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irked by the "Dad is not the babysitter" posts


omishev
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26 minutes ago, lavender's green said:

I also think the daddy babysitting meme has taken on a life of its own. Some people use the word to mean whoever's watching the kids. I reserve it for paid teens. I get that we're talking about the attitude behind it, but sometimes, for some people, that's just a normal word to mean whoever is doing the childcare right now.

 

I don’t know any daddy babysitting meme so I’ll probably check that out later.

My extender family use the phrase “babysitting duty” and “chauffeur duty” in a joking tone even before I was born in the 70s. My childhood neighborhood use those phrases similarly.

Someone would say parent/grandparent/aunt/uncle/cousin is on babysitting duty or chauffeur duty and no one would think that it’s offensive or demeaning or a paid job. My maternal aunt and her kids “babysat” me for free as my parents worked shifts. One of my late aunt was a babysitter. When we say she is on babysitting duty, it means she is looking after relatives versus paid clients.  

When we say that a cousin is on chauffeur duty, it means that she/he is doing all the driving around that day of “chauffeuring” relatives (usually elderly and/or sickly) to places. I can’t drive and my husband would say he is on chauffeur duty. Here, I often see moms driving the kids on weekdays and dads doing the driving on weekends probably due to the dad’s weekday work schedules. 

Most of my male relatives (other than two self centered ones) are great at housework (including cooking) and infant care. My SIL (husband’s sister) has twins and her husband is great at infant care too. My hyper cautious oldest trusted her husband to hold him as a baby as long as I was nearby. My BIL (husband’s brother) has a domestic maid that also does infantcare (Asia) so their maid actually helped with my kids (when under two) when we were at their home, in-laws home or my home (my mom did give the maid a cash gift as thanks when the maid was at my home because BIL family was visiting). So babysitting is really use in a joking manner here for my side of the family and SIL’s husband’s side of the family. 

My FIL is the one that does nothing other than work. However my MIL is a partial enabler as she only ask once or twice and give up, then “whine” to their kids. Also she doesn’t trust FIL to take care of under 2s other than looking after a grandchild sleeping in a stroller. MIL tells FIL all the “wrong” things he do while “babysitting” so I would have stop helping too if I was in FIL’s position. FIL changed my youngest’s diaper without issues but had a lecture from MIL that he didn’t do it correctly. Then complained that FIL didn’t help diaper change their kids. My husband told his mom that his dad won’t dare do any infant care with his mom scrutinizing and criticizing.

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I think maybe the push-back is about the attitude that parenting [along with housework] needs to be "equal."  Things can be reasonably equal in the big picture without parenting being anywhere close to equal.  I think everyone on this board would agree with that, but some people like to pick a fight, some people have never actually been married with children, and some people are just immature. 

I have known some people like that, and I've seen them change their tune a lot as they matured.  A guy who used to be just lazy and stupid somehow morphed into a guy with a good character and some humorous quirks.  She probably changed more than he did.

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Wondering if it's ok or even worth it to have an honest conversation about something is a form of "walking on eggshells", in my opinion - especially when it is about a Dad simply taking responsibility for being a dad.  Using the term "got myself into it" when talking about having children is problematic because the decision to have children should be one that is made together and isn't a situation where the woman should have to shoulder the "blame" for the condition she has found herself in.  This thread did not come up as a random conversation about an internet meme - it came up in a marital and family context.

Equality in marriage isn't about everyone doing everything exactly the same as the other or the splitting everything down the middle in terms of chores or not having agreed upon roles however that might benefit the personalities and strengths of each spouse.  It has to do with the shouldering responsibility for the health of the marriage and family equally.  It has to do with having the freedom to be heard equally.  And with being respected as a valued part of the marriage and family equally. 

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21 hours ago, Storygirl said:

I'm not on social media other than this site, so I don't know the comments you are referring to. However, I've long said that people should not say that fathers are babysitting when they are caring for their own children.

It really doesn't have anything to do with any of the things that you mention. Those things just need to be worked out by the couple. For me it is merely the term "babysitting." No one says that mothers babysit their own children, so we should not say that of fathers, either. When fathers are the sole caretakers of their children, they are just parenting, not babysitting. Even if they are not familiar with all of the routines and need instructions.

Edited to add: I actually don't say this in real life, because it is not my concern to tell other people what words to use. But It's been my opinion for a long time -- since before I had children, so 20 years or more -- and is not based on any social media postings. I think words have power and that we should choose them carefully.

 

 

I wouldn't use the term "babysit" but I do say "will you watch the kids?"

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20 hours ago, SKL said:

Makes me wonder who started that trend in the first place.  A mom, a dad, or a blogger without kids?  😛

My dad, 40-50 years ago, wasn't considered a "babysitter," I don't think, though he was certainly not as active with the kids as many modern dads are.  He took us places and stayed with us when my mom went to night school etc.  My mom claims he never changed a diaper for his first 3 or 4 kids, but he did other things, especially as we got older.

