What are your goals for your kids, as far as college?

[Storygirl]

DH went to an Ivy League school, and I was a high achiever and had a full-tuition scholarship to a liberal arts college (one of the Colleges That Change Lives). DH's school name on his resume definitely was noticed in job searches, and helped him get his current position, though he also struggled to find work right after graduation, so the college name is not an instant ticket to success. Also, I loved my college experience, and he did not and wishes in hindsight that he had picked a smaller LAC.

DH was recruited for football, and sports was definitely a reason that he was selected for admission to his college. But that was over 30 years ago, so today's experiences will differ. DH dropped football after his first year. He found that he couldn't be both a good student there and also be on the team.

Although both of us were highly academic, our children are not. I believe in the college experience, and I also believe it's not right for everyone. There is absolutely no pressure from anyone in our extended family regarding our children's futures, and I don't have close friends who have any interest in their kids going to selective universities, so I have not experienced any of that pressure described by the OP.

However, I have kids who have excelled at some specific things and have needed some specific guidance that is beyond the norm, and I have found myself caught up in researching and thinking through possible paths for them. I have had to catch myself and keep myself from being personally over invested in THEIR future.

For DD20, this was ballet; she was a serious dancer with potential to go pro, and she ended up with an injury as a teen that was not recommended for surgery. She stopped dancing at age 16.

For DS17, his special interest is guitar, which is an atypical instrument for college study. Not only does music require special preparation for auditions, but there are limited places to go for guitar. We may be looking at some options for him that were totally unanticipated when he was in middle school.

I think there is reason to do extra research and help for college prep for students with particular interests such as sports or arts, which they may continue in college, or which will be audition or recruitment based. Because the experience may be different for them, and parents should understand what lies ahead. Teens don't always understand what it will take to get to their goal and may need help from parents in decision making, But also, be cautious about being sucked into being a parent who guides a child onto such a narrow parent-defined path that the teen feels stifled or doesn't feel that s/he can be their full self or explore the full range of their interests. This can be really tricky when invested in an activity that absorbs a lot of time and money.

[Shoeless]

DS14 and I talked awhile back about what it takes to get into an elite school and what his teen years would look like, if that were his goal. He declined that route and I am a-ok with that. 

Right now he talks about going to culinary school. I'd like him to do dual enrollment for gen eds at the CC, work, maybe travel, and THEN decide if culinary school is the right path.  I think he needs to see more of life before deciding what to do with his. I am getting a strong trade school vibe from him, which is fine with me. 

My family of origin is very "omg, college at any cost!!!" and some of them have the student loans to prove it. There is spoken and unspoken pressure and judgement of those that do not follow a traditional college and white collar job path. But I can't say that any of them are substantially happier than my DH, who has a GED and is self-educated. He, uh, also out-earns some of the lawyers and doctors in the family, which is a bitter pill for them to swallow. 

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, MissLemon said:

DS14 and I talked awhile back about what it takes to get into an elite school and what his teen years would look like, if that were his goal. He declined that route and I am a-ok with that. 

Right now he talks about going to culinary school. I'd like him to do dual enrollment for gen eds at the CC, work, maybe travel, and THEN decide if culinary school is the right path.  I think he needs to see more of life before deciding what to do with his. I am getting a strong trade school vibe from him, which is fine with me. 

My family of origin is very "omg, college at any cost!!!" and some of them have the student loans to prove it. There is spoken and unspoken pressure and judgement of those that do not follow a traditional college and white collar job path. But I can't say that any of them are substantially happier than my DH, who has a GED and is self-educated. He, uh, also out-earns some of the lawyers and doctors in the family, which is a bitter pill for them to swallow. 

Ds21 did the culinary vo tech path.  He still loves to cook but he does not do it for a living. 

[Shoeless]

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Ds21 did the culinary vo tech path.  He still loves to cook but he does not do it for a living. 

I suspect that DS14 won't end up at culinary school in the long run. 

I can see him being an actuary or an accountant. Those fields go along with the kind of life he says he wants. Running a restaurant does not. 

Time will tell!

[Scarlett]

Just now, MissLemon said:

I suspect that DS14 won't end up at culinary school in the long run. 

I can see him being an actuary or an accountant. Those fields go along with the kind of life he says he wants. Running a restaurant does not. 

Time will tell!

Yes, now ds21 is working at lowes.  I went over all the things about restaurant work….you work while everyone plays, the pay is not great, etc. it only took about a year for him too be burned out.   but I can’t say he regrets his 2 years at vo tech.  He actually loved it and was some of his favorite times.  He learned a lot about cooking.  

[Storygirl]

I have four kids, aged 20, 18, 17, and 17, so college is a big deal in our family right now.

DD20 wanted to go to college but was not really helpful about figuring out where to go. I played a larger role in her college-search process than I wanted to and felt like I was dragging her along, which was not fun! She ended up applying to one school at my suggestion, and that's it, and that's where she went, and she is happy there (it's a school that many of DH's family members have attended). DD has changed her major from exercise science to nursing, with our encouragement, which will take her an extra year. She has wanted to go to physical therapy school, and she can still do that with a nursing degree, but if she doesn't follow through, nursing has a better employment outcome than an exercise science degree. This was a hard, hard decision for her. DH and I talked about it a lot with her over the past year. Although she is choosing her own path in life, she in particular still benefits from some guidance. She's not thrilled about a fifth year of college but is happy with her decision.

I suppose that reflects our goals for her. We want her college degree to prepare her for a decent job. I was an English major, and though I loved it, it didn't prepare me for a specific job, and I wish I had added on a practical double major for myself. I'd like my kids to learn from my experiences, though they don't always like to listen my advice.

DS18 is not a candidate for college. He has learning disabilities and academically works around a middle school level. He hates school and doesn't want to go to college. We are working to help him figure out a path for work after graduation this spring, but it's tricky, and we don't know yet how things will go for him, If he ever does any college work, it will be later in life and would just be some kind of certificate, but he may never go at all.

