Shooting at a Texas elementary school

[Heartstrings]

2 hours ago, Corraleno said:

The May 27 press conference came as several different law enforcement entities from across the state were called in by Uvalde police to not only assist in supplementing their police force, but to also provide extra protection to police and the mayor following heavy criticism and threats linked to their hour-long response time to the Robb Elementary School shooting, according to officials with the Texas Police Chiefs Association."

I bet they want/expect those officers to ACTUALLY protect them.  

[1234]

6 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

That doesn’t mean they were cowards.  It’s a legit tactical issue to avoid getting shot if at all possible. 

Actually it’s a nasty thing to accuse the reporter of.

If presumably the mother is in dire need of funds, it speaks more poorly of the reporter for taking advantage of her.

So, let’s not call the cops cowards because we don’t really have all the facts and it’s a valid excuse if they just didn’t want to get shot, but let’s talk badly of parents and reporters for allowing some of the kids to tell their stories?

I may not like most reporters but at least they’re just doing their jobs unlike the law enforcement officers who ignored everything they were supposed to do and just let children be murdered. Maybe those kids and parents want to make sure the truth of what happened gets out instead of waiting and letting the police completely cover it up? Or maybe we should just let them process this however the heck they want and not judge them for it. 

[Rosie_0801]

If they don't tell their own stories, the journalists will make something up.

[KSera]

I just saw this thread detailing what the Uvalde officers were taught in their active shooter training just two months ago. Clearly they did not follow protocol. Notably, protocol calls for them to prioritize innocent life and that if they’re not willing to take that risk for themself then they are suggested to find another line of work.

 

[mathnerd]

3 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

That doesn’t mean they were cowards.  It’s a legit tactical issue to avoid getting shot if at all possible. 

Yeah. Seems like their legit tactic was to do nothing to confront the shooter in order to avoid getting shot and to wait for someone from another agency (Border Patrol Unit) to act out of frustration and eventually step in and do their job for them. 

The Border Patrol guys who took out the shooter did so on their own after getting frustrated at seeing the inaction of the police. They are the heroes because they went and saved lives even though it was not their call of duty in that situation. It is reported that they were off duty, had no backup and decided to do it because of the way the police was acting.

These police officers looked out for their own welfare. They did not confront that shooter in the 10 minutes when he was in the school yard and prevent him from entering the school. That would have been bravery or heroism.

From Reuters:

”Standard law enforcement protocols call for police to confront an active school shooter without delay, rather than waiting for backup or more firepower, a point McCraw acknowledged on Friday.” 

… and he goes on to say that the cops were “wrong” to not act. So, this is not a legit strategy by any means.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/police-response-texas-massacre-under-scrutiny-details-remain-murky-2022-05-27/

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by mathnerd

[Laura Corin]

12 hours ago, Wheres Toto said:

 

What is the expectation of police in other countries?  In Britain most police don't carry guns, right?   What are they expected to do in dangerous situations?

This goes back to gun control.  It's exceptionally rare for a UK police officer to be killed on duty. From this article it sounds like fewer than one per year.

https://www.france24.com/en/20200925-shock-after-rare-killing-of-uk-police-officer-in-line-of-duty

Ordinary police wear stab-proof vests, eta and carry Tasers, and are trained in de-escalation techniques.

In a shooter situation, armed police are called in. This article is interesting on training and expectations.  Response time is 15 minutes in urban areas and 20 minutes in rural areas.

https://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/news/behind-the-blue-line/operations/firearms-officers-and-armed-response-vehicles-arvs/

Edited May 28, 2022 by Laura Corin

[lewelma]

Like the UK, NZ has an unarmed police force. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country

"Since 1916, New Zealand Police have used lethal force 40 times."

This is from the NZ Police web site:

Police is essentially an unarmed service and there is determination both within Police and in the public to keep it that way. ....

There are 17 Armed Offenders Squads (AOSs), made up of nearly 300 part-time members, covering all the country’s main centres.  They are part-time, drawn from all branches of Police and operate on a call out basis.

 

Edited May 28, 2022 by lewelma

[Melissa in Australia]

Here there is a mix of armed and unarmed police. They do wear bullet  proof vests. They do carry teasers, which can look like a gun sort of.  In Melbourne they now walk in groups of three. In more rural areas just in twos. 

