Thinking beyond opinion

[BlsdMama]

... I’m so frustrated. It is not over thinking to analyze. I’ve become, over the years, pretty much apologetic for researching and analyzing. 
 

When did we, as a society, begin to disdain thinking and analyzing and instead praise “strong opinions” (aka brashness without regard) and action (impulsiveness without thought to recourse.)

I admit to struggling with impulsivity my entire life. I also was a “jump in and do” - which was great, because society praises these things. 
 

However, my inability to do, well, much of anything, lends itself to more analytic thought, weighing options, research. I told someone recently, in defense of presenting an alternative viewpoint, “I’m not against you. I’m saying, ‘Consider this.’”

I’m not (emphasis, not) standing over anyone’s shoulder saying, “Do it like this. No, that’s wrong.” 
 

But it seems to me few people even want to consider any additional information, validity of opposing viewpoints, etc.  So much so, that I find myself apologetic for proposing other thinking. 
 

Last night, there was a simple conversation on FB about how to homeschool high school. I didn’t make any appeal to experience like number of kids, years homeschooling, etc. Just said I look at the state flagship expectations as my starting point. Then I plan backwards from there to 9th grade so that I don’t close doors for my kids. It’s hard to look at a 12yo and adequately plan to prep them for life, so this gives a good starting point. Another came on and said community college is the way to go - nothing needed like a diploma or transcripts. He’s right. And it’s simpler. But it does close doors and it’s not the obvious answer. For example - my oldest. She commuted to university, got a full tuition plus more in scholarships IF she came in a freshman. She was a competitive student, but not crazy high stats. Transfer scholarships are fewer. I did not share our experience with our three graduates and current senior.  This resulted in his appeal to authority as a CC professor and howCC is a better discussion. Sigh. I have no dog in this fight. I don’t care where random stranger’s kid goes to school or how she preps  him. I just laid out alternatives. It was just a “Consider this...” deal. Oy. 
 

I’m going to be honest. It seems like my entire life is the same conversation over and over. So either I am truly doing something wrong, which has been my assumption for several years, this resulting in me being anxious about sharing thoughts or opinions in real life relationships OR people just want to make snap decisions and not be presented with alternatives. 
 

In all seriousness? I blame the board. I really do. Between this one and one other, I came to believe when people were making decisions, they earnestly spoke so as to receive input so as to make the best decision they could. The concept of exchanging ideas and experiences to do better... And yet in real life, it’s seen as opposition so often? 
 

i don’t think it’s presentation? I don’t tend to be forceful. I make and keep friends IRL easily. I have no idea but I’m pretty sick of apologizing for speaking. Thoughts? Input? Considerations?

[Carrie12345]

Just letting you know that I often feel the same!

[MercyA]

It's just the way the world is right now, unfortunately. You are not the one in the wrong.

[Moonhawk]

It's a cultural thing. I always thought it was interesting that our superheroes are big and strong, quick to action and react, but never have any actual plans to make things better. Our supervillians, on the other hand, alway have elaborate plots and well thought designs, and are usually intellectuals. How many superheroes listen to classical, vs the evil guy?

And I'm not saying that action is bad, or should be viewed bad, but we tend to view it as an either/or situation: you either think -or- you act. But when pitted against each other, we (Americans in particular, or that's all I can talk to as my experience) value acting over thinking. 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Moonhawk

[Katy]

I don’t think some people ever stopped caveman survival tactics of just getting behind the boldest, brashest, loudest jerk in the room. 

[BlsdMama]

4 minutes ago, Katy said:

I don’t think some people ever stopped caveman survival tactics of just getting behind the boldest, brashest, loudest jerk in the room. 

You know what’s weird about this? When I was young, I think I was the above. And people are very attracted to, “Follow me! I know what I’m doing!” Regardless if it’s true or right. 
 

Now that I think more and do less, it’s more likely to be discounted. Ironic, eh? I’m also more likely to admit there’s more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak, and people are drawn to a more forceful, loud, “My way is the right way...” Hmm  

 

[MEmama]

It’s not you, it’s not new and it’s not the US. Those are dishonest excuses.

Gently, if you having something to put out to the world, own it and stop apologizing. 

[BlsdMama]

2 minutes ago, MEmama said:

It’s not you, it’s not new and it’s not the US. Those are dishonest excuses.

Gently, if you having something to put out to the world, own it and stop apologizing. 

I might need that printed and framed. You’re speaking to my fears. Thank you. ♥️ 

[Jaybee]

I keep thinking this is the bubble of where we live right now (new-ish to us), but in reality, I know it is a lot broader than that (fb alone is enough to inform that). The inability to read nuance, the inability to try to understand a deeper or broader perspective, the inability to deeply think through something to consider what to accept and what to throw out...the inability to learn from someone even if you may never agree with them. I'm seeing that all over the place. It concerns me a lot in general. It concerns me even more in the churches.

And the writing part--I have been struggling with this myself. I am starting to work on my writing more, but the environment out there is so hostile (even if the topic is not), that I told dh I'm just not sure I'm up to jumping into the fray. I'm not trying to put a bunch of opinionated drivel out there. My purpose is not going to be to state strong ideas and be a well-known apologist for them. But the critical voices have become so strong these days that I am very tempted to just live in my little cave and take care of my (now) little family. I feel too vulnerable to live with the kind of criticisms I am seeing out there. But I don't want to die a useless coward, either.

[Jaybee]

20 minutes ago, MEmama said:

It’s not you, it’s not new and it’s not the US. Those are dishonest excuses.

Gently, if you having something to put out to the world, own it and stop apologizing. 

Why thank you! 🙂

I mean, those are encouraging words, and I do appreciate them, even though I'm not the OP.

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Jaybee

[Halftime Hope]

I'm so sorry.   

I went from a toxic office culture in which no one listened, to one in which people collaborate and listen, even though they might not see eye to eye.  That happened mid-week as I started a new job.  

I think I might start breathing again.  It is profoundly liberating.  

