Sleeping Teen Disrupts School Day

[Chelli]

I've got a school day dilemma that I think I know the answer to, but I wanted some Hive input.

 

My oldest (turned 12 in November) is not technically a teen, but in the past year I've noticed her sleeping a LOT more. She sleeps until 10 or 11 every day. While none of us are early risers, I like to get the kids up around 8:30 and eat breakfast around 9:00. My younger two kids do well with this for the most part. This means that Dd8 is easily finished with all of her school work before lunch. The problem is that currently I'm supposed to be combining dd8 and dd12 for Power Hour (our version of Morning Meeting) and content subjects. Unfortunately we are not getting to these consistently because we are having to wait on dd12 to wake up, eat, get dressed etc. She's a dreamer type personality and hormonal so all of this takes FOREVER (look, squirrel!) and most of the time she's in a horrific mood when asked or reminded to do anything (why does everyone hate me!).

 

My dh says I'm letting dd12 call the shots too much and that I need to be mean mom with her more. The problem there is that when I am more strict and structured with her it backfires and she goes into complete melt down mode and nothing gets accomplished at that point. However, she's 12 and in 6th grade, she has more school work now than she did a couple of years ago so it is taking us until after dinner most nights to finish everything. 

 

Right now my solution is to stop combining for science and history so that dd8 can move along with her studies and not be hindered by dd12. Other than that, I'm not sure what to do. It doesn't seem to matter how early dd12 goes to bed, she still sleeps that late.

 

Thoughts?

[Gil]

Wow, that's tough. My boys are younger and while they don't have a bed time, we have a wakeup time. Everyone has to be up by Xam and that is that. It works for us.

I would have to sit down with that 12yo and have a frank conversation. There are worksheets where you account for your time and see what you are doing each week and how much of your waking hours you are wasting. You should have her fill one out over a week or two. If she has slow mornings, then afternoon activities and free time in the evening then her individual school work should be done then. Perhaps she'd like a checklist/block schedule or some other alternative pacing schedule.  Fine, whatever. But the point of the frank conversation is to get her to cut the attitude and work with you here.

 

Her sleep schedule is not the problem if you can be home in that window of time without losing anything. However when she's (finally) awake (it seems that) she's holding the family hostage with her dawdling, dreaming, time wasting etc...Ya'll can't do anything else during the day, you can't take advantage of that extra time to go anywhere because of her. That is not fair.

 

Now, you can flip the schedule so that Power Hour is done once she's up, or even later in the evenings (when everyones winding down)

 

 

I would change the morning routine/process. Breakfast is OVER at 9:15am. Period. You can get up for breakfast, or fore go breakfast. If you sleep through breakfast, that is fine. Lunch will be served at X o'clock and ends at X:25.

 

We have [quick, simple snack] for those who are hungry between waking and X o'clock. If you do not want [quick, simple snack] then you are not hungry and can wait until lunch.

 

Unless she's wetting the bed or menstruating there is no need to take a shower upon waking up. For what? She's not dirty. If she wants/needs to sleep later, fine but when she wakes she is to brush her teeth, wash her face and join ya'll at the table and for the day. AFTER the work is school work is done, she can get changed into clothes, she isn't leaving the house until her work is done anyway. 

 

No more waking late and then dawdling while showering, eating and getting dressed.

Sleep late --> Get up, wash face, brush teeth and join us for PH. After PH, have her do her work individual work in the skills.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Gil

[SparklyUnicorn]

I let my older kid sleep in except on days where he has his outside class.  Otherwise we just won't get to everything.  He functions better on enough sleep.  I figure I have the luxury why not take it? 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I also don't combine anything with my 2.  They are about 4 years apart as well.  There just is nothing that makes sense in terms of combining. 

 

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh Gil. Just wait until your kids are teens.  You will want them to be taking a shower when they wake up.  My kid is 14.  It's literally disgusting to have to sit next to him if he has not showered for the day. 

 

 

Wow, that's tough. My boys are younger and while they don't have a bed time, we have a wakeup time. Everyone has to be up by Xam and that is that. It works for us.

