How dirty is unsanitary?

[Soror]

With so many thinking about spring cleaning, this seems a good time to pose this question.

We work in 3 counties- one of those counties is very strict on everything, including cleanliness standards. In my home county, the bar for cleanliness is pretty low. 

Now, only one of the houses I've seen would be what I would call clean but I don't think any have been so unsanitary I think it was better to take their kids.

It seems by the standards of the strict county at least 1/3rd of the hs Moms I know would not have houses clean enough. 

What says the hive? 

 

 

 

[fairfarmhand]

hmmm...

Light dust, clutter, a few sticky spots on the floor some hair in the bathroom-- acceptable. Basically if it looks like someone cleans every now and then, I'd say ok, as long as there isn't dangerous things lying about and spoiled food in the cupboards and refrigerator. 

Filth, like feces, trash overflowing where it looks like it's been weeks since it's been emptied, dishes that haven;t been addressed for weeks, spoiled food, dangerous things left around, that's not ok.

[Rosie_0801]

If it is making inhabitants ill, that is unsanitary.

However, people can have allergies to perfectly ordinary things. We wouldn't call someone unsanitary for having dust in a house where people are allergic to dust. Dust is inevitable. We can't blame people for experiencing the inevitable.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

I’ve hotlined homes with animal feces all over the floors, refrigerators filled with moldly food, months of garbage on the floor or in bags, broken toilets so people are urinating into buckets and soda bottles, roaches all over the place.

My standards are probably pretty low. If there’s no excrement or bugs, I don’t worry about it.

[prairiewindmomma]

It’s pretty common for standards to vary by county, in those circles. There were published guidelines everyone had to follow, but some counties viewed circumstances as poverty and stress—let’s give access to services and equipment banks versus a punitive model.
 

The county I worked in the most wanted:

trash contained to a closed container

dishes done

no rotting food in fridge/ on countertops/on dirty dishes/etc.

pet and human waste properly dealt with

cleanish sheets on bed

stuff relatively picked up—kid toys on floor in active play ok

bathrooms clean—old stains from hard mineral water ok, but not dirty, iykwim 

 

Rules were much higher for foster families with re: to outlet covers, child stairway barriers, locked cabinet for meds, etc. than for families who were being evaluated and having safety plans done.

Those standards seem pretty basic, but I would agree that about 1/3 of the homeschool moms I have met couldn’t meet those on a random day. Putting on my flameproof suit: I do think a significant portion of struggling families self select out of the public school model system because of mental health issues and there is some correlation between clinical depression and anxiety and housekeeping functionality. I also think poverty factors in here too. The types of families we find here on the boards tend to be higher functioning, higher income families. We are people who are seeking to educate well. Probably 1/3 of the homeschoolers in my area are not-schoolers. I won’t call them unschoolers because unschooling as a philosophy isn’t neglect. Not schooling is withdrawing your kids from school so you don’t have truancy charges against you and failing to educate your kids in the basics.

[Katy]

I don’t know the answer is particularly clear. With the exception of the first 16 months of the pandemic I clean and declutter but I’m sure I don’t meet the standards of my aunt or mother. I don’t think it’s possible to have kids and pets and this much stuff and this big of a house and be that clean without twice a week help, with the kids if not the house. At least not with our current (cold) location and with kids with special needs.

I used bleach based cleansers in the kitchen and bathrooms and I run the little kids clothes through the deep clean & sanitize cycles when they have accidents. I have wool rugs. I dust and vacuum but I don’t care to be anal enough to make it perfect almost ever. 

[prairiewindmomma]

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I’ve hotlined homes with animal feces all over the floors, refrigerators filled with moldly food, months of garbage on the floor or in bags, broken toilets so people are urinating into buckets and soda bottles, roaches all over the place.

My standards are probably pretty low. If there’s no excrement or bugs, I don’t worry about it.

I see we have been in similar homes. If you aren’t gagging or wearing a N95 and booties, it’s not the worst of the worst.

[Mrs Tiggywinkle Again]

Some of the most loving homes I have visited were the most cluttered.  And some of the most unhealthy homes were sparkling clean and neat.

 

[Katy]

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

Some of the most loving homes I have visited were the most cluttered.  And some of the most unhealthy homes were sparkling clean and neat.

 

My favorite aunt was talking about how she & another family member about her age were bonding over their agony at church one night. Neither of their homes were perfectly clean before they left the house, and if the died before they got home to fix it people would bring food over to their husbands and see they left the house with a pile of mail or a sink of dishes. Neither are overly OCD, and I’ve never seen either (relatively small) house anyway other than perfectly clean. They’re in Florida and they even get the pollen off their porches twice a day. But I can’t imagine being that obsessed about any of it. I suppose it’s all relative. I’ve had parents of kids staying with us and neighbors say they don’t know how my house is always so clean. I think it’s a disaster most of the time. 
 

