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Our shelter in place just got extended through May 30 and people are DONE


sassenach
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@mathnerd find it weird that badminton and table tennis has to be singles since a family of four can play doubles, and badminton courts are fixed in size. Same for rowing/canoeing, double with a same household member should be allowed.

https://covid19.ca.gov/stay-home-except-for-essential-needs/#outdoor


NEW! Can I still exercise? Take my kids to the park for fresh air? Take a walk around the block?

It’s okay to go outside to go for a walk, to exercise, and participate in healthy activities as long as you maintain a safe physical distance of six feet and gather only with members of your household. Below is a non-exhaustive list of those outdoor recreational activities.

*Parks may be closed to help slow the spread of the virus. Check with local officials about park closures in your area.

  • Athletics
  • Badminton (singles)
  • Throwing a baseball/softball
  • BMX biking
  • Canoeing (singles)
  • Crabbing
  • Cycling
  • Exploring Rock Pools
  • Gardening (not in groups)
  • Golf (singles, walking – no cart)
  • Hiking (trails/ paths allowing distancing)
  • Horse Riding (singles)
  • Jogging and running
  • Kite Boarding and Kitesurfing
  • Meditation
  • Outdoor Photography
  • Picnics (with your stay-home household members only)
  • Quad Biking
  • Rock Climbing
  • Roller Skating and Roller Blading
  • Rowing (singles)
  • Scootering (not in groups)
  • Skateboarding (not in groups)
  • Soft Martial Arts – Tai Chi, Chi Kung (not in groups)
  • Table Tennis (singles)
  • Throwing a football, kicking a soccer ball (not in groups)
  • Trail Running
  • Trampolining
  • Tree Climbing
  • Volleyball (singles)
  • Walk the dog
  • Wash the car
  • Watch the sunrise or sunset
  • Yoga”
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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

@mathnerd find it weird that badminton and table tennis has to be singles since a family of four can play doubles, and badminton courts are fixed in size. Same for rowing/canoeing, double with a same household member should be allowed.

https://covid19.ca.gov/stay-home-except-for-essential-needs/#outdoor

NEW! Can I still exercise? Take my kids to the park for fresh air? Take a walk around the block?

It’s okay to go outside to go for a walk, to exercise, and participate in healthy activities as long as you maintain a safe physical distance of six feet and gather only with members of your household. Below is a non-exhaustive list of those outdoor recreational activities.

*Parks may be closed to help slow the spread of the virus. Check with local officials about park closures in your area.

  • Athletics
  • Badminton (singles)
  • Throwing a baseball/softball
  • BMX biking
  • Canoeing (singles)
  • Crabbing
  • Cycling
  • Exploring Rock Pools
  • Gardening (not in groups)
  • Golf (singles, walking – no cart)
  • Hiking (trails/ paths allowing distancing)
  • Horse Riding (singles)
  • Jogging and running
  • Kite Boarding and Kitesurfing
  • Meditation
  • Outdoor Photography
  • Picnics (with your stay-home household members only)
  • Quad Biking
  • Rock Climbing
  • Roller Skating and Roller Blading
  • Rowing (singles)
  • Scootering (not in groups)
  • Skateboarding (not in groups)
  • Soft Martial Arts – Tai Chi, Chi Kung (not in groups)
  • Table Tennis (singles)
  • Throwing a football, kicking a soccer ball (not in groups)
  • Trail Running
  • Trampolining
  • Tree Climbing
  • Volleyball (singles)
  • Walk the dog
  • Wash the car
  • Watch the sunrise or sunset
  • Yoga”

It seems as if more than one person in a family could play golf together.

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2 hours ago, Bootsie said:

It seems as if more than one person in a family could play golf together.

The “Golf (singles, walking – no cart)” makes me think that I would have to play a round of golf by myself, as in my spouse is not supposed to accompany me. 

ETA:

I do stay near a golf course and it’s easy to social distance on their driving range, as well as doing a round of golf.

Edited by Arcadia
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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

The “Golf (singles, walking – no cart)” makes me think that I would have to play a round of golf by myself, as in my spouse is not supposed to accompany me. 

ETA:

I do stay near a golf course and it’s easy to social distance on their driving range, as well as doing a round of golf.

My guess is that they do not want anyone to gather a group of their buddies and congregate on a golf course for recreational golf. It is hard to enforce who is family and who isn't when they don't want people socializing with others outside their immediate families. Most people that I know of who play golf set up Tee Times with their friends and go together to play. That would take away the entire point of social distancing and they are being cautious when they specify this, I think. So, we all get the "right" to play golf if that is a sore point for golf enthusiasts, but, we will have to wait a few months to invite friends to play with us.

As for Sports Summer Camps, I think that sanitizing equipment between each use is iffy and hard to accomplish however hard they try and kids staying within a single group for the duration of the camp makes it boring, so, I think that myself and many others might skip enrollment for Summer Sports Camps. We currently do training sessions with my son's sports coaches through Zoom and will stick to that for a few more months.

