Parental Embarrassment/Vent

[ericathemom]

I need to vent but I also absolutely love advice so I don't keep finding myself in this situation.

My dear, very high-energy 8yo boy was just dropped from the place he was taking drum lessons. Two different teachers said he had behavioral problems (not listening, not following instructions, etc.). I absolutely agree that he was disrespectful and not following instructions and he and I have had many, many talks about listening/obeying teachers, etc. My kiddo has said many times that he loves drums, wants to play music, etc. but when he's in the lessons, he acts out. So, he's been dropped as a student; he's disappointed and I'm embarrassed.

I'm embarrassed that my son (whom I love) keeps getting in trouble in public ways. First it was in kindergarten when he was in the principal's office weekly for being a disturbance in class, not listening, etc. The kindergarten teacher completed her own form and said that he had adhd and recommended medication. I ended up withdrawing him and we've been homeschooling ever since. He was already labeled by the school as a "bad kid," was frequently missing recess due to being in "detention," and they even were threatening to withdraw academic help.

But it's been a couple of years and he's still not getting to participate in activities.

I am so conflicted on the adhd thing. He totally might have it. But, he might also be just a high-energy, easily-distractable kid that is thriving in the homeschool world. He's crazy smart in math, engineering, science, etc. He's reading just fine. I can easily accommodate any and all of his needs to move or change subjects or even teach any subject in different ways. I'm sad that he might not get to participate in "normal school" though unless he's medicated.

If medication truly is the best thing for his little growing body, then we'll look into that. I know it's selfish but I do get embarrassed when his "non-normal" behavior shows up in public. He does absolutely great in his robotics class and swim team. I thought drums would also be great; but I suppose not. Even so, he does have good musical rhythm, I thought this would be a good outlet for that.

Anyway, like I said. I needed to vent. But, I also totally welcome any ideas or advice.

[Katy]

It’s normal to be embarrassed and want to avoid medication if your kid has ADHD.  It’s also normal to regret waiting so long to try medicine once you get your child on the right one for them.  Suddenly they function so much better, behave well, make friends, and thrive. 

It’s also normal to take your child for an evaluation and find out they have something other than ADHD. The first thing to do is call your doctor and ask who is best at giving a comprehensive evaluation in your area.  Get the evaluation and once you know what’s going on, decide then what to try. 

[ktgrok]

Hugs, it's hard to have "that kid". BTDT. But I do think an evaluation is a good idea - for anything that might be causing this. it's one thing to be high energy, but if it is keeping him from doing things he wants to do that will effect his self esteem. It might be meds, it might be other avenues, it might be some other diagnosis entirely. I thought my son had ODD and he was diagnosed with ASD and ADHD, so it is worth getting an outside opinion. If nothing else, it will help you strategize. 

[kbutton]

7 minutes ago, ericathemom said:

I am so conflicted on the adhd thing. He totally might have it. But, he might also be just a high-energy, easily-distractable kid that is thriving in the homeschool world. He's crazy smart in math, engineering, science, etc.

These two things don't need to be at odds with each other. Two sides of the same coin. ADHD on one side and distractible, fun, amazing on the other side.

I agree with Katy though, and we're in the category that regrets waiting. We did want to make sure ADHD was the only thing (in our case, it was not the only thing for either of the kids), but we still waited too long after that. 

Also, meds seem to be more effective (generally speaking) for kids because kids learn new ways of doing things along with the meds, and their brains develop pathways for those new things. For adults, it's less smooth. (This is my understanding--I don't have ADHD, so someone who does might express what I'm driving at differently.)

[matrips]

One of the best things we did for my ds was therapy for retained reflexes.  We had an awesome OT who with a specialty in that.  My ds was a great kid, a sweet kid, but also one that had self control issues;  I used to get lots of phone calls.  It was a bit time-consuming and expensive, but I only wish I knew about it years earlier.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Pursue evaluations.  He needs to be able to obey for his own sake, so that he can participate in the activities he loves. 

[HomeAgain]

Sometimes, kids need a little more oversight and immediate feedback than what we think they need.  I don't have a kid with ADHD.  My experience is limited to those I've worked with outside my family.  But I always had a clear policy of "find your mama" for anything beyond a first warning.  With my own kids, it was a first warning and immediate removal by me.  Knowing that I would absolutely take a kid home from Disneyworld 5 minutes after opening if it came to that meant my kids tended to weigh their actions a little more carefully.  Yes, kids act up, but knowing the expectations and developing the small bits of self discipline to maintain an acceptable level of behavior are a developed skill.
 

[prairiewindmomma]

Your kid's behaviors are keeping him from being able to participate in activities that he enjoys. It's time to get help. Seek evaluations and go from there.

I waited too long to start meds with my oldest. He internalized a lot of negative messages about himself (which he didn't share with me until years later).  Meds get a person to the place where they can then use their cognitive and other skills to help them govern themselves.

There are a wide variety of medication options out there. You might even consider a short acting med only on school days, and leave weekends med-free.  I suspect once he tries meds you'll know better exactly what he needs.  Meds don't destroy a person or their personality, it lets them be able to participate in the things they want to and have success.

[BlsdMama]

13 minutes ago, kbutton said:

These two things don't need to be at odds with each other. Two sides of the same coin. ADHD on one side and distractible, fun, amazing on the other side.

I agree with Katy though, and we're in the category that regrets waiting. We did want to make sure ADHD was the only thing (in our case, it was not the only thing for either of the kids), but we still waited too long after that. 

