irked by the "Dad is not the babysitter" posts

[omishev]

I may step on some toes here but I want to suggest a different view. I have read a various renditions of this theme, moms speaking out for equality in parenting. I agree with the title. Being Dad is an extremely important role and it is insulting to refer to him as a babysitter. But he does deserve the same courtesies I give a babysitter. He is not here all day. He doesn't know what happens when. I want to set him up for success so I give him their schedules. It would be cruel NOT to tell Dad when to feed the baby or when to put the toddler down for a nap. I do the same thing for my mom who I'm sure does an even better job with the kids than I do myself.

As far as being free to leave home, I think both sides should be courteous to give the other notice when they are going to leave. But honestly, it is not a big deal to me if he leaves. I do this all day every day. I'm good at it, not that it is always easy, but this is my normal. I don't really need notice. To him, it is a huge deal to be on his own. It is really hard for him. Practice will make it easier but as long as the kids are young, he will always be stressed when I leave.

For families in which both parents work full time outside the home, it absolutely makes sense to be equal because both parents have roughly equal time with the kids. You are equally experienced.

I got myself into this. I wanted to hold my NBs all the time. I exclusively breastfed and didn't want to pump. I rarely had reason to leave so I didn't. The babies always wanted me and, most of the time, I liked them wanting me. 

One more point then I am done my rant. Many moms would like to have dad participate more in the practical daily activities of raising children but many find themselves married to a man who is not willing to do so. Reading such posts only breeds discontentment, as no amount of nagging is going to change it. Has anyone ever seen significant long-lasting improvement with a heart-to-heart talk? Probably no. Best case scenario, he agrees in theory and resolves to do better but doesn't actually produce much lasting change. More likely, he gets offended that you think he isn't helping enough. Ultimately, there are things we can do to encourage or discourage our husbands from helping but ultimately, it is not something moms have control over so it is best not to be preoccupied with the ideal of equality in parenting.

[Storygirl]

I'm not on social media other than this site, so I don't know the comments you are referring to. However, I've long said that people should not say that fathers are babysitting when they are caring for their own children.

It really doesn't have anything to do with any of the things that you mention. Those things just need to be worked out by the couple. For me it is merely the term "babysitting." No one says that mothers babysit their own children, so we should not say that of fathers, either. When fathers are the sole caretakers of their children, they are just parenting, not babysitting. Even if they are not familiar with all of the routines and need instructions.

Edited to add: I actually don't say this in real life, because it is not my concern to tell other people what words to use. But It's been my opinion for a long time -- since before I had children, so 20 years or more -- and is not based on any social media postings. I think words have power and that we should choose them carefully.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Storygirl

[HomeAgain]

I think I disagree quite a bit, but I think we're also on the same page.

Much of the broader point of those posts is to normalize fathers parenting.  Yeah, some dads suck at being dads.  The goal is to change perception over time to what the expectations are when you bring a kid into the world.

And fwiw, I never thought of my dh as babysitting or having a lesser role even though we practiced AP-style methods.  The things dh could do, he did, and the things I could do, I did.  It has worked out over time to both of us having full time jobs - mine here while he's at work.  When we're both home, we share 50/50.  Parenting in the early years meant just as much being the person cooking while the other held/fed the baby or doing bathtime while the other cleaned up.

[marbel]

Could you maybe point out the thread/posts that this is a reaction to?   Or if they are not on this board, some background?  Context would be helpful!  

I also gritted my teeth when out with a mom and she or someone else would say that "dad is babysitting."  No, dads don't babysit their own children

But I am not sure this is what the OP is about?

[SKL]

Makes me wonder who started that trend in the first place.  A mom, a dad, or a blogger without kids?  😛

My dad, 40-50 years ago, wasn't considered a "babysitter," I don't think, though he was certainly not as active with the kids as many modern dads are.  He took us places and stayed with us when my mom went to night school etc.  My mom claims he never changed a diaper for his first 3 or 4 kids, but he did other things, especially as we got older.

[freesia]

Things around here change from heart-to-hearts.  I don't think remembering to feed your child is too much to ask. Surely, being home on weekends allows enough insight into general routines. I do leave lists of activities and times bc I maintain the family calendar.  My dh doesn't babysit and has learned not to say he is "helping"me with something that is a routine part of family life. As the PP says, words matter. Big time.

[bolt.]

I certainly find that I can shift how I contribute to functional family life based on a kind hearted chat where my spouse requests an adjustment. I’ve often found that my spouse can do the same.

My spouse has less practice with hands-on child management than I do, but that doesn’t make him a babysitter. When my children were new and I was learning my way, I was ‘mom’ regardless. I was obviously parenting my children — not babysitting them. Similarly my spouse, whether he solo parents for 5 minutes or 5 months; whether he reaches out for information or learns by trial and error; whether we are both present as a team, or if he is the only adult on site — he will still *always* and *obviously* be parenting. Never babysitting.

[Forget-Me-Not]

1 hour ago, omishev said:

Has anyone ever seen significant long-lasting improvement with a heart-to-heart talk? Probably no. Best case scenario, he agrees in theory and resolves to do better but doesn't actually produce much lasting change. More likely, he gets offended that you think he isn't helping enough. 