I remember a sociology class in college that spoke of cleaning as a class thing. The closer to middle class you are the more you care about clean as a virtue. 

[BusyMom5]

I have certain standards for my own house, and they have went through stages over the years,  but as far as unsanitary or dangerous-

1.  Feces- no feces anywhere children can get to- human or animal.  Dirty diapers should be disposed of before maggots or bugs 🤮 

2. Old food, drink, or dirty dishes- no food with mold growing on it should be out where children can get it.  No spoiled drinks, but empty cups okay.  Check sippy cups for fermented juice or soured milk. Dirty dishes here or there,  probably okay, but not days worth of dishes.  If they have a working dishwasher,  probably less lenient, but I would be understanding if they have several littles and no dishwasher  (been there, done that, its hard)

3. Safety- no broken glass, knives or sharp utensils anywhere at all.  No cord blinds. No growling dogs or animals that might pose a threat. Cleaning supplies and alcoholic drinks locked up. I'd prefer locks on doors with stairs and outlet covers, but would offer free ones if possible.  

4. Controlled Substances, alcohol, MJ- none of these things out where a child could reach them.  If I smell these items on the client, they shouldn't be using while caring for an infant or toddler especially.  

5. Bathrooms- this is the hardest one because it can be hard to tell if it's a matter of not cleaning, or if previous renters just ruined the subfloor (urine under the toilet will not stop stinking and you have to pull the toilet then properly clean it- even urine under the lid can be hard to get). Leaky toilet, trap not sealed- a lot of older houses have plumbing issues. Hard water stains may look like you didn't clean the tub.  Mold and mildew can be hard to control,  too.  I would not want any baby toys with mold on them, and must have safe bathing items as determined by age.  I would want to see each child has toothbrush, hand soap,  shampoo, and if needed period stuff and deodorant. 

6.  Kitchen- no food out that should be refrigerated.  No cockroaches, but I might ignore ants- it can be really hard to get rid of bugs.  If they had food out plus bugs- yuck!  That is their fault- I consider it unsanitary,  but not sure I'd want to pull kids for just that reason.  There are lots of families who do not see the problem with a few roaches 🪳 

7.  General- a few changes of clothes in the floor would be okay.  Toys kids are playing with out is okay. Clothes that have been in the floor for months- not okay.  Every toy avaliable out, so that its a tripping hazard or dangerous- not okay.  

I would ignore floors that needed vacuuming if they do not have a vacuum.  I would ignore stains on carpet and floors.  I would try to decide if structural issues with the house were at play when considering smells. 

Social workers have such a hard job.  There is an intersection with poverty,  mental illness, and cleanliness.  If one isn't taught to clean, they will not automatically know how to do it.  If they lack the focus or organizational skills, it can be really hard. Having multiple young children is exhausting,  so I'd like to give grace wherevI can.  All that said,  children do not deserve to grow up in an unsafe home with feces, rotting food, bugs, and filth.  

[Momof4sweetkids]

Aside from the dishes and feces others have mentioned, if rodents are an issue the issue is being addressed. 

I totally understand how hard it could be though. I have 3 under 5 and am pregnant and keep up on dishes, laundry and the bathroom but barely anything else gets done and I feel like I'm cleaning, cooking and caring for kids needs all day. 

Also I had a couple friends growing up whose houses would have probably been considered unsanitary by DHS but they had very loving, caring (in other ways) parents. It would take a lot for me to understand removing a child because of uncleanliness.

[KSera]

 

16 minutes ago, Momof3sweetgirls said:

Also I had a couple friends growing up whose houses would have probably been considered unsanitary by DHS but they had very loving, caring (in other ways) parents. It would take a lot for me to understand removing a child because of uncleanliness.

Same. I grew up in a pristine house (with pretty good parenting), but had some friends with very cluttered houses, kitchen counters always covered, and they also had good, loving families who were taking good care of them, feeding them good meals (actually, most of those super messy friend houses had moms who did lots of gardening and cooking and fed their kids much better than how we ate). It's such a traumatic thing to kids to be removed from their home that it would have to be dangerous for me to think that was the best way to deal with it.

I'm also aware that ability to keep an uncluttered house is sometimes hampered by things like ADHD, chronic health issues, or something else that doesn't prevent someone from being a good parent. Actually, having ADHD kids can in itself be a major barrier for someone to keep their house up because multiple kids with ADHD can easily create disorganization faster than anyone can keep up with.

None of that includes animal waste, garbage or rotting food.

[Laura Corin]

I grew up with parents who weren't interested in housework. Dust? Unless someone has asthma or similar, I don't think that's a health problem.

Kitchen counters should be wiped fairly regularly, but a dirty hob is less important - food doesn't touch it directly. Kitchen floors should be mopped sometimes if there's a crawling child, but otherwise I don't think sticky underfoot is a health hazard. 

