Teen getting in serious trouble - WWYD?

[Pen]

 

2 hours ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

, "This is obviously complex, and the family really needs some local, professional help, as they treat their situation as an absolute emergency.

I agree with this

 

 

2 hours ago, Lang Syne Boardie said:

whitewashed enough to fool a recruiter, the military

 

Who suggested whitewashing for a military recruiter?  I didn’t perceive that anyone posting on this thread thought the situation should be whitewashed.  

 

 

 

[Pen]

@YaelAldrich this  free talk up online until 6am tomorrow morning might be of interest: 

DR. WILLIAM STIXRUD & NED JOHNSON

The Self Driven Child

https://conference.happilyfamily.com/conference-day-4/  

 

[LMD]

I could have introduced you all to 'that kid who turned good kids into liars and druggies.'  Are we all really so naive? Social currency and addictive drugs are... a heck of a drug.

[gardenmom5]

5 hours ago, ``` said:

I know perfectly zilch about the Jewish religion (?).  But I do remember Esther Maria's posts on these boards years ago about the topic.  I seem to remember that some Jewish people will consider a person 'dead' to them if they abandon their faith.  (I'm sure I messed up all the terms, but I hope I got the concept right.)

Anyway, I remember she said something about actually putting them out without any resources or anything (ie. money, etc.).  Not sure if she meant adults or minors or what though.  But it is definitely done in some religions.

just as there are different denominations/sects in christiandom - there are different sects in Judaism.   some practice shunning (Hasidic comes to mind), other's do not.  I do not know which branch to which yael belongs.

then even within those branches, some families practice shunning (or not), even if their religious teachings do (or  not).

[Laurie]

4 hours ago, Mergath said:

 

If sin and pot turned teenagers into violent sociopaths, we never would have survived the nineties. Tough love is going to do exactly jack shit if this boy has a mental illness or personality disorder. In all probably he needs inpatient treatment, meds, and specialized therapy.

And as I responded earlier,   I don't think he's in his right mind and he needs psychiatric help.   

https://poppot.org/2018/07/03/marijuana-violence-know-connection/

[NormaElle]

The practice of sitting shiva/formally mourning a child who leaves the faith or intermarried isn't really done and hasn't for probably about 100 years. In some communities it may still be done but it's very rare and you're unlikely to run into those folks on the internet. 

[Scarlett]

Did the OP update?

[Pen]

25 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Did the OP update?

 

No— no update— but seems to have been on today.  There’s a lot to read and a lot of links to check, and the month of minor status I hope she’s finding help!

[umsami]

Messaged you.  ❤️ 

[YaelAldrich]

I'm back.  I really need to go to bed but I will try to respond to as many of the comments as I can.  I really wished that people with real life experience with extremely rebellious teens would have chimed in.  I bless the two people who did PM me - your messages mean a great deal to me.  I appreciate the hugs and prayers.  I appreciate the concern that all of you have and I have really thought about what you have said.  I do not seem him as an immediate danger to my family.  I also don't think he has the capability to wreak havoc on his school and teachers although they do know about his threats.

My husband is on his way back from AU.  He couldn't have gotten back any sooner than he is getting here. His Sabbath started 14 hours ahead of mine so he found out about what happened on our Saturday morning and was on a plane several hours later.  I've dealt with serious mental health issues with friends and for those issues I would certainly break the Sabbath.  My husband and I have talked several times since Saturday night (my time).  He hears my worry about him coming of age.  One of our options after this summer (where he will work for our friends in Japan - no internet, lots of hard physical work) to put him in a NOLS Year course in South America.  He'll have to finish out high school later.  

This weekend was him ignoring my demand for his phone and going off on his own with his friends (I saw him out and about).  He had a friend (whom we have mentored this year to help him get into college) come over for dinner.

Our plan is get an doctor appointment for a general checkup and request for an MRI to check for brain damage this week.  I have also contacted Boston's Children's Hospital.  They have a new Internet addiction program that I hope will give us some information about what I think is a bad case of internet addiction.  We are also in contact with our personal therapists/psychologists as to another person to evaluate our son. Mergath, we have had him evaluated by McLean hospital, the mental hospital affiliated with Harvard, along with several therapists (LCSWs/PhDs).  We've not used any religious para-helpers.  We're Jewish for goodness sake, we invented the science.  😏 

To go along with that we don't shun him, rather he shuns us.  He is disrespectful of our religion and practices but we let all but the most egregious actions slide because we cannot and don't want to control him religiously.  He sees the hypocrisy of many of our faith but at least is honest that there are Jewish people who are not bad/do not shun him (the family in Japan) and he respects them.  This is part of his rebellion even though it pains me. I made a different choice (practicing but conflicted Christian to Orthodox Judaism) but a choice nonetheless, so I can understand religious change.  He tells us that he was never religiously minded and never believed in Gd and he tells us he told us he never wanted to be in a religious school.  He also tells us he is a Republican and spews some of the more hateful slogans that are coming out now.  That is not the child we saw growing up, especially the Republican part. LOL

I think he is anxious and addicted to the internet and his phone specifically as almost every issue has stemmed from dumb use and his need of having his phone at all times.  None of it is out of the blue.  When the phone/internet is taken away he turns into a rather pleasant person.  But when the phone is reintroduced (they were given back last week) he reverts to the person we have now.  