I would have to sit down with that 12yo and have a frank conversation. Her sleep schedule is not the problem if you can be home in that window of time without losing anything. However when she's (finally) awake (it seems that) she's holding the family hostage with her dawdling, dreaming, time wasting etc...Ya'll can't do anything else during the day, you can't take advantage of that extra time to go anywhere because of her. That is not fair.

 

Now, you can flip the schedule so that Power Hour is done later in the evenings (when everyones winding down)

 

I would change the morning routine/process. Breakfast is OVER at 9:15am. Period. You can get up for breakfast, or fore go breakfast. If you sleep through breakfast, that is fine. Lunch will be served at X o'clock and ends at X:25.

We have [quick, simple snack] for those who are hungry between waking and X o'clock. If you do not want [quick, simple snack] then you are not hungry and can wait until lunch.

 

 

Unless she's wetting the bed or menstruating there is no need to take a shower upon waking up. For what? She's not dirty. If she wants/needs to sleep later, fine but when she wakes she is to brush her teeth, wash her face and join ya'll at the table and for the day. AFTER the work is school work is done, she can get changed into clothes, she isn't leaving the house until her work is done anyway. 

 

No more waking late and then dawdling while showering, eating and getting dressed.

Sleep late --> Get up, wash face, brush teeth and join us for PH. After PH, have her do her work individual work in the skills.

 

[Heathermomster]

DS wakes at 7am so that he showers and is ready to go by 8am.  To get him up that early, he started taking melatonin at bedtime and goes to bed by 9pm. Once the routine was established, he sets his own bedtime; however, I need him up early because there are outside classes and he doesn't like schooling beyond a certain time.

 

If your child is sleeping over 12 hours, you might want to take her to the doctor and ensure her thyroid is OK and make certain that she has no iron or other nutritional deficits.

Edited January 29, 2016 by Heathermomster

[Arcadia]

When is sunrise where you are and is it bright or gloomy? My night owl would need the house flooded with light to be fully awake. Sunrise was around 7:30am but gloomy (dark clouds) and he woke up at 9am.

 

I would put your Power Hour to later in the day.

[ElizaG]

Not sure if this applies to your family, but anecdotally, it seems as if the "hormonal mess, sleeping all the time" happens more often with teenagers who are eating a lot of refined sugars and starches.  At this age, with so much physical growth going on, nutrition is especially important for mood and energy levels.

 

Maria Montessori -- who was a medical doctor, as well as an educator -- believed that 12-15 year olds require as pure, simple, and nutritious of a diet as 0-3 year olds.   Just in much larger quantities!   :001_rolleyes:  :001_smile:

[matrips]

My dd11 would always sleep as late as possible if I let her. I don't. I set an alarm 45 minutes before I need to see her. She's a poke in the morning, loses herself in the bathroom, etc. this way I don't start my day nagging and she gets to wake up slowly. I put her to bed between 8 and 8:30am so I logically know she's not sleep deprived. She'd just rather keep in than get up and do school or chores etc!

I need to start school in the morning for my own sanity, and that's just the rule in our house for homeschooling. Because she was disrupting our days by sleeping before we changed to the alarm clock this year. she doesn't love it, but she accepts it.

[Gil]

Oh Gil. Just wait until your kids are teens.  You will want them to be taking a shower when they wake up.  My kid is 14.  It's literally disgusting to have to sit next to him if he has not showered for the day. 

I spend enough time around teens to know that many of them stink, whatever.

 

Upon waking you can change your shirt and wash under your arms when you wake up to combat that. The point is to cut out the stuff that is rewarding to her while she is dawdling and putting a funk on everyone elses day.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would move along with the younger child.  I would write out a written schedule of independent assignments for the older one to follow when she got up.  Our doctor agreed with dd14 that she should be allowed to sleep late.  She does go to bed at a decent time but just cannot fall asleep. 

