Our shelter in place just got extended through May 30 and people are DONE

[sassenach]

This is going to be a little Bay area centric.

My county has been fairly good about SIP. We were in that group of counties that was first in the country to lock things down. At first it was very rah-rah, we're the smartest, we're the best. But...

A couple of weeks ago, we started seeing neighbors having friends over, but spaced out in their yards. That's fine with me. We're doing the same. We've had friends come sit on the other side of our fire pit in the back yard. They don't go in our house, they bring their own drinks and take their own trash. AFAIC, that's all within the spirit of the order though I know it's not the letter. 

This week, I passed by a full on block party. Thirty people in a front yard, no masks, spaced more like 3 ft apart, kids all on top of each other. They tried to open the beaches and it was completely packed. You can just feel it, people are done.

Then today they extended the order and the overwhelming reaction was NOPE. People are starting to make their own rules. Dh and I were talking about how we think the government will react. Double down on enforcement? Acquiesce? Dh predicts that they're going to ignore it. Pretend like everyone is following the orders when we all know that they're not.

Not sure where I'm going with this. Just wondering if you all are seeing the same thing.

[RootAnn]

I'm not sure my area was ever completely compliant, but my neighbors lately have stepped it up in having people over & not bothering about spacing.

If the weather improves, it will only get worse here, I bet. But, our area is loosening some restrictions next week, so I anticipate seeing more people out visiting than even now.

[J-rap]

I know people are weary of it here, but I think most people are still trying to do it right.  That's what I see, anyway.   On the other hand, we live in a northern climate with long dark winters and people are used to isolating during that time.  Now that the weather is finally starting to warm (we had our first 70 degree day yesterday!), it's going to be harder.

What I DO see is that people at first were being hyper-vigilant, and now have relaxed just a tiny bit on a few things.  For example, my sister told me the other day that she hugged my dad for the first time since this all began.  (He's 92 with congestive heart failure.)  We've all been really, really careful around him ~ only my sister and I visit him (on opposite days), and even then, we stay practically a room apart.  But she just felt that he really needed her hug and she did it.  Now she says she is going to hug him every time she sees him.  So, I guess those are the types of little changes I'm seeing.

(I still don't feel I can hug him, unfortunately, because I'm trying to keep my dh safe too.)

HOWEVER, my family (sister and brother and spouses, plus my dad) is thinking of planning a trip to a country lodge at the end of the summer, so....

[Laura Corin]

So far, I haven't seen anything like that.  The data show that people are driving a bit more than before.  The UK lockdown is due to be reviewed on May 7, but will not be lifted until the following criteria have been met:

• Protect the NHS's ability to cope and be confident that the NHS is able to provide sufficient critical care across the UK.
• See a sustained and consistent fall in daily death rates to be confident the UK is beyond the peak.
• Reliable data from Sage (government scientific committee) showing rate of infection is decreasing to manageable levels across the board.
• Confident that testing capacity and PPE are in hand with supply able to meet future demand.
• Confident that any adjustments to the current measures would not risk a second peak in infections which would overwhelm the NHS.

[Ausmumof3]

I haven’t been out to see but on social media is see just as many people asking for more restrictions rather than less especially around schools opening up.  We have had less severe restrictions than elsewhere.  It is enforceable by a fine.  A bunch of lads in a burnout group all managed to get themselves a $1600 fine for not social distancing.  I reckon the police probably felt quite happy about that because it’s a trouble spot and they don’t really have much power to deal with the bad driving behaviour.  However other than a couple of cases where they may have been heavy handed they are mostly just issuing cautions.  I think there’s a lot less apartment living etc here and most people have yards or parks they can access.  And because the cases are low it feels like there’s an end in sight.

[Meriwether]

My county has just started to get bad within the last week, but we are on our 7th week of being home, not under official SIP orders, just home. People are going to be tired of it long before it is done here.

[Arcadia]

40 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Then today they extended the order and the overwhelming reaction was NOPE. People are starting to make their own rules. Dh and I were talking about how we think the government will react. Double down on enforcement? Acquiesce? Dh predicts that they're going to ignore it. Pretend like everyone is following the orders when we all know that they're not.

Yesterday the news was out and people’s reaction was more of “I told you so”. People were expecting multiple extensions a week or two ago so they are already fed up. Schools are closed for the year so people are guessing that they would be working from home or unemployed until at least public schools reopen. 

What I understand is that the governor said counties cannot be less strict than the state so basically we are in SIP until California stop being in Stay At Home. 

[skimomma]

Everyone I know personally it taking the rules seriously.  We are in a hard hit state.  But there has been a blatant disregard for the rules by most of my local population from the start.  We are a very conservative area and many people simply dismiss anything our democrat governor says.  Kids are playing freely in the streets, most people have ignored the mask rules (including grocery store employees and shoppers), and some non-essential business stayed open with no consequences.  Our next door neighbors have had several large parties and some churches have continued services as usual the entire time.  The sheriff from a neighboring county stated on record to media that he would not enforce any of the governor's rules.  We still have almost no testing available so there is no telling what our numbers are.  We are in an area that is a complete afterthought in our state and I doubt there has been or will be any focus on tracking what is happening here until we hit crisis level.

[itsheresomewhere]

People are tired of it here.  Although, quite few of my neighbors have had friends, play dates and family over this entire time.  

[Tap]

Washington state is set to expire on May 4. I assume it will get extended. We were one of the first to go on lock down, so it has been well over a month here.

I am home with dd13 because she has been out of school for 2 months. She is special needs, so I can't just have someone else watch her. The past few weeks have been really, really hard on her. She has a stomach issue that results in a lot of pain, so she has been crying and moaning a lot. Combining that and shelter in place, and I just had to leave the house yesterday. I drove off in my car and went to the lake. I am not sure if the park was open or not (no signs) but I walked and then sat and talked to dd21 on the phone for a couple of hours. Then drove home a very long way LOL (15 min drive took about an hour). DD21 and I kept talking until  her husband got home close to midnight. When I checked my phone, we talked for over 5 hours. lol.  I feel much better today. 🙂 I really needed to get out of the house and disconnect from dd13 for a while. I think I am going to have to start leaving more without her and just go wander. I need a break from the house, but as sad as is sounds, I need a break from her more. 