DS17 is a junior who wants to study guitar in college. But he is also realistic about obtaining a career in performance and so wants to double major in music technology. There is a nearby program at a private college that is a great choice for him. He also is interested in auditioning for the number one guitar program in the country. Not only is a long shot, but it's super expensive. Even so, we will let him try. We are tempering his expectations but not refusing him a chance to dream.

DD17 is a junior who started in the cosmetology program at the career center this fall and is loving it. I have no idea whether she will want to go right to work or will want to go to college. We are putting no pressure on her to figure it out. She has dyslexia, and traditional school is not fun for her. She does terribly on standardized testing, though she gets decent grades. I think she would like being a college student living on campus but would not really like studying, so I think that going right to work and maybe exploring community college would be the best choice for her. We shall see.

None of my kids are candidates for selective schools, other than perhaps DS17 going to a selective music school. Although I think that is not likely, we are looking at whether he should study with a different teacher, to increase his chances.

My dreams of what my kids would do academically were only dreams, and I learned that I have to let them forge their own paths. Sometimes they need help from me to do that, and sometimes it's hard to find the balance where I support them as the parent but don't push them in ways that they don't want.

 

[Indigo Blue]

My goal was for them to go. My goal was for them to get a degree in a field where they would be able to comfortably support themselves. My goal was to instill in them the value of higher education. My hope was that they would want this for themselves. 
 

I started planning for this as soon as they were born. I did not have this opportunity, and I absolutely wanted them to have this chance. 
 

It turned out that they did want this for themselves. We were all on the same page with that. However, unless there would have been substantial scholarships, we were not able to send them to an elite school. It turned out that they have done well, anyway. 
 

Having said all that, I wouldn’t have pressured them to go if they really didn’t want to. Honestly, it would have been inwardly difficult to accept that, but I would have accepted it, and I would have been supportive. 
 

I agree all the pressure on the kids during high school has gotten out of hand. 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Indigo Blue

[Ting Tang]

This is a great question!

Mostly, I want my children to do extremely well in many areas prior to the college application process so that they have options.  I would love them to have the option to go anywhere of their choosing, but that will also mean qualifying for scholarships.  I am learning to be okay with the idea of community college, so long as it doesn't eliminate any better options that might exist for them as incoming freshman.

Nobody could have swayed me to go to a community college.  I did get a partial academic scholarship.  The debt was okay because I planned to go to law school. I was pre-law, and I was even on my college's national-level winning mock trial team, president of my honor society, etc.  But then I had this professional for Constitutional Law I didn't care for, and the experience really shook my confidence. I ended up going to grad school instead of law school, acquired more debt sans the earning power to pay it off on my own.  

On that note, I didn't have close family guiding me at all. That is something I hope to do differently with my children.  Options are great, but I do not want them to be in debt for life.  It's easy to acquire college debt, and it is not always as easy to pay it off.  ETA - I would be okay with a vocational or certificate program.  I admit, it is not my dream for them---but I would want it to be their dream.  And I wouldn't want it to be because they didn't have other options.  I also believe a lot of different kids CAN go to college. You do not have to be "perfect," but I do see where being a good student with good extracurriculars helps.  My nephew has 75% of his college paid for with a scholarship.  

Edited September 17, 2022 by Ting Tang

[bookbard]

My husband is a tradesman, and we live in an area where most people are tradesmen. I very much want my children to get a university education and feel like I'm going to have to push for this. My husband didn't finish high school and I know really feels university is such a high bar. I have a master's degree and know access to university (as in getting the marks) is pretty easy; it's the slogging through the courses that's difficult, the discipline of it. I don't care which university (doesn't make a big difference in Australia, I don't think), but I do think having a basic arts or science degree broadens the mind enormously. While economically many tradies are doing very well, I think it's a myth that they all are - and as it's self-employment, there's no sick pay or holiday pay, and it's so hard on the body. I know so many tradies who have had to stop working early, like around 40, because of physical issues (especially bad backs), and then it's very hard to get another job that isn't physical because they don't have any other education. 

[Jaybee]

One thing about higher education that I haven't heard mentioned is this: There are many, many states that are miles from the elite and Ivy League schools. They have good, solid schools, but not the top ones. In those states, going with the state flagship or a similarly well-regarded local-ish school may be a much better choice if they plan to stay in that state or area. Because in those states, the connections that often lead to the desirable jobs are made at the local-ish schools where nearly everybody else went.

[Lecka]

@Ting Tang

 

Sadly, you have to be careful with saying “75% of college is paid for by a scholarship” because some (many) places will do this as a way to encourage enrollment, and to some extent they will artificially inflate tuition so that they can give scholarships that sound really good.  
 

So it can mean it’s an objectively great scholarship, or it can mean it’s actually making it equal to full-pay at the state flagship, or it can mean it’s actually more expensive than other reasonable options.  
 

I think it’s one of those things where you can see it sounds great but it doesn’t mean it made it be the most financially practical option.  
 

But there can be an element of marketing because it is known that giving scholarships makes people more likely to enroll even if they will pay more at a certain school.  

And it can still be the best choice, too!  But it is just something where over time you might start to feel some skepticism about some scholarships that are great scholarships but still leave a huge balance to be paid.  

[Clarita]

Adjacent to this thread is what grandparents hope for their grandchildren. Both my husband and my parents pushed college for us, or really the expected us to graduate with a Bachelor's degree and nothing less. Really B's were a disappointment and there would be a talk about whether we were trying our best. (Since I had several of B's my parents really doubted I was ever going to do anything with my life...)

When it comes to their grandchildren though, those little darlings just need to have fun with lots of candy and toys.

[Corraleno]

Neither sports nor elite schools were even on my radar for DS, who I always thought would be better suited to a small LAC. Then in his mid-teens he suddenly found a sport he loved and ended up with multiple offers from top schools while I scrambled to figure out all the NCAA stuff at the last minute. He turned down an Ivy and a couple of other elite privates in favor of a top 50 flagship that offered full OOS tuition plus partial R&B (academic + athletic scholarships). People thought he was nuts turn down an Ivy, but not only was the cost difference totally insane, the flagship was also higher ranked for his major. The school he chose was definitely the best academic, athletic, and financial fit, but I don't think it ended up being the best social or emotional fit because of the sheer size. Sometimes I wonder if he might have been happier with his college experience if he'd never stumbled into his sport and had ended up at a much smaller school where he could just focus on academics and have more of a social life, but I guess that's just one of those unknowable things. He is currently doing an MA at the same university since he has one more year of NCAA eligibility, but he really has no idea what he wants to do for a career.