I hope you are able to find a place where you can breathe and think and share your thoughts and gifts.   

I think somehow our society has gone fundamentally off the rails:  thought is not a zero sum game. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2021 by Halftime Hope

[ktgrok]

I expect a bit of brash my way is the best way from say, 18-25 yr olds. That's normal but then I expect them to learn about life, make their own mistakes, and learn that things are not that black and white. To learn nuance. To learn to listen to others, and be open to new ideas. 

But some people don't make that shift and the current culture seems to confuse passion with truth. 

[BlsdMama]

27 minutes ago, Jaybee said:

I keep thinking this is the bubble of where we live right now (new-ish to us), but in reality, I know it is a lot broader than that (fb alone is enough to inform that). The inability to read nuance, the inability to try to understand a deeper or broader perspective, the inability to deeply think through something to consider what to accept and what to throw out...the inability to learn from someone even if you may never agree with them. I'm seeing that all over the place. It concerns me a lot in general. It concerns me even more in the churches.

And the writing part--I have been struggling with this myself. I am starting to work on my writing more, but the environment out there is so hostile (even if the topic is not), that I told dh I'm just not sure I'm up to jumping into the fray. I'm not trying to put a bunch of opinionated drivel out there. My purpose is not going to be to state strong ideas and be a well-known apologist for them. But the critical voices have become so strong these days that I am very tempted to just live in my little cave and take care of my (now) little family. I feel too vulnerable to live with the kind of criticisms I am seeing out there. But I don't want to die a useless coward, either.

This. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

58 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

... I’m so frustrated. It is not over thinking to analyze. I’ve become, over the years, pretty much apologetic for researching and analyzing. 
 

When did we, as a society, begin to disdain thinking and analyzing and instead praise “strong opinions” (aka brashness without regard) and action (impulsiveness without thought to recourse.)

I admit to struggling with impulsivity my entire life. I also was a “jump in and do” - which was great, because society praises these things. 
 

However, my inability to do, well, much of anything, lends itself to more analytic thought, weighing options, research. I told someone recently, in defense of presenting an alternative viewpoint, “I’m not against you. I’m saying, ‘Consider this.’”

I’m not (emphasis, not) standing over anyone’s shoulder saying, “Do it like this. No, that’s wrong.” 
 

But it seems to me few people even want to consider any additional information, validity of opposing viewpoints, etc.  So much so, that I find myself apologetic for proposing other thinking. 
 

Last night, there was a simple conversation on FB about how to homeschool high school. I didn’t make any appeal to experience like number of kids, years homeschooling, etc. Just said I look at the state flagship expectations as my starting point. Then I plan backwards from there to 9th grade so that I don’t close doors for my kids. It’s hard to look at a 12yo and adequately plan to prep them for life, so this gives a good starting point. Another came on and said community college is the way to go - nothing needed like a diploma or transcripts. He’s right. And it’s simpler. But it does close doors and it’s not the obvious answer. For example - my oldest. She commuted to university, got a full tuition plus more in scholarships IF she came in a freshman. She was a competitive student, but not crazy high stats. Transfer scholarships are fewer. I did not share our experience with our three graduates and current senior.  This resulted in his appeal to authority as a CC professor and howCC is a better discussion. Sigh. I have no dog in this fight. I don’t care where random stranger’s kid goes to school or how she preps  him. I just laid out alternatives. It was just a “Consider this...” deal. Oy. 
 

I’m going to be honest. It seems like my entire life is the same conversation over and over. So either I am truly doing something wrong, which has been my assumption for several years, this resulting in me being anxious about sharing thoughts or opinions in real life relationships OR people just want to make snap decisions and not be presented with alternatives. 
 

In all seriousness? I blame the board. I really do. Between this one and one other, I came to believe when people were making decisions, they earnestly spoke so as to receive input so as to make the best decision they could. The concept of exchanging ideas and experiences to do better... And yet in real life, it’s seen as opposition so often? 
 

i don’t think it’s presentation? I don’t tend to be forceful. I make and keep friends IRL easily. I have no idea but I’m pretty sick of apologizing for speaking. Thoughts? Input? Considerations?

I agree with you. 

I do want to point out though that the community college professor does have a dog in this fight.  Community colleges are really struggling right now due to the lack of international students (at least in our area where a very large demographic of their students are from overseas).  So of course he's going to urge people to go to community college so that his classes aren't cancelled. 

I don't think that there would have been anything wrong with you sharing your "credentials" as someone who has taught and graduated so many kids who have college experience.  That's valuable especially when you are communicating to other homeschoolers. 

[catz]

I personally think there is nothing wrong with framing something with your own experience. Which is different than being apologetic.  I also think there is nothing wrong with calling out someone else on their black and white thinking.  Being able to see shades of grey is mature thinking.   If someone else is attracted to the loudest voice on a topic, that's not on you either.  You are under no obligation to save the world from themselves.  I've actually unfollowed a lot of homeschool boards because of blind leading the blind posting driving me nuts. 

When we are talking about something like transitioning a homeschooler to college, there really is no one size fits all.  DE might be great for some kids, relying on test scores for scholarships might be great for another, for some families throwing out a broad net of college applications is a good idea,  etc etc etc.  When I've talked to people about it, I usually say figure out finances first.  What  you can afford vs. what type of FA/scholarships your student might qualify for vs. trying hard to minimize undergraduate loans for your student vs. options available in your area. The 4 year experience might be amazing but in no way do I think it is worth years of crippling loans if a 2-2 plan might make more sense for someone's finances.   Like the county live in has free 2 years CC for qualifying families.  We also get 2 free years DE for qualifying kids.  Which was a great set up for my oldest.  I actually delayed my late birthday kid this year so she can take advantage and hopefully start DE in the fall.  You have to calculate stuff like that which can be very geographically dependent.   I also think if your homeschooler wants a path other than CC, you should have some test scores and outside classes in place.   Some families/kids just don't have the band width to do that and it's better to just know that upfront and have that path laid before you.  Not every kid is successful in a 4 year old, live away situation either  out of the gate.   I think my son's college roommate last year threw thousands in loans down the drain (ETA for clarity - in a college that has an average ACT of about 30 for acceptance - it's not just all about academic readiness).  

