stealing food...and other things

[caedmyn]

My 7 YO and 5 YO steal/sneak food constantly. The 3 YO has started too. It's a this-tastes-good-and-I-want-it thing, not a hunger thing. They're obsessed with DH's diet pepsi. Taking pop-top canned pears and drinking a little of the juice (they are only strong enough to crack the top, not get it all the way open) and stashing them in bureau drawers for later has been a favorite too. They sneak food every single day, any time there's the opportunity, regardless of when and how much they last ate.

 

They steal money too. I have tried keeping all the money locked up where they can't get it, but somehow they keep finding change. They've stolen money out of my purse a few times too, stolen money off DH's desk. We've tried letting them have some quarters to carry around and play with...but they keep getting more somehow, bicker over them, and still try to take whatever other money they can find.

 

The 7 yo has stolen candy from a store twice in the last 6 weeks. Both times he had to return it and apologize. Today he stole a seashell from the babysitter's house. And then gave it to the girl next door so now I have to convince her to return it so he can return it.

 

We have tried any number of consequences and they just could not care less.

 

I found an old thread here about stealing food and it seemed like the big suggestion was to let them have free access to whatever food was in the house. I don't know if I'm willing to do this, because they have no self control. They would take all the pop in the fridge (DH will not stop buying it). They would take every last piece of fruit, all the nuts, basically whatever sounded good and eat it all in one day. DH likes to cook up a bunch of bacon at once and save it for salad toppings for a few days. They would clean it out. This is just not reasonable nor fair to other people in the house. Also, they all have some food intolerances, particularly the 3 yo who has food-intolerance-related reflux, and the reality is that they simply can't have every single item of food in the house. I will not restrict everyone to only the foods the 3yo can eat (btdt for too many years...no more). DH buys a lot of things everyone else has problems with, and this isn't going to change either. What else can I do? I'd be willing to let them have free access to some food if they would limit themselves to what I make available.

[Spryte]

You could make them snack baskets - refill them and give them free rein every day. Fill them with goodies and healthy snacks in baggies, and let them decide when to eat them?

 

Put the sodas where they can't reach them? Explain that they aren't old enough for soda? (My kid first tasted soda at 8, and all the youngers followed suit, so I don't have much experience with this, sorry.). That might not work if you allow soda at times.

[Farrar]

My experience with kids who steal food is that they're consistently underfed. Enough for kids is radically different than enough for adults. They genuinely need more fat, more calories, just a lot more. And some kids have much higher metabolism than others. I do think the first step of the solution is to more a lot more food openly available to them. And possibly to make sweets less of a forbidden fruit and more of a routine, if somewhat limited treat. I'm not sure how much dessert they typically get, but it sounds like maybe there are treats in the house but they don't get them and only see the adults having the soda.

 

Do you think the stealing food has led to the stealing in other arenas? Or do you think the stealing is the root problem and food is just one place it's manifesting? The stealing from a store would concern me a lot. That's a whole other level from stealing from the fridge. Where is the sense of scarcity coming from do you think?

[hornblower]

Well, honestly I'd say the biggest problem is your dh's unwillingness to make changes which will help your children. 

The other issues I'd consider are these: 

- are they bored? 

- are they getting attention by doing this? Are they 'naughty' and constantly in trouble? If so, this is something that requires a revamp in your parenting right from the ground up. 

- can you just get out the house way more? If you're out at a picnic, or a walk in the park, or a play session at the children's center, here's your pre-packed lunch and snacks and that's it. 

[hornblower]

I like what Farrar said above but also I had one more thought: 

I wonder if this is about issues of control. Sometimes I think this isn't about scarcity so much as about control. So I guess I'd want to know how much decision making and autonomy do you give them. 

[eternalsummer]

agree with all of the above.

 

we don't keep food in the house that anyone can't eat, or that everyone can't eat.  So there is no special food that is just for some people, or food that a person (except an adult, that is different) *can't* eat.  these things were done to DH as a kid and he hated it. (plus it just seems kind of strange to us)

 

our kids also will eat all of the "good" stuff - bacon, fruit, white bread/pastries, etc. - before the not as "good" stuff (beans, wheat bread, vegetables).

 

In practice what I do is only cook what is intended to be eaten at that sitting.  So if we're having bacon, we're all having it, and we're eating all of it right then.  If I buy cookies, I don't buy a week's worth of daily cookies - I just buy enough for each person to have a cookie, we have them when we get home from the store, and then there are no more cookies until the next time I go shopping.  There are some fruits I buy pretty much unlimited amounts of (clementines, apples, bananas) and those usually last 2-3 days after a grocery shopping trip.  Blueberries are all eaten the same day.  then there's normally a day or two without fruit until the next grocery store trip - for those two days, they usually settle for carrots and peas.  