Ironically, I know a lot of kids who came at it from the opposite direction (really pushed into the sport from a young age in the belief it would be their ticket to an Ivy or other top school) and in most cases that has not worked out. Most did not get offers from the elite schools they hoped for, and did not get any athletic money even from lower ranked schools. I know of two kids who successfully used sports to get into elite schools and then quit the team after freshman year and never competed again because they really didn't love the sport and it was always just a means to an end. DS had a friend whose parents were so convinced that the sport would get him into an Ivy that they paid no attention to academics and just enrolled him in a very basic online HS program. The mom is one of those people who is certain that she knows everything about everything, and was not open to suggestions about applying to public schools where he could probably get in with the coach's help despite the lackluster academics. When he ended up with zero options, which was apparently a shock to his family but not to anyone else, he told everyone he'd decided to go directly into coaching instead of college. After a few years of part-time coaching, he's just started taking classes at a local college that is far lower ranked than any of the schools he could have gotten into 4 or 5 years ago, and he also missed out on the chance to compete on a varsity team — all because his parents considered anything "less" than an Ivy to be beneath them.

On the flip side, when I was in a FB group for homeschooled athletes, I saw so many parents who prioritized sports to the extent that they really couldn't care less about academic quality or ranking as long as the kid could play ball. There'd be a few kids with decent scholarships to D2 or occasionally D1 schools, but most kids seemed to end up at small private D3s, where the parents were paying a ton of money (often including massive loans) just for the kid to be a "varsity athlete," as if the degree itself was of little consequence. The idea of going deeply into debt for a degree that's not worth any more than one from an in-state public that would have cost vastly less, but where the kid might only have been on a club team, seems just as nuts to me as investing huge amounts of time and money in a sport in the hope it will bring elite admissions or at least a full ride somewhere..

 

[ktgrok]

I no longer have any goals for my children once they are adults. Because really, it's not appropriate. At that point, they get to have their own goals. 

My hope is they are good people, who can support themselves doing something they enjoy, or at least don't hate. Beyond that, it's all on them. and even then, it's a hope, not a goal. 

I think this nonsense over elite schools and such is insane, honestly. But I feel that way about the entire hustle culture/super competitive/rate race world we live in, honestly. 

As far as I'm concerned, "there's no such thing as the real world". 

 

[Soror]

I'm a first gen college graduate. My parents were encouraging but clueless. I hope I can provide more help without being pushy. I want them to obtain some type of education or training for a career that will support them in life but that isn't necessarily college. I *try* to hold lightly to anything I think they should do as they are their own people. The path I had thought would be best for ds has not been what he has chosen. And in the end mental health trumped all those things. The ideal path to college goes out the window when you are just hoping your kid stays alive. As it is now, he is accepted at a state school. It is the same school I graduated from and dh is now going but we both thought another school would be a better fit and certainly didn't push him there. I hope dd has an easier time of it but in the end it is what it is and I'll do my best to help them with whatever goals they have.

 

[historically accurate]

I think all of my kids would be well served by some sort of schooling following high school. However, I don't know that a 4 year right after college is it. None of my kids would've thrived at an elite school, so it was not even on my radar. My kids are 20, 17 & 15.

DD 20 finished an AS in high school, and went to a different state's public college for 2 years (she would still have about 2, possibly 3, semesters left to get her BS). Our state's flagship's program was highly, highly competitive, so she ended up for a similar price in a different state. Partly because of online instead of in-person classes, partly because of physical and mental health, partly because of college not being such a good fit for her, she is home for a year while she figures out life.  She is thinking about doing a mechatronics certificate program at our local cc next semester. She would be a good fit for working and night school as she hated the college life.

DD 17 wants to be a nurse. She does not want to do the AAS program available at our local cc. She wants the full college experience. Her physical health is an issue that may mean her dream isn't attainable. She is only a junior so we will figure it out eventually.

DD 15 has never been academically inclined. She would do well by a cc program or just going to work. 

We have a wonderful gift from other family members -- donations into 529s for the kids' educations. That is their budget and they know how much they have. They have to cover anything above that (DH and I cover travel to and from school, books, and supplies and a minimal amount toward tuition). If they choose not to use it now, it will sit there for their future or future generations...

[Amethyst]

Didn't read other responses.

"Get a marketable skill"  That was the advice from my mom many moons ago, and it's what we told our kids. We paid for their undergrad education, so less expensive was good. I never saw any value in going to an elite school that would charge exorbitant tuition. Exclusive schools also want to weed out perfectly good candidates for med school just so they can say that such-and-such a percentage of our students get accepted to medical school. And all of my kids stayed home for college because staying home was cheaper than paying to live away. And doing activities when in grade school specifically for getting into an elite college...yuck. 

[Corraleno]

I was first gen, and had no help in applying to college, which my parents considered unnecessary. Due to the lack of support, I ended up with exactly one option: a small LAC that offered me a full ride National Merit scholarship. Luckily for me it was a CTCL which did indeed totally change my life, and I ended up in a top graduate program  after that. I'm still the only one in my family to go to college at all, let alone grad school.

[Please don't quote the following...}

I would have loved for DD to go away to college and have the kind of experience I had, because she really needs to have her perspective broadened and see that there is so much more to life than she can see from inside the social bubble she is currently immersed in. But unfortunately she met her current boyfriend when she was just 16 and he is very anti-education (HS dropout who was eventually bribed to get a GED) and he convinced her for a long time that I was being unreasonable and "controlling" by even wanting her to finish HS let alone think about college. She moved out (and in with him) the minute she turned 18 and my priority was just to keep the channels of communication open enough that she might eventually move back home. Thankfully she did move home again at 19.5, and has been working part time and taking occasional classes through the CC or ASU online. She's expressed interest in doing a Medical Assistant program at the CC and is registered for a couple of classes this fall — if she sticks with it and manages to get through the program and get a job I will be beyond thrilled, because her boyfriend tries to undermine her confidence and discourage her from pursuing anything that would give her more independence from him or might lead to her having friends and a social life outside of what he can control. Sigh. This is not something I ever saw coming when she was a young teen and I was thinking about what direction she might want to go after HS!

