If your teens don't want to go to church

[barnwife]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

My brother and his wife had a rule that their kids had to go until age 18 and they also had to be confirmed. When they were teens, one did not agree or believe in their faith and immediately stopped attending at age 18. The other was more on board, but has now left Catholicism and occasionally attends a different church. I would say that in the case of the one who doesn’t attend church at all that it caused a great deal of resentment and conflict. She fundamentally disagreed with some of the teachings of the church, it wasn’t that she just wanted to sleep in or do something different on Sunday morning. Personally, the idea of requiring confirmation seems wrong on so many levels, but it was quite common when I was growing up in a very Catholic area.

Growing up, as far as I know none of us asked not to go to church. But I did resent my parents forcing me to go to confession and also occasionally forcing us to say the rosary together as a family. It never felt like a positive or spiritual thing and I have pretty negative memories related to it.
 

I think my mom’s approach with her grandchildren was far better. Before they were teens, if staying with her they went to church because she wasn’t going to leave them home alone. But as teens, they were invited to attend with her, but were not forced. For the most part, even those who didn’t believe continued to attend with her.

 

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

 but leave the choice of whether to be confirmed, and whether to go after confirmation up to the kid. 

Well, a person who chooses to be confirmed (in the Catholic faith) at the now common age (14-16ish), should understand that Confirmation is a committment to living out the Catholic faith. It's not a graduation (Great! That's done. Now I can stop attending Mass.). If one isn't willing to make that committment, they should not choose Confirmation.

Sadly, there is a lot of poor catechization out there, and many don't understand that.

However, absolutely people should be able to choose Confirmation or not a the now common ages.

I'd prefer the restored order though for many reasons (including avoiding that confusion). 

1 hour ago, Murphy101 said:

I think it is a huge disservice to the next generation when they don’t receive the sacraments in the restored order. They need every grace they can get before puberty imnsho. 

Agreed! Give my kids all the grace they can get.

Our oldest is only 12, so we haven't had to face this yet. So far, attending Mass is just what happens on Sundays. I don't think it's occurred to any of them that it might be something they could choose not to do. I do know that I hope and pray they choose to be confirmed. If they make that committment, I'd hope they follow through on living faithfully.

[Alice]

We let them choose. We have one now who is not attending. 

[Faith-manor]

9 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, I really WANT to agree with you about this, but I'm just not sure I do.  

I think what a person believes about God absolutely can be a central, driving life question.  But I'm not sure it always is.  Most of our friends aren't church goers.  Some of them have NEVER been church goers.  My kids have friends that are three generations out from church attendance.  They know absolutely nothing about God or the church and they simply don't care.  It's just not a relevant thing to them.  

I think, for the moment, that for most of the United States, what you believe about God is still a core part of your identity, but I think for huge sections of the population, it really is not.  

Absolutely agree. 

[Frances]

7 minutes ago, barnwife said:

 

Well, a person who chooses to be confirmed (in the Catholic faith) at the now common age (14-16ish), should understand that Confirmation is a committment to living out the Catholic faith. It's not a graduation (Great! That's done. Now I can stop attending Mass.). If one isn't willing to make that committment, they should not choose Confirmation.

Sadly, there is a lot of poor catechization out there, and many don't understand that.

However, absolutely people should be able to choose Confirmation or not a the now common ages.

I'd prefer the restored order though for many reasons (including avoiding that confusion). 

Agreed! Give my kids all the grace they can get.

Our oldest is only 12, so we haven't had to face this yet. So far, attending Mass is just what happens on Sundays. I don't think it's occurred to any of them that it might be something they could choose not to do. I do know that I hope and pray they choose to be confirmed. If they make that committment, I'd hope they follow through on living faithfully.

I’m a little confused by all of this. So you think a very young child can choose to make a commitment to live out the Catholic faith? I agree that no one should be forced to be confirmed, especially not teens, but most young children don’t actually have a real choice or a real understanding, it would be much like being baptized. Now if confirmation is actually bestowing the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not making a commitment to live out the Catholic faith, then confirming young children makes sense. But it doesn’t seem as though the various Dioceses in the US are in agreement about what it means.

[Harriet Vane]

13 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, I really WANT to agree with you about this, but I'm just not sure I do.  

I think what a person believes about God absolutely can be a central, driving life question.  But I'm not sure it always is.  Most of our friends aren't church goers.  Some of them have NEVER been church goers.  My kids have friends that are three generations out from church attendance.  They know absolutely nothing about God or the church and they simply don't care.  It's just not a relevant thing to them.  

I think, for the moment, that for most of the United States, what you believe about God is still a core part of your identity, but I think for huge sections of the population, it really is not.  

You are talking about two different groups: those who have never been in a religious setting, and those who have.

The OP's question specifically applies to those who have grown up in a religious setting.

[Harriet Vane]

18 minutes ago, Terabith said:

So, I really WANT to agree with you about this, but I'm just not sure I do.  

I think what a person believes about God absolutely can be a central, driving life question.  But I'm not sure it always is.  Most of our friends aren't church goers.  Some of them have NEVER been church goers.  My kids have friends that are three generations out from church attendance.  They know absolutely nothing about God or the church and they simply don't care.  It's just not a relevant thing to them.  

I think, for the moment, that for most of the United States, what you believe about God is still a core part of your identity, but I think for huge sections of the population, it really is not.  

I would also argue that many people of many different spiritual "flavors" really do feel the question of God is a central question. It's not unique to Christianity. Whether or not there are people out there who do not believe in God doesn't really affect how people of faith feel about raising their children.

[Terabith]

1 minute ago, Harriet Vane said:

You are talking about two different groups: those who have never been in a religious setting, and those who have.

The OP's question specifically applies to those who have grown up in a religious setting.

Yeah, that is true.  I find it an interesting sociological question.  

Honestly, though, I think it is both a religious question and a sociological question.  Because pretty much none of my kids' peers attend church, even though my kids grew up in the church, I don't think they see the issue of God as a core part of their own identity.  