I must go to bed.  I've been working/helping others non-stop all weekend to keep myself from falling apart.  I must take care of myself as I cannot go to see my parents sick on Wednesday as my mother is undergoing chemo and cannot afford to get sick.  Just found out my father's cancer has spread to a lymph node in his pelvis.  I have contacted his cancer team to see if I can get an appointment while I am dealing with my mother's first major follow up appointment since starting chemo later this week.  Did I mention my youngest had eye surgery last Wednesday and we are still doing aftercare?  Oh G-d, how You hate me.  😭

Edited May 20, 2019 by YaelAldrich
capitalization error

[Melissa in Australia]

huge hugs

 

[Laura Corin]

@YaelAldrich I'm sorry you are going through this. FWIW, what looks like internet addiction can sometimes simply be a way of avoiding all the things that are difficult. That's what I've seen in a young person close to me. He can function without it for a period of time, but that wish to escape becomes stronger and stronger. When the opportunity presents again, nothing else matters.

In our experience, tackling the reasons for needing the escape - which a bright child may be able to hide quite well from family and doctors - allows the internet to become a useful tool for self-regulation, rather than a seeming obsession.

Best wishes.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Laura Corin

[FriedClams]

I don't have anything useful to add but want you to know you're not alone. We're here. You have prayers and hugs from me. Hang in there. Your momma heart must be breaking. ((((Hugs))))

[BlsdMama]

This might not be useful, but is a job change an option? Out of the city, and no travel for DH?

[BlsdMama]

8 hours ago, YaelAldrich said:

 Oh G-d, how You hate me.  😭

 

No, beloved, He does not.  Oh, how I wish it wasn’t all this at once, but when we think we can handle everything on our own, that’s what we try to do. When we are overwhelmed it seems we seek Him more.

This is so much. 😞 I think the plan you have could have great benefit. I’m glad you’re getting a full evaluation. If he comes back healthy and well from Japan, there will need to be a plan in place to maintain things and have an idea of what next. 

[Pen]

Hi Yael, 

Thank you for checking in. I know you have a lot of difficulty in your life right now.

I’m very glad your husband is on his way home.  

I think an MRI for your son to rule out organic brain issues at least to extent scan can do that is really important and I feel relieved long distance that he’ll be getting one. And the general medical check up.  Excellent!  

I have a limited amount of experience with rebellious teens. 

 In situations of an emergency level of addiction or mental illness where action needs to be taken on the youth’s behalf because the youth is a danger to self and or others and or the youth is incapable of participation about decisions in his her own life, then clearly parents need to do whatever they can to get the child into inpatient treatment or removed from the addictive substance etc.

However, I have only seen meaningful long term change when the person doing the changing has a personal  part in decision making about him or herself.  And when change has an internal motivation.  

 I think a wilderness experience or going to Japan  might serve to remove your son from drugs, perhaps from internet and electronics, and certainly from his current group of peers—but I don’t know that it would lead to meaningful change.

It might have the opposite effect due to taking away autonomy and control.  And due to further delaying his ability to move into adulthood it may be the opposite of what he needs.

 

I strongly urge you to contact the center in your area,  I think it was called Think-kids, that @BeachGal linked somewhere above. I’d never heard of that center. However, if it’s based on Collaborative Problem Solving, I’ve certainly heard of that, and I think that’s the basic means by which you are likely to move with your son toward health and healing, and even to reach a good decision with regard to this summer and next year.

Having a center based on Ross Greene work that’s right there local to you sounds to me like a true Godsend. 

If you’ve not read Ross Greene books, I highly recommend them, but I think you need top notch in person outside help, not just some books. 

—

 

 I believe that science shows that meditation type practices can help to heal brains (change functioning and structure for the better) and can provide some of the benefits (such as relief from feelings of anxiety which sounds like it would be significant for your son) that people sometimes gravitate into addictions to self medicate and relieve.  but meditation would be much more healthy way than pot or other addictions.  Therefore, personally, if this were my 17yo son, but I was in your area, would be contacting Dr. Willard. See post below.

 

Unfortunately life tends to throw numerous problems at us all at once.  It is hard.  I hope you can find some sort of support and perhaps helpful therapy for yourself at this difficult time, as well as for your son .

Hugs and prayers,

Pen

ETA: I strongly agree with the post by Laura Corin above.  And I strongly agree with HeighHo that your son needs an “on ramp” — plus I think she has good ideas about extra support around the family cancers.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Pen
To shorten at least a little!