Bathroom? A clean toilet and sink is necessary and the floor around the toilet is important,  but the shower is less so. 

I prefer a cleaner house, but that's not a question of hygiene.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Laura Corin

[Carrie12345]

There’s what I deem clean vs. dirty, and then there’s a whole different realm that covers safe vs. unsafe. They’re not the same categories.

Uncontrolled bugs and/or rodents are unsafe. Mold eating away at a structure is unsafe. Rotting trash is unsafe. Feces is unsafe. Stray weapons are unsafe. Piles of hoard are unsafe. No access to clean water or dirty water removal is unsafe. No access to heat or cooking methods is unsafe. 

I currently have a dirty house, imo. It is incredibly safe. Those two things have nothing to do with one another.  
Kids don’t technically need “clean”, though I’d prefer they had it. They need safe. My preferred standards can’t be applied to everyone. (Not even myself right now.)

[Ausmumof3]

It would have to be pretty bad to justify the  trauma of removing kids. 😞 as a homeschool mum my house has certainly been messier and dirtier than a lot of mums I know with kids in school but my kids were much less sick because they weren’t exposed to everyone’s germs all the time. 
 

If there’s animal hoarding, many rooms that can’t be accessed due to major clutter, no working sewage or no access to clean drinking water it needs to be sorted. Even then I’d hope that the first action would be support to get that sorted out. Broken glass, needles etc obviously need to be dealt with. 
 

I’ve seen kids from some pretty dirty homes thrive. The only kids I know of that 100pc should have been removed from their parents lived in an immaculate home with wealth and great routines etc. didn’t stop the abuse behind closed doors though. 

[HomeAgain]

I think it's a question of bacterial vs. clutter and dust.

Bacterial filth is not okay.  Bathrooms should be somewhat clean, kitchens should be safe, there should be no animal feces, bugs, or rodents or evidence of them.

Clutter and dust happens, no matter how hard you try. It's just part of living with kids.  I grew up with a lot of clutter, but the house was never unsanitary.  It's not an ideal environment (i remember having no idea how to "clean" my room because I didn't know where anything went), but it's not a huge health hazard, either.

[Ausmumof3]

I think rural versus urban is a big distinction too. I see so many people talking about no evidence of rodents but even very clean houses and uninhabited places will have rodents and roaches during plague times. I’ve never had mouse problems when we lived in the city though the rats used to run along the fences at night to get to people’s fruit trees but we have them move in at least once or twice a year here. And there are always bugs. Moths, spiders, millipedes, mosquitos, midges. Sometimes roaches. We vacuum them up, sometimes we perimeter spray if they get too bad but I’m pretty sure the chemicals are worse than a handful of bugs. 

Edited March 15, 2023 by Ausmumof3

[Teaching3bears]

How do people with physical disabilities, health problems, injuries, sickness, and the elderly keep their homes clean?  Vacuums are heavy, housework is taxing on the body.  I like a clean house.  I don’t know what will happen when I’m old. 

[Laura Corin]

27 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think rural versus urban is a big distinction too. I see so many people talking about no evidence of rodents but even very clean houses and uninhabited places will have rodents and roaches during plague times. I’ve never had mouse problems when we lived in the city though the rats used to run along the fences at night to get to people’s fruit trees but we have them move in at least once or twice a year here. And there are always bugs. Moths, spiders, millipedes, mosquitos, midges. Sometimes roaches. We vacuum them up, sometimes we perimeter spray if they get too bad but I’m pretty sure the chemicals are worse than a handful of bugs. 

We have intermittent mouse problems, living next to an open field on the edge of a village.  I leave traps set and check them daily, but recently I discovered a stock cube that had fallen down the back of a drawer and had clearly been feasted on by mice at some point.  So there was 'long term evidence of rodents' but not really avoidable.

We had lots of spiders and woodlice in the house when I was a child, but I don't think it was unhealthy.

[Scarlett]

9 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

I have certain standards for my own house, and they have went through stages over the years,  but as far as unsanitary or dangerous-

1.  Feces- no feces anywhere children can get to- human or animal.  Dirty diapers should be disposed of before maggots or bugs 🤮 

2. Old food, drink, or dirty dishes- no food with mold growing on it should be out where children can get it.  No spoiled drinks, but empty cups okay.  Check sippy cups for fermented juice or soured milk. Dirty dishes here or there,  probably okay, but not days worth of dishes.  If they have a working dishwasher,  probably less lenient, but I would be understanding if they have several littles and no dishwasher  (been there, done that, its hard)

3. Safety- no broken glass, knives or sharp utensils anywhere at all.  No cord blinds. No growling dogs or animals that might pose a threat. Cleaning supplies and alcoholic drinks locked up. I'd prefer locks on doors with stairs and outlet covers, but would offer free ones if possible.  