Also, meds seem to be more effective (generally speaking) for kids because kids learn new ways of doing things along with the meds, and their brains develop pathways for those new things. For adults, it's less smooth. (This is my understanding--I don't have ADHD, so someone who does might express what I'm driving at differently.)

This is us. I so badly wish I’d had DS (now 16) on meds at 9 when the first neuropsych suggested it. I was frustrated with behavior and learning focus and it hurt our relationship. I resisted for three years. I caused a lot of damage there. 
 

As an aside, he is not my only ADHD child. DS22 is ADHD and we didn’t medicate. DD19 is ADHD and, interestingly, she is choosing to get a formal diagnosis and medication because her focus for college needs help. DD11 is ADHD and not medicated. DD9 is medicated for school hours only. 
 

I guess I add that last paragraph to say we aren’t pro medication. We’re pro kid. Whatever way we can help our kids succeed at life, that’s where we want to go. 
 

I’d suggest an evaluation and meds  trial. Worst case? You decide it’s not for you. Best case? Your kid isn’t angry with himself because he impulsively screwed up something he really wanted. 😞 Don’t think of it as being “for” medication so much as seeking a tool to help your child to succeed. 

[Bambam]

My gauge for when to seek professional health is when whatever is causing child to be unable to regularly participate in activities/interests/whatever that is age appropriate and of interest to them.  Just because I seek professional health does not mean I'm agreeing to meds. It means I'm seeking info and based on that info, there may be a variety of options I can try to help - meds may be the only one, but until I investigate I can't know that.  Once I have concrete info, then we can figure out what we want to do. 

I would seek out an evaluation. 

[Acadie]

I'd pursue an eval too, and bring up the possibilities of ADHD and sensory processing disorder. If he's able to listen and participate appropriately in robotics and swimming, that tells you something. If drums aren't working out, even though he's interested and has a great sense of rhythm, is he overwhelmed by the sensory input and acting out as a result? 

He may need meds at this point, and it's also possible he's okay doing things he's interested in when not overstimulated by sensory input. Talking with his pediatrician and pursuing evals will help you suss out what's happening and what he needs, which might be occupational therapy for sensory processing disorder, ADHD meds, managing sensory input, switching instruments, or something else.

The eval isn't a road to a certain outcome, it's a process of discovering what works for your son and your family. You sound like an attentive parent and there will be no better advocate for your son, who stands to benefit in many ways as his needs are discerned and addressed. Wishing you and your family the best in sorting this out. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Acadie

[Scarlett]

I am curious what he has to say about his behavior that gets him removed from activities. 

[ScoutTN]

Agreeing with evals.

Though meds have not been the huge help here that they are for some.

[KungFuPanda]

Try to imagine that we're not raising children, we're raising adults.  You CAN move heaven and earth to create the perfect environment for him at home, but that doesn't help him cope in a world where people won't jump through hoops for him.  I have a son who is non-ambulatory.  I wouldn't refuse to get him a wheelchair because I could just bring everything to him.  He wouldn't learn to navigate the world that way. Yes, accommodations are really important for all sorts of reasons, but ideally you want to get your student to the point where he can function in a normal classroom, or camp, or college lecture hall.

Get therapies and evaluations as early as you can.  If a medication doesn't work for him, he doesn't have to be on it for the rest of his life.  You can taper off, or try something else, but it MIGHT work.  It might make your life and his better and you might wish you'd done it sooner and spared him the drum lesson scenario.  Maybe an evaluation would reveal that he needs a therapy and not a medication.  You won't know until you schedule the evaluation.

I do appreciate that you're experimenting with different activities and finding things he loves.  Have you considered a dance class to channel his energy and gift with rhythm?

[Harriet Vane]

Information is always a good thing. When you have all the facts, you have a much clearer idea of what the options are. 
 

Get a FULL neuropsych evaluation and research all the options to respond to his needs. 

[mathnerd]

29 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

I do appreciate that you're experimenting with different activities and finding things he loves.  Have you considered a dance class to channel his energy and gift with rhythm?

I agree. Also, a really good and experienced Tae Kwon Do (or any other marital arts) instructor would be a great person to help him channel his energy, develop his listening abilities, teach excellent self-control and work with his gift with rhythm. Having been inside a TKD studio for the past 12 years, I have seen this happening a lot and would be the first thing that I would recommend.

[City Mouse]

Getting an evaluation and/or diagnosis does not mean you have to choose medicine as a treatment, but if his behaviors are interfering with activities that he does want to participate in, then it is time to do something 

[Ausmumof3]

You could try reading Smart but Scattered or some of the other ADD type help books.  And seeking evaluations doesn’t mean you have to medicate.  It might just give you a better idea of what’s going on.  But like you say, often we can adapt and have working strategies already at home, it’s just for situations outside of that that things get difficult.

[cjzimmer1]

Your story sounds so much like that of a close relative.  The child is question was kicked out of so many things by the time he reached high school that he had a bad reputation with teachers he had never met.  While ADHD had been mentioned off and on as a child, the family in question didn't really understand it well and no one had really said you NEED to look into this.  Kiddo was 16 when they finally persued testing and medicine.  Kiddo CRIED from sheer relief and gratefulness for the changes the medicine brought about.  Imagine a 16 year boy crying to his mom "Thank You for letting me get the medicine".  The mom has told me years later, she still kicks herself for not doing it sooner but she really just didn't understand how all his issues were tied to the ADHD.  Kiddo is in college now.  He still struggles with some of the impulse control but with medicine he can at least function, without medcine he cannot.  