ETA: Dh had got home from work, and ds was home to help as well, so I  was able to leave.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Tap

[SeaConquest]

We've had a couple local protests here in San Diego, which were basically thinly-veiled Trump rallies. People are weary, and there are some outspoken whiners, but most people are trucking along. They just recently partially reopened our parks and beaches/bays, so that will placate people for a bit.

Newsom said yesterday that they were going to have to start cracking down on enforcement after OC had 40k people at Newport Beach on Saturday. He's been pretty clear in his daily briefings about the standards that need to be met before the state can be reopened. Did people in the Bay area honestly think that things were reopening soon? That seems pretty unrealistic given what he's been saying all along about the metrics that need to be met. We are pretty far from hitting those targets.

Like most things in the US, I see this breaking down along party lines, though I have no clue why this has turned political. My more conservative friends/family are taking more risks and are complaining more; my more liberal friends, less so. Our behavior as a country seems particularly irrational to me.

Edited April 28, 2020 by SeaConquest

[vonfirmath]

1 hour ago, sassenach said:

This is going to be a little Bay area centric.

My county has been fairly good about SIP. We were in that group of counties that was first in the country to lock things down. At first it was very rah-rah, we're the smartest, we're the best. But...

A couple of weeks ago, we started seeing neighbors having friends over, but spaced out in their yards. That's fine with me. We're doing the same. We've had friends come sit on the other side of our fire pit in the back yard. They don't go in our house, they bring their own drinks and take their own trash. AFAIC, that's all within the spirit of the order though I know it's not the letter. 

This week, I passed by a full on block party. Thirty people in a front yard, no masks, spaced more like 3 ft apart, kids all on top of each other. They tried to open the beaches and it was completely packed. You can just feel it, people are done.

Then today they extended the order and the overwhelming reaction was NOPE. People are starting to make their own rules. Dh and I were talking about how we think the government will react. Double down on enforcement? Acquiesce? Dh predicts that they're going to ignore it. Pretend like everyone is following the orders when we all know that they're not.

Not sure where I'm going with this. Just wondering if you all are seeing the same thing.

 

Yes I honestly think its part of the calculation in opening up -- the people are going to do it with or without the government's permission.

 

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

. Did people in the Bay area honestly think that things were reopening soon?

They don’t which is why people are discontent. They know shelter in place is not going to be lifted anytime soon so they gave up. It’s harder to stay chirpy when there is no end in sight or you (general) think that the end of shelter in place would be next year.

My area is mainly Democrats or non-voters so it’s not so much political as people having cabin fever and giving up. 

[sassenach]

4 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

We've had a couple local protests here in San Diego, which were basically thinly-veiled Trump rallies. People are weary, and there are some outspoken whiners, but most people are trucking along. They just recently partially reopened our parks and beaches/bays, so that will placate people for a bit.

Newsom said yesterday that they were going to have to start cracking down on enforcement after OC had 40k people at Newport Beach on Saturday. He's been pretty clear in his daily briefings about the standards that need to be meet before the state can be reopened. Did people in the Bay area honestly think that things were reopening soon? That seems pretty unrealistic given what he's been saying all along about the metrics that need to be met. We are pretty far from hitting those targets.

Like most things in the US, I see this breaking down along party lines, though I have no clue why this has turned political. My more conservative friends/family are taking more risks and are complaining more; my more liberal friends, less so. Our behavior as a country seems particularly irrational to me.

My county is like 85% Dems, so I don’t think this is a party line issue at all. For us specifically, our numbers are pretty great so people are pissed that we are following harder hit counties like Santa Clara rather than following Napa, Sonoma, and Contra Costa, which are closer to us and more similar in numbers. 

[Arcadia]

@mathnerd expected, saw the reduction in force last week  😞

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/04/28/stanford-health-care-workers-furloughs-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/

“STANFORD (CBS SF) – Stanford Health Care workers are being forced to take mandatory furloughs during the coronavirus outbreak, which is basically asking frontline healthcare workers to take pay cuts during a crisis, according to the workers’ union.

In a news release Monday, Service Employees International Union United Healthcare Workers West said Stanford Health Care is requiring its employees to take 12 furlough days over a 10-week period. The workers were reportedly notified of the upcoming furloughs via email.

“We have been putting our lives on the line treating COVID-19 patients and Stanford Health is thanking us by cutting our pay and harming our families,” Chuck Fonseca, a nursing assistant with SEIU UHW said in a statement. “We had no warning that this was coming and there was no discussion. They just sent us an email out of the blue – and most of us are in shock that they would treat us this way.””

[SeaConquest]

1 minute ago, Arcadia said:

They don’t which is why people are discontent. They know shelter in place is not going to be lifted anytime soon so they gave up. It’s harder to stay chirpy when there is no end in sight or you (general) think that the end of shelter in place would be next year.

My area is mainly Democrats or non-voters so it’s not so much political as people having cabin fever and giving up. 

 

I think, in SD, people were mainly pissed that we are paying all this money and we couldn't even go in the water or enjoy our beautiful parks. The surfers were about to mutiny. As long as people can enjoy the outdoors, that is a major pressure release valve for us. We still can't sit on the beach, go recreational boating, or congregate in the parks (that is phase II), but people are at least allowed to kayak, surf, swim, hike, and enjoy sunset walks along the water, so that goes a long way for our mental health here.

[Carrie12345]

I think a lot of people are going to be really annoyed because, even when things aren’t called “SIP” or “Stay at Home”, the idea is still going to be that people should be staying home and limiting contact as much as possible. And there will continue to be people who do and people who don’t, but maybe tipping in the other direction.

 

[hopeallgoeswell]

I am in a little Washington town about 60 miles from Seattle. The first week the schools were closed and the next week when SIP orders were given was pretty quiet. After that, though, people have been out and about. Any store that has been deemed "necessary" by the governor and is open has a good number of people in it, especially older people. The past two weeks or so the total number has been increasing.  Even though fishing has been outlawed, I'm sure some are still doing it to feed their families.  People are walking and biking and kids are out playing with friends.

I was talking with a hair stylist yesterday. It took her a while to get unemployment (over a month) because of red tape, and she's not able to get any help for her business. If she can't pay for her chair, she loses it. I asked her if she is ready to start working again.  She said most definitely, but she is afraid the governor is going to extend the shutdown past May 4. I was talking to another business owner who has had a 50% drop in income. She can't pay her rent and the building owner isn't being very flexible. Kicking a renter out of a business space is easier for the owner than kicking a renter out of a residence is for a homeowner. 
 

