Advice for daughter who is mistaken for a guy...

[6packofun]

My 19yo dd chooses to wear her hair short (on the sides and longer on top, usually the top dyed a fun color) and at work she is pretty regularly called "sir."  She is 5 feet tall, petite, cute, doesn't wear makeup, but the only thing I can think is that she looks so young that they think she's a younger teen boy.  Is there a way to correct people or should she not bother?  She works at Starbucks and on one hand she doesn't want some of these people to become regulars and continue thinking she's a guy, but many times she won't remember these people and is it worth it to say anything?

Her boss said that she shouldn't be surprised since she wears her hair short.  She thinks she looks feminine enough, doesn't have "masculine" features (whatever)--and has a chest although not large-chested--that her hair shouldn't matter.  We were both annoyed by his answer, although I can sort of see his point. 

How would you advise her?  It gets on her nerves but isn't ruining her day or anything and she's not mad at these people.  lol

[ktgrok]

visible feminine earrings? name tag?

[fairfarmhand]

1 minute ago, Ktgrok said:

visible feminine earrings? name tag?

That’s what I was going to suggest. 

Tiara?

[Annie G]

She’s wearing a name tag, right? does she have a name that could work for either a guy or Girl?

Dd works at Starbucks and someone there has the same problem- she looks neutral so I think maybe people think calling a girl a boy is less offensive than calling a boy a girl. who knows why. Anyway, if someone calls her sir while asking for something she turns around and looks behind her as if the customer was talking to someone behind her. Then she says oh you were talking to me. sorry-I’m a girl and didn’t realize you meant me.  I’m not explaining it well but I’ve seen her do it a few times and she does it so effortlessly that it’s not awkward at all and doesn’t embarrass the customer. 

if the person is a regular I’d make the effort to correct them. Most regulars have favorite baristas and know them by name and many baristas know their regular customers by name, too.  But if it’s mostly casual customers...don’t sweat it- they are probably just not paying attention. 

 

[PrincessMommy]

I was going to suggest big earrings too.

[snickerplum]

I would just correct people. Doesn’t take long to smile and just say, “Not a sir.” No biggie. 

[Annie G]

15 minutes ago, snickerplum said:

I would just correct people. Doesn’t take long to smile and just say, “Not a sir.” No biggie. 

You’re right- just a quick correction solves the problem. 

[6packofun]

26 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

visible feminine earrings? name tag?

 

She is wearing a name tag and it's a girl-only name.  I did suggest earrings to her today!

[6packofun]

16 minutes ago, snickerplum said:

I would just correct people. Doesn’t take long to smile and just say, “Not a sir.” No biggie. 

 

Is that what you would do and say?  "Not a sir"?  She doesn't want to be rude (I don't know that saying that IS rude, just wondering how people receive these things!)...I think she's just generally uncomfortable correcting strangers and yet wants to do it!

[ktgrok]

I bet the problem is that she has an apron on so her chest is not obvious and the counter often comes up to shoulder height almost if she has that short. They just can’t see her well. I do think some pretty earrings would definitely help.

[snickerplum]

I wouldn’t find it rude if someone said that to me. I’d probably feel bad for assuming,m and getting it wrong, but I wouldn’t be offended. If she said it with an annoyed look on her face or rolled her eyes, then it would be rude. ? Saying it with a kind smile is simply correcting. Like when someone thinks a bald headed baby is a boy, it’s not rude to say that it’s a girl. 

[Tap]

If it is predominately at work, then I would suggest she point at her name tag and as sweetly say "HI, it is nice to meet you JOE(look at name oncoffee cup), my name is Brianna.. Hope you enjoy your coffee!!"  That way it gets the point across and if they are a regular, it will reinforce what her name is. 

 

[Paige]

My DS has long hair and is often mistaken for a girl. It's happening less often the older he gets as his face is maturing, but honestly, from the side or back I might mistake him for myself in a photo! He's really cool about it and doesn't usually care. If it's a random stranger who assumes he's a girl, he ignores it. If she's expecting to see these customers regularly, I think she should gently correct them, however. It's not for herself as much as for their own embarrassment once they find out if it goes on for a while. The nice people who mistake him for a girl always feel terrible! The rude people continue to be rude...