I think it was a mom whose husband doesn't help much and needed to vent haha!

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20 hours ago, marbel said:

Could you maybe point out the thread/posts that this is a reaction to?   Or if they are not on this board, some background?  Context would be helpful!  

I also gritted my teeth when out with a mom and she or someone else would say that "dad is babysitting."  No, dads don't babysit their own children

But I am not sure this is what the OP is about?

I have read several blog posts that were shared by friends on facebook. The main point is equality in parenting and while I think some of the finer points are impractical (especially for nursing moms) overall that is a good goal to work towards as a society. However, telling that to moms isn't particularly helpful. If Daddy blogs were a big thing this message should be all over them! But reminding me that I "should" be receiving more help only breeds discontentment. 

A few years ago my friend shared her experience visiting an Indian family and it was very powerful. The mom did not sit and eat dinner with the family. It was their custom for mom to serve the meal, feed the kids etc and eat afterwards. In my current stage of life I spent most of the meal nursing or spoon feeding a baby, cutting food for the toddler, running to the kitchen to get someone seconds or condiments, utensils, water, washcloths etc. Effectively, I was doing the same thing this Indian mother was doing, serving her family and eating later. But the difference was in our attitudes. She was content because her expectations were met. I was very discontent because I expected to sit and eat dinner with my family, despite years of experiencing otherwise. 

 

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18 minutes ago, omishev said:

Effectively, I was doing the same thing this Indian mother was doing, serving her family and eating later. But the difference was in our attitudes. She was content because her expectations were met. I was very discontent because I expected to sit and eat dinner with my family, despite years of experiencing otherwise. 

 

It is similar for Asia Asian families (no idea about American Asians), that the chef (regardless of gender) eats last. My MIL is contented eating last because she feels happy feeding family and/or guests. However I usually eat at the same time as my family.  

When my kids were under 2, what helped was very simple one pot dishes. Even when my mom was around to help, my husband would help with seconds and take dirty dishes to the sink. My husband would get takeout on the way home if I don’t feel like cooking.  I had two difficult pregnancies which involved bed rest and I am thankful my husband just do whatever needed without asking. My marriage has its arguments but we have thankfully not quarreled.

Obviously I won’t know what would work for your family but I hope you could resolve your discontent with your spouse.

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18 hours ago, hjffkj said:

I don't really understand the point of this post.  Are you saying you view your dh as a babysitter or that he isn't one.?

I don't view him as a babysitter but I think he might?? He can come home from work and say he's going out to mow the lawn or going running. If he walked in the door and I said I was doing anything other than watching the kids (without scheduling it in advance and reminding him during the day), I can't imagine the response! He makes the assumption that he has free time to do whatever he wants when he isn't at work. Now, often he chooses to spend that time with the kids, and that is awesome, but he views it as a choice. If I want to do anything I need to get it cleared ahead of time. He is always home for dinner we always put the kids to bed together, but he usually stands around watching the process or wrestling with them. If I specifically ask him to do something he might do it (but sometimes says no) and if I routinely ask him to do that same thing he might get to the point where he does it without me asking. After years of training he now is in the routine of contributing to getting get the kids ready for church. But he does not look around and see what needs to be done. He does not look at his weekend and think, "my wife might need an hour or two without the kids to get something done" and plan accordingly. If I have a legitimate obligation and give him notice he is happy to do something with the kids but I can't just say "can I have an hour to organize the basement?" and certainly not something frivolous like going shopping or working on a sewing project. Whatever he has to do is always more important.
 

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18 hours ago, extendedforecast said:

 

I’m not sure if this has been addressed, but I took it to mean that by exclusively breastfeeding and attachment parenting, the parenting split was unbalanced. She got herself into this uneven role because of those decisions.

Exactly! 

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21 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

If you're not seeing improvement by heart-to-heart talks, it may be time to consider counseling, individually or together or both.

As for "it would be cruel not to tell him how to take care of the kids" - well, maybe. But on the other hand, your telling him what to in great detail do is interfering with his ability to learn how to trust his own instincts with regards to those same children, and communicating that you think he's inept.

And really, what's so wrong about being discontent when the situation is bad!?

Thank you for your response. He is not willing to do counseling, because of the cost and because the status quo is fine with him. Things aren't that bad. I do try to foster an attitude of contentment because being unhappy isn't helping the situation. And I am continually trying to work on my approach when I have to bring up issues. 

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There are many women in Eastern traditional cultures who tell me that they want to marry American men so that they are not stuck with expectations of doing it all without any help or respect (because there is an impression of more equality in American marriages). Just because a woman knows how to suck it up doesn’t mean that she is content. (It doesn’t necessarily mean that she is discontent either.)

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My dh is the one who hates hearing dads called babysitters. When I met him he was a single dad raising a teenage son, and he had custody since dss was little. He doesn't like it when dads are referred to as either babysitting or watching the kids. I agree with him but he gets much more upset about those terms than I do. 