[Pen]

This is a short TedX by Christopher Willard on Kindness from an atheist perspective.  I think he practices somewhere in your part of Massachusetts, with an emphasis on healing the brain via meditation, and some experience with kids if I understand correctly.

 

[LucyStoner]

I’m not sure why some posters seem to be attacking the the OP for saying she hates her son.  

Does she actually hate him?  Clearly not.  Are we not capable of recognizing hyperbole and words born of fear, stress and anger?  

Parents should be able to discuss their feelings, even the less than perfect ones, while dealing with a child in crisis without being rebuked.  Caregiving is hard, caregivers aren’t perfect and caregivers get to say what they are feeling when venting about the situation even if it’s not the best word choice or literally true.  

ETA:  I don’t hate my sons.  Did I feel hatred when my older autistic son almost seriously injured my younger autistic son?  You bet your boots I did.  I hated the situation, I hated my older son for losing his temper like that, I hated myself for not stopping it fast enough, I hated my state because the support options we need don’t exist here.  It was fleeting and not my actual core belief about either my son or myself or having autistic children, but the hate I felt was real.  

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by LucyStoner

[Lanny]

@YaelAldrich  I am glad that you checked in last night and that your DH is on the way back to Boston.  I strongly suggest that the Medical/Mental evaluation have an M.D. who is a Board Certified Psychiatrist, either in charge of the team, or, participating in the team. A Psychiatrist might catch things that are caused by a Physical issue that someone who isn't an M.D. wouldn't notice and come up with a more accurate diagnosis and plan of treatment than someone who is not an M.D.  

You and your DH put him into the school where he was,several years ago, and the first year as he recall, he did very well, and the 2nd year he snapped and rebelled.  I hope they can determine what caused that enormous change in his behavior.

I wonder, regarding the ideas of possibly sending him to Japan for the Summer, or in a program  here in South America, what would happen, how you would get help for him, and how, if necessary, you wold get him  home.  If he has issues with drugs (Pot or other things) there would not be much, if any, sympathy for someone with those issues here.  More importantly, the help that might be available to him here might not have people on staff who could help him in English.   That is not to say that there are not people who use drugs here. There are and it is increasing. But really frowned upon and not considered "normal" or acceptable.  

We live where there are lot of drugs available, but it is primarily for Export to the USA/Canada/Europe and it would be very easy for someone to buy drugs here.   Another issue that makes this a bad place for people with drug abuse issues (assuming he is using Pot for example) is that most medicines that would require a doctors prescription can be purchased, over the counter here. 

Add to that, our laws, which are not as forgiving as those in the USA, and our prisons, which are not as nice as in the USA, and IMO this is a very bad place for someone with a history of using any kind of illegal drugs, or abusing drugs that are legal, to come to.  I speak not only of Colombia, where we live, but of Latin America in general.  Some countries are probably more tolerant than Colombia, but I would not count on that.  

If there is some program near to you, or, at least, within the USA, where he could be out of your house and under the supervision of trained staff, and in their custody, IMO that would be the best possibility of him getting help, and you and your family maintaining your family life.

I will continue to include your family (you, DH, your kids and your parents) in my prayers.

Try to stay calm and to preserve your own physical and mental health while you and your family are going through these issues.

[Pen]

You probably don’t have much time to read, however this is imo an excellent book: Brainstorm: The Power and Purpose of the Teenage Brain https://www.amazon.com/dp/0399168834/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_mFT4CbMTHQNFR

and if you (or your son) have  just ~34  minutes, its author is speaking on happy family online conference today

[Pen]

20 minutes ago, Lanny said:

@YaelAldrich  I am glad that you checked in last night and that your DH is on the way back to Boston.  I strongly suggest that the Medical/Mental evaluation have an M.D. who is a Board Certified Psychiatrist, either in charge of the team, or, participating in the team. A Psychiatrist might catch things that are caused by a Physical issue that someone who isn't an M.D. wouldn't notice and come up with a more accurate diagnosis and plan of treatment than someone who is not an M.D.  

 

She said he was evaluated at McLean.  It’s a top US psychiatric hospital.  He probably got an appropriate team.  

Quote

You and your DH put him into the school where he was,several years ago, and the first year as he recall, he did very well, and the 2nd year he snapped and rebelled.  I hope they can determine what caused that enormous change in his behavior.

 

In my experience, having  been at and having friends at religious based schools in high school, that is an extremely common age / stage for that to happen. 

 

Quote

I wonder, regarding the ideas of possibly sending him to Japan for the Summer, or in a program  here in South America, what would happen, how you would get help for him, and how, if necessary, you wold get him  home.  If he has issues with drugs (Pot or other things) there would not be much, if any, sympathy for someone with those issues here.  More importantly, the help that might be available to him here might not have people on staff who could help him in English.   That is not to say that there are not people who use drugs here. There are and it is increasing. But really frowned upon and not considered "normal" or acceptable.  