I think earrings are great if she's allowed to wear them. Or, she could try smiling and saying, "You may call me First Name," which should be enough to clear up confusion since her name isn't ambiguous. 

[Catwoman]

I know you said she doesn’t wear makeup, but a little bit of sheer, subtle lip gloss might be enough to identify her as a girl without making her feel overly made-up.

[gardenmom5]

it can be hard to tell. hair isn't the issue.

I was being helped saturday by someone with super short hair dyed blue. no clues it was really a woman. (I felt embarrassed I was going to refer to her as a him - becasue that was how she was presenting herself, but I didn't want to offend either.  there was no outward clue.)

hair isn't necessarily a clue.  there's a tech at my pharmacy who has should?pastshoulders? length wavy hair.  sometimes up in a man bun, sometimes down.   but he has masculine facial features so I don't mistake him for a girl.

twiggy is known for how short her hair was in her 20's - no one mistook her for a boy.

some suggestions, *feminine* earrings (some guys wear studs), a pretty clip in her hair, something about her clothes that are feminine  (the line, the style, the cut, pattern, etc.), colored lipgloss (even if "just a hint" of color.)

[gaillardia]

One of my daughters has been mistaken for being male. She is clearly curvy like a female, but she has worn her hair fairly short and not worn makeup or earrings and people do mistake her for a guy. When she wears makeup, it doesn't matter how short her hair is, you can tell she's female. 

These are some very good responses. I like "I'm not a sir."

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

My son politely corrects Ma’ams and moves on.

Other than long hair he looks male. Whiskers, deep voice, clothing style. 

[easypeasy]

Lipgloss is a good suggestion if she's not entirely against the idea. Also like the idea to just - Smile and say, "Not a sir, but you're welcome!" (Assuming they've said "Thank you, sir...")

Another - could she introduce herself at the beginning of the transaction? "Hi! I'm Brianna, What can I get for you today?"

DD's best friend had the same issue as your dd! Cute as a BUTTON, but often mistaken for a young guy in "drive by" social situations. Even had a giggling girl come over to her at work one day, telling her that her friend (girl) thought "he" was cute. lol That poor girl's face when dd's friend gestured to her nametag (she has one of the girliest names possible), and said, "You sure about that?" lolololol!! Those two teens ran for the door so fast, poor dears. lol

[El...]

4 hours ago, StellaM said:

Who are all these people who have no eyes ?! 

 

Usually I agree, though I mess that up myself sometimes, and then that feels awkward.  I think her smile, whatever she says, will smooth over their discomfort. 

Also, Stella, I love the quote in your signature.  Just noticed it today.  ?  

[Guest]

4 hours ago, StellaM said:

Who are all these people who have no eyes ?! 

It's easy to confuse small children - there's not all that much difference between one clothed 6 year old and another, especially if they're all in unisex clothing.

But adults ?! I find it weird, that's all. Like people only see the hair length. Long = female, short = male. A young woman with short hair 99.9% of the time looks to me like a young woman with short hair. Even butch women still look like butch women.

Anyway. I'd just correct with a smile and move on. Your dd doesn't need to signify female with earrings, she IS female. 

Well, in defense of the confused, there is the whole gender blurring thing going on and, depending I assume, where one lives, it can be way more fraught than just taking a best guess. I was in a class with a person who was clearly born female but had neutralized his/her name, dressed as if male and was referred to with male pronouns by his(her) dear friend. 

Some people are intentionally eradicating all clues. I had this at a doctor’s office, where I uncomfortably tried to talk around pronouns because I could not tell and the name was, probably intentionally, neutral. (It was “Kie.”) 

For the orientation I recently attended with DS, as the tour guide students were introduced, the screen had their preferred pronouns displayed beneath their names. This tells me confusion is prevalent enough that it is necessary to avert it. 

When my SIL was undergoing treatment for breast cancer, she did begin to wear dangling earrings because she was mistaken for a man. 

If this was my daughter, I would advise her to leave more clues. Dangling earrings are probably one of the best options because, though some guys wear earrings, they rarely wear dangling, “pretty” earrings. I would recommend a bit of make up as well. 