As for heart to heart talks, if dh and I hadn't had any heart to hearts we'd probably be divorced instead of having celebrated our 25th anniversary in January. Some heart to hearts showed me that I needed to make changes. Some showed him what he needed to change. And some of our heart to heart talks made us realize we needed to compromise and both make changes. Without those talks I'm sure our relationship and marriage would have tanked. I think one of the important things about such talks is that they shouldn't happen when one of you is angry. They need to happen when you can both discuss things calmly.

@omishev I'm sorry you're going through this. You say your dh doesn't think anything needs to change because he's satisfied with the status quo. He needs to know and understand that you are not satisfied with the way things are. Until that happens nothing will change. Perhaps you should just go and do something one day when he gets home from work. Just say, I'm going to do X now and leave it at that. Make it something away from home so he has no choice but to handle things on his own. Try it more than once. Of course you know your dh and your relationship and whether or not something like that will work,  but maybe he needs you to shock him a few times before he'll agree to sit down and talk - talk with the idea of making changes you can both agree on.

Edited by Lady Florida.
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47 minutes ago, omishev said:

I don't view him as a babysitter but I think he might?? He can come home from work and say he's going out to mow the lawn or going running. If he walked in the door and I said I was doing anything other than watching the kids (without scheduling it in advance and reminding him during the day), I can't imagine the response! He makes the assumption that he has free time to do whatever he wants when he isn't at work. Now, often he chooses to spend that time with the kids, and that is awesome, but he views it as a choice. If I want to do anything I need to get it cleared ahead of time. He is always home for dinner we always put the kids to bed together, but he usually stands around watching the process or wrestling with them. If I specifically ask him to do something he might do it (but sometimes says no) and if I routinely ask him to do that same thing he might get to the point where he does it without me asking. After years of training he now is in the routine of contributing to getting get the kids ready for church. But he does not look around and see what needs to be done. He does not look at his weekend and think, "my wife might need an hour or two without the kids to get something done" and plan accordingly. If I have a legitimate obligation and give him notice he is happy to do something with the kids but I can't just say "can I have an hour to organize the basement?" and certainly not something frivolous like going shopping or working on a sewing project. Whatever he has to do is always more important.
 

I'm sorry you're feeling like your tasks are not important. They are, mental well-being is paramount in parenting. Within my married life there were several periods where we had one working car and ex needed it for work (he was a carpenter, think truck full of tools). I would often call him, let me know that I needed a break and when he got home, I was going to use the car for an hour or two. Often times I would just go out window shopping, some times it was grocery shopping alone. He didn't like having that sprung on him when he walked in the door, but he was decent about it if I called before. That probably took a heart to heart from me at some point. 

Have you considered joining a meet up group or a sewing group so that you'd have a designated activity outside of the house. It could be a start. 

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At one point I felt a bit that way—like he could just leave and I couldn’t do the same. Well we had a heart to heart and I just started doing it. He’d come home for lunch ( we don’t eat lunch together but all eat at home.) I would grab the cars keys and say—I’m going to the grocery store.  It took me changing my behavior and language. I resented having to say “Will you watch the kids?” when he never did. During the transition, when he’d say he had something on an evening, I’d say “Are you asking if I’m available to watch the kids?”  I changed the language and conversations to match. None of it was snarky or sarcastic and most of it was getting it into my head.  It worked well around here. 

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58 minutes ago, omishev said:

I don't view him as a babysitter but I think he might?? He can come home from work and say he's going out to mow the lawn or going running. If he walked in the door and I said I was doing anything other than watching the kids (without scheduling it in advance and reminding him during the day), I can't imagine the response! He makes the assumption that he has free time to do whatever he wants when he isn't at work. Now, often he chooses to spend that time with the kids, and that is awesome, but he views it as a choice. If I want to do anything I need to get it cleared ahead of time. He is always home for dinner we always put the kids to bed together, but he usually stands around watching the process or wrestling with them. If I specifically ask him to do something he might do it (but sometimes says no) and if I routinely ask him to do that same thing he might get to the point where he does it without me asking. After years of training he now is in the routine of contributing to getting get the kids ready for church. But he does not look around and see what needs to be done. He does not look at his weekend and think, "my wife might need an hour or two without the kids to get something done" and plan accordingly. If I have a legitimate obligation and give him notice he is happy to do something with the kids but I can't just say "can I have an hour to organize the basement?" and certainly not something frivolous like going shopping or working on a sewing project. Whatever he has to do is always more important.
 

Yes, you really can just say “I’m taking a couple of hours for myself. Have fun with the kids.” Then, you just go. Your needs are not frivolous. 

I think you know this and this is why you’re experiencing discontent. You’re a person with needs and wants and those deserve to be met just as much as your husband’s. And he doesn’t get to decide whether or not your wants and needs are legitimate. It’s perfectly legitimate for you to want to window shop, sip coffee in a bookstore, sew, or whatever you find relaxing and rejuvenating. 