The police are friendly as well

Edited May 28, 2022 by Melissa in Australia

[Melissa in Australia]

I just looked it up. Operational police officers carry a . 40 calibre handgun with 15 rounds of amo. They also carry taser, baton, pepper spray, handcuffs, gloves, torch and two way radio. 

 

[Lillyfee]

My das was a police man in Germany for 40 years and always had a gun on him.

He did not ever need to use it fortunately. Our area is also safe and shootings are not really existent. 

However,  there are little parts in Berlin now that basically get controlled by Arabian family clans and these people carry guns sometimes and the police often does not respond to problems there. 

Being a police officer in the US is a crazy dangerous job and their training is a joke. German police training is 3 years in a country that is unarmed for the most part. US police has a 3 month training in a country that is armed like in a war zone. However, the German police uaually carries guns.

[bookbard]

4 hours ago, lewelma said:

Like the UK, NZ has an unarmed police force. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country

"Since 1916, New Zealand Police have used lethal force 40 times."

It was interesting looking at that Wikipedia site. Iceland has had one person killed by police since 1944. Australia goes between 1 and 10 per year, and the victims are almost always a person with a mental illness. There have been some very sad stories I remember.

How US police training compares with the rest of the world - BBC News

In terms of training, apparently Australian police officers have 3600 hours vs US 600 hours. Finland has even more - 5,500 hours.

 

[Carrie12345]

11 hours ago, Terabith said:

Honestly, I think a big part of the problem was that there were too many police officers, and too many different departments.  In an emergency, your chances of someone intervening are WAY higher if there is one person there than if there is a crowd.  The sheer number of police officers diffused responsibility.  

I suspect there was a great deal of confusion, too, because of the different groups there.  Maybe they were out of communication and didn't know about the 911 calls?  

I'm in no way excusing the officers that acted both incompetently and cowardly.  But I think it is a sociological EXPLANATION.  

We can speculate on what *may have happened to responders on an individual basis, but there absolutely IS a chain of command and protocols for how that works in a multi-agency situation. I’ve taken classes on that for CERT, and so have dh and our kids, required as fire/EMT personnel.
There may be “standing around waiting for directions”, but someone is responsible for the lack of direction. There can be ignoring directions (one way or another), and that’s on individuals. But that system is designed to work for ANY sized event, and trainings would cover WAY more than 19 participants.
The management of two dozen fire departments across multiple counties and two states (mostly volunteers) went pretty well over here just a few years ago BECAUSE of the protocols written by FEMA to be applied everywhere in the US. They’re not a surprise or secret to anyone in emergency services.
There have to be recordings of communications in their main “hub”, whatever that might be in that area. I haven’t been following news reports to see if anything’s been put out on that yet, but I suppose much would need to be kept confidential while investigating personal responsibility.

[Carrie12345]

6 hours ago, Rosie_0801 said:

If they don't tell their own stories, the journalists will make something up.

I don’t know if I could offer up my own child like this, but I do see the importance of getting the real details out into the world, making it harder to spin a false narrative. Especially in a country where so many people are susceptible to BS.

[hshibley]

1 hour ago, Carrie12345 said:

I don’t know if I could offer up my own child like this, but I do see the importance of getting the real details out into the world, making it harder to spin a false narrative. Especially in a country where so many people are susceptible to BS.

This.  We need to know what we are asking kids to live with. She smeared herself with her friend’s blood playing dead for an hour while surrounded by dead classmates calling 911 waiting for the good guys with a gun to show up. The good guys with a gun were right outside too afraid to go in. All so we have unfettered gun access. This is what we are willing to accept. 

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

8 hours ago, Terabith said:

Looking at the timeline of things, I am struck by the fact that a teacher who had only worked there a month propped the door open right before he crashed.  I hope and pray it was a coincidence and an oversight, but the thought crossed my mind to wonder if it was part of the attack. 
 

Probably not, right?  Just a horrific coincidence?

This doesn’t really sound like a coordinated attack. I’m not even sure he planned to shoot up a school.  He shot his grandmother in an argument, was already angry, wrecked his truck which made him angrier,  and then found the nearest target within walking distance.

