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StellaM last won the day on March 8

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  1. Oh goodness, I think enthusiastic consent is almost better expressed and understood non verbally! I think it's supposed to be explicit and verbal, though, especially between casual partners.
  2. Enthusiastic consent is just supposed to mean explicit non-coercion, but I don't know why it isn't just called non-coercion. I mean, people should know that consent can't be coerced, because if it is, it's not consent! But people think 'yes' is consent. And so, to get around the idea of a 'yes' that has been coerced, there's this idea that a 'Yes, please!' is a better standard. Because 'yes, please!' is less likely to be a coerced expression. Idk. I think the whole thing is weird. I mean, it's good, if it's made explicit why you should seek 'enthusiastic consent' and not just 'consent'. But the term 'enthusiastic' brings in some extra...connotations.
  3. Look, I think in the end, if we want incels to go away, we have to stop being such flipping hypocrites. Telling blokes on the one hand 'you have no right to a woman for sex and other comforts!' at the same time as we turn a blind eye to practices which explicitly communicate 'you can buy women for sex and other comforts!' is unlikely to be very productive. I don't feel sorry for incels at all. They think of women as's like feeling sorry for someone who can't buy a BMW. Too bad, so sad. But I do think we owe them some consistency in the messages we send.
  4. They just sound entitled to me. And deeply envious of those men who seem to be successfully performing the kind of masculinity that gets them free sex with hot women. I don't think we need to replace consent - consent is a useful, if low, bar. We just need to think through the mixed messages we give around consent, and understand that consent is a more complex, and yet limited concept than an article in Everyday Feminism would have it. We probably need to 1. deepen our discourse around consent and 2. think about what we can do to lift the bar higher than mere consent, enthusiastic or not,.
  5. The only difference between incels and some other men who feel entitled to female bodies is that incels aren't prepared to pay. That's the single difference between a john and an incel - a john thinks he's owed sex, and that exchange of money entitles him to sex, incels think they are owed sex, but they don't want to pay. Even in marriage (and out of it) there is an assumption that women's bodies are an exploitable resource. Greer's argument centres around absolute and conditional freedoms - her point being that the ability of heterosexual women in relationships to consent is conditional, not absolute. I tend to think she is right - read any 'relationship advice' and see what it has to say about the long term 'withdrawal' of sex, as if sex is labor, and is being withdrawn as in a strike. Anyway, I just don't see a hard division between incels and the society incels exist in, nor between incels and what plenty commonly accept and promote. Are they are the extreme end of a spectrum ? Of course. But they are not different in kind.
  6. I just think consent is way more complex than is usually presented. For example, consent only guards against the grossest of harms - it doesn't actually guard against most harms. Either way, I am pretty sure a Canadian classicist musing on the net isn't a Trojan horse for - idk - the abolishing of rape in marriage laws or whatever.
  7. I know some people here won't read Greer unless they are wearing a necklace of garlic round their neck, lol, but she has some very interesting critiques around the utility of consent as concept - coming at it from a completely different perspective compared to Bluegoat, but interesting nonetheless.
  8. Calling a concept 'limited' isn't the same as trashing it. Can we not critique the limitations of consent ?
  9. She doesn't mean or propose anything - it's just discussing an idea.
  10. If you're already working on clothes, why not continue with clothes/laundry related tidying ? Clean clothes hung up or put away, dirty clothes and socks in appropriate hampers ? (Full disclosure - I don't make my kids put clean clothes away - dirty clothes, up to them - ds does all his on laundry, but I will wash the girls' stuff if it's in the main hamper). Otherwise just choose the one thing that bugs you the most!
  11. Oh, sorry, just saw your most recent post - feel free to ignore mine above 🙂
  12. Honestly, I would just ask for the referral. My experience of child and adolescent psychiatrists is that they are quite careful around meds for children; having said that, meds can sometimes be what enables a child or teen to be able to engage with therapies effectively. Is she seeing a psychologist or counsellor ? That's another step, I guess...if she's not currently seeing a psychologist, you could make that switch. You can get a mental health plan through the GP which will cover 10 psychology sessions in one year (six, then review, then four).
  13. I think I'd do it CM style, laying down the rails and all that. So, rather than all try to keep up with a long checklist initally, choose one thing off the list. If it's 'make beds', then that's all you worry about for now, until making beds is a habit. Then add the next thing. I also find it helpful to 'peg' chores to something else - for example, I always put away the dishes while I wait for the kettle to boil for my cup of tea in the morning. It's easier to do things when they are paired with an already existing thing that happens consistently. For folding, try Marie Kondo family folding sessions - folding can be really soothing, actually.
  14. Agreed. For OCD I would seek out a child and adolescent psychiatrist as a first step (GP can refer).
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