We live where there are lot of drugs available, but it is primarily for Export to the USA/Canada/Europe and it would be very easy for someone to buy drugs here.   Another issue that makes this a bad place for people with drug abuse issues (assuming he is using Pot for example) is that most medicines that would require a doctors prescription can be purchased, over the counter here. 

Add to that, our laws, which are not as forgiving as those in the USA, and our prisons, which are not as nice as in the USA, and IMO this is a very bad place for someone with a history of using any kind of illegal drugs, or abusing drugs that are legal, to come to.  I speak not only of Colombia, where we live, but of Latin America in general.  Some countries are probably more tolerant than Colombia, but I would not count on that.  

If there is some program near to you, or, at least, within the USA, where he could be out of your house and under the supervision of trained staff, and in their custody, IMO that would be the best possibility of him getting help, and you and your family maintaining your family life.

 

These sound like extremely important things to consider.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Pen

[chiguirre]

39 minutes ago, Lanny said:

Add to that, our laws, which are not as forgiving as those in the USA, and our prisons, which are not as nice as in the USA, and IMO this is a very bad place for someone with a history of using any kind of illegal drugs, or abusing drugs that are legal, to come to.  I speak not only of Colombia, where we live, but of Latin America in general.  Some countries are probably more tolerant than Colombia, but I would not count on that.  

Totally agree with this. I would look at their courses in the US or Canada. Latin American police are feared and loathed by civilians for good reason. Someone who might talk back to an armed authority could easily end up in a bad place. 

[SeaConquest]

Thinking of you, Yael. I will say Mi Shebeirach for your family and Tehillim, Chapter 20 for you:

1. For the Conductor, a psalm by David.
2. May the Lord answer you on the day of distress; may the Name of the God of Jacob fortify you.
3. May He send your help from the Sanctuary, and support you from Zion.
4. May He remember all your offerings, and always accept favorably your sacrifices.
5. May He grant you your heart's desire, and fulfill your every counsel.
6. We will rejoice in your deliverance, and raise our banners in the name of our God; may the Lord fulfill all your wishes.
7. Now I know that the Lord has delivered His anointed one, answering him from His holy heavens with the mighty saving power of His right hand.
8. Some [rely] upon chariots and some upon horses, but we [rely upon and] invoke the Name of the Lord our God.
9. They bend and fall, but we rise and stand firm.
10. Lord, deliver us; may the King answer us on the day we call.

[Storygirl]

Yael, I have not been in your position, so I don't have advice to offer, just concern.

However, I did notice that in your most recent post, you mention that your son has switched his political beliefs and perhaps has adopted some more radical views. You may be aware of this, but there have been news articles about extremists deliberately recruiting teens over the internet. I am not going to post a specific link, but you can google it.

I have no interest in espousing any political views. I am just suggesting that it is an aspect for you to consider, since internet addiction has also been mentioned. I think it's definitely something to point out to anyone you go to for help.

[Lanny]

25 minutes ago, chiguirre said:

Totally agree with this. I would look at their courses in the US or Canada. Latin American police are feared and loathed by civilians for good reason. Someone who might talk back to an armed authority could easily end up in a bad place. 

 

Thank you. In a Travel forum I occasionally participate in, someone wrote, a few months ago, about wanting to carry Pot around Colombia while enjoying his vacation here. Travelling on buses. Stoned.  He had read somewhere that Colombia had changed the law and permitted a legal dose. Well, everyone, including yours truly, who lives here, shot that idea down, immediately, and suggested that he not come here. Also it was explained to him that that law was rescinded.   Even if it had been legal, any police officer could have given him an incredibly tough time and taken him into custody.  He had also read about bribing police here if he got into trouble. Someone then responded that this is not Mexico and that he should not try that here.  To say nothing that whoever he got the drug(s) from or asked where to get them, might have turned him in or robbed him or worse.  There is very little tolerance for drug users here and being able to walk into a Pharmacy and purchase things over the counter that would require a prescription from an M.D. in the USA also makes this a very bad place for people with drug related issues.  

I don't know anything about illegal drugs but I bet they are available, within a mile or 2 of where we live. I am assuming that. In the 24 years that I have lived here, nobody has ever approached me about buying drugs, but I do remember that happening once, when I was crossing a street (?) in Cancun, many years ago.

We have undercover police here too.  

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Yael, I agree about researching the online radicalization of youth into right wing and incel groups. I hope that isn't happening but something to be aware of. I am so sorry for all the extended problems. You are doing so much to tackle it all, and you are trying to keep perspective and balance. I'm glad you got pm's that were helpful and I really hope you get some answers and guidance from the professionals.

[Pen]

2 hours ago, LucyStoner said:

I’m not sure why some posters seem to be attacking the the OP for saying she hates her son.  