People here are ready to get back to work.  We have more data now than we did 6 weeks ago and the numbers are not nearly as bad as originally predicted, especially in areas with high testing of anyone/antibody testing.  

[SeaConquest]

4 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd expected, saw the reduction in force last week  😞

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2020/04/28/stanford-health-care-workers-furloughs-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/

“STANFORD (CBS SF) – Stanford Health Care workers are being forced to take mandatory furloughs during the coronavirus outbreak, which is basically asking frontline healthcare workers to take pay cuts during a crisis, according to the workers’ union.

In a news release Monday, Service Employees International Union United Healthcare Workers West said Stanford Health Care is requiring its employees to take 12 furlough days over a 10-week period. The workers were reportedly notified of the upcoming furloughs via email.

“We have been putting our lives on the line treating COVID-19 patients and Stanford Health is thanking us by cutting our pay and harming our families,” Chuck Fonseca, a nursing assistant with SEIU UHW said in a statement. “We had no warning that this was coming and there was no discussion. They just sent us an email out of the blue – and most of us are in shock that they would treat us this way.””

 

My cohort in nursing school is still not being allowed back into the hospitals (liability issues), and we are being told by our nursing director that, unless we get our clinical hours completed by the end of our term, we will likely not graduate on time. Unlike most other states, the CA board of registered nursing is also not approving us to do simulations on mannequins because purportedly we have not been displaced. They are saying there is health corps, even though health corps hasn't taken a single student. My school has been forced to call over a hundred hospitals to prove displacement and file an appeal with the BRN. We still haven't heard the outcome.

Most of my friends that work in healthcare in CA have had their hours massively cut because, unless you work in a unit taking Covid patients, people have been too scared to seek care and/or their clinics/units were closed/repurposed. So, yeah, it is feast or famine out there. 

[sassenach]

Just now, SeaConquest said:

 

My cohort in nursing school is still not being allowed back into the hospitals (liability issues), and we are being told by our nursing director that, unless we get our clinical hours completed by the end of our term, we will likely not graduate on time. Unlike most other states, the CA board of registered nursing is also not approving us to do simulations on mannequins because purportedly we have not been displaced. They are saying there is health corps, even though health corps hasn't taken a single student. My school has been forced to call over a hundred hospitals to prove displacement and file an appeal with the BRN. We still haven't heard the outcome.

Most of my friends that work in healthcare in CA have had their hours massively cut because, unless you work in a unit taking Covid patients, people have been too scared to seek care and/or their clinics/units were closed/repurposed. So, yeah, it is feast or famine out there. 

I was wondering how things were going for you. We have a few schools that have been let back into clinicals but the president of our school won't let us. The Health Corps thing is BS. There's a FB group for Ca Students and it looks like there's a lawsuit starting to organize. https://www.facebook.com/groups/216961703013146/ Our SON director still thinks we're going to get concurrency waivers but I'm not so sure. They're talking about giving us incompletes on theory so we can complete them together with clinical. 

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why concurrency is the hill that they're choosing to die on.

[sassenach]

5 minutes ago, kand said:

 

When I say that it doesn’t matter if people want to be done, I’m not referring to fines or enforcement of rules, I’m referring to the virus itself. We can’t just decide to be done with this pandemic because it’s hard and harming us and our economy.  If people decide they’re done and start ignoring the rules en masse, it’s going to get much worse than it has been. 

It’s crazy. I think at this point we could have an astroid headed for our planet aimed to hit somewhere in the US, and people would split along political lines in their response to it. As you say, it’s totally irrational.

But the governor has said that California is looking at weeks left of shelter in place, not months, so I don’t know why there are so many people continuing this narrative that it’s going to be until next year.

No one believes him. I think that's obvious.

[KungFuPanda]

I understand getting tired of staying home, but I don’t get being SOOO tired that it’s worth the risk not to. What I’m trying to avoid by staying home is checking a loved one into a hospital to die alone. I can’t imagine getting so restless in the span of a few months that I’d want to roll the dice on that. I’m a raging extrovert and I’ve never been home this long AND I miss my daughter. Still, I’m not close to feeling like recreational socialization is worth my son or mother or neighbor or even a stranger dying in a hospital room without any family at their bedsides. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Just now, sassenach said:

No one believes him. I think that's obvious.

See, exactly.

I think it's good that the SIP is extended in that it helps people justify getting unemployment benefits or working from home.  Without that order it's considered your choice, and so the order provides cover.

I don't see a good path to reopening though, and that is what has me a bit restless.  Still complying though.

[sassenach]

1 minute ago, KungFuPanda said:

I understand getting tired of staying home, but I don’t get being SOOO tired that it’s worth the risk not to. What I’m trying to avoid by staying home is checking a loved one into a hospital to die alone. I can’t imagine getting so restless in the span of a few months that I’d want to roll the dice on that. I’m a raging extrovert and I’ve never been home this long AND I miss my daughter. Still, I’m not close to feeling like recreational socialization is worth my son or mother or neighbor or even a stranger dying in a hospital room without any family at their bedsides. 

Before this becomes another debate about how we personally feel about obeying or not obeying orders and the depravity of anyone who disagrees with us, is it ok if we keep this about observations about the culture around us? 

[Arcadia]

16 minutes ago, Plum said:

I think opening up has more to do with the Western States Pact. They will all be opening together or it won't work. I'm not sure they'll be able to get AZ on board. It just doesn't make sense to open CA while all of the states around it are still closed. People will travel and circulate it all over again. 

People aren’t thinking so much about the opening up part, as in traveling. People are tired of the shelter in place/stay at home part. I know people who are tired of their college kids being home and these people love their kids, just would rather colleges are reopened. Their college kids have their classes online so it’s not like they could go and work at Target and elsewhere (ETA: like during summer).

 

13 minutes ago, kand said:

But the governor has said that California is looking at weeks left of shelter in place, not months, so I don’t know why there are so many people continuing this narrative that it’s going to be until next year.