My advice is at least look into the testing and discuss options.  Nothing says you have to take the medicine but it good to know what your options are.  Also I know there can be a stigma to taking medicine and some people view it as drugging your spirited kid but for some kids it really is necessary and don't be ashamed if that's the help he needs.  It would be so much better now than waiting like my relative did.

[Farrar]

Gently, I think your embarrassment is possibly holding you back from helping your kid. It's normal to feel that way - I've felt that way many times and my kids are mostly neurotypical. Kids can be terrible. But also... kids rarely get kicked out of all their activities over several years unless there's something going on under the surface. Who knows what because you've been hesitant to look into it. But not looking at the issue won't magically make it go away.

I suspect that once you've gone for a full neuropsych - and yes, make it a full evaluation! - that it will be hugely empowering. You'll be able to help him join the next activity by proactively approaching the leader/teacher and saying, "My kid has ____. We're working on getting under control in these ways. He will needs _____ and _____ as accommodations. Are these things you can provide? If you need help from me, I can offer _____ and _____." Being able to start an activity that way is going to make a huge difference. So is knowing what's going on and having a strategy for how to support him. That strategy does not necessarily mean medication. Start by getting the diagnosis and go from there. It may be something very different from what you imagine. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

Are there times / situations where he is successful enough to participate in group things? 

[katilac]

5 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Are there times / situations where he is successful enough to participate in group things? 

The OP says robotics class and swim team. 

[wendyroo]

All four of my kiddos are now diagnosed with and medicated for ADHD. Three of them also have other mental health and developmental challenges.

I would strongly encourage you to seek a full neuropsych evaluation and keep an open mind about medications and other treatments.

Here is something I wrote on this board about my oldest in 2016 when he was 6 years old:

Quote

We haven't yet found an ADHD medication that works for my son...I think there is a very real risk that going through his formative years with an untreated mental illness could have significant negative long-term effects. Day to day, minute to minute he fails to live up to expectations: mine and DH's, his coaches', society's, his own. He is constantly rejected by his siblings and peers because he grabs toys, hits and shoves, breaks things, is too hyper and impulsive. He wants to sit and read a book, play with a friend, write a story about ninjas, finish his math quickly so he can go play, behave in such a way that people aren't frustrated with him, but his brain is constantly sabotaging his efforts.

And here are two things I wrote in 2019 when my three oldest (then 6, 8 and 10 years old) were all on fairly successful ADHD meds:

Quote

 

On a daily basis, I have multiple opportunities to see all three of my boys both on and off their medications.  The differences are striking.  Off medication their handwriting is nearly indecipherable.  Off medication they struggle with even simple, one-step math problems that they could answer in a heart beat when medicated.  Off medication they don't enjoy reading, and certainly don't remember what they read.  Off medication they struggle to play or do art or follow directions in gym class.  Off medication they are impulsive and easily irritated.  Off medication they lose and misplace things CONSTANTLY.  Off medication they drop several levels of piano playing skills.

Now I'm not saying that their medication is an absolute silver bullet that turns them into little perfectly behaved angels...no.  But, it truly does positively impact every aspect of their lives.  Even now, after having them on medication for many years, I am still sometimes taken aback at the skills they lose when the medication wears off.  And it's not that the medication is giving them those skills, but rather that I have worked very hard to teach them the skills, and the medication allows them to apply those skills and behaviors in positive, functional, beneficial ways.

 

Quote

 

I don't want it to sound like it was an easy decision for us or has been a smooth journey from the beginning.  Along with ADHD, my oldest has ASD and anxiety, which made it very difficult to find an effective medication; we went through 9 different medication trials over the course of a year before we found one that worked. 

Every time we faced trying yet another new medication, I would start to question whether that was the right decision for DS.  And every time I would look deep into my soul and confirm that I was indeed doing what I thought was in DS's best interest.  We were not trying to medicate him so that he could conveniently sit still at a desk all day - he was a homeschooled 6 year old, there was no real reason for him to sit still often or for very long.  No, we were trying to medicate him to allow him to experience life and be able to participate in his childhood.

When my kids are unmedicated, they can't successfully play with peers.  They can't make mud pies or construct cities out of blocks.  They can't safely ride a bike along a sidewalk because they can't focus on watching where they are going.  They can't listen to read alouds or successfully help make cookies.  They are constantly hurting themselves by literally running into walls and hurting each other by impulsively hitting and kicking.

It was a hard road finding a medication that worked, but once we got over that hurdle, there has never been any question in our minds as to whether this is the right path for the boys.  One of the biggest factors for us is that the boys like what they can do on medication.  They like being able to focus and plan and remember.  They like being able to play elaborate pretend games.  They like being able to read funny books and do puzzles and ride their bikes around the block.  They are more confident on medication...and that is worth a lot to me.

 

And now here we are two years later, and I am even more grateful that we found a medication to help my kids. Social expectations increase tremendously as kids get older. Friendships become more important, but peers become more judgmental. At 12, my oldest very much wants to make friends, but is hampered by his autism. Thankfully, his ADHD is controlled well enough that that isn't an additional hurdle. Even though he normally cannot recognize and imitate typical social behaviors, if he is explicitly taught cues and expectations, then his medication gives him enough impulse control to think before he acts and implement the social strategies he has learned. It allows him to thrive in activities he values and form relationships with classmates.

[ericathemom]

2 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I am curious what he has to say about his behavior that gets him removed from activities. 

