future.

 

I am with Pegasus. If he's here I just rinse.

 

Apparently it requires a PhD because 4 years of living together and I still haven't learned all the obscure rules such as "these two things can't nest but these things, if not nesting, are wasting space". I think this could actually be an undergraduate engineering degree in dishwasher loading. It's like the rules of pro football: "No, you normally can't move three feet behind them if you're touching your nose, but if you are to the left and behind the 30 yard line and the linebacker is in front of the quarterback, then it's okay to move three feet behind them but only for 10 seconds and if it's not overtime or the playoffs." Whatever. YOLO, I'm going to go read science fiction while someone else Loads the Perfect Dishwasher.

[goldberry]

  My personal favorite of his unloading "help" is to take all the dishes out, stack them on the counter, then LEAVE THEM for me to put away.  He is flabbergasted when I tell him this is not helpful.  In his eyes, he did half of the job. 

 

My DH does this with groceries!  He takes them out of the bags and puts them on the counter.  WTH?  When you have it IN YOUR HAND, why in the world would you not just put it where it belongs??

 

*sigh*  good thing I love him I guess... :blushing:

Edited December 15, 2015 by goldberry

[texasmama]

Depends on the dynamic between the two people prior to the dishwasher incidents.

 

I instruct the kids.  If dh does something wrong in the loading of the dishes (by wrong, I mean inefficient, facing the wrong way, etc), I change it without saying anything.  There are a lot of people living here so it can be hard to tell who has committed a dishwasher sin.  I typically just fix stuff to my liking unless I actually see someone doing it wrong.  I might tell dh why he needs to do it a certain way if I saw him in the act of putting it in.

 

None of this is a hot button topic at my house, though.

 

Hot button topics:  The inside of the microwave must always be clean. (dh)  I am the only one allowed to do laundry.  We all have our "thing".

[kbutton]

Why would you not want to know if you were doing something that caused the dishes not to be clean?  There is no reasonable explanation other than pride or stubbornness. The line about "don't tell me how to do it" should not apply to a measurable result like a dish being clean or dirty.  If the dish is dirty, it was done incorrectly.  End of story.

 

Times every other measurable task in the house...

 

And if the person can't "remember" how to do something correctly, it's their problem when they get corrected endlessly. That's not nagging on the part of the person in the know, it's intransigence in the person who doesn't want to be bothered to remember.

[Mimm]

Oh my goodness I've heard this argument SO many times. I think, regardless of who is in the right, the most important thing is that the discussion not happen when Person C (me) is around to have to listen to it.

[Forget-Me-Not]

I truly don't see what the problem would be with saying something like "hey, for future reference, if you put a cookie sheet on this side you block a sprayer and the dishes won't get as clean."

 

I'm a frequent re-arranger too. My kids are usually required to unload and reload, but I definitely come along and move things to maximize use of space, whether they've loaded it, DH has loaded it or I have loaded it. Nobody here cares.

[Anne in CA]

I hate like poison to load someone else's dishwasher. That is all.

[MomatHWTK]

I quit loading the dishwasher because I never got it "right." DH now has to load it almost exclusively.  I will do a load if it is just cups and things that aren't too dirty- otherwise, I gave up.    

[nd293]

I remind people to load the dishwasher efficiently when I see them doing it poorly, or when I know who did it. They may get cranky, they may or may not do what I ask, but I will point it out, because it does affect the outcome. In the end though, the person who runs the dishwasher (usually me) is responsible for shifting things around for the best possible wash.

[TechWife]

I had to think about this one for awhile. I read through some of the responses and gained some insight. My conclusion is that there are a great many variables to take into consideration and a blanket answer isn't possible.

For those of you who said a parent correcting their child is appropriate, I agree with that in general. However, you have to think through so much that could affect the outcome.