4. Controlled Substances, alcohol, MJ- none of these things out where a child could reach them.  If I smell these items on the client, they shouldn't be using while caring for an infant or toddler especially.  

5. Bathrooms- this is the hardest one because it can be hard to tell if it's a matter of not cleaning, or if previous renters just ruined the subfloor (urine under the toilet will not stop stinking and you have to pull the toilet then properly clean it- even urine under the lid can be hard to get). Leaky toilet, trap not sealed- a lot of older houses have plumbing issues. Hard water stains may look like you didn't clean the tub.  Mold and mildew can be hard to control,  too.  I would not want any baby toys with mold on them, and must have safe bathing items as determined by age.  I would want to see each child has toothbrush, hand soap,  shampoo, and if needed period stuff and deodorant. 

6.  Kitchen- no food out that should be refrigerated.  No cockroaches, but I might ignore ants- it can be really hard to get rid of bugs.  If they had food out plus bugs- yuck!  That is their fault- I consider it unsanitary,  but not sure I'd want to pull kids for just that reason.  There are lots of families who do not see the problem with a few roaches 🪳 

7.  General- a few changes of clothes in the floor would be okay.  Toys kids are playing with out is okay. Clothes that have been in the floor for months- not okay.  Every toy avaliable out, so that its a tripping hazard or dangerous- not okay.  

I would ignore floors that needed vacuuming if they do not have a vacuum.  I would ignore stains on carpet and floors.  I would try to decide if structural issues with the house were at play when considering smells. 

Social workers have such a hard job.  There is an intersection with poverty,  mental illness, and cleanliness.  If one isn't taught to clean, they will not automatically know how to do it.  If they lack the focus or organizational skills, it can be really hard. Having multiple young children is exhausting,  so I'd like to give grace wherevI can.  All that said,  children do not deserve to grow up in an unsafe home with feces, rotting food, bugs, and filth.  

I think this is a good list.  

[Xahm]

Echoing a couple of posters above: expectations about bug and rodent presence is going to need to be regionally adjusted. In our area, even if you keep things very clean and use lots of poison, you are going to find at least dead cockroaches in any given building. They come in from outside and are perfectly happy to eat the glue in corrugated cardboard, soap, the bodies of their fellows, anything. Obviously there are things you can do that make it get way, way worse, but if you are from around here, a few roaches here and there just isn't a big deal because my sanity won't allow it to be. We don't allow food anywhere except the main level, but roaches will still climb up the side of the house, squeeze around the upstairs window screens, and feast on the spare soap under the sink. It is disheartening.

[Soror]

 

14 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I’ve hotlined homes with animal feces all over the floors, refrigerators filled with moldly food, months of garbage on the floor or in bags, broken toilets so people are urinating into buckets and soda bottles, roaches all over the place.

My standards are probably pretty low. If there’s no excrement or bugs, I don’t worry about it.

Yes, that is around the standards of my home county. 

To be clear--- I'm going into homes where DFS have made the referral, so I'm not the one that is evaluating whether their home is 'clean' enough. I have just found it amusing the wildly different standards (or rather the application of standards) from one county to the next. I'm wondering if discrimination is at play or if they are so strict with everyone. 

It is easier to keep things clean when you have the means and money and you are mentally well. We are working with clients on accessing help with mental health issues, establishing systems to take care of kids, clean, etc, and some financial funds for things like trash removal and spraying for bugs etc. 

Like @Ausmumof3 said IMO it would have to be very bad to make it worth the trauma of taking the kids on sanitation alone. 

 

29 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

We have intermittent mouse problems, living next to an open field on the edge of a village.  I leave traps set and check them daily, but recently I discovered a stock cube that had fallen down the back of a drawer and had clearly been feasted on by mice at some point.  So there was 'long term evidence of rodents' but not really avoidable.

We had lots of spiders and woodlice in the house when I was a child, but I don't think it was unhealthy.

Yes, keeping out rodents of various types is going to be a lot harder for some than others ie people that live next to fields or woodlands, people that live in houses that aren't sealed well, people that live next to others that have them, and people that live in apartments that are infested- even if they get rid of them they will keep coming back. 

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I think rural versus urban is a big distinction too. I see so many people talking about no evidence of rodents but even very clean houses and uninhabited places will have rodents and roaches during plague times. I’ve never had mouse problems when we lived in the city though the rats used to run along the fences at night to get to people’s fruit trees but we have them move in at least once or twice a year here. And there are always bugs. Moths, spiders, millipedes, mosquitos, midges. Sometimes roaches. We vacuum them up, sometimes we perimeter spray if they get too bad but I’m pretty sure the chemicals are worse than a handful of bugs. 

Yeah, I couldn’t think of a better word than “uncontrolled”.  My old house gets ants every year, no matter what I did. But I did what I could.   Which is different from roaches infesting beds.
We had the occasional mouse. Which is different from mouse babies being bred in piles of dirty laundry.  
I don’t know anyone anywhere who NEVER gets spiders, but that’s different from not treating fleas.