[Ting Tang]

And children know exactly what they are living with in these times.   No common sense in America. This barely-adult purchased more ammunition than gun enthusiasts in one swoop. I don’t know anything about guns, but that is what I was told. It was a lot. And it was legal. So nobody could even question him and raise an eyebrow … or two…. Even requiring a high school diploma for these purchases could’ve slowed him down, at least. In some places, it’s hard to even buy cough syrup. 

Edited May 28, 2022 by Ting Tang

[happi duck]

In the interview with the 11 yo girl she said she wanted people to know what it's like to be in a school shooting so that it doesn't happen again.  I trust that she could arrive at that decision and want to be heard.

[happi duck]

12 minutes ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

This doesn’t really sound like a coordinated attack. I’m not even sure he planned to shoot up a school.  He shot his grandmother in an argument, was already angry, wrecked his truck which made him angrier,  and then found the nearest target within walking distance.

Iirc, I think I read that the killer messaged someone about shooting an elementary school.

[teachermom2834]

The propped door, the expensive guns, and the inaction of police is enough for the conspiracy folks to have a field day. Of course, they would have found anything to make their stories go but there is plenty here for them to weave a tale.

The propped door is easily explained to me and I think human nature when you have all these security measures in place. If needing to run in and out quick means going all the way around the school to the single point of entry on a secure building you are going to have human beings rig a work around from time to time. No one will ever think that five minutes or less they prop a door so they can get back in is going to be the moment of a school shooter coming in. Humans just can't keep up that level of vigilance every moment of every school day for years on end without any fail. It's going to happen. That poor teacher who did that if it is the true story. 😞 

How to get the expensive guns? I wonder all the time how the people around me have all the expensive stuff they have. Gifts, credit, theft, etc. Savings while all other expenses are covered somehow. But it's enough for the conspiracists to claim something isn't adding up. 

The police waiting around for reinforcements? No way is that protocol. For a few seconds not for nearly an hour. And if those BP guys didn't go on their own how long were they going to wait?!?!?! Of course police officers go in and risk their lives. Otherwise these things would never end. That is how they always end. The shooters don't just give up until they are forced to and they aren't going to until the good guys go in and risk taking fire. 

 

[Slache]

1 minute ago, happi duck said:

In the interview with the 11 yo girl she said she wanted people to know what it's like to be in a school shooting so that it doesn't happen again.  I trust that she could arrive at that decision and want to be heard.

I don't trust a traumatized 11 year old to make that decision for themselves. I have no opinion on the interview and I pass no judgement, I'm just not sure how much what she wants is relevant compared to what she needs right now.

[Sneezyone]

9 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I didn’t read it but I have a tangentially related question:

WTH?!  Why are people who aren’t mental healthcare workers interviewing these children immediately after their trauma?  It’s not that I think they should be silenced it’s that I can’t imagine press conferences do anything but add to their trauma?  If they were my children I’d circle my wagons around my house and my kid like ft Knox.  

Idk. Anyone else find this icky?  Months from now after they have have counseling and such?  *maybe*

I’m always horrified that anyone would want to be on tv/media or put their kids through that.

 

To me this is no different from Mamie Till choosing to expose the horrors committed against her son. People were forced to see the trauma vs hide their heads in the sand. People were forced to stop seeing it as an academic or ideological exercise instead of mass human tragedy that is preventable. I do think these kids have more wisdom wrt to the situation than many, many adults and they have earned the right to be heard.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Sneezyone

[Pawz4me]

7 minutes ago, happi duck said:

In the interview with the 11 yo girl she said she wanted people to know what it's like to be in a school shooting so that it doesn't happen again.  I trust that she could arrive at that decision and want to be heard.

If the reports of the 911 calls are accurate then this 11 yo is much more mature and "with it" than many adults. If she can handle the shooting situation the way she did my guess (and obviously it IS a guess) is that she's more than capable of handling a few well chosen media interviews.

[WildflowerMom]

4 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

To me this is no different from Mamie Till choosing to expose the horrors committed against her son so people would be forced to see the trauma vs hide their heads in the sand.

Totally agree.   After what that kid just went through, talking to a sympathetic journalistic is probably not all that trauma-inducing.    Frankly, lawmakers need to hear it.  