 

the thing is, I work from home, and so does DH.  We don't have time (or I'm not willing to budget the time) to control the kids' eating habits constantly.  So the way I control them is buy buying things I'm happy for them to eat, in amounts I'm happy for them to eat them, and letting the rest learn to regulate itself.

 

Now as for the money and etc., I had one kid who was kind of a kleptomaniac at 3 or 4.  He just loved the jangle of change.  He had no idea what he planned to do with it and really no concept of money, so it was like stealing baubles.  We just had him give it back when we found it; he grew out of the phase with no real harm done.  I would just not take your 7 year old to stores until he is out of his stealing phase (this is a pretty good natural consequence, anyway).

 

Other than that, our kids have no inclination to steal money I think because A. we don't carry cash often, if at all (and never coins) and B. we don't let them have any money anyway.  They can't buy things on their own; they can't go places by themselves so how would they shop?  So we keep all the money and just buy them what they want if we think it is reasonable/affordable at the time.  Money is not something they think about.

[Ottakee]

Are these bio kids or adopted? That might change my answer.

[Arcadia]

The other issues I'd consider are these:

 

- are they bored?

 

- are they getting attention by doing this? Are they 'naughty' and constantly in trouble? If so, this is something that requires a revamp in your parenting right from the ground up.

 

- can you just get out the house way more? If you're out at a picnic, or a walk in the park, or a play session at the children's center, here's your pre-packed lunch and snacks and that's it.

:iagree: go for the root cause of stealing.

 

My younger brother was very attention seeking as a kid and would hide our stuff just to get our attention. It was so bad my public school teacher who lived nearby my childhood home knew that my brother hiding my homework from me is true. He just need way more attention than average to feel safe.

 

I have an open kitchen and money jars of pennies, quarters and dimes. My kids would ask if they aren't sure. My kids are allowed soda from a young age but it is rationed.

However they do act up when they are bored, or grouchy from not having slept well. Without getting to the root cause, my kids just stay "grouchy monsters".

[whitestavern]

I have kids that have done this (the eating the "junk" food) forever. We could never keep the stuff in the house. Spent years waiting for them to self regulate. Never happened. When it got to the point that I had to hide stuff, I said no more. Now I no longer buy anything "junkie". We eat very clean and they get their junk elsewhere.

 

My kids never ate that stuff because they were hungry or undernourished - lol. They just like the junk! We always have a ton of food in the house. But they want easy...if they have to cut up a fruit or veg, forget it. They'll eat a slice of bread instead.

[caedmyn]

They're not adopted. The 7 yo has very poor impulse control. He's been sneaking food and all sorts of other things since he was a toddler. The others just learn it from him. The 5 yo is very attention seeking. He's also oppositional and defiant and most of his communication these days consists of whining, arguing, sulking, or wailing. (Not because he has any problems at all with talking, he just chooses to be awful.) I would happily ship him off to boarding school for the next 13 years.

 

The money thing started when they found or were given a few quarters and DH let them buy gumballs from a vending machine. Now they can't seem to get it through their heads that they will not be allowed to buy anything with any money that turns up in their possession.

[caedmyn]

I look the food I really don't want them to have in the gun safe. The 5 yo is one digit away from having the 6 digit code to it down I learned the other day.

[caedmyn]

I've thought about snack baskets, but how do I keep them from taking things out of each other's baskets?

[bibiche]

Have you considered family therapy? Maybe working with a professional could get to the root of the problem.

[Farrar]

The fact that a kindergartener is motivated enough to be trying to get the code for the gun safe would concern me more than anything else you've said here. Perhaps you should consider keeping the guns with a trusted family member until you feel like this issue is resolved. And considering what you're saying here, I'd second looking into family therapy to get at the root of things.

 

As for snack baskets, you keep one basket for all the kids just filled with plenty of stuff. I know you're saying there are food issues and I think it's okay for different kids to have different diets most of the time, but look at the severity of the situation here. Everyone probably needs to be on the same diet. Adults included.

[LucyStoner]

I've thought about snack baskets, but how do I keep them from taking things out of each other's baskets?

We just have one snack basket on the table for them both and one in the fridge for them both. My niece and nephew use the baskets a lot as well.

 

If there's a limit on something, for instance cookies or the occasional pack of gummy worms, I will just tell them that it's 1 each and only put that number in. They know to comply with that because they don't want to face the ire of their sibling or cousin if they swipe a second of that snack. And because it there's a fight over some of the contents of the snack bin, I just won't be inclined to put those contents in for awhile.

 

They don't have unlimited access to just any food. I can't have them devour the dinner ingredients or whatever. But they do have unlimited access to healthy foods- cheese, fruit, veggies, yogurt, whole grain stuff. They learn to self regulate after awhile. Even my niece and nephew who face significant food insecurity learned to not gorge when they realized it wasn't going to run out so they could trust that there would be more later. My sons will often pick fruit or carrots or cheese over any "treat" type snacks offered because they know that when they want it that "treat" will still be there for them.