[Another Lynn]

I don't know if this would work for you, but I'll tell you how it works here.  We have our morning time at 9:00.  I used to require everyone be dressed and already have breakfast, etc. before they reported.  But, like you, I have some (14yo and 12yo) who would prefer to sleep until the last minute.  So, I let them.  I let them know at 8:55 that they have 5 minutes to come down to morning time.  They come.  We do morning time (usually 45 min - 1 hour).  When it's over, they go for showers and breakfast, etc.  It does make their overall school day longer, but it does force them to get up and allows us to start our day without waiting on any one person to finish eating or get dressed or whatever. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I spend enough time around teens to know that many of them stink, whatever.

 

Upon waking you can change your shirt and wash under your arms when you wake up to combat that. The point is to cut out the stuff that is rewarding to her while she is dawdling and putting a funk on everyone elses day.

 

I wish that would work.  It just does not.  I don't know what the deal is.

 

One day I kept sending him back to the bathroom to try various things because I could not stand it.  Nothing worked.  So now I insist he must bathe most mornings.  I cut him slack when it's a day I don't have to sit next to him for hours.

[Farrar]

I think you're making the right call... either split up their together schooling or flip it and do it as an afternoon or post-lunch thing.

 

I think you have to decide where your boundaries are. I think there have to be things you're willing to let go of and things you need to hold firm on. If you're a parent who can't let go of things, then you're not raising an individual, you've got a drone or something. She's not running the house or getting too much leeway as long as you know where those non-negotiable lines are and can keep them. Sleep hours just maybe isn't one in your house. It wouldn't be in mine either.

[Gil]

I wish that would work.  It just does not.  I don't know what the deal is.

 

One day I kept sending him back to the bathroom to try various things because I could not stand it.  Nothing worked.  So now I insist he must bathe most mornings.  I cut him slack when it's a day I don't have to sit next to him for hours.

During the adolescent years kids can't help that their hormones make them smell weird. I can't see the point in needling them to an extreme on the issue of their body naturally taking on a new smell. Some folks have bad diets which aggravate their BO, but many of them just can't help it. I don't see the point in making the kids that much more embarrassed uncomfortable in their own skin.

 

Just wear clean clothes and be mindful of freshening up throughout the day if you start sweating a lot. If its that bad then buy them some bodyscent or keep fan going in the window and pipe down about how much a pubescent human being stinks. Its not fair to hassle the kids about something that they can't help.

 

If they have urine or traces of fecal matter on their clothes that is giving a bad smell, then sure. Honey, you've gotta clean up. But if they just smell of human skin coated in bacteria that they can't help? Let it go.

[HomeAgain]

A 12yo is not going to fail because you give her structure.  She's just not.  You just have to get over that hump and into a new routine to make it happen, tears and crying don't matter.

 

Set a time, require her to be awake, dressed, and ready to go.  She has opportunity number one.  If she fails to meet it, she goes to bed earlier and gets up half an hour earlier for opportunity number two to take responsibility.  By the third, there is no longer the opportunity to be responsible.  She would get to meet me on my turf, up at 5am with me, where I sing off key until she's out of bed.  5am-8:30 is plenty of time to wake up, have a bite to eat, exercise (alone or with mom), shower, breakfast, and be ready to work after a bit of breathing time.

[zarabellesmom]

Well, I don't have a 12yo so I can't offer much advice except to say that I can understand your frustration. My oldest in a dawdler and would sleep in that late too if I let her. I have an alarm set in her room. That said, she is NOT a teenager and their sleep needs are different. I am sure of one thing though... My school hours are from 8 to 3. That is to say, Mommy quits after 3. Anything that is left is homework. I'm reasonable, if we followed some bunny trail and that put us behind, no problem. I'll cut your workload in other ways for the day. But, if the reason you still have work after I quit is because you dawdled or slept in--well, it isn't fair to keep me working just because you chose to keep different hours than me. I need from 3PM on to get everyone prepared for afternoon activities, do chores and prepare dinner. After dinner, I'm off the clock for anything that isn't fun. Want to play a game? Come see me.  Want to watch a movie together, read a book? I'm your girl. Go for a walk? I'm game.  Discuss that math problem that we didn't get to for faults not my own? See me in the morning and continue doing the work you don't need me for. Harsh? I hope not. I need time to be mommy and wife if I'm going to stay sane.

 

ETA: We all get up at 7AM.  I hate, nay loath it. But when we don't, no one has time for anything fun. I know part of the joy of homeschooling is for everyone to sleep in, but that just didn't work for us.