Edited January 30, 2021 by FuzzyCatz

[BlsdMama]

17 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

I hope you are able to find a place where you can breathe and think and share your thoughts and gifts.  

 

 

Really thinking on what @MEmama said. I think I’ve retreated to some large degree searching for that space rather than standing my ground. Why? Maybe I’ve come to expect the world to be like some kind of cheerleading community? “Rah! Rah! You are doing great.” I don’t know when that happened, but I’ve grown to seek validation, in some ways, while understanding I shouldn’t. It’s a denial of sorts, an excuse. I speak ONLY for me. What she said really rings true to me this morning.... I’m so grateful for those words. 
 

And, @Halftime Hope, thank you for your kind and understanding words.

[MEmama]

6 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

I personally think there is nothing wrong with framing something with your own experience.

I agree and think it might actually be the *best* way to get us to really hear each other. 
 

I'm much more likely to hear someone’s words and ruminate on them even when they express the polar opposite of my own beliefs if they are speaking their truth. Doesn’t mean I have to agree, but adding their experiences to my own gives me a broader understanding of how we each come to our conclusions.

Of course, the dialogue must be in good faith, and that’s where I think there can a irreconcilable disconnect. 

[Katy]

54 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

You know what’s weird about this? When I was young, I think I was the above. And people are very attracted to, “Follow me! I know what I’m doing!” Regardless if it’s true or right. 
 

Now that I think more and do less, it’s more likely to be discounted. Ironic, eh? I’m also more likely to admit there’s more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak, and people are drawn to a more forceful, loud, “My way is the right way...” Hmm  

 

Almost everyone was at some level.  It’s what makes the mean girls in third grade. It’s what makes jocks popular in high school. It’s what made That new supreme court justice get away with rape. It’s what makes pickup artist techniques sometimes successful. While the better angels of our nature let us pretend we can rise above it, and objectively things are improving by almost every measure, the lizard portion of our brain that fights for survival above all else is what controls our emotions. 

[Bambam]

I've seen a big drift on FB away from thinking or logically considering things. Any FB homeschool group - typical post - math curriculum recommendations for x grade: Answers - XYZ, or ABC-My kids LOVE it!. There is no thought or info in the answers, just a listing of what they use. No info about good points/bad points/where it excels/where it lacks/what type of student it is good for/etc.  Like choosing a math curriculum should be based on popularity! (Huge heaps of scorn!)

People do not seem to be interested in spiral vs. mastery nor if the geometry is proof-heavy or not nor if the pages are crowded with little white space to work which is overwhelming to some kids. 



 

[Hillcottagemom]

The other issue that muddies the waters is that I've seen many people who do take the time to do their research come out with conspiracy theories and pseudoscience. So it also seems to be an issue of not taking the time to verify information/be discerning. I love the advice given in this thread. 

[Carol in Cal.]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

You know what’s weird about this? When I was young, I think I was the above. And people are very attracted to, “Follow me! I know what I’m doing!” Regardless if it’s true or right. 
 

Now that I think more and do less, it’s more likely to be discounted. Ironic, eh? I’m also more likely to admit there’s more than one way to skin a cat, so to speak, and people are drawn to a more forceful, loud, “My way is the right way...” Hmm  

 

Well, maybe you need to be more brash in how you express yourself now!  Because now you actually have something great to share!  🙂.  (Kidding, really.  It’s funny though.)

[Lori D.]

@BlsdMama: Actually, that sounds like a very civilized conversation for FB: you presented your method (your opinion) and why, and then someone else presented a different method (opinion) and why. No name calling, no flaming, no "you're wrong I'm right." That's a good thing, when people reading that FB thread can see there are different approaches for different goals.

Gently, maybe you're taking on more than need be here? What the readers of that FB thread decide is up to them. It's not your job to convince or convert them. 😉 You've done your part--and a great job of it too!--of explaining a solid method and why. You're not responsible beyond that. It's really okay to say this method worked great for us, and why, and move on. 😉

JMO: It is super kind of you to take the time to help out others on FB with your experiences, ideas, and thoughts. I know it is benefitting others, even if they aren't speaking up to thank you! 
 

35 minutes ago, Bambam said:

...Any FB homeschool group - typical post - math curriculum recommendations for x grade: Answers - XYZ, or ABC-My kids LOVE it!. There is no thought or info in the answers, just a listing of what they use. No info about good points/bad points/where it excels/where it lacks/what type of student it is good for/etc...

Actually, that's been a lot of what I see on these boards for most of the 20 years I've been participating here. 😉 

Obviously not everyone does that, but so many times I see 1/2 to 2/3 of the responses in a thread just say: "We use this and love it!" -- and don't take into consideration what the OP's *actual stated needs* are, to be able to suggest something that might actually match -- and explain *why* that might be a match. Or at least take a moment to explain how "the program they love" works, and what pros/cons have been with their different children.

Edited January 30, 2021 by Lori D.

[BusyMom5]

Please use your experience to qualify your answers!  I know when I'm asking a question- any type question - I prefer to hear someone's qualifications and experience so that I know how to weight their response.   I have read so much from the college board on here!  It prepared me to get my kids through high school and into college.  I also like when someone describes the type kid, bc not every kid has the same path.  It is not bragging to say "I have graduated 3 kids from homeschool and this is what I learned or suggest ..."   I cannot thank all of you who have shared enough!  My oldest is a Senior, so I'm depending on good advice and experience. 

I am on a few FB groups,  and its mostly surface answers.   When asking a question,  rarely does anyone give specifics about learning differences, why one program over another, etc.  If I'm considering changing my math program,  I want to explain what is and isn't working- and hear from other who have had similar issues and solved them.  