[Jaybee]

I know a family that struggles with organization/cleanliness of home and "stuff". They also have several young children. I have sometimes worried about what would happen if someone put them on DFS' radar, due to this. It would absolutely be horrible, because those children are some of the best loved and cared for children I have ever seen. The house would really drive me nuts. But there is no way those children should ever be taken from that home. It would traumatize both children and parents. (The children are sensitive and highly intelligent.)

I have lived in a few places where roaches were a problem. It's a challenge to keep them out of apartment buildings sometimes. The worst was one summer when I was in college, sharing a supplied apartment with a work partner in an old apartment building with some elderly women who hoarded newspapers and such. I have never seen such. We worked on the roach problem all summer, and it was considerably lessened by the end, but there were still some there. 

 

[SKL]

For kids to legally live in, I think "unsanitary" would be if the family accumulated decaying garbage (food, diapers, etc.) longer than a week or two (allowing for the fact that someone might have been too sick on garbage day last week), animal waste indoors (not counting litter contents) for longer than a day, anything dead more than a day after it's discovered, no hot and cold running water, a serious unaddressed pest problem, or a failure to clean obvious nast off of bathroom or kitchen fixtures for a week or more.

I'm not saying that's where *my* threshold is.  😛  But I think we have to recognize that life situations can make it hard to keep up 100% or even 50%.  If I found something nasty in the morning while getting ready for work, I might have to wait until night to clean it up, assuming the alternative is not having money to feed my kids.  If I work 2 jobs, some things might have to wait longer than if I worked fewer hours.  It doesn't mean my kids would be better off in foster care.

It might not be a bad idea to refer people to housekeeping trainings if things are a bit nasty / quite disorganized but not seriously unsanitary.

[SKL]

16 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

Some of the most loving homes I have visited were the most cluttered.  And some of the most unhealthy homes were sparkling clean and neat.

My mom used to use family friend E's house as an example - "you could eat off her floors."  Yet come to find out, that house was the location of many kinds of abuse.  But at least the sheets were changed frequently.  😞

My mom always felt like our house was too messy, though we did clean the surfaces weekly & the dishes every night.  We were too poor to have a hoard, but clutter, yes.  8 people in a bungalow with any interesting occupations are gonna have to step over things sometimes.  Even in my current house, even when the kids have picked up all their crap, there's the dog toys, shoes, etc.  It's life.

[SKL]

Yeah, we get mice because we live near woods.  We have traps and stuff.  We don't really see evidence of the mice, except when we find a little hoard they have created in an odd place, or when we go to clean an area that rarely gets cleaned (like the tops of the hanging ceiling tiles in the basement).  We've also had squirrels, raccoons, and even a skunk.  It's not like we want it that way.  😛  These things can be hard to address.

Never had roaches, mainly because we've never lived in a neighborhood that had them.  My dad used to be terrified of the idea, so he wouldn't even look at homes on "that side of the bridge."  When anyone traveled to a place that might have roaches, they'd have to unpack out in the driveway and shake everything off and then spray the suitcase and wash all the clothes.  We all understand that this attitude is a luxury.

So, as others have said, the pest issue has to be viewed from a local perspective.  The point is, are the kids safe enough?  Do the parents seem to care about that?

[KungFuPanda]

::Slinks off to clean the fridge::

[lovinmyboys]

1 hour ago, KungFuPanda said:

::Slinks off to clean the fridge::

This! Our house is very clean- the cleaner came yesterday and I did the dishes and laundry and trash. However, this thread is giving me stress- I don’t actually remember the last time I changed our sheets 😬 and I’m pretty sure there is some inedible food in the back of the fridge. I know what I am doing tonight 😀

[freesia]

1 hour ago, lovinmyboys said:

This! Our house is very clean- the cleaner came yesterday and I did the dishes and laundry and trash. However, this thread is giving me stress- I don’t actually remember the last time I changed our sheets 😬 and I’m pretty sure there is some inedible food in the back of the fridge. I know what I am doing tonight 😀

I think inedible food at the back of the fridge is not unusual or a huge red flag for me. I was surprised by that. Some weeks we are on top of it, but it’s not super high on the list. Sheets are in that category for me, too. Busy, high stress times come with choices and neither of these scream neglect to me. Now visible soiled, stiff sheets are different. 
 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Even at my messiest I have known that I wasn't to the level of CPS intervention.  Yes, I've had "science experiments" in my fridge.  I do try to stay on top of it but sometimes a tupperware container gets missed.  What is CPS worthy is if there is no other food and that food gets served to people.  (This actually was something we had to check on with my ILs with dementia - not that CPS would be called - but because it was a legitimate health concern especially because taste and smell can be blunted with age). 