He said that he was confused by the teacher telling him too many things at once. Sometimes he'll say he was bored in class or that he can't hear the teacher well. As this kiddo's parent, I know that he only rarely takes responsibility for his outbursts. But I also know that he is so easily distracted by all the cool drum equipment.

33 minutes ago, Lucy the Valiant said:

Are there times / situations where he is successful enough to participate in group things? 

He's on a swim team and in a robotics class. He's gotten into trouble a couple of times in swim but I think that swimming feeds a constant tactile need and he does a fine most of the time. He has complained a couple times about robotics being "boring" during the coding portions but when he gets back to building with his hands he loves it again.

[ktgrok]

3 minutes ago, ericathemom said:

He said that he was confused by the teacher telling him too many things at once.

This SCREAMS working memory/processing speed issues. (often found in ADHD but not always linked, I don't think?)

Please please please get him evaluated. Truly, life is REALLY frustrating when you feel like he is describing. 

[ericathemom]

Wow. I think I have some phone calls to make. 

I do have another question. Has anyone here had to convince their spouse that whatever is going in with the kid might not actually be a product of unstructured parenting? My spouse has stated that he believes that adhd has been massively over-diagnosed and "adhd" kids are (including ours), for the most part, products of permissive parenting, too much technology, etc.

My goal is to do right by my kid but I know it'll be so much easier if spouse and I can be on the same page.

Edited October 1, 2021 by ericathemom
Typos

[Harriet Vane]

Gently, right now, you and your spouse are operating on assumptions without research. On what does your spouse base his opinion--some articles he read in the media? Or a chat with some other parents? Even if it is over-diagnosed, does that mean ADHD is a myth, or are there some children that actually have that medical condition? It would be one thing if you simply asked your family doctor to prescribe something. That's seeking a diagnosis without an evaluation--but you're not doing that. What will serve your child best is a full neuropsych evaluation. The clinicians who evaluate children have tools and diagnostic criteria. And there are decades of research now that inform the standards. Get a full neuropsych so there's no guesswork, just pure information. 

[Tanaqui]

In addition to working memory issues, "confused by the teacher saying too much at once" sounds like possible auditory processing issues to me.

You need to have your kid evaluated, and you know it. The longer you wait, the worse it's gonna get -you don't want to wait until the kid has labelled himself bad - or stupid, or lazy, or weird, or any of a hundred other things that kids call themselves when they don't know why they can't act like the other children.

You don't actually need anybody's permission to get an evaluation. Your child has two parents. If you can't get the other one on board, you can just do this without him. You wouldn't wait for permission to treat a broken arm, would you? What about depression or anxiety? Without an appropriate course of treatment, kids with ADHD often become adults with ADHD *and* mental health issues.

[wendyroo]

9 minutes ago, ericathemom said:

Wow. I think I have some phone calls to make. 

I do have another question. Has anyone here had to convince their spouse that whatever is going in with the kid might not actually be a product of unstructured parenting? My spouse has stated that he believes that adhd has been massively over-diagnosed and "adhd" kids are (including ours), for the most part, products of permissive parenting, too much technology, etc.

My goal is to do right by my kid but I know it'll be so much easier if spouse and I can be on the same page.

In our case, my kids' ADHD is a combination of nurture and nature. Controlling their symptoms requires both medication and parenting them with a lot (like a truly ridiculous amount) of structure and consistency.

Our parenting has been under a microscope for the last decade as we have gotten "educated" by all the early interventionists, therapists, developmental pediatricians, psychiatrists, and BCBAs assigned to our children. Nobody has ever suggested that we are too permissive. We are consistently rated as authoritative parents who lovingly impose firm, fair, consistent limits. The BCBA who works with my second son insists that the only reason my oldest has thrived without professional ABA therapy is because our home is always run very much like ABA therapy.

While DH and I are engineers who probably always would have parented with routines and structure, our parenting style is also largely influenced by the personalities of our particular children. It was clear very early on (like, within the first 6 months), that our oldest was not neurotypical, and that he did best with very high levels of structure and predictability. Over the years it became clear that being permissive and not clearly establishing and enforcing expectations and boundaries actually led to the children feeling uncomfortable, anxious, disregulated, and losing faith in our commitment and therefore pushing back strongly against all rules and limits to test who was actually in control. Too much (or at times any) technology also led to those same issues.

But even with parents who are not permissive, and with very limited screen time, my kids all still have diagnosable ADHD. And even when they are medicated, my kids still really struggle when DH or I occasionally slip and become less proactive, structured and consistent. It has always been described to us that the less internal regulation a child has, the more external regulation they need in order to thrive in a given situation.

So, like your husband, I also think ADHD is sometimes over-diagnosed in cases of permissive, unstructured parents. I also think it is too often diagnosed when children are being expected to act in age-inappropriate ways (none of my kids at 6 would have been able to sit in at a desk in a classroom for many hours a day, but I never held that against them). I think many kids are innately flexible and adaptable and do fine in most situations and under different parenting styles...and I think other kids are decidedly not flexible and adaptable and really only thrive in certain environments with specific, well-thought-out parenting strategies.

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, ericathemom said:

He said that he was confused by the teacher telling him too many things at once. Sometimes he'll say he was bored in class or that he can't hear the teacher well. As this kiddo's parent, I know that he only rarely takes responsibility for his outbursts. But I also know that he is so easily distracted by all the cool drum equipment.

You're assuming this is ADHD, however ADHD is *not* an excuse for behaviors and the behaviors you're describing might not be ADHD exclusively.

41 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

In addition to working memory issues, "confused by the teacher saying too much at once" sounds like possible auditory processing issues to me.