[rebcoola]

My jobs as homeschool mom is to make sure they can go to college if they want.  We talk about careers and what it takes to get them.  My oldest has narrowed her interest to just a couple of things one which involves college and grad school.  The other she would be more employable and have better connections if she joined the Navy.  

[Drama Llama]

8 hours ago, Ali in OR said:

If your kids' hearts are set on going to a school that has a low acceptance rate, I do think you need to play the college admissions prep game a bit. I don't think sports are that game for most--do fine arts/music, pursue opportunities for service and leadership, become an interesting person with a great story to tell on admissions essays.

My oldest's heart is definitely not set anywhere.  My youngest?  He's my competitive one, and has asked me lots of questions about whose college is "best", and whether he should try to attend a certain college, because his peers are asking those questions and if they want something then he wants it too.  

I don't know where my line will be, but I know I'm not going to tell my kid who loves sports more than anything, that he should go do music, or service, or whatever instead because it's a better path.  I could maybe see nudging my kid in one direction if he's undecided between two things, but I'm not going to tell him to try to be someone that he's not. 

[Drama Llama]

8 hours ago, WTM said:

Off topic, but it’s kind of fun to see how many users are in a thread. It’s like an invitation to a party…

I can't believe I started a party and didn't bring theme food.  

[Drama Llama]

8 hours ago, bolt. said:

I don't, by habit, set 'goals' for other people. I set goals for how well I want to serve or provide for my kids, but I don't go so far as to have a 'goal' for what they are going to do in response to the the things I do for them.

 

I think it's normal for parents to have goals for their kids when they are little.  I had a goal that they'd learn to read, or be on track for Algebra by high school, or be able to swim since those are safety skills. At some point, that transitions to the kid.  I am not sure what that point is.  What I really want is to buy more time for my 12 year old, so he has a little more maturity when he decides.  I think that's possible, but I am surrounded by people wiht all this urgency.

[Lori D.]

9 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

... but I am surrounded by people wiht all this urgency.

Gently, it's time to politely tell them to back off:

"Thank you for your love for us all. I know you mean well by your comments, BUT... Pushing us about college at this time is adding unnecessary pressure to our lives and it is NOT helping us do the healing and normalizing that is the priority for us all right NOW -- so that college CAN be an option later on. Thank you for understanding, and for discontinuing to bring up the topic of college at this time in our lives. Now, may I pass you some bean dip...?"

Edited September 17, 2022 by Lori D.

[Arcadia]

6 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

.  What I really want is to buy more time for my 12 year old, so he has a little more maturity when he decides.  I think that's possible, but I am surrounded by people wiht all this urgency.

We told both kids that taking a gap year is “allowed”. DS16 opt to take take what he can handle at community college then transfer instead of doing a gap year. 
Both my kids are December babies so it is easier for them because when DS16 says he is 16, people assume he is in junior year. Even for DS17, people assume he is a senior.

[Drama Llama]

5 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Gently, with all that your kids have been through in the past years, I can't imagine trying to pressure and herd them into "things that will look good in college" -- when they are currently in middle school, and are finally starting to heal and recover. They NEED this time to be unpressured to have the chance to heal, "normalize", and to just explore interests and enjoy life. 

I'm not doing that.  I'm asking if other people are doing that.  

 

[Lori D.]

5 minutes ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I'm not doing that.  I'm asking if other people are doing that.  

 

I was not suggesting you were doing that... I could see the possibility of feeling forced into doing something like that because of the list of things you mentioned in your OP that people are saying to you which are causing you to stress about college.

My comment was more meant as a reaction of "what are those other people (NOT YOU) thinking, making comments like that to a family that has just been through so much!!"

I'm sorry that you are in the midst of a pressure cooker society re: college. That would be incredibly stressful. ((((hugs))))

Edited September 17, 2022 by Lori D.

[Drama Llama]

3 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Gently, it's time to politely tell them to back off:

"Thank you for your love for us all. I know you mean well by your comments, BUT... Pushing us about college at this time is adding unnecessary pressure to our lives and it is NOT helping us do the healing and normalizing that is the priority for us all right NOW -- so that college CAN be an option later on. Thank you for understanding, and for discontinuing to bring up the topic of college at this time in our lives. Now, may I pass you some bean dip...?"

So, some of these comments aren't directed or about my kids.  It's general conversation.  For example, my younger kid went to robotics camp this summer.  He liked building robots, had an injury that ruled out sports camps, and I need summer childcare, so when I found out there was a fun sounding robotics camp near my work, I signed him up, and he liked it.

Another parent asked what DS did this summer, and I mentioned robotics camp and the other parent told me I was smart to pick something that would look good on a college app, and then started musing about how 

Or another parent came up to me at a game for a sport that isn't soccer, and asked me where my kid played.  I said that he doesn't play outside of school, because he plays another sport thats time consuming, and got the whole "We chose this sport because X percent go on to play it in college, whereas only Y percent of soccer players do.  You should think about that!"  

The people in my family who pressure are not going to listen to me politely telling them anything.  There are other people who I know agree that college should be a high priority, but they keep those thoughts to themselves unless I directly ask.  

 

[Drama Llama]

2 hours ago, bookbard said:

My husband is a tradesman, and we live in an area where most people are tradesmen.

In contrast, my husband is a painter.  He mostly paints walls in government buildings or religious buildings.  My younger kid went to his school and told people that his Dad was a painter, and several people asked me whether there was a gallery where they could go to see and maybe purchase his work.  It simply did not occur to other people that he might be doing another kind of painting.  

 

[MercyA]

I want my DD to be a happy and kind person. If college will lead to more happiness and success for her, great. 