[Night Elf]

My dd wears her hair super short and before she had a sizable bust, she just never said anything. It embarrassed her.

My ds wears his hair super long and has been called a girl. We were at a restaurant and I corrected the waitress just by laughing it off and saying this is my son.

I think she ought to correct people though, especially if she's going to see them more than once. They'll be embarrassed themselves if they've seen her for months and then find out they had her gender wrong.

[Katy]

I think if it's bothering her she can either grow out her hair or start making other intentional choices to look feminine.  Halle Berry is someone who's managed to look both feminine and have a pixie in the past. When I had short hair (a long time ago) it wasn't that long after Halle had cut hers off. I purposely modeled my makeup (especially visible eyeliner) and earrings after her.  I got tired of feeling forced to wear makeup everywhere so I grew my hair out fairly quickly.

Outside of work wearing feminine colors helps too.  IDK about how much that would matter at Starbucks.

[Hilltopmom]

Do they have to wear hats?

If not, a tiny barrette or clip in the bangs will help- I do that to dress up my pixie. Or a headband.

Pretty bracelet? Necklace? Earrings 

I’d probably look like a male in a typical “uniform” outfit too.

[gardenmom5]

7 hours ago, StellaM said:

Who are all these people who have no eyes ?! 

It's easy to confuse small children - there's not all that much difference between one clothed 6 year old and another, especially if they're all in unisex clothing.

But adults ?! I find it weird, that's all. Like people only see the hair length. Long = female, short = male. A young woman with short hair 99.9% of the time looks to me like a young woman with short hair. Even butch women still look like butch women.

Anyway. I'd just correct with a smile and move on. Your dd doesn't need to signify female with earrings, she IS female. 

I"m in a major metro area - we have a.l.l. types of people.   and yeah, for some, it can be hard to tell.

 

 

[gardenmom5]

18 minutes ago, Hilltopmom said:

Do they have to wear hats?

If not, a tiny barrette or clip in the bangs will help- I do that to dress up my pixie. Or a headband.

Pretty bracelet? Necklace? Earrings 

I’d probably look like a male in a typical “uniform” outfit too.

feminine . . . guys wear them too . . . .

 

I remember one couple.. . one with super short hair, one with very long flowing hair . . . . it took a second or third glance. . . .

[KungFuPanda]

It seems a 5 minute make-up routine would be les annoying or time consuming than correcting multiple people a day. If this happens a lot, it’s not just one idiot who isn’t paying attention. Her looks are on the line and people are making the wrong call. 

She should experiment and see what is the minimum amount of effort she can make to correct the problem. She may just need earrings, or tinted lip balm . . . it won’t take a full face of makeup; an eyebrow pencil may do the trick. A short necklace could work. 

[Ravin]

She could wear a button that says "girl" or has her pronouns on it. Or put she/her below her name on her nametag.

People need to learn not to assume gender. It's easy to get wrong.

[marbel]

33 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

It seems a 5 minute make-up routine would be les annoying or time consuming than correcting multiple people a day. If this happens a lot, it’s not just one idiot who isn’t paying attention. Her looks are on the line and people are making the wrong call. 

She should experiment and see what is the minimum amount of effort she can make to correct the problem. She may just need earrings, or tinted lip balm . . . it won’t take a full face of makeup; an eyebrow pencil may do the trick. A short necklace could work. 

I agree but I also see lots of males wearing makeup, and not in a KISS sort of way, but "regular" eye makeup, etc. 

Where I live, I encounter lots of people with non-obvious gender.  (I am not sure I said that right, forgive any clumsiness.)  It's not a matter of blindness, some people are just hard to peg in that way. Some people, I think, cultivate that look - which is fine, I'm not complaining about that.  Nor am I saying that the OP's daughter is doing that.   Just, it's not always easy and it is embarrassing to discover you've gotten it wrong.

[Katy]

2 minutes ago, marbel said:

I agree but I also see lots of males wearing makeup, and not in a KISS sort of way, but "regular" eye makeup, etc. 