Edited January 29, 2016 by ZaraBellesMom

[lllll]

nm

Edited February 2, 2016 by - 8 95

[SparklyUnicorn]

During the adolescent years kids can't help that their hormones make them smell weird. I can't see the point in needling them to an extreme on the issue of their body naturally taking on a new smell. Some folks have bad diets which aggravate their BO, but many of them just can't help it. I don't see the point in making the kids that much more embarrassed uncomfortable in their own skin.

 

Just wear clean clothes and be mindful of freshening up throughout the day if you start sweating a lot. If its that bad then buy them some bodyscent or keep fan going in the window and pipe down about how much a pubescent human being stinks. Its not fair to hassle the kids about something that they can't help.

 

If they have urine or traces of fecal matter on their clothes that is giving a bad smell, then sure. Honey, you've gotta clean up. But if they just smell of human skin coated in bacteria that they can't help? Let it go.

 

I'm not mean to my kid, but I'm pretty sure he'd rather have me gently tell him to go clean up than be embarrassed by someone making fun of him.

[bethben]

I have the sleepy 15 year old also.  He gets up at around 8/ 8:30 and starts working unshowered in his room.  I will not be around him if he's not showered.  I don't need to look at an over 6 ft man child in ratty pajamas with breath and stink to sink a ship.  He's pretty much independent in his schoolwork.  I wouldn't try to get him down to do anything with the rest of us before 10 am.  

 

The pediatrician (who's a homeschool dad) mentioned that if teens are sleeping to 11/ 12 every day, this may be an indicator of depression.  

[Soror]

A few thoughts...

 

I have a 11.5 y.o. myself when he starts sleeping late it is generally because he stayed up too late, too many days in a row of this and we give a reminder not to stay up too late reading, that generally takes care of it as this is usually his problem. However, if it did not and he just starts needing more sleep I would keep in mind the research that it is better for the teenager's brain to have that extra time and sleep in a bit. One of the perks of hs'ing is to follow our own schedule. Personally I'm (generally) an early riser but I know not all people are and I am loath to wake up any of the kids if I can ever avoid it.

 

Diet is something to consider, late night electronic time(ds is not allowed access at night as he would not have the control to stay off), lights at night(complete darkness is absolute best but my kids like some light), white noise and physical activity(or the lack thereof) can effect sleep for all of us- I'd be given those some thought. Past that if it is just a kid going to bed at a reasonable time and waking up later I'd likely flip the schedule and let them start on their independent stuff earlier so they can have time to wake up. I would however be giving some reminders that bad attitudes are not ok and we would be doing some brainstorming on what needed to be done to make sure she was able to treat family members in a respectable manner.

Edited January 29, 2016 by soror

[Loowit]

I think that the answer on how to handle it is so individual to the family.  In my family, if it were just DD then I would be fine with her sleeping in as long as she wants.  The rule would be she needs to have schoolwork and chores done before she can do afternoon/evening activities.  She would mess up a few times but learn from it.  But the reality is that I have two other children and myself to think about too.  We are a family that needs to work together.  So my rule is that everyone is up and ready by 9 am every morning.  This is the only thing that really has worked for us.  I have tried to be more laid back and nothing got done.  For a while I also had to set a time I was done for the day, 3 pm.  I was getting too burnt out trying to go all day from wake up to bedtime doing school.  It left me drained and not able to function well as a teacher or as a mom.  Having structure and guidelines really helped, but it took a while to get into the swing of things.

 

I have had to make a few changes lately.  My youngest has been taking medications that are messing with his sleep.  So on days he sleeps over I let him sleep.  This is a temporary things while we work on his medications doses and timing. 

[Soror]

I  So my rule is that everyone is up and ready by 9 am every morning.  This is the only thing that really has worked for us.  I have tried to be more laid back and nothing got done. 

I can understand this, my son likes to do his independent work first and sometimes our mornings would be finished and math still wouldn't be done, afternoons are very hit or miss for me so I had to tell him math had to be done earlier so I could help. 