Does she actually hate him?  Clearly not.  Are we not capable of recognizing hyperbole and words born of fear, stress and anger?  

Parents should be able to discuss their feelings, even the less than perfect ones, while dealing with a child in crisis without being rebuked.  Caregiving is hard, caregivers aren’t perfect and caregivers get to say what they are feeling when venting about the situation even if it’s not the best word choice or literally true.  

ETA:  I don’t hate my sons.  Did I feel hatred when my older autistic son almost seriously injured my younger autistic son?  You bet your boots I did.  I hated the situation, I hated my older son for losing his temper like that, I hated myself for not stopping it fast enough, I hated my state because the support options we need don’t exist here.  It was fleeting and not my actual core belief about either my son or myself or having autistic children, but the hate I felt was real.  

 

 

If I came across as attacking Yael, I apologize. I meant to be supportive, not attacking.

My experience includes the world of foster parenting, from which perspective what Yael’s son has reportedly done sounds fairly mild by way of comparison with kids some people I have known regularly deal with.

So while there’s some potential scariness about the situation, hatred of him seemed to me an extreme response, possibly part of overwhelm due to situation as a whole (her parents’ illness etc) where he’s the “last straw.”   

He doesn’t seem to have actually hurt anyone else.   The “gun” at issue as I understand it was a realistic looking fake.  ...  

“Hate” was a very striking word to me in this, both related to Yael ‘s  feelings toward her son, and her feelings about how God feels about her.  I think it’s venting, yes, but that it goes beyond merely venting.  I think there’s probably something behind those feelings that could use support and therapy for Yael herself as an individual — perhaps there’s a self acceptance, problem, perhaps feelings that go back to her own family of childhood issues which could be (unconsciously?)  perhaps especially troubling now with sick or dying parents

 

[Pen]

1 hour ago, chiguirre said:

Totally agree with this. I would look at their courses in the US or Canada. Latin American police are feared and loathed by civilians for good reason. Someone who might talk back to an armed authority could easily end up in a bad place. 

 

I’d suggest he should stay in the US, and even relatively close to Boston area -  New England.   I had thought the other family he could stay with was someone more local.

Difficult as things now are, if there’s an overseas family crisis on top of the grandparent generation cancers, it would probably make the lives of the whole family exponentially more stressful and chaotic.   Even a cross country crisis would increase difficulty.  

 

[laundrycrisis]

I have a relative who went through something like this.  She is very bright,  and I think she just couldn't stand being a kid anymore.  She ended up dropping out of high school and working, I am guessing multiple jobs since a teen can't work full time.  She did get her GED once she was old enough.  Last I heard, she was enrolled in a trade school and doing well.  I believe the behavioral problems stopped once they stopped trying to make her continue living as a kid and attend high school.  

Edited May 20, 2019 by laundrycrisis

[BeachGal]

4 hours ago, Pen said:

However, I have only seen meaningful long term change when the person doing the changing has a personal  part in decision making about him or herself.  And when change has an internal motivation.  

 I think a wilderness experience or going to Japan  might serve to remove your son from drugs, perhaps from internet and electronics, and certainly from his current group of peers—but I don’t know that it would lead to meaningful change.

It might have the opposite effect due to taking away autonomy and control.  And due to further delaying his ability to move into adulthood it may be the opposite of what he needs.

 

I strongly urge you to contact the center in your area,  I think it was called Think-kids, that @BeachGal linked somewhere above. I’d never heard of that center. However, if it’s based on Collaborative Problem Solving, I’ve certainly heard of that, and I think that’s the basic means by which you are likely to move with your son toward health and healing, and even to reach a good decision with regard to this summer and next year.

Having a center based on Ross Greene work that’s right there local to you sounds to me like a true Godsend. 

If you’ve not read Ross Greene books, I highly recommend them, but I think you need top notch in person outside help, not just some books. 

 

Motivational interviewing can be helpful in getting adolescents to change. It involves listening, then carefully phrasing questions and responses in a way to help an individual devise their own plan to change behavior while maintaining autonomy. It was developed to help alcoholics but is very effective in many situations where behavioral change is needed. We learned to use it with our kids when they were in their late teens and it made a world of difference. They went from fighting us tooth and nail and being self-destructive to making far better decisions for themselves. I wish we had learned it when they were younger.

Btw, our kids are in their mid-30s to 20s. It was certainly not a rose-strewn path for us. I can empathize quite a bit with other parents because we've btdt, too. 

[KrissiK]

I am so sorry, Yael. We are going through horrible things with our oldest son (almost 16), things I cannot share on these boards, and not exactly like  yours, but similar in intensity and severity.  He is not living in our home right now and is refusing mental health help.  Everything we have tried has backfired on us. As in, oh, your son is fine, you're the crazy ones Mom and Dad. I have no advice for  you, either on this thread or as a PM because we are just feeling our way through this ourselves.  All I can say is keep persevering, keep trying, but also make sure you do everything you can to keep yourself and the rest of your family safe. I am just so sorry you are having to go through this, but just know you are not the only ones.

