Our shelter in place just got extended through May 30 and people are DONE

[Arcadia]

16 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

 

In my city, I noticed that sheriff's deputies gave out masks to people who were walking without them and advised them that it is not a good idea to walk without protection. It seems that the enforcement will take the form of education in my area.

Nice 🙂 

I am seeing many using handkerchiefs as masks. CVS sells for $1.99 each for the thin earloop kind, limit 1 (or 2 with CVS card) per customer.  I am seeing sheriff cars at emptier strip malls, fire engines with the firemen buying groceries and lunch as usual, CHP on the freeways. My area is predominantly rental apartments so people are out since apartment facilities (gym, pool, tennis courts, basketball courts) are closed so they are all "gathering" at any open fields. 

[mathnerd]

1 minute ago, Arcadia said:

CVS sells for $1.99 each for the thin earloop kind, limit 1 (or 2 with CVS card) per customer.  

Thank you! I know many who want to buy masks but are wearing kitchen towel masks because they don't know where to buy them. I will direct them to CVS 🙂

[Anne]

my dad is over 90 and he definitely has a jaundiced view of the shutdowns - he doesn't frequent very many crowded places anyway, but he is still going to the grocery store (definitely no mask) and having friends over to throw horseshoes and play cribbage.  He says he has no idea how many months of life he has left, but he's not spending them in fear and isolation.  

I'm guessing he's not the only senior citizen that feels this way.

Anne

[Moonhawk]

We're waiting for our governor's orders for may, since our stay at home order expires May 1. 

For weeks my parents have been oscillating between frustration and tears, asking me to let kids come over, that this whole thing is way overblown and everyone is overreacting. It's actually been disturbing how little they seem to grasp or care about the human cost we potentially face. Regardless of  what the order is I have a feeling my parents are going to do what they want (if they aren't already. They tell me they are only grocery shopping once a week but I really doubt it). Their main reason for caring about what he says is because I'll follow the guidelines, and they'll be frustrated if I don't let them see the kids for even longer. They actually tried to get a hotel in my town this week to come and visit us since I won't take the kids to them; I said if they did so I wouldn't let them see the kids anyway. They grudgingly didn't follow through but I got tons of woe-is-them calls and texts. 

My husband is also med/high-risk, and they think me caring about that is ridiculous since they are high-risk and don't care about it for themselves. I don't feel comfortable going against stay-at-home, we are in a rural-ish area and I see it as the ideal situation to stay safe and help others stay safe, NOT a reason we can be lax ourselves. I wish my own strength of will was strong enough to follow it through regardless of the governor's order, but realistically I need my parents' cooperation and support long term right now, and if the order is loosened I will have to compromise. 

 

[Arcadia]

7 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

Thank you! I know many who want to buy masks but are wearing kitchen towel masks because they don't know where to buy them. I will direct them to CVS 🙂

They are supposedly very thin.

 

[mathnerd]

2 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

They are supposedly very thin.

 

Thank you, again. I will be sure to let them know that the masks are not high quality. I am sure that they are better than wearing towels and scarfs for going out for walks, I guess.

[SeaConquest]

This was the protest in my little beach community this weekend. It was mostly attended by people who were not local to our part of SD, and, along with the Trump folks, there were plenty of antivaxxers, conspiracy theorists, and white supremacists. They rented AirBnBs and came here to get away from the oppressive heat inland. Most of us locals, including our city councilmember, were pretty annoyed about the whole thing. https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/politics/story/2020-04-26/hundreds-gather-in-pacific-beach-for-anti-lockdown-protest-100-new-covid-19-cases-reported-in-region

[EmseB]

9 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

There have been many articles that I have read about partisan differences in behavior and risk perception related to the virus.

 

Sure. I'm just saying it isn't my experience here. I'm not trying to prove or disprove anyone's data, just that I'd love it if my liberal, anti-trump neighbors were more risk averse when it comes to this thing. Also, by way of the data and surveys, I guarantee that the way they would answer survey questions or what they say they feel and do about distancing measures is different than what they are actually doing.

[Happy2BaMom]

50 minutes ago, Suzanne in ABQ said:

 

 

Nm.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Happy2BaMom

[GoodGrief]

37 minutes ago, Suzanne in ABQ said:

 

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I am nervous about the level of government control this situation is creating. We have almost every business in the country in debt to the government (these are loans, not assistance). We have the healthcare system (which was already severely handicapped) essentially shut down. We have the populace in fear for their lives.  And we potentially have a bankrupt government, going in debt and printing money.  The government would like to control every aspect of the reopening. These things bother me way more than the virus itself, but I guess that's fodder for a different thread. 

Not going to quote your whole post, but I completely understand. My two young adult daughters are in ABQ now, along with my son-in-law. My SIL has gone from working 80+ hours a week, as a truck driver delivering to restaurants, to being laid off from his job and getting 0-32 hours per week in temp work. My oldest daughter has been accepted to grad school at UNM and given a grad assistant position that makes it affordable, but there's a big question mark now as to the future funding for those positions. She's suddenly the primary breadwinner in the family because she does childcare for an ER doc. My college student, who had to relocate to NM from her East Coast school to live with her sister, has had ongoing respiratory issues but has been unable to get ongoing in-person care (after she was tested for the virus and found negative) because of the current medical situation.

We have lived in NM ourselves. Great place, and there had been so interesting economic developments happening of late, but it's not a wealthy state and there's not much cushion. This is going to hit hard.

[Carol in Cal.]

25 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Sure. I'm just saying it isn't my experience here. I'm not trying to prove or disprove anyone's data, just that I'd love it if my liberal, anti-trump neighbors were more risk averse when it comes to this thing. Also, by way of the data and surveys, I guarantee that the way they would answer survey questions or what they say they feel and do about distancing measures is different than what they are actually doing.