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Omishev, what you need to do is important too. Sucking up your needs and desires and trying to be content is ultimately bad for you and your children. Even if you can't get your husband to go to counseling, you might want to consider it for your own well-being.

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1 hour ago, brehon said:

Yes, you really can just say “I’m taking a couple of hours for myself. Have fun with the kids.” Then, you just go. Your needs are not frivolous. 

I think you know this and this is why you’re experiencing discontent. You’re a person with needs and wants and those deserve to be met just as much as your husband’s. And he doesn’t get to decide whether or not your wants and needs are legitimate. It’s perfectly legitimate for you to want to window shop, sip coffee in a bookstore, sew, or whatever you find relaxing and rejuvenating. 

I agree with this, about 90%.  

But I do think it is wrong for anyone, husband or wife or whatever, to make assumptions about another person's availability.  So, when I was a stay home mom, I would never assume on a given night it would work for me to walk out the door with no notice beforehand.  I would expect the same from him: if he was not traveling, I would expect him home at his normal time, not two hours later because he decided to go out for a few drinks with coworkers (or whatever).  I would expect him not to go out after dinner without checking in with me first. 

So how it worked for me:  I would say "I need to get away from the kids; I want to go out tonight; does that work for you?"  Now, he would pretty much always say yes, but if he had a meeting or had to catch up on some work from his job that night, he was free to say no but always with a 'rain check' - "sorry, I have to do x tonight, how about tomorrow?"  And I would go the next day - even if I didn't feel like I needed it by then, I would go!   

Note that I was not asking permission to go out. I didn't need permission. But I did respect his time; in turn, he respected mine. 

That may have taken a heart-to-heart talk or three.  I honestly don't remember. I do remember a feeling of mutual respect about time, for the most part. 

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4 hours ago, omishev said:

I have read several blog posts that were shared by friends on facebook. The main point is equality in parenting and while I think some of the finer points are impractical (especially for nursing moms) overall that is a good goal to work towards as a society. However, telling that to moms isn't particularly helpful. If Daddy blogs were a big thing this message should be all over them! But reminding me that I "should" be receiving more help only breeds discontentment. 

A few years ago my friend shared her experience visiting an Indian family and it was very powerful. The mom did not sit and eat dinner with the family. It was their custom for mom to serve the meal, feed the kids etc and eat afterwards. In my current stage of life I spent most of the meal nursing or spoon feeding a baby, cutting food for the toddler, running to the kitchen to get someone seconds or condiments, utensils, water, washcloths etc. Effectively, I was doing the same thing this Indian mother was doing, serving her family and eating later. But the difference was in our attitudes. She was content because her expectations were met. I was very discontent because I expected to sit and eat dinner with my family, despite years of experiencing otherwise. 

 

 

Ah, that is very interesting.  I think there is some real truth in the idea that having defined roles an take certain kinds of pressure off.  There can be real downsides of course to very prescribed roles.  But there is a price to pay too for the freedom to negotiate anything at any time.

But as far as your dh, I think you probably need to tell him you will be taking a certain amount of time to yourself.

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1 minute ago, OKBud said:

 

Within an individual relationship? Like what?!

 

 

Negotiating can be very energy intensive, and people are not always very fair about it.  THe person with the greater will or who will dig in their heels the most can often prevail.  

 

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45 minutes ago, marbel said:

I agree with this, about 90%.  

But I do think it is wrong for anyone, husband or wife or whatever, to make assumptions about another person's availability.  So, when I was a stay home mom, I would never assume on a given night it would work for me to walk out the door with no notice beforehand.  I would expect the same from him: if he was not traveling, I would expect him home at his normal time, not two hours later because he decided to go out for a few drinks with coworkers (or whatever).  I would expect him not to go out after dinner without checking in with me first. 

So how it worked for me:  I would say "I need to get away from the kids; I want to go out tonight; does that work for you?"  Now, he would pretty much always say yes, but if he had a meeting or had to catch up on some work from his job that night, he was free to say no but always with a 'rain check' - "sorry, I have to do x tonight, how about tomorrow?"  And I would go the next day - even if I didn't feel like I needed it by then, I would go!   

Note that I was not asking permission to go out. I didn't need permission. But I did respect his time; in turn, he respected mine. 

That may have taken a heart-to-heart talk or three.  I honestly don't remember. I do remember a feeling of mutual respect about time, for the most part. 

In general, I agree with you. In the context of a mutually respectful relationship, checking in with one’s spouse about their time commitments certainly the best way to ensure good communication and ensure that everyone gets their needs and wants met (generally speaking, of course). 

My impression was that the OP’s husband was not being very considerate of her wants and needs unless he deemed them worthy of his time and she was trying develop contentment with the status quo. I certainly could have misread the OP. She may have meant that she doesn’t consider her needs to be of primary importance and is reluctant to ask her husband for time to herself. That’s a different conversation in that case. 