Bingo.

So op needs to look for an audiologist who does APD and get an APD screening. Some audiologists will also want an SLP eval (speech language pathology) as part of it. APD is kind of an interesting diagnosis because it involves *language* processing. So whether an audiologist or SLP treats it, what they're looking at is *language*. https://www.therapro.com/Differential-Processing-Training-Program-Acoustic-Tasks.html  This is a 3 book series I've been using with my ds. My dd wears a filter from ABLE Kids. They present differently but both are considered to have auditory processing issues. 

Ditto the recommend to check for retained reflexes.

If op can get the dc an OT eval, you want the OT to check for retained reflexes and also to look at sensory, self regulation, etc. There are some programs commonly used (ALERT, Zones of Regulation, Interoception). The comment about him not taking responsibility for his outbursts is concerning and you want to know how deep this goes. For instance, my ds had significant self awareness (interoception) issues, so he didn't realize when he was about to blow, what his body signals were, or how to keep from getting there and what would make it better. And unfortunately, when a person has a meltdown, sometimes the stress is so significant they literally don't remember what happened. 

1 hour ago, ericathemom said:

Wow. I think I have some phone calls to make. 

Yes, you have 3 or 4 different evals you could be making now, all of which will contribute information. What the school SHOULD have done was a multi-factored eval. My ds has had them through the school and they look at all the areas (audiology, SLP, OT, psych, etc. ). So if you're doing this privately, MAKE THAT HAPPEN. Don't fizz out with just a psych eval, because even a long neuropsych eval (btdt in spades) WILL NOT give you complete information. You need all the components to get the full picture. 

You need to move your embarrassment into action. You need information and evals are how you get the information. Some kids are like little gifts that you keep unwrapping, and every time you think you've done it all there's another layer to unwrap.

1 hour ago, ericathemom said:

My spouse has stated that he believes that adhd has been massively over-diagnosed and "adhd" kids are (including ours), for the most part, products of permissive parenting, too much technology, etc.

ADHD has 3 subtypes, and the way it presents will depend on the genetics of the kid. So if you actually want to know why this is happening, run genetics. It's completely unacceptable to say well I have the genetics for ADHD (which obviously one or both of you have) and I got on fine so my kid should get on fine too. Hogwash. Each person's mix is unique and sometimes a person has some balancing genes that the next generation didn't get. So maybe he got a dab of this from you and a dab of that from dad, and alone none of it was too noteworthy but all together it makes for a challenge for the boy to keep under control.

IF THE DC COULD KEEP IT UNDER CONTROL, HE WOULD. Say that to yourself, over and over. Kids WANT TO PLEASE. Therefore, when they are in highly bonded, nurturing, supportive, reasonably parented situations and things are not going well, something is up. You don't have to doubt yourself and say it's your fault. It's only your fault if you don't get information now that you know. He wasn't even really old enough for the APD eval until now, so don't feel too bad. Just move forward with evals now.

1 hour ago, ericathemom said:

convince their spouse that whatever is going in with the kid might not actually be a product of unstructured parenting?

Ok, I'm not very nice on this because I was on the receiving end of this blameshifting, of people saying I was diagnosis shopping, of people saying it was my fault, of people saying "he's fine with a MAN", on and on. So I'd encourage you to wrangle your feminist hackles a bit and stand up to this kind of abuse. It's completely without basis, substantiation, or any knowledge of disabilities and what is actually possibly going on with the dc.

https://www.socialthinking.com/Articles?name=social-thinking-social-communication-profile  I'd encourage you to read through this article and see if anyone in your house falls into these social thinking profiles. You'll need to learn about them eventually, because odds are your ds is going to need some social thinking instruction. But see where your dh falls. 😉 

Good lawyers, good evals, these things save marriages. Head in the sand will not solve what you're seeing and someone has to do the ugly work and get it done. It may take years before the other parent half gets a clue and maybe they never totally get it. You can try to bring him along as you learn, sure. But you should be concerned about your son enough to push the issue of evals and make them happen.

Evals are NOT saying meds need to happen. Evals are saying you want to know WHAT  is happening. The actual best data is that *behavioral intervention* before meds (not concurrent even) gets the best outcomes. Is he SAFE? At this age, because he is young, safety is a prime concern. If he is SAFE, as in he's not a danger to himself or others, he's not eloping (leaving the house, leaving the property, leaving your group when you're out), then you have some leeway here to do other things first.

The top 3 I would be doing that you could do quickly?

1) Check for retained reflexes. Find videos on youtube and do this immediately, tomorrow morning. Report back here and we can guide you if you find any retained. Odds are you will.

2) Get audiology (ideally with an audiologist set up for APD) and SLP evals. 

3) Begin https://www.socialthinking.com/Products/we-thinkers-volume-1-2-curriculum-bundle  This program with him. You can either do it yourself (fine) or find a clinic with SLPs and OTs who are doing it (probably better). The lessons are play and narrative based and go through *basic concepts* where he may have some holes. If you really think he doesn't need these lessons (and I wouldn't assume that, given what you're describing), then next step is Zones of Regulation, which you can also find at the Social Thinking site. Zones is going to hit that self regulation piece. If he has self awareness issues (doesn't realize when he's hurt or tired, underidentifies or overidentifies body signals, struggles to realize how he feels or what would make him feel better), then you want https://www.kelly-mahler.com/what-is-interoception/

And while you're doing those things, you can track down the neuropsych/psych for that eval. Psychs typically have a longer wait, so don't wait on these other things while you're waiting for the psych. The audiology, SLP, OT evals and pragmatics/social thinking stuff could make big differences right away. None of these are meds, and they don't involve waiting for 3-6 months for a psych to see improvements. 