The NorCal public beaches were so thronged with visitors at the beginning of the shut down that they just closed them all.  The parking lots were not only a COVID hazard, they were actually a fire hazard, because they were clogged like mall parking lots the week before Christmas.  And that's not a population of majority Republicans by any means, LOL.  ITA.

It's pretty clear to me that here in NorCal the aspirational aspects of time use are popping to the front, big time.  People who have wanted to plant gardens, cook/bake at home, or visit natural beauty sites for years but have not had time to do so are doing their best to use the shut down this way.  That has driven seed, flour, and yeast shortages, and also some really dangerous conditions at many forests, beaches, and rock-climbing areas--with clamp downs that would not be needed if normal use patterns were in place.  Summer is going to be really rough here, both economically and socially as well as health wise, if something doesn't change.

Also, the areas here that are economically dependent on tourism and travel are going to seriously need to diversify.  This is particularly true of those that rely mostly on income from brief periods of time annually, like two months of summer or a couple of festivals.

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Carol in Cal.

[GoodGrief]

40 minutes ago, frogger said:

 

Americans want freedom and not to be told what to do. But a large number appear to be unable to handle any difficulty or sacrifice. I realize some are sacrificing more than others but really I want to ask, " How did you think we would get through this with no sacrifice at all?" Because I can't figure out how that works.

 

I don't think people mind sacrificing. They just want to know that the sacrifice makes sense. In this current situation, there is a big question mark as to whether these restrictions are logical.

As I have said before, we are a public health family. My dad's a retired CDC epidemiologist who has been involved in multiple investigations through the years and done the modeling. At one point during this crisis, my home oven was being used by my spouse to test a method of sterilizing masks which a local hospital is currently utilizing. I know people who had the virus and I've talked on the phone with an NYC ER nurse friend who is in the middle of it. We get the science. We also get that this is an inexact science. It's pretty clear that a good many of these restrictions are put in place for fear of liability and out of political ambition.

This is a serious illness. People are going to get sick and people are going to die. And as it stands now, those that remain (which is our young people) are not going to have much of an economy. And we did this to ourselves.

[Selkie]

1 hour ago, frogger said:

 

Agree. Because it looks like no big deal with small numbers people won't be as cautious with the simple things that could make a difference so then the harder top down things are implemented. Why do people have to experience things first hand to learn from them?

Reminds me of the Will Rogers quote:

"There are three kinds of men.

The one that learns by reading.

The few that learn by observation.

The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence themselves."

[Frances]

A poll released last week showed that the vast majority in my state supported our stay home restrictions. There were some differences along political and urban vs rural lines, but most were in agreement that they were necessary and working. I’ve been nowhere except my backyard for seven weeks, so I have no idea what’s really going on here in terms of gatherings, shopping, etc.

Edited April 28, 2020 by Frances

[EmseB]

Just now, square_25 said:

 

What would you like to have happen? 

Not who you asked, but I think medical systems need to be spooled back up. I don't think people realize how devastating it is, for example, that Mayo is furloughing 30,000 employees. Pediatricians in particular across the US are taking a big hit and vaccination rates for babies and children are plummeting because people think it isn't safe to go to the doctor. My kids' peds are calling parents personally to try to get them to come in for shots because they are worried about VPDs making a comeback when restrictions are lifted.

I know what people are going to say about PPE. I don't have a good immediate solution, but all the PPE in the world isn't going to make a difference if our hospitals go under and systems get overwhelmed by all the non-covid stuff we're putting off now. As someone said up thread, elective doesn't mean boob jobs when it comes to delaying elective procedures. I think there is going to be risk involved. I don't know how to fix that over the course of the next couple years while this thing is around without decimating the medical system we need to survive. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Not who you asked, but I think medical systems need to be spooled back up. I don't think people realize how devastating it is, for example, that Mayo is furloughing 30,000 employees. Pediatricians in particular across the US are taking a big hit and vaccination rates for babies and children are plummeting because people think it isn't safe to go to the doctor. My kids' peds are calling parents personally to try to get them to come in for shots because they are worried about VPDs making a comeback when restrictions are lifted.

I know what people are going to say about PPE. I don't have a good immediate solution, but all the PPE in the world isn't going to make a difference if our hospitals go under and systems get overwhelmed by all the non-covid stuff we're putting off now. As someone said up thread, elective doesn't mean boob jobs when it comes to delaying elective procedures. I think there is going to be risk involved. I don't know how to fix that over the course of the next couple years while this thing is around without decimating the medical system we need to survive. 

They are being spooled back up in many places including places that still have Stay in Place orders. 

[Frances]

12 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

 

I don't think people mind sacrificing. They just want to know that the sacrifice makes sense. In this current situation, there is a big question mark as to whether these restrictions are logical.

As I have said before, we are a public health family. My dad's a retired CDC epidemiologist who has been involved in multiple investigations through the years and done the modeling. At one point during this crisis, my home oven was being used by my spouse to test a method of sterilizing masks which a local hospital is currently utilizing. I know people who had the virus and I've talked on the phone with an NYC ER nurse friend who is in the middle of it. We get the science. We also get that this is an inexact science. It's pretty clear that a good many of these restrictions are put in place for fear of liability and out of political ambition.

This is a serious illness. People are going to get sick and people are going to die. And as it stands now, those that remain (which is our young people) are not going to have much of an economy. And we did this to ourselves.

But we did it to ourselves long before the stay at home orders or pandemic started. If leaders ignore facts and science, gut important programs and staff, and don’t actually have the ability to lead during a crisis, then the results are very predictable.

[vonfirmath]

40 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

They are supposedly very thin.

 

 

I would not expect a $2 mask to be good quality. I'm spending about $15 for that.