 

I have seen long-lasting improvement with heart-to-heart talks. 

And my DH would likely correct me if I called it babysitting. What he does is parenting. 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Forget-Me-Not

[Tanaqui]

If you're not seeing improvement by heart-to-heart talks, it may be time to consider counseling, individually or together or both.

As for "it would be cruel not to tell him how to take care of the kids" - well, maybe. But on the other hand, your telling him what to in great detail do is interfering with his ability to learn how to trust his own instincts with regards to those same children, and communicating that you think he's inept.

And really, what's so wrong about being discontent when the situation is bad!?

Edited March 19, 2019 by Tanaqui

[lulalu]

Are you talking about just babies? I extended nursed (was just normal time frame for the country I lived in) and never used bottles. All the times I was gone for a time were scheduled around feedings until about 12 months. After that dh was perfectly fine without me giving a schedule, or directions of any kind. He is the father and able to parent. I never treated him as clueless or less than as a parent. It would have been insulting to him and prideful of me to assume he couldn't parent his own child. But we were sure that from day one dh had a part in all of it (except nursing obviously). But as ds has gotten older dh has been able to do more and more. The only time I have to "explain" anything is when I leave some school work to be done. And then I let dh choose what school he wants to do with ds if needed. 

I have an aquaintance who complains to me about her dh and the kids. She honestly, is always telling him he is doing whatever wrong. Or telling him exactly how to do whatever all the time. Then she gets upset that he doesn't ever watch the kids. I even watched her kids when she had her last baby and she got on me about a few things (that really don't matter- they didn't choke with the way they had lunch!). And I decided after that to just never watch her kids again. Her dh wanted to take the 7 year old hunting for 4 days (I think) and she asked me if I would *LET* my dh do that with my son. I said yes, he is his father. And she replied her dh just doesn't know anything. It was shocking. 

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, lulalu said:

I have an aquaintance who complains to me about her dh and the kids. She honestly, is always telling him he is doing whatever wrong. Or telling him exactly how to do whatever all the time. Then she gets upset that he doesn't ever watch the kids. I even watched her kids when she had her last baby and she got on me about a few things (that really don't matter- they didn't choke with the way they had lunch!). And I decided after that to just never watch her kids again. Her dh wanted to take the 7 year old hunting for 4 days (I think) and she asked me if I would *LET* my dh do that with my son. I said yes, he is his father. And she replied her dh just doesn't know anything. It was shocking. 

I have a close person who is like that also.  I don't live with her husband, so I don't know, maybe he is a moron, but honestly.  Once the kids are old enough to walk and talk, it's pretty hard to screw up irreversibly in a short time period.  And it's not like she never makes mistakes either.  I don't know how I could stand being treated the way she treats her dh.  (Lucky me, I haven't babysat her kids, mainly because we don't live close enough.)

[LMD]

I think... marriage is a difficult and individual road. Not easily encapsulated by meme culture!

[shawthorne44]

DH was the one most irritated by the Dad_As_Babysitter idea.   

A few years before DD, I worked with a friend who had a baby, took maternal leave, and then came back to work.  We had lunch, etc. while she was on leave so I heard the highlights of the family dynamics.  One thing that had jumped out at me was that since she was on maternal leave and he was working, they both thought that all the parenting of the baby should fall on her.  When baby was maybe a month old she spent an evening away from home while their baby was home with dad.  She was very frustrated because he did the absolute bare minimum.   So, he changed a diaper, but left a sink full of un-rinsed baby bottles.   He also played video games.    When she went back to work, the attitude of his didn't change.   Part of it was that he didn't know what to do, and she was the expert.   The dad is a great guy, but I think that they got off to a bad start.   

Because of that, I'd deliberately made sure DH had daily alone time with DD.   We established that I could go to bed whenever I needed to, and he would be with DD.   When she needed to eat he would bring her to the bed (breastfeeding) and then take her when I banged on something in the bedroom).  

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Dads parent. They might parent differently but they parent. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Oh and no, the mom in a two parent home did not “get herself into this”. It takes two to make a baby. And both have responsibilities. 

[mumto2]

Just wanted to say Dad’s are parents who sometimes are lacking full information.   So yes,  you fill them in!

 When Dd was born I took care of 90% of her needs.  My husband spent time with her each day and because his office was by a babies r us bought many of her supplies on his own.  So he knew she preferred green beans etc.  but rarely fed her those green beans.  When I was hospitalized unexpectedly for 3months while pregnant with Ds he took full charge and even took Dd 18mo to work with him......clients wives graciously played with her during meetings!🥰. I have to say Dd and I had a really hard time adjusting to my being in charge again.......a first I was only better a stories and she demanded Dh for everything else.  I had a newborn too!  It isn’t easy hearing your child say they want Daddy NOW!

[Jean in Newcastle]

9 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

Yeah, the dad didn't get himself into it. Most women STEAL sperm and then trick men into marrying them after breaking the news that they'd stolen the sperm to make the baby. I'd briefly forgotten about that, but that's for sure how it works the majority of the time!!