[prairiewindmomma]

5 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

You are talking about two different groups: those who have never been in a religious setting, and those who have.

The OP's question specifically applies to those who have grown up in a religious setting.

As someone who grew up in a religious setting and raised kids there for 18+ years, and then left it as a family—-one of the surprises has been discovering how very many people have no connection to religion at all. 
 

 

[Harriet Vane]

3 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

As someone who grew up in a religious setting and raised kids there for 18+ years, and then left it as a family—-one of the surprises has been discovering how very many people have no connection to religion at all. 
 

 

Yes, I'm not disputing that point. There ARE many people out there who do not claim a religious affiliation. But that's not related to the OP's question. That's why I said (bold simply to point out relevant quote, not shouting):

I would also argue that many people of many different spiritual "flavors" really do feel the question of God is a central question. It's not unique to Christianity. Whether or not there are people out there who do not believe in God doesn't really affect how people of faith feel about raising their children.

[barnwife]

1 minute ago, Frances said:

I’m a little confused by all of this. So you think a very young child can choose to make a commitment to live out the Catholic faith? I agree that no one should be forced to be confirmed, especially not teens, but most young children don’t actually have a real choice or a real understanding, it would be much like being baptized. Now if confirmation is actually bestowing the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not making a commitment to live out the Catholic faith, then confirming young children makes sense. But it doesn’t seem as though the various Dioceses in the US are in agreement about what it means.

You aren't the only one confused. Many, many Roman Catholics have been poorly catechized about Confirmation. If you go back to the early Church, all sacraments of initiation were done at once (so baptism, Eucharist, Confirmation). This makes sense, as most of the people joining the Church were adults. But, eventually the question of kids came into play. And somehow baptism, Eucharist, and Confirmation, which had been part of one church service were separated into 3 different times in the RCC. The EO, otoh, retained the custom of all three at the same time (at least, that's my understanding).

So here we are as he RCC, and yes, when Confirmation happens at the now common ages of 14-16ish, no one should force you to be confirmed. (Yes, of course there are parents/families who apply lots of pressure. That isn't good for them, or the RCC at large). Yes, Confirmation gives the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Those who seek Confirmation are choosing to accept that gift (or their parents are choosing it for them when received at a younger age). If they truly were well-catechized, they would understand that in so choosing they are choosing a relationship with God/the Holy Trinity. The continuing to live out the faith afterwards is then a no-brainer. It's just what happens. You worship at Mass as part of living out the faith. 

If I haven't explained this well, I am sorry. I'm just a cradle Catholic, who is one of those who wasn't well-catechized. I fully admit I was confirmed because it seemed like the thing to do. I hope to avoid that for our kids. I am doing my best to slowly learn more about the faith. 
 

[SKL]

I was allowed to quit going once I completed 8th grade.

I do ask my kids to go to church during the school year.  They aren't really into it, but they have some friends they see there (who don't go to their current school), so it isn't a big fight.

I prefer for my kids to go to church at least some of the time.  I don't agree with everything that is said at church, nor do I expect my kids to, but I do think it's healthy to regularly think about spirituality.  I also think that eventually, they'll want to voluntarily attend, but it may be harder if they quit completely.

We stayed home for about 2 years due to Covid, and it was hard going back, even though we watched most services online.  I don't want to get cut off again if I can help it.

If we were having serious fights about it, I would look for a compromise.  For example, let's look for another house of worship that seems to be more in line with where you are spiritually.  I really think it's important to model spirituality.  Especially since my kids have only one parent ... and we all know that nobody believes what they are told by one person, especially if you're a teen and that one person is your mom.  😛

[prairiewindmomma]

3 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

Yes, I'm not disputing that point. There ARE many people out there who do not claim a religious affiliation. But that's not related to the OP's question. That's why I said (bold simply to point out relevant quote, not shouting):

I would also argue that many people of many different spiritual "flavors" really do feel the question of God is a central question. It's not unique to Christianity. Whether or not there are people out there who do not believe in God doesn't really affect how people of faith feel about raising their children.

Right, let’s assume that religious and not religious families generally want most of the same things for their children (health, joy, connection to community, etc.) but religious families also often  believe that either:

1. Belief in religion makes them a better person than they would be without religion (morally) and/or 

2. Belief in religion is necessary for salvation

#1 isn’t true (arguably much sin has been done by those of every religion) and #2 is an unprovable belief. 

[Katy]

I was raised in a church that had confirmation at the end of 8th grade. If a kid was past whatever the ceremony was that meant they were an adult in the eyes of church I would let them choose. 

[Harriet Vane]

Just now, prairiewindmomma said:

Right, let’s assume that religious and not religious families generally want most of the same things for their children (health, joy, connection to community, etc.) but religious families also often  believe that either:

1. Belief in religion makes them a better person than they would be without religion (morally) and/or 

2. Belief in religion is necessary for salvation

#1 isn’t true (arguably much sin has been done by those of every religion) and #2 is an unprovable belief. 

Your points are tangential to what the OP actually asked. The OP is not asking if Christianity is provable or true. 

For parents who do believe in God, the question of how to appropriately and lovingly parent a teen who does not want to participate in the belief system in which they have been raised feels like a Really Big Deal. The OP asked how other religious families have responded to that. It will not help or comfort the OP to simply say that their cherished beliefs and traditions and their whole idea of what is true in the universe can simply be tossed because other people don't believe in that stuff anyway. 

In my post, I responded as a person who believes in God and who has done my best to teach my children that the question of who God is IS central. That is a core value for me, and it is how I chose to raise my children. And I offered three different paths based on WHY the kid does not want to participate. 

 

 

[ktgrok]

I did not require my teen attend on a regular basis. I did ask/plead that, as a favor to me, they attend for Christmas Eve and Easter and Mother's Day. 

I would firs though talk with the teen, find out if there were legit reasons I didn't know about, if there was a different church or type of service or time of day that they would be interested in trying, etc. 