The governor did not say weeks left. He said he would reopen based on his six factor plan (https://www.gov.ca.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/California-Roadmap-to-Modify-the-Stay-at-Home-Order.pdf). He said that it could have been weeks left in a scolding tone. Despite being a democrat majority neighborhood, people generally don’t believe politicians of either party (including independents). 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Arcadia

[SeaConquest]

2 minutes ago, sassenach said:

I was wondering how things were going for you. We have a few schools that have been let back into clinicals but the president of our school won't let us. The Health Corps thing is BS. There's a FB group for Ca Students and it looks like there's a lawsuit starting to organize. https://www.facebook.com/groups/216961703013146/ Our SON director still thinks we're going to get concurrency waivers but I'm not so sure. They're talking about giving us incompletes on theory so we can complete them together with clinical. 

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why concurrency is the hill that they're choosing to die on.

 

Thanks. Yes, I am in that FB group. I recently applied for two temp CNA positions out of desperation to try to get some hours before the May 31st deadline because the BRN is approving some work experiences towards clinical hours. Many in my cohort work and have been able to get some work exp hours approved, but since I am a FT homeschooling mama, I don't work. But, given the cutbacks on hours due to low census, I doubt that I will get hired on as a CNA. Plus, I really have no clue why CNA hours would even count as equivalent to student nurse med-surg hours anyway, but whatever. I will take what I can get at this point. I don't care if I have to work NOC shift and then sleep while the kids school themselves on the iPad for the rest of the year. 😉 I agree with you, I don't think the BRN is going to waive the concurrency requirement. They could be doing so much more to help us, and they are just so stinking rigid. Our cohorts in other states are moving right along while us CA folks are stuck. I hope things get moving for you soon. ❤️ 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, RootAnn said:

I'm not sure my area was ever completely compliant, but my neighbors lately have stepped it up in having people over & not bothering about spacing.

If the weather improves, it will only get worse here, I bet. But, our area is loosening some restrictions next week, so I anticipate seeing more people out visiting than even now.

We are in Florida, so have been warm and nice and yeah, my neighbors never stopped socializing. Every night they are out there hanging out. Yes, the are outside, but they have their lawn chairs in a circle, each chair right next to the other. MAYBE 1-2 feet in between. Even knowing some were working at the grocery store, so high exposure. And now they have gone from just the three houses in a row socializing nightly to adding in people I've never seen before, so from other neighborhoods! And kids playing together. They are polite about it but I know they don't get why we don't join in . The one mentioned that they socialize "every night" as if that made it better? And yeserday was asking DH something while we were outside working on the yard and kept getting too close! DH kept backing up. So frustrating! 

Like, WHAT is so hard about 6 feet apart?!?! 

If they were hanging out in chairs 6 ft apart I'd not care. But this is annoying, and it upsets me especially since the one kid is living there to stay away from him mom, who is a nurse working on a COVID19 ICU floor! The woman sent her 4 yr old to live at grandma's, to keep him safer, and now he's out socializing with the neighbors every night!

And people in the stores are terrible, no one keeps a distance, lots not wearing masks, etc. 

[Arcadia]

My echocardiogram scheduler was told to postpone all April appointments to after June when she called me. I told her my insurance won’t pay for June so she let my appointment stay. Usually the echocardiogram unit is fully booked on all slots and I have taken 7:30am slots because those were the only ones left.  I think that there would be upset patients and their families over the postponements of appointments. 

My radiation scheduler was told to switch as many appointments to telemedicine as possible even for June appointments. I told the scheduler I have no where private to do it at home during their office hours. That I could postpone again if needed (appointment was originally in May)  because my insurance gives a bigger date range for end of radiation treatment follow up appointment. Besides my oncology surgeon has checked my lumpectomy and radiation area in early April so I am not worried. I would be worried if my oncology surgeon’s appointment was the one postponed.

[prairiewindmomma]

Medical is opening back up here, and that is taking some of the tension off. People want life to go back to normal but I hear mixed opinions on whether we can do safely do that or not. 

I am currently feeling a lot of pressure to commit to xyz summer activity or to commit to going to see my parents and it isn’t happening.  The fundamentals haven’t changed here. There is still no easy access to testing. 
 

I hope we can continue to work from home for months to come...I would much rather have a slow opening of everything else first.
 

[Arcadia]

3 minutes ago, kand said:

Which I guess is an example of no good deed goes on punished. The California governor responded quickly to the situation and as a result California did not end up being hit nearly as hard as would be expected for one of the first highly populated areas to be hit. 

The governor was SF Mayor, then Lieutenant Governor, then Governor. People do not forget easily.

[CAJinBE]

People are still being very cautious in Belgium. The fines are pretty high if caught out for nonessential reasons. But after May 4th when things open up a bit more, I think police will have trouble enforcing stay-at-home so people will break more rules. 

[TheReader]

Our state (Texas) just announced limited openings.

So -- what's the reaction been? A whole lot of "good luck, y'all, I'm not gonna be in the first wave....."  mixed with more willingness to get together with neighbors/friends. Somehow, gathering your neighbors together seems to feel safer to folks than going to the store or a restaurant to some people. 

Throughout the 7 or 8 weeks of this so far, none of the kids in our neighborhood have stopped playing in the street together., though the parents have mostly been social distancing (not entirely). People are trying to go 2 wks between shopping, and I'm seeing that continue even with the extended shopping hours our stores are offering now, so far. 

It's been a mixed bag of "I'm so ready to be waited on" and "I'm waiting to see if there's a new wave when things open." 

Within our family, my MIL at the beginning was watching our dogs (for Spring Break); when we went to pick them up, she stayed in her house, and just opened the front door to let the dogs out when we drove up. Now, we've gone and parked at the edge of her yard and eaten food (but she would not let us bring her anything), and she came and sat in the yard, about 12 feet away.  The week after that, she let us and SIL both come over under the same set-up (everyone ordered their own pizza, drinks, etc.). The week after that, we all took food and chairs and drinks and sat in SIL's back yard, same thing. She's reached a point where she's comfortable using their bathroom (or letting us use hers) as long as there are disinfectant wipes to wipe everything down before/after, but she's not comfortable with close contact with us still. SIL on the other hand is letting her kids go to sleep-overs at the neighbors. :shrug: 

So, a big mix. I've got friends talking about "If you had $100 for every person you knew personally with Covid-19, how much would you have? I bet it would be zero...."  and then I've got friends talking about "I wear my mask so you don't die in a hospital alone, and all I ask is that you do the same for me..."  I'm not so sure that's exactly "split along party lines" though....at least not here. I've got friends that I am 99% sure probably vote the same way, but on opposite sides of the aisle on this for whatever reason. 