Yrah. I was mainly trying to differentiate between single parent adopters who go into it knowing that they have sole responsibility for the children as far as parenting goes. 

[SKL]

Well, I do think some moms "get themselves into it" by being overly controlling / jealous of baby time.

I also don't think it's insulting to tell a dad some information to help things run smoothly while mom is out.

Ultimately, whatever works for a given family works.  Why judge?  It's only a matter of time before the kid no longer needs any of that kind of care.  At this point do I care which of my parents changed my diapers or how they did it?  Nope ... sorry mom, but I really don't.

I'm a single adoptive mom.  As recommended for bonding, I didn't let anyone else do any of my kids' care for the first month or so - and then, it just seemed natural for me to keep doing it*.  I always liked caring for babies from the time I was a big sister at age 9.  If I had a husband, I would have had to force myself to give him the opportunity.  If he didn't particularly want it, I would have been OK with that up to a point.  So I can see how some family situations lead to the mom being in charge and the dad being "clueless" - especially where the dad is not home much.  And I don't think that's really a problem, if it works for that family.  Again, it's only a matter of time before none of it matters.

*(I hired a nanny after 3 months, so I could work [from home] without dying of exhaustion.  But I still tried to do as much as I could myself.)

Edited March 19, 2019 by SKL

[Guest]

When my kids were little and dh was taking care of them while I was out, I don’t think I normally said, “Dad’s babysitting tonight”; I don’t really talk that way, though. I did probably say, “Dad’s holding down the fort,” or even, “Dad’s watching the kids.” But I didn’t scrupulously avoid saying “babysit,” either. I just don’t think I used that term because I think of babysitting as paid care. 

Wen my kids were babies and toddlers, I did specifically keep up with my “girl’s night out” kind of activities, because I did not want the sort of marriage where it has to be 100% mom, all the time...I wanted dh to be totally comfortable fixing dinner, giving baths, combing hair, reading bedtime stories, etc. And I wanted the kids to feel this was normal and equally good. (In fact, I thought it was beneficial for them to experience the differing “styles” of how we went about these tasks. We didn’t do the same kinds of things for baths and stories and I thought it was good to see that there are many ways of doing something, all of them fun.) 

For the most part, we had very traditional roles in marriage, but I still wanted it to be totally normal to him (and to the kids) for dad to be putting them to bed or taking them somewhere. 

[Farrar]

When my kids were small enough that things like schedules needed to be kept, dh was with them about as much as me. I've been friends with stay at home dads too.

I'm with everyone else - discussing parenting and practicalities for parenting the kids on your own is not the same as briefing the babysitter. I mean, maybe you need to remind a spouse about what time naps should start and tell them that there's a snack in the diaper bag, but when my kids were little and I briefed a babysitter, it was way more than that.

Discussions do change marriages. You absolutely can change the dynamics of your marriage if you both decide to commit to do that. Sometimes it takes therapy or outside help. Or, if you really are happy with the set up, just realize that it's not about you. And that you're happy with how your parenting situation runs, but that your partner is still not the babysitter and it has nothing to do with briefing him about what's in the diaper bag.

 

[Pawz4me]

3 hours ago, omishev said:

I may step on some toes here but I want to suggest a different view. I have read a various renditions of this theme, moms speaking out for equality in parenting. I agree with the title. Being Dad is an extremely important role and it is insulting to refer to him as a babysitter. But he does deserve the same courtesies I give a babysitter. He is not here all day. He doesn't know what happens when. I want to set him up for success so I give him their schedules. It would be cruel NOT to tell Dad when to feed the baby or when to put the toddler down for a nap. I do the same thing for my mom who I'm sure does an even better job with the kids than I do myself.As far as being free to leave home, I think both sides should be courteous to give the other notice when they are going to leave. But honestly, it is not a big deal to me if he leaves. I do this all day every day. I'm good at it, not that it is always easy, but this is my normal. I don't really need notice. To him, it is a huge deal to be on his own. It is really hard for him. Practice will make it easier but as long as the kids are young, he will always be stressed when I leave.

I don't disagree with this, but . . . don't most dads already know those things? I was a SAHM from the day oldest was born, but DH wanted to know everything when he got home from work -- what time did DS nap, how long, how many feedings was he getting/how far apart, etc. I never had to tell him any of that for either of the boys when I was going out because he already knew. And  in my circle of family and friends it seems the norm for dads to know those things.

Has anyone ever seen significant long-lasting improvement with a heart-to-heart talk?

Absolutely. We probably wouldn't have managed to make it 29 years (next month) w/o LOTS of heart-to-heart talks that changed things.

Ultimately, there are things we can do to encourage or discourage our husbands from helping but ultimately, it is not something moms have control over so it is best not to be preoccupied with the ideal of equality in parenting.

I'm not sure "preoccupied" is a term I would have used, but should moms care about equality in parenting? Absolutely. So should dads.

[JustEm]

I have always stayed home with the kids and for most of my marriage dh has worked 50+ hours a week.  He's NEVER needed me to tell him when to feed the baby, put the toddler down for a nap, change a diaper, make dinner, etc.  He has asked occasionally about the best way to help a particular kid with xyz or whatever.  I may have more experience running the day to day routine of family life but our parenting experience is the same because he is just as involved in the serious stuff as I am.  