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2 hours ago, brehon said:

Yes, you really can just say “I’m taking a couple of hours for myself. Have fun with the kids.” Then, you just go. Your needs are not frivolous

And he doesn’t get to decide whether or not your wants and needs are legitimate. It’s perfectly legitimate for you to want to window shop, sip coffee in a bookstore, sew, or whatever you find relaxing and rejuvenating. 

 

Agree, the choice of words OP used made me feel sad.  So much judgement in those words.

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57 minutes ago, brehon said:

In general, I agree with you. In the context of a mutually respectful relationship, checking in with one’s spouse about their time commitments certainly the best way to ensure good communication and ensure that everyone gets their needs and wants met (generally speaking, of course). 

My impression was that the OP’s husband was not being very considerate of her wants and needs unless he deemed them worthy of his time and she was trying develop contentment with the status quo. I certainly could have misread the OP. She may have meant that she doesn’t consider her needs to be of primary importance and is reluctant to ask her husband for time to herself. That’s a different conversation in that case. 

Agreed.  What works for me, works for me because there is mutual respect.

But if (paraphrasing an example another poster used above) I wanted to go out and said "does this work for you?" and my husband said no because he wanted to change into PJs and hang out...well, that wouldn't work more than once.  If that sort of thing was happening, I probably would resort to having the car keys ready and saying 'buh-bye!' as he walked in the door from work.  

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2 hours ago, OKBud said:

 

Hmm. Things being "up for negotiation" doesn't mean that everything must be negotiated, which would be an energy sink. Things NOT being up for negotiation absolutely ensures that someone is acting like a jerk much of the time, though. 

Which brings us back to how much it bites to be married to a jerk, but people not married to a jerk shouldn't base anything about their lives on what people married to jerks must do to get by. 

 

In cases like the OP mentioned, I am not sure the jerk thing works in the same way.  You have your social role to play, and the expected way people do things, and that is just how it is done, it's not that your spouse personally is deciding you are stuck with it.  It can in some cases be protective because a jerk isn't really able to ask you to go outside your role and has obligations to the expectations of his own role.  (Though - a jerk always finds some way to assert himself...)

I think this on the one had can be extremely cloying and disheartening if you don't really have any interest or talent for whatever it is you are supposed to be doing.  But it also has a kind of stability to it, in the sense that people know their place, the expectations, what needs to happen for things to run smoothly.  And I suppose related to that, when roles are more fixed in this way, the rest of the society is often set up to account for that, whereas for us with all our flexibility, it sometimes seems like society is not set up to account for anyone.

Psychologically, there is a sense when certain things are simply what is, that you can make a sort of peace with them.  I used to find this when my dh worked away - while I had all the work, there was only me so no resentment over what he was doing or not doing.  But - I wonder if it can actually go farther than that - 

It's a bit fanciful, but I think for example of some societies that live in ancient hunter-gatherer or primitive agricultural modes.  Often the sex roles are pretty set, but then, everyone's roles are pretty set - work looks very similar for everyone, much the way it did for their ancestors and would for their descendants if they maintain that way of life.  I find myself wondering - are they really discontented because they don't have a chance to become a professional musician, or a doctor, or "find their authentic selves"?  My suspicion is that those people aren't more inclined to be discontented or unhappy than other groups people who have all kinds of choices.  So I'm just not sure how much our happiness is really about the ability to negotiate our social roles, either in a large or small social scale,  to suit our individual preferences.  I think there is some other element that may be more important at play, but I am not sure what it is.

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38 minutes ago, OKBud said:

I think you're erroneously conflating things that happen on a society-wide level, sometimes, and things that are apt to happen between two people in an unbalanced intimate relationship. 

 

How so?  The post was talking about social gender roles that are more closely observed than ours are. Now, who knows really about that particular couple but as far as what she seemed to be thinking about in terms of how that affects people -  I don't think that social norms of that type, or ones that are more like ours on the other hand, can help but impact relationships of individuals that live in those settings.  

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8 hours ago, omishev said:

I don't view him as a babysitter but I think he might?? He can come home from work and say he's going out to mow the lawn or going running. If he walked in the door and I said I was doing anything other than watching the kids (without scheduling it in advance and reminding him during the day), I can't imagine the response! He makes the assumption that he has free time to do whatever he wants when he isn't at work. Now, often he chooses to spend that time with the kids, and that is awesome, but he views it as a choice. If I want to do anything I need to get it cleared ahead of time. He is always home for dinner we always put the kids to bed together, but he usually stands around watching the process or wrestling with them. If I specifically ask him to do something he might do it (but sometimes says no) and if I routinely ask him to do that same thing he might get to the point where he does it without me asking. After years of training he now is in the routine of contributing to getting get the kids ready for church. But he does not look around and see what needs to be done. He does not look at his weekend and think, "my wife might need an hour or two without the kids to get something done" and plan accordingly. If I have a legitimate obligation and give him notice he is happy to do something with the kids but I can't just say "can I have an hour to organize the basement?" and certainly not something frivolous like going shopping or working on a sewing project. Whatever he has to do is always more important.
 