[Hyacinth]

In my little part of the world, I’m seeing a lot of D-O-N-E, far more than a month ago, but still a lot of compliance, too  

For reference, my state has just over five million people and, as of yesterday, 177 deaths. We’re not in a hotspot and the virus isn’t something that seems to be affecting many people directly. So that, of course, informs some of the resistance to continued lockdowns.  

As to whether people are for or against continued SIP orders, I think opinions vary depending on (at least) three factors:

• How they see the role of government (and, thus, whether this is an overreach of authority or a legitimate means of providing for safety)
• What media they consume / who they trust for information 
• Their comfort level with risk to themselves and their families

Unfortunately, both sides make a mockery and caricature out of the other side  But that’s fodder for another thread.

 

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Hyacinth

[Frances]

9 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Not who you asked, but I think medical systems need to be spooled back up. I don't think people realize how devastating it is, for example, that Mayo is furloughing 30,000 employees. Pediatricians in particular across the US are taking a big hit and vaccination rates for babies and children are plummeting because people think it isn't safe to go to the doctor. My kids' peds are calling parents personally to try to get them to come in for shots because they are worried about VPDs making a comeback when restrictions are lifted.

I know what people are going to say about PPE. I don't have a good immediate solution, but all the PPE in the world isn't going to make a difference if our hospitals go under and systems get overwhelmed by all the non-covid stuff we're putting off now. As someone said up thread, elective doesn't mean boob jobs when it comes to delaying elective procedures. I think there is going to be risk involved. I don't know how to fix that over the course of the next couple years while this thing is around without decimating the medical system we need to survive. 

This has already started locally here. Even before the official date to open up more medical procedures, many hospitals had worked out agreements with the governor’s office. I know in WI where I have family working in the medical field, they are getting busier and my mom went for routine bloodwork last week. I don’t know about private practices, though. It’s hard to imagine them risking it if they don’t have adequate PPE. 
 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Frances

[Frances]

4 minutes ago, vonfirmath said:

 

I would not expect a $2 mask to be good quality. I'm spending about $15 for that.

Before the pandemic, n95 masks were about $1 and surgical masks significantly cheaper.

[sassenach]

56 minutes ago, SeaConquest said:

 

There have been many articles that I have read about partisan differences in behavior and risk perception related to the virus.

 

Not to get argumentative, but a lot of those articles come from the liberal end of the news spectrum and fall under the "liberals are better/smarter" white noise machine.

I'm sure there is some correlation but hardly the one that the media is writing about. Like many people have have stated here- liberals are bucking the system too. Blaming conservatives is unhelpful.

I think it's human nature. We're social creatures when you get down to it.

[rebcoola]

I'm in Eastern Washington near they Tyson food plant fiasco.  We have never had great anything but grudging compliance.  People are super fed up sheriff's saying they won't enforce etc.  Our order is through the 4th but obviously being extended since they announced some fishing,hunting, type stuff will reopen on the 5th. 

[Tap]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

Before the pandemic, n95 masks were about $1 and surgical masks significantly cheaper.

Yep, at the beginning of the epidemic, I bought a 10 pack of Honeywell brand N95s at a paint store because I am spraying paint. I paid about $12 for the box. The are much nicer than the off brand N95s that my pharmacy has us using. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by Tap

[GoodGrief]

10 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

What would you like to have happen? 

We can start by slowing down and stopping with the name calling. We can recognize that there are legitimate points to be made on all sides. We can recognize that neither side has a claim to "science". We need to accept that we are likely all going to get sick with this at some point and for most of us it will be okay. Sickness and death is always going to be a part of life.

What I think should have been done from the beginning is putting the massive resources that have now been thrown to the wind (a ridiculous $1200 check to most) toward sheltering and protecting the vulnerable. It would have been ideal to keep those who are able working.

But here we are now. Yes, people need to have the opportunity to work if they wish. We still need to protect the vulnerable, though now we have wasted a tremendous amount of resources that could have gone toward that endeavor. Yes, there is going to be a spike in occurrences of this particular illness. But then we will have fewer cases. That is the way herd immunity works.

And, yes, there are plenty of unknowns about this illness. There are risks regardless of the decisions made. The hindsight here will be interesting.

 

[GoodGrief]

15 minutes ago, Frances said:

But we did it to ourselves long before the stay at home orders or pandemic started. If leaders ignore facts and science, gut important programs and staff, and don’t actually have the ability to lead during a crisis, then the results are very predictable.

We tend to choose the leaders that pay lip service to the "facts and science" that support our personal beliefs. Human nature. I don't know too many people who truly seek unvarnished truth.

[PeterPan]

3 hours ago, skimomma said:

some churches have continued services as usual the entire time.

Can I ask just a straight question? How did that work out? Did they have a high incidence of the virus or hospitalizations? Just wondering if anyone was making data on it.

[vonfirmath]

15 minutes ago, Frances said:

Before the pandemic, n95 masks were about $1 and surgical masks significantly cheaper.

 

Supply and demand. I can't find $1 N95 masks right now.

 

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, OKBud said:

 

Same here. We briefly, briefly had a bit of time **after cops started telling ppl to do what the governor had told them to do and not a minute sooner 😠 ** where people did the things. 

So yeah now they are all in a circle jerk about how they need everything to change and frankly I am so aggravated to the hilt about it. All the excuses one could find in other places, the most pressing being that people are out how work, are not an issue in my neighborhood.