[Drama Llama]

11 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

I'm sorry that you are in the midst of a pressure cooker society re: college. That would be incredibly stressful. ((((hugs))))

I guess one of my questions is whether the pressure cooker is always damaging.  I had my older kid look long and hard at other school options, and I'm not convinced he made the right choice in staying in the pressure cooker.  He's a smart kid, but with ADHD and some LD's so he works incredibly hard for decent grades, and I worry that he's being made to feel less than. I think there's a good chance he'll change to public school for next year.  

But lots of things come really easy to his younger brother, and he naturally gravitates towards things that probably will look good on a college app. If people feel that attending a top 10 school is "winning", then he's probably as likely to win as any other kid in his grade, and more likely than most.  So, I need to sort out whether I think the environment is still toxic for a kid like that, and I need to balance that with the knowledge that he's had a lot of transitions and upheavals and maybe staying put for a nice long while would be good.  

[teachermom2834]

The sort of stuff you’re describing is exhausting. You, of course, just ignore it and do your own thing and what is right for your kids. But it is tiresome.

I started listening to all that when my oldest was in middle school and he is 24 so I burned out on it a long time ago. It’s annoying and often it is wrong. You really shouldn’t be pulling a robotics camp done in middle school for college app material, for example. So that person was annoying and wrong. 
 

I am not in an area where people are all into the high pressure stuff but I did tend to make friends with those kind of people and the local high school where I was living had a large group of kids every year who were on that track. So I can only imagine how much worse it is when you live in an area that everyone is that way. 
 

A lot of people in my world are just misinformed anyway. “Oh, your dd should take up golf. Golf scholarships are super easy to get.” Or “Oh your ds is so smart I’m sure he can go to college for free anywhere he wants.” 
 

So there is a whole mishmash of people way too intense about the wrong things and woefully uninformed. And you are going to be really exhausted by it by the time it really is time to apply.

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by teachermom2834

[Ting Tang]

2 hours ago, Lecka said:

@Ting Tang

 

Sadly, you have to be careful with saying “75% of college is paid for by a scholarship” because some (many) places will do this as a way to encourage enrollment, and to some extent they will artificially inflate tuition so that they can give scholarships that sound really good.  
 

So it can mean it’s an objectively great scholarship, or it can mean it’s actually making it equal to full-pay at the state flagship, or it can mean it’s actually more expensive than other reasonable options.  
 

I think it’s one of those things where you can see it sounds great but it doesn’t mean it made it be the most financially practical option.  
 

But there can be an element of marketing because it is known that giving scholarships makes people more likely to enroll even if they will pay more at a certain school.  

And it can still be the best choice, too!  But it is just something where over time you might start to feel some skepticism about some scholarships that are great scholarships but still leave a huge balance to be paid.  

Well, I personally do think tuition is inflated, in general.  😞   His dad actually went to this college, so they are familiar with it. It is a very small, private liberal arts college.  I know it was probably not his first choice, though.

[ScoutTN]

We are not in the selective school rat race.
 

I went to an elite NE boarding school, then a prestigious public uni. Hated high school with a passion I cannot even put into words. Loved college, but didn’t work hard and had zero direction. Wasted a fabulous opportunity. I was not ready. I know from experience that real education requires heart and investment and not just a selective school.

My senior is absolutely college bound. She is a good student, but not a superstar. She is applying to two regional publics and three private Christian colleges. She could be happy at any of them. Not high pressure schools. All close to home. Money will be a big factor. We cannot pay much, nor borrow.

My other child detests school and does not work hard at it. He has some great characteristics and potential, but we will absolutely not push or expect college for him. Just waiting for him to get some maturity and focus. He could go straight into sales or the military after high school. Too early to tell. He will be a late bloomer.

[Jaybee]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I guess one of my questions is whether the pressure cooker is always damaging. 

I don't think it is *always damaging, especially if it is led by the student and what they really want. I think it *can be damaging. In an opposite way from what many may think, I believe it can actually limit what a person does rather than expand their options. If all the decisions are toward just what can be put on an app, then a person may not be listening to their gut feelings about what they actually enjoy. 

An example from me that isn't exactly the same thing but can still apply to this, is that I chose my college because I was already taking piano lessons from a prof there, and thought I might minor in music. I didn't know yet what I wanted to major in, but I thought I could just start there and work on my music while I decided, and then transfer somewhere else. This school was about 40 minutes from my home, and I didn't want to go there because so many people I knew went there, and I wanted new exciting adventures further away. I finally admitted to myself by the end of my freshman year that I didn't want to transfer because I loved my school.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Jaybee

[Ali in OR]

2 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I don't know where my line will be, but I know I'm not going to tell my kid who loves sports more than anything, that he should go do music, or service, or whatever instead because it's a better path.  I could maybe see nudging my kid in one direction if he's undecided between two things, but I'm not going to tell him to try to be someone that he's not. 

And I don't mean being something you're not. I just think there are a LOT of voices out there encouraging athletic kids that they could be great, they have such potential, etc. etc. when there aren't actually that many slots out there for college athletes at strong schools, and there are tons of good athletes all over this nation. Being great in high school in tiny Oregon is probably just above average in a huge state like California. It's just healthy to not put all your hope in the hype. But absolutely keep doing sports for the love of it.

Edited September 18, 2022 by Ali in OR

[catz]

3 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

My oldest's heart is definitely not set anywhere.  My youngest?  He's my competitive one, and has asked me lots of questions about whose college is "best", and whether he should try to attend a certain college, because his peers are asking those questions and if they want something then he wants it too.  

I will say my more intense kid did talk like this at times but I was always very serious about moderating the conversation around the fact that there are an overwhelming number of GREAT choices for an educational path and why some people might like some over another.  This actually led to some great discussions over time.  I don't think focusing on the name of where you get an undergrad degree based on prioritizing certain data points that are fairly easily manipulated is particularly healthy.  You can be a great candidate for a school, it can tick affordability boxes for you and you can very easily not get in because there are 10X as many qualified applicants as they need in the case of these top 20 schools.  And because someone named them top 20, they will continue to get increasing numbers of applications.  That doesn't mean your sporty kid shouldn't do sports.  They SHOULD do sports and if that leads down a particular college path when the time comes, that is great.  And if it doesn't, still plenty of fantastic doors open.  