I don't know that this is new, really.  I think its magnified by social media.  The louder voices are fed,  and become even louder.  My DH and I are in our 40s, been married 20+ years.  I feel we are semi-qualified to give marriage advice- but we don't.  Maybe if a close friend asked, and even then it would be limited.  I see 20- something who have been married 5 years give marriage advice!  Drives me nuts!  Same for parenting advice.  I've got 6 kids, but I know that there are so many differences,  I'm hesitant to give Blanket advice for anything!  If you don't have a kid over 10, how do you know your parenting style is working?  I would give advice of things to try,  if asked, but I'm not going to tell everyone how to raise their kids, and I'm going to look at the parenting of young adults I like, and ask their parents to get advice!  I want to see the real product, lol!   

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

I agree with you. 

I do want to point out though that the community college professor does have a dog in this fight.  Community colleges are really struggling right now due to the lack of international students (at least in our area where a very large demographic of their students are from overseas).  So of course he's going to urge people to go to community college so that his classes aren't cancelled. 

I don't think that there would have been anything wrong with you sharing your "credentials" as someone who has taught and graduated so many kids who have college experience.  That's valuable especially when you are communicating to other homeschoolers. 

Oh that is really interesting.  Probably because you live in the Greater Seattle area, right?  I don't think our community colleges are suffering since as far as I know, we don't have many international students at them at all.  My dd2's private liberal arts higher ranked college had a number of international students but not that many.  OTOH,  I know that some private liberal arts colleges actually depended on their international students so I wonder how they are doing.

[Halftime Hope]

re community college... I think @BlsdMama might go back to the thread and make a second point, should she be feeling scrappy today.  This man is completely overlooking the fact that community college is for adults, not for children. 

We were very selective in the courses we allowed our young teens to take at CC or even at the local state university, because kids are mixed in with adults, and frankly, kids are not fully formed in their ability to think critically.  Ds1 took an 8AM macroeconomics class at CC when he was 15.5, and it was fine. But when we went to do a couple of errands on campus during the semester, the pot crowd was out in the quad by 11AM, just like they had been when I first took him to advising and registration, as he was not driving yet.  

We also cherry-picked professors based on Rate My Professor and a similar platform, which we found to be very helpful for the CC.  (Not so much at university.)

I'm not a fan of substituting CC for the last two years of homeschooling the way some people are.  It's a poor substitute for a well-developed high school program, as parents have no input regarding the quality of teachers, the curricula, or of the peer group.  

Edited January 30, 2021 by Halftime Hope

[TravelingChris]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

Really thinking on what @MEmama said. I think I’ve retreated to some large degree searching for that space rather than standing my ground. Why? Maybe I’ve come to expect the world to be like some kind of cheerleading community? “Rah! Rah! You are doing great.” I don’t know when that happened, but I’ve grown to seek validation, in some ways, while understanding I shouldn’t. It’s a denial of sorts, an excuse. I speak ONLY for me. What she said really rings true to me this morning.... I’m so grateful for those words. 
 

And, @Halftime Hope, thank you for your kind and understanding words.

Kelly, I really understand you and have had similar experiences.  I am on a lot of Facebook groups - many to do with my varied chronic illnesses and some that are interest based.  Obviously, I have had negative reactions to some posts- like some people are truly negative when I say that diets have had no effect on my illnesses or that CBD didn't help my pain or that I use a biologic or whatever.  I am not saying diet won't help you or CBD won't help you or you have to go on biologic.  There are others who actually say the part about biologics better than me- they were invented too late for much of my damage and weren't offered to me until about 20 years after they started being used.  But everyone gets to choose how they live their life and I am not in charge of them- I offer my experience and my research, and they or others can decide.  I think I probably have thicker skin than you but I get it. 

Many hugs.  And yes, as we get more disabled, we tend to live more online, I have found.

[catz]

25 minutes ago, Halftime Hope said:

 

I'm not a fan of substituting CC for the last two years of homeschooling the way some people are.  It's a poor substitute for a well-developed high school program, as parents have no input regarding the quality of teachers, the curricula, or of the peer group.  

Well again with this I say YMMV.  We are in a major metro and have access to probably 6 community colleges.  My kid had CC teachers that were teaching adjunct at a big 10 university or a well rated competitive LAC.  Not that every teacher was a dream, we used rate my prof too with good results.  My kid is at a top 15 public now and still speaks back to some of his CC teachers being better or more passionate.  Those teaching jobs are highly competitive in our area.  His CC classes in general far exceeded my expectations.

We did use a mix of CC and other sources his last 2 years leaning more to the CC.  He also did some of his classes remotely which not every young student is ready for.   And I'm glad our state is pretty hard line with only allowing juniors and seniors access.   I do think there is more than academic readiness.  But for this kid who was college ready in some ways in middle school, it was a great stepping stone and he had excellent results with his college application process.  I'm not a big fan of cheating kids years of childhood unless they are pulling a parent along down that road and this kid is a little socially quirky anyway.  It did require careful planning.  We filled high school transcript holes with those classes and he was not shooting for an AA/degree program.  I do know kids who raced through that AA and completely changed directions though, so I do think you should be careful what you're willing to pay for. DE is free here for qualified students.   That AA  might be completely appropriate for another student.   

[Kassia]

43 minutes ago, FuzzyCatz said:

 we used rate my prof too with good results.  My kid is at a top 15 public now and still speaks back to some of his CC teachers being better or more passionate.  Those teaching jobs are highly competitive in our area.  His CC classes in general far exceeded my expectations.

 

My kids attended a small CC during high school and many of the professors there were absolutely amazing in their teaching and dedication to their students and teaching.  Certainly not all, but it was a great experience for my kids and they got a really good education there and were well prepared for college.  We agree that many of the CC instructors are better than what we have found at the public universities my kids went on to attend.  