[mamiof5]

At what time is she going to bed? If she needs that much sleep she needs to get to bed earlier. Her late wake up time is affecting everyone else, and that's not fair to you or the others.

[lewelma]

My 12 year old went through a 6 month period where he needed 11 hours of sleep.  That is just a LOT of sleep and it is really hard to get that much and still be a part of the family. I required him to be in bed at 8 with a flashlight and a *boring* book (literature of some sort, not pop fantasy for example).  He could usually get to sleep by 9, up by 8, ready to start by 9.  But then sometimes there was stuff happening and he would be up until 10, and I will say that this happened at least 2 times a week. It is just hard to have to leave family time to go to bed because you need 11 hours and the rest of us only need 8 1/2.  So that would throw the next day off.  So in the end, I chose not to make it a huge big deal.  Yes we were supposed to start at 9, but if it had to be 10 then it had to be 10, he just had to work later. I also got him a sleep app on his phone so he could track his sleep patterns.  This was actually very interesting to him because it objectively noted when he went to sleep and the quality of his sleep.  It helped him to take his sleep more seriously, and take ownership of an appropriate bed time so he was well rested.

 

No way around it 12 year olds are tricky to work with.

 

Ruth in NZ

[Dmmetler]

A lot of the fitness trackers track amount and quality of sleep. I'm considering getting my 11 yr old one more for sleep than anything else.

[happypamama]

Yep, btdt. My solution is this:

-work with whomever is awake, when they're awake. So usually it's the boys aged 10 and 7 up and breakfasted first, so I work with one of them and then the other.

-I don't combine for much, and I will combine even less next year when DD is in ninth grade. I combine for supplemental stuff like cultural literacy, geography review, hymn study, art and composer study, sometimes a little science. They have their own history.

-We do group work around 11 or after lunch, rather than first thing in the morning.

-I generally work with DD, my oldest, in the afternoon when everyone else is done. She will work later into the afternoon or evening, or she does her independent work before lunch.

[MerryAtHope]

I didn't get to read all of the answers, but is it possible to have your 8 yo do all of her independent and one on one work with you first, and then do morning meeting with your 12 yo at 11? (I think I would talk with dd 12 about having a set morning meeting time, and have her set an alarm for 10 am. At this age, kids do need more sleep, but if she's in bed by 10, she can get up to 12 hours, which should be enough. If she's staying up late in her room, you may need to address that--but come up with a workable solution together. I found that when I talked with my kids, they usually realized that it was reasonable to make concessions so the family could work together and function.) 

[EKS]

We have a rule that school starts at 8 am.  No exceptions.  We've had that rule since we started homeschooling 13 years ago because as the teacher, I don't want to be dealing with school stuff beyond 3:00.  And frankly, since I'm the teacher and the parent and it's my house and I'm the one who is ultimately responsible for the whole homeschooling thing, and for that matter, the bills and the groceries and simply making everything run smoothly--I get to call the shots.

[...................]

My dd is the late sleeper here and she is also 12. But if she is not up by 7:30, I wake her up unless she is sick. Guess what?  If you wake them up early every single day eventually they get tired earlier, and get back on a better schedule.

 

 Make sure she has no screen time two hours before bed, eats healthy and gets exercise too...

 

You don't have to wake her up at 7:30...you could try 8:00.  But 10 or 11 is totally unrealistic...she won't be able to function if she has outside activities, morning classes, a summer job, etc.  :o)  

 

But on another note, once they get to middle school, it's very difficult to combine...

[J&JMom]

Haven't read all the posts, but my DS13 will sleep until the last possible moment.  I announce school starts in 15 minutes, then 5. At 8:30 he wanders out still in sleep clothes and a blanket to sit on the couch for our 45 minute read aloud. After than he can get breakfast, change clothes and do his independent reading while I work with his brother. He is then ready to go at 10:00 for his class with me.  Works so far. He doesn't stink yet, so we will cross that bridge when we get to it.  BTW DS10 is up by 7:30 to get computer time in before school. They both are sent to their rooms around 9:30-10:00 pm.  

I refuse to start to any later as I want school 'done' by 3:30. If he hasn't finished his work because he dawdled, that's on him. I'm off the clock.  