 

How often are you feeding them meals and snacks? If you aren't comfy with open access (not all parents are or can afford it), you may do better with offering food (more than just small snacks) 5-7 times a day rather than 3 times a day. Small kids have small tummies. They usually need a lot of food to grow but they can't absorb as much nutrition from large spaced out meals as effectively as more frequent smaller meals. I've read interesting research on how kids who were living with hunger did better on the same amount of food spaced out over the day than in 2-3 meals. Same number of calories, better outcomes for weight and growth.

[MEmama]

I look the food I really don't want them to have in the gun safe. The 5 yo is one digit away from having the 6 digit code to it down I learned the other day.

Wait, WHAT?! You lock up FOOD in your GUN SAFE?!

 

Gently, I agree that it sounds like family therapy might be a good idea.

 

And please, change the combination to the safe ASAP.

[LucyStoner]

As for dad's soda- I'd put it out of reach. Get a second fridge or a college fridge to store it in out of their sight or just pour warm cans over ice if a second fridge won't work. Cooked bacon? Put some of it in the snack basket (if you go that way) and then the rest out of sight in the fridge or in the second fridge with the bacon. Those are solvable barriers.

 

I wouldn't call it stealing to take food from their own house. You guys aren't roommates or co-workers who tape your names to your food on post it notes. Just dropping the mindset that they are "stealing" can help improve how you think about it and the messages you send out to them.

Edited July 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[bolt.]

I've got no experience with this, but I think I'd try a short-term super-abundance approach, to try to decrease the sneakiness of it all.

 

At the end of every meal, I'd ask, "Does anyone want pears? Nuts? Brownies? Bacon?" Perhaps hourly I'd announce snack time with high-interest suggestions. If I found a kid with food, I'd say, "Hon, I see you are having a snack time. Let's try shouting "Mommy (crazy name)! I want pears now! Can I have a snack?" // Reply, "Yes, child crazy name! Snacks are awesome!" (Pause) "Good job. Remember now, first you ask for your snack, then I say yes, then you put it in your mouth." (Grin) "What's that plan, child crazy name?" // "Yay! You got it (or almost got it). Snacks are awesome!"

 

If there were snacks I just couldn't handle involving in this short-term thing (perhaps soda) I'd keep them out of the house just briefly whole the shout-ask, always-yes procedure gets established. Then you could re-introduce it as an item you don't say yes to, but immediately suggest something else instead... Like a bowl of sprinkles. Those ages will totally abandon pop for a bowl of sprinkles.

 

Given a few weeks of no sneaking (because there's no need, because it's always yes) you can return to normal limits and less fantastic substitutions. Plus you will probably run out of many items, and that provides a concrete opportunity for a 'no' that kids will understand (and that sneaking won't solve).

 

The new habit (asking) will replace the old habit (sneaking), then you kinda bait-and-switch them by applying limits gradually.

 

(Oh, and please stop calling it stealing. They are family members, and they don't have any reason to believe that your family involves 2 "food owners" and 3 "non-food owners" -- They live there; they eat there; and they honestly think the food is theirs too. It is. Don't try to convince them otherwise. The issue is when and how they choose to eat which items -- not whether or not they have the right to own and consume household food. If you convince them they are a foodless minority, they will abdolutely keep "stealing" (it's an irresistible instinct to try to 'own' food) and probably add hoarding.)

Edited July 15, 2016 by bolt.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Maybe boredom, attention getting, hungry, etc.?  You said you both work from home.  Are they left to their own devices a lot while you are both doing that? 

[LucyStoner]

Everyone probably needs to be on the same diet. Adults included.

I agree with that. If I'm eating steak or bacon, they can eat steak or bacon. If we're having cake, there is cake for everyone.

 

Aside from adult beverages, the only food that isn't for everyone that is in the kitchen is stuff someone doesn't like to eat but others do. The yogurt, milk and most cheese is all for my husband and the kids. I don't touch it. The dairy free coconut milk ice cream? It's mine because they have their own cream based ice cream. Stuff like that.

 

Soda is a gray area for me because I understand how an adult might be addicted to caffeine and not ready to give it up but how they don't want their kids to get addicted to it. That's why I'd put it in a secondary fridge if in the OPs situation. I guess I see it like my husband's coffee. I'm not brewing it up for the 7 year old just because it's in the house, lol.

 

ETA that we do have things that are just for the adults but if it is something the kids would envy or want, it's not something we are eating when they are present and awake. I am doing this way less though because it's better for me if I'm not giving myself unlimited access to stuff they can't have- I need to drop some pounds.

