Curious: Atheist / Agnostic

[BlsdMama]

Correct me if I’m wrong…

Atheist: There is no God.

 Agnostic: Maybe there is and maybe not, I don’t know.

 I’ve generally categorized atheism as a religion because it states a certainty of belief a follower adhere to. I don’t know if this is an offensive statement so I apologize if it is. 

As a Christian, I can’t help but see the stamp of intelligent design over so much of the natural world.  I’m generally curious to hear why someone chooses atheism over agnosticism. 

[Lady Florida.]

33 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

 I’ve generally categorized atheism as a religion because it states a certainty of belief a follower adhere to. I don’t know if this is an offensive statement so I apologize if it is. 

It's not offensive but simply incorrect. There's a popular saying (maybe it's only well known to atheists?) - Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color or not collecting stamps is a hobby.

To be clear, atheism doesn't say there is no god. It's a rejection of the assertion that gods exist. It sounds like the same thing but the distinction matters. Surely there are atheists who will say there is no god, but atheism itself is not a denial or disbelief. It's merely a lack of belief. 

It's not a belief system. There's nothing to "follow". Atheists are not a group like various religious groups. The ONLY thing atheists have in common is the lack of belief in deities. 

I won't try to speak for agnostics because I never held that position. I'll let an agnostic answer that part. 

FWIW I don't like being defined by lack of belief in a deity. I call myself an atheist because the society I live in measures me by my religious beliefs or lack thereof. In my everyday life atheism holds no real place. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Lady Florida.

[KSera]

8 minutes ago, Lady Florida. said:

It's not offensive but simply incorrect. There's a popular saying (maybe it's only well known to atheists?) - Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color or not collecting stamps is a hobby.

I’m familiar with that saying, but I think it applies to some atheists— probably the majority—but not all. I think there is a sub group of atheists who hold it as a key part of their identity and participate in atheist organizations and are specifically outspoken and vociferous that there is no God, and I think for that set, it is akin to a religious belief. For people who simply don’t believe and go on about their life, I don’t think it makes sense at all to call that a religion. For people who devote time and energy to their belief in atheism, I think maybe it does. 

[Lady Florida.]

4 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’m familiar with that saying, but I think it applies to some atheists— probably the majority—but not all. I think there is a sub group of atheists who hold it as a key part of their identity and participate in atheist organizations and are specifically outspoken and vociferous that there is no God, and I think for that set, it is akin to a religious belief. For people who simply don’t believe and go on about their life, I don’t think it makes sense at all to call that a religion. For people who devote time and energy to their belief in atheism, I think maybe it does. 

There are people who hold their position in various organizations as part of their identity. They participate in those organizations and even hold offices in them. We don't call being part of the Elks Club or Jaycees or Veterans of Foreign wars or whatever a religion. Atheism is NOT a religion, even if a person is active in atheist organizations, of which there are far fewer than there are religious organizations. They don't meet regularly and if they happen to miss any meetings there's no consequences. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Lady Florida.

[sweet2ndchance]

I identified as agnostic when I was a young adult. For me, it had to do with not wanting to step on toes or burn bridges by identifying as atheist. As I've gotten older, I've realized that anyone who would shun me for my non-belief wasn't really someone I wanted to have a relationship with anyways. So I "came out" as atheist.

I know some people truly are agnostic and maybe they can give more insight into that line of belief but for me and some other people I know it was just a more socially acceptable term in our friend circles than atheist.

[livetoread]

26 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’m familiar with that saying, but I think it applies to some atheists— probably the majority—but not all. I think there is a sub group of atheists who hold it as a key part of their identity and participate in atheist organizations and are specifically outspoken and vociferous that there is no God, and I think for that set, it is akin to a religious belief. For people who simply don’t believe and go on about their life, I don’t think it makes sense at all to call that a religion. For people who devote time and energy to their belief in atheism, I think maybe it does. 

I still wouldn't liken it to a religion. I would see it more as activism. 

[Kassia]

11 minutes ago, sweet2ndchance said:

 

I know some people truly are agnostic and maybe they can give more insight into that line of belief but for me and some other people I know it was just a more socially acceptable term in our friend circles than atheist.

I consider myself agnostic and the reason is because I feel like I don't know if there's a God or not and I never will know, so why bother trying to figure it out?  Why waste the emotional/mental energy if I don't have the faith (and I respect people who do)  and will never know the answer?  