Where I live, I encounter lots of people with non-obvious gender.  (I am not sure I said that right, forgive any clumsiness.)  It's not a matter of blindness, some people are just hard to peg in that way. Some people, I think, cultivate that look - which is fine, I'm not complaining about that.  Nor am I saying that the OP's daughter is doing that.   Just, it's not always easy and it is embarrassing to discover you've gotten it wrong.

 

Ehhh, I think unless you're in certain neighborhoods in a few cities it's far more common to encounter a woman with a pixie wearing makeup than a man wearing makeup.  Especially when combined with being short and having on feminine earrings.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

As soon as most people speak, you can be pretty sure whether they are male or female. The odd person is difficult to tell. As people age it can become a bit harder too. 99% of young women are recognisably female, if you don't have a brain that short cuts when it sees short hair.

 I can think of literally one woman I had trouble recognising as female....and  that was only till she spoke. Female/male markers are pretty clear in the species as a general rule. 

 

 

 

Then I guess where you live there are not a lot of people looking apparently female but calling themselves a guy or vice-versa? There is A LOT of it here, especially in the under-25 crowd (but even amongst middle aged folks). Why else would the college go to the trouble of posting pronouns with the introduction? And there were several people whom I would have picked one gender or another, but because of the gender identity movement, I could be wrong in what they identify as, whatever it appears to my eyes. 

The person in my class was physically, absolutely, unquestionably female, with breasts, middle-aged squishy body type, non-angular jaw/neck/shoulders as for many middle aged females, but clearly wished to be addressed as male. Her/his partner used male pronouns for this person. The name was neutralized as initials, as in “C.J.” It’s a mixed signal, but I defaulted to using the pronouns the partner used, even though this person was evidently genetically female. 

[Tanaqui]

If this bothers her, and her name is gender-marked, then probably the best thing is to give her name at the beginning of each interaction. Easy-peasy. Otherwise, a pretty necklace or some earrings or a barrette might clue some people in.

[Pippen]

I haven't read the other replies, but a cute headband. 

[happi duck]

I still like the "not a sir" advice upthread.  It would only be rude if said in a rude way, imo.

"Excuse me sir there's no more half and half"..."I'm not a sir but I can help!" said while smiling and upbeat.

Bonus: it might help people to stop saying sir or mam when just "excuse me" would do.

[ThisIsTheDay]

9 hours ago, StellaM said:

Who are all these people who have no eyes ?! 

It's easy to confuse small children - there's not all that much difference between one clothed 6 year old and another, especially if they're all in unisex clothing.

But adults ?! I find it weird, that's all. Like people only see the hair length. Long = female, short = male. A young woman with short hair 99.9% of the time looks to me like a young woman with short hair. Even butch women still look like butch women.

Anyway. I'd just correct with a smile and move on. Your dd doesn't need to signify female with earrings, she IS female. 

 

This is my first thought too, that people have no eyes. But these are the same people who will ask you if your baby is a boy or girl even if she's dressed in pink flowers. It seems that people just do not think before saying anything.

And yes, if it didn't bother my dd, I would not suggest earrings. I'm not really sure how helpful that would be anyway. Lots of guys wear earrings that I find feminine.

I was traumatized at age 10 when a stranger mistook me for a boy. I had a shorter, shag style haircut. Since then, I've always been convinced that I have male facial features. I think it's different now, I don't think my son or my daughter would be so bothered.

 

2 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

I"m in a major metro area - we have a.l.l. types of people.   and yeah, for some, it can be hard to tell.

 

 

 

I'm in a small metropolitan area, and it's the same here.

[DawnM]

I find it odd that if people think she is a young teen boy that they call her "sir."  I don't say sir unless it is someone older, what I think would be at least 30s or older.  

[BusyMom5]

I would encourage lip gloss and earrings.  

A few weeks ago we went to a bigger city.  There were THREE people who waited on us at various places that were impossible to tell.  It's being done on purpose.  One person was helping us with shoes.   They had obvious cleavage,  facial hair and a deep voice.  Hair was short and dyes a bright color.  Name tag was neutral.  I had no clue, I kept having to really think about how to phrase things to not use a pronoun.  I think the person was transitioning from one gender to another, but I dont know which direction.  Or maybe this person doesn't want a gender?  