Meds are fine, but there's a time and a place. Work through the process, gather the information, see what is going on. If there is a *safety* issue would I move forward on meds faster. Otherwise, get some evals, see what you've got. 

Fwiw, I would go *observe* those robotics and swimming classes to make sure they're actually going as well as you think they are. We have the problem as homeschoolers that enough people aren't seeing our kids enough hours to fill out the psych forms reliably. So you want to see him in a variety of settings *for yourself* so you can report to the psych and on those forms what is happening. When my ds was young, first round of his evals, we tried to have others like a swim teacher fill out the forms. Well she knew stuff was up, but the stuff she saw wan't on the forms even though she had 40 years of teaching experience!! It was subtle stuff like joint attention and referencing. And the stuff that was on the forms she didn't see because she only saw him during class, not the behaviors before and after.

So it's just something to watch for with the forms, sigh. Observe him yourself so you know what is going on. People sometimes cover and you may see things when you observe.

Edited October 1, 2021 by PeterPan

[gardenmom5]

Is he doing private lessons or group lessons?  Some kids have a super hard time waiting while someone else is taking their turn.  It can be worth the extra cost.

It can also be he needs a more physical outlet.  martial arts is known for really helping kids learn focus (provided it's a legit studio, and not just out to make money - some are the latter.).   My son still couldn't do group for MA, but he could do private lessons.  (unfortunately, at that time, I really couldn't afford them.)

you can do this along with evals' - MA can be very beneficial both for energetic kids, and ADHD kids.  - It's the bilateral coordination.

[Tanaqui]

Note: To be clear, auditory processing issues are often comorbid with learning disabilities such as ADHD. The one very much does not preclude the other, and you ultimately are going to want to screen for both. (And for sensory processing issues etc.)

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, ericathemom said:

Wow. I think I have some phone calls to make. 

I do have another question. Has anyone here had to convince their spouse that whatever is going in with the kid might not actually be a product of unstructured parenting? My spouse has stated that he believes that adhd has been massively over-diagnosed and "adhd" kids are (including ours), for the most part, products of permissive parenting, too much technology, etc.

My goal is to do right by my kid but I know it'll be so much easier if spouse and I can be on the same page.

Well, a full neuropsych workup will show the objective things going on. Permissive parenting doesn't cause a kid to have weak working memory, for instance. There are objective things going on. 

Also, you can actually SEE differences in the brain in people with ADHD on certain brain scans. 

Now, are there kids that are just being obnoxious and haven't been taught that behavior has consequences? Sure. But your kid has been kicked out of multiple things that he WANTED to do - right there that shows he KNOWS his behavior has consequences - but he can't stop the behavior. 

Yes, parenting a kid with ADHD can look different because they ARE different. My mom thought my kid with ASD didn't talk to people becuase I spoke for him, i was too easy on him. No, I spoke for him because he COULDN'T speak for himself. People get the cause and effect backwards. 

But seriously, an outside evaluation will show objective proof of issues with attention, memory, processing speed, etc if those are the issue. Then, IF ADHD is the diagnosis we can help you find stuff on that. Scientific stuff. And as someone with ADHD who was diagnosed as an adult, I can't help but wish I'd gotten diagnosed earlier. I would have an entirely different script in my head about myself. Instead of being labeled ADHD I was labeled messy, careless, sloppy, scatterbrained, and considered myself incapable of finishing anything I started. Meds changed that, but I still have those labels in my head. 

These videos are really really good so maybe start there. 

 

[Dmmetler]

I will also say-if you want to do music lessons, look for a teacher who is good with kids with special needs. I would suggest 1-1 (possibly with you in the room as well) and, for percussion, someone who will start with a single drum/hand drumming/mallets  instead of set drumming, to allow more focus on one instrument and potentially incorporate more movement. (This may be my bias talking as an Orff trained music and movement specialist-but I have found it effective with kids with ADHD DX, especially when I'm getting them after the meds have worn off). 

 

Even if a child is NOT DX'd, or has symptoms, but doesn't quite hit a diagnosis (which seems to happen more with homeschooled kids here), finding someone who has expertise with special needs generally means you've got someone who is going to do what it takes to make it work for your child, instead of throwing up their hands and walking away. 

 

If you can find a music therapist, that's even better-but there are often good private teachers who will work with your child where they are, and work with you to find what works. 

[prairiewindmomma]

9 hours ago, ericathemom said:

Has anyone here had to convince their spouse that whatever is going in with the kid might not actually be a product of unstructured parenting? My spouse has stated that he believes that adhd has been massively over-diagnosed and "adhd" kids are (including ours), for the most part, products of permissive parenting, too much technology, etc.

Yes. At the time we were new enough into the marriage that I didn't realize that his default button is denial. Nor did I realize that some of the traits I was seeing in my kid also reside in my husband, which was making the denial button push even harder.

If I were to give advice to myself then from the position of me now I would say:

1. These behaviors are clearly causing problems that others are seeing. Those same behaviors are not present in other children.

2. If I take what you are saying at face value, dh, you are telling me that we have caused these behaviors in our child by being too permissive and by allowing too much technology. I don't think that's the case.  In fact, that's a form of blaming and shaming that I'm really uncomfortable with.  I am willing to stretch my imagination and think that perhaps there's a segment of the population for whom that's true, but the kid in front of us, the one we are responsible for parenting, is having repeated issues in activities and that's not normal.