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1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

The “Golf (singles, walking – no cart)” makes me think that I would have to play a round of golf by myself, as in my spouse is not supposed to accompany me. 

ETA:

I do stay near a golf course and it’s easy to social distance on their driving range, as well as doing a round of golf.

If I were playing golf with my spouse, he would stay much farther away from where I was swinging a club and may hit a ball than he would if we were playing table tennis or tossing a football 🙂 

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1 hour ago, mathnerd said:

My guess is that they do not want anyone to gather a group of their buddies and congregate on a golf course for recreational golf. It is hard to enforce who is family and who isn't when they don't want people socializing with others outside their immediate families. Most people that I know of who play golf set up Tee Times with their friends and go together to play. That would take away the entire point of social distancing and they are being cautious when they specify this, I think. So, we all get the "right" to play golf if that is a sore point for golf enthusiasts, but, we will have to wait a few months to invite friends to play with us.

In Idaho golfing is allowed. I mean, I think it's a very distanceable sport and a good way to get vitamin d.

Sure it's hard to enforce friends being together on the golf course... it's hard to enforce that anywhere. Golf seems like one of the more ridiculous sports to limit.

 

ETA: the more I think about it you could even play with friends because everyone could easily stay 6ft from each other and even only touch their own equipment. And it would even be easy to put one employee on a cart to enforce that.

Edited by EmseB
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12 minutes ago, EmseB said:

In Idaho golfing is allowed. I mean, I think it's a very distanceable sport and a good way to get vitamin d.

Sure it's hard to enforce friends being together on the golf course... it's hard to enforce that anywhere. Golf seems like one of the more ridiculous sports to limit.

My FIL is golfing. We shop for them, we don't want the grandparents going to the grocery store. Golf seems safer than the grocery store, and he is a big extrovert who was going crazy cooped up at home.  My son is tired of staying home (although not as tired of it as grandpa!) so he went golfing with grandpa and my husband. They had fun. He had previously had absolutely no desire to go golfing, but he's actually enjoying it and has gone twice now. My husband said it is set up pretty safely, they sanitize the balls and it is a no touch pay process.  

We had to have my son call and beg Grandpa to be able to shop for them, though. When just my husband talked to him, he was determined to go out. He has a risk factor and is in an age group that it might not be good if he got Covid-19. My mom loves shopping, too, my nephew was persuasive, though, she isn't shopping either, they mainly get delivery. They are now occasionally shopping at the elderly hours at a local store, though, my dad said there are 3 to 4 people in the store if you get there right when it opens. 

Edited by ElizabethB
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My state announced an official plan and guidelines yesterday, but still no dates, since it is based on metrics. Very rural parts of the state with very few or no cases may start some re-opening mid-month. Except for the loosening of medical stuff that started yesterday, it doesn’t appear anything else will change until at least June. People must still be generally ok with it, as only about 100 people showed up for an “open up” rally at the Capitol today. Polling last week showed strong, widespread support for the current restrictions.

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@mathnerd Palo Alto 

https://mailchi.mp/f58f9814cd96/coronavirus-daily-report-may-5-2020
“Reopening Tennis and Pickleball Courts, and more on May 6 
The City is also reopening tennis courts, pickleball courts, basketball courts, the skate park, and athletic fields while ensuring public health and safety. Visitors must adhere to social distancing guidelines and only play with members of the same household. All courts and athletic fields will be open on Wednesday, May 6. Please help us ensure the safety of the community by following posted rules. If rules are not followed, the City will be forced to close these facilities.

Other Closures Continue 
Several City facility closures continue to be in effect including pools, dog parks, picnic tables and benches, barbecue areas, outdoor gym equipment, our golf course and playgrounds. Closures are in the interest of public health and safety and in response to the Santa Clara County Shelter in Place Order restrictions. Staff is in discussions with our golf course operator to reopen with modifications and as more details are known, we will share updates.”

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@ArcadiaMy husband's employer (big company) told them that they will all work from home until january. They intend to provide private spaces for essential workers (closed conference rooms occupied by a single person for the day), but, those that can work from home are to continue doing so. They are still figuring out how to deal with infection spread through restroom use, cleaning protocols etc. Twitter said that their employees will work from home indefinitely. More are following suit ...

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1 minute ago, mathnerd said:

@ArcadiaMy husband's employer (big company) told them that they will all work from home until january. They intend to provide private spaces for essential workers (closed conference rooms occupied by a single person for the day), but, those that can work from home are to continue doing so. They are still figuring out how to deal with infection spread through restroom use, cleaning protocols etc. Twitter said that their employees will work from home indefinitely. More are following suit ...