[TravelingChris]

A few thoughts-- first of all, just because you take a loved one to supposedly a great medical center doesn't mean they do not misdiagnose.  Our family is not the only family that has that happened to and so even though Mclean said no depression, no bipolar, no schizophrenia, etc, doesn't mean that is so.  Secondly, i want to stress that neither the military nor going to foreign lands is a good idea. You do not have to go to Latin America to get in trouble.  Forget about the pot, even.  Threats or perceived threats are not taken lightly either in the military nor in foreign countries.  The minute he turns 18, he loses all leniency via school principals, etc.  You are overheard in a store threatening to kill or online,  law enforcement may drop in.  

I was reading about this man who was recruited as a white supremacist and now 15 years later, is teaching people how to spot recruitment and ways to combat it.  He said that 2 factors are needed (and these factors hold true whether it is recruiting for white supremacists, islamic terrorists, or anarchists, doesn;'t matter who)  isolation (loneliness) and lack of purpose.

I know that made a huge difference in my son's life.  Once he had a purpose, his depression became so much better and with the purpose, he made lots of friends too. 

[Mergath]

I'm glad to hear you guys are working with a great mental health facility. Like someone else mentioned, don't be afraid of getting a second opinion if you still aren't finding answers. I don't have a rebellious teen, but I was one to some extent, though my dad's mental health issues made mine look like nothing. For me, it was extreme anxiety that went undiagnosed. When you are constantly in fight-or-flight mode, a lot of the time you end up choosing to fight because you reach a point where you can no longer function around other people. I barely slept because of the anxiety as well, which only added to my issues. And even though I was seeing a therapist weekly to help me deal with my dad being whatever the heck he was, no one ever figured out I had obsessive-compulsive disorder. So even professionals can miss stuff.

[Pen]

 

2 minutes ago, Mergath said:

I barely slept because of the anxiety as well, which only added to my issues. A

 

Just lack of sleep can cause major problems even without other factors 

 

[mathnerd]

In my town, there is a local private school that expelled a 1st grader who angrily told her friends at recess that she would bring a gun and shoot them. Nobody believed that threat, the family does not own firearms, but the schools have zero tolerance policy for violent threats to students/staff. This child was 6 years old and probably did not even know what she was talking about.

Seeing how suddenly his behavior changed in the second year of high school, my suspicion is that he might have been recruited online and radicalized to believe in some militant group's ideology and that he is changing because of that. Every radicalized person's story has a similar theme - they were nice kids or quiet kids, never got into trouble, were helpful etc until they got radicalized. I think that it is very important (also urgent) to watch his internet browsing history and to get a hold of the contents of his cellphone browsing and texting history. If you are paying for his phone plan and the internet, you should be able to do both.

Set up a password for the router at home and turn on logging of every web hit from your family's devices. Also google the names of your son's new friends and go to instagram/facebook/twitter and search if they have posted radicalized thoughts or violent threats using guns, bombs etc. Also check if they are on forums that discuss drug usage.  It is good to keep tabs on these things if psychiatrist evaluation is not showing any particular issue.

Could giving him a purpose in life that keeps him very busy help to wean him off his friends/internet addiction or whatever is making him behave this way? I am not sure what that could be, because I was about to suggest volunteering, but, it is not a good idea at this stage. A lot of lonely kids feel happy and energized to be around others who they can help/mentor/tutor/read to etc.

I am so sorry for what your family is going through.

[Pen]

Sleep - mental health:

https://www.livescience.com/60329-online-insomnia-therapy-mental-health-symptoms.html

[Pen]

When my son was having significant rebellion issues I contacted a program in my own area like this one on East coast:  https://www.jointservicessupport.org/ngycp/maryland/freestate-challenge-academy

Although my son got turned around with out needing such a program (at least so far), I got a good bit of help just in talking with an advisor at OYCP, and also with a principal at a military academy in our area.  

I continue to be glad that ngycp exists.

 It could be an option to get some military like discipline and training without having to actually join the military.  And is a controlled program that is suited to dealing with risky youth behavior— without needing to leave US.   Since he isn’t technically dropped out right now it may not apply.  But maybe it would.  The one in Oregon has summer sessions. Maybe the ones on East Coast do too.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

This was s

Edited May 21, 2019 by Pen

[ktgrok]

19 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

@YaelAldrich I'm sorry you are going through this. FWIW, what looks like internet addiction can sometimes simply be a way of avoiding all the things that are difficult. That's what I've seen in a young person close to me. He can function without it for a period of time, but that wish to escape becomes stronger and stronger. When the opportunity presents again, nothing else matters.