[WildflowerMom]

Imagine your kids right now playing in their play room and a gunman enters.  You’re armed, have a vest on.  Do you stand outside in the hallway while you hear gunshots going off periodically?   Imagine watching the clock for 40 MINUTES and standing there, outside that playroom door.  That’s what they did.   I can’t fathom what excuse what make that scenario ok.  

[Hilltopmom]

11 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Someone said the shooter went in through a door that a teacher had propped open. Kind of makes me wonder about covid ventilation etc? A lot of classes have inadequate ventilation here without opening a door or windows. Unless the windows have security screen on them? Are teachers having to make decisions between covid safety and classroom/school security?

Yes, we are. Although really most teachers don’t seem to care about covid anymore.

Also, last week one day it was 92 degrees in our building so in the morning a few doors wound up propped open with fans trying to pull in cooler air. (No A/C in schools here). Against the rules? Yes. Likelihood of a gunman coming during that half hour? Low?

Our  windows open all the time now that it’s warmer- you don’t need a key to get in just go to a screen- or really schools aren’t made with bulletproof glass.. all you have to do is shoot out a window if you want in anyways.

Classroom doors are shut during instruction and some lock automatically. But again, the top half is glass so a locked door isn’t going to stop anyone.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Hilltopmom

[Happy2BaMom]

9 hours ago, Terabith said:

Looking at the timeline of things, I am struck by the fact that a teacher who had only worked there a month propped the door open right before he crashed.  I hope and pray it was a coincidence and an oversight, but the thought crossed my mind to wonder if it was part of the attack. 
 

Probably not, right?  Just a horrific coincidence?

Don't know, but I know teachers in my school (where I taught) used to prop doors open all the time to improve air flow on hot days. HVAC systems in schools notoriously suck, and that may be all there is to it.

[1234]

I honestly think part of the problem is that after these things happen so many write off survivor’s experiences just because they’re kids. It may be why more and more of them, no matter their age, want to talk and get the stories out, because none of the adults in charge are actually doing anything to change it. 

[Idalou]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

This doesn’t really sound like a coordinated attack. I’m not even sure he planned to shoot up a school.  He shot his grandmother in an argument, was already angry, wrecked his truck which made him angrier,  and then found the nearest target within walking distance.

He wrote a friend that he was going to shoot up a school. I don't believe at all it was coordinated. The teacher, I heard, wanted a phone to take pics of end of year's festivities and forgot to look door.

[Pam in CT]

re obligations of LE to risk their own lives for the sake of others

15 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

Okay. I’ll bite. Devil’s advocate. Why should they [LE] (or anyone else) have a duty to risk getting themselves killed for people?

 

15 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

...Again. Devil advocate. Is taking a job to protect people the same as demanding they risk getting themselves killed?

This question is *worth asking.*

Once upon a time, this nation held a model -- call it the Mr Rogers model, maybe always an not-realized-ideal, maybe never in practice applying equal protection to all, but nonetheless an ideal -- that police officers, like firefighters, like EMTs, like teachers and doctors and nurses -- were "community helpers."  There to help the community. Protect and serve.  Within those "community helper" jobs, a spectrum of job risk, where firefighters and police jobs WERE understood to be intrinsically more dangerous.

But does that mean LE and firefighters are obliged to run into a building with an active shooter or a fire in an effort to save others?  Or is it more like a judgment, case by case, based on their personal assessment in the moment of their personal odds of survival?

Devil's advocate, it's a fair question.

 

Here's another: Devil's advocate - if LE is NOT obliged to protect and serve, why do we equip them with ever-escalating military-style weapons, effectively unfettered authority in the moment, and qualified immunity against misconduct thereafter?  Why do we pour ever-increasing resources toward LE if it's optional when and where they choose to respond?

 

14 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Protect and Serve. That is the job description.  Protect.  Serve.   

That is indeed different from the military, but still includes putting the lives of others before your own, as do, say, firefighters. Are we now going to be cool if firefighters hang out outside a burning building because they might get burned?

If they [LE] are unwilling to do those two things, then what are they even for?  Writing speeding tickets? 

In this nation, where LE understand that anyone in any context could be armed and dangerous, even routine traffic stops escalate 0->90->fatality within moments. Which, obviously, erodes (in some communities, renders wholly impossible) the "community helper" ideal.