A friend (not US) is recently employed by a FAANG company for what was a Silicon Valley position. Since work from home is so successful, they don’t see a need to hire locals when they can hire foreigners without going through the hassle of H1 Visas. Save on relocation and labor costs too as companies can hire where employee costs are lower.

Honestly with Mountain View charging headcount tax, think the tech companies there would be happy to keep their employees home. 

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@mathnerd case by zipcode is out on the county dashboard

Zipcode                       Cumulative Cases
95116                 219
95127                        189
95122                 148
Other/unknown                  111
95111                 100               
95112                      95
95148                 89
95123                     83
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@mathnerd@sassenach https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-12/apple-plans-to-return-more-staff-to-offices-in-break-from-rivals

"Apple Inc. plans to soon start returning more employees to its major global offices while other tech companies are continuing work-from-home policies through at least the end of 2020 due to Covid-19.

The Cupertino, California-based technology giant plans to bring back employees in phases to its offices, including the main Apple Park campus in Silicon Valley, over a few months, according to people familiar with the plan. The first phase, which includes staff members who can’t work remotely or are facing challenges working from home, has already begun in some regions globally. It will expand to major offices across late May and early June, Apple has told staff.

A second phase, scheduled to begin in July, will return even more employees to Apple’s offices globally. In the U.S., the company has locations in cities including New York, Los Angeles, Austin, Texas, San Diego and Boulder, Colorado. The return-to-work timelines are fluid and may change, particularly given local and state stay-at-home orders, said the people, who asked not to be identified talking about internal company matters.

This week, senior Apple managers are beginning to inform employees if they are in the first phase or a later part of the process. During the first phase, employees will either be asked to work from the office regularly or only for certain periods depending on their role, the company has told staff. An Apple spokesperson declined to comment."

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I am onto the making my own rules phase and have been for a few weeks now, partly as an act of civil disobedience because I do not believe the lockdown benefits are outweighing the costs anymore, and because the original purpose of the lockdown, flattening the curve, has been met.  I am diligent about wearing my mask in stores, the post office, etc because I do want vulnerable people protected to the extent they can be while everyone's civil liberties are restored and we go about the business of strengthening the economy whilst fighting this virus (which is going to be a multi-year thing and something  with which we will have to learn to co-exist).

Edited by Reefgazer
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5 hours ago, Reefgazer said:

I am onto the making my own rules phase and have been for a few weeks now, partly as an act of civil disobedience because I do not believe the lockdown benefits are outweighing the costs anymore, and because the original purpose of the lockdown, flattening the curve, has been met.  I am diligent about wearing my mask in stores, the post office, etc because I do want vulnerable people protected to the extent they can be while everyone's civil liberties are restored and we go about the business of strengthening the economy whilst fighting this virus (which is going to be a multi-year thing and something  with which we will have to learn to co-exist).

This is where I am.  The virus will not be eliminated any time soon (if ever).  We met the flattening of the curve.   Now we need to learn to live with it.   

I am afraid for so many businesses in the area of liability now.  So many things by is now are cancelling as events can't get insurance due to the risks of a vivid lawsuit....because if someone got covid at an event they might sue the event.

Everything we do in life is a calculated risk.  

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🤦‍♀️ https://abc7news.com/society/companies-hire-private-investigators-to-track-work-from-home-employees/6185491/

“A private investigator in Arizona tells KNXV-TVcompanies are hiring him to check up on workers who are skipping out on work. "If I get the call, usually they're pretty sure it's happening," said Dorian Bond. "They just need the documentation evidence so, when they decide to go with the termination, they have the proof."

Over the past several weeks, Bond says he's documented employees doing a number of non-work activities including golfing, boating and fishing. Another discovery took him by surprise. "A top executive was having a relationship with a subordinate and they were 'Zooming' from the same house but in different rooms."

Bond said it bothers him to find people taking advantage of their employer, when many people have been laid off due to the pandemic.”

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4 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

🤦‍♀️ https://abc7news.com/society/companies-hire-private-investigators-to-track-work-from-home-employees/6185491/

“A private investigator in Arizona tells KNXV-TVcompanies are hiring him to check up on workers who are skipping out on work. "If I get the call, usually they're pretty sure it's happening," said Dorian Bond. "They just need the documentation evidence so, when they decide to go with the termination, they have the proof."

Over the past several weeks, Bond says he's documented employees doing a number of non-work activities including golfing, boating and fishing. Another discovery took him by surprise. "A top executive was having a relationship with a subordinate and they were 'Zooming' from the same house but in different rooms."

Bond said it bothers him to find people taking advantage of their employer, when many people have been laid off due to the pandemic.”

This is not surprising at all.  But it doesn't necessarily mean the employees are getting less done.  My brother switched to working from home 2 years ago and he can get what he used to get done in a 40 hour work week done in a significantly shorter time.  His work day was spent fixing a lot of coworkers problems even though that was not in his job description.   There are countless things throughout the workday that are a huge waste of time and make workers inefficient. 