When I was a young teenager, I did quite a bit of chores because my parents worked on Saturdays. My Sat. Chore list looked like this:
Strip sheets off of all beds (1 double bed and two twin beds at that time) and make them with clean sheets immediately.
Wash, dry and fold the dirty sheets, put them in linen closet after the cleaning and drying
All floors had to be swept or vacuumed weekly,vynil floors were mopped as were the ceramic floors.
Dusted my parents room , dusted my bedroom, dusted living room, swept thr porch, put away Clutter that everyone makes .

So , mom checked the quality of my worked regularly - l krew she would come up with somethimhg. I clearly remember her looking at the hall bathroom and complaining that I missed a spot and it was not shiny enough. Now, I had done 70+ Tasks that dat in order to get all oh those chores done. I had also made lunch and had dinner ready for when they got home. My mom did not compliment me on doing a good job, nor did she thank me. But, I heard all about that missed spot for several weeks. That dynamic is the way confident kids are turned into kids who stop trying because in their minds, they can do their best work and still be a failure by not meeting expectations.

 

ETA: Over thirty years later, I still remember this - it was pretty foundational. Oh - I also did the entire family's laundry on Saturdays. I was a busy gal! 

Edited December 15, 2015 by TechWife

[mamakelly]

This happens in our house sometimes. I don't care if person B rearranges the dishes as long as they get clean. If dishes are consistently coming out dirty, then person A does need to see that their loading skills aren't working out so well.

[Catwoman]

I hate like poison to load someone else's dishwasher. That is all.

Yes, because however you do it, it will still be wrong. :D

[MyThreeSons]

Sincerely, if someone believes there is only one correct way to do something, they need to do it themselves.  

 

When we were first married, my dh told me I wasn't mopping the kitchen floor correctly. After all, he had been in the Navy, so he was trained to mop properly. At that moment, he became responsible for the floors in our house. 

 

I have a really cute picture somewhere of him showing a couple of our sons how to mop properly. 

[Tanaqui]

I don't have a dishwasher, so I'm just going to say that if you're person A, I'm on your side out of solidarity, and if you're person B I am likewise on your side out of solidarity.

 

Seriously, though, there's so much background context here that matters. Is Person A the sort of person who does things wrong in hopes of getting the moral credit for never doing it again? Does Person B the sort of person who tends to jump on little problems?

 

Alternatively, does Person A help out in really helpful ways lots of times? Does Person B usually let mistakes go, but today was super annoyed because it was an unreasonable amount of extra work?

 

With just these bare details, it's hard to know who is in the right. *shrug* But if both parties are usually mostly reasonable people, as I certainly hope is the case, then it should be possible to talk it over calmly later. (And for the record - I always get annoyed when people correct me, even if - especially if! - they're obviously right and I'm obviously wrong. And I always think I'm correcting people neutrally or gently, and only my family and friends ever really think I am, and I feel the same way about their statements.)

[kroe1]

If person A is a husband, then person B can present the solution as a problem.

 

Person B: Honey, something is wrong with our dishwasher. Look, it got this part clean, and these two things dirty. It is half broken.

 

Person B should continue this repeatedly until Person A figures it out. Then, Person A will prance around the house explaining to any potential dish loader exactly how it should be done. Actually, he will explain it even to those who are too young to load dishes, his next door neighbor, and a few of the dad's at soccer practice. With each explanation, his chest will puff out at the brilliance of his insight. He might even wonder why Kenmore did not ask him to write the product manual.

 

Person B just smiles to herself because job is accomplished.

[ThisIsTheDay]

If person A is a husband, then person B can present the solution as a problem.

 

Person B: Honey, something is wrong with our dishwasher. Look, it got this part clean, and these two things dirty. It is half broken.

 

Person B should continue this repeatedly until Person A figures it out. Then, Person A will prance around the house explaining to any potential dish loader exactly how it should be done. Actually, he will explain it even to those who are too young to load dishes, his next door neighbor, and a few of the dad's at soccer practice. With each explanation, his chest will puff out at the brilliance of his insight. He might even wonder why Kenmore did not ask him to write the product manual.

 

Person B just smiles to herself because job is accomplished.

 

There just aren't enough "likes" for this post!!

 

:D :D :D

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

OK, here come my replies.