[prairiewindmomma]

45 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

Your points are tangential to what the OP actually asked. The OP is not asking if Christianity is provable or true. 

For parents who do believe in God, the question of how to appropriately and lovingly parent a teen who does not want to participate in the belief system in which they have been raised feels like a Really Big Deal. The OP asked how other religious families have responded to that. It will not help or comfort the OP to simply say that their cherished beliefs and traditions and their whole idea of what is true in the universe can simply be tossed because other people don't believe in that stuff anyway. 

In my post, I responded as a person who believes in God and who has done my best to teach my children that the question of who God is IS central. That is a core value for me, and it is how I chose to raise my children. And I offered three different paths based on WHY the kid does not want to participate. 

 

 

If you read my first post in this thread, I did mention that I parented kids in the church for 18 years before we left a few years ago.  I understand that it feels like a REALLY big deal. And I shared that now, on this side of things, I have had a different experience of evaluating those decisions. I think that is relevant. As I mentioned in my first post, I have not seen good outcomes from people who forced attendance.

As it was, my kids rarely expressed desires to not go. They went to early morning religious instruction five days a week, mid-week youth activities, the occasional Saturday activities, and Sunday services.  Of those kids, now that they can speak freely with us without fear of judgment, two profess that they never believed, a different one is gay (and did not feel safe to come out until well after we left), and one believes in a higher power, but thinks that organized religion is generally detrimental to faith.  They all tell me that they continued to attend with me despite disbelief, and that was damaging to them.

Tangential thoughts are a large part of what we post about on WTM. I think it is tangentially relevant to consider requiring a kid to participate in something that is a matter of faith. If you put together my orthodox Jewish neighbors, my Muslim neighbors, my evangelical neighbors, and my Buddhist neighbors and ask them what is required for salvation, they will not agree.  If there is one true path, then surely at least one of them is wrong in their beliefs.  Compelling physical attendance of a teen is not a small thing---if there is no room for polite disagreement as to questions of faith with someone who is the same size as you--then whatever is being used to compel is not a light tool. That degree of emotional manipulation causes harm.

I know a number of teens who were kicked out of their homes in their late teen years for not going to church, others who feel that the parenting they received damaged their relationships with their parents (ie parents were emotionally abusive), kids who were cut off from contact with siblings when they moved out and stopped attending, and adults who fake belief because they don't feel that they can be genuine with their parents (including my husband who has not told his parents we have left the church).  I think one would do well to weigh the consequences of the choices they make....even if they really believe salvation is on the line.  I believe God is a much more loving and patient parent than a lot of the parents I know from my church days.

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by prairiewindmomma

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, barnwife said:

 

Well, a person who chooses to be confirmed (in the Catholic faith) at the now common age (14-16ish), should understand that Confirmation is a committment to living out the Catholic faith. It's not a graduation (Great! That's done. Now I can stop attending Mass.). If one isn't willing to make that committment, they should not choose Confirmation.

Sadly, there is a lot of poor catechization out there, and many don't understand that.

I think that confirmation, at the age it’s usually done in our diocese, is like graduation in that it’s a handing over of responsibility to the young adult.  I don’t expect my kids to stop their faith journey, I expect them to move to the driver’s seat.  I think it’s likely that they will choose to attend and participate but how they participate will be up to them.  And if at some point the right choice for them is to stop participating at all, then I will allow that choice too.

[MercyA]

We require attendance at my church's Sunday School, at our weekly home Bible study with my parents, and at youth group on Wednesday night. 

We don't require attendance at youth group excursions (although she often chooses to attend), at camp, or at Sunday night Bible study. 

It's part of her education. We want her to learn about the teachings of Jesus and Scripture and about how the church works together as a body.

She believes in and follows Christ herself but is very disillusioned with the American conservative church due to their behavior during COVID. She attends Sunday School and youth group for two reasons only, 1. to see her friends and 2. because we require it.

That said, we often have lively discussions about what she's learned and heard at church. She generally seems to enjoy herself, although she'd rather be at home playing video games or reading. 

If her conscience rather than her preference told her she could not attend, we would listen to her and have a discussion about that. 

I'm hoping that when she is an adult she will find a church she loves with her own family. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by MercyA

[Harriet Vane]

19 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

If you read my first post in this thread, I did mention that I parented kids in the church for 18 years before we left a few years ago.  I understand that it feels like a REALLY big deal. And I shared that now, on this side of things, I have had a different experience of evaluating those decisions. I think that is relevant. As I mentioned in my first post, I have not seen good outcomes from people who forced attendance.

As it was, my kids rarely expressed desires to not go. They went to early morning religious instruction five days a week, mid-week youth activities, the occasional Saturday activities, and Sunday services.  Of those kids, now that they can speak freely with us without fear of judgment, two profess that they never believed, a different one is gay (and did not feel safe to come out until well after we left), and one believes in a higher power, but thinks that organized religion is generally detrimental to faith.  They all tell me that they continued to attend with me despite disbelief, and that was damaging to them.

Tangential thoughts are a large part of what we post about on WTM. I think it is tangentially relevant to consider requiring a kid to participate in something that is a matter of faith. If you put together my orthodox Jewish neighbors, my Muslim neighbors, my evangelical neighbors, and my Buddhist neighbors and ask them what is required for salvation, they will not agree.  If there is one true path, then surely at least one of them is wrong in their beliefs.  Compelling physical attendance of a teen is not a small thing---if there is no room for polite disagreement as to questions of faith with someone who is the same size as you--then whatever is being used to compel is not a light tool. That degree of emotional manipulation causes harm.

I know a number of teens who were kicked out of their homes in their late teen years for not going to church, others who feel that the parenting they received damaged their relationships with their parents (ie parents were emotionally abusive), kids who were cut off from contact with siblings when they moved out and stopped attending, and adults who fake belief because they don't feel that they can be genuine with their parents (including my husband who has not told his parents we have left the church).  I think one would do well to weigh the consequences of the choices they make....even if they really believe salvation is on the line.  I believe God is a much more loving and patient parent than a lot of the parents I know from my church days.