Not saying these people should be lying about the hours of work they're doing but in many cases employers will need to consider efficiency, employee happiness, and what they save with having them at home and decide how to change things if need be.

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9 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

This is not surprising at all.  But it doesn't necessarily mean the employees are getting less done.  My brother switched to working from home 2 years ago and he can get what he used to get done in a 40 hour work week done in a significantly shorter time.  

Some companies have switched to paying engineers a lower basic pay and then bonus based on work completion. Kind of like how sales people are paid. As a fast worker who liked paid time off, I like getting bonuses more than my basic pay and still have time to relax. For an ex-colleague who works slowly, his bonus is negligible.

The investigator in the article did say that those he was asked to investigate has not done their work. So bosses are investigating drop in productivity. Whether the employees have childcare/eldercare difficulties or they are just slacking.

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32 minutes ago, hjffkj said:

This is not surprising at all.  But it doesn't necessarily mean the employees are getting less done.  My brother switched to working from home 2 years ago and he can get what he used to get done in a 40 hour work week done in a significantly shorter time.  His work day was spent fixing a lot of coworkers problems even though that was not in his job description.   There are countless things throughout the workday that are a huge waste of time and make workers inefficient. 

Not saying these people should be lying about the hours of work they're doing but in many cases employers will need to consider efficiency, employee happiness, and what they save with having them at home and decide how to change things if need be.

It was on our radio news yesterday.  They specifically said that employers were trying to get a hold of these employees during work hours and couldn't.  That's what prompted the investigations.  Being available to do work during work hours seems a pretty basic work requirement to me. 

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22 hours ago, Arcadia said:

"Apple Inc. plans to soon start returning more employees to its major global offices while other tech companies are continuing work-from-home policies through at least the end of 2020 due to Covid-19.

@Arcadia Liability is something that nobody discusses when calls for opening businesses up and sending kids back to school arise.

Nobody wants to get Covid from their workplace. This is the first worker safety complaint against large tech employers that I heard of. I am sure that many more will crop up:

Intel Corp. compromised worker safety at some of its factories to maintain chip production in the midst of the Covid-19 pandemic, according to complaints filed with government agencies and employees at one of the sites. 

https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/intel/intel-accused-workers-prioritizing-chip-output-over-safety

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4 minutes ago, mathnerd said:

@Arcadia 

Nobody wants to get Covid from their workplace. This is the first worker safety complaint against large tech employers that I heard of. I am sure that many more will crop up:

I think it would be hard to proof that employees were infected from their workplace unless they lived in their workplace like the mask production factory workers who didn’t go home for 28 days straight. It’s like Amazon  warehouse workers condition, they could sue for imperfect safety measures but it would be hard to sue that they are infected there.

I am seeing lots of younger staff nowadays as groceries and places like Target cut the number of staff in stores. For example, my nearby Safeway used to have 6 cashier counters and 6 self checkout counters opened. Now they usually have 2 cashier counters and 4 self checkout counters. With less foot traffic in the store, the number of staff replenishing stocks is also much less. They have their usual two staff doing curbside pickup and they didn’t need to add more. 

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1 hour ago, hjffkj said:

This is not surprising at all.  But it doesn't necessarily mean the employees are getting less done.  My brother switched to working from home 2 years ago and he can get what he used to get done in a 40 hour work week done in a significantly shorter time.  His work day was spent fixing a lot of coworkers problems even though that was not in his job description.   There are countless things throughout the workday that are a huge waste of time and make workers inefficient. 

Not saying these people should be lying about the hours of work they're doing but in many cases employers will need to consider efficiency, employee happiness, and what they save with having them at home and decide how to change things if need be.

In the intervals when I was homeschooling my kids, I found the same thing to be true of hours spent homeschooling vs hours at b&m school.

(Not being available during hours in which you're supposed to be available is obviously different.)

 

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42 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

I think it would be hard to proof that employees were infected from their workplace unless they lived in their workplace like the mask production factory workers who didn’t go home for 28 days straight. It’s like Amazon  warehouse workers condition, they could sue for imperfect safety measures but it would be hard to sue that they are infected there.

I am seeing lots of younger staff nowadays as groceries and places like Target cut the number of staff in stores. For example, my nearby Safeway used to have 6 cashier counters and 6 self checkout counters opened. Now they usually have 2 cashier counters and 4 self checkout counters. With less foot traffic in the store, the number of staff replenishing stocks is also much less. They have their usual two staff doing curbside pickup and they didn’t need to add more. 

Our Safeway is hiring.  And they have self checkout. 