 

Which gets to Laura's point: the phenomenon of trigger-twitchy LE fearful for their own safety *is very much related* to the reality that this nation has more guns sloshing around, than people.

7 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

This goes back to gun control.  It's exceptionally rare for a UK police officer to be killed on duty. From this article it sounds like fewer than one per year.

https://www.france24.com/en/20200925-shock-after-rare-killing-of-uk-police-officer-in-line-of-duty

Ordinary police wear stab-proof vests, eta and carry Tasers, and are trained in de-escalation techniques.

In a shooter situation, armed police are called in. This article is interesting on training and expectations.  Response time is 15 minutes in urban areas and 20 minutes in rural areas.

https://www.devon-cornwall.police.uk/news/behind-the-blue-line/operations/firearms-officers-and-armed-response-vehicles-arvs/

If the Uvalde murderer only had a knife, 19 amassed police officers would very likely have been able to dig deep and find the courage to break into the classroom.

Our LE are not-unreasonably concerned for their own safety in every interaction, school or 7-11 or DV or roadside BECAUSE THEY PRESUME THE PRESENCE OF A WEAPON IN EVERY INTERACTION.

I'm not defending individual LE misconduct. I'm not defending LE institutional culture that sanctions *turning off body cameras* and covering up misconduct when it occurs. I'm not defending public policies that create "fund your own department through tickets and fees" that create financial incentives for LE abuse. I'm not defending societal acceptance of pouring ever greater funding into arming military-grade SWAT teams that, once they exist, are going to be deployed, disproportionately against POC. I am DEFINITELY NOT defending LE immunity.

But.  Police fear for their lives because they know full well "community" they ideally are supposed to "help" are armed to the teeth.

It's a cycle. These things are related.

 

It isn't like this everywhere. It doesn't have to be like this.

7 hours ago, lewelma said:

Like the UK, NZ has an unarmed police force. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_firearm_use_by_country

"Since 1916, New Zealand Police have used lethal force 40 times."

This is from the NZ Police web site:

Police is essentially an unarmed service and there is determination both within Police and in the public to keep it that way. ....

There are 17 Armed Offenders Squads (AOSs), made up of nearly 300 part-time members, covering all the country’s main centres.  They are part-time, drawn from all branches of Police and operate on a call out basis.

 

 

7 hours ago, Melissa in Australia said:

Here there is a mix of armed and unarmed police. They do wear bullet  proof vests. They do carry teasers, which can look like a gun sort of.  In Melbourne they now walk in groups of three. In more rural areas just in twos. 

The police are friendly as well

 

2 hours ago, bookbard said:

It was interesting looking at that Wikipedia site. Iceland has had one person killed by police since 1944. Australia goes between 1 and 10 per year, and the victims are almost always a person with a mental illness. There have been some very sad stories I remember.

How US police training compares with the rest of the world - BBC News

In terms of training, apparently Australian police officers have 3600 hours vs US 600 hours. Finland has even more - 5,500 hours.

 

 

 

 

 

[Farrar]

I can't decide how I feel about the news media offering and the parents accepting or allowing an 11 yo to accept doing an interview about her experience. I agree that she shouldn't necessarily make decisions for herself right now and that the parents should have put their foot down if it was going to be too hard for her regardless of what she wanted. But also, I can't bring myself to judge any of them right now. They did it and it's done and I can't do anything but feel for them. And honestly, if they do get some money out of it all, then good. Money can solve problems and they probably had some before and now definitely have a lot more. Money isn't a magic wand, but it does change things for people.

I don't know if her words will change anything. The Parkland kids tried putting their trauma out there and nothing happened. We saw images of the Newtown kids and nothing happened. Will Miah Cerillo's experience be any different? Will it catalyze anything? I just don't think so.

[Heartstrings]

1 hour ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

This doesn’t really sound like a coordinated attack. I’m not even sure he planned to shoot up a school.  He shot his grandmother in an argument, was already angry, wrecked his truck which made him angrier,  and then found the nearest target within walking distance.

I thought that at first but it’s come out that he posted that he was going to kill his grandmother 30 min before the attack, killed her, posted that he had killed her, then posted that he was going to shoot up an elementary school about 15 before he went there.   There is some discrepancies of wether they were public Facebook posts or Facebook messenger messages.  But it’s clear he planned to do it at least before he left his house.  