In our experience, tackling the reasons for needing the escape - which a bright child may be able to hide quite well from family and doctors - allows the internet to become a useful tool for self-regulation, rather than a seeming obsession.

Best wishes.

Yes - my son had a gaming addiction, or what looked like one. But it was the symptom, not the problem. Trying to control the gaming didn't work, and pushed him away from us. Letting him stop school and getting him a volunteer job with animals pretty much cured it. He was getting immediate feedback/gratification/realization he was important - he'd see a hungry animal, then feed it and it was happy. His actions had VALUE, he had purpose. With that, he didn't need the false purpose he got from gaming. 

8 hours ago, Storygirl said:

Yael, I have not been in your position, so I don't have advice to offer, just concern.

However, I did notice that in your most recent post, you mention that your son has switched his political beliefs and perhaps has adopted some more radical views. You may be aware of this, but there have been news articles about extremists deliberately recruiting teens over the internet. I am not going to post a specific link, but you can google it.

I have no interest in espousing any political views. I am just suggesting that it is an aspect for you to consider, since internet addiction has also been mentioned. I think it's definitely something to point out to anyone you go to for help.

A good point..just as a bad group of friends in real life can influence a kid, so can a group online. 

6 hours ago, laundrycrisis said:

I have a relative who went through something like this.  She is very bright,  and I think she just couldn't stand being a kid anymore.  She ended up dropping out of high school and working, I am guessing multiple jobs since a teen can't work full time.  She did get her GED once she was old enough.  Last I heard, she was enrolled in a trade school and doing well.  I believe the behavioral problems stopped once they stopped trying to make her continue living as a kid and attend high school.  

Truth....so many bright/gifted kids drop out. I almost did. I went to college a year early instead, best decision ever. 

5 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

 

I was reading about this man who was recruited as a white supremacist and now 15 years later, is teaching people how to spot recruitment and ways to combat it.  He said that 2 factors are needed (and these factors hold true whether it is recruiting for white supremacists, islamic terrorists, or anarchists, doesn;'t matter who)  isolation (loneliness) and lack of purpose.

I know that made a huge difference in my son's life.  Once he had a purpose, his depression became so much better and with the purpose, he made lots of friends too. 

Agreed. Boys that age need PURPOSE. They need to know their actions and their very selves have value. Some find that in gangs, in cults, in political extremist groups. Others in volunteer work, schoolwork, jobs, hobbies, etc. Again, I highly advise getting him volunteer work. 

[ktgrok]

Also, did the behavior change coincide with the cancer diagnoses and loss of life in your family? Could this be his way of handling/not handling grief? Or dealing with mortality, etc?

[Scarlett]

19 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Yes - my son had a gaming addiction, or what looked like one. But it was the symptom, not the problem. Trying to control the gaming didn't work, and pushed him away from us. Letting him stop school and getting him a volunteer job with animals pretty much cured it. He was getting immediate feedback/gratification/realization he was important - he'd see a hungry animal, then feed it and it was happy. His actions had VALUE, he had purpose. With that, he didn't need the false purpose he got from gaming. 

A good point..just as a bad group of friends in real life can influence a kid, so can a group online. 

Truth....so many bright/gifted kids drop out. I almost did. I went to college a year early instead, best decision ever. 

Agreed. Boys that age need PURPOSE. They need to know their actions and their very selves have value. Some find that in gangs, in cults, in political extremist groups. Others in volunteer work, schoolwork, jobs, hobbies, etc. Again, I highly advise getting him volunteer work. 

I agree with something of value and purpose.  My kid wasn’t rebellious, but he did start to show signs of discontent and sullenness. When he was 16 I drove him to vo etc and told him to pick something.  He loved it, and at the same time he also got a job which he still has three years later as he finishing up his first year of cc. 

 

[Junie]

47 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Also, did the behavior change coincide with the cancer diagnoses and loss of life in your family? Could this be his way of handling/not handling grief? Or dealing with mortality, etc?

This is what I was thinking about posting.  Yael said that he was the only one who couldn't attend a family member's funeral.  I wonder if that bothers him more than he has expressed.

[maize]

Yael could he be spending time in right wing online hangout places?

I'm thinking of this article I read recently:

https://www.washingtonian.com/2019/05/05/what-happened-after-my-13-year-old-son-joined-the-alt-right/?fbclid=IwAR3YI0R7lTJPiMmDhXzH_6BffTJPwlx-y3DFu5lCJcaPrvyEj9hZx7K9SWk

[rebcoola]

Hugs no experience as a parent but when I was 3 my Oldest Sister was 17 and going through similiar things.  It was hard my parents tried alot eventually they kind of let her go to keep the rest us of safe.  She did wind up in jail but she also graduated college with honors.  It was years of 1 step forward 2 steps back to get the right diagnose and then the right treatment.  It was traumatic for all.  You seem to have a good plan and I will be praying for you.

[Pen]

 

 

9 hours ago, mathnerd said:

I was about to suggest volunteering, but, it is not a good idea at this stage.