 

Now I understand better.  I am sorry to hear this is how your dh behaves.  I have no words of advice but I can offer virtual hugs and real prayers.

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On 3/20/2019 at 12:25 AM, hjffkj said:

Wth does bedtime involve that a grown man can't handle it, excluding a baby who is still breastfeeding and falls asleep to nursing?

He won't brush teeth because it's a pain. Early on he did not discipline so the kids don't respect him (he has since come a long way in expecting obedience but the damage is done) and things get out of hand fast. He loses his temper with them when he is on his own and is plagued by guilt for days.

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On 3/20/2019 at 7:12 AM, elroisees said:

I get some of what you are saying, op. And I agree that sometimes stay-at-home parents become discontent with the arrangements they themselves create. I think that's normal, because everyone grows over time and needs change as they and their kids grow. 

I notice that a lot of friction can occur when one person wants change and the other thinks it's all fine in the established pattern, especially if the way things are going is comfortable.

However, that one line about heart to heart conversation not changing anything... That's not good, sweetheart. Maybe the conversation style needs to change, maybe you need to be more clear about what you need/want, but yeah, deep heartfelt conversation from you should turn the family ship, IMO.

I appreciate you being gentle about it. If it doesn't go well he gets upset because he thinks he does contribute and I'm not appreciating the things he does. If it goes well, he is all on board, and I believe his heart is in the right place but he has a hard time following through. Many times a year he resolves to do xyz but his motivation quickly fizzled out. 

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13 minutes ago, omishev said:

Early on he did not discipline so the kids don't respect him (he has since come a long way in expecting obedience but the damage is done) and things get out of hand fast. 

 

When my kids were younger, my husband would say that I am the discipline mistress in our household. Both his parents were strict so he was up to mild pranks/misbehaving in public school and outside the home. However, our kids do respect him as a parent. They just think they have more leeway (try to argue or procrastinate) with him. For example, I just need to “yell” and kids would be in bed but they procrastinate unless my husband stands in front of them with an angry look. Anger management is something we are working on.

7 minutes ago, omishev said:

 If it goes well, he is all on board, and I believe his heart is in the right place but he has a hard time following through. Many times a year he resolves to do xyz but his motivation quickly fizzled out. 

 

Behavior or tasks? Change of habits/behavior is hard for my husband and me, we need tangible milestones along the way as motivation. My husband fizzle out on tasks because he sees his main role as provider and the extra non-scheduled things he does with kids as non-urgent. So he would drive kids to tennis and other weekly classes without fail. However, he would forget to carve out a time to do electronics fun with DS13 unless he gets reminded by DS13. I fizzle out on tasks because I get interested in lots of stuff so I have to keep a list and prioritize, and eliminate those unimportant tasks that I realize I am not as interested in (e.g. learning to knit well, I prefer to crochet).

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54 minutes ago, omishev said:

I appreciate you being gentle about it. If it doesn't go well he gets upset because he thinks he does contribute and I'm not appreciating the things he does. If it goes well, he is all on board, and I believe his heart is in the right place but he has a hard time following through. Many times a year he resolves to do xyz but his motivation quickly fizzled out. 

I should  have double quoted bc this has to do with his feeling guilty about losing his temper, too.  I'm not sure why you are trying to save him from the consequences of his immaturity?  Do you feel that he can't change and grow?  Lots of us have learned to control our temper bc we felt badly and knew it was wrong.  He won't learn to follow through if he never has a chance.  So, appreciate what he does do, but don't shield him from the fact that you actually don't think he's contributing (and this does vary by family and season) and that you are unhappy that he has freedom of time and movement that you don't.  Don't shield him, by "letting it go" that he won't brush teeth bc he thinks it's a pain.  It sounds like neither you nor he think he should be unhappy.

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23 hours ago, OKBud said:

 

Why not? What happens if you do say something along those lines? 

What happens if you hand him the baby and walk out of the house and get in your car and drive to the store?

He would say something like, "But I have to do xyz. The weekends are my only time." They watch TV most of the time I'm gone. I come home to clothes, toys and books all over the place and a sink full of dishes. 

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22 hours ago, elegantlion said:

Have you considered joining a meet up group or a sewing group so that you'd have a designated activity outside of the house. It could be a start. 

I teach a night class one night a week at the local university. I am home in time to help put the kids to bed. He has a hard time and is very stressed when I'm gone but it has been good for him to understand what I do all day. 

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22 hours ago, brehon said:

Yes, you really can just say “I’m taking a couple of hours for myself. Have fun with the kids.” Then, you just go. Your needs are not frivolous. 

I think you know this and this is why you’re experiencing discontent. You’re a person with needs and wants and those deserve to be met just as much as your husband’s. And he doesn’t get to decide whether or not your wants and needs are legitimate. It’s perfectly legitimate for you to want to window shop, sip coffee in a bookstore, sew, or whatever you find relaxing and rejuvenating. 

Thank you! I think it is really hitting me right now because this is the first time in 7 years I haven't been nursing. I thought I would have a lot more freedom once I stopped nursing and not much has changed.