 

Did you read my post? Because I actually did NOT argue for forcing physical attendance. I argued that teens should NOT be compelled. Here it is, copied and pasted from earlier in the thread:

_____________________________________________________________

I see this as having three aspects:

--Motivation: If the teen simply prefers sleeping in (playing video games, reading, etc.) and has no serious philosophical issues, then that's not a valid reason to skip. Why? Because what a person believes about God is a central, driving life question and deserves attention. Silliness like sleeping or video games is not a good reason not to give time to this central, core relationship.

--Social: If the teen does not feel socially connected at church, then church feels awful. It just does. If this is the issue, then support the teen's autonomy to engage in a church where they feel they can have friends. I have done this path with my children and never regretted it. (My dd chose a church setting apart from the family that was a good fit for her for a time. My son did stay with the family, BUT my dh and I chose to switch and attend a church where ds had friends rather than trying to require him to build friendships in the place dh and I were. It all happened the way it did in the first few years after an interstate move.) When I was a teen, I was denied this path and I hated going to a church where I felt unwanted, unfriended.

--Philosophical: If the teen feels strongly that they cannot attend church because their beliefs do not match the parents' church, then I would see this as a process of supportive searching together. As such, the talking, reading, visiting other places, and talking, and talking, will take whatever path seems to work. I would not force church attendance, and I would focus on maintaining a loving and supportive relationship. The most important is to validate the thoughts and feelings and to try, as much as possible, to learn together and to keep talking. To continue emphasizing over and over that we as parents love our child, wherever they may choose to search.

__________________________________________________________________________

 

If a teen wants to skip church for sleep or silliness (as I said above), then I treat that exactly the same way as if they want to skip soccer practice or a piano lesson. The whim of that moment is not important enough to override their commitment to soccer. The whim of a moment is not important enough to override their investment in their spiritual faith and their relationship with God, which to a family who believes in God carries far more weight than soccer or whatever.

I specifically said I would NOT compel attendance if the teen is uncomfortable socially.

I specifically said I would NOT compel attendance for a teen who feels they do not believe in what is taught in that church environment, and that it is important to validate their thoughts and feelings and to express love no matter what the child chooses.

 

I am well aware that tangents are a part of the discussion here. The tangent I object to in this thread is the assertion that since there are many people who do not believe God is a central life question, then it should not be a big deal when a teen who has been raised in a religious home does not want to attend church. That's not what the OP asked. 

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, Frances said:

I’m a little confused by all of this. So you think a very young child can choose to make a commitment to live out the Catholic faith? I agree that no one should be forced to be confirmed, especially not teens, but most young children don’t actually have a real choice or a real understanding, it would be much like being baptized. Now if confirmation is actually bestowing the gifts of the Holy Spirit and not making a commitment to live out the Catholic faith, then confirming young children makes sense. But it doesn’t seem as though the various Dioceses in the US are in agreement about what it means.

Many people tell them that’s what confirmation is. But it is not what confirmation is. Confirmation completes the seal of baptism, which is why historically that is when it was given.  It does not matter if various diocese explain it that way or not. The RCC has not changed the definition of what confirmation actually is - the sealing of baptism with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Thus why I think it a tremendous disservice to an entire generation to have changed that and it’s also why more and more dioceses are restoring the previous order of the sacraments.

Those who raise the child and have the child baptized/confirmed take on the commitment to raise them in the faith.  Literally those present at the baptism/confirmation give an oath to renounce Satan and all his ways and raise the child in the Light of Christ.

We all have free will to choose or not choose to follow Christ.  If we permit it, the sacraments are gifts to strengthen us for all that may require of us.  What genuine of heart Catholic would ever NOT want that strengthening of spirit and body for themselves and anyone they love as soon as possible after birth?  What that baby/child chooses to do with that gift as they grow up? That is up to them.

I have given my children numerous gifts that they may never appreciate and may even deny are gifts at all as adults. The gift of married parents in a mostly healthy relationship. The gift of education, much as they may hate schooling at times.  The gift of health as best I can via medical care, clean home and good food.  The gift of love and interest in their lives. The gift of community and friendships and siblings.  The gift of pursuing interests and sharing in joys. And yes. The gift of Catholicism. 

They may choose to reject it all.

I’d rather give a gift and have it rejected than give no gift at all.

Especially when it’s a gift that will wait for all eternity to be reclaimed should they ever miss it one day. 

[KSera]

7 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Many people tell them that’s what confirmation is. But it is not what confirmation is. Confirmation completes the seal of baptism, which is why historically that is when it was given.  It does not matter if various diocese explain it that way or not. The RCC has not changed the definition of what confirmation actually is - the sealing of baptism with the gifts of the Holy Spirit.  Thus why I think it a tremendous disservice to an entire generation to have changed that and it’s also why more and more dioceses are restoring the previous order of the sacraments.

Those who raise the child and have the child baptized/confirmed take on the commitment to raise them in the faith.  Literally those present at the baptism/confirmation give an oath to renounce Satan and all his ways and raise the child in the Light of Christ.

We all have free will to choose or not choose to follow Christ.  If we permit it, the sacraments are gifts to strengthen us for all that may require of us.  What genuine of heart Catholic would ever NOT want that strengthening of spirit and body for themselves and anyone they love as soon as possible after birth?  What that baby/child chooses to do with that gift as they grow up? That is up to them.

I have given my children numerous gifts that they may never appreciate and may even deny are gifts at all as adults. The gift of married parents in a mostly healthy relationship. The gift of education, much as they may hate schooling at times.  The gift of health as best I can via medical care, clean home and good food.  The gift of love and interest in their lives. The gift of community and friendships and siblings.  The gift of pursuing interests and sharing in joys. And yes. The gift of Catholicism. 

They may choose to reject it all.

I’d rather give a gift and have it rejected than give no gift at all.