 

What about the grandparents with cancer who perhaps could use help?    Perhaps need real help and perhaps for the boy that would be more important than a paid wilderness experience?

[mathnerd]

13 hours ago, Pen said:

What about the grandparents with cancer who perhaps could use help?    Perhaps need real help and perhaps for the boy that would be more important than a paid wilderness experience?

No. Once someone expresses violent thoughts towards others, then it is best not to put them in regular contact with young kids or older people who might not be good at self defense. The best option is to get to the bottom of this issue, which I think is more than rebellion or mental health related and probably due to influence of others. 

Edited May 21, 2019 by mathnerd

[Arcadia]

7 hours ago, Pen said:

What about the grandparents with cancer who perhaps could use help?    Perhaps need real help and perhaps for the boy that would be more important than a paid wilderness experience?

 

My late healthy grandparents could not handle my rebellious male cousin who is prone to cigarette and alcohol overconsumption (he didn’t seek but would happily partake when surrounded by chain smokers and alcoholics). Grandparents with cancer do not need that added high level stress and there might be religious conflict. 

For my most rebellious cousin, earning minimum wage with no chance of promotion made him more matured but that took him to early 30s to be fully responsible adult. He was rebellious from elementary school and got worse in 8th grade. He went to community college after a few years of minimum wage, then work a few more years before going for a part time bachelors degree. My less rebellious cousins and nephews matured in community college, lots of late bloomers among my relatives. 

[Pen]

 

1 hour ago, Arcadia said:

Grandparents with cancer do not need that added high level stress and there might be religious conflict. 

 

You and @mathnerd are probably right. 

I don’t know much of anything about them, the type of people they are or their relationship with the teen. 

In my own life, I knew a grandfather who was one of the only people who could handle one of his teen to young adult grandsons who was having behavior problems and brushes with the law for awhile — even when the grandfather had congestive heart disease and even though the teen was much bigger and stronger— because the grandfather had been a wild youth himself.   Though the grandfather was that way at a time when being a rough kid from the wrong side of the tracks, smoking, drinking, street fighting and so on weren’t regarded in the same way as they are now. 

There might perhaps be less religious conflict with the grandparents than with the parents, given that Yael indicated that she converted to Orthodox Judaism.  Or, if grandparents are fundamentalist Christian maybe there would be even more religious conflict. 

 

 

[ktgrok]

To be clear, am I right in that this young man has never actually done anything violent at all? Not hurting people or pets, not throwing objects at people, not punching walls repeatedly, not shoving past people, etc? He just mouths off, and has made vague threats in the vein of "I hate that Mr. so and so...I'm going to mess him up!" to other people/social media but not directly to anyone? So not saying TO a teacher "I'm going to kill you!" but more posturing/complaining to others, like  "man, I'd like to take that lady out!"?  If it's just tough talk, and sullen refusal and not violent behavior, ever, I'm thinking it is him trying to look tough to his peers, trying to figure out a way to fit in, trying to be "grown". Plus dealing with mortality issues, stress, etc of multiple family tragedies. 

Sometimes trash talk really is just trash talk. I think the underlying issue needs to be dealt with - why does he think this is the way to get attention or appear grown, but would not jump to label him a sociopath because he talks big in front of his friends. Young boys that age can be totally clueless, worse so in a group. 

[Pen]

27 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

To be clear, am I right in that this young man has never actually done anything violent at all?

 

 

27 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Not hurting people or pets, not throwing objects at people, not punching walls repeatedly, not shoving past people, etc? He just mouths off, and has made vague threats in the vein of "I hate that Mr. so and so...I'm going to mess him up!" to other people/social media but not directly to anyone? So not saying TO a teacher "I'm going to kill you!" but more posturing/complaining to others, like  "man, I'd like to take that lady out!"?

 

 

27 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

 If it's just tough talk, and sullen refusal and not violent behavior, ever, I'm thinking it is him trying to look tough to his peers, trying to figure out a way to fit in, trying to be "grown". Plus dealing with mortality issues, stress, etc of multiple family tragedies. 

Sometimes trash talk really is just trash talk. I think the underlying issue needs to be dealt with - why does he think this is the way to get attention or appear grown, but would not jump to label him a sociopath because he talks big in front of his friends. Young boys that age can be totally clueless, worse so in a group. 

 

That’s my current understanding.  

And my understanding is that several people who saw him at a top psychiatric hospital have not considered him to be mentally ill or danger to self or others.  (But that it was awhile back and could use a current evaluation before he turns 18 if possible.) 

And that understanding underlies why I probably felt more comfortable suggesting that a visit to military recruiter, or meaningful  volunteering, could be okay, potentially helpful directions. 

I think it would probably be extremely helpful if @YaelAldrich would clarify this.   Because I think various of us are responding based on different understandings of this very basic issue.