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7 hours ago, HeighHo said:

While flattening the curve has been met, I don't wish to get a contagious disease of any kind, so I will continue avoiding the obviously contagious people.  Unfortunately the 70+s here are not taking the Gov's Matilda's Law advice seriously and are out shopping, coughing away...and this in a hotspot in an area of free delivery and free curbside pickup. 

the comments from the elders are just stunning "Ohhh, you're taking it seriously" is heard as the younger shoppers ask them to move the scooter so the younger one can have a path to socially distance.  Yes, I know they are the age that missed polio, but TB and measles are something they lived thru.  It really doesn't help their Boomer selfishness reputation to be in the store hacking away when they have free alternatives for grocery delivery. I think people are going to decide to reciprocate, which will be sad.

Ouch ~  That's harsh!  I hope that's not really their reputation across the board!  (Especially since being born in the first half of the 1960's, I'm one of the border-line Boomers.)  I'm not seeing that here so much, in that age group.  Here, if I see it, it's more a mix.  But in any case, I sure don't understand ANYone who goes out and seems oblivious to spreading germs.  (Unless clearly they have a cognitive condition that prevents them from understanding the situation.  And actually, that probably makes up the majority of people I see that seem completely oblivious to all of this.)

Apart from that, I think that while flattening the curve has been temporarily met, it needs to stay that way as well.  That will probably be the trickiest part, because it might require some flexibility -- some dialing back from time to time.  

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My county is the only one not going to phase two. Many in my area do shop at East Bay and Pleasanton/Dublin/Livermore and San Mateo as it’s a short drive. 

https://www.ktvu.com/news/no-immediate-plans-to-ease-restrictions-in-santa-clara-county

“SAN JOSE, Calif. - Counties around the Bay Area have announced they're easing into Phase 2 restrictions, allowing some additional businesses to reopen at least for curbside pickups. But there is one notable exception: Santa Clara County, which has had the highest number of coronavirus cases. They have no plans to change the guidelines yet.
 
This has some business owners in Santa Clara County worried that customers will simply drive from an area that's closed to shop in one that's already open.

...

At Diaz Menswear, all the owner Alfredo Diaz can do is plan and wait.

But he fears his customers won't be so patient.
 
"They'll probably go next county to Santa Cruz or San Mateo to get a hat or a pair of jeans. So that will be a loss for us," says Diaz.”

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15 hours ago, HeighHo said:

While flattening the curve has been met, I don't wish to get a contagious disease of any kind, so I will continue avoiding the obviously contagious people.  Unfortunately the 70+s here are not taking the Gov's Matilda's Law advice seriously and are out shopping, coughing away...and this in a hotspot in an area of free delivery and free curbside pickup. 

the comments from the elders are just stunning "Ohhh, you're taking it seriously" is heard as the younger shoppers ask them to move the scooter so the younger one can have a path to socially distance.  Yes, I know they are the age that missed polio, but TB and measles are something they lived thru.  It really doesn't help their Boomer selfishness reputation to be in the store hacking away when they have free alternatives for grocery delivery. I think people are going to decide to reciprocate, which will be sad.

In an attempt to avoid the common flu and common cold, I was avoiding touching my face, avoiding obviously sick people, and cloroxing appliances and door handles before it was covid-fashionable.  So these habits were already well-ingrained in me before coronavirus hit and I find them easy accommodations to stay healthy.

I see where they are coming from.  I am not young and am fat, so that in and of itself is a risk.  But I am not willing to sacrifice quality of life to stay alive; I recognize I may die from recklessness, but that is my choice and my quality of life is more important to me at this point.  I know many older people who are of this mindset and I can understand it; for a very elderly person, waiting on a vaccine could be a life sentence of isolation that they reject.  That said, I don't like when anyone goes into the store hacking and coughing.

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11 hours ago, mathnerd said:

@Arcadia Liability is something that nobody discusses when calls for opening businesses up and sending kids back to school arise.

Nobody wants to get Covid from their workplace. This is the first worker safety complaint against large tech employers that I heard of. I am sure that many more will crop up:

Intel Corp. compromised worker safety at some of its factories to maintain chip production in the midst of the Covid-19 pandemic, according to complaints filed with government agencies and employees at one of the sites. 

https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/intel/intel-accused-workers-prioritizing-chip-output-over-safety

My state allowed manufacturing and construction to continue as long as safety guidelines were followed. Intel was one of many companies where employees filed complaints about the working conditions. Unfortunately, the office investigating was not very well staffed and it took awhile for most places to be checked for compliance.

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9 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

I see where they are coming from too.  And I know they have gathering spots where they can socialize....every town here has a nice Senior Center.   Every one of these 'elders' can meet at the Senior Center walking path, parking lot, or the exercise area and have social hour.  They do not need to visit the grocery, behave poorly with their scooters or carts, ignore the six foot distancing and aisle directional arrows and cough on strangers.  I thank the Governor for his reminders that civilized people care about the rest of their community and they wear a mask so they don't spread their droplets on others.  I think he needs to add medical advice...if you have had a cough all winter, you really need to get checked out for pneumonia. And you need to pay the bills for everyone you gave that pneumonia to  if they don't have cheap Medicaid or Medicare.