[Hilltopmom]

4 hours ago, SKL said:

For kids to legally live in, I think "unsanitary" would be if the family accumulated decaying garbage (food, diapers, etc.) longer than a week or two (allowing for the fact that someone might have been too sick on garbage day last week), animal waste indoors (not counting litter contents) for longer than a day, anything dead more than a day after it's discovered, no hot and cold running water, a serious unaddressed pest problem, or a failure to clean obvious nast off of bathroom or kitchen fixtures for a week or more.

I'm not saying that's where *my* threshold is.  😛  But I think we have to recognize that life situations can make it hard to keep up 100% or even 50%.  If I found something nasty in the morning while getting ready for work, I might have to wait until night to clean it up, assuming the alternative is not having money to feed my kids.  If I work 2 jobs, some things might have to wait longer than if I worked fewer hours.  It doesn't mean my kids would be better off in foster care.

It might not be a bad idea to refer people to housekeeping trainings if things are a bit nasty / quite disorganized but not seriously unsanitary.

Actually, as far as CPS is concerned, running water is not required in your home. I literally just sat through a refresher training an hour ago at work.

 

[kbutton]

This topic gets me a little hot when the people in the situation have major barriers to having a clean house and they are poor.

I have also seen what passes for livable in move-in condition, and some landlords should be drawn and quartered. 

[ktgrok]

22 hours ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

I’ve hotlined homes with animal feces all over the floors, refrigerators filled with moldly food, months of garbage on the floor or in bags, broken toilets so people are urinating into buckets and soda bottles, roaches all over the place.

My standards are probably pretty low. If there’s no excrement or bugs, I don’t worry about it.

This. I mean, standards for my own house are higher, for for taking kids away? Excrement (and I don't mean some dirty diapers) or bug infestation that is not being addressed (I know it can take a while to fully clear up an infestation), kids without clean/unspoiled food or clean clothes to wear, etc. 

Yes, dishes should be washed, but we all have had days where they sat longer than ideal. Now, if the sink is full of dishes that have obviously been there for weeks, there are no clean dishes for the kids to use (or paper plates or whatever), that's different. But if dishes are done even every few days, kids have access to unspoiled food, there is not human or animal feces being left out, etc...I'd be hella hesitant to say kids should be removed. Yes, I'd want that family to get help, but not take the kids. Sticky floors are not more traumatic than separation from family. 

[Clarita]

7 hours ago, Soror said:

I'm wondering if discrimination is at play or if they are so strict with everyone. 

I didn't want to say this. Or that this gives enough ammunition/grey area to be discriminatory.

[ktgrok]

6 hours ago, SKL said:

My mom used to use family friend E's house as an example - "you could eat off her floors."  Yet come to find out, that house was the location of many kinds of abuse.  But at least the sheets were changed frequently.  😞

My mom always felt like our house was too messy, though we did clean the surfaces weekly & the dishes every night.  We were too poor to have a hoard, but clutter, yes.  8 people in a bungalow with any interesting occupations are gonna have to step over things sometimes.  Even in my current house, even when the kids have picked up all their crap, there's the dog toys, shoes, etc.  It's life.

My mom always repeated the quote ' messy enough to be happy, clean enough to be healthy".

[ktgrok]

17 hours ago, KSera said:

 

I'm also aware that ability to keep an uncluttered house is sometimes hampered by things like ADHD, chronic health issues, or something else that doesn't prevent someone from being a good parent. Actually, having ADHD kids can in itself be a major barrier for someone to keep their house up because multiple kids with ADHD can easily create disorganization faster than anyone can keep up with.

None of that includes animal waste, garbage or rotting food.

Truth. My house is almost never as clean as it could or should be, but we ALL have ADHD here. We make messes faster (ADHD AND we are all makers/crafter of some kind or another) and we are worse at remembering to clean regularly. And when I am cleaning, my little creative 5 yr old is destroying what I cleaned right behind me. And doing it faster than I clean. Sigh. 

[maize]

On 3/14/2023 at 4:41 PM, Mrs Tiggywinkle Again said:

Some of the most loving homes I have visited were the most cluttered.  

I'd like to think my home falls in this category.

My in-laws, who are truly lovely people most of the time, do not approve of my housekeeping. And honestly, they have a point. Housekeeping is NOT my strength. I'm an ADHD mom of a bunch of neurodivergent kids with a neurodivergent husband who is super easily overwhelmed (read: not capable of contributing to housekeeping, meal preparation, yardwork, etc. because 100% of his mental and emotional resources go to holding down a job and trying to maintain some degree of emotional regulation).

My home is rarely clean enough that I am comfortable inviting people in, and home maintenance issues get put on the back burner for ages because I'm the only one who can address them and my to-do list is ten miles long.