Especially when it’s a gift that will wait for all eternity to be reclaimed should they ever miss it one day. 

I have never heard about this form of Catholic belief of confirmation. I grew up with the understanding that confirmation is when a child decides to take on the faith as their own rather than just what their parents chose for them when they were baptized. Very interesting. To my mind, it seems not at all unlike the LDS practice of baptism for the dead, except it happens at the opposite end of the lifespan. 

[Terabith]

5 minutes ago, KSera said:

I have never heard about this form of Catholic belief of confirmation. I grew up with the understanding that confirmation is when a child decides to take on the faith as their own rather than just what their parents chose for them when they were baptized. Very interesting. To my mind, it seems not at all unlike the LDS practice of baptism for the dead, except it happens at the opposite end of the lifespan. 

That’s a very Protestant view of Confirmation.  Murphy is right about the historic and Catholic definition of Confirmation. 

[KungFuPanda]

7 hours ago, Storygirl said:

If you are a church-going, religious couple, have you at some point allowed your teens to choose not to attend? Why or why not?

 

I think if you force a person to attend a religious service, especially if you use guilt or shame to coerce them, that person may rightfully consider this spiritual abuse. Think through how your handling of this problem will affect your relationship with the adult your teen will be in a few short years. 

[Farrar]

It was never required of me as a teen and I'm glad. I never stopped attending through living at home, though I didn't go all the time. But also, sometimes it was sort of required when my mother was preaching or working.

It's not an issue in my house as we didn't raise the kids in a religious tradition. I mean, we flirted with some, but in the end, that's not how it worked out.

The people I know who are most bitter as adults about Christianity and the most divisive about it were nearly always forced to attend as teens, often when they had major disagreements. Given the role of white Christian nationalism in America right now and the growing number of non-church attenders and atheists, there's no way that sentiment isn't increasing in the future from the way I see it.

[KSera]

2 minutes ago, Terabith said:

That’s a very Protestant view of Confirmation.  Murphy is right about the historic and Catholic definition of Confirmation. 

I fully acknowledge my Catholic upbringing was pretty divorced from everything I’ve learned about Catholicism since leaving it 😉. 

[forty-two]

43 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Right, let’s assume that religious and not religious families generally want most of the same things for their children (health, joy, connection to community, etc.) but religious families also often  believe that either:

1. Belief in religion makes them a better person than they would be without religion (morally) and/or 

2. Belief in religion is necessary for salvation

#1 isn’t true (arguably much sin has been done by those of every religion) and #2 is an unprovable belief. 

I don't agree with your assumption, although I would agree that it's a common *non-religious* framing of the issue, to see religion as just a separable add-on to regular life ("regular life" being inherently secular for all).  For (at least some) religious, religious truths are truths about the regular, real world we all live in - and thus underlie every aspect of regular life.  It's a whole way of explaining life, the universe, and everything.  It leads to wanting different things, and wanting the same things in different ways and for different reasons.  And, vitally, it involves ordering life around the central problem of existence and how it can be solved or escaped. 

These things *matter*.  You wouldn't want your child to fall down a conspiracy hole and use falsehoods to explain the world - where it's not just "seeing and doing things differently", but seeing and doing things that are in fact false and do in fact cause harm.  And however you chose to deal with it, you probably would be actively involved in trying to guide them - because how your child decides in this *matters*.  And whatever problems your child was having that led them to that path, you would want to help solve them *without* them rejecting truth or embracing falsehoods.  That's what religion is - a (meant-to-be) true way to explain and respond to the world, with stakes that *matter*.

[forty-two]

We do require church attendance, but not as an official "rule" so much as it is just what we do.  (Also we do have a solid reason for *why* it's "what we do" - to receive God's gift of salvation through Word and Sacrament.)  And so far it's not been a problem - our teens are on board with going to church.  My parents and dh's parents did the same, likewise with no pushback from us, and all of us kids have stayed in church throughout college and adulthood.

I pray that our kids continue to believe and attend church (that God keeps us all in the faith is my most common prayer).  I don't know what I'd do about serious pushback, other than trying hard to address reasons and solve everything that can be solved without leaving church and the faith, but our kids refusing to go would grieve me tremendously.

Edited September 5, 2022 by forty-two

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

My oldest does not attend church and hasn’t since he was 9 or 10. We don’t force it, as my husband never attends church either.  DH was forced to, then attended as an adult for a few years to keep the peace, and has so many negative feelings towards church now that I will never ever force anyone to go. 
My oldest does choose to go to youth group and I encourage that.

I would love to attend church but right now I feel like it would create issues with my marriage due to how strongly my husband dislikes church(he still considers himself a Christian though). Our younger kids go with their grandparents and love it.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Mrs Tiggywinkle

[Frances]

31 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

I have given my children numerous gifts that they may never appreciate and may even deny are gifts at all as adults. The gift of married parents in a mostly healthy relationship. The gift of education, much as they may hate schooling at times.  The gift of health as best I can via medical care, clean home and good food.  The gift of love and interest in their lives. The gift of community and friendships and siblings.  The gift of pursuing interests and sharing in joys. And yes. The gift of Catholicism. 

They may choose to reject it all.

I’d rather give a gift and have it rejected than give no gift at all.

Especially when it’s a gift that will wait for all eternity to be reclaimed should they ever miss it one day. 

I feel similarly about the gifts my husband and I gave our son and most would be similar gifts. Before he was even born, we decided to give any children we would have the gift of not raising them in the Catholic faith. And every single day I am I thankful we made that decision, for I know without a doubt he would have experienced serious psychological damage had we embraced the faith as my parents did. Another child might have been fine and just been able to choose it or not as an adult without repercussions, as I did, but not him. We did have many, many conversations about religion and spirituality growing up and even attended a Methodist church together for many years. At any point growing up had he asked to explore any religion, we would have been happy to join him in that journey, just as my husband’s family did together when they left a conservative, evangelical Christian denomination.