Edited July 15, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Farrar]

Yeah, the soda is tough. I mean, generally speaking, I think it's okay for adults to have a few things kids don't. And I certainly don't take a hard line in our house about everyone having to have the same treats available or being able to eat the same things. The thing that would concern me is the way the OP doesn't seem to see that there's a problem there. I think getting everyone on the same food in the case has to be a solution on the table, just because the situation is seems serious enough.

 

This is a good point everyone is making about not calling it stealing when it's within the house. I was thinking of kids who take everyone else's food all the time (you know the kids I'm talking about - the ones who eat all the food you brought for your family at park day before you even realize what happened). But taking from the store or another house is definitely stealing. What a tough situation.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

What happens if you give them all undivided attention and tend to them throughout the day for every little thing, much as you'd have to do if you were a childcare provider or nanny?

 

Fixing and serving all their meals, supervising them through cleanup, moving them through the day with appropriate activities, exercise, storybooks, rest; all this under 100% constant supervision?

 

I ask because I'm wondering if they would defy you if you tried to stop them in the moment of sneaking or destroying...or trying to get into the gun safe. Are they doing this when you're not looking or when you are?

 

And I must add my voice to those saying that if you have guns in the home with this low level of control going on, get the guns out tonight. Pro gun rights here (although I don't have them in the home) but if your children are TRYING to break into the gun safe and you can't control them at the pear juice level, either, get the guns out. Now. I realize this may offend you but I'm trying to show you how it looks from the outside -- it looks like a chance to prevent a tragedy.

[Carrie12345]

Well, I can tell you that free reign has never improved the food situation for my 5 and 9yos, and it has killed my grocery budget.

 

And I'm not talking junk food.  I'm talking loaves of whole wheat bread, jars of unsweetened peanut butter, entire bags of string cheese, a dozen bananas, giant bags of carrots, whole bags of granola, canisters of oats, countless hard boiled eggs... and junk food when available.  They're 4 years and 3 pounds apart, so one's a brick house and the other is extremely thin, like his father.  They get regular, healthy meals, and their (OUR) week's worth of snacks can disappear in less than 2 days.

 

The only remedy in our house is to keep them busy and keep them supervised.

And plan to spend extra money when I can't dedicate myself to that.

[TeenagerMom]

I'm gonna be honest and say you need to make food a non-issue because if you are locking food in a safe, it is a VERY big issue.  Food is food and if one is hungry, they should eat.  We don't even have set meal times.  There is food in the kitchen and you eat when you are hungry.  I cook one very big dinner each night and the leftovers go in the fridge for anyone to eat when they want.  We only keep fruit & veggies for snacks as well as popcorn & protein bars.  That's it.  And they can eat as much as they want of those things....or leftovers.  Or they can pop a can of ravioli in the microwave, make a peanut butter sandwich, etc.....whenever they want.

 

 

I had the mindset that you did and I had an 11 year old in the kitchen sneaking food at night. Then I realized it WAS a control issue. 

 

I let go. 

 

Once they had free reign, they stopped taking food constantly because they KNEW it was available whenever they wanted.  It did take a few months.  I did have to say A LOT, I'm sorry that we are out of........because you ate it all already.  They did learn to regulate.

 

My kids are both healthy eaters with healthy weights now at 16 & almost 14.  They almost never snack now.

[LucyStoner]

Reading your signature, I see that you have an older child who is 10 whom you do not mention as being included in this issue. What do you think is different between the older child and the younger three?

[MomatHWTK]

If a small child has impulse or defiance issues, then it is up to the parent to learn how to help that child. You don't get to birth them and then ship them off if they aren't what you'd hoped for. Family therapy is definitely in order. Your house is out of control and it isn't the fault of the children. They weren't born to raise you. 

[barnwife]

Well, our kids just went through a sneaking junk phase. They took anything junky: crackers, candy, chocolate chips intended for baking. We had these things in a little used cabinet that I can barely reach. It's a "mom place." That's a place where only I am allowed (at least, theoretically!).

Our solution is that there is no junk in the house.

While it'd be great to have some, it's not worth the hassle for us. 

We will try having some of these things again in a few months. 

And, OP, if your child knows most of the code to the gun safe I can't for the life of me figure out why you haven't changed it. 

[Loowit]

My kids do not have free access to food.  They have to ask before getting things.  We have a limited budget and kids with dietary issues.  We have a very open floor plan so I can see them if they go into the kitchen, unless I am in the bathroom or my bedroom.  I have only had a couple instances of kids taking food when they weren't supposed to and it was dealt with by talking with them about it and that if they are hungry to come talk to me and we can find them a snack.  If it had been ongoing we would have perhaps locked up food so they didn't have access.