My house is smallish for the number of people we have, the only place for the kids to play and hang out is the living room. My living room easily becomes a mess of blanket forts, paper crafting scraps, and whatever else kids have left out. The dishwasher gets run at least twice a day, but there are always dishes on the counter and the table. The kitchen floor does not get swept every day, there will likely be crumbs and random pieces of cat food if someone pops in unexpectedly. My bathrooms do get cleaned regularly but one of my neurodivergent kids has some odd pooping behavior that leaves smears on the back of the toilet bowl every.single.time and the low-flush toilets do not flush them off. I do not clean the toilet every single day so it may look awful at any given time. My dirty laundry pile is probably tall enough to sled down and I happen to know that my cat litter box is overdue for cleaning out because I've been noticing and procrastinating that every time I walk into the laundry room today.

If you judge my family by the state of my home, we aren't getting high marks.

But guys, I have kids who are loved, who know they are loved, and who love and are good friends with each other. I often get comments from others--including the afore-mentioned in-laws--about how kind my kids are. The older kids are kind and patient with the younger kids, the younger kids look up to and trust their older siblings, those close in age spend hours talking, playing, filming, singing together. I work hard to find and facilitate opportunities appropriate to the interests and needs of each child. A lot of the clutter in my living room is books and musical instruments--including four cellos in different sizes!

I could absolutely benefit from a weekly housekeeper and twice the space we have, but the impact that would have on the wellbeing of my kids honestly wouldn't be huge--because I intentionally channel my energy and efforts as a mother to the areas that matter most to their wellbeing. 

A spotless house isn't one of those.

Edited March 16, 2023 by maize

[Kassia]

You're doing a great job, @maize ❤️

[Not_a_Number]

We've definitely failed some of these standards at points. Especially when DH and I could NOT agree about the cleaning, the place was a tripping hazard -- toys everywhere. And I still tend to procrastinate scrubbing bathtubs and showers, as well as washing the sheets. (And let's not even talk about dusting...) 

For me, the state of the house is definitely a way to gauge my mental health, interestingly. I am much more comfortable in a less messy place, so I strive for it -- keeping myself regulated is a real goal recently, and it's an uphill battle. 

Of course, even "less messy" for us looks very lived in! We will never have a pristine place and we don't want to. 

[kbutton]

49 minutes ago, maize said:

I could absolutely benefit from a weekly housekeeper and twice the space we have, but the impact that would have on the wellbeing of my kids honestly wouldn't be huge--because I intentionally channel my energy and efforts as a mother to the areas that matter most to their wellbeing. 

A spotless house isn't one of those.

Adding onto this...most anyone who teaches their kids to do chores as a lifeskill (and especially if they start early with non-NT kids) will testify that it takes longer, makes it harder, and is not done as well. But that's how they learn. And if you want them to feel like they aren't good enough, cleaning behind them is a great way to send that message. You have to tolerate a different standard unless they are awesome at chores from the get go.

There is a book called Children Who Do Too Little that talks about teaching kids chores as lifeskills and pre-employment skills. The title sounds snarky, but it's not a snarky book. It talks a lot about tolerating less than perfect in order to help kids learn to do things.

And if you have a lot going against you...teaching kids is also harder still! 

And health issues...I know someone who doesn't have and can't afford a shower that is accessible, and that person has to use a gym membership to access an adequate shower facility. I can't imagine how many people use a YMCA or rec center for services like this, especially if they qualify for a reduced membership rate due to health issues or income.

[ktgrok]

I can say that our school/play room and my DD5's room are often a tripping hazard. It takes DD5 less than an hour to strew stuff all over as she makes a tea party at the "beach" for half a dozen stuffed animals, including full menus she cut out of various construction paper and colored on, presented on a "table" made of a box and some legos, etc etc. I just do NOT have the spoons to sort and clean all that every single day. And she's not capable of doing it all herself - she does try but yeah....toys strewn about are the norm, not the exception, for her room and often the school room. 

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I had a clean house until both my kids were in upper elementary/middle school.  Then the demands of homeschool meant that I couldn't keep up any more.  (No commentary is intended here for people with a lot more children who can keep a clean house or people with less kids who can't.  It just happened to be my personal line where I no longer had the capacity to keep up with the house.  Homeschool was a higher priority for me, though housework still did have some priority.  Like Maize, dishes did get cleaned regularly , so did laundry and bathroom cleaning even though it might not look like it on the surface.  It's only now as an empty nester (and a few years after becoming an empty nester) that I now have a "company ready" house.  As long as you don't go in the back rooms, that is. 

[Heartstrings]

7 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

 

Even at my messiest I have known that I wasn't to the level of CPS intervention

 

This has worried me from time to time because it’s subjective.  A case worker with a bias against homeschooling *could* say that my dishes from last nights dinner, the days trash that needs to go out but hasn’t yet, a weeks worth of laundry piled up and a bathroom used by little boys constituted a “filthy house”.  I’m not saying one *would* mind you, but it’s something that has caused me stress from time to time because  it would be my word that my house was only an hours worth of work away from spotless against a caseworker saying it was filth.  I think it was a stressor for me the first few years that we homeschooled when I was hearing fear mongering stories and we were newly lower income because of the loss of my income.  