[Murphy101]

25 minutes ago, KSera said:

I fully acknowledge my Catholic upbringing was pretty divorced from everything I’ve learned about Catholicism since leaving it 😉. 

And so what I see in this is an understanding that very possibly you left what you thought it was and are now learning it was not and is not.

So I will restate.
The Church never left you.
The Church does not take her gifts back no matter how much they aren’t appreciated or wanted.  The gifts remain.  Welcome home if ever you want to visit.🙂

[historically accurate]

We are no longer a church attending family, but we were, and we did not require attendance past about age 12. I was required to attend as a youth (until I went to boarding school at age 15), and DH was required to attend until he was 20 because he still lived at home. I no longer consider myself a Christian; DH still does. DH has not returned to church following covid, but I stopped attending a couple of years prior. Oldest did not attend past age 12, middle and youngest did til covid. I think DH and Youngest may return at some point. 

[Lecka]

I have one who does not want to go for philosophical reasons.

I don’t agree with his reasons and I do feel sad about it.

However I pray for him and I have hope he will change his mind when he’s older.

I am also someone whose husband was forced to go, and that is a factor.  But it’s much more that it feels like a sham to ask somebody to sit there while knowing they don’t agree and don’t want to be there.

I think it would be a weird message for me to send to him.  
 

Also it’s just something that used to be a huge source of contention, and I think he is old enough (and has been old enough for a couple of years now) that he doesn’t want to be there for reasons that are nothing about wanting to sleep late or play video games.

 

In addition for whatever reason he has never really enjoyed or connected with church and kids or youth activities.  He has had a handful of things when I thought “oh this is a good sign” but as he got older he was being a good sport and having good manners, he wasn’t having a change of heart or a change of mind.

 

Its a lot to ask that he would go and NOT say what he really thinks.  Like — I am not just asking him to go but he’s just sitting there.  He is sitting there and keeping his mouth shut so that he is not rude or offensive.  And it’s not even that he can’t say what he thinks — but it’s like, then he would have to have a conversation or debate as if he was there by choice and wanted to have that conversation or debate.  And it’s not the case.  
 

My two younger kids are not this way. They are way older than the age when all of this started being an issue with my older son.  They are just not this way at all.  
 

Edit:  ironically it is that he thinks about things and cares about things, that he doesn’t want to go and feel like it’s a misrepresentation of him, or like he can’t say what he thinks without being rude or offensive or difficult.  It’s because he cares that it bothers him.  If he didn’t care, I think he wouldn’t mind.  But he minds a lot.  But it will be a good way for him to be if he does attend church when he’s older, and I think he might.  He is a serious person in a lot of way.  

Edited September 5, 2022 by Lecka

[Lecka]

I’m also just in a place where I would be so in favor of keeping dialogue open and having good discussions.

But we have had good discussions, and he doesn’t change his mind.

We have gotten to a point that is not productive to keep having me bring it up.  He can feel like I’m intrusive, which I think is not good.

It is definitely something that became counter-productive in a way where it wasn’t going to do any good.  
 

 

[Lawyer&Mom]

We are Catholic. Not hugely devout, but we both come from Irish Catholic families where hugely devout isn’t really required.  My mom turned her back on the church and didn’t have me baptized,  figuring I could choose as an adult.  I resent this.  (It’s a hassle to be baptized as an adult!) So my big priorities before we had kids was 1) baptize them, 2) continue the tradition of Catholic school 3) First Communion.  Give them a faith tradition, which they could choose to follow in adulthood or not, but don’t make them start from scratch as adults. Well, turns out I’m raising an born atheist who doesn’t much appreciate my efforts.  We got through First Communion.  (Never underestimate the power of a veil and a fancy dress!).  It would be great if we could make it through confirmation, but I’m not holding my breath.  I actually think this kid might do better with church as a grown-up.  Her literalist bent doesn’t work well with the little-kid theology she gets at school.  I’d love to find her a High Church service with amazing music, rather than the suburban Catholic school parish we attend now.  But no, I’m not going to mandate anything, she’d bolt and never look back. 

[KSera]

46 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

And so what I see in this is an understanding that very possibly you left what you thought it was and are now learning it was not and is not.

So I will restate.
The Church never left you.
The Church does not take her gifts back no matter how much they aren’t appreciated or wanted.  The gifts remain.  Welcome home if ever you want to visit.🙂

See, I know you mean this in all kindness, but it doesn’t feel or come across that way. I didn’t leave God or Christianity, merely an expression of it that felt empty to me. I moved to a way of worship and understanding of Jesus that was much fuller and deeper than I ever had in the Catholic church. That’s not to say I don’t think other people can have just as deep and full experience (and some moreso) from within the contexts of the Catholic Church, but I haven’t turned my back on any gifts. I am certain God doesn’t feel I left him when I stopped being Catholic (I’m sure you’ll say I still am. I’m not though. I do not believe as the Catholic Church believes. It feels offensive for someone to insist you are a member of a religious faith you are not.)
 

I do feel curious now if you would appreciate a future LDS family member baptizing you into the Mormon faith after you die. Maybe you would, but I do feel curious because I see some analogues. 

[BlsdMama]

8 hours ago, scholastica said:

Nope. This is what we do. When they reach the age of majority they can make that decision. My parents let us not go and I lost my way for a few years before returning.
 

ETA: None of mine have expressed a desire to not go. 

This. 
 

In our family there are things we do, this is one of those. Can anyone force anyone to embrace beliefs as their own? Absolutely not. 

I’ll add that I was raised Catholic. I decided I did not want to be confirmed and when I voiced that, rather than address my very real concerns, I was told I’d be grounded until such point I decided to become confirmed. Forcing it did nothing to compel my love for the Catholic Church, but I recognize they thought they were doing the right thing. My parents were more about the What than the Why. But it did have the effect of doing one thing while believing another and hypocrisy is an ugly thing to foster. 
 