3. Our job is to raise a functioning adult. If we're at the point of this kid not being able to participate in activities, where they see other kids with adhd and other special needs, we've got a problem. Let's just go do the evaluations and see if others see what we're seeing and go from there.

-------------------

BTW, kid #1 we had evaluated had a slew of diagnoses by the end of the evaluation, including some physical things we hadn't picked up like one eye wasn't processing vision and a bunch of other stuff. We did years of physical therapy, and things are so much better.

The second kid we had evaluated went onto meds for ADHD. He can do calculus and higher math with meds on board, and can't remember simple tasks without them.

Not surprisingly, if you look at dh's family tree, there are some pretty strong genes for ADHD and learning disabilities. 

[heartlikealion]

I haven't read all the replies. 

Step 1. Get him tested for ADHD

It's all speculation right now. The medication thing is not part of step 1. 

And, based on my personal experience, please look into retained primitive reflexes. My kids were diagnosed with them and the occupational therapist said that impacts behavior. Dd wouldn't even sit still or leave the OT alone long enough to talk to me even though we gave her something to do. The therapist said that dd was more high energy than her peers and that some of the impulsiveness should fade when the retained primitive reflexes were addressed. She currently goes to OT sessions (I think it's like 12 weeks all together). 

Only certain occupational therapists have a good understanding of retained primitive reflexes in their wheelhouse. Ds has gone to two OTs but the first didn't help and the second was recommended by both his audiologist and the developmental optometrist we see. So I urge you to investigate OTs in your area and also you can look up some of the tests at home. I was not very successful with that route. I know ds has moro reflex. 

[heartlikealion]

Oh and embarrassment is totally normal... dd apparently licked the OT during the evaluation appointment (I wasn't in the room when it happened) and she included that in her report. I was mortified when I read that. We asked dd about it and I think she said she was pretending to be an animal. We also saw the humor in it. 

[vonfirmath]

15 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Your kid's behaviors are keeping him from being able to participate in activities that he enjoys. It's time to get help. Seek evaluations and go from there.

I waited too long to start meds with my oldest. He internalized a lot of negative messages about himself (which he didn't share with me until years later).  Meds get a person to the place where they can then use their cognitive and other skills to help them govern themselves.

There are a wide variety of medication options out there. You might even consider a short acting med only on school days, and leave weekends med-free.  I suspect once he tries meds you'll know better exactly what he needs.  Meds don't destroy a person or their personality, it lets them be able to participate in the things they want to and have success.

When my son started medicine, he told me it was like, before he was drowning and saw all these people out there laughing at his predicament. After the medicine, he was still flailing in the water. But he recognized the other people out there were trying to help him and had hope he might be able to survive.

 

ETA: I didn't see the issues so much at home. As mom, I stayed on top of him -- reminding him, etc. in ways that other teachers can't in a one adult:many environment.  So he struggled the most away from home.  I didn't even realize how much I was able to anticipate the problems, etc

Edited October 1, 2021 by vonfirmath

[PeterPan]

2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Oh and embarrassment is totally normal... dd apparently licked the OT during the evaluation appointment

That's a very spectrum thing, just saying.

[wendyroo]

2 hours ago, heartlikealion said:

Oh and embarrassment is totally normal... dd apparently licked the OT during the evaluation appointment (I wasn't in the room when it happened) and she included that in her report. I was mortified when I read that. We asked dd about it and I think she said she was pretending to be an animal. We also saw the humor in it. 

One of my sons kicked the evaluator before we even made it out of the waiting room. It wasn't on purpose; the evaluator had called DS's name, so we walked over near him, and he paused briefly to ask me if I had the paperwork or if the front desk had taken it. It was only a 15 second "wait", but DS could not be still for that long and did a spinning kick to keep himself busy. Unfortunately, he did not stop to consider if that was a good idea in such close proximity to other people before his foot was already whirling around and connecting with the doctor's knee. I felt it was a fitting start to an ADHD evaluation.

[heartlikealion]

21 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

That's a very spectrum thing, just saying.

Yes, that is a good point. She doesn't set off red flags for me as far as spectrum, but I've been saying for some time that I suspect ds may be on it. My hands are tied right now and I cannot push for an eval. I have shared legal custody, but there's way too much friction from me scheduling testing. At least dd is making progress with her OT. Ds is not very cooperative, though. 

[kbutton]

14 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

Note: To be clear, auditory processing issues are often comorbid with learning disabilities such as ADHD. The one very much does not preclude the other, and you ultimately are going to want to screen for both. (And for sensory processing issues etc.)

https://www.igaps.org/  This is a good place to find people to test for APD. Many will offer therapy (yes, therapy can help some types).

Eye stuff was hinted at, but he should also be screened by a developmental optometrist for convergence issues or other related problems. Some of those issues respond to therapy as well. https://www.covd.org/ 

6 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Yes. At the time we were new enough into the marriage that I didn't realize that his default button is denial. Nor did I realize that some of the traits I was seeing in my kid also reside in my husband, which was making the denial button push even harder.

If I were to give advice to myself then from the position of me now I would say:

1. These behaviors are clearly causing problems that others are seeing. Those same behaviors are not present in other children.

2. If I take what you are saying at face value, dh, you are telling me that we have caused these behaviors in our child by being too permissive and by allowing too much technology. I don't think that's the case.  In fact, that's a form of blaming and shaming that I'm really uncomfortable with.  I am willing to stretch my imagination and think that perhaps there's a segment of the population for whom that's true, but the kid in front of us, the one we are responsible for parenting, is having repeated issues in activities and that's not normal.