 

Dirty things just get put right back in the machine cause we're lazy like that.... "stay there until you get clean!" 

 

This actually made me belly laugh! This is generally my take on the dishes that just refuse to get clean, but for most of things that don't get clean, once they go through a dry cycle, that stuff is only coming off with a chisel. I can put them back in repeatedly and they come out with the exact same gunk on them, so they have to be hand-washed (and usually with some soaking and extra elbow grease, which is the annoying part!). Hence the attempt to prevent the issue in the first place.

 

Separately, Person B should be annoyed that Person A thinks of loading the dishwasher as "doing someone a favor". I bet Person A buys or will buy people small appliances for their birthday. As a favor.

 

:lol: He doesn't, thankfully! Though I'm the kind of person who will ask for them :lol: 

 

We have a rule in our house that only one person can load a dishwasher.  We have a second rule that says if something doesn't get clean, the person who loaded it cleans it.

 

It's worked very, very well at avoiding all sorts of problems between both kids and adults.

 

I'm really convinced that two people can't load one dishwasher...

 

The issue here is that I've been working hard at trying to train everyone in the house to put their dishes in the dishwasher throughout the day instead of walking right PAST the dishwasher to put the dishes in the sink for "the maid" to deal with. It is taking years, but I'm finally, FINALLY starting to see a little bit of payoff. 

 

Wow, I don't even remember posting this, but it's definitely a common scenario in this house.  Are you me?  Am I you?

 

I don't think so, but frankly, there are some days where this might be a possibility!

 

Completely not helpful to this particular discussion, but I just hate it when family members think they're "helping out" by participating in cleaning the freakin' house that, you know, we ALL live in...

 

:cursing:

 

Sorry...a tender spot for me. :lol:

 

:lol: You're not the only person who suggested this. Actually, I'm the one who considers the house primarily my job, because DH works long days, and on his two days off, he's also working, plus taking the cars in, helping me run kids around, dealing with extended family issues, etc. For that reason, I refuse to touch anything outside the house or deal with any car work (unless it's some kind of emergency, of course). We all have our areas of expertise, and I'm not learning any new skills at this point! So his considering it helping me is because of the way I set things up--usually I'm the one telling him to go ahead to bed and leave it for me.

 

Well, I have a Married People Rule, and it's one of my most important ones.

And that is, "Do not EVER say, or otherwise take the position that you are 'helping me' by doing housework, implying as that does that doing housework is defined as my responsibility."  "EVER." 

 

And then there is the codicil, "Doing something incorrectly is not going to make me do it.  I am on to you, and wise to you, and not participating in the conveniently but falsely helpless routine."  And furthermore, "It was not my job to start with."  Plus, "I cannot find the butter any easier than you can.  We both know it is in the fridge.  Finding it does not take two people." 

 

Oh my goodness I've heard this argument SO many times. I think, regardless of who is in the right, the most important thing is that the discussion not happen when Person C (me) is around to have to listen to it.

 

:lol: :lol: :lol:

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Why would you not want to know if you were doing something that caused the dishes not to be clean?  There is no reasonable explanation other than pride or stubbornness. The line about "don't tell me how to do it" should not apply to a measurable result like a dish being clean or dirty.  If the dish is dirty, it was done incorrectly.  End of story.

 

Honestly, this has always been my take on it. Like, why would you even want to expend effort on something that will not work properly or will cause work for someone else? Wouldn't you rather know so you could make a tiny adjustment? You're ultimately doing the same amount of work yourself, you're just saving someone else effort down the line, which was the whole point anyway, wasn't it? I've learned, however, that many people do not agree with this mindset. 

 

I truly don't see what the problem would be with saying something like "hey, for future reference, if you put a cookie sheet on this side you block a sprayer and the dishes won't get as clean."

 

I'm a frequent re-arranger too. My kids are usually required to unload and reload, but I definitely come along and move things to maximize use of space, whether they've loaded it, DH has loaded it or I have loaded it. Nobody here cares.