I don't really understand the point of this post.  Are you saying you view your dh as a babysitter or that he isn't one.?

[Farrar]

Also, dads don't "help" any more than moms "help." We both parent. Sometimes the tasks of having a household together are such that the mom does more parenting and the dad does more earning money or chores or the like. However, if I work or fix the drywall, that's not "helping" either. We're all just participating in different ways in the family.

[goldberry]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

Wen my kids were babies and toddlers, I did specifically keep up with my “girl’s night out” kind of activities, because I did not want the sort of marriage where it has to be 100% mom, all the time...I wanted dh to be totally comfortable fixing dinner, giving baths, combing hair, reading bedtime stories, etc. And I wanted the kids to feel this was normal and equally good. (In fact, I thought it was beneficial for them to experience the differing “styles” of how we went about these tasks. We didn’t do the same kinds of things for baths and stories and I thought it was good to see that there are many ways of doing something, all of them fun.) 

For the most part, we had very traditional roles in marriage, but I still wanted it to be totally normal to him (and to the kids) for dad to be putting them to bed or taking them somewhere. 

 

I think that's important.  When I was present, DH would often look to me or defer to me for things that I KNEW he could figure out for himself.  I purposely did the grocery-shopping thing on a regular basis so he was home alone with her often enough as an infant.  It would be easy for some women to "enable" that behavior by always responding how to do something, etc.  But then again, I trusted him that he was an adult, competent person who could figure it out and would not do anything that would harm her.  Maybe some women don't feel that way?  Dunno...  

I had no younger siblings, never babysat, never even held other people's kids.  If I could figure it out, so could he.

[LMD]

I think you're getting kind of a hard time here, omishev!

Every marriage that I know well enough has issues. Every. One. I don't believe that sowing discontent in marriage by pretending there is an ideal is helpful. Some of us have bigger issues than others, but I wouldn't swap my issues for another's (today 😉) iykwim. 

I agree with pp's that the change in framing dad's involvement from helping/babysitting to parenting is a good one. Elevating an equally rigid standard of language and equal time/tasks maybe not so good, especially for young women who have to learn to deal with the husband they have in front of them.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I never called parenting by a dad "babysitting."  Even though we practiced attachment parenting, baby-led weaning and my kids were "securely attached" to me.  But dh and I were both committed to being parents.  He did defer to me on a lot of choices because I was the one who did the reading and had more experience.  Just like if I needed to take care of something around the house that he had more experience with.

I have met some dads who treat parenting like being thrust into the "unpaid babysitter" realm and were clueless, but they were generally selfish people who did their own thing without regard to the wants/needs of others.  My BIL was one of those.  When my sis and I were at the hospital with our dying father, my BIL was hanging out at our house with DH (they were staying with us from out of town.)  The whole time they were there, BIL didn't change their 18mo's diaper, even though it was common knowledge that she had super sensitive skin and excema.  After most of the day, dh noticed that dn seemed really uncomfortable.  Finally, dh changed dn's diaper and saw that she had a screaming red diaper rash from not having been changed all day.  He was the one who got dn into the bath and found the special cream in her diaper bag.   Not BIL who just couldn't be bothered with his kids until they were out of diapers.  

I think I might have been one of those moms who undermined the parenting of her spouse if nature hadn't intervened.  I had a rough first birth and was exhausted and in pain.  All I could manage was to feed the baby lying down and just recover.  Dh had to do all the other baby care and he developed his own ways of doing things. When I was finally recovered enough to do more, I noticed that dh didn't do things the way I would have.  When I tried to tell dh he was doing it "wrong," he gave me that look and said that he had managed for a week with a brand new baby and he managed just fine.  Put me in my place and made me realize that there is more than one right way to do things.  

[extendedforecast]

3 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Oh and no, the mom in a two parent home did not “get herself into this”. It takes two to make a baby. And both have responsibilities. 

 

I’m not sure if this has been addressed, but I took it to mean that by exclusively breastfeeding and attachment parenting, the parenting split was unbalanced. She got herself into this uneven role because of those decisions.

Edited March 20, 2019 by extendedforecast

[Farrar]

This is reminding me of a night out with friends when my kids were little. Another friend with little kids (all beyond breastfeeding, which is different) was there and her dh called a million times because he could not figure out how to do anything. She was so frustrated. We all ended up discussing it. In the end, she basically decided that it takes two to tango. That she was enabling him by never making him parent without her right there and by being okay with being the "only" parent most of the time. She resolved to change it. And they did. A couple years later, we were all out again, and I remember her saying how much better it was, though their younger two were still really little.

I'm also the default parent and I'm okay with that, but it's different from being the only parent. The default parent is the one the kids look to by default, the one who is with them more, the one who is assumed to know. But the only parent is a default parent with a partner who does not do anything alone, who is the only one who can fix the problems, know the routines, etc. And I guess if someone wants to be the "only" parent in a two parent household and everyone is okay with that... then, okay? But I don't think that's a common decision, honestly.