[ktgrok]

Keep n mind these people are there because they are caffeine deprived. They may be less fully aware of subtleties than they would be AFTER they drink the coffee, lol. I know that would be me!

[LucyStoner]

If it bothers her, she may need to tweak how she is dressing or introducing herself.  When I was younger with short hair, I was somewhat often mistaken for a male.  It never really bothered me.  Sometimes I corrected it,  other times it really didn’t matter and I just let it pass without comment.  If the courtesy clerk at the store called me sir, it’s not like the situation required me to correct them when all they really want to do is bag the next person’s order.  

I used to think that people who didn’t know or who inferred a lot based on hair length were blind but I’ve come to see that people process information differently in different contexts.   Having an autistic child with face blindness made me a bit less quick to assume why someone might not know at first or even third glance.  If  my son is ordering at Starbucks, he’s very focused on that task.  He won’t necessarily file away any information about the barista’s gender.  

[KungFuPanda]

1 hour ago, Margaret in CO said:

This post reminds me of what all the new Plebes and Cadets at the service academies are going through this week. They are being yelled at and harassed nonstop, and I guarantee that each one will sometime call a cadre/detailer by the wrong sir or ma'am this summer because their brains are on overload! And then it will amp up; "DO I LOOK LIKE A SIR TO YOU??? Drop and give me 10!"

A kid I’ve known since diapers was just dropped there this week. ::sniff, sniff::

[KungFuPanda]

55 minutes ago, DawnM said:

I find it odd that if people think she is a young teen boy that they call her "sir."  I don't say sir unless it is someone older, what I think would be at least 30s or older.  

I spent my formative years in the military. I ‘sir’ and ‘maam’ all civilians by default. I don’t care if it’s a 6-year-old serving lemonade.

Though it was once considered rude or informal, “Yo” is looking like a better option these days. ?

[Farrar]

If she doesn’t care, I wouldn’t bother. Ds rarely does.

The thing I’ve learned from seeing ds - who has long hair but is obviously masculine otherwise in every way - is that people really rely on just a few indicators to decide gender. 

People do get wrong a lot.

[katilac]

4 hours ago, ThisIsTheDay said:

 

This is my first thought too, that people have no eyes. But these are the same people who will ask you if your baby is a boy or girl even if she's dressed in pink flowers. It seems that people just do not think before saying anything.

 

 

 

My girls wore pink flowers some days, blue shirts with trucks on them other days. Clothing was not much help to people, lol. 

3 hours ago, DawnM said:

I find it odd that if people think she is a young teen boy that they call her "sir."  I don't say sir unless it is someone older, what I think would be at least 30s or older.  

 

I'm in the deep south, it would certainly not be odd here. Also, some people who might not say "thank you, sir" will use "excuse me, sir" to get their attention. 

I wouldn't be annoyed by the boss's answer, what is he supposed to do about it? If she wants to lessen it, I agree with adding some female signifiers like earrings and lip gloss, or introducing herself by name if she has a stereotypically female name. If she'd rather not do that, it's perfectly fine to correct them with a cheery "Not a sir!" 

[Daria]

4 hours ago, happi duck said:

I still like the "not a sir" advice upthread.  It would only be rude if said in a rude way, imo.

"Excuse me sir there's no more half and half"..."I'm not a sir but I can help!" said while smiling and upbeat.

Bonus: it might help people to stop saying sir or mam when just "excuse me" would do.

 

I grew up in the North, with a father from Texas, so I was taught to call adult men "sir".  It surprised me as a kid how many people would correct me.  "Don't call me sir, I'm too young", or "Don't call me sir, I'm not a stranger" (this one confused me, because my father was certainly not a stranger, and yet I called him "sir").  

If I called someone "sir" and they told me they were "not a sir", my first thought would be that they were objecting to my formality, not to the gender.  

If it was someone I wasn't going to see again, like a customer, or if it was clear that it was automatic and they'd figure it out from my voice, then I'd leave it alone.  Otherwise, I'd come up with another correction that was more clear.