 

Yes, the rearranging used to be a problem because DH saw it as a criticism of his work. We had a big fight about it and I finally got him to understand that I'm constantly moving ALL the dishes around in the dishwasher as things get added, because each thing changes the overall configuration! He gets it now, thankfully. (Though I admit that my eyes still roll around in my head when I pull open the top rack and see all the glasses and cups with an inch and half of space between each one, and all of them half tilted sideways. Normally he's very good with spatial reasoning, but I'm not at all sure how that continues to make sense to him.)

 

When we were first married, my dh told me I wasn't mopping the kitchen floor correctly. After all, he had been in the Navy, so he was trained to mop properly. At that moment, he became responsible for the floors in our house. 

 

I have a really cute picture somewhere of him showing a couple of our sons how to mop properly. 

 

I have to know, how exactly does one mop a floor correctly? I'm not even kidding. I really want to know! I've tried about a thousand different ways of mopping, and I'm still not satisfied :lol: 

 

If person A is a husband, then person B can present the solution as a problem.

 

Person B: Honey, something is wrong with our dishwasher. Look, it got this part clean, and these two things dirty. It is half broken.

 

Person B should continue this repeatedly until Person A figures it out. Then, Person A will prance around the house explaining to any potential dish loader exactly how it should be done. Actually, he will explain it even to those who are too young to load dishes, his next door neighbor, and a few of the dad's at soccer practice. With each explanation, his chest will puff out at the brilliance of his insight. He might even wonder why Kenmore did not ask him to write the product manual.

 

Person B just smiles to herself because job is accomplished.

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  Thankfully, he's not like that (generally). But don't think I'm not storing that away for future reference!

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

I had to think about this one for awhile. I read through some of the responses and gained some insight. My conclusion is that there are a great many variables to take into consideration and a blanket answer isn't possible.

 

For those of you who said a parent correcting their child is appropriate, I agree with that in general. However, you have to think through so much that could affect the outcome.

 

When I was a young teenager, I did quite a bit of chores because my parents worked on Saturdays. My Sat. Chore list looked like this:

Strip sheets off of all beds (1 double bed and two twin beds at that time) and make them with clean sheets immediately.

Wash, dry and fold the dirty sheets, put them in linen closet after the cleaning and drying

All floors had to be swept or vacuumed weekly,vynil floors were mopped as were the ceramic floors.

Dusted my parents room , dusted my bedroom, dusted living room, swept thr porch, put away Clutter that everyone makes .

 

So , mom checked the quality of my worked regularly - l krew she would come up with somethimhg. I clearly remember her looking at the hall bathroom and complaining that I missed a spot and it was not shiny enough. Now, I had done 70+ Tasks that dat in order to get all oh those chores done. I had also made lunch and had dinner ready for when they got home. My mom did not compliment me on doing a good job, nor did she thank me. But, I heard all about that missed spot for several weeks. That dynamic is the way confident kids are turned into kids who stop trying because in their minds, they can do their best work and still be a failure by not meeting expectations.

 

OK, and here is where we come to the heart of the matter. Believe it or not, the issue at hand is not whether/how DH participates around the house. It's about whether I'm overly controlling. My oldest is going through some stuff, and I've been spending a lot of time thinking about how I may have been/may be contributing to the problem. 

 

The dishwasher thing did actually come up yesterday morning. DH, of course, is Person A (the loader) and I am Person B (the critiquer). The thing he was doing was tilting all the plates forward instead of standing them up straight. I think that's actually how some washers (and maybe even our washer) are meant to be loaded, but in practice, it somehow prevents additional water from making it up to the second level, or something, and the stuff on the top level either picks up gunk or stays all filmy. It's weird, and I can't explain why it happens, but it does. I noticed that DH tilted the dishes the last couple of times when he wasn't doing that previously, so while we were in the kitchen, I mentioned, as neutrally as possible, that that doesn't work well in our dishwasher because it prevents the top level from getting clean. He took it well--made a joke, was probably ever so slightly annoyed, but we've worked through dishwasher issues in the past, so it was ultimately fine. 