[Bluegoat]

I think sometimes people get het up about that term when it doesn't really matter.  To me, fathers clearing have a level of obligation that a sitter does not, they are a parent.  A lot of the time when I hear someone use that term though, it's not really trying to imply that isn't the case, it seems to be a casual way of saying the father is home with the kids at that time.  Once or twice I've felt a little bad for someone who was given a bit of a mini-lecture about this usage when I thought it really wasn't deserved.

I do think its a good idea to make a bit of a point to see that dads get some time to really learn on their own about being a carer when the babies are young, and I think sometimes it can be difficult to do that, and it can leave them at a bit of a disadvantage.  My dh was a bit all over the place with this - I did practice AP, more or less, with my older kids, nd with my first I really had a hard time letting her out of my sight or letting someone else take care of her while she was upset or anything like that.  There wasn't a huge chance for dh.

With my second he helped out a fair bit more because I wasn't working so he got 8 months parental leave.  But then when she was a toddler and ds was a newborn, he had a job where he was away 6 months a year in 3 month blocks.  That just made it really difficult for hi to parent the way he might have otherwise, even when he was at home - he worked at an office when he was home too, so it isn't like he had extra time then.

With my youngest, he did far more. She was born more than 6 years after my son, and I'd help raise two other kids not my own by then,  and  I was old and confident enough to throw away a good deal of the AP stuff which I'd decided was not so important, and really let him spend a lot of time with her. He was far more settled as a father too, less focused on his own things, and I had started to get back into some outside activities and didn't want to give them all up.

 I do think that negotiating this stuff can work, and it also evolves over time.  Often what I see with new parents is they fall into a pattern that neither person really planned on, because at the beginning no one really knows what is going on, they have no experience, and they are a little overwhelmed.  Often its dominated by biology if the mother is breastfeeding, so she gets most of the direct baby work, and then maybe whatever pattenr they were used to from their childhood.  At a certain point it seems to be not working or what they want, so they have to figure out something new.

[extendedforecast]

My husband and I were discussing this recently. He said that he would not take offense if I were to offhandedly say that he was home babysitting to anyone, because it is meant as a joke. He thinks people are too sensitive and take everything so seriously all the time. Each time we brought home a baby, I took care of the baby and DH took care of me by taking over my portion of the housework and preparing meals. Gradually, as the baby started solids and weaned from the breast, he took more parenting responsibility. Some of our kids were willing to take a bottle, and he would care for them if I needed to go out, but with the ones who didn't take the bottle,  I was the only option so I either took them with me or left them with him for a very short time (with a backup bottle of course). Besides nursing and changing poopy diapers, we equally cared for our babies. Now that the kids are older, it is 50/50 with the kids. I stay at home, so I take on more housework than he does. I've never felt the need to give special instructions before leaving kids with DH.

[SeaConquest]

My husband has always done as much if not more than me (to be honest) in the raising kids department. We absolutely parent differently, but we both parent. I have never given him instructions on how to take care of the kids when I've run off to get a pedicure or whatnot. I just left a bottle of pumped milk or formula, when the kids were babies, and walked out the door. We took turns getting up at night to change diapers or to put babies back to sleep when they cried. He was a champion swaddler. He wiped butts. He still wipes butts. When there wasn't a changing table in the men's room, he would politely knock on the women's bathroom door and announce that he needed to change a diaper. The women never complained. Honestly, if you've got a husband who is, in effect, a babysitter IMO you need to train him better. And if you think that equality in parenting doesn't matter, or that people don't change, yadda yadda, you are really selling yourself (and other women, including any daughters/future daughters in law) short. 

[elegantlion]

I cringe at the dad's babysitting wording. No, my ex parented.  I had more "shifts" than him as a SAHHP (stay at home homeschooling parent) and I would let him know where we were in a shift if he came home from work and I went somewhere alone, but I didn't have to explain how to do things. Ex had more experience with infants than I did when ds was born. We both did the work necessary to raise a young child. 

My ex is a piece of work (in a very bad way) in so many areas. Today him and ds don't have a great relationship, but when ds was little, he was a great dad. To even consider what he did as babysitting would have offended him greatly. 

[Tap]

So....I gotta ask, do you pay him to babysit *your* child too? Cuz, if he is a parent, he parents. If he is a babysitter, I figure he must be charging you for his services since he is giving up his free time to do it. A babysitter is NOT someone in a primary role for the child. A grandparent can be a babysitter because they are not primarily responsible for the child. If the grandparent is a primary role, they say "I am helping to raise my grandchild"....key words, raise them.....not babysit. A husband is raising his children. He is a parent. He is in a primary role. 

I don't understand why a father needs to be told to feed the kids or change a diaper. Really? Unless he is not there on the weekends and evenings, I assume he knows what a child's basic schedule is and what it means if the baby gets fussy. I think it is highly offensive to assume he doesn't know how to provide the most basic care of his own children.  Sure, a basic "baby takes two naps a day, once in the morning and again about 2pm. Feed him a snack about 130 and he will sleep longer." is a nice reminder, but probably not necessary. And my husband would have laughed at me if I tried to leave him a list of instructions. 

One of my closest friends is a working mom with a stay at home dad. I know she would be HIGHLY offended if he said she babysat the kids when she was home with them. LOL They attachment parent and have a family bed. She is the farthest thing from a babysitter!!!!