Yup. The ones socializing in my neighborhood? The ones that have jobs outside the home still have them other than one that is a chef and was out of work for I think 2 weeks, maybe 3, but not only did he get unemployment for the one paycheck he missed  (with the extra 600 per week) but his wife, who hasn't worked more than 4 hours a month in a year, also is getting the $600 a week unemployment because technically she is still employed by a theme park, even though she rarely goes in - maybe one shift every few months. So they are making MORE than when they were working, and he's now back to work as they started doing take out meals. And it isn't like them sitting outside in groups drinking and talking and laughing for hours each night is bringing in any money! Congregating at parks, or standing too close in line or refusing to wear a mask at the grocery store isn't generating an income for anyone either. The stuff I'm seeing is NOT about the money. It's about being idiots. Or just not caring. 

1 hour ago, Suzanne in ABQ said:

 I could be persuaded back toward supporting the lock-down if given more information from those in charge. Our (democrat) governor (New Mexico) just keeps tacking on two weeks at a time, saying to hold out for two more weeks, then two more weeks, then two more weeks, but never says exactly what we're waiting for, what the exit plan is, or what difference two more weeks is going to make. I don't understand why they can't give us some pegs on which to hang our hats, some benchmarks we can see with our own eyes, rather than just trying to keep the fear level up.

The states have guidelines handed down from the White House. Those have been widely publicized. Those are the benchmarks.

The state police brought a cease and desist order, but the mayor said he's gonna keep letting people play golf, even if he has to sue the state. He was asking the question, "Why is it dangerous to work at City Hall, but okay to work in Walmart?" 

That question shows either he doesn't understand how this works, or he's missing the point on purpose and trying to mislead people. It isn't that it is safer at Walmart than the City Hall. it is that people in City Hall can work from home for essential stuff, or it can be put off. There is no way for people to sell eggs from home. Hence, essential workers. We can't not let people buy food. We can shut down appointments at city hall. If we could shut down walmart without people starving, we would. Because people are at risk in one place, that we have to keep open, doesn't mean we should then put other people at risk too, just to make it more "fair". 

Another thing happening that the government doesn't talk about is that the healthcare system (outside the ICU) is almost completely shut down. No one gets any health services unless they have COVID, or under extreme emergencies. Medical professionals are being furloughed. Doctors, dentists, and eye doctors' offices are all closed. Entire floors of hospitals are closed down. Only the most critical patients are getting any care at all. I know one person who was in extreme pain for two weeks, but was sent home from the ER twice before finally being allowed an MRI, which showed stones in her bile duct, as well as her gall bladder). Other people have had their needed surgeries and procedures postponed indefinitely (My FIL had cataract surgery scheduled in March - "elective" doesn't mean boob jobs). They say they don't want to "overwhelm" the healthcare system, but they're killing it instead. The doctors' offices were already so backed up in the US that they were scheduling out 4-6 months, or longer. When they open back up, they will be backed up for a year or more!  Talk about overwhelmed!

Do you think they should open up and put their staff at risk, even without the appropriate PPE? Are they all closed due to government mandates or due to the offices/hospitals themselves making that decision in order to protect their staff? If it is their own decision, lifting regulations won't fix that. 

I haven't joined the "rebels" yet, but I'm actually leaning toward the "Bring it on" stage, honestly. With no vaccine, the only way out of this thing is natural immunity. Since it's a novel virus, the only way to get immunity is to get the virus and recover. The only way to build the herd immunity we need to protect society is for a whole lot of people to become immune. I actually believe my family had it back in December, but without a reliable, readily available antibody test, there's no way to know for sure. Here in NM, the vast majority (over 95%) of people who have gotten COVID-19 have recovered at home, with no hospitalization, and our numbers in general are relatively good. I think most people are just willing to take the risk. Let the high-risk people stay home. Let the healthy people with strong immune systems get it, recover, become immune, and build that herd immunity sooner, rather than later. 

 

I get wanting that, I do, but people have considered it and there is a reason that isn't the way we are handling it. For starters, to get herd immunity we are looking at around 80% of the population needing to get it, which would totally overwhelm the hospitals and lead to probably millions dead. Also, to get to that 80% we would have to willingly expose people with risk factors that make them more vulnerable, not isolate them, because 40% of the adult population in the US has those risk factors. And of course, we have no way of knowing that people that get this are even immune from getting it again. Look at the way say, a stomach bug or strep throat (I know, a bacteria, but still) can go through a family or classroom over and over and over again! So we'd be risking 1-2 million lives, plus overwhelming our hospitals, plus the emotional trauma experienced by the living for survivors guilt watching that many people die, plus the economic impacts of the fear that would create (no one is going to the movies or restaurant if that many are dying) and we STILL wouldn't even know if it was going to actually create herd immunity. 

As for having just the vulnerable stay home - how do they get food, groceries, how do they get medical care, etc? What if they live with people that are not high risk? Do we create some kind of ghetto for them or camp like we did with Japanese Americans in WWII? And have doctors and such just live there for the duration to care for them? Because otherwise, an older person with say, COPD has to go to a doctor at some point, have someone bring food, have someone come clean the house, whatever. And if we have lifted restrictions and are exposing all those people in the goal of herd immunity, those people are way more likely to carry the virus to the old lady with COPD. So yeah, we can't protect the vulnerable if we don't limit the spread among everyone else. That is how we protect them. The more people exposed, healthy or not, the more likely the vulernable will also be exposed. And of course, those vulnerable are also going to die of unrelated things like heart attacks and strokes if the hospitals are overwhelmed by COVID patients. 

I mean, how do we keep it out of nursing homes, and cancer centers, etc if we are encouraging it to spread among the population? Every time a worker goes to the store, etc they would be exposed and then go to work the next day. 

And that doesn't even start with those that live with people that are high risk. 

42 minutes ago, Moonhawk said:

 

My husband is also med/high-risk, and they think me caring about that is ridiculous since they are high-risk and don't care about it for themselves. I don't feel comfortable going against stay-at-home, we are in a rural-ish area and I see it as the ideal situation to stay safe and help others stay safe, NOT a reason we can be lax ourselves. I wish my own strength of will was strong enough to follow it through regardless of the governor's order, but realistically I need my parents' cooperation and support long term right now, and if the order is loosened I will have to compromise. 