 

 

[Farrar]

For most people, simple, straightforward, easy answers are always going to be the most successful in a court of ideas like FB. So "___ is the BEST option" will nearly always get a lot more attention, thanks, and traction than "_____, _____, and _____ are all good starting places to consider" or "here are some questions to ask yourself about your goals..." or what have you.

I also find it pretty frustrating at times, but I try not to take it personally. If someone says how should I homeschool, and I say here's a couple of things to consider, and they go with the chorus of people chanting "Acellus!" at the top of their voices... I mean, on some level, they deserve what they got.

[BlsdMama]

6 hours ago, Lori D. said:

@BlsdMama: Actually, that sounds like a very civilized conversation for FB: you presented your method (your opinion) and why, and then someone else presented a different method (opinion) and why. No name calling, no flaming, no "you're wrong I'm right." That's a good thing, when people reading that FB thread can see there are different approaches for different goals.

Gently, maybe you're taking on more than need be here? What the readers of that FB thread decide is up to them. It's not your job to convince or convert them. 😉 You've done your part--and a great job of it too!--of explaining a solid method and why. You're not responsible beyond that. It's really okay to say this method worked great for us, and why, and move on. 😉

JMO: It is super kind of you to take the time to help out others on FB with your experiences, ideas, and thoughts. I know it is benefitting others, even if they aren't speaking up to thank you! 
 

Actually, that's been a lot of what I see on these boards for most of the 20 years I've been participating here. 😉 

Obviously not everyone does that, but so many times I see 1/2 to 2/3 of the responses in a thread just say: "We use this and love it!" -- and don't take into consideration what the OP's *actual stated needs* are, to be able to suggest something that might actually match -- and explain *why* that might be a match. Or at least take a moment to explain how "the program they love" works, and what pros/cons have been with their different children.

@Lori D. - I don’t know that I’m taking on too much. It’s meant to be a local moms helping moms board. This person happens to be male and assertive. In this particular case there was an appeal to authority and I opted out of the tennis match it appeared it might become. It was frustrating but okay... The greater issue came an hour later with a disagreement in my own home, and at that point, I wanted to bang my head on the wall. I then felt reactive and a little passive aggressive rather than proactive. It wasn’t a single scenario, but rather the stacking that made me feel frustrated. 

The fuller story is that I am feeling very compelled to write. However, my family grew up traditionally, giving deference to authority. When I chose an alternative life, homeschooling, having many children, moving far away, making less common children, I did so unapologetically. I was told, way more than once that I wasn’t an expert and didn’t know better than everyone else. Now that I’m hemming and hawing to avoid writing, I think I’ve gotten into questioning my own self.

Am I an expert? What gives me the right to pretend I know what I know when I recognize so many have other experiences? Can I really write on my experience with ALS  when my disease course is so unusual in its presentation? And, if I’m truly open and vulnerable? I haven’t made it to the end of this yet. How does one write a story of perseverance and what one has learned when you haven’t made it through the toughest part? 
 

Yeah... lol, it’s not so much about the FB post. Just a general unloading of frustration and fear about putting yourself out there only to have your experience discounted and minimized while the other person loudly proclaims to know what they know. 
TMI?

 

5 hours ago, Halftime Hope said:

re community college... I think @BlsdMama might go back to the thread and make a second point, should she be feeling scrappy today.  This man is completely overlooking the fact that community college is for adults, not for children. 

We were very selective in the courses we allowed our young teens to take at CC or even at the local state university, because kids are mixed in with adults, and frankly, kids are not fully formed in their ability to think critically.  Ds1 took an 8AM macroeconomics class at CC when he was 15.5, and it was fine. But when we went to do a couple of errands on campus during the semester, the pot crowd was out in the quad by 11AM, just like they had been when I first took him to advising and registration, as he was not driving yet.  

We also cherry-picked professors based on Rate My Professor and a similar platform, which we found to be very helpful for the CC.  (Not so much at university.)

I'm not a fan of substituting CC for the last two years of homeschooling the way some people are.  It's a poor substitute for a well-developed high school program, as parents have no input regarding the quality of teachers, the curricula, or of the peer group.  

I am actually on the opposing end of that discussion, ironically. My kids have used the CC their junior and senior year heavily. Now, keep in mind, I’m in Iowa - even our cities are more “small town” than most states’ small towns. The CC of which he speaks? I graduated from there just a few years ago. Three of mine have taken courses there in high school. I truly enjoyed my experience and I think we’ll if it. However, choosing a college isn’t a one size fits all option. A broad statement like he made, “They’re less expensive, better for homeschool students to acclimate...” may generally be true, but not always. My 17yo started taking classes at the CC when she was 15. It’s been an outstanding experience, though she was on campus with an older sister or taking online classes. We used this time as a transition - how to juggle time, how to read a syllabus, how to communicate well with a professor, understanding class expectations. 

5 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

 

 But everyone gets to choose how they live their life and I am not in charge of them- I offer my experience and my research, and they or others can decide.  I think I probably have thicker skin than you but I get it. 

Many hugs.  And yes, as we get more disabled, we tend to live more online, I have found.

I find I am more in my head than anywhere. There’s something about living a life with a terminal diagnosis, having to keep the end in mind while still trying to truly live, I think, that makes one more introspective? And it comes with a drive to help as much as I can? But physical ability is so limited... that listening and responding carefully is what’s left. So I think, maybe, I’m more invested than I would have otherwise been? That when offering alternatives to someone that doesn’t have eyes to see, that the disregard feels a little closer to home?

Obviously, at this point you see this isn’t so much about an online discussion. That was an example. It’s a far bigger overall picture. I’ve attempted to have that conversation here - “I’m not opposing you. I’m saying, “Consider these additional or alternative thoughts...” And it feels like I’m having that same conversation a lot these days. So much so, that it leaves me wondering when to speak up, if it’s worth it, or why people say, “What do you think?” when they actually only want to hear their own thoughts echo.