There is no excuse for having a cough and not covering up in the current situation, I agree with you. I don't care if the cough is from illness, allergies, whatever. It's just common sense. But I have seen PLENTY of healthy-looking younger people, including people with kids in tow, who are ignoring the one-way aisle instructional signs, ignoring social distancing, and blocking aisles or otherwise being less-than-considerate with carts. That's not an older person or "boomer" thing. Not by a long shot.

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1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

 

I see where they are coming from too.  And I know they have gathering spots where they can socialize....every town here has a nice Senior Center.   Every one of these 'elders' can meet at the Senior Center walking path, parking lot, or the exercise area and have social hour.  They do not need to visit the grocery, behave poorly with their scooters and cough on strangers.  I thank the Governor for his reminders that civilized people care about the rest of their community and they wear a mask so they don't spread their droplets on others.  I think he needs to add medical advice...if you have had a cough all winter, you really need to get checked out for pneumonia.

There are medical conditions that cause a constant cough. These are fairly common in elderly people. COPD, chronic bronchitis, asthma, to name a few. People who cough frequently due to lung conditions would also be part of the group for whom wearing masks would be contraindicated as people who already struggle to get enough oxygen should avoid wearing masks if at all possible. The people in my life who deal with these kinds of health issues would appreciate people not making assumptions. 

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1 minute ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

There are medical conditions that cause a constant cough. These are fairly common in elderly people. COPD, chronic bronchitis, asthma, to name a few. People who cough frequently due to lung conditions would also be part of the group for whom wearing masks would be contraindicated as people who already struggle to get enough oxygen should avoid wearing masks if at all possible. The people in my life who deal with these kinds of health issues would appreciate people not making assumptions. 

I did not think about that when I said there was no excuse for not covering up if you have a cough. (I have allergies/asthma.) Obviously people have to breathe. It's a tough one, isn't it? People don't know why I may be cough or sneeze. And not everybody can trusted to stay home if they're actually sick.

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1 minute ago, HeighHo said:

 

I can only comment on my area.  You want to generalize from my store to yours, go ahead.  You want to deny my reality, go ahead.  Enjoy yourself.

You made a general comment.  I did, too.

Yes, I will go ahead and enjoy myself. Thanks so much.

 

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5 minutes ago, HeighHo said:

 

Coughing on others means you are transmitting whatever you have in your lungs.   Wear a shield, cover, whatever...but dont give your droplets to others unless you are willing to pay for the damage you cause. I don't want to know what anyone's condition is. Just stop coughing on me and the produce. 

 

I’m not suggesting that people shouldn’t make every attempt to cover a cough. They should. For people who really shouldn’t wear masks, covering a cough or sneeze with their elbow is simply good manners. But I also recognize that for some people, especially the elderly who may be using scooters, mobility may not be what it once was and being able to cover a cough quickly may not be possible. I can keep a distance, wash my vegetables when I get home, and not worry about what I can’t control. 

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10 hours ago, Arcadia said:

My county is the only one not going to phase two. Many in my area do shop at East Bay and Pleasanton/Dublin/Livermore and San Mateo as it’s a short drive. 

https://www.ktvu.com/news/no-immediate-plans-to-ease-restrictions-in-santa-clara-county

“SAN JOSE, Calif. - Counties around the Bay Area have announced they're easing into Phase 2 restrictions, allowing some additional businesses to reopen at least for curbside pickups. But there is one notable exception: Santa Clara County, which has had the highest number of coronavirus cases. They have no plans to change the guidelines yet.
 
This has some business owners in Santa Clara County worried that customers will simply drive from an area that's closed to shop in one that's already open.

...

At Diaz Menswear, all the owner Alfredo Diaz can do is plan and wait.

But he fears his customers won't be so patient.
 
"They'll probably go next county to Santa Cruz or San Mateo to get a hat or a pair of jeans. So that will be a loss for us," says Diaz.”

Ack, I'm sorry. Dr. Cody seems like she's gonna go the distance. I can't imagine what she's afraid of with curbside pick up. How much exposure is that really?

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21 hours ago, Arcadia said:

I think it would be hard to proof that employees were infected from their workplace unless they lived in their workplace like the mask production factory workers who didn’t go home for 28 days straight. It’s like Amazon  warehouse workers condition, they could sue for imperfect safety measures but it would be hard to sue that they are infected there.

I am seeing lots of younger staff nowadays as groceries and places like Target cut the number of staff in stores. For example, my nearby Safeway used to have 6 cashier counters and 6 self checkout counters opened. Now they usually have 2 cashier counters and 4 self checkout counters. With less foot traffic in the store, the number of staff replenishing stocks is also much less. They have their usual two staff doing curbside pickup and they didn’t need to add more. 

I think this will have to be an OSHA thing, where there are certain requirements for safety and the owners can be fined for non compliance. If they are compliant, then they are not negligent and not able to be sued. 