[fairfarmhand]

What's making it hard at my house is that my dh and I have the policy that we'll wait a couple weeks after things open up a bit and we watch the numbers to decide our level of comfort with getting out. This is massively hard for my kids. Because other families are ready to go back to business as usual, Bible studies in homes, etc. And I've told my kids to hang on just a few more weeks till there's hard evidence about what's going to play out. 

The totally understand the wisdom of that position. But they still are sad and lonely. They miss their friends and it's harder when they see that their friends are having fun things and they can't.

So yeah...

Edited April 28, 2020 by fairfarmhand

[vonfirmath]

4 minutes ago, TheReader said:

Our state (Texas) just announced limited openings.

So -- what's the reaction been? A whole lot of "good luck, y'all, I'm not gonna be in the first wave....."  mixed with more willingness to get together with neighbors/friends. Somehow, gathering your neighbors together seems to feel safer to folks than going to the store or a restaurant to some people. 

Throughout the 7 or 8 weeks of this so far, none of the kids in our neighborhood have stopped playing in the street together., though the parents have mostly been social distancing (not entirely). People are trying to go 2 wks between shopping, and I'm seeing that continue even with the extended shopping hours our stores are offering now, so far. 

It's been a mixed bag of "I'm so ready to be waited on" and "I'm waiting to see if there's a new wave when things open." 

Within our family, my MIL at the beginning was watching our dogs (for Spring Break); when we went to pick them up, she stayed in her house, and just opened the front door to let the dogs out when we drove up. Now, we've gone and parked at the edge of her yard and eaten food (but she would not let us bring her anything), and she came and sat in the yard, about 12 feet away.  The week after that, she let us and SIL both come over under the same set-up (everyone ordered their own pizza, drinks, etc.). The week after that, we all took food and chairs and drinks and sat in SIL's back yard, same thing. She's reached a point where she's comfortable using their bathroom (or letting us use hers) as long as there are disinfectant wipes to wipe everything down before/after, but she's not comfortable with close contact with us still. SIL on the other hand is letting her kids go to sleep-overs at the neighbors. :shrug: 

So, a big mix. I've got friends talking about "If you had $100 for every person you knew personally with Covid-19, how much would you have? I bet it would be zero...."  and then I've got friends talking about "I wear my mask so you don't die in a hospital alone, and all I ask is that you do the same for me..."  I'm not so sure that's exactly "split along party lines" though....at least not here. I've got friends that I am 99% sure probably vote the same way, but on opposite sides of the aisle on this for whatever reason. 

 

Ah. On my facebook, I've seen people opening stores even before they were officially allowed to. And going to restaurants, that were dine in (and note it does not take eeffect until May 1)

[barnwife]

Well, I've only gone somewhere twice since mid-March, so I don't have a good feel for what the culture here is like. But, we did pick up take-out on one of those trips, and I will say that not a single worker in that restaurant (that I saw) had a face mask. We won't be using them again any time soon. The parking lots of the local grocery store and Wal-mart both looked decently full.  So did the gas station. It was a nice day, so I saw a lot of people in yards with no masks. But I didn't see any large groups or anything that looked like socializing. It just seemed like people doing yard work (mowing, weeding, etc...), so them not wearing masks in their own yards doesn't bother me.

[TheReader]

13 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Medical is opening back up here, and that is taking some of the tension off. People want life to go back to normal but I hear mixed opinions on whether we can do safely do that or not. 

I am currently feeling a lot of pressure to commit to xyz summer activity or to commit to going to see my parents and it isn’t happening.  The fundamentals haven’t changed here. There is still no easy access to testing. 
 

I hope we can continue to work from home for months to come...I would much rather have a slow opening of everything else first.
 

My oldest is planning to work at a summer camp, where he worked last year. The camp is operating under a "things will be totally normal" assumption, and planning on training starting May 11th. How on earth that fits with state guidelines I have no idea; I wish they'd outline their plan for handling the inevitable delay, and how they plan to run camp in a safe manner that follows social distancing guidelines. 

Our state "Open Texas" order that went out just now opened "outdoor sports with 4 or fewer participants" so the basketball goals and things at parks aren't even supposed to open yet, until there are at least 2 weeks of good numbers after the opening of tennis courts. HOW the camp thinks ropes course, zip lines, bunk rooms.., lunch rooms with only 25% capacity (or even 50%) is going to mean "camp like normal" is beyond me. 

(Our state DOES have good, easy access to testing up and running, sufficient hospital capacity, sufficient PPE, etc.)

And yes, DH definitely hopes to work from home for the long term. his company is being very proactive and slow to reopen, as their owned by Italians who of course were much harder hit than us. Their plan to reopen sounds very good; I trust it. I do not trust the camp at all and am so hesitant to let DS go work for them (acknowledging it's not actually my choice as he is, of course, an adult). 

[TheReader]

4 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

 

Ah. On my facebook, I've seen people opening stores even before they were officially allowed to. And going to restaurants, that were dine in (and note it does not take eeffect until May 1)

Yikes, really? The only store I know that has been "open" despite sort of not being permitted is my local quilt shop; she's listed as a "studio" so wasn't allowed to stay open like the big box stores have been. She's been continuing with curb side only during this time. I've not seen any stores actually *open* who weren't allowed. 

And I've seen/heard of only one restaurant doing "dine in" and it was patio seating only, and reduced number of tables spaced further apart. Lots of curb side, though (and heavily leaning towards the places that offer margaritas to go, at least in my area....)

 

[frogger]

1 hour ago, SeaConquest said:

We've had a couple local protests here in San Diego, which were basically thinly-veiled Trump rallies. People are weary, and there are some outspoken whiners, but most people are trucking along. They just recently partially reopened our parks and beaches/bays, so that will placate people for a bit.

Newsom said yesterday that they were going to have to start cracking down on enforcement after OC had 40k people at Newport Beach on Saturday. He's been pretty clear in his daily briefings about the standards that need to be met before the state can be reopened. Did people in the Bay area honestly think that things were reopening soon? That seems pretty unrealistic given what he's been saying all along about the metrics that need to be met. We are pretty far from hitting those targets.