 

It sounds like it is much more than food though.  Is your child with oppositional defiance in any therapy or treatment?  My youngest has ODD and was in therapy for several years, he is now doing much better.  He never was into stealing, but had other behaviors that negatively effected the family.  This sounds like your situation is something that needs professional help outside your family.

 

I would definitely change the combo to the gun safe asap.

[Spryte]

And, OP, if your child knows most of the code to the gun safe I can't for the life of me figure out why you haven't changed it.

I can't either.

 

The only way I can make sense of this is if there are no guns in the safe? OP, are there actually guns in this safe, or are you just using it for food?

 

Please, if there are guns - this needs to be fixed.

 

Family therapy is an excellent idea. You'll get lots of support and ideas there.

[StephanieZ]

7, 5, and 3?

 

I think they need a lot more supervision for a period of time to break these habits. For a while, keep them in your sight (or dh's sight) when they aren't sleeping. I know it's a pain, but this is a formative stage and some very bad habits are forming.

 

And, I'd be sure to set aside a shelf in the fridge and another in the pantry for "self-serve snacks". I'd be sure to stock them with things that are reasonably healthy and also tasty, and keep a variety there, including some treats. When they want a snack, for now, I'd supervise them helping themselves to the self-serve snacks until it becomes a habit. When my kids were tiny, I had a bin in the fridge for this. With you kids' ages, I'd have a shelf or drawer in a pantry as well as a place in the fridge. I put in those tiny "snack size" ziplocks -- raisins, nuts, other dried fruit, string cheese, other small cheeses (the little triangle Laughing Cow ones are good as are the little red was wrapped round ones, little yogurts, crackers, fruit, trail mix, etc. Be sure to keep plenty of choices in there and have it well stocked at all times. That will eliminate the hunger issue.

 

They can learn the rule that they can self-serve THOSE things, but anything else needs to be served by Mom or Dad, period.

 

Personally, I did not and would not allow kids of that age to drink diet pop (or caffeinated pop) PERIOD. So, I'd make that a firm rule. I treated caffeinated and diet drinks like I did alcoholic drinks. NO, just NO. If needed, I'd consider getting a separate fridge for sodas/alcohol/etc in the garage (or wherever) and lock it. If it was in the garage or a room you could keep locked, that'd be easier than figuring out how to lock a fridge. :) 

 

And, OMG, you hide food that the kids want in WITH GUNS? In the "gun safe"?? That sounds like a "gun dangerous" to me!! Please, for God's sake, do NOT DO THAT. I want to whack you on the head. That is not only foolish, it is dangerous to a degree that I fear for your lives and those of your neighbors. Please, please, right now change the gun safe code and remove all the food from it, and make sure your kids know that 1) there is no longer any food in there and never will be. and 2) If they touch the gun safe EVER, hell will rain down on them -- that is ONLY for grownups EVER to touch. and 3) really, can you just move the guns somewhere else (to a relatives's home?) until/unless you get control of your house?

 

 

 

 

 

[snickerplum]

One of our did that (well, not from the store). It was never ever about being hungry. She had plenty to eat. She did (and still does) eat more than me. Maybe it was control? Or just the thrill of taking?

I think it's perfectly acceptable to have food or beverages that are not for the children. And OP's children are old enough to understand.

I knew a lady whose child was taking small things from stores. One time a police officer was there, and the store clerk asked him to speak with the child. Nothing big or crazy scary, just talk about theft and things. That child never stole again.

It's a fine line. Like someone said upthread, you don't want to create weird thoughts or actions with food. But also, if you've said no to something they really need to listen.

[lllll]

They're not adopted. The 7 yo has very poor impulse control. He's been sneaking food and all sorts of other things since he was a toddler. The others just learn it from him. The 5 yo is very attention seeking. He's also oppositional and defiant and most of his communication these days consists of whining, arguing, sulking, or wailing. (Not because he has any problems at all with talking, he just chooses to be awful.) I would happily ship him off to boarding school for the next 13 years.

 

The money thing started when they found or were given a few quarters and DH let them buy gumballs from a vending machine. Now they can't seem to get it through their heads that they will not be allowed to buy anything with any money that turns up in their possession.

 

At those ages - 7, 5, and toddler - I definitely think they need very close supervision.  

 

Also, I'm not understanding ... are they actually hungry?  Or is this some kind of game for them?  It would help to have more information, unless you'd rather not, which is fine.

 

And I'm thinking that if I had kids stealing from neighbors and stores, I'd keep them out of those places for quite a while until they'd had a chance to mature some.  That, or only take them when my dh could go with me so that between the 2 of us, we could stick to them like glue to prevent that behavior.

 

Another thing I think might help is if you kind of changed your way of thinking about this.  If I may ask, what does your dh say about the dc's behavior?

 

 

[Liz CA]

The super abundance approach bolt suggested sounds like an interesting experiment that might actually work.