 

Do they not see how devastated you and the kids would be if your husband was sick in the hospital? 

27 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

Not going to quote your whole post, but I completely understand. My two young adult daughters are in ABQ now, along with my son-in-law. My SIL has gone from working 80+ hours a week, as a truck driver delivering to restaurants, to being laid off from his job and getting 0-32 hours per week in temp work. My oldest daughter has been accepted to grad school at UNM and given a grad assistant position that makes it affordable, but there's a big question mark now as to the future funding for those positions. She's suddenly the primary breadwinner in the family because she does childcare for an ER doc. My college student, who had to relocate to NM from her East Coast school to live with her sister, has had ongoing respiratory issues but has been unable to get ongoing in-person care (after she was tested for the virus and found negative) because of the current medical situation.

We have lived in NM ourselves. Great place, and there had been so interesting economic developments happening of late, but it's not a wealthy state and there's not much cushion. This is going to hit hard.

Ugh. I do hope trucking will get back up soon, as supply chains are figured out. I mean, people are still eating as much, just at home. As for your daughters, honestly, the bigger issue seems to be you have one who is exposed via her job (working for family in medical) living with one who is high risk. Are there other options for your high risk daughter? As for medical care, that is tough! I mean, you want her seen, but you also don't want her going into a clinic that is doing nothing but seeing people with respiratory problems, some portion of which would be carrying Covid! I mean, gathering in one building all the people most at risk AND the people showing the most symptoms seems like a disaster until we have rapid, accurate, testing. 

Really, that ability to test and an adequate supply of PPE are what is holding back medical offices from opening, according to the medial people I've spoken to. Not regulations. Not the government. They just can't risk their staff OR their patients in this situation, when they don't have enough PPE or even disinfectants, and many places don't have rapid testing abilities. 

2 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Not who you asked, but I think medical systems need to be spooled back up. I don't think people realize how devastating it is, for example, that Mayo is furloughing 30,000 employees. Pediatricians in particular across the US are taking a big hit and vaccination rates for babies and children are plummeting because people think it isn't safe to go to the doctor. My kids' peds are calling parents personally to try to get them to come in for shots because they are worried about VPDs making a comeback when restrictions are lifted.

I know what people are going to say about PPE. I don't have a good immediate solution, but all the PPE in the world isn't going to make a difference if our hospitals go under and systems get overwhelmed by all the non-covid stuff we're putting off now. As someone said up thread, elective doesn't mean boob jobs when it comes to delaying elective procedures. I think there is going to be risk involved. I don't know how to fix that over the course of the next couple years while this thing is around without decimating the medical system we need to survive. 

So what are you saying - that doctors and nurses and receptionists and such should just suck it up and see patients despite not having enough PPE? Just expose themselves? This isn't going to last forever, they will get the PPE ramped up and the rapid testing (some places already have it) and enough disinfectants, and then medical offices will open up. Waiting a single month or two for say, a measels booster is not worth asking our medical workers to see patients without proper PPE in the midst of a novel pandemic. (maybe you were not trying to say that - I have a headache and maybe I'm misreading? If so, I apologize)

[mathnerd]

 live briefing ongoing regarding reopening

 

Edited April 28, 2020 by mathnerd

[Pam in CT]

re non-COVID medical services starting to resume

18 minutes ago, Frances said:

This has already started locally here. Even before the official date to open up more medical procedures, many hospitals had worked out agreements with the governor’s office. I know in WI where I have family working in the medical field, they are getting busier and my mom went for routine bloodwork last week. I don’t know about private practices, though. It’s hard to imagine them risking it if they don’t have adequate PPE. 
 

That's how it's emerging here too (where the state orders never *did* shut down non-COVID or ER medical services; the decisions of what was deemed "essential" vs non-essential was left to medical providers).

Six weeks in, it's shaping up now in three rough categories:

1. Providers working out of hospitals AND affiliated with one of the research hospitals or universities that developed their own test:  These folks generally have adequate PPE/ sanitation protocols AND adequate quick-results test; and are slowly starting to resume services -- in some cases that I'm aware of, only to patients who take a drive-through test and wait for results before entering. Many (most?) of the patients have to pay out of pocket for the test ($65 at the hospital at which one physician friend of our works).  
2. Providers working out of hospitals whose network affiliations have not developed their own test. These folks generally now have enough PPE for the medical staff but do not have access to enough testing -- particularly, quick-results testing -- to test patients.  Some are re-opening some limited services but since doing so often means they no longer can live with their families the staff are pulled way back and services are still limited.
3.  Private practices that are not both affiliated with hospitals (which enables access to PPE) and are not physically within hospital premises (which facilitates cleaning protocols) are mostly still closed, referring emergencies to a hospital-based practice.  In addition to the inability of such practices to *get* adequate PPE or any tests, dentists and physical therapists and etc don't generally have staff to administer and read the tests.  And liability issues loom large. And their kids' schools are closed.  This category of provider will be the slowest to resume.

Medical services, as they open, will be substantially more expensive for both provider and patient.  (That's the virus, not politics, speaking.)

[TheReader]

1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

re how closely the virus has come to the house

I expect that does make all the difference.  I'm in a hot spot. I'd have more than $1000 myself, and I know several people for whom that number would be substantially higher.  

(Just minutes ago my 17 yo daughter came downstairs and told me that one of her classmates appeared on ZOOM class this morning all masked up in his own house. His father has it; the father is sorta-isolated in one bedroom and all the other family members are doing their best to not contract.)

 

This is really tiresome. Everyone's tired. Everyone's done.

The virus isn't done.