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This is not the topic of this post, but from what you've shared in this thread combined with others, I think you should take a step back from the next baby, changing to homeschooling, fostering, etc. until you get some work done on the foundational relationship of the household. You will either have to accept things as they are or you will have to spend a lot of time into working with your dh on this relationship and your family dynamic. Either way, please think long and hard about adding stressful lifestyle changes when things already are not running in a way that works for you. At this point, you two may need a counselor to mediate the communication and follow-through for the two of you.

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18 hours ago, marbel said:

Agreed.  What works for me, works for me because there is mutual respect.

But if (paraphrasing an example another poster used above) I wanted to go out and said "does this work for you?" and my husband said no because he wanted to change into PJs and hang out...well, that wouldn't work more than once.  If that sort of thing was happening, I probably would resort to having the car keys ready and saying 'buh-bye!' as he walked in the door from work.  

I teach a night class one night a week at the local university and get home in time to put the kids to bed. One time we got out early so I went to the gym on campus and was still back home at the normal time. He was upset because I could have come home early and didn't. 

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11 minutes ago, omishev said:

He would say something like, "But I have to do xyz. The weekends are my only time." They watch TV most of the time I'm gone. I come home to clothes, toys and books all over the place and a sink full of dishes. 

To which you can reply—they are my only time, too. 

While the mess and TV are annoying, I would let that go and work on the problem of him seeing that you need free time, too. 

If you rescue him from the stress of putting them to bed, he had no reason to learn to cope. One thought is that it’s ok for him to have an easier routine than you. Kids adapt. Dh and I split kids or have traded nights putting them to bed. However, when they were young my routine was much much shorter—no stories, one song, teeth, prayers, kiss. That was bc he often had night meetings and a long bedtime routine was too much for me at the end of the day when alone. When he was home, he had more bells and whistles to his routine. You could flip that—dad’s routine is teeth, kisses, bed—no baths or stories.

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4 minutes ago, scholastica said:

This is not the topic of this post, but from what you've shared in this thread combined with others, I think you should take a step back from the next baby, changing to homeschooling, fostering, etc. until you get some work done on the foundational relationship of the household. 

 

I am also thinking that adding another baby to OP’s husband mind might mean okay if OP does all the work. I didn’t read the entire OP’s other threads about having another baby and about fostering.

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2 minutes ago, omishev said:

I teach a night class one night a week at the local university and get home in time to put the kids to bed. One time we got out early so I went to the gym on campus and was still back home at the normal time. He was upset because I could have come home early and didn't. 

Ok, he was upset. He can be upset.  Now, I can see a situation where I would have felt dh should have come to help out bc we were in a crazy time of life, but that doesn’t seem to be what is happening here. 

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1 hour ago, freesia said:

I should  have double quoted bc this has to do with his feeling guilty about losing his temper, too.  I'm not sure why you are trying to save him from the consequences of his immaturity?  Do you feel that he can't change and grow?  Lots of us have learned to control our temper bc we felt badly and knew it was wrong.  He won't learn to follow through if he never has a chance.  So, appreciate what he does do, but don't shield him from the fact that you actually don't think he's contributing (and this does vary by family and season) and that you are unhappy that he has freedom of time and movement that you don't.  Don't shield him, by "letting it go" that he won't brush teeth bc he thinks it's a pain.  It sounds like neither you nor he think he should be unhappy.

I don't want the kids to be treated like that.

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2 hours ago, omishev said:

He won't brush teeth because it's a pain. Early on he did not discipline so the kids don't respect him (he has since come a long way in expecting obedience but the damage is done) and things get out of hand fast. He loses his temper with them when he is on his own and is plagued by guilt for days.

This is not too late to change. Your kids are young and he needs to learn some tools, but he can do it.

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10 minutes ago, scholastica said:

This is not the topic of this post, but from what you've shared in this thread combined with others, I think you should take a step back from the next baby, changing to homeschooling, fostering, etc. until you get some work done on the foundational relationship of the household. You will either have to accept things as they are or you will have to spend a lot of time into working with your dh on this relationship and your family dynamic. Either way, please think long and hard about adding stressful lifestyle changes when things already are not running in a way that works for you. At this point, you two may need a counselor to mediate the communication and follow-through for the two of you.

Thank you for your thoughts. He has his ups and downs and definitely during the downs we don't need any additional stressors. 

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It sounds like he could use counseling. I’ve lost the train of whether he was open to that. According to family system’s theory, he can be helped even if he refuses and you go.  Because, for instance, just over the internet it’s tough to really know what’s going on.  Like my question above—what does it mean that you don’t want the kids treated like that? How does his losing his temper look?  How can you aid his growth, have respect and still keep your children safe? There is no one answer to that, but a counselor could help you come up with a plan.  It seems like you have a very fixed outlook on this—the only thing to do is be content.  But all changes can often lead to positive change. 