5 hours ago, ktgrok said:

es, dishes should be washed, but we all have had days where they sat longer than ideal. Now, if the sink is full of dishes that have obviously been there for weeks, there are no clean dishes for the kids to use (

This reminded me of my best friend growing up.  I grew up in a house where every dish was washed immediately after dinner every single night.  Her house had a single mom working a physical job and she didn’t care about spotless because she was legitimately exhausted.  They did dishes only after every single dish in the house had been used.  If you weren’t eating cereal out of a measuring cup  it wasn’t time to wash the dishes yet.  🤣.  It was quite the culture shock for me at the time, especially in the day or so before wash day.  It was never nasty, just very messy.  

[Harriet Vane]

17 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

This has worried me from time to time because it’s subjective.  A case worker with a bias against homeschooling *could* say that my dishes from last nights dinner, the days trash that needs to go out but hasn’t yet, a weeks worth of laundry piled up and a bathroom used by little boys constituted a “filthy house”.  I’m not saying one *would* mind you, but it’s something that has caused me stress from time to time because  it would be my word that my house was only an hours worth of work away from spotless against a caseworker saying it was filth.  I think it was a stressor for me the first few years that we homeschooled when I was hearing fear mongering stories and we were newly lower income because of the loss of my income.  

This reminded me of my best friend growing up.  I grew up in a house where every dish was washed immediately after dinner every single night.  Her house had a single mom working a physical job and she didn’t care about spotless because she was legitimately exhausted.  They did dishes only after every single dish in the house had been used.  If you weren’t eating cereal out of a measuring cup  it wasn’t time to wash the dishes yet.  🤣.  It was quite the culture shock for me at the time, especially in the day or so before wash day.  It was never nasty, just very messy.  

There are no caseworkers pulling kids from homes based on anything described in this thread. Trust me. There is such a shortage of foster homes that they simply don't have the option to be overly fussy about cleaning, and they don't care anyway. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 minute ago, Harriet Vane said:

There are no caseworkers pulling kids from homes based on anything described in this thread. Trust me. There is such a shortage of foster homes that they simply don't have the option to be overly fussy about cleaning, and they don't care anyway. 

I agree.  I've been in homes that would definitely qualify and caseworkers were still working with parents as much as possible.  I've seen babies crawling on floors soaked with urine and feces and with drug paraphernalia within reach.  I've seen maggots in rotted food.  Those are the conditions that they are trying to prevent.  Most people who have reached that level have significant substance abuse and/or mental illness and not just a lack of the "housekeeping gene". 

[Heartstrings]

3 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

There are no caseworkers pulling kids from homes based on anything described in this thread. Trust me. There is such a shortage of foster homes that they simply don't have the option to be overly fussy about cleaning, and they don't care anyway. 

I know that *now*.   But young moms are fed a bunch of horror stories when you first start homeschooling.  HSLDA has pages on what to do if CPS shows up. Shoot, it’s kind of HSLDAs business model to convince you that the government is coming after you for homeschooling.  I remember a couple of moms joking about tattooing  their NOI on the child’s back so they always had it.    
When I first started I was 24 and the whole thing felt illicit, not working, not sending the kids to school. I had always worked and had no idea what staying home with 2 kids was going to do to my house.  

[Katy]

24 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

There are no caseworkers pulling kids from homes based on anything described in this thread. Trust me. There is such a shortage of foster homes that they simply don't have the option to be overly fussy about cleaning, and they don't care anyway. 

This.  It's actually a screener question for foster parents.  Apparently people who need to have their house TOO clean freak out when suddenly overwhelmed with children and their many messes.

[SKL]

I will say ... I cleaned like a maniac that time someone called the cops on my kids in the car (for 2.5 minutes when it wasn't hot).  For 3 weeks, we had the cleanest house in the county.  😛

[Brittany1116]

I maintain a very clean home. Not spotless, but regularly cleaned surfaces and good organization. I struggle with filing/shredding papers, though, and don't mind leaving a dish in the sink overnight to soak. 

Tonight I helped a friend who has very different standards for cleanliness. I have known this for many years. However, I was a bit shocked to see her teen's room that teen claimed she had "just cleaned yesterday". Overflowing baskets of clothes, a dozen scattered hangers, books and papers and makeup everywhere, food wrappers and unwrapped (possibly used) panty liners on the floor. Blinds damaged, rug upside down in a knot with shoes bunched up in it. I told her I would help her clean her room this week and I don't even know how to approach it beyond just physically rearranging her stuff. She was a trash hoarder as a small child. We did this years ago when she was tiny. I am trying to figure out what to say because it's inevitable she has a mess again in a week, but I also feel like she listens to me.