3. Our job is to raise a functioning adult. If we're at the point of this kid not being able to participate in activities, where they see other kids with adhd and other special needs, we've got a problem. Let's just go do the evaluations and see if others see what we're seeing and go from there.

-------------------

BTW, kid #1 we had evaluated had a slew of diagnoses by the end of the evaluation, including some physical things we hadn't picked up like one eye wasn't processing vision and a bunch of other stuff. We did years of physical therapy, and things are so much better.

The second kid we had evaluated went onto meds for ADHD. He can do calculus and higher math with meds on board, and can't remember simple tasks without them.

Not surprisingly, if you look at dh's family tree, there are some pretty strong genes for ADHD and learning disabilities. 

All of this. My DH is totally on board now, but it was a big deal to get him there and nearly broke our marriage. But I was gonna break if I didn't have answers.

I will add to all of this, if your kid is hypermobile at all, that can sometimes tie together things that otherwise don't make sense. It doesn't explain ADHD, but sometimes it can be the cause of sensory issues--hypermobile bodies tend to not have well-integrated reflexes. 

[matrips]

19 hours ago, ericathemom said:

Wow. I think I have some phone calls to make. 

I do have another question. Has anyone here had to convince their spouse that whatever is going in with the kid might not actually be a product of unstructured parenting? My spouse has stated that he believes that adhd has been massively over-diagnosed and "adhd" kids are (including ours), for the most part, products of permissive parenting, too much technology, etc.

My goal is to do right by my kid but I know it'll be so much easier if spouse and I can be on the same page.

That’s why I appreciated our OT showing us the research behind retained reflexes and how some of them can mimic adhd and lead to angry outbursts etc.  My kid wanted to be good; his body wasn’t set up to help him.  To me, it was like finding the root cause and working to fix that.  I was so grateful for the coop teacher (former school teacher) that suggested it. 

[catz]

A child at 8 that couldn't sit through a 30-60 minute music lesson where he is getting 1-1 attention to the point of getting dropped by 2 different teachers probably does is ready for a neuropsych eval.  I would not get too ahead of yourself on thinking meds or diagnosis yet.  He may also be 2E which would also be good to know.  

Is he disappointed he doesn't get to go to drums anymore?  If he is, he may really not be able to self control.  I think for kids like this, being plugged into info and services sooner rather than later may be better.

I'm sorry you are feeling embarrassed.  I think we all have those moments as parents, especially those of us with quirky kids.  

[heartlikealion]

Your spouse may or may not ever be on the same page. But one or both of you will need to fill out a questionnaire about your child for most testing. Since APD was brought up… I got some hesitation from the Hive about having a child tested for APD while ADHD was a factor and the child wasn’t on ADHD medication. The audiologist said that it would not affect the test results (just quoting her, she seemed to think that her test was thorough enough to be accurate). 

My son was diagnosed with mild ADHD inattentive type and Auditory Processing Disorder and retained reflexes. He did not want the ear devices and we agreed to the Hear Builder program that the audiologist adjusts on her end to make harder. Ds says it’s too easy and a waste of time. YMMV. 

[ericathemom]

Oh my goodness. Thank you everyone! I have a long list of research topics, phone calls to make, experts to find and books to read. I'm a smidge overwhelmed but I finally have a direction to start and some concepts to learn about. I even took everything mentioned above and created a prioritized task list that will start working on them tomorrow.

Somebody above was concerned about safety; everyone is fine. There's no concern about any danger. Thank you for keeping an eye out for that.

I'll come back with any updates as time goes on.

 

Edited October 2, 2021 by ericathemom
Typos, as always

[prairiewindmomma]

https://www.vyvansepro.com/for-your-office?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=TAK|Vyvanse|ADHD|HCP|||Competitor+-+Mobile&utm_term=medication+ritalin_sitelink&utm_content=sitelink adhd patient education&gbraid=0AAAAADnMl8HlK-EfFpf1xvM_OE5ivjiAg&gbraid=0AAAAADnMl8HlK-EfFpf1xvM_OE5ivjiAg&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpPDTm66s8wIV5D6tBh3KjwZwEAAYASAGEgI1G_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
 

I thought this might be a helpful link. It has adhd questionnaires, education resources for parents, and efficacy studies. Best wishes!!

[kiwik]

If you can afford testing do it.  You may find out some stuff you didn't know.  Also it does make a bit difference whether it was group of individual.  My ASD son panics if he misses an instruction or can't work out what to do.  Rather than do the wrong thing he does nothing and if he has the wrong teacher who thinks he is being non complaint it can go downhill fast.  Lucky he has excellent teachers for both percussion and tap/ballet.

[Kanin]

6 hours ago, kiwik said:

My ASD son panics if he misses an instruction or can't work out what to do.  Rather than do the wrong thing he does nothing and if he has the wrong teacher who thinks he is being non complaint it can go downhill fast.

This is a really great observation. Definitely, what you can observe (kid not working, kid not following directions) is not always reflective of what's going on in the inside. 

[ktgrok]

2 hours ago, Kanin said:

This is a really great observation. Definitely, what you can observe (kid not working, kid not following directions) is not always reflective of what's going on in the inside. 

So true. My oldest did well in gymnastics until suddenly he didn't. He would wander off, etc. Turns out he got scared once, and rather than communicat that, he just tried to avoid the instructor entirely. Took me YEARS before I found that out!