Yesterday the global total crossed 3M cases, The US total is 1M cases. With less than 5% of the world's population we have 1/3 of of the world's confirmed cases. Sure, there are data issues. 

I do understand that, completely. 

The person who asked that question (on my FB page, but a former Sunday School teacher, who I have generally always respected) did have people answering him that it would be $200, or $500, or $1000....even that being here where we aren't in a hot spot. Now, how many of those who answered were local, I don't know -- for me, personally, I heard of a couple who had it; the wife died, the husband is recovering. These were a former pastor, whose son I graduated high school with. So, we weren't close to them, but had met them and did know who they were. 

A mom on one of my son's college parents pages just posted asking for prayer, because a current student at their college lost his dad to it. 

DH's employer is based in Italy....they've been very proactive here, and honestly, having that global connection and hearing the stories from Italy truly helps. When you hear, literally, from people you know, of hospitals turning away parents.....it shifts your perspective. 

So, yes, I get it. And that's why for me personally, we're in the "tired but continuing on with all of this" camp -- because it is real, and the measures to not overwhelm hospitals are working where we live, and I'd frankly rather not lose anyone else. All I can do is manage my family, though, and speak up when I see stuff swaying the other way. 

I'm sorry your number is so much higher; it's truly frightening. 

[KeriJ]

A few reasons why I think people are skeptical and done:

Hospitals prepared for a huge influx which they believed would happen even with the stay at home orders.  In many, many places, that just didn't happen.

In our area, there is a large amount of non-compliance.  Yet our numbers are still relatively low.  I suspect this is true in many areas.  So the idea of opening up smaller businesses, while keeping large crowded areas closed, doesn't seem like it would make that much of a difference.  

 

 

[frogger]

1 hour ago, GoodGrief1 said:

 

I don't think people mind sacrificing. They just want to know that the sacrifice makes sense. In this current situation, there is a big question mark as to whether these restrictions are logical.

As I have said before, we are a public health family. My dad's a retired CDC epidemiologist who has been involved in multiple investigations through the years and done the modeling. At one point during this crisis, my home oven was being used by my spouse to test a method of sterilizing masks which a local hospital is currently utilizing. I know people who had the virus and I've talked on the phone with an NYC ER nurse friend who is in the middle of it. We get the science. We also get that this is an inexact science. It's pretty clear that a good many of these restrictions are put in place for fear of liability and out of political ambition.

This is a serious illness. People are going to get sick and people are going to die. And as it stands now, those that remain (which is our young people) are not going to have much of an economy. And we did this to ourselves.

 

Well, I am NOT knowledgeable on New Mexico but Alaska opened health care as soon as we opened another sector and my impression from watching the press conference was the limitations on opening even more of health care was the lack of PPE.  I hope to hear they open the rest of health care soon. 

I think the lack of supplies was the number one driver of Alaska's lock down entirily as they couldn't test contacts and were ridicously low on PPE. That and people were stealing it from the hospital!  The goal is focused on keeping transmissions steady not hospitals empty because it's easier not to be on the steep side of the curve. 

I'm not sure what decision was entirely political in Alaska but you might be able to enlighten me.  The decisions allowing self quarantining at home for out of state fisherman and not allowing it for slope workers absolutely makes sense because small fishing boats are just a few workers out on a boat rather than the mixing of large numbers of workers from all over on the slope. I see a lot of sensible problem solving. So tell me what I'm missing.

 

Now if you mean New Mexicos Gov. was being political, well you probably have more knowledge than me because I can't keep up on 50 states. 

 

Or were you talking the Feds? I wasn't because they haven't been in charg. of lock downs. But yes, they made a mess of economic policy. That would probably be a different thread. 

 

And when I say people aren't willing to make any sacrifices I don't mean everyone but I get the "going back to normal" , this is just the flu statements all. the. time.  Your family may be educated and thinking things through BUT there are seem to be a large number of Bill Gates started this email forwards I get and it's frustrating. So please know I don't include all people who question what is happening in that group. 

[Frances]

40 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

We tend to choose the leaders that pay lip service to the "facts and science" that support our personal beliefs. Human nature. I don't know too many people who truly seek unvarnished truth.

Here’s one article that explains some of the key differences that resulted from leaders following or not best practices for outbreaks previously established by scientists.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/04/seattles-leaders-let-scientists-take-the-lead-new-yorks-did-not

 

 

[SeaConquest]

45 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Not to get argumentative, but a lot of those articles come from the liberal end of the news spectrum and fall under the "liberals are better/smarter" white noise machine.

I'm sure there is some correlation but hardly the one that the media is writing about. Like many people have have stated here- liberals are bucking the system too. Blaming conservatives is unhelpful.

I think it's human nature. We're social creatures when you get down to it.

 

Like I said, the locals here (mostly liberal) were about to mutiny if they didn't open the beaches and parks, which just happened partially yesterday. So, I understand the frustration on both sides. I was merely recounting what I am seeing locally in terms of protests and riskier behavior (not wearing masks, not obeying social distancing rules), which sadly *is* divided along political lines in my neck of the woods. But there definitely is a general sense of weariness that we all feel, to be sure. I've just seen a lot more sourdough starters, seed planting, mask sewing, and zoom happy hours to pass the time among my circle of friends vs the the griping about the economy that I get when I talk to my Boomer parents (who probably have more money than all of my Gen X friends put together).

[Frances]

1 minute ago, square_25 said:

 

To be fair, it's also relatively clear that Washington simply had fewer cases and that the population was on higher alert :-(. It's so, so unfortunate New York didn't find a case earlier. And that de Blasio refused to test. 

Yes, it’s absolutely true there are other factors. I primarily found the article interesting because prior to reading it, I didn’t know any of the details or specifics about the CDC training programs, the history if their development, their deployment and use in previous outbreaks, etc. 