Like most things in the US, I see this breaking down along party lines, though I have no clue why this has turned political. My more conservative friends/family are taking more risks and are complaining more; my more liberal friends, less so. Our behavior as a country seems particularly irrational to me.

 

 

It is the media they consume, pure and simple.  My MIL was actually worried about this virus in January when a plane from Wuhan stopped here in Anchorage. She bought the kids travel size hand sanitizer because we had to travel in February but now of course it's just overblown hogwash used to control the states. The difference is only that her news sources are talking about it now. 

 

Edited to add, I am a small government conservative who takes this seriously but I recognize crazy media when I see it. I cannot tell you the number of fake stories and conspiracy theories I am subjected to through family. I completely understand those who have legit concerns about costs of closing. What I hate is the "it's no big deal, masks are for pansies" crowd. I'm not talking about people here but rather my own family. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by frogger

[Loowit]

There is a lot of grumbling around here.  Many people never followed the rules anyway.  A lot of our neighbors had big parties on Easter and continue to have large groups over with little to no social distancing.  Most people at the stores are not wearing mask or even really attempting to follow distancing unless a staff member calls them on it.  My mom said that the small (and only) store in her town is doing more business than usual.  No social distancing, no masks, just crowds of people visiting and acting like nothing is going on.

[frogger]

44 minutes ago, kand said:

 

Which I guess is an example of no good deed goes on punished. The California governor responded quickly to the situation and as a result California did not end up being hit nearly as hard as would be expected for one of the first highly populated areas to be hit. 

He clearly said that California was looking at weeks and not months away from loosening restrictions. He did warn that could change if people do not follow social distancing rules. Which is true. And it’s what’s especially frustrating to me in my area; we are close to be able to ease up on things, but people deciding that they’re just not willing to be patient so that we can do this successfully could ruin it for everyone. Gov. Newsom: Changes to Virus Order May Come Within Weeks

 

Agree. Because it looks like no big deal with small numbers people won't be as cautious with the simple things that could make a difference so then the harder top down things are implemented. Why do people have to experience things first hand to learn from them?

[mathnerd]

50 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

I think, in SD, people were mainly pissed that we are paying all this money and we couldn't even go in the water or enjoy our beautiful parks. The surfers were about to mutiny. As long as people can enjoy the outdoors, that is a major pressure release valve for us. We still can't sit on the beach, go recreational boating, or congregate in the parks (that is phase II), but people are at least allowed to kayak, surf, swim, hike, and enjoy sunset walks along the water, so that goes a long way for our mental health here.

I think that in California, when the weather gets warmer, all that the people want to do (cultivated habit) is to go to the beach 🙂 That contributes to the throng in Newport beach and Long Beach this week.

Loosening restrictions means nothing to people who work in non-essential jobs. We might be able to go shopping, to get a haircut or even to the dentist and doctor. But, we are going to stay home for the rest of the time and work from home while educating our kids no matter what the schools offer as online instruction. We are all working harder because it is difficult to do some jobs from home and the work pressure is high due to a looming downturn. We know that the kids will not be going to summer camps (which is a huge part of the parent's childcare system here) and they are not going back to school in the Fall and that their school instruction will be impacted and the parents will have to make up for it. Some big employers already told their staff to expect this to go on "for a while". People are predicting that there will be a second wave of COVID19 in the Fall when the regular flu season hits and that there will be more restrictions again at that time. This is a huge burden for people to bear along with the anxiety about the pandemic. Since we are expecting to live like this for at least 6 months, people are starting to drive to beaches where their kids can step outside safely, stop by neighbor's houses for a chat while maintaining distance etc. Most people in my area are still in 100% compliance of the SIP and the roads are empty and kids are indoors or in the backyards. I am not seeing any pool parties or block parties yet.

In my city, I noticed that sheriff's deputies gave out masks to people who were walking without them and advised them that it is not a good idea to walk without protection. It seems that the enforcement will take the form of education in my area.

 

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Our order was recently extended to May 16th (at the earliest), but the pattern has been to add time in two week increments, so I predict it will soon be extended to May 30th (or at least through Memorial Day). I'm definitely seeing more and more evidence that people are fed up. I live in the mountains, and personally have had no trouble abiding with the stay-home order (I've mostly enjoyed it), but I'm currently leaning more toward the "enough already" group.  I could be persuaded back toward supporting the lock-down if given more information from those in charge. Our (democrat) governor (New Mexico) just keeps tacking on two weeks at a time, saying to hold out for two more weeks, then two more weeks, then two more weeks, but never says exactly what we're waiting for, what the exit plan is, or what difference two more weeks is going to make. I don't understand why they can't give us some pegs on which to hang our hats, some benchmarks we can see with our own eyes, rather than just trying to keep the fear level up. I don't appreciate being kept in the dark. (I see from this thread that some government officials are being more transparent. I would appreciate the same for our state, given our sparse population, and arid environment.

I feel like our government sees us as little children or "pretty little wives" who "shouldn't worry our pretty little heads", but just trust and let the experts take care of things. We're not children, and we're perfectly capable of understanding what is going on. I can look at this thing and see that we're looking at months, not weeks. The flatter the curve, the longer the duration. Simple math. Why do they keep saying "two more weeks", over and over again? If we're going to be closed all summer, then say so, so we can plan accordingly. If they don't see a safe way to open schools in the fall, then say so. (Our daughter is in private school, and we need to decide by May 15th whether to keep her enrolled, or pull her out to homeschool her. That decision is heavily weighted by whether she will being doing school online or in person).

People are also more and more fed up with inconsistencies in what activities are considered "essential" verses what is really essentially safe.  A mayor of a small town nearby (Grants, NM) is openly opposing the governor's shelter order, encouraging the small businesses in his town to open (with physical distancing procedures), and opening the town golf course. The town sheriff was shopping at the pawn shop (which is only allowing one customer in at a time, and is cleaning everything they touch when they leave). The mayor was directing the news camera to pan over the vast golf course, saying "You want social distancing? How's that for social distancing?"  (20 people total on the course, the whole day). The state police brought a cease and desist order, but the mayor said he's gonna keep letting people play golf, even if he has to sue the state. He was asking the question, "Why is it dangerous to work at City Hall, but okay to work in Walmart?" 