We never pushed or limited options with thoughts of a particular college path.  We followed their lead.  I think the pressure cooker school can be ok, if the family support can keep the pressure cooker off when it comes to these discussions and decisions and presenting a range of realistic options for a student and giving them plenty of opportunity to explore and reinvent themselves and being the constant cheerleader.  Finding YOUR path is winning. 

Though I would also keep an open mind for change if I thought a particular school or social situation was overly affecting my kid.  We had a friend whose child went to one of the local very high end privates after scrimping and saving for that experience and within a year kiddo just became very embittered about his middle class life, thought he needed a fancy car, designer clothes, etc and they had behavioral issues until they made a switch.  Not every kid can compartmentalize these different areas of their life easily.  

 

Edited September 18, 2022 by catz

[Katy]

I wouldn’t worry about LD’s or ADHD or needing to work harder than other kids because somewhere along the way, usually in college, something switches and hard work is more rewarded than just showing up. 

I will say the boys I went to that highly competitive school with were much more likely to be successful entrepreneurs and sell companies for more than half a billion dollars than, well, anyone else I know from anywhere else.  Not that this has made them happy. I think they’ve all been divorced at least once. And most of the successful ones came from lower middle class backgrounds but whose parents put them in highly competitive high schools. 

OTOH, just as many of the boys left school for mental health treatment as became successful entrepreneurs though. So it’s not like the pressure was without cost. 

[Emba]

it’s thing DH and I have talked about recently. We want our kids not to feel pressured to go to college just because that’s what everyone does. If they do decide to go to college, we want them to go to a local community college first to keep cost down. But really we want them to have a plan - it can be trade school or cosmetology or entrepreneurship  but a plan for how they’re going to make a living and hopefully at something they want to do. A career, not just a job with no real chance of advancing. 

[Corraleno]

1 hour ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I guess one of my questions is whether the pressure cooker is always damaging.  I had my older kid look long and hard at other school options, and I'm not convinced he made the right choice in staying in the pressure cooker.  He's a smart kid, but with ADHD and some LD's so he works incredibly hard for decent grades, and I worry that he's being made to feel less than. I think there's a good chance he'll change to public school for next year.  

But lots of things come really easy to his younger brother, and he naturally gravitates towards things that probably will look good on a college app. If people feel that attending a top 10 school is "winning", then he's probably as likely to win as any other kid in his grade, and more likely than most.  So, I need to sort out whether I think the environment is still toxic for a kid like that, and I need to balance that with the knowledge that he's had a lot of transitions and upheavals and maybe staying put for a nice long while would be good.  

RE: whether "the pressure cooker is always damaging"

I'd say not always...  but often enough that it should give parents pause. Every spring College Confidential is full of posts from kids who worked their asses off for 4 years only to feel like total failures for not getting into their dream schools, or they're angry at their parents because they did get into a dream school but mom and dad are forcing them to accept the financial package at a lower ranked school. They feel like "all that hard work and sacrifice was for nothing," and are often jealous and upset that kids they think are "less deserving" than they are got into higher-ranked schools, so clearly the system is unfair and rigged because they did "everything they were supposed to" but didn't get the reward they feel they earned. It's sad to see all these young, ambitious, accomplished kids, who should be celebrating graduating high school and eagerly looking forward to the next phase of their lives, instead feeling bitter and cynical and defeated because they didn't win the prize they just sacrificed four years of their lives to get.

And I think it can be really hard even for pretty level-headed kids to escape that mentality if they're totally immersed in it. DS wasn't even in that environment and didn't have that attitude at all, but he had a lot of friends who were very focused on elite admissions, and so many told him he was crazy to turn down an Ivy that he began to second-guess himself and wonder if he didn't understand the issues and was missing something important. He was perplexed, and I think a little hurt, that people were acting as if a near-full-ride to a top 50 school was some sort of sad consolation prize he was inexplicably settling for when he had "better" options. One of his friends ended up at a really good engineering school (Stevens), and yet his parents were very vocal (right in front of him!) about their disappointment that he did not get into "better" schools.

And this is a little OT, but I think relevant... When DS passed on the Ivy recruiting slot, he recommended that a close friend try to jump on it before it was offered to anyone else, and his friend ended up getting the slot. The two of them met up this summer, when they were both home for a bit after graduation, and DS learned that his friend had just accepted a job in Chicago with a 6-figure starting salary, which caused him to once again wonder if he'd made the right choice or if he was indeed stupid to have turned down an Ivy. And that led to a long discussion about the importance of really, seriously thinking about and defining his own values instead of just assuming he should value the same things as his friend. Would he really be happy in a very high pressure corporate job with long hours and a lot of stress? What would a 6-figure salary actually, in practice, mean to him — what things would he want that that salary could buy, and how much free time and peace of mind would he trade for those things? Would he rather have a less demanding and lower paying job, and focus on being more frugal in return for more free time and less stress? Where does he see himself living, and what kind of lifestyle does he want? Urban/suburban/rural? Married with kids and a big house and new cars, or living in a small apartment or even a tiny house with no debt and a lot of flexibility? Does he want a job that's intellectually challenging and meaningful, even if it's high stress, or would a basic pay-the-bills job that left a lot of free time to pursue outside interests be more attractive? One of his friends has a job that's not related to his degree but provides flexible hours that allows him to continue to train and compete in his sport, including time off to travel for national and international competitions — how much does he want to continue in his sport and what kinds of jobs would best lend themselves to that? Etc.

To tie this back to the topic of the thread, the point of the discussion was to get him to start thinking about what kind of life style he really wants, and what aspects are most important to him, and then work backwards to figure out the best path to get him there, rather than just accepting the values and goals of his peers (most of which have simply been handed down from parents rather than being consciously thought through and freely chosen) and then just following the path that everyone else claims is the "best" or most desirable or most prestigious, without stopping to think whether the place it goes is really where he wants to end up. I think a lot of smart, ambitious kids might be more inclined to get out of the rat race sooner if they actually sat down and thought through where it was all going and whether that was really how they wanted to live. (And in fact I think Gen Z is maybe beginning to wake up to this, hence the whole "quiet quitting" movement...)