 

 

[Hillcottagemom]

9 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

@Lori D. - I don’t know that I’m taking on too much. It’s meant to be a local moms helping moms board. This person happens to be male and assertive. In this particular case there was an appeal to authority and I opted out of the tennis match it appeared it might become. It was frustrating but okay... The greater issue came an hour later with a disagreement in my own home, and at that point, I wanted to bang my head on the wall. I then felt reactive and a little passive aggressive rather than proactive. It wasn’t a single scenario, but rather the stacking that made me feel frustrated. 

The fuller story is that I am feeling very compelled to write. However, my family grew up traditionally, giving deference to authority. When I chose an alternative life, homeschooling, having many children, moving far away, making less common children, I did so unapologetically. I was told, way more than once that I wasn’t an expert and didn’t know better than everyone else. Now that I’m hemming and hawing to avoid writing, I think I’ve gotten into questioning my own self.

Am I an expert? What gives me the right to pretend I know what I know when I recognize so many have other experiences? Can I really write on my experience with ALS  when my disease course is so unusual in its presentation? And, if I’m truly open and vulnerable? I haven’t made it to the end of this yet. How does one write a story of perseverance and what one has learned when you haven’t made it through the toughest part? 
 

Yeah... lol, it’s not so much about the FB post. Just a general unloading of frustration and fear about putting yourself out there only to have your experience discounted and minimized while the other person loudly proclaims to know what they know. 
TMI?

 

I am actually on the opposing end of that discussion, ironically. My kids have used the CC their junior and senior year heavily. Now, keep in mind, I’m in Iowa - even our cities are more “small town” than most states’ small towns. The CC of which he speaks? I graduated from there just a few years ago. Three of mine have taken courses there in high school. I truly enjoyed my experience and I think we’ll if it. However, choosing a college isn’t a one size fits all option. A broad statement like he made, “They’re less expensive, better for homeschool students to acclimate...” may generally be true, but not always. My 17yo started taking classes at the CC when she was 15. It’s been an outstanding experience, though she was on campus with an older sister or taking online classes. We used this time as a transition - how to juggle time, how to read a syllabus, how to communicate well with a professor, understanding class expectations. 

I find I am more in my head than anywhere. There’s something about living a life with a terminal diagnosis, having to keep the end in mind while still trying to truly live, I think, that makes one more introspective? And it comes with a drive to help as much as I can? But physical ability is so limited... that listening and responding carefully is what’s left. So I think, maybe, I’m more invested than I would have otherwise been? That when offering alternatives to someone that doesn’t have eyes to see, that the disregard feels a little closer to home?

Obviously, at this point you see this isn’t so much about an online discussion. That was an example. It’s a far bigger overall picture. I’ve attempted to have that conversation here - “I’m not opposing you. I’m saying, “Consider these additional or alternative thoughts...” And it feels like I’m having that same conversation a lot these days. So much so, that it leaves me wondering when to speak up, if it’s worth it, or why people say, “What do you think?” when they actually only want to hear their own thoughts echo.

 

 

Thank you for sharing and I wish there was a care or hug reaction. I know you weren't referring to your interactions on this board, but as someone who lurked here for years, I have to tell you that the thoughtful discussions you and others had here informed what I did with my own kids and let me know I wasnt alone with special needs, giftedness, and a desire for a different kind of life. The people who speak loudest aren't the only ones who are listening in. 

I'd also like to share that I started writing novels and publishing them on Amazon during the pandemic. It was scary. Who did I think I was? I knew they weren't marvelous works of literature, but they made me happy and I heard from others who said that they made them happy during a difficult time too. I put a lot of myself out there and in the end I'm glad I did it. It's certainly different and more personal to share your own story, especially when it involves your health. In my experience, though, your story could touch another person, let them know they're not alone, or give them the courage to tell their own story. Best wishes to you.

[Ottakee]

A friend and I were talking about something similar today.  I only get to see her every few months now as she moved 2 hours away and is a doctor....during COVID so working lots extra.

We both crave some honest discussions and debates where people will listen and reason and consider other ideas.    Not to change someone's ideas but give them different perspectives to consider.

That is hard to find, and sadly even harder to find in the past year.

[Happy2BaMom]

I hear you. I (just today) quit one of the very few FB pages I participate in, a group I heretofore had thought was a good, thoughtful philosophical fit. I posted something that triggered a few people in the group (it wasn't anything political or religious, it was something I found helpful, which I said....and one of the points of the group is to 'go deeper' and find common ground when we disagree), but a few people really came unglued. Even that I didn't mind (everyone is entitled to their own opinion...which I also stated), but then they made it personal. The last straw was the poster who said I was "really bad" for even thinking that the info I posted could be considered neutral or useful (their main complaint? that the word "adolesent" was used as a descriptor for a group of actions often taken by people in certain circumstances).

I deleted the post & left the group. Somehow being called a "really bad" person for posting what I thought was, at most, somewhat provocative (meaning, worthwhile thinking about) just flipped me. I'm so done with being on the receiving end of the Melting Snowflake, an ever-present persona in today's society. 

No one's listening anymore. To anything. And what conscientious, sincere person wants to risk putting their thoughts out there in that kind of hostile, toxic enviroment?

It's a very lonely time in our society.  😑

 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Happy2BaMom

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, BlsdMama said:

@Lori D. - I don’t know that I’m taking on too much. It’s meant to be a local moms helping moms board. This person happens to be male and assertive. In this particular case there was an appeal to authority and I opted out of the tennis match it appeared it might become. It was frustrating but okay... The greater issue came an hour later with a disagreement in my own home, and at that point, I wanted to bang my head on the wall. I then felt reactive and a little passive aggressive rather than proactive. It wasn’t a single scenario, but rather the stacking that made me feel frustrated. 

The fuller story is that I am feeling very compelled to write. However, my family grew up traditionally, giving deference to authority. When I chose an alternative life, homeschooling, having many children, moving far away, making less common children, I did so unapologetically. I was told, way more than once that I wasn’t an expert and didn’t know better than everyone else. Now that I’m hemming and hawing to avoid writing, I think I’ve gotten into questioning my own self.