Another important piece of this is that we went about ten years without attending church. It was important to me then and not important to DH and I felt if I attended with kids and without him it would be divisive and not helpful to his spiritual walk. Our oldest two sought and started attending church before our family so obviously I’d prefer if each young adult very much wanted to attend. However, I believe there is much gained to hearing the Word of God. 

[Frances]

28 minutes ago, KSera said:

See, I know you mean this in all kindness, but it doesn’t feel or come across that way. I didn’t leave God or Christianity, merely an expression of it that felt empty to me. I moved to a way of worship and understanding of Jesus that was much fuller and deeper than I ever had in the Catholic church. That’s not to say I don’t think other people can have just as deep and full experience (and some moreso) from within the contexts of the Catholic Church, but I haven’t turned my back on any gifts. I am certain God doesn’t feel I left him when I stopped being Catholic (I’m sure you’ll say I still am. I’m not though. I do not believe as the Catholic Church believes. It feels offensive for someone to insist you are a member of a religious faith you are not.)
 

I do feel curious now if you would appreciate a future LDS family member baptizing you into the Mormon faith after you die. Maybe you would, but I do feel curious because I see some analogues. 

So much this. My very Catholic parents whose faith and practice of it I greatly admire, would never, ever talk to one of their children or anyone else who has left the Catholic Church that way. They would never, ever remind me that the Church still considers me Catholic because I was baptized. It’s basically an attempt at spiritual manipulation and is no different than many religious people of all stripes trying to control others with different beliefs through the political process. Regardless of the religion,  I believe dogmatic, self-righteous practitioners are potentially damaging to their children (and that includes mandating church attendance in teens with no exceptions for different beliefs or ideas) and most definitely a danger to society, as we’ve seen throughout history and especially in the last six years in the US.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

Oops….wrong thread 😬 I shouldn’t post when I’m this tired. Moving to the goal group now. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by 2ndGenHomeschooler

[KungFuPanda]

3 minutes ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

I’m still here. “Plodding” is a good way to describe my progress. My main focus in August was school prep. We start tomorrow and I just finished. Last year’s materials are cleared out, several boxes of books have found new homes, everything that’s staying has been cleaned up and reorganized. The planning and prep for next year is done and schedules are printed - mostly. I ran out of paper tonight. We start back tomorrow with half days, full days next week. Also this week, co-op and speech and debate clubs start back up and DD1 is giving her piano recital and we will “officially” graduate her. A little late but she needed the time and is taking a year off before deciding on future education plans. 
 

My goals and the action steps to achieve them have gotten more vague as the year has gone on. Still the same basic things - spending time outside, decluttering, reading, exercise - but in a much less specific way. I’ve already started to think ahead to 2023 goals. Mostly from the standpoint of what worked and didn’t work this in regards to goal setting, what things got in the way, and how can improve my chances of success next year. 
 

I’m not sure how to set my goals for September. It’s hard to say what my time will be like until I really get the new school year going. I’m going to go a week at a time I think and see how it goes. 
 

Week 1

Outside - 5 hours. The weather is finally cooling. August was a low hour month as it was simply too hot to spend much time outside. 

Reading - Choose a new book and read a little each day. It’ll probably be one of my kids’ literature books. 
 

Decluttering - Nothing for this week. It’ll be too busy. But I’m dropping my Saturday karate class so maybe I can plan to do some decluttering on Saturdays. 
 

Health/Exercise - Planning to start each school day with a walk so long as the weather cooperates. Also, more strongly encouraging exercise in my kids. We’ve all become too sedentary. 

What?

[maize]

1 hour ago, KSera said:

 

I do feel curious now if you would appreciate a future LDS family member baptizing you into the Mormon faith after you die. Maybe you would, but I do feel curious because I see some analogues. 

Are you seeing the confirmation of a young child as analogous to LDS baptism for the dead because the child is not old enough to understand and choose?

FWIW, from an actual LDS perspective, baptism for the dead is seen as OFFERING an ordinance to a person who exists as a being capable of choice in the spirit world. They still get to choose whether to accept or reject that ordinance.

We can't know what choice they make because we don't ordinarily have direct communication with the spirits of people who have died; we just try to perform the ordinances so that those people have the option of accepting them. Our understanding is that without ordinances performed in their name by someone on earth they have no option to receive them as spirits, so no opportunity for choice.

[maize]

48 minutes ago, KungFuPanda said:

What?

Probably accidentally posted in the wrong thread. That has happened to me before when I have been reading more than one thread!

[Murphy101]

2 hours ago, KSera said:

See, I know you mean this in all kindness, but it doesn’t feel or come across that way. I didn’t leave God or Christianity, merely an expression of it that felt empty to me. I moved to a way of worship and understanding of Jesus that was much fuller and deeper than I ever had in the Catholic church. That’s not to say I don’t think other people can have just as deep and full experience (and some moreso) from within the contexts of the Catholic Church, but I haven’t turned my back on any gifts. I am certain God doesn’t feel I left him when I stopped being Catholic (I’m sure you’ll say I still am. I’m not though. I do not believe as the Catholic Church believes. It feels offensive for someone to insist you are a member of a religious faith you are not.)
 

I do feel curious now if you would appreciate a future LDS family member baptizing you into the Mormon faith after you die. Maybe you would, but I do feel curious because I see some analogues. 

The thing is I’m not claiming anything but this:

If someone who was RC ever decides to return to the RCC, the RCC will happily welcome them home.

I’m not making a statement about you beyond that. I’m not presuming to do something to you at all, much less against your will.  I’m not manipulating you into anything.  The choice is entirely yours. It always was.

I see zero analogy to the death baptism of the LDS. 

But I’m moving on and away from this conversation since it’s offensive.

[J-rap]

It's hard to know exactly how I'd answer that...  Our kids are all older now and none asked to not attend church, so this was never an issue.  I myself never actually loved church much though, even as we attended it with our kids.  (Although my faith was always very important to me.)  So who knows, maybe if they asked me, I would have said, "Sure, I'll stay home with you!"  