It does concern me that you don’t want him upset.  Again, I don’t know the details. I struggle with not wanting my family upset, but that’s bc I feel like I’m doing a good job of they are happy—which is totally my deal and I’m trying to work through it.  No one is being horrible to me if I don’t. I’m just uncomfortable when they are sad.  But I don’t know if this is what’s going on.

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6 hours ago, omishev said:

He would say something like, "But I have to do xyz. The weekends are my only time." They watch TV most of the time I'm gone. I come home to clothes, toys and books all over the place and a sink full of dishes. 

Re: the bolded — to which you reply “tough sh!t”.

Ok, ok... that’s probably not helpful. A better reply is “It’s my only time to <X>, too. See ya in a few.” <cheerful wave as you head out the door>

Ignore the toys, clothes, etc. Truly. You and the kids can pick up later. Yes, ideally your dh would supervise clean-up of messes made under his watch, but right now let it go. 

Y’all have some unhealthy dynamics and it’s going to take work to change them. Your dh has no impetus to change because the status quo favors him. He’s going to be upset by you insisting on being treated with basic respect as a co-equal member of the team. Let him be upset. Also, give him the blessing of learning from mistakes and growing into a better parent. (Assuming no actual abuse, of course.) 

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On 3/20/2019 at 12:20 PM, omishev said:

I wouldn't use the term "babysit" but I do say "will you watch the kids?"

 

I say, "I'm going out with friends Saturday night." I don't really address who is watching the kids because we are equal parents who do not need to ask if the other person will parent in our absence. This is reasonable to expect. (I'm the keeper of the family calendar and generally know if he has other plans.)

You've got a man who refuses to fulfill his obligation of co-parenting, and if he's forced to, mistreats the kids?? In such a way that he feels guilty for days afterwards?

First of all, this is completely unacceptable and just because it's not uncommon doesn't mean it's more ok.

Secondly, I agree with a previous poster who says that both of you seem to have the idea that he should not be unhappy, inconvenienced, or uncomfortable. But it's perfectly fine for you to be all three of these things.

Thirdly, he SHOULD feel guilty if he is mistreating the kids. And he should be an adult and make changes to how he interacts with them. We all have bad moments as parents, but this is not an excuse to simply decide we will parent less.

I would start by insisting that bed time is done calmly, cheerfully, and by BOTH of you. Each of you takes one part of the bed time routine, or divide up the children. Then I would talk about dividing up the weekend. EVERY weekend, you need a few hours to do what you want, without kids. If he needs to put the kids in front of the TV for the time being, so be it.

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Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts. I have been working on being more firm and not taking any crap along with politely requesting that certain things change and have seen progress. Yesterday I said, "I am going running with my sister tomorrow, do you want me to go right after church or later in the afternoon?" and all went well.

When he has said "no" to simple, reasonable requests (like getting a kid something at dinner) when he is already done eating and I have barely made a dent, I have quietly said, "Yes, you can. You are done eating and I am not." 

He sleeps in both days on the weekend (not sure how that got started, he doesn't work early/late hours) and he has been grumpy with us when he gets up. Yesterday I called him out on it and asked him to come out saying "thank you" for letting him sleep in. Lo and behold, today he did thank me and the day got off to a much better start! 

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27 minutes ago, omishev said:

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts. I have been working on being more firm and not taking any crap along with politely requesting that certain things change and have seen progress. Yesterday I said, "I am going running with my sister tomorrow, do you want me to go right after church or later in the afternoon?" and all went well.

When he has said "no" to simple, reasonable requests (like getting a kid something at dinner) when he is already done eating and I have barely made a dent, I have quietly said, "Yes, you can. You are done eating and I am not." 

He sleeps in both days on the weekend (not sure how that got started, he doesn't work early/late hours) and he has been grumpy with us when he gets up. Yesterday I called him out on it and asked him to come out saying "thank you" for letting him sleep in. Lo and behold, today he did thank me and the day got off to a much better start! 

This is a great way of framing it. It is polite and gives him a chance to speak up for the things he wants to make time for while still expecting him to contribute. 

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35 minutes ago, omishev said:

Thank you, everyone, for your thoughts. I have been working on being more firm and not taking any crap along with politely requesting that certain things change and have seen progress. Yesterday I said, "I am going running with my sister tomorrow, do you want me to go right after church or later in the afternoon?" and all went well.

When he has said "no" to simple, reasonable requests (like getting a kid something at dinner) when he is already done eating and I have barely made a dent, I have quietly said, "Yes, you can. You are done eating and I am not." 

He sleeps in both days on the weekend (not sure how that got started, he doesn't work early/late hours) and he has been grumpy with us when he gets up. Yesterday I called him out on it and asked him to come out saying "thank you" for letting him sleep in. Lo and behold, today he did thank me and the day got off to a much better start! 

This is good news and a great start. It may have seemed like we were all jumping on you telling you not to take it, but I think we were all outraged for you. I hope you continue to make progress and reach a point where you both get the time you need and he stops taking you and all you do for granted.

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