Hope that makes sense.

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

Correct me if I’m wrong…

Atheist: There is no God.

 Agnostic: Maybe there is and maybe not, I don’t know.

 I’ve generally categorized atheism as a religion because it states a certainty of belief a follower adhere to. I don’t know if this is an offensive statement so I apologize if it is. 

As a Christian, I can’t help but see the stamp of intelligent design over so much of the natural world.  I’m generally curious to hear why someone chooses atheism over agnosticism. 

I call myself an atheist, but I'm actually borderline.  I don't think I can say for absolutely definite that there is no god, but I'm so close to sure - based on what I  see around me - that atheist is closer to it than agnostic. I don't have a spiritual bone on my body.

I wouldn't deny incontrovertible evidence.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Laura Corin

[Pawz4me]

I've never heard of atheism called a religion. That seems weird and wrong to me, but since it's new to me it's not something I've thought about.

My DH calls himself an atheist. He believes the idea of a creator god is absurd. To him Biblical stories are no different from Greek or Roman mythology.

I think I mostly identify as agnostic because there's a little tiny part of me that wants to hope there could be some sort of Creator who somehow cares for humanity, even though it's impossible to see how that could be. But I feel comfortable with the "I don't know" label.

[livetoread]

I do think the terminology is fluid and often confusing. I consider myself an atheist going by the literal meaning of the term. I lack belief in any gods. By that literal definition, anyone who doesn't believe there is a god is also atheist which would include those who don't know one way or the other. I really don't *know* one way or the other, but I think it unlikely - therefore I lack belief.

I don't generally use the term though because it makes people anxious and conjures up more strident imagery that doesn't fit me. I just say nonbeliever which also covers it and seems more palatable to others.

ETA I also would be happy if I found out someday there was some deity who was loving and good and who had the power to do away with suffering and actually did. That would be awesome. I'd have questions, lol, but I'm not against that sort of deity. I just don't believe one exists.

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by livetoread

[Danae]

Atheism isn’t a religion anymore than theism is a religion.  They are both positions on one specific question about the nature of reality.  It’s possible to have a religion whose tenets are atheistic, just as it’s possible to have a religion whose tenets are theistic, but you need more than a position on that one question to make a religion

[Lady Florida.]

2 minutes ago, livetoread said:

 

I don't generally use the term though because it makes people anxious and conjures up more strident imagery that doesn't fit me. I just say nonbeliever which also covers it and seems more palatable to others.

Depending on who I'm speaking to I'll either use atheist, nonbeliever or simply say I'm not religious. 

[Carrie12345]

The only assumption I get offended by is that I can’t be a good person. Whatever else anyone might assume doesn’t bother me.

I believe in the scientific method, the powers of nature, and the interdependence of all living things. But no deities. We reap as a whole what we sow as a whole, here. No divine threats or rewards, just natural consequences. 

[kokotg]

My understanding has always been that atheist=lack of belief in a deity and agnostic means you think it's impossible to know whether god exists or not. It seems to me that atheism could encompass a wide range of things; you can either firmly believe there is no god or just say that you don't personally believe in any particular god or gods but don't take a position on whether god/s exist. Whereas strictly speaking agnosticism isn't just saying that YOU don't believe in a deity but taking the position that whether deities exist is impossible for humans to know. I.e. you could feel strongly that people who insist there's definitely no god are as wrong as people who insist there is. But it seems like people generally use atheist to mean someone who believes there is no god and agnostic for people who aren't sure one way or the other.

[Lady Florida.]

From the American Atheists website: https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.

Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”

[Lady Florida.]

Also -

Despite the fact that atheism is not a religion, atheism is protected by many of the same Constitutional rights that protect religion. That, however, does not mean that atheism is itself a religion, only that our sincerely held (lack of) beliefs are protected in the same way as the religious beliefs of others. Similarly, many “interfaith” groups will include atheists. This, again, does not mean that atheism is a religious belief.

[gardenmom5]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

Correct me if I’m wrong…

Atheist: There is no God.

 Agnostic: Maybe there is and maybe not, I don’t know.

 I’ve generally categorized atheism as a religion because it states a certainty of belief a follower adhere to. I don’t know if this is an offensive statement so I apologize if it is. 