However, have you introduced your children to the concept of stealing (more concerning the money than food) and what is right or wrong?

Seven and five year olds should already have a basic understanding of lying, stealing and right or wrong.

Do they know these concepts and are unconcerned? Do they think taking money from Mom/Dad without permission is okay?

 

You can turn this around - they are young...but I believe there may be underlying issues that a child therapist will be able to discern better.

 

Edited July 15, 2016 by Liz CA

[HomeAgain]

Sounds like you've gotten all bases covered here:
-give them access to what they can have.

-give them constant supervision, keep them busy.

-it's time to start allowances

-control what you can; in this case it's proactive solutions that you can implement without taking into account their behavior to make the solutions work.

[IfIOnly]

I used to steal food at hide in the closet to eat it as a kid. I do have a high metabolism and that may have been why I was hungry. I'm not sure why I didn't just ask though? Weird.

 

Do your kids get enough fat and protein each meal? That makes all the difference for me with regards to feeling satisified and full after and between meal times. I was surprised the first time I started tracking my meals to find that I wasn't getting adequate protein. Fat is so important to, especially to growing children. You might enter in a day or two of their daily food intake to find out where they're at with macronutrients.

[Monica_in_Switzerland]

What happens if you give them all undivided attention and tend to them throughout the day for every little thing, much as you'd have to do if you were a childcare provider or nanny?

 

Fixing and serving all their meals, supervising them through cleanup, moving them through the day with appropriate activities, exercise, storybooks, rest; all this under 100% constant supervision?

 

I ask because I'm wondering if they would defy you if you tried to stop them in the moment of sneaking or destroying...or trying to get into the gun safe. Are they doing this when you're not looking or when you are?

 

And I must add my voice to those saying that if you have guns in the home with this low level of control going on, get the guns out tonight. Pro gun rights here (although I don't have them in the home) but if your children are TRYING to break into the gun safe and you can't control them at the pear juice level, either, get the guns out. Now. I realize this may offend you but I'm trying to show you how it looks from the outside -- it looks like a chance to prevent a tragedy.

 

 

 

Yes, yes, yes, to this.  I am pro-gun.  Grew up with guns.  My brother and I weren't to step foot in the room when my dad was dialing in the code on the gun safe!  I mean, holy smokes, this is a very dangerous situation!!!

 

Regarding the food, I thought this was going to be a no-big-deal type situation, but reading your posts, I see it is a totally out of control situation.  You need to radically alter your home life, at least temporarily, for the good of your kids.  Therapy is a great suggestion as well.  

 

Personally, I am not a "free access to healthy snacks" parent.  I don't think it is necessary for raising healthy kids.  But I do provide three solid meals and 1-2 healthy snacks each day.  1-2x a week, we either buy or make a sweeter snack.  But with four kids and 2 adults, one batch of cookies equals one snack time.  Or at the store, I only buy enough for one snack, as a PP mentioned.  If I want a coke, I buy one at the store and drink it that day upon returning home.  

 

I would suggest that your DH hide his coke in the trunk of his car, but that would have the kids stealing your car keys!!!  So don't do that.  

 

I second all the advice to drop everything and provide hyper-vigilant surveillance from now until the problem is resolved, however long it takes.  It's your first priority.  In the mean time, get rid of all the junk that pulls them.  No more canned fruit, snack mixes, etc.  

[Ausmumof3]

The fact that a kindergartener is motivated enough to be trying to get the code for the gun safe would concern me more than anything else you've said here. Perhaps you should consider keeping the guns with a trusted family member until you feel like this issue is resolved. And considering what you're saying here, I'd second looking into family therapy to get at the root of things.

 

As for snack baskets, you keep one basket for all the kids just filled with plenty of stuff. I know you're saying there are food issues and I think it's okay for different kids to have different diets most of the time, but look at the severity of the situation here. Everyone probably needs to be on the same diet. Adults included.

This... Given that you have a child that currently does a whole lot of stuff without permissions you need to do something about making those guns inaccessible like yesterday. Gun safe needs to be in a location they can't go and watch the code being entered or out of your house completely. My four year old figured the iPad password out from watching so yours are going to work out the safe code

 

In the initial issues which are far less concerning I don't think I would even think to frame them as stealing other than the candy from the store. Kids this age are a bit like crows and magpies - they collect stuff just because. My 7yo would probably know better now but definitely not the almost five year old. Best thing is to take good care of all money -

The kondo lady includes coins in that... And start teaching the value of money. If they are just taking the coins out of a collecting habit definitely it's not big deal. If they do have a sense of money as something to buy stuff with it's time to start teaching them the ethics... I have pretty big conversations with mine about how money doesn't just come from the atm it represents a certain number of hours worked etc. as for food I don't have adult only stuff in our house other than alcohol. Best way to stop kids eating junk is not have it in the house or only have enough to share out a portion for everyone. I think it's unfair for adults to expect kids to adhere to a healthier diet than they are willing to eat anyway.