But then there is the workers compensation issue - does that cover diseases?

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15 minutes ago, sassenach said:

Ack, I'm sorry. Dr. Cody seems like she's gonna go the distance. I can't imagine what she's afraid of with curbside pick up. How much exposure is that really?

REI is starting curbside pickup. Dicks Sporting Goods and Best Buy have curbside pickup since shelter in place started. My husband wants to use up some Nordstrom notes that are going to expire but we would have to pay for shipping unless we purposely buy more than $100 of goods. I have REI rebates that I could use for curbside pickup so that helps as I don’t need to either pay shipping or spend more.

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8 minutes ago, kand said:

How do the healthcare workers factor into the “my body, my choice” decision when it comes to the virus?  I feel frustrated on their behalf about how cavalier people can be about the very real danger to people working in hospitals right now, and every additional Coronavirus patient is added risk for them. I have read so many sad, sad articles about doctors and nurses who have died of COVID-19 who were begging and pleading with people via social media before they got sick to please stay home and not choose to expose themselves when not necessary, putting medical workers at risk. It’s heartbreaking to read these stories,  So it makes it extra hard to hear people arguing that it’s their choice whether they decide it’s worth getting sick or not.  Our actions don’t only affect ourselves. 

"My body, my choice" people should not go to essential businesses where they will mingle with others.  Nor should they go to the doctor if they get sick.  In other words, they should own their decision totally. 

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14 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

"My body, my choice" people should not go to essential businesses where they will mingle with others.  Nor should they go to the doctor if they get sick.  In other words, they should own their decision totally. 

Slippery slope there. HIV infections transmitted via sexual activity comes to mind. I worked in labor and delivery during the late 80s-90s when there were many unknowns and exposure was a real risk. My husband actually had a healthcare workplace Covid exposure just yesterday. In the end, it's the healthcare (and other essential) workers who have to decide whether the job is worth the risk.

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1 minute ago, GoodGrief1 said:

Slippery slope there. HIV infections transmitted via sexual activity comes to mind. I worked in labor and delivery during the late 80s-90s when there were many unknowns and exposure was a real risk. My husband actually had a healthcare workplace Covid exposure just yesterday. In the end, it's the healthcare (and other essential) workers who have to decide whether the job is worth the risk.

Nope.  No slippery slope.  People taking usual precautions as recommended, are not in the "my body my choice" category of reckless individuals.  The people in that category want to go out and "catch COVID". They don't want to take even simple precautions like wearing a face covering (which for most people who are not in certain categories is really a pretty simple precaution to take even if you don't totally agree with the premise behind it.)  They are not social distancing at all and put everyone including those essential workers (who often don't have the financial means to really have a choice over whether their job is worth the risk) at higher risk. 

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We treat people in hospitals who behave recklessly and endanger others all the time. Healthcare workers are confronted with infectious disease due to poor personal choices as a matter of course, sometimes every day if they work in the ED. Bed bugs, c diff, mrsa, hiv/aids, measles, and on and on. Combat medics and trauma surgeons treat people who were actively trying to kill them minutes before they got injured. This idea that we don't treat people who get sick because they have the audacity to...do whatever, go to the store or go live life,, I'm not even sure what...is gross.

My neighbors were all out partying on our block last week. I think it is unwise but to say they don't get treated if they get sick is inhumane. Plus, given the fact that risk assessment is very much not an exact science who decides who gets treated or not based on which criteria?

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7 minutes ago, EmseB said:

We treat people in hospitals who behave recklessly and endanger others all the time. Healthcare workers are confronted with infectious disease due to poor personal choices as a matter of course, sometimes every day if they work in the ED. Bed bugs, c diff, mrsa, hiv/aids, measles, and on and on. Combat medics and trauma surgeons treat people who were actively trying to kill them minutes before they got injured. This idea that we don't treat people who get sick because they have the audacity to...do whatever, go to the store or go live life,, I'm not even sure what...is gross.

My neighbors were all out partying on our block last week. I think it is unwise but to say they don't get treated if they get sick is inhumane. Plus, given the fact that risk assessment is very much not an exact science who decides who gets treated or not based on which criteria?

Of course healthcare workers do that. And it’s a morally right thing to do. 
 

But it is ok to point out the hypocrisy of people who want to catch a virulent and potentially dangerous disease who don’t take full responsibility for their actions. They are not being morally correct by exposing others to the consequences of their actions.  

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35 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Of course healthcare workers do that. And it’s a morally right thing to do. 
 

But it is ok to point out the hypocrisy of people who want to catch a virulent and potentially dangerous disease who don’t take full responsibility for their actions. They are not being morally correct by exposing others to the consequences of their actions.  

Sure, point it out all you like. That's not the issue.