As a Christian, I can’t help but see the stamp of intelligent design over so much of the natural world.  I’m generally curious to hear why someone chooses atheism over agnosticism. 

I used to joke my mother couldn't decide if she was an agnostic or not. ;p.

there were times I think she wanted there to not be a God because she didn't want to be accountable for some of her (very poor) choices.  Other times, I think she wished there was - but couldn't quite bring herself to believe.
I think it was hard for her because she grew up in a home that held to: god of death, hell, fire, brimestone, and destruction; where there was no such thing as forgiveness.  ever. (no matter how much you might regret something). 

[gardenmom5]

To those posting about atheism = lack of belief in God.  sure, don't have a problem with that.  . . . however  . . 

 

I've seen some proclaimed atheists who go about in a very in your face manner, practically foaming at the mouth, preaching there is no god.  For them - don't tell me it's not their religion.  They're absolutely not rational.  (quite the opposite of what the majority of atheists proclaim to be.)

Edited September 5, 2022 by gardenmom5

[EKS]

I wouldn't classify atheism as a religion.  I would classify it as an unscientific belief, just as a belief that there is a god is an unscientific belief.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

To those posting about atheism = lack of belief in God.  sure, don't have a problem with that.  . . . however  . . 

 

I've seen some proclaimed atheists who go about in a very in your face manner, practically foaming at the mouth, preaching there is no god.  For them - don't tell me it's not a religion.  They're not rational.

In my observation, these are more often than not people who had extremely religious upbringing. So part of their intensity over the subject is informed by what they need to break free from. 
 

I remember in my twenties, I had a friend who argued with me very intensely *in favor* of the Bible being the inerrant, complete, inspired Word of God. But twenty years later, he was an a obnoxious, intense atheist. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Frances]

I don’t generally attach either of the labels to myself. If someone were to ask, I might say I was raised Catholic but don’t believe anymore or that I don’t go to church or that I’m not religious.

If pressed, I guess I would say I’m more agnostic, as I’m not sure whether or not there is a God. I don’t really spend time thinking about it or dwelling on it though. The one thing these boards have definitely helped me be absolutely sure of over the years though is if God does exist, there is most definitely not one true and only way to God or salvation or heaven or whatever the ultimate reward is for those whose religion has one. I remembered being very baffled by this idea when I met my first fundamentalist, evangelical Christian in college. And learning so much more about people’s beliefs of all types from this board, has only made me more sure than ever that it is not true.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Frances

[Corraleno]

I said I was agnostic for a few years as a teen, during a period when I felt that the beliefs I was raised with made no sense and I could no longer follow them, but I wasn't sure yet where my questioning would lead. So I started reading more about other religions, both contemporary and historical, and came to the conclusion that there was really no difference between the religion I was raised in and other religions that people all over the world had believed for millennia: each set of beliefs fulfills specific needs within that culture, including designating an in-group and out-group and justifying judgement and exclusion (or worse) of the out group; nearly all serve to maintain the political status quo by reinforcing the ruling elite's right to power and/or promising rewards in the next life to the underclass; and each group is convinced that their own beliefs are The Truth. The idea that the only group that got it right was a small group of Bronze Age goatherds in the Middle East, and billions of other people just made stuff up (and could potentially spend eternity being tortured for it) seemed absurd to me.

Where others see the unmistakable hand of "intelligent design," I see the exact opposite — a vast universe full of random events that is so far beyond the limited Bronze Age worldview that informed the beliefs I was raised in. My mother's conversion to a very legalistic patriarchal church that required belief in a 6000 year old earth just confirmed my opinion of religion, and my teenage readings about religion ultimately led me to both atheism and a major in anthropology.

As others have said, not believing in deities is not a religion any more than not believing in Santa Claus is a religion. Even being an anti-theist activist is not a religion any more than being an anti-capitalist activist is. By definition, a Christian doesn't believe in Hindu deities, but "not believing in Hindu deities" isn't a religion in itself. If "not believing in Hindu deities" isn't a religion, then why would "not believing in Hindu, Christian, or any other deities" be a religion? Ricky Gervais once said something about the difference between Christians and atheists is that Christians just disbelieve one less religion than atheists do.