 

The stealing from the store would bother me majorly but I think it means closer supervision in store or no kids shopping trips needed. They shouldn't have the opportunity to swipe and sneak candy from the shops.

[Melissa in Australia]

 

I second all the advice to drop everything and provide hyper-vigilant surveillance from now until the problem is resolved, however long it takes.  It's your first priority.  In the mean time, get rid of all the junk that pulls them.  No more canned fruit, snack mixes, etc.  

:iagree:  :iagree: :iagree:  :iagree:  :iagree:  

 

we have a light fingered child. for him  it was the thrill of the steal, not to get the possessions. Completely different situation though as he is a foster child. and turn out all his siblings in other placements also are /have been light fingered. for us what worked was when caught steeling he had to stay right at my side, holding my hand for a period of time and for the rest of the day stay in whatever room I am in right near me. Completely different to your situation though. He hasn't stole anything for about 3 months. and now will find things that he would have stolen before and bring them to me and tell me that it wasn't in a good place because a "little boy" might take it so he thought he had better bring it to me. He gets extensive praise for this.

 

I agree with getting rid of the junk food  and soft drinks completely and having more food available to fill empty tummies. as well as changing the gun safe code and making the room with the gunsafe out of bounds.

[Rachel]

I agree with what was said above.

 

What does a typical meal look like? Do you put a lot of emphasis on treats? I have a few thoughts.

 

Are you the same poster that was having trouble with the boys destroying things outside and getting into dad's tools?

[SKL]

One of my kids has had issues like this off and on.  It's a very difficult problem.  No, it's not because they are underfed or malnourished.

 

My first step would be to talk to them in an open-minded way, not threatening, asking them why they feel like they need to do this.  You might find out something interesting that you can work with.

 

One thing that is an issue for one of my kids is that she eats in small amounts, so she gets hungry before the next meal.  I have talked to her about this and advised her to work on recognizing her need to eat and going and getting herself a permitted snack when she feels the need.  There are many snacks that are OK for her to eat without asking - cheese, yogurt, fruit, vegetables, skinny pop, nuts, etc., and she is also allowed to make herself mini meals such as toast between meals.  These are things a 5 / 7 year old can do if taught.

 

My kid has a sweet tooth coupled with sugar sensitivity.  So I bought candies sweetened with stevia, and she can have them whenever she wants them.  While she is allowed to eat these whenever she wants, I ask her to let me know vs. hiding; but I still find ample evidence of sneaking.  Like I said, it's a tough problem.

 

She had a few incidents of taking other kids' snacks at school.  In addition to supplying her with snacks to keep in her locker and eat any time, I arranged with the principal to give her a job to do at school for about a week.  (This was in lieu of the standard punishment of a half day in-school suspension i.e. sitting on a chair in the office all morning.)  It seemed to get through to her.  At least I hope so.  We haven't had an incident of actual stealing since then.

 

The thing is you need to balance "don't" with "do," "can" with "can't."  You want your kids to have choices and feel satisfied, and here are all the things they are allowed to have.  It can still take a long time for your kids to realize that they don't have to sneak in order to fulfill their needs.  Actually it's been about 4 years since I first noticed hoarding behavior and to this day I still find wrappers in odd places.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

Soda is a gray area for me because I understand how an adult might be addicted to caffeine and not ready to give it up but how they don't want their kids to get addicted to it. That's why I'd put it in a secondary fridge if in the OPs situation. I guess I see it like my husband's coffee. I'm not brewing it up for the 7 year old just because it's in the house, lol.

 

I agree with pretty much every word Katie has said in this thread.  This too.  I think it's fine for adults to have things that kids can't have, as long as the kids are either old enough to understand they can't have it and respect that, or the parents keep it put away where the kids can't access it. 

 

Sometimes it's a mix, though.  We don't lock up the liquor because our kids know they can't have it.  (They are older teens now, but even when they were little we never had the need to hide it.  They knew they weren't to have it and it wasn't attractive to them.)   But everyone likes chocolate and everyone can eat it, so when I get some special chocolate for my husband, he keeps it in his office.  I would get a dorm fridge and keep the soda in there, in a room the kids don't go in.  Or, put a lock on it.  But, soda is hard if the kids have it occasionally.  Why does Dad get it more often?   It's not like liquor in that it's just an adult beverage. So you will have to figure that out, or have your husband drink it away from home, or when the kids are in bed.

 

I do have one kid who has a terrible sweet tooth and will eat up all the candy/cookies/whatever.  So we have worked on serving sizes and at times I've portioned out the M&Ms (for example) in a baggie with each person's name on it.  That helped that child regulate, because they would see that others had M&Ms for a week while theirs were all gone in a day.    Even now, sometimes I will have that child pull out a measuring cup to portion out ice cream, to see what a reasonable serving is.  (Sometimes we all need reminders of what a reasonable serving size is!)  You may want to just remove all treats for a while though. 