Edited March 20, 2019 by Tap

[DesertBlossom]

I wholeheartedly agree that fathers do not "babysit" their children, but I don't think I have ever heard anyone in real life phrase it that way. I only see online rants about how dads aren't babysitters. 😆

Someone generously gave us a gigantic box of newborn clothing for this baby (since I had donated mine... doh) and there was a onesie that said "dad proof shirt" with labels for the arm and head holes. It went directly to the donate pile because I don't think that's funny. DH is not stupid.  Stuff like that irks me.

[JustEm]

48 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

I wholeheartedly agree that fathers do not "babysit" their children, but I don't think I have ever heard anyone in real life phrase it that way. I only see online rants about how dads aren't babysitters. 😆

Someone generously gave us a gigantic box of newborn clothing for this baby (since I had donated mine... doh) and there was a onesie that said "dad proof shirt" with labels for the arm and head holes. It went directly to the donate pile because I don't think that's funny. DH is not stupid.  Stuff like that irks me.

 

I've had woman ask me how I get my dh to babysit the kids. The first time it happened I thought she meant how do I get dh to schedule a babysitter because they are the family schedulers in their family. When I correct them and say he's not babysitting they ignore my remark and start commenting on how their dh wouldn't be able to handle bedtime so they could never stay out late.

Wth does bedtime involve that a grown man can't handle it, excluding a baby who is still breastfeeding and falls asleep to nursing?

[Shoeless]

7 hours ago, Thatboyofmine said:

Y’all are all so much smarter than me.   I can’t figure out what the op is saying to save my life.  I’ve read it 3 times and I’m still lost.  So is she saying her dh *is* the babysitter or *isn’t*?  I swear I’m normally a fairly intelligent person, but obviously this isn’t my night. 

I guess it's not my night as well.  I can't exactly figure it out, either.   Maybe it's in reaction to the "Mental Load" threads?

[Pawz4me]

In thinking about this thread more last night it occurred to me that we (DH and I) never even used the word babysitting when the boys were with any of their grandparents while we were out doing something. They were the only people who ever kept the boys for us, and I guess to my way of thinking a babysitter is a paid position, not a parent or grandparent doing what to me are normal parenting and grandparenting things. As @StellaM said, I didn't have to leave the grandparents a snack or my phone number. So . . not babysitters.

[Jean in Newcastle]

If someone uses the term “babysitting” with regards to a dad  in casual conversation I wouldn’t jump all over them. I know what they mean and I would figure that it was a slip of the tongue.  But I would be aware of general attitudes towards the dad’s role in the baby’s life.  

 Like many have said, my dh was not my infant’s primary caregiver due to breastfeeding and also the hours he worked. But when he was home he had an important role as Dad. (And of course he was dad even while at work but he wasn’t able to act on it as such.). We both try to treat each other courteously in our daily lives but there are no apologies or walking on eggshells when it came to him needing to step up as a dad.

I do know some couples who seem to see treat the dad as “king” who shouldn’t have to be “bothered “ with childcare and that attitude is one that is a red flag to me. Even my parents who parented during the 50’s and 60’s did not view my dad’s role jn such a way. My dad wasn’t in the delivery room due to customs at that time but he changed diapers and rocked babies and parented us as infants as well as when we were older. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

In thinking about this thread more last night it occurred to me that we (DH and I) never even used the word babysitting when the boys were with any of their grandparents while we were out doing something. They were the only people who ever kept the boys for us, and I guess to my way of thinking a babysitter is a paid position, not a parent or grandparent doing what to me are normal parenting and grandparenting things. As @StellaM said, I didn't have to leave the grandparents a snack or my phone number. So . . not babysitters.

Same here, except there was a brief period of time when I did pay DD for “babysitting” her younger brothers while we went out to dinner. I did this because I was sensitive due to my having been an automatic, assumed unpaid babysitter for my siblings as a teen. I didn’t think it was respectful. So when DD was a handy age to watch her brothers for a couple of hours, I treated it like a paid position and did pay her for those times, because I would have paid someone else otherwise and I wanted to give her that respect. 

[El...]

I get some of what you are saying, op. And I agree that sometimes stay-at-home parents become discontent with the arrangements they themselves create. I think that's normal, because everyone grows over time and needs change as they and their kids grow. 

I notice that a lot of friction can occur when one person wants change and the other thinks it's all fine in the established pattern, especially if the way things are going is comfortable.

However, that one line about heart to heart conversation not changing anything... That's not good, sweetheart. Maybe the conversation style needs to change, maybe you need to be more clear about what you need/want, but yeah, deep heartfelt conversation from you should turn the family ship, IMO.

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

In thinking about this thread more last night it occurred to me that we (DH and I) never even used the word babysitting when the boys were with any of their grandparents while we were out doing something. They were the only people who ever kept the boys for us, and I guess to my way of thinking a babysitter is a paid position, not a parent or grandparent doing what to me are normal parenting and grandparenting things. As @StellaM said, I didn't have to leave the grandparents a snack or my phone number. So . . not babysitters.