 

 

 

Obviously, at this point you see this isn’t so much about an online discussion. That was an example. It’s a far bigger overall picture. I’ve attempted to have that conversation here - “I’m not opposing you. I’m saying, “Consider these additional or alternative thoughts...” And it feels like I’m having that same conversation a lot these days. So much so, that it leaves me wondering when to speak up, if it’s worth it, or why people say, “What do you think?” when they actually only want to hear their own thoughts echo.

 

 

I would encourage you to write your story. We all have a story. Put your pen to paper (fingers to keyboard 🙂 ) and share yours. God gave you your own individual story for a reason and if you feel that you should share it, go for it. 

I;ve had similar feelings and thoughts about my own writing. I started writing a bible study on the Fruits of the Spirit and the self doubt really began to fly. I kept hearing though, through various messages (blog posts I'd read, podcasts I'd hear, sermons even) to tell my story. So I did. I have no idea where it'll go. It may just become something that I share with friends and family. It may become a book. I'm waiting for God to tell me where it'll go. But I have to tell the story before I can do it.

I wish my mom had written down her story before she died. I would love to read it. The few pieces that I have with her "voice" (a few journal entries and some letters) I read and re-read. I think you need to do this, even if it's just for yourself and your kids, but I bet the larger world will resonate with your story as well.

[EKS]

10 hours ago, BlsdMama said:

When did we, as a society, begin to disdain thinking and analyzing and instead praise “strong opinions” (aka brashness without regard) and action (impulsiveness without thought to recourse.)

When we started teaching "critical thinking."  Seriously.  I'm certain that the vast majority of students come away from critical thinking "lessons" with the idea that critical thinking equals having an opinion, any opinion.  

[Murphy101]

I try to lay it all out and then discuss from there.  If I decide to bother at all anymore. 
 

there are options 

a b and c

they each have these pros and cons

someone might respond that no that’s not how they view it. And that’s fine. Maybe I learn something new. Or maybe I find they are full of crap. 50/50 odds. 
 

as for the community college suffering during pandemic bc of a lack of international students. That is very very VERY not the case for the ones in my state. They might be suffering but that isn’t why here. Though I do not think they are suffering here. 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Murphy101

[Amy in NH]

Commiserating.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I think most of us have some sort of authority to have an opinion - even if it's just an opinion on our own experience.  So my experience homeschooling two children K - 12 gives me some opinions even if I acknowledge that my homeschooling experience is limited to those two children.  I can add to that my experience teaching in private and public schools and tutoring.  That still doesn't make me the guru on all teaching but it does give me some experiences to share and some opinions based on those experiences and the research that I've done over the years.  A lot of my teaching tips and opinions work in a wide variety of situations but many are based on my particular constellation of gifts, interests, personality and of course, the make-up of the particular classes that I've taught. 

I have my own journey of 30 plus years of chronic pain and illness.  There are many similarities between my journey and others with chronic illness but my journey is also unique as well since no one has exactly the same experiences over time.  So I can share my journey  while acknowledging that some of what I've learned might help others but some of it might just not fit that person's own unique circumstances.  As an aside, the longer I've had chronic pain and illness, the less dogmatic I have become on "what helps" because I've seen how not everything works for everyone and how some things work for awhile and then quit working at times.  As another aside, I have had my share of snarky comments leveled at me on this board for my post count here.  Since for many years I was a semi-invalid where this board was my only social outlet and way to have any kind of an impact on the world my post count reflected that.  Right now I'm on the upswing of clawing my way into functionality so my daily post count is lower than it used to be.  I just had a big head start.  😉 

What I took a very long time to say is that sharing our journey, our opinions and even advice doesn't have to be a sign of hubris.  We can qualify it as "this is what worked for me" and see if others can benefit it from it or not, and if not, perhaps they might understand a bit more someone else who does things differently than they do.  And if they can't have an open mind, well, I guess that's their loss - not because my opinions are so great but because having the humility to learn from others is important in life. 

[Laura Corin]

19 hours ago, MercyA said:

It's just the way the world is right now, unfortunately. You are not the one in the wrong.

There are also cultural differences by area. My style of giving opinions seemed rude and oppositional to my MIL.

[ieta_cassiopeia]

It's a cyclical issue. Remember Socrates started philosophising to try to get the people of ancient Athens to think about why they hold their beliefs... It's an occupational hazard of being a species that has historically depended on making fast decisions - it leads to the opposite mistake of making them too fast, and not processing enough. Mental shortcuts get taken. The priority becomes to manage information overload using the least overhead, instead of managing it effectively.

 

As for the current iteration... ...I've noticed definite changes in the last 20 years, that have accelerated in the most recent 10. There is a lot of social reward for parroting influential people's opinions, and quite a lot of punishment for deviating from them even slightly, in many places. That leads to a temptation to pick the first opinion by someone that individual considers influential, and then sticking rigidly to it. Any feedback relating to it is interpreted as support for the position, even if outright contradicts the position ("positive" ones are seen as conventionally supportive, "negative" ones are seen as supportive due to the person obviously being wrong due to holding that position). The circularity of the latter is obvious to many onlookers but does not reduce the temptation of making the same mistake on a different discussion.

 

One effect is that it discourages listening, in favour of presuming. Those who groupthink but are still listening can at least learn from people who agree with them. The trouble with those encouraged to presume instead of listen is that they are less likely to understand what it was the person providing the position said (let alone intended) in the first place - regardless of whether the statement agrees with the presumer's beliefs or not. The part where Facebook/Twitter/Instagram/Tumblr conventions lean towards suggestion and opposition being worded identically (which removes nuance and subtlety - there's a reason sarcasm is often followed by /s on the internet...) does not help either (the "optimal style" to be understood on those platforms is to be as unambiguous as possible, even at the risk of lying, so that's what the platforms implicitly encourage). This is because anything not done in the optimal style for a given location is already at risk of being misunderstood, simply through lack of familiarity in that context (autistic people are very familiar with this, which was why the 1990s version of the World Wide Web was such a boon to many of them - everyone suddenly had much of the same disadvantage they have in face-to-face situations because nobody was familiar with "optimal styles" that didn't exist yet for that new context).