Saying they should not receive medical care or go to the doctor at all because of poor choices (which in this case are more subjective than usual because there are a lot of things we don't know about this virus) is also not morally correct. What about the guy who smokes 2 packs a day and ends up hospitalized with covid not because he didn't distance himself but because he smoked? Should he not go to the doctor because his poor choices made him sicker than someone who didn't smoke and now his bad habit means healthcare workers are exposed? Who gets to decide who took enough precautions and the right precautions to earn their trip to get care? Do we vet them on social media?

To square the circle, I will say I am as pro-vaccination as a person can be, but I still push back at the notion that anti-vaxxers shouldn't get care because they spread vaccine preventable diseases. It just can't work that way.

If someone is deliberately getting other people sick, that's another matter. But that's a far cry from being cavalier about measures we don't even know are working, especially when those same measures appear to be ineffective at best at protecting the most vulnerable in the population.

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1 minute ago, EmseB said:

Sure, point it out all you like. That's not the issue.

Saying they should not receive medical care or go to the doctor at all because of poor choices (which in this case are more subjective than usual because there are a lot of things we don't know about this virus) is also not morally correct. What about the guy who smokes 2 packs a day and ends up hospitalized with covid not because he didn't distance himself but because he smoked? Should he not go to the doctor because his poor choices made him sicker than someone who didn't smoke and now his bad habit means healthcare workers are exposed? Who gets to decide who took enough precautions and the right precautions to earn their trip to get care? Do we vet them on social media?

To square the circle, I will say I am as pro-vaccination as a person can be, but I still push back at the notion that anti-vaxxers shouldn't get care because they spread vaccine preventable diseases. It just can't work that way.

If someone is deliberately getting other people sick, that's another matter. But that's a far cry from being cavalier about measures we don't even know are working, especially when those same measures appear to be ineffective at best at protecting the most vulnerable in the population.

Smokers are not putting health care workers at risk. And many many many doctor practices DO refuse to treat or even do well care for people that don't vaccinate. It is a common thing. 

That said, no I don't want to deny medical care to people who are reckless or have different risk assessments, or even the ones that really do only care about themselves. BUt, I do think people saying they want to get this thing and get it over with need to think about the risk they are then passing on to healthcare workers, in a way that a smoker or whomever does not. 

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1 minute ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

Trust me, as someone writing from my child's beside in PICU right now, I am highly motivated to protect health care workers, both because I love and appreciate them and because it's my only hope of keeping my child safe from this virus.  

But I was responding to a specific comment that if someone chooses to take a "my body my choice" approach they shouldn't be allowed to go to the doctor if they get sick.  

Yes. I agree that it's selfish and problematic. I was disagreeing with the statement that they shouldn't be able to see the doctor.

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2 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Smokers are not putting health care workers at risk. And many many many doctor practices DO refuse to treat or even do well care for people that don't vaccinate. It is a common thing. 

That said, no I don't want to deny medical care to people who are reckless or have different risk assessments, or even the ones that really do only care about themselves. BUt, I do think people saying they want to get this thing and get it over with need to think about the risk they are then passing on to healthcare workers, in a way that a smoker or whomever does not. 

Smokers do put hcws at risk if their smoking causes complications from covid that land them in the hospital instead of being able to ride it out at home.

Anti-vaxxers can't be denied emergency or critical care because they are anti-vax, which is what we're discussing. Well visits are not what we're discussing.

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5 minutes ago, CuriousMomof3 said:

I don't think this is true.  If someone gets covid, or the flu, and ends up needing more healthcare because of the conditions of their lungs, then they're going to expose more healthcare workers than someone whose lungs are in better condition.  

To me, there's a big difference between refusing to provide well care, if you aren't going to be allowed to practice medicine the way you believe, and refusing to treat a patient with a vaccine preventable disease. 

I agree 100% that people need to realize that if they "choose" to take a risk, they're "choosing" to risk other people.  To me saying "my body my choice" here is like saying "my life my choice" and driving under the influence.  You're risking more than yourself. 

Well, yes, I meant that them having say, COPD or lung cancer didn't. Not in relation to infectious disease. 

As for vaccine preventable illnesses, yes, many doctors will not treat a person with them if they are not immunized, because the won't have people who are not immunized as their patient in the first place. The reason they give for not having them as patients is not wanting them to be in the office with one of those diseases. 

but I do think private practice versus hospital care/emergency care is different. 

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19 minutes ago, EmseB said:

Yes. I agree that it's selfish and problematic. I was disagreeing with the statement that they shouldn't be able to see the doctor.

I don't think she meant they shouldn't see a doctor just that if they really do believe "my body my choice" and take needless risks then the logical follow up would be "my illness my problem".  But the usual approach seems more "my choice,  your problem".  This is understandable but does not help an overburdened health system or protect staff.  Most other self induced problems are not catching.  AIDS is catching but I have never heard of anyone catching from a patient except perhaps if the patient got violent and stabbed them with a dirty needle. 

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