Another thing happening that the government doesn't talk about is that the healthcare system (outside the ICU) is almost completely shut down. No one gets any health services unless they have COVID, or under extreme emergencies. Medical professionals are being furloughed. Doctors, dentists, and eye doctors' offices are all closed. Entire floors of hospitals are closed down. Only the most critical patients are getting any care at all. I know one person who was in extreme pain for two weeks, but was sent home from the ER twice before finally being allowed an MRI, which showed stones in her bile duct, as well as her gall bladder). Other people have had their needed surgeries and procedures postponed indefinitely (My FIL had cataract surgery scheduled in March - "elective" doesn't mean boob jobs). They say they don't want to "overwhelm" the healthcare system, but they're killing it instead. The doctors' offices were already so backed up in the US that they were scheduling out 4-6 months, or longer. When they open back up, they will be backed up for a year or more!  Talk about overwhelmed!

I haven't joined the "rebels" yet, but I'm actually leaning toward the "Bring it on" stage, honestly. With no vaccine, the only way out of this thing is natural immunity. Since it's a novel virus, the only way to get immunity is to get the virus and recover. The only way to build the herd immunity we need to protect society is for a whole lot of people to become immune. I actually believe my family had it back in December, but without a reliable, readily available antibody test, there's no way to know for sure. Here in NM, the vast majority (over 95%) of people who have gotten COVID-19 have recovered at home, with no hospitalization, and our numbers in general are relatively good. I think most people are just willing to take the risk. Let the high-risk people stay home. Let the healthy people with strong immune systems get it, recover, become immune, and build that herd immunity sooner, rather than later. 

Remember Chicken Pox parties? Back before there was the varicella vaccine, moms would make play dates with contagious chicken pox kids in order to expose their own kids to the virus. It was well known that everyone was going to get it eventually, and getting it young was much preferable to getting it as an adult, or even as a teen. Getting it on purpose gave some sense of control over the situation. 

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I am nervous about the level of government control this situation is creating. We have almost every business in the country in debt to the government (these are loans, not assistance). We have the healthcare system (which was already severely handicapped) essentially shut down. We have the populace in fear for their lives.  And we potentially have a bankrupt government, going in debt and printing money.  The government would like to control every aspect of the reopening. These things bother me way more than the virus itself, but I guess that's fodder for a different thread. 

[Donna]

Our governor extended the stay at home order until May 8th. The past few days we have noticed way more cars on the road than previously. I think a few more businesses opened up downtown as well (a fudge shop, clothing stores, etc...) but not sure if what I saw on fb meant they were opening this week or on May 8th (I didn't read it closely because I have no plans to leave home for more than my nightly neighborhood walk).

Dd and I take a walk every night and every night there is one home with a group of 8-10 youngish people drinking and barbecuing in the backyard some nights it looks like they just got off their boat because some are hosing off the boat. No social distancing. Last night we walked past 3-4 other homes with their front porches full of people. Not 6 feet apart. No masks.

It feels like people are just done. There aren't many cases in our county so maybe they feel the risk is not high. I look at it as there aren't many cases because we've been staying home.

[Pam in CT]

re how closely the virus has come to the house

18 minutes ago, TheReader said:

...

So, a big mix. I've got friends talking about "If you had $100 for every person you knew personally with Covid-19, how much would you have? I bet it would be zero...."  and then I've got friends talking about "I wear my mask so you don't die in a hospital alone, and all I ask is that you do the same for me..."  I'm not so sure that's exactly "split along party lines" though....at least not here. I've got friends that I am 99% sure probably vote the same way, but on opposite sides of the aisle on this for whatever reason. 

I expect that does make all the difference.  I'm in a hot spot. I'd have more than $1000 myself, and I know several people for whom that number would be substantially higher.  

(Just minutes ago my 17 yo daughter came downstairs and told me that one of her classmates appeared on ZOOM class this morning all masked up in his own house. His father has it; the father is sorta-isolated in one bedroom and all the other family members are doing their best to not contract.)

 

This is really tiresome. Everyone's tired. Everyone's done.

The virus isn't done.

Yesterday the global total crossed 3M cases, The US total is 1M cases. With less than 5% of the world's population we have 1/3 of of the world's confirmed cases. Sure, there are data issues. 

[frogger]

I do understand those reasons Suzanne in ABQ.

 

 There is controlling a populace and their is influencing a populace. Control would include imprisonment and wielding doors closed. 

Influencing would be more the Swedish model where people did distance but had choices.

Americans want freedom and not to be told what to do. But a large number appear to be unable to handle any difficulty or sacrifice. I realize some are sacrificing more than others but really I want to ask, " How did you think we would get through this with no sacrifice at all?" Because I can't figure out how that works.

[sassenach]

9 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

I think that in California, when the weather gets warmer, all that the people want to do (cultivated habit) is to go to the beach 🙂 That contributes to the throng in Newport beach and Long Beach this week.

Loosening restrictions means nothing to people who work in non-essential jobs. We might be able to go shopping, to get a haircut or even to the dentist and doctor. But, we are going to stay home for the rest of the time and work from home while educating our kids no matter what the schools offer as online instruction. We are all working harder because it is difficult to do some jobs from home and the work pressure is high due to a looming downturn. We know that the kids will not be going to summer camps (which is a huge part of the parent's childcare system here) and they are not going back to school in the Fall and that their school instruction will be impacted and the parents will have to make up for it. Some big employers already told their staff to expect this to go on "for a while". People are predicting that there will be a second wave of COVID19 in the Fall when the regular flu season hits and that there will be more restrictions again at that time. This is a huge burden for people to bear along with the anxiety about the pandemic. Since we are expecting to live like this for at least 6 months, people are starting to drive to beaches where their kids can step outside safely, stop by neighbor's houses for a chat while maintaining distance etc. Most people in my area are still in 100% compliance of the SIP and the roads are empty and kids are indoors or in the backyards. I am not seeing any pool parties or block parties yet.

In my city, I noticed that sheriff's deputies gave out masks to people who were walking without them and advised them that it is not a good idea to walk without protection. It seems that the enforcement will take the form of education in my area.

 

You’re on to something there. 