[Carrie12345]

1 hour ago, Sneezyone said:

To me this is no different from Mamie Till choosing to expose the horrors committed against her son. People were forced to see the trauma vs hide their heads in the sand. People were forced to stop seeing it as an academic or ideological exercise instead of mass human tragedy that is preventable. I do think these kids have more wisdom wrt to the situation than many, many adults and they have earned the right to be heard.

I can only say that my own 11yo has enough passion for addressing the wrongs in the world that I would trust his judgment on his ability to speak out AND I’d be able to gauge his state of mind at the time.
That would not prevent me from seeking appropriate help.
And these survivors should have/are supposed to be telling their experience to *someone right away for investigative purposes, so I would hope that had already been done, and it wouldn’t be their first time recounting the event out loud.

[Katy]

The person responsible is the chief who was in command of the scene that day.

Maybe it's different in Texas but I think in most of the country if an officer breaks orders and gets killed as a result all his life insurance and other benefits to his family are stripped. The border patrol agents probably got an OK from their own commander to break ranks and enter despite orders not to.  Only the person in charge is responsible IMO.

[Farrar]

3 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

I thought that at first but it’s come out that he posted that he was going to kill his grandmother 30 min before the attack, killed her, posted that he had killed her, then posted that he was going to shoot up an elementary school about 15 before he went there.   There is some discrepancies of wether they were public Facebook posts or Facebook messenger messages.  But it’s clear he planned to do it at least before he left his house.  

There are discrepancies, but nothing that has come out suggests any kind of a conspiracy. Most killers tell people about their plans in some form. One of the first things that came out about this guy was friends saying they stopped hanging out with him because he kept sending these violent messages and responding to memes with violent suggestions, including that day before the shooting. He seems to have been active on social media. That doesn't make a conspiracy for me at all.

I'm sure more will come out about the teacher who left the door open and I'm sure it will be horrible for that teacher, who was probably just taking what they saw as a very minor corner cutting measure going between buildings. What motive would they have for helping him? How would that make any sense? There's a senselessness to this act, but we also know that this type of violence motivates some individuals. But what would motive someone to help him do it? Sometimes in a mass shooting, there's a political hate motive and there are people supporting the killer. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. It would just be so irrational. High punishment for no thrill, glory, no political motive furthered.

[Idalou]

2 hours ago, Slache said:

I don't trust a traumatized 11 year old to make that decision for themselves. I have no opinion on the interview and I pass no judgement, I'm just not sure how much what she wants is relevant compared to what she needs right now.

I trust the child that went through this with the courage and planning to do what she did. I trust the parents of a child like this. Listen to them. Maybe if we did we wouldnt't be in this mess. If I had my way, if parents agreed, I would also put the pics of their dead bodies on every front page of the paper and online site. I would force every single politician to look at the photos while having a camera in their face, then have them state their policy on what type of gun legislation they are ready for. We have some incompetent LEOs, we have some LEO's that are murderers, we have many politicians that are cowards. It is past time to stand up. This girl was already traumatized. She has chosen to talk. Don't turn off her video or regret clicking a link. If anything, find other survivors of mass shootings and daily gun violence and listen to every damn word they say.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Idalou

[Pam in CT]

re survivor interviews

2 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I can't decide how I feel about the news media offering and the parents accepting or allowing an 11 yo to accept doing an interview about her experience.....

The Parkland kids tried putting their trauma out there and nothing happened. We saw images of the Newtown kids and nothing happened. Will Miah Cerillo's experience be any different? Will it catalyze anything? I just don't think so.

Something DID happen.

The Parkland survivors were mocked, harassed, derided for "Academy-Award" performances. The physical appearance of one of them was parsed on a major network, with red arrows. A full year later, the same network reprised the mockery, broadcasting to millions that another of the survivor had not gotten into any of the colleges they had applied to.

That is: the Parkland survivors who spoke out about their experiences became a target, for the minority of Americans who figure that mass shootings of schoolchildren are the price we pay for freedom.  As did the Sandy Hook families.

Alex Jones and the 4Chan manboys were out concocting their false flag /crisis actor /invented identiy of the shooter conspiracies while the shooting was still unfolding.  These survivors are brown, and from less-prosperous/connected communities than Parkland or Sandy Hook.  It will be worse for them.