[Arcadia]

2 hours ago, mathnerd said:

I think that in California, when the weather gets warmer, all that the people want to do (cultivated habit) is to go to the beach 🙂 That contributes to the throng in Newport beach and Long Beach this week.

Here people want to hibernate in malls like Great Mall, Valley Fair to save on air-conditioned bills. I  think we aren't allowed to go to Santa Cruz, Pacifica, Half Moon Bay so nowhere to hide from the heat except outdoors (shady areas in open fields) or going into Target, Costco, Walmart, Grocery Outlet, Safeway for a "walk". 

[skimomma]

37 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Can I ask just a straight question? How did that work out? Did they have a high incidence of the virus or hospitalizations? Just wondering if anyone was making data on it.

 

No idea since we have very little access to testing and we have only had a handful of confirmed positives....all of which were people who had traveled into the area.  We are geographically isolated from the rest of our state.  Our state has been hit hard but nowhere near my area.  Due to this, I am pretty sure we will not peak for weeks yet, if not months.  So, my guess is that those church leaders can confidently say that their congregations have been "safe" so far....which only further fans the flames of the "this is all a hoax" crowd....who happen to be the very same people attending these churches.  To be fair, *most* churches in my area ceased in person services when requested by our governor.  There is one specific religion that continues to meet.  Or rather, the most strict sects of this particular religion are still meeting in person.  They make up a significant percentage of our local population and have a long history of skepticism towards the government.  They also typically do not travel and do not welcome people outside of their religion into their churches or lives.  They very well could dodge all of this due to their lifestyle and views except for the fact that they do shop and work in the general population.

[ktgrok]

 

32 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

We can start by slowing down and stopping with the name calling. We can recognize that there are legitimate points to be made on all sides. We can recognize that neither side has a claim to "science". We need to accept that we are likely all going to get sick with this at some point and for most of us it will be okay. Sickness and death is always going to be a part of life.

What I think should have been done from the beginning is putting the massive resources that have now been thrown to the wind (a ridiculous $1200 check to most) toward sheltering and protecting the vulnerable. It would have been ideal to keep those who are able working.

But here we are now. Yes, people need to have the opportunity to work if they wish. We still need to protect the vulnerable, though now we have wasted a tremendous amount of resources that could have gone toward that endeavor. Yes, there is going to be a spike in occurrences of this particular illness. But then we will have fewer cases. That is the way herd immunity works.

And, yes, there are plenty of unknowns about this illness. There are risks regardless of the decisions made. The hindsight here will be interesting.

 

1. We do NOT need to accept we are all going to get sick with this at some point. I'm trying like heck not to. And yes, most of us will be okay. But a whole heck of a lot will not be. We currently have had more people die of this virus in this country in a few months than in all of the vietnam war. I don't know anyone who can walk by that memorial and  shrug their shoulders and think it isn't a big deal. 

2. I'm in agreement we need to do more to protect the vulnerable, etc I just don't know what that looks like - can you be more specific?

[Arcadia]

44 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

 live briefing ongoing regarding reopening

The comments on my Facebook feed are that the briefing is just as good as not briefing. My school district won't be able to reopen in July anyway unless K-8th kids are split into 3 shifts to fulfil social distancing requirements.  It would be even more difficult for high schools to fulfill social distancing requirements as students take different combinations of classes. 

[mathnerd]

19 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

Here people want to hibernate in malls like Great Mall, Valley Fair to save on air-conditioned bills. I  think we aren't allowed to go to Santa Cruz, Pacifica, Half Moon Bay so nowhere to hide from the heat except outdoors (shady areas in open fields) or going into Target, Costco, Walmart, Grocery Outlet, Safeway for a "walk". 

Even though we are not supposed to go on non-essential trips, it has not stopped many younger people and many older people to drive down to Santa Cruz from the bay area to hang out on the beaches or to surf and canoe. The enforcement in Santa Cruz is very slack and I am told that airbnb occupancy rates are very high there and that beachgoers had cars were parked for miles on the sides of roads. So, people are breaking SIP in the larger bay area, but, they are probably doing non-communal activities like canoeing or walking on less crowded beaches in Santa Cruz.

[ktgrok]

38 minutes ago, kdsuomi said:

Yeah, people can stop freaking out that people who want a plan are just trying to kill others or don't want to face reality. Phase 1, with no even estimated date, only includes manfacturing, offices when telework isn't available, curbside pickup,  possibly opening some public spaces, and possibly an early start to the next school year. Life won't be much different than now, but it's something. 

Ok, I don't get how "people want a plan" and yet, there is a plan, in a basic sense, from the federal government, providing guidelines. You mention it yourself. What more of a plan do people want? Just for governors to reiterate it, or say what they will do differently? Or do they want a different plan entirely?

I don't get the "we want a plan" thing mainly because it seems governors are saying they will follow, for the most part, the guidelines from the federal government. That's the plan. There are no dates because the dates depend on the virus numbers and we can't predict that yet when so much depends on people's behavior. When we get there, we'll know. 

16 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

I have to say that one thing I would really like, and this isn't directed at you specifically SeaConquest, I am simply using this statement as a general point...

I really wish concerns about the economy wouldn't be brushed off as insignificant.  Well over 20 *million* people are unemployed right now.  That is a massively huge number of people.  And yay for unemployment,*if*and when individuals can get a hold of it (since the unemployment system is totally and completely overwhelmed) but that number can *not* be sustained for long, especially the more we add to it. 

Ok, let me say that I don't think ANYONE thinks the economic issues are insignificant! We can be grieving the economic impact AND think that not opening up is the right thing. And many think that it is a false choice - that having mroe people get sick would hurt the economy as much or more than the shut down. 