 

We don't call it stealing when someone takes more than their share of the family food.  We did/do talk about the need to moderate our eating and the fact that unless they are doing all the cooking, they don't know what is being saved for a specific use. 

 

Do you have a good relationship with your pediatrician?  That might be a good place to start to look for solutions and further help.  I doubt you would be telling the doc anything he/she hasn't heard before. 

 

And sorry to pile on, but - get the food out of the gun safe!  Aside from the obvious danger, that is probably having the effect of making the food even more desirable.  And change that combination!  How is the child getting close enough to see you enter the combination?  

[regentrude]

I think this is not about food, and changing the approach to food (albeit necessary) will not address the underlying issue. 

The OP has posted about her children before: 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/587070-keeping-little-boys-out-of-trouble-outdoors/

 

and mentioned "The big problem is that they don't follow the rules about anything"

 

This leads me to believe that this is a situation that warrants professional help from a qualified therapist, not parenting advice on an online forum.

Edited July 15, 2016 by regentrude

[sarasue7272]

Why can't they have any money of their own? Why aren't they permitted to buy anything at the store? Do you have rules in place about found money? At my house, coins found on the floor are fair game, except from a sibling's bedroom. When a kids sees coins or paper money on my dresser for the first time, I just say "you can keep coins you find on the floor, but money on my dresser is mine." I would sa the same thing about money in my purse. We also have talks occasionally about where and how we get money and what it's for - it's the reason daddy is at work and it buys the food! I would not call it stealing if the don't really know and understand the boundaries of what's yours vs theirs.

 

They just put the money in their piggy banks. Sometimes my five year old plays with it. If they remembered to take it to the store, I would certainly let them buy something.

We don't do allowances, mostly because I haven't worked out the logistics for our family.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I don't care if my kids take coins.  Coins are so annoying.  I often tell the younger kid he can collect any coins he finds in the house and I'll bring them to the Coin Star and give him the money. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I think this is not about food, and changing the approach to food (albeit necessary) will not address the underlying issue. 

The OP has posted about her children before: 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/587070-keeping-little-boys-out-of-trouble-outdoors/

 

and mentioned "The big problem is that they don't follow the rules about anything"

 

This leads me to believe that this is a situation that warrants professional help from a qualified therapist, not parenting advice on an online forum.

 

I remembered that thread, too. I agree. We can point out immediate things (like about the gun safe) but sometimes families need in-real-life support and this is one of those times.

 

OP, I hope you will consider seeking some of the support you need within your community.

[regentrude]

I remembered that thread, too. I agree. We can point out immediate things (like about the gun safe) but sometimes families need in-real-life support and this is one of those times.

 

The gun safe thing alone would be a huge red flag for me.

Not just the fact that the mother is hiding food in there, which is a dangerous idea, but also that the child knows most of the combination. How the heck does something like this happen?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yeah I think each behavior alone is not a big deal, but all the various things that are going on added up would concern me, and I'd probably get professional help.

 

 

[EmseB]

To me the other red flag was being happy to ship the 5yo off to boarding school. I have those days, but if it is every day, the kid is likely sensing this rejection, and then acting out with attention-seeking behavior to mitigate the fact that he knows his mother does not want to be around him.

 

OP - In your shoes I would be looking for help with possible depression for myself, and some family counseling to help everyone behave in a more healthy way. If DH doesn't want to participate, you should go anyway with the kids and on your own. Of course all this is easy to say as an internet stranger, but I think you need more help with deeper issues than you can find here.

[zoobie]

You need professional assistance, and ASAP with a baby coming soon. Find an au pair or nanny to give you extra hands and eyes for your older kids when the baby comes. Your kids need more supervision and attention. Will they be in school in the fall? 

 

In the short term, get rid of the guns. Today.

 

I'd also get rid of the diet sodas and anything you don't want them eating. Dad can have sodas outside the house. Plenty of adults have willpower issues around food. Get it out of the house. Go out for treats. Make sure the kids are getting enough fats and aren't hungry. Don't take the child who's stealing things to the store or other people's houses anywhere you can't supervise him constantly. By that I mean holding his hand, being 100% focused on him. He's 7, and in many areas, the store owners can press charges. You're setting him up for failure.

 

 

The 5 year old with ODD and ADHD--what does his treating doctor think?

 

[Seasons]

I have a bowl of bananas, apples, and cherry tomatoes sitting on the counter in the kitchen year round(these are his favorites).  My son can eat whatever he wants from that bowl whenever he wants without asking.  All other food and beverages, except for milk and water, are off limits unless he has permission.