I truly fear for them.

 

[Corraleno]

Heather Cox Richardson's post on the shooting included stats from a poll on gun control. The fact that such an overwhelming majority of Americans favor these basic measures, and yet the politicians who are bought and paid for by the gun lobby will not allow them to be passed, is beyond outrageous. This is not democracy.

"A Politico/Morning consult poll out Wednesday showed “huge support” for gun regulations. It showed that 88% of voters strongly or somewhat support background checks on all gun sales, while only 8% strongly or somewhat oppose such checks. That’s a net approval of +80.

Preventing gun sales to people who have been reported to police as dangerous by a mental health provider is supported by 84% of voters while only 9% oppose it, a net approval of +75.

 

Seventy-seven percent of voters support requiring guns to be stored in a safe storage unit, while only 15% oppose such a requirement, a net approval of +62.

 

A national database for gun sales gets 75% approval and 18% disapproval, a net approval rate of +57.

 

Banning assault style weapons like the AR-15 has an approval rate of 67% of voters while only 25% disapprove. That’s a net approval of +42."

 

[Idalou]

https://twitter.com/ByMikeBaker/status/1530357972034936834?t=_2rWdLoGE6QWKxqm_A3S6w&s=19

 Twitter thread with info on what is expected for Uvalde officers , active shooter training 2 months ago. One note of importance below

Edited May 28, 2022 by Idalou

[maize]

I keep thinking about the teacher who propped the door. Such a minor discrepancy/error, the kind of thing almost everyone does at some point, and such a horrific consequence.

That is going to haunt her for the rest of her life.

Edited May 28, 2022 by maize

[Heartstrings]

11 minutes ago, Farrar said:

There are discrepancies, but nothing that has come out suggests any kind of a conspiracy. Most killers tell people about their plans in some form. One of the first things that came out about this guy was friends saying they stopped hanging out with him because he kept sending these violent messages and responding to memes with violent suggestions, including that day before the shooting. He seems to have been active on social media. That doesn't make a conspiracy for me at all.

I'm sure more will come out about the teacher who left the door open and I'm sure it will be horrible for that teacher, who was probably just taking what they saw as a very minor corner cutting measure going between buildings. What motive would they have for helping him? How would that make any sense? There's a senselessness to this act, but we also know that this type of violence motivates some individuals. But what would motive someone to help him do it? Sometimes in a mass shooting, there's a political hate motive and there are people supporting the killer. But that doesn't seem to be the case here. It would just be so irrational. High punishment for no thrill, glory, no political motive furthered.

Oh, I don’t think there was a conspiracy.   I just think he had the idea in his head at least 30-45 minutes in advance.   He didn’t just crash his car and go to the nearest target in a tantrum.  
 

The inaction of the police department is going to leave space for conspiracy theories just because their inaction is so inexplicable, unfortunately.  

[Faith-manor]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

If the reports of the 911 calls are accurate then this 11 yo is much more mature and "with it" than many adults. If she can handle the shooting situation the way she did my guess (and obviously it IS a guess) is that she's more than capable of handling a few well chosen media interviews.

This. I mean at this point, we the people of the United States of America, have so profoundly cluster effed up this nation that we have no leg left to stand on. None. Sorry. Children today are seeing their homeland for what it is, An Alt Right, fascist, war zone, and since the grown ups refuse to stand up for what is right, refuse to even make flimsy efforts to protect them, they are exercising their basic human rights to stand up for themselves, to have a say in the dystopian horror show they live where every child in this country has to figure out how to be required to attend school while being terrified of it.

We don't have a right to criticize. We just don't. These kids are telling their stories because they are in the fight of their lives, the fight to survive in the dystopian Hunger Games we have made for them.

In case this has not been discussed, I am posting this article. I have no words. Well, I do. But they aren't fit for public consumption, and would turn the Mods hair blue.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/maker-gun-used-uvalde-shooting-long-known-incendiary-ads-rcna30631

[Grace Hopper]

10 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

This. I mean at this point, we the people of the United States of America, have so profoundly cluster effed up this nation that we have no leg left to stand on. None. Sorry. Children today are seeing their homeland for what it is, An Alt Right, fascist, war zone, and since the grown ups refuse to stand up for what is right, refuse to even make flimsy efforts to protect them, they are exercising their basic human rights to stand up for themselves, to have a say in the dystopian horror show they live where every child in this country has to figure out how to be required to attend school while being terrified of it.