If I'm asked, I usually just say I'm not religious, because to some people (including members of my extended family) atheists are the enemy and you might as well be saying that you're a baby-eating devil worshipper. My kids have been told point blank by Christians that they were going to burn in hell for not believing in God, so they also usually just say they aren't religious.

[Frances]

2 minutes ago, Quill said:

In my observation, these are more often than not people who had extremely religious upbringing. So part of their intensity over the subject is informed by what they need to break free from. 
 

I remember in my twenties, I had a friend who argued with me very intensely *in favor* of the Bible being the inerrant, complete, inspired Word of God. But twenty years later, he was an a obnoxious, intense atheist. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think it’s often similar to converts to a religion or those not raised in a religion that they then purposefully chose as an adult. In my experience, converts, especially new converts, are often much more zealous in their beliefs and practices.

[Guest]

I relate to what @sweet2ndchance said. I have mostly said (and really just mostly to myself) that I am now basically agnostic. However, I think atheist is closer to the truth. It’s just that that is *such* an unpopular identity to the vast majority of my circle, and I’m not particularly interested in defending my lack of belief, so if pressed at all, I will say agnostic. 
 

Pretty much the only part of me that still hopes for a deity is the part of me that misses my baby who died. It may not be fully possible for me to accept that there is no Heaven or a place where my Lydia could continue to exist. I may not ever be able to fully let go of that hope. 

[Lady Florida.]

25 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

To those posting about atheism = lack of belief in God.  sure, don't have a problem with that.  . . . however  . . 

 

I've seen some proclaimed atheists who go about in a very in your face manner, practically foaming at the mouth, preaching there is no god.  For them - don't tell me it's not their religion.  They're absolutely not rational.  (quite the opposite of what the majority of atheists proclaim to be.)

Obnoxious behavior is not a religion. Activism is not a religion. Extremism is not a religion. Irrational behavior or speech is not a religion. In your face rudeness is not a religion. These people you are talking about aren't nice but atheism is still not a religion.

[KeriJ]

23 minutes ago, Quill said:

In my observation, these are more often than not people who had extremely religious upbringing. So part of their intensity over the subject is informed by what they need to break free from. 
 

I remember in my twenties, I had a friend who argued with me very intensely *in favor* of the Bible being the inerrant, complete, inspired Word of God. But twenty years later, he was an a obnoxious, intense atheist. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Or could it instead be just a type of personality?

[Pawz4me]

Expanding a little on my first comment - I think if labels were only based on belief or not in the God of the protestant Bible, or at least in the way He and it are most commonly explained and interpreted, then I'd easily call myself an atheist. There are too many mental contortions and too much cognitive dissonance required to make that make sense. If there's any small kernel of truth there I figure men must have really and truly mucked up the core message. But I can't quite bring myself to categorically rule out the possibility that some sort of Creator or Force or something that could be called "God" exists. So . . agnostic.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, KeriJ said:

Or could it instead be just a type of personality?

Sure, could be. But in one or two cases, they mellowed out after a while. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Quill
Typo

[Laura Corin]

48 minutes ago, gardenmom5 said:

To those posting about atheism = lack of belief in God.  sure, don't have a problem with that.  . . . however  . . 

 

I've seen some proclaimed atheists who go about in a very in your face manner, practically foaming at the mouth, preaching there is no god.  For them - don't tell me it's not their religion.  They're absolutely not rational.  (quite the opposite of what the majority of atheists proclaim to be.)

I call those people anti-theists.

[sweet2ndchance]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

The only assumption I get offended by is that I can’t be a good person.

OMG, yes, this is infuriating at times! I've actually had people ask me how I know right from wrong if I don't believe in their god...

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

The only assumption I get offended by is that I can’t be a good person. Whatever else anyone might assume doesn’t bother me.

I believe in the scientific method, the powers of nature, and the interdependence of all living things. But no deities. We reap as a whole what we sow as a whole, here. No divine threats or rewards, just natural consequences. 

 

12 minutes ago, sweet2ndchance said:

OMG, yes, this is infuriating at times! I've actually had people ask me how I know right from wrong if I don't believe in their god...

 

I love Penn Jillette's take on this:  "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine."