My dd in Santa Cruz tells me that there new order will put a 15mi limit on those who can go to the beach. It’s the SC dream- the beach to themselves with no tourists. 

[EmseB]

I definitely don't think this has to do with political parties. I have several neighbors who are anti-trump, liberal, etc., who have been trying to kindly and gently persuade me to let my kids play with the teeming hoards since this started. I would bet I'm the most conservative person on my block and I'm not going anywhere and my kids have to watch everyone else in the neighborhood having fun since it's now 90+ degrees out and everyone loves a good run through the sprinkler. But I'm doing what I would be doing regardless of what the government says. 

[EmseB]

5 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re how closely the virus has come to the house

I expect that does make all the difference.  I'm in a hot spot. I'd have more than $1000 myself, and I know several people for whom that number would be substantially higher.  

(Just minutes ago my 17 yo daughter came downstairs and told me that one of her classmates appeared on ZOOM class this morning all masked up in his own house. His father has it; the father is sorta-isolated in one bedroom and all the other family members are doing their best to not contract.)

 

This is really tiresome. Everyone's tired. Everyone's done.

The virus isn't done.

Yesterday the global total crossed 3M cases, The US total is 1M cases. With less than 5% of the world's population we have 1/3 of of the world's confirmed cases. Sure, there are data issues. 

Yeah, data issues is an understatement there. I wonder how different things would look if we had China and Russians real numbers. Or even anything close to real numbers. By all accounts our numbers are low. I can't imagine what the true toll is in China.

[frogger]

1 minute ago, EmseB said:

I definitely don't think this has to do with political parties. I have several neighbors who are anti-trump, liberal, etc., who have been trying to kindly and gently persuade me to let my kids play with the teeming hoards since this started. I would bet I'm the most conservative person on my block and I'm not going anywhere and my kids have to watch everyone else in the neighborhood having fun since it's now 90+ degrees out and everyone loves a good run through the sprinkler. But I'm doing what I would be doing regardless of what the government says. 

 

This is good for me to hear because I come from a very conservative area and a lean right somewhat and so I mostly see the angry "I can do what I want people" on one side. Many of my other Conservative friends are working their butt off to be responsible though and I don't see much of the other side in person. 

[SeaConquest]

14 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I definitely don't think this has to do with political parties. I have several neighbors who are anti-trump, liberal, etc., who have been trying to kindly and gently persuade me to let my kids play with the teeming hoards since this started. I would bet I'm the most conservative person on my block and I'm not going anywhere and my kids have to watch everyone else in the neighborhood having fun since it's now 90+ degrees out and everyone loves a good run through the sprinkler. But I'm doing what I would be doing regardless of what the government says. 

 

There have been many articles that I have read about partisan differences in behavior and risk perception related to the virus.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/upshot/red-blue-workplace-differences-coronavirus.html

Democrats and Republicans differ on attitudes toward coronavirus risks and in workplace behaviors meant to reduce them, according to a new survey. This partisanship has the potential to hurt efforts to stop the spread of the virus.

The data from Gallup’s Covid-19 tracking panel shows that people deemed essential workers are generating large numbers of close contacts with other people, putting themselves and those they live with at risk. Recognizing this, most workers have changed how they do their jobs to reduce the risk of viral transmission.

Yet workers living in counties won by President Trump in the 2016 election are slightly less likely to have adopted these changes, with Republicans living in those counties even less likely to have done so.

Over several weeks in April, the survey shows, essential workers generated 22 contacts per day compared with only four per day for nonessential workers. (Contacts were defined as the number of people a respondent came within six feet of.) As expected, the workplace accounted for more of the essential workers’ contacts than any other location. But the workplace was the site of hardly any contacts for nonessential workers, most of whom are working from home, if at all.

Over all, essential workers are not taking the risks of transmission lightly. The majority (55 percent) say they are moderately or very concerned about being exposed to the virus at work. Eighty percent of essential workers say they have changed how they do their work to lower the risk of transmission — and those who say they have made such changes generate fewer close contacts than those who haven’t. These efforts include trying to maintain at least six feet of distance from customers and co-workers, using masks and gloves, and adopting new and more frequent cleaning practices.

Yet these attitudes also vary by political geography. Essential workers who identify with the Democratic Party are more likely to be concerned about getting the virus (66 percent) than their Republican Party counterparts (45 percent). They also have far greater confidence in social distancing. Three out of four (73 percent) essential workers who affiliate with the Democratic Party say that they are very confident that social distancing saves lives, compared with 27 percent of essential workers who identify as Republicans.

For members of both parties, living in a county won by the president substantially reduces confidence in social distancing. Democrats living in counties won by Mr. Trump are 15 percentage points less likely to say they are very confident that social distancing saves lives compared with Democrats living in counties won by Hillary Clinton.

These partisan differences are predictive of actual worker behavior, although with a more modest effect.

Republican workers in Trump counties are less likely than their Republican counterparts in Clinton-won counties to say they have made changes to avoid transmission (74 percent versus 82 percent), and both groups are less likely to say they have made changes than Democrats in Trump-won counties (85 percent) or Clinton-won counties (89 percent). The use of personal protective equipment at work fits the same pattern.

The pattern doesn’t always hold perfectly. Most Republican workers in Trump-won counties report trying to maintain at least six feet of distance from customers and co-workers (55 percent). That’s higher than the rate for Republicans in Clinton-won counties (47 percent), but it’s still well below Democrats in Clinton-won counties (70 percent).

One potential explanation for the partisan patterns is that some Republican Party leaders or media pundits are playing down the severity of the risks. Another is that population density and the number of confirmed cases and deaths are lower on a per-capita basis in the counties won by Mr. Trump. But in the data, there is no significant correlation between county disease prevalence and adoption of these countermeasures.

Moreover, while cases and deaths have been lower in Trump-won counties, the growth rate in new cases since April 11 is roughly the same in Trump-won and Clinton-won counties, suggesting that the need to reduce transmission could be just as urgent in these areas.

As debates go on about when and how to reopen the economy, essential workers and their employers are developing best practices to combat the spread of coronavirus. But it will be hard to do so without cooperation and collective action across diverse communities. Because the virus knows no borders, outbreaks in liberal areas will put conservative areas at risk and vice versa.

Edited April 28, 2020 by SeaConquest