We don't have a right to criticize. We just don't. These kids are telling their stories because they are in the fight of their lives, the fight to survive in the dystopian Hunger Games we have made for them.

In case this has not been discussed, I am posting this article. I have no words. Well, I do. But they aren't fit for public consumption, and would turn the Mods hair blue.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/maker-gun-used-uvalde-shooting-long-known-incendiary-ads-rcna30631

This murder weapon manufacturer cloaking itself in Bible-speak is revolting. 

[Lillyfee]

These people are the opposite of Christian. There is nothing Christian about it to send "prayers" and complain about the "evil " while screaming "nobody can take our guns".

We are a very Christian family and I am ashamed that people like that call themselves Christian accepting the deaths of children for some cultural craziness. 

They are the same way the opposite of Christians like terror supporting moslems are the opposite of a good moslem. They belong in the same pot.

[Sneezyone]

53 minutes ago, Carrie12345 said:

I can only say that my own 11yo has enough passion for addressing the wrongs in the world that I would trust his judgment on his ability to speak out AND I’d be able to gauge his state of mind at the time.
That would not prevent me from seeking appropriate help.
And these survivors should have/are supposed to be telling their experience to *someone right away for investigative purposes, so I would hope that had already been done, and it wouldn’t be their first time recounting the event out loud.

There are, in fact, teens who've said upfront that they want graphic photographs of their bodies published if they die in a mass shooting incident.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/my-last-shot-school-shooting-campaign_l_5d4b03d3e4b01e44e474122a

[Heartstrings]

Nm

Edited May 28, 2022 by Heartstrings

[Heartstrings]

Nm

[Heartstrings]

[Pam in CT]

May God save our children.

Because we aren't.

11 minutes ago, Sneezyone said:

There are, in fact, teens who've said upfront that they want graphic photographs of their bodies published if they die in a mass shooting incident.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/my-last-shot-school-shooting-campaign_l_5d4b03d3e4b01e44e474122a

Quote

...as the 20th anniversary of the Columbine shooting approached, [Columbine student] Tyner decided to push for change herself: She and fellow Columbine students created a hashtag campaign and accompanying website called #mylastshot.

It’s a form of protest, all via a little sticker: To participate in #mylastshot, students attach a sticker to the back of their driver’s license, ID or phone that reads: “In the event that I die from gun violence, please publicize the photo of my death. #MyLastShot. Signed, _____.”

Quote

The sticker itself is jarring to see, and it underscores what the teens are fighting for: While many conservative politicians caution against “politicizing the tragedy” after each shooting, Tyner and her peers say they want their deaths to be politicized if they die in a mass shooting. The way they see it, the last photo of their bodies could be the one thing that finally gets legislators to pass common-sense gun reform.

My God.

Reprising the decision that Emmett Till's mother made.

 

[Lillyfee]

I think it's important to show the horrible reality.

We got shown really early the horrifics of the Holocaust. I think I visited a concentration camp with school the first time in 9th grade and we met two survivors at school already earlier on.  No book and no movie can touch you that deeply than talking to a survivor or actually stand there where it happened and feeling the energy there. 

Even the kids that wanted to play cool became silent and realization happened.

 

[Dmmetler]

11 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

I just read the horrible article. I regret it not because of what she said (which is awful) but because I wish I hadn’t ever clicked on it and given them more views.  The description of the poor child during the interview sounds like any minute she’s going to go into shock.  But hey the car needs cleaned and we have an interview to do so oh well.

Just. No. That interview was unethical to the child imnsho.  I wonder if they paid her mother to get the interview at the price of further trauma to the child.  I feel nasty for clicking that link.

As for how do they find mental health care?  There’s not much for anyone in that town. But I think the state should pay for it 100%. 

At least in the short term, emergency services coming in will include psychologists and therapists. However, eventually they leave. There are going to be a LOT of people who need mental health support-every single child and adult in that school, every parent who was stuck outside and couldn’t help, every first responder….thousands of people who are at serious risk of PTSD.