[katilac]

5 minutes ago, Daria said:

 

If I called someone "sir" and they told me they were "not a sir", my first thought would be that they were objecting to my formality, not to the gender.  

 

 

 

Good point. Maybe, "I'm a ma'am, not a sir, but you're very welcome!"

[kiwik]

4 hours ago, DawnM said:

I find it odd that if people think she is a young teen boy that they call her "sir."  I don't say sir unless it is someone older, what I think would be at least 30s or older.  

Me too. In similar jobs I might call a customer sir or ma'am but I can imagine no circumstances where they would call me anything but the name on my tag or waitress - probably neither.  Though to be fair you can say "excuse me miss" whereas there isn't an easy male alternative.

[Pen]

Feminine looking earrings, necklace or other jewelry if allowed. 

[Tsuga]

4 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Keep n mind these people are there because they are caffeine deprived. They may be less fully aware of subtleties than they would be AFTER they drink the coffee, lol. I know that would be me!

Yes. And a lot of people actually do have very poor eyesight but resist getting glasses.

She could clip a tiny bow in her hair.

I'm another person who lives in a metro area where at least once a day I will see someone who could be either. Can she wear pins near her name tag? A bunch of feminine pins could help.

And I agree that if she doesn't care it doesn't matter.

[Ravin]

7 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

I would encourage lip gloss and earrings.  

A few weeks ago we went to a bigger city.  There were THREE people who waited on us at various places that were impossible to tell.  It's being done on purpose.  One person was helping us with shoes.   They had obvious cleavage,  facial hair and a deep voice.  Hair was short and dyes a bright color.  Name tag was neutral.  I had no clue, I kept having to really think about how to phrase things to not use a pronoun.  I think the person was transitioning from one gender to another, but I dont know which direction.  Or maybe this person doesn't want a gender?  

The polite thing to do is ask, "what pronouns should I use to refer to you?"

[Lang Syne Boardie]

8 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

I would encourage lip gloss and earrings.  

A few weeks ago we went to a bigger city.  There were THREE people who waited on us at various places that were impossible to tell.  It's being done on purpose.  One person was helping us with shoes.   They had obvious cleavage,  facial hair and a deep voice.  Hair was short and dyes a bright color.  Name tag was neutral.  I had no clue, I kept having to really think about how to phrase things to not use a pronoun.  I think the person was transitioning from one gender to another, but I dont know which direction.  Or maybe this person doesn't want a gender?  

 

The thing I don't understand is why you would need male or female pronouns for someone who is waiting on you? Since you are talking TO them, not ABOUT them, you only need pronouns such as "you." You don't need "him" or "her." Even if you are talking about them, you can get around it effortlessly. 

(from the dressing room) "Excuse me, is anyone out there?" When they appear: "Hi, could you please see if you have this blouse in a small?"

(at the restaurant) "Yes, we'd like the special, could you please make sure the steak is medium well."

(at the bowling alley, if there are multiple people desperate to wait upon you and you have to explain that you are already being helped) "Thank you, your co-worker already went to check if the lane is clear, and we've all got our shoes."

OR

You could go through life asking people their names, and then address them by their names, and refer to them by their name.

"Dax, could you get me some more coffee, please?"

"Is someone already waiting on you?" "Yes, thanks, Dax went to get our coffee."

"Are you the manager? I want to tell you how much we appreciate Dax, who always gets our order right and always has a great attitude."

(Edit: I understand it's polite and normal to ask. I'm just saying that "someone, anyone, no one, you, and they", and using people's names or job titles, have been available options as long as we've had the English language.)

[Pen]

28 minutes ago, Ravin said:

The polite thing to do is ask, "what pronouns should I use to refer to you?"

 

Really? I’ve never asked a barista or waiter or cashiers or customer service rep that so far as I can recall. I would feel like I was being intrusive or just weird  .  

OTOH the dd could say, “I m female “ or maybe “I’m a she” if she wanted to. It would still seem odd to me though if a barista said that if I’d not  first made a mistake in gender attribution. 

I’d prefer something that gave more indication 

Maybe a necklace with a label on it to indicate gender, or symbol that does. The Venus looking symbol...

Edited July 5, 2018 by Pen
Correction of a misleading autocorrect