So I think that just as some feel that they are being portrayed as not caring about grandmas of the world if they want to open things up, even if that is nowhere near the truth, others feel they are being painted as not getting or caring about the economic situation if they want to obey and/or continue stay in place longer. Neither portrayal is likely accurate. 

[ktgrok]

7 minutes ago, happysmileylady said:

Curious how you believe you will be able to avoid getting it?  That's not snark, it's a genuine question.  

By staying home as much as possible, is the short answer. DH is working from home. We try to have most things delivered, or pick up meds via curbside/drivethrough. When we bring anything into the house, groceries or otherwise, we disinfect them with peroxide or put on a high shelf to sit for several days. Or we open and transfer to a clean container. The few times we have been out in public for groceries, med pick ups, etc we mask (we have an N95 mask as well as cloth masks) and stay 6 ft apart and don't touch our faces, then change and shower when we get home. 

It isn't perfect, but we are certainly trying. 

[Tap]

1 hour ago, vonfirmath said:

 

Supply and demand. I can't find $1 N95 masks right now.

 

Most ethical companies have donated what masks they have to medical personnel and medical offices. The private parties selling them online are upcharging, just because the can. Most private people who are selling them, bought them months ago and paid a regular price (or stole them from medical offices or companies that use the in the course of business). They are just price gouging. Manufacturers and retailers, aren't selling to private parties right now. 

[SeaConquest]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

I have to say that one thing I would really like, and this isn't directed at you specifically SeaConquest, I am simply using this statement as a general point...

I really wish concerns about the economy wouldn't be brushed off as insignificant.  Well over 20 *million* people are unemployed right now.  That is a massively huge number of people.  And yay for unemployment,*if*and when individuals can get a hold of it (since the unemployment system is totally and completely overwhelmed) but that number can *not* be sustained for long, especially the more we add to it. 

 

I understand. We are small business owners. We just got the whopping $1000 advance on our Emergency Disaster Loan (that I applied for a month ago) today. It was originally supposed to 10k and funded within 3 days. And still no word on the PPP loan I also applied for on the first day that it opened up. Supposedly, we are in the queue with everyone else that isn't a big company. We had to let go of most of our subcontractors and, once they closed the bays to boating, that included the boatyards and our ability to run our marine business.

I'm just griping because my parents are complaining mostly about their stock market portfolio while my generation and the one behind mine is still drowning in student loan debt and trying to recover from the last recession. So, yeah, we are worried about the economy, but most of us are more worried about the larger structural problems with the economy that this pandemic is serving to highlight (to us).  

[vonfirmath]

2 minutes ago, Tap said:

Most ethical companies have donated what masks they have to medical personnel and medical offices. The private parties selling them online are upcharging, just because the can. Most private people who are selling them, bought them months ago and paid a regular price (or stole them from medical offices or companies that use the in the course of business). They are just price gouging. Manufacturers and retailers, aren't selling to private parties right now. 

 

Then you aren't going to find $1 N95 masks at CVS and for current day's prices, a $2 mask isn't going to be worth much. as I said, I'm paying about $15 for good quality homemade cloth mask.

 

[SeaConquest]

7 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

By staying home as much as possible, is the short answer. DH is working from home. We try to have most things delivered, or pick up meds via curbside/drivethrough. When we bring anything into the house, groceries or otherwise, we disinfect them with peroxide or put on a high shelf to sit for several days. Or we open and transfer to a clean container. The few times we have been out in public for groceries, med pick ups, etc we mask (we have an N95 mask as well as cloth masks) and stay 6 ft apart and don't touch our faces, then change and shower when we get home. 

It isn't perfect, but we are certainly trying. 

 

We have been doing the same. I have no intention of getting it. I've had two friends in their 40s on vents. Both were young, healthy, and fit, and both came within an inch of their lives. Neither of their partners had serious symptoms. You just don't know what you're going to get with this thing. I will have to go back to the hospital at some point, but I will not work without adequate PPE. 

Edited April 28, 2020 by SeaConquest

[ktgrok]

Just now, happysmileylady said:

I hope that we can discuss this politely.

I think implying that economic impact of the illness would hurt the economy as much or more than what is happening right now in terms of unemployment and temporary and permanent closures and so on, indicates to me a lack of comprehension of the scale of well over 20 million people unemployed.  That it literally countries worth of people unemployed.  It is not sustainable for much longer.   I genuinely believe that we are at risk of a second great depression.  

That doesn't mean that I think you in particular are "not caring about the economic situation."  I do think that when phrases like "griping about the economy" are tossed around, it totally leaves the impression that people think that anyone worried about the economy cares more about dollar bills than grandmas.

It isn't just how many would be out of work if they got sick (although that number is huge), it is how many people even without a law about would not go to restaurants, movie theaters, malls, etc anyway once they saw how many people were getting sick. So a lot of those places would be shutting down anyway, or at least letting go of a ton of staff. So places still shut down, plus the cost of that many people out of work sick, plus the people dealing with exhorbitant medical bills, plus the cost in tax dollars in caring for those without insurance (on top of the unemployment costs because of the places shut down for lack of clients and lack of tax revenue for the same). 

And we already see non essential medical offices shut down for lack of PPE, if we have tons more cases, that will continue longer. Doctors won't want to expose themselves or their receptionists, etc. 

[mathnerd]

21 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

The comments on my Facebook feed are that the briefing is just as good as not briefing. My school district won't be able to reopen in July anyway unless K-8th kids are split into 3 shifts to fulfil social distancing requirements.  It would be even more difficult for high schools to fulfill social distancing requirements as students take different combinations of classes. 

We all know that the schools are not going to reopen in the Fall and probably much beyond that as well ... online schooling and online private tutoring is how it is going to pan out eventually even though the school closures are until June, officially.