[KSera]

1 hour ago, Danae said:

Atheism isn’t a religion anymore than theism is a religion.  They are both positions on one specific question about the nature of reality.  It’s possible to have a religion whose tenets are atheistic, just as it’s possible to have a religion whose tenets are theistic, but you need more than a position on that one question to make a religion

These have been good replies.  I’m in agreement after reading them that there are better ways to classify even vehement, organized atheists other than as a religion. 

1 hour ago, Lady Florida. said:

From the American Atheists website: https://www.atheists.org/activism/resources/about-atheism/

Atheism is one thing: A lack of belief in gods.

Atheism is not an affirmative belief that there is no god nor does it answer any other question about what a person believes. It is simply a rejection of the assertion that there are gods. Atheism is too often defined incorrectly as a belief system. To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

Older dictionaries define atheism as “a belief that there is no God.” Clearly, theistic influence taints these definitions. The fact that dictionaries define Atheism as “there is no God” betrays the (mono)theistic influence. Without the (mono)theistic influence, the definition would at least read “there are no gods.”

This is interesting, because it isn’t the impression I’ve gotten from the most intense atheists I’ve known. Most atheists I know (which are most people I am friends with) are as above, but the ones that I might have classified as having a religious-type atheism have a fervent belief that there is definitely no God or Gods and they are certain they know that. That’s where it has bordered on a religion to me,  because believing you absolutely know or absolutely don’t know about the existence of deities are both things that rely on a belief system. There’s no way to prove either one of them (cueing someone to say there’s no way to prove unicorns don’t exist either 😉. I have an answer for why that’s different logic, but hopefully we don’t have to get into it.)

 

19 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

I call those people anti-theists.

That’s a good way to differentiate. 

[bibiche]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

The only assumption I get offended by is that I can’t be a good person. Whatever else anyone might assume doesn’t bother me.

Ah, maybe you just need a different hairstyle. Ever since I changed mine so it covers my atheist horns, not a single person has assumed I’m evil. 😈 

[Lori D.]

ATHEIST
definition = one who holds/practices/believes there is no god/gods
word origin = a-theos-ist  
a- = not (Greek; prefix)
theos = god (Greek; here a shortened form is used in atheist)
-ist = one who does/makes; also indicates adherence to a specific doctrine or custom (French suffix)

AGNOSTIC
definition = one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or nonexistence of god/gods
word origin = a-gnosis-tic
a- = not (Greek; prefix)
gnosis = knowledge of spiritual mysteries (Greek; here a shortened form is used in agnostic)
-tic = noun-forming suffix, here indicating a person who adheres to the root noun (from Greek suffix -ikos)

 

"How Agnostic Differs From Atheist
Many people are interested in distinguishing between the words agnostic and atheist. The difference is quite simple: atheist refers to someone who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods, and agnostic refers to someone who doesn’t know whether there is a god, or even if such a thing is knowable. This distinction can be troublesome to remember, but examining the origins of the two words can help.

Agnostic first appeared in 1869, (possibly coined by the English biologist Thomas Henry Huxley), and was formed from the Greek agnōstos (meaning "unknown, unknowable"). Atheist came to English from the French athéisme. Although both words share a prefix (which is probably the source of much of the confusion) the main body of each word is quite different. Agnostic shares part of its history with words such as prognosticate and prognosis, words which have something to do with knowledge or knowing something. Atheist shares roots with words such as theology and theism, which generally have something to do with God." -- Merriam-Webster online

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Lori D.

[Wheres Toto]

46 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Expanding a little on my first comment - I think if labels were only based on belief or not in the God of the protestant Bible, or at least in the way He and it are most commonly explained and interpreted, then I'd easily call myself an atheist. There are too many mental contortions and too much cognitive dissonance required to make that make sense. If there's any small kernel of truth there I figure men must have really and truly mucked up the core message. But I can't quite bring myself to categorically rule out the possibility that some sort of Creator or Force or something that could be called "God" exists. So . . agnostic.

This is kind of where I fall.  When I look around at the world I do think there may have been a Force/guiding hand/whatever involved.  But I don't believe at all in the current Christian idea of God.  

[HomeAgain]

3 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

As a Christian, I can’t help but see the stamp of intelligent design over so much of the natural world.  I’m generally curious to hear why someone chooses atheism over agnosticism. 

I just wanted to address this.