[madteaparty]

Not that much (and even less with the younger kid) because I realize now how much of it is dependent on Chance/luck. So one could be all tiger mom and in the end you just get a fairly miserable childhood as an award. I focused on academics for DS but also did things like, never really finished classes one semester as we picked up to travel for 6 months. We’d skip a class or two so he could go skiing middle of the week with his dad. Etc. he still graduated with a ton of APs and college classes and is at a very selective school.  Both DH and I are in jobs where unless you have family connections, “pedigree” matters but it can be “fixed” in grad school (arguably that’s the only reason to go to business school ;))
with DD, I’m even more relaxed—she’s in public school and just loving  life. Is she learning anything? Time will tell 😉 I’m trying to do two languages with her too around the edges and she’s really into her sport so I’m not losing sleep over academics with her. Plus I’m tired and older now so

ETA that we are full pay and I will be honest that I didn’t want to pay for a mediocre school. I also didn’t want him to go to our state school where he started taking classes in 7th grade.

Edited September 18, 2022 by madteaparty

[Shoeless]

4 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I guess one of my questions is whether the pressure cooker is always damaging.  I had my older kid look long and hard at other school options, and I'm not convinced he made the right choice in staying in the pressure cooker.  He's a smart kid, but with ADHD and some LD's so he works incredibly hard for decent grades, and I worry that he's being made to feel less than. I think there's a good chance he'll change to public school for next year.  

But lots of things come really easy to his younger brother, and he naturally gravitates towards things that probably will look good on a college app. If people feel that attending a top 10 school is "winning", then he's probably as likely to win as any other kid in his grade, and more likely than most.  So, I need to sort out whether I think the environment is still toxic for a kid like that, and I need to balance that with the knowledge that he's had a lot of transitions and upheavals and maybe staying put for a nice long while would be good.  

It's not "always" damaging, but nothing in this world is "always". Some people thrive under pressure and competition. Other people collapse from the weight of it. A lot of other people deal with it, to varying degrees of success and satisfaction.

[LMD]

We want our kids to have choices, I wanted homeschooling to expand their lives, not curtail them. We want them to have the skills/education to be able to forge their own lives, not get stuck in a low wage employee rut (very easy in our experience) which isn't so much about money but more about being stuck putting up with crappy job situations.

So, what that boils down to practically is that we do expect them to pursue some sort of further skills training. Not necessarily university or official training, if they want to self train and be an entrepreneur that's totally fine too - as long as they are actually working and motivated. We expected that our kids, like us as youngins, would be champing at the bit to start their 'real' lives asap so we look for options a bit earlier.

So far - dd17 was encouraged to start uni subjects at 16 (she's passed 3 so far) and train as an accountant. Not something she was passionate about but she wasn't passionate about anything and this really fit her natural aptitudes & future goals, & she mostly enjoyed it once she got going. She especially really enjoyed her econ subject so we changed course to a Bachelor of econ (accounting major). We're having some serious troubles at the moment so I really don't know where she'll end up...

Ds15 wants to do a lucrative trade 😄 he has his sights set on Electrical fitter at the moment, and wrangled himself some work experience next month. I've tried to gently tell him that most Electrical apprenticeships around here prefer 17+ year olds, because they want year 11 maths & ability to drive asap, but he seems to think he might be able to start at 16 if he networks through this work experience & other people. Which means our focus for his possible last year (😭) is getting as far as he can in math. He's a smart and diligent kid, curious and thoughtful, he'll be fine no matter what he ends up doing. He'll probably be a lifelong learner & reader - like his dad.

My next two are still young and have very different personalities to their older siblings so we'll see! Then we get to start all over again with this new baby 😂

[easypeasy]

nm

Edited September 18, 2022 by easypeasy

[Carrie12345]

15 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

It’s unhealthy, even for kids who have the ability to be too performers

This was EXTREMELY important for me to figure out. I wish I had realized it sooner, but at least I didn’t put it together too late.

My first born is brilliant. High IQ ASD brilliant. But that’s his intelligence, not his personality or his joy.  He works on his own timetable, and finds meaning in his own ideals.  Yeah, I’m terrified that he’s a music major, but I do think he’ll find his place in that world… someday, lol.  He’s competent in just about any subject. I made sure to lead the horse to all sorts of water (including music), but he chose where to drink.

It’s made life easier with the rest of the kids. #2 did great with DE, but wound up employed through a single, one semester course. And absolutely loves what she does.  If she goes further, it’ll be through a relatively short track that doesn’t use gen ed courses.  The DE experience was still a good and important thing for her, regardless.

#3 is turned off by the competitiveness of nursing school in our area.  She’s found that she adores teaching, but not in an institutional environment. She’s currently working on gaining experience and devising a plan to make environmental education an entrepreneurial adventure.

Have we had big influences on what they’re doing? Absolutely. But what they’ve done/will do with those influences are up to them. Not every one of our kids wants to be a volunteer firefighter. Not every one of our kids wants to be a parent. Not every one of our kids wants to sleep in the woods. And not every one of our kids wants to go to a 4-year college.
The exposures they’ve been given mean they CAN do just about anything, but they’ve also given them the opportunity to learn what they don’t want to do.

[EmilyGF]

This is such an interesting thread! 

I tend towards process goals instead of product goals. So, I want my kids to learn time management: get things done in the time required, don't procrastinate, recognize the difference between working and pretending to work (a big problem I observe with college kids). I want them to pursue excellence, to work hard, and to care. I encourage passionate goals, so when my son took up birding, I drove him long distances to go to birding outings and conferences. When my daughter got into writing, I began reading modern young adult novels (not my favorite genre) so that I could talk with her about them. I can't tell you how many violin events I've gone to, and now I even go to baseball games for ds10. 