 

So - I think this is sometimes the real issue.  People use the word in various ways.  I tend to say "Nana is going to look after you" or "you will stay with Aunt M" and reserve "babysit" for someone a hire or especially a teenager I hire.  Or actually, maybe even a teen I wasn't paying.

But some people seem to use it far more broadly.  I don't know that that is really wrong, it's just different.

[Bluegoat]

5 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

That would all be true if we weren't discussing it in the context of someone saying that men are just going to do whatever they inherently want to do, and there's no point even talking to them [nagging] about family dynamics. And that women are discontent when they read articles that don't apply to their situation. And that any time a woman seeks to meaningfully address the workload (s) in her home, she is after some fantastical and impractical equality that she has no right to work toward.

I object to all this as a woman in an extremely traditional type of domestic arrangement, married to a very traditionally masculine American dad-man. I bottle-fed my last kid from jumpstreet and all my kids after a certain point and I never once shared feeding duties with my husband, except when I was unwell. Regardless... I'm still a person deserving of respect and consideration. He's still a person who is capable to helping me with the duties I chose to man when I became a mother when the occasion calls for it. 

The backlash against the term "babysitter" for father grew out of a discontent with a situation writ large wherin a lot of women found themselves with men on their hands who claimed to not be able to do simple, straightforward (yes for everyone. Some things just ARE straightforward. Like I said previously, my kids can do the stuff we're talking about here, and one of them does have ADD...) without significant front-loaded and then continuing work on the part of his spouse. It was/is BS. And now people are calling out that BS. And that's uncomfortable for a lot of people who don't want it to change and it's uncomfortable for a lot of women who find that they are married to men opposed to personal growth either for his own sake, or for her sake, or, indeed, for his family's sake. And that totally sucks. 

IOW, we are not discussing the use of the term "babysitting" irt fathers in a vacuum. Yes, a one-off or as a habit of vocabulary, it is no big deal. But it's like the pp who said that people have asked her how she "got" her husband to be alone with his own kids for a short time. <<-------- The dynamic that drives that mindset happens a lot and it's unsat. 

 

My experience with these kinds of memes  is that they often take on a life beyond the kind of deeper discussion you are talking about, and people start to use them as a way to decide which words are ok to use, and which aren't, without much regard to who they are saying them to.  It's like FB has a way of taking a real thing and making it shallow.

[Mimm]

I never gave my husband the same "courtesies" as a baby sitter. Even when the babies were brand new. By the time we came home from the hospital, he had changed more diapers than I had. He prioritized MY sleep in the following weeks. We wrote diaper changes and bottles on the wipe off board so we were both on the same page (I needed this as much as he did.) He knew how to mix a bottle, swaddle a baby, and tie a moby wrap on himself. My husband is not a very nurturing guy by nature. He doesn't like babies much (though he doesn't especially dislike them.) But he's very much a "fulfill your obligations" kind of guy. He prefers to think of himself as competent at anything he must do, and taking care of a baby he helped make is an obligation and something he intends to do well. Furthermore, he sees it as partially his responsibility to make sure I don't lose my mind taking care of our children.

In other words, any man can take care of babies if they cared to make it a priority and viewed themselves as equally responsible, even if not equally available due to work. They certainly don't need to be treated like a babysitter. The only thing they need communicated to them, is what feedings or medication or whatever happened when they weren't around. Basically the same thing I would need communicated to me when I left the house without the kids, or took a nap.

[SKL]

This thread reminds me of when I was a small kid and seriously wondered why they called it "babysitting."  We weren't babies, after all!  And "sitting" doesn't make sense either.  It's a dumb word and I wonder how it has outlasted so many other words.  😛 

I'm pretty sure my folks called it "watching the kids" when one parent was doing that duty.

[Scarlett]

17 hours ago, omishev said:

I may step on some toes here but I want to suggest a different view. I have read a various renditions of this theme, moms speaking out for equality in parenting. I agree with the title. Being Dad is an extremely important role and it is insulting to refer to him as a babysitter. But he does deserve the same courtesies I give a babysitter. He is not here all day. He doesn't know what happens when. I want to set him up for success so I give him their schedules. It would be cruel NOT to tell Dad when to feed the baby or when to put the toddler down for a nap. I do the same thing for my mom who I'm sure does an even better job with the kids than I do myself.

As far as being free to leave home, I think both sides should be courteous to give the other notice when they are going to leave. But honestly, it is not a big deal to me if he leaves. I do this all day every day. I'm good at it, not that it is always easy, but this is my normal. I don't really need notice. To him, it is a huge deal to be on his own. It is really hard for him. Practice will make it easier but as long as the kids are young, he will always be stressed when I leave.

For families in which both parents work full time outside the home, it absolutely makes sense to be equal because both parents have roughly equal time with the kids. You are equally experienced.

I got myself into this. I wanted to hold my NBs all the time. I exclusively breastfed and didn't want to pump. I rarely had reason to leave so I didn't. The babies always wanted me and, most of the time, I liked them wanting me. 