You see intelligent design because that is part of your faith and the conditions of your faith.  I have one child who is agnostic and one who does not have the ability to believe in any deity.  They do not see intelligent design.  They see a mathematically balancing world, born of cause and effect over time.

My atheist didn't choose atheism.  He is like a computer, and anything that doesn't have the capacity to be fact based is not going to be seen as such in his mind. While stories of religion fascinate him, he has no ability to believe in them.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

In my observation, these are more often than not people who had extremely religious upbringing. So part of their intensity over the subject is informed by what they need to break free from. 
 

I remember in my twenties, I had a friend who argued with me very intensely *in favor* of the Bible being the inerrant, complete, inspired Word of God. But twenty years later, he was an a obnoxious, intense atheist. 🤷🏻‍♀️

One of my ex boyfriends(who is now a trans woman so I use “she”) is like this.  She grew up in a very fervently religious home and her mother died very young after a painful illness.  Then dad sent her to a Christian college and that is where she became fervently atheist.  
I would call it a religion with her, if not in general. Mostly because every time I post something on FB about my faith or Christianity she very much sends me a message or leaves a comment either trying to convert me or telling me only stupid people believe in God. Atheism is a core value of her personal beliefs.

I don’t try to convert anyone and have no interest in what others believe for the most part, so it annoys me that she does this.

[Carrie12345]

3 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

 I’m generally curious to hear why someone chooses atheism over agnosticism. 

I didn’t choose it. I didn’t choose to hate broccoli, love water, grieve loss, or adore my children. I didn’t choose what I have knacks/talents/interests for, the people I’m drawn to, or my height. These things just are.

I DID religion shop for a very short period, but then accepted what was always in my heart. 

[lewelma]

There is a subset of agnostics that I know that are in the 'I don't care' group rather than the 'I don't know' group. Basically, the issue of gods is irrelevant, so no decision has been made or needs to be made. They simply don't find it a worthy question to dwell on.

[Arcadia]

3 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

Correct me if I’m wrong…

Atheist: There is no God.

 Agnostic: Maybe there is and maybe not, I don’t know.

That is how my husband interpreted it so he thinks he fall under atheist category. For me and other agnostic people I know of, we believe that it is possible for our departed ancestors to be guardian spirits and thus in the existence of spirits. 

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, Lady Florida. said:

It's not offensive but simply incorrect. There's a popular saying (maybe it's only well known to atheists?) - Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color or not collecting stamps is a hobby.

To be clear, atheism doesn't say there is no god. It's a rejection of the assertion that gods exist. It sounds like the same thing but the distinction matters. Surely there are atheists who will say there is no god, but atheism itself is not a denial or disbelief. It's merely a lack of belief. 

It's not a belief system. There's nothing to "follow". Atheists are not a group like various religious groups. The ONLY thing atheists have in common is the lack of belief in deities. 

I won't try to speak for agnostics because I never held that position. I'll let an agnostic answer that part. 

FWIW I don't like being defined by lack of belief in a deity. I call myself an atheist because the society I live in measures me by my religious beliefs or lack thereof. In my everyday life atheism holds no real place. 

Excellent explanation!

It does get old living in a culture that insists on pegging everyone into a belief system.

 

[Corraleno]

I think people are conflating two different meanings of the term "religion" — the traditional sense of a set of shared (and generally institutionalized) beliefs and practices relating to the  interaction between human beings and some sort of supernatural power, and a more colloquial sense that equates zealotry about any subject to "religious fervor" and therefore sees the zealotry as equivalent to religion. In the first sense, not believing in supernatural powers cannot, by definition, be a "religion," and there is also no set of shared practices that goes along with not believing in something. When people say that atheism, or at least anti-theism, is a "religion," I think what they mean is that some anti-theists push their beliefs with the same zeal and fervor that some religious people do.

That still doesn't make anti-theism a religion, though, because there are lots of beliefs that people can be very zealous about pushing onto others that are not religions. Fervent racism isn't a religion, although people have used religion to justify it. Fervent belief in, and activism on behalf of, animal rights doesn't make belief in animal rights into a religion, because there is no shared set of practices relating to interaction with a supernatural power.