One specific goal I tell my kids: for them never to not be able to do something they are passionate about because of lack of math. I work with college students at a top-10 university and it broke my heart last year when a student I work with told me she changed her major because she couldn't handle the math. Some of my kids are math-passionate, some are math skeptical, but I never want math to hold any of them back from something they love.

We went over to the house of a girl who has had the "get into college mindset" a few weeks ago, and she was talking about choosing extracurriculars based on what colleges like. We got home, and dd14 said, "What's she going to do with her time once she gets into college? She won't have anything she actually cares about?" FWIW, her parents were not pushing that message, and appreciated the pushback I gave her. 

That said, I think my oldest two (15 and 17) seem to be on the route to an elite college, in CS and in something medical. DD14 is much more of a question mark, though she is doing great at time management, hard work, and diligence. Ds10 is making me rewrite my plans, being an incredibly gifted and passionate sports player born into a bookish family. He is one of the hardest working kids I know, and is making breakfast for the family as I type because he wants to (he's planning on making dinner tonight, too). Dd6 is learning to read and learning to finish what she starts, LOL.

Emily

[Scarlett]

8 hours ago, MissLemon said:

It's not "always" damaging, but nothing in this world is "always". Some people thrive under pressure and competition. Other people collapse from the weight of it. A lot of other people deal with it, to varying degrees of success and satisfaction.

I think this is where knowing your kid comes in.  And some kids are very difficult to know. 
 

My son is a bit of a dreamer……not like dreaming dreams but rather the type who can’t focus and just stares into space.  So I spent a lot of time even when he should have been independent learning really holding his feet to the fire.  I had worked closely with him all his life so I knew his interests and strengths even if he did not think of those things much less how it would translate to making a living. When he was 16 I took him on a vote he tour and told him to pick something.  I did not try to set him at all but I was not one bit surprised that he chose it based upon process of elimination.  So we got down to IT and drafting and IT was full so there ya go.  He immediately loved it and suddenly he had a plan of what he wanted to do.  Now he has a job in engineering and will graduate in December. 

[Wheres Toto]

My oldest went to a local state university where she received Bachelor's and Master's degrees.  She's looking into going back for a PhD, which is sort of necessary to do what she really wants to do.  In the meantime, she has a very good work-from-home job that's not in her chosen field but allows her to comfortably live in her own apartment, pay for her car and other expenses and still have time for friends.   

My son started at our local community college at 16.  Not dual enrollment, I chose to graduate him and register him as a full matriculating student.  He's going for a degree in the field he thinks he wants to work in.  It's a fairly low cost way for him to explore it fuller and decide if its really what he wants to do, plus he's getting exposure to various teachers and a classroom environment.   Living at home and taking classes locally is definitely the right decision for him to start out (ASD, SPD, gifted). 

My youngest just turned 15.   I expect she'll go to our local community college as well, but I don't expect her to be ready for even the smaller pressures of that until she's at least 17 or 18.  She has adhd and fairly significant anxiety.   

I'm happy with the paths my kids are on.  

[catz]

10 hours ago, Corraleno said:

And this is a little OT, but I think relevant... When DS passed on the Ivy recruiting slot, he recommended that a close friend try to jump on it before it was offered to anyone else, and his friend ended up getting the slot. The two of them met up this summer, when they were both home for a bit after graduation, and DS learned that his friend had just accepted a job in Chicago with a 6-figure starting salary, which caused him to once again wonder if he'd made the right choice or if he was indeed stupid to have turned down an Ivy.

And at the end of the day, I think people find their path.  Motivated people with connections and resources tend to do better.  My flagship educated spouse has this coveted job and salary now and has plenty of people under him who have degrees from higher rated schools.  He used to work for a company on wall street prior to this current role.

There is a local nationally recognized arts org we are very fond of locally.  The director went to a directional state school.  She is sharp and has amazing people skills.  A few people working in the trenches there went to a top 20 and are kind of living their dream working tangentially in the arts but are relatively lower income.  

There are certainly students launching to competitive internships and jobs and top/well-funded grad schools from my kid's university. One of my son's roommates has earned a small fortune doing internship/contract work during college, it's pretty crazy.  Because my kid is who he is he hasn't had an internship in his 2nd degree and has spent his summers taking classes.  

 

[Faith-manor]

14 hours ago, Baseballandhockey said:

I think it's normal for parents to have goals for their kids when they are little.  I had a goal that they'd learn to read, or be on track for Algebra by high school, or be able to swim since those are safety skills. At some point, that transitions to the kid.  I am not sure what that point is.  What I really want is to buy more time for my 12 year old, so he has a little more maturity when he decides.  I think that's possible, but I am surrounded by people wiht all this urgency.

That is a tough spot, but stick to your plan to let him mature and then slowly transition to the decision making. Don't let a them bully you. Maybe you could set him down, explain that relatives and friends are very socially competitive about post high school education, explain that you see a lot of stress and emotional dangers in that approach and want hm to come to you if he feels pressured or unsure, and tell others that the topic is off limits with your son. You probably can't control his father too much, but you may be able to direct the narrative with others.

College admissions is fickle. There are many, many tippy top candidates that do not get into top colleges and it can leave you scratching your head. Zip code, geographical diversity, recruiting specifically for some majors and not others, the ever subjective opinions of admissions personnel, whether or not they want to hand out enough scholarships and financial aid to actually woo the student when maybe a lesser qualified candidate with parents who can write a check in full is available, percentage of legacy admissions, you name it. So many factors most of which the student can not control. 

I am a graduate of Oberlin back when it was in the top 10 of LAC's in the US and ridiculously difficult to get accepted to the music department. I have "war" stories about that music department, LOL!

 

[catz]

4 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

 

I am a graduate of Oberlin back when it was in the top 10 of LAC's in the US and ridiculously difficult to get accepted to the music department. I have "war" stories about that music department, LOL!

 

Oh my oldest got into Oberlin and declined.  I believe you have some war stories and I am pretty sure it wouldn't have been the right fit for that kid either.  Music teachers and faculty can be a fickle crew.  My younger is also planning to audition in music but I am strongly discouraging an application to Oberlin.