One more point then I am done my rant. Many moms would like to have dad participate more in the practical daily activities of raising children but many find themselves married to a man who is not willing to do so. Reading such posts only breeds discontentment, as no amount of nagging is going to change it. Has anyone ever seen significant long-lasting improvement with a heart-to-heart talk? Probably no. Best case scenario, he agrees in theory and resolves to do better but doesn't actually produce much lasting change. More likely, he gets offended that you think he isn't helping enough. Ultimately, there are things we can do to encourage or discourage our husbands from helping but ultimately, it is not something moms have control over so it is best not to be preoccupied with the ideal of equality in parenting.

I see you have been beaten up a bit in this thread.  I hope you can read what some are trying to say to you....that some of your views seem  off.....if you are happy with the level,of help you get from your husband that is great. And if you are unhappy but know your husband won’t change than sure I see value in not being bitter and unhappy about it.  I had an xh like that.....he  rarely changed anything about himself regardless of my pleadings. I happily did everything for our son.  He might have put him to bed twice in the 9 years he lived with our son and me.  

But if there is a chance you want more help and he doesn’t fully realize it....then by all means have a kind discussion with him.  I told my xh, ‘well you won’t ever be able to say you didn’t know what I needed or wanted.  You are now operating with full knowledge of how it affects me’.  

((((OMISHEV)))))

[TechWife]

18 hours ago, omishev said:

 Has anyone ever seen significant long-lasting improvement with a heart-to-heart talk?

Yes, I have. Healthy relationships grow and change over time. Communication is the key to understanding both others and ourselves. We have had a lot of heart-to-heart talks over the years and have instituted various changes in our lives as a result. I'm 26 years into this marriage and yes, definitely. Mature, respectful & honest communication works.

[lavender's green]

I keep starting to type a response and then deleting it. I'm just not quite sure what Omishev is saying.

If you're happy with your marriage and your responsibilities, that's great. There are many ways to do marriage. However, some are more likely to lead to resentment and bitterness than others.

This doesn't have to be an either/or thing. I mother the kids, and he fathers them. I'm home and he works a traditional job, therefore I see more and he sees less, but he doesn't see nothing. When we're both home we both pitch in, and if I leave to shop or get a haircut it's NBD for him. He knows the kids and their ways, even if he lacks the Mommy touch (but he has his own Daddy touch which the kids love). That's a far cry from his parents' marriage, where his mom did everything around the house, his dad was a workaholic, and if he did something "wrong" with the kids she'd threaten him with divorce. It's also pretty different from my parents' marriage, which was more egalitarian - actually they mostly outsourced the mothering aspect to my grandma.

I also think the daddy babysitting meme has taken on a life of its own. Some people use the word to mean whoever's watching the kids. I reserve it for paid teens. I get that we're talking about the attitude behind it, but sometimes, for some people, that's just a normal word to mean whoever is doing the childcare right now.

I think that never expecting heart-to-heart conversations to lead to long-term change is a problem. I was pretty shocked to read that. DH and I can state our needs, expectations, weaknesses, etc, to each other, because those things evolve over time. We want to be on the same page, and the way you get on the same page is by spelling things out, not leaving the other guessing, or quietly accepting a position that secretly makes you miserable.

Why does this irk you, OP? Why the vent? If you're happy with how things are why even get worked up about how other people do marriage, or feel about their role in their household? 

[TechWife]

14 hours ago, extendedforecast said:

 

I’m not sure if this has been addressed, but I took it to mean that by exclusively breastfeeding and attachment parenting, the parenting split was unbalanced. She got herself into this uneven role because of those decisions.

I may be misunderstanding attachment parenting, but wouldn't both parents be living an attachment parenting lifestyle? Or maybe she means she is into attachment parenting and her dh isn't, so she didn't want him to care for the baby because he didn't do it the same way she did?

[fairfarmhand]

10 hours ago, hjffkj said:

 

I've had woman ask me how I get my dh to babysit the kids. 

Wth does bedtime involve that a grown man can't handle it, excluding a baby who is still breastfeeding and falls asleep to nursing?

Bedtime is one thing that I have to handle because my dh can’t even put himself to bed. 

The man has absolutely  no concept of time, particularly in the evening hours. If I don’t say “im going to bed” he will be up till ridiculous hours. I could come home at 11 and my dh and the kids would still be up...however, I dislike being out at night, so I never would be gone at bedtime.

and if I was feeling badly, I could ask my dh at the appropriate time, “please get the kids to bed.” And it would happen. 

So bedtime is definitely my thing. I assume that we’re I to be hit by a bus tomorrow, he’d eventually figure it out. But I don’t want to deal with the fall out of grumpy sleep deprived kids until he does. 

[Corraleno]

I think the issue isn't so much the word itself, it's the implication of the word. If you ask someone to babysit, you would either pay them or offer to return the favor, or if there's no obligation to reciprocate, you would consider it a gift. A man isn't doing his wife a personal favor, or giving her a gift, by watching his own children.

Many (obviously not all) men just assume that all housework, childcare, and family management are the wife's "job" by default. To them, watching the kids or putting them to bed or loading the dishwasher or cleaning the bathroom equals "helping" the wife do her job — often with the expectation of being praised and thanked for "helping," even when the "help" adds up to far less than an equal share of the load. That can lead to a lot of stress and resentment.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Corraleno