Most Americans "don't believe" in elves or unicorns or dragons or a race of giant cyclops, even though there are ancient writings attesting to their existence. For most atheists, not believing in deities is no different than not believing in elves or anything else for which there is no scientific evidence. For me, it takes no greater leap of faith to not believe in a Christian God than it takes to not believe in Zeus, Odin, Tezcatlipoca, Shango, Horus, Chang Xi, or a nature spirit in the maple tree in my backyard. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Corraleno

[Farrar]

I think one thing that's confusing about the terms atheism and agnosticism is that they seem like they're on some sort of linear spectrum. As if there's a scale that goes from theist to agnostic to atheist. But as I see it, they just refer to two different things. Atheists don't believe in any god. Agnostics believe it's not a knowable or answerable question. You can consider yourself both.

As for the anti-theists... I think this sense of confusion about people treating things that aren't religions as their "religion" is something that's growing in the US right now. More and more people aren't church members or part of any organized religion, but do align themselves along ideological lines in various ways. But just because people are doing that doesn't mean they're actually religions.

[Tanaqui]

4 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

 I’ve generally categorized atheism as a religion because it states a certainty of belief a follower adhere to. I don’t know if this is an offensive statement so I apologize if it is.

 

By that logic, not believing in ghosts is a belief system, as is not believing in witches or not believing in vampires.

Quote

As a Christian, I can’t help but see the stamp of intelligent design over so much of the natural world.

Honestly, it's a bit of a relief to me to know that no intelligence set out to make smallpox, or the guinea worm, or rabies, or river blindness, or Tay-Sachs, or... okay, honestly, I'm just listing horrific diseases I happen to know about.

I'm also glad to know that no intelligence created golden eagles specifically so they'd lay three eggs and the third would either be murdered by its siblings or eaten by them. That same non-intelligence didn't create pigeons so they'd lay twice as many eggs as they intend to care for, and then leave the others to die, and... actually, I think my point is well and truly made.

If there is an intelligent designer, that designer must be unspeakably cruel.

Happily, nothing about reality requires a designer. No, I can take comfort in the fact that nature is not cruel, it's simply arbitrary.

[Katy]

I think many of the atheists who most interact with Christians tend to be those who are fervent about it, even antagonising, similar to the way new convert Christians can be towards those who don’t immediately convert to the same church they did. IME most of these atheists were subjected to extreme religious abuse as children and it isn’t a matter of not believing in any gods. It’s a matter of having a personal conviction to attack religion as a harmful institution. It’s black and white moralistic thinking that is similar to strict veganism. Even Penn Jilette, who is usually vegan since his weight loss, won’t give himself that label because he said it implies a religious or moral belief about animal rights that he doesn’t subscribe to. So he says plant based or nutritarian. 
 

IME most atheists are nothing like that vocal minority of anti-religion ones. 

[Melissa Louise]

Choose is a funny word. 

I didn't choose to be atheist - I just couldn't find a way to believe in God/s. Being an atheist is not a religion

Equally, I didn't choose to shift to an agnostic stance. It just happened, via a changed attitude towards maths. I couldn't explicate that relationship; my best attempt is that maths allowed the concept of a Divine Universal Order to exist for me as a potential, yet unknowable mystery. 

For me now, God/s are Schrodinger's God/s. The potential for their existence is balanced with the potential for their non-existence. It's a sort of settled ambivalence. Tension of the opposites. 

But no, none of it chosen (at least not consciously) and none of it a religion. 

[Melissa Louise]

Re anti-theists 

I see them as doing a necessary service in a world that (still!) privileges religious faith. 

It's political, not religious.

 

[stephanier.1765]

3 hours ago, sweet2ndchance said:

OMG, yes, this is infuriating at times! I've actually had people ask me how I know right from wrong if I don't believe in their god...

Me too! I asked them, "So you're telling me that the only reason you behave rightly is because of what the Bible tells you?" That is so strange to me.

[Faith-manor]

4 minutes ago, stephanier.1765 said:

Me too! I asked them, "So you're telling me that the only reason you behave rightly is because of what the Bible tells you?" That is so strange to me.

Agreed. 

[Scarlett]

3 hours ago, Corraleno said:

 

 

I love Penn Jillette's take on this:  "The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine."

Yes this line of thinking is bizarre to me.  I think it speaks to a punitive upraising. My faith does not teach or believe in a burning hell but once when I was a kid a neighbor was astounded my mom did ‘good things’ despite not believing in a burning hell as punishment.