 

Some of this was happening pre-Internet, in groups where there wasn't much moderation of powerful influences. Hence "groupthink". However, the Internet's ability to bring together larger groups of people, from a greater distance - except where social norms contained the more powerful influences on any given site to give more people a reasonable chance to be heard. The good news is that I think most of these people can understand deeper and broader perspectives. It's just that getting them to that perspective may be unfeasible due to the mental shortcuts they have chosen.

[SKL]

Maybe I misread the OP, but it did sound like your view and the other view(s) were all spoken and heard.  It's up to the info requester to decide how to use each bit of info.  Reasearch more?  Narrow the question?  Choose the person whose name or profile picture she likes best?  Give up?

[Amy Gen]

22 hours ago, Kassia said:

We agree that many of the CC instructors are better than what we have found at the public universities my kids went on to attend.  

This has been our experience as well. My oldest got a full scholarship to CC and got her two year degree and still qualified for merit scholarships at her 4 year school. I know that is not the case everywhere. 
 

I had many friends who would not let their teens take classes at the CC because that would screw up their kid’s chance to get a swim scholarship at 18. Exactly zero of their kids were offered swim scholarships. So there is that. 
 

What I’ve learned here is that the quality of CC varies significantly from one location to another. We have been very lucky in Texas and in California as well to have access to CC with exceptional professors who continue to support and mentor my kids long after they have left CC. 
 

I think that you really have to look at all of the angles, as OP states. My kids may need CC more than the next person’s because I neither test nor grade in homeschool. Also, I know some posters live in areas where the CC only teaches subjects that their kids have already mastered at home. Every family and every kid is going to have different needs. I’m just thankful to have a great CC nearby, and if COVID is under control in the fall, I’ll sign my then 15 year old up for one class in the fall and maybe two in the Spring, just to start transitioning her to an outside school environment. The advisors at our CC do give the kids a list of the classes they need to transfer to the state flagship. They allow them to choose their classes from that list. 

[marbel]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Maybe I misread the OP, but it did sound like your view and the other view(s) were all spoken and heard.  It's up to the info requester to decide how to use each bit of info.  Reasearch more?  Narrow the question?  Choose the person whose name or profile picture she likes best?  Give up?

I agree (and with Lori's first post upthread). I don't think the CC instructor giving his credentials was any more an appeal to authority than it would have been if you'd given your credentials: I've homeschooled x # of kids for x # of years, with these results.  There is nothing wrong with explaining the basis  of your opinion/assertion. I often ask people (or in some situations, wish I could ask people) to explain the basis of their opinion/assertion.  So of course I would expect a CC instructor to tout the value of CC; it's helpful to be aware of that PoV.

For my kids, starting out in CC worked out really well, for different reasons for each kid. If I was in a FB group where people were asking those questions, I would explain my reasonings based on our experiences. (But honestly, to me most FB groups, unless they are very small and targeted, are a waste of time for getting any sort of helpful information/analysis.)

 

[TravelingChris]

On 1/30/2021 at 7:56 PM, Ottakee said:

A friend and I were talking about something similar today.  I only get to see her every few months now as she moved 2 hours away and is a doctor....during COVID so working lots extra.

We both crave some honest discussions and debates where people will listen and reason and consider other ideas.    Not to change someone's ideas but give them different perspectives to consider.

That is hard to find, and sadly even harder to find in the past year.

Yes, I agree it can be very hard to find.  I haven't found it yet- though I do see that in my disability/illness world- both the zoom and Facebook interactions have mostly been good.  In Facebook, I usually ignore or block the idiots who think using medically prescribed, responsibly taken pain killers makes you an immoral person or anyone who takes a biologic to help their disease is a crazy person or the ones who say exercise or diet or so and so supplement will cure your autoimmune disease.  We tend not to have much discussion like that- I mean for some, diet helps- and for one of my autoimmune diseases, dancing and stretching really helps, etc.  I ignore those who claim to have magic solution but block people who start calling that anyone taking opioids should stop because the research says it doesn't help (no, no it didn't- it was limited to a condition I do not have and is less serious and less painful than all my conditions, and it compared it to people who take medications I can't take and it was a different age group and it found it didn't totally alleviate pain-  yes- my pain without any pain meds is usually 6 or 7 or 8 and it isn't that infrequently it goes to 9 or 10 (at least several times a year).  But all the pain measures I use only reduce down to 3 or 4 but that doesn't mean I should have to suffer at a 6 or 7 or 8.  That is just one of the ridiculous non researched garbage that is thrown at me at times - and fortunately a lot less during COVID cause it is easier to avoid those people.

But political, economic, sociological, criminological, scientific, etc discussions have been rare where we could listen and reason and consider other ideas-  my former Sunday school had started out that way but had in the past few years changed into it being three people who were doing that, and depending on the individual day- five people who were super adamant about their positions and either everyone else or in a few circumstances, just dh and I were wrong (and that wrong was an accusation of a moral wrong and a reasoning wrong, etc).  I have already decided that when I go back to church- which will be when we have two services again- and probably after restrictions are lifted=I will be changing Sunday schools or even church I attend.

[TravelingChris]

Oh and Kelly,  I would like to recommend to you the website, The Mighty.  It is a very large community of people who either suffer from one or more of the 600 ailments covered including ALS and I think all of mine plus boards that are more general like Chronic illnesx or Rare Diseases or Disability. Etc plus caretakers too.  It is also a great way to get published and also read others thoughts.  A few years ago, some good writer wrote about what it is like w brain fog and I was able to share w my family so they could understand it isn't that I don't want to do stuff or I don't care.  I sm tulupgal in Rocket City but have only put my profile up, joined done virtual activities like painting class or coffee club a while back and also commented.  I want to write a piece when I have enough time.