(But seriously...) We were never tethered to a particular church, denomination, or church requirements (like confirmation, etc.).  It was about God, and finding people who seemed honest, humble, caring.   So, I hope that if one of our children suddenly didn't want to attend as a teen, we would have taken him seriously and talked about it together.  Assuming he had a good reason, perhaps we would have found an entirely different activity for awhile that would have helped us as a family to be able to better understand God and help others better and differently...  Like working at a homeless shelter or the local nursing home on a Sunday instead of going to church. 

(I do enjoy going to church now though, btw!  My dh and I have finally found one that's a great match for us. :))

 

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by J-rap

[Janeway]

20 hours ago, Storygirl said:

If you are a church-going, religious couple, have you at some point allowed your teens to choose not to attend? Why or why not?

 

I allowed them to not attend and I regret it. I should have taken church as seriously as I take school. Church is not just about the building and the other people there, it is about your family stopping down once a week and going to something together that is not all just fun and games. It is family time.

[Carrie12345]

I was a teen required to go to church (and be confirmed, which still seems insane to me. Lie? In church??? Mom also wanted me to lie and baptize my kids. I didn’t. I think that’s disrespectful. )
Church itself didn’t bother me much. 8am service 20+ minutes away did. 

[Scarlett]

The assumption that requiring teens to attend worship services is proof of authoritarian parenting is offensive. There was not one post that said, ‘yes we require that.  Our way or the highway, no discussion!!!’  
 

All of us surely require something of our children and teens. Requiring something you (general you) do not require (often because you do not believe/attend yourself) does not equal authoritarian parenting.

 

[Faith-manor]

30 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I was a teen required to go to church (and be confirmed, which still seems insane to me. Lie? In church??? Mom also wanted me to lie and baptize my kids. I didn’t. I think that’s disrespectful. )
Church itself didn’t bother me much. 8am service 20+ minutes away did. 

To be honest, I see this a lot among strict adherents...immense pressure if not demands for baptism, membership, etc. on their teens and adult offspring even if they clearly do not believe. It seems entirely antithetical to what the beliefs are on paper, especially for the public display of belief folks. Ugh. I am deconverted and my mother still thinks that if I am visiting her house, I should say grace. I finally said, "Why mom? If you truly believe what you believe, then you are asking me to perform a lie. I do not believe there is a god listening to prayers and intervening on human behalf. You do. You are asking me to break one of your own commandments, and using emotional manipulation to try to road me into it. How is that Christian?" I have since told her that if she continues, I will no longer eat any meals with her. It is so profoundly offensive. I still can't figure it out. Is trying to force other people to pray or act like they believe some sort of "fake it until you make it" kind of Christian mentality? I don't get it. She has backed down. I have tried for so long to be gracious with her. She is almost 79 now, a traumatized widow, and an elderly person with some issues from the long covid isolation. But enough was enough. I couldn't take it anymore. So ya, I have serious issues with folks who pressure their kids and relatives to pretend to go along with their beliefs in order to keep the peace or maintain the relationship.

[Tree Frog]

Dh and I disagreed on whether we should force our teens to attend church. One felt very strongly that the Baptist Church we were attending was where we belonged. The other felt that the teens weren't getting anything out of the services (Sunday school for teens, followed by the church service itself) and wanted to find a better fit for the entire family instead of one person. What happened was one parent stopped attending, so the teens still at home also stopped attending, then the other parent stopped attending. To be fair, the 2 teens left at home frequently were unable to make the morning service due to work or band requirements, so it didn't feel at the time like they were giving up church due to disagreements, though they were good excuses to get out of it. One now adult would like to attend, but can't due to career requirements, one is considering returning because they're lonely in a different city and there was a common bond at church, and the third is an atheist. Two of them saw a lot of hypocrisy even before Covid which was then compounded by Covid. 

I grew up in a household where my parents dropped me and my siblings off at Sunday school so they could work on their marriage. I don't remember my parents attending church during that time at all. It was a social hour, and didn't really include any religious training except prayer that I remember. I think that colored my expectation of church. Dh and I stepped away for many years, returning after out oldest was born and coincidentally enough leaving again when our kids were teens. 

[Carrie12345]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

To be honest, I see this a lot among strict adherents...immense pressure if not demands for baptism, membership, etc. on their teens and adult offspring even if they clearly do not believe. It seems entirely antithetical to what the beliefs are on paper, especially for the public display of belief folks. Ugh. I am deconverted and my mother still thinks that if I am visiting her house, I should say grace. I finally said, "Why mom? If you truly believe what you believe, then you are asking me to perform a lie. I do not believe there is a god listening to prayers and intervening on human behalf. You do. You are asking me to break one of your own commandments, and using emotional manipulation to try to road me into it. How is that Christian?" I have since told her that if she continues, I will no longer eat any meals with her. It is so profoundly offensive. I still can't figure it out. Is trying to force other people to pray or act like they believe some sort of "fake it until you make it" kind of Christian mentality? I don't get it. She has backed down. I have tried for so long to be gracious with her. She is almost 79 now, a traumatized widow, and an elderly person with some issues from the long covid isolation. But enough was enough. I couldn't take it anymore. So ya, I have serious issues with folks who pressure their kids and relatives to pretend to go along with their beliefs in order to keep the peace or maintain the relationship.

Right?!

For whatever it’s worth, my mom hasn’t attended more than one handful of times in 20+ years. (I’m 45, she’s 69.) She didn’t find a congregation she liked when she first moved. But it’s been over 2 decades in a major metropolitan area, so I call bs.   
Even my sister (not really a believer) takes her kids to a few celebrations in the general area. 

[Storygirl]

Thank you all for the discussion. I didn't post the question and run: I've been reading along, and I appreciate all of your thoughtful comments. I'm more interested in the general discussion than in advice for our particular circumstances -- which we have to sort out for ourselves --  so I'm refraining from posting details at this time. But I appreciate the conversation, so much. Feel free to continue!