 

BUT it got me thinking about criticism, and teaching someone to do a job well versus just having them do it at all, and whether putting emphasis on doing the job well might prevent them from doing it entirely, and whether it's even reasonable to assume that someone would even care to do a job well. I tend to think that most people want to do things to the best of their ability, but it honestly seems like many, if not most, people really don't. I don't know if that's a good thing or a bad thing? I want to teach my kids that they should always do their best, but I don't want them to take from that (like I did) that they should always do their best on everything, always, even if it means trying to keep 100 plates in the air at once.

 

Anyway! I know that was really a left turn from Marriage Rules and where the thread seemed to be heading, but the whole conversation got me thinking about my expectations. I think they're not out of line--as many of you pointed out, you'd comfortably correct a child who was learning to do the job. So for the average kid (and possibly adult), this kind of correction would actually be normal and expected. But with other kinds of kids, the correction would cause their shoulders to go up and for them to forever leave their dishes in the sink because they're too stressed about loading the dishwasher incorrectly. 

 

Sigh. Everything is under scrutiny here these days! 

 

Thank you all. That was a great discussion--it made me laugh, confirmed a few of my thoughts, and taught me a few new things. 

 

ETA: Techwife, I forgot to tie in your post! What you have described is exactly what I fear doing. I don't think I do (given the wreckage that is this house most days!), but I needed a reality check. I do want to teach the kids the right way to do things, because I don't want them to leave home without any functional homemaking skills. I had to learn all of this myself, and I'm still struggling with it. But I also don't want to set the expectation that the flaws are all I see. Sometimes it's hard to walk the line between giving "participation awards" and perfectionism. My dad is a perfectionist, and I grew up under that all-seeing, all-judging eye. I'm trying to find the middle ground. 

Edited December 15, 2015 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[beaners]

Wow, I don't even remember posting this, but it's definitely a common scenario in this house. Are you me? Am I you?

I showed my husband this thread and laughed...as he was loading the dishwasher. He didn't laugh quite as much.

[Rebel Yell]

Well, I have a Married People Rule, and it's one of my most important ones.

And that is, "Do not EVER say, or otherwise take the position that you are 'helping me' by doing housework, implying as that does that doing housework is defined as my responsibility."  "EVER." 

 

And then there is the codicil, "Doing something incorrectly is not going to make me do it.  I am on to you, and wise to you, and not participating in the conveniently but falsely helpless routine."  And furthermore, "It was not my job to start with."  Plus, "I cannot find the butter any easier than you can.  We both know it is in the fridge.  Finding it does not take two people." 

 

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/dishwasher

[Tsuga]

Jesus on Adderall. Lol! Yes.

 

Doing dishes is helping the home. Doing dishes your way in your time is helping you. You can't have total control and enforce a total anal retentive method that is all about how you think is best and say "but it's for the family so you have to feel bad if it's wrong!" That's not a fair deal IMO.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Tsuga

[ILiveInFlipFlops]

Jesus on Adderall. Lol! Yes.

 

Doing dishes is helping the home. Doing dishes your way in your time is helping you. You can't have total control and enforce a total anal retentive method that is all about how you think is best and say "but it's for the family so you have to feel bad if it's wrong!" That's not a fair deal IMO.

 

I'm not sure if this is directed at me, since it doesn't seem to address anything I've said here? If it is, I never said anything about it being for the family. In fact, I tell him not to worry about it, but he wants to help me so he does it anyway. And I'm not sure how explaining that a part of his method actually prevents the machine from doing its intended job (which I presume he also wants it to do) is anal retentive. If the dishwasher isn't getting the dishes clean, then what is the point of expending any energy on using it at all?

 

ETA: Or maybe you were referring to Carol's post? I'm so confused (as usual). 

Edited December 15, 2015 by ILiveInFlipFlops

[SKL]

My answer to the original post:  It depends on whether person A is likely to load that dishwasher in the future.  :)

 

I haven't read any updates.

 

If it's a houseguest or whatever, there is no point training him/her in that particular skill.

 

If it's someone who lives there and should know how to use the dishwasher, then train away.