Edited January 30, 2016 by J&JMom

[FriedClams]

I'm an "everyone up by 7" mom. I have two teens. They'd often like to sleep in, but we don't get anything done if they do. They're welcome to go to bed earlier if they want (lights out is usually around 10). I'm also of the ilk that thinks sleeping in every day doesn't prepare my kids for "real life". That might have been mine or my DH's years in the military. :-)

Edited January 30, 2016 by FriedClams

[Chelli]

Thanks so much for all the comments and suggestions!

 

I have a good half page of things to talk over with dd12 to see if we can come to a workable solution.

 

Like some pp's said, it's not so much the amount of sleep that bothers me, but how it's effecting everything else. I too believe that homeschooling lets my kids get the amount of sleep they need whereas so many children don't, but I need that sleep to come within a workable time frame. 

 

And, yes, I'm realizing that content subject combining will just not work like it used to. While dd8 is very smart, dd12 is ready for deeper reading, discussion, etc. that dd8 is just not ready for. 

[EKS]

During the adolescent years kids can't help that their hormones make them smell weird. I can't see the point in needling them to an extreme on the issue of their body naturally taking on a new smell. Some folks have bad diets which aggravate their BO, but many of them just can't help it. I don't see the point in making the kids that much more embarrassed uncomfortable in their own skin.

 

Just wear clean clothes and be mindful of freshening up throughout the day if you start sweating a lot. If its that bad then buy them some bodyscent or keep fan going in the window and pipe down about how much a pubescent human being stinks. Its not fair to hassle the kids about something that they can't help.

 

If they have urine or traces of fecal matter on their clothes that is giving a bad smell, then sure. Honey, you've gotta clean up. But if they just smell of human skin coated in bacteria that they can't help? Let it go.

Or they could just get up at a reasonable time and take a five minute shower. That way everyone is happy.

[Reefgazer]

I've got a 13 year old like this, and I am usually inclined to let a body do what it's got to do (sleep until 11 AM in the case of my DD).  The problem is that I work nights and need to be out of the house by 5 PM.  Since I don't get home until 10:30 PM and need to get up by 7-8 AM, we must get our work done (2 kids) in reasonable daytime hours.  I don't combine my kids for anything; they are 2 years apart and have different interests.  DD *must* get up and get a move on because my schedule dictates so.  I tell her it gets done during normal daytime hours or it becomes evening/Saturday work - I don't have a choice. 

[Mommy to monkeys]

At what time is she going to bed? If she needs that much sleep she needs to get to bed earlier. Her late wake up time is affecting everyone else, and that's not fair to you or the others.

These are my thoughts exactly. Keep bumping her bedtime earlier and earlier until she's able to get up without major meltdown issues. I'm not a morning person, so I get that. But 10 is just really really late!

 

I drag my kids out of bed shortly before 8 (except for my toddlers and my 11 year old who is one of those crazy morning people). Then we all get to be grumpy together for awhile. All I have to say to my 13 year old is, "8:45.. . . 8:30.. . . . .8:15" and he will get his butt up. Nothing worse for him than sending him to bed earlier. ;) 

[Pen]

My main current approach has been to put ds in charge of getting his own work done, and except for math to figure out what his work consists of Unschool style. No PH type things, he already hated that when he was in brick and mortar school and it was done as morning circle time when he was 6, so dropping that was part of the switch to home school.  Is there something about it that is critical in your home?

 

In your place, I think I'd establish a reasonable time for both of you like maybe 11AM--she would be up and you would still be relatively fresh presumably-- when you meet to go over her work for an hour or so. If she wants / needs more time with you then schedule a time that is mutually convenient and expect her to live up to that meeting.

 

 

 

 

 

so it is taking us until after dinner most nights to finish everything.

 

It is fine if she wants to work that late, IMO, but you should not have to do so.  I would tell her that she cannot expect you to do it with her then anymore than she could expect a teacher in a school to help at 10PM (or 6PM or 8PM--or indeed any time after the ending school bell rings for the day). Your available times are set out clearly. She does her work independently of you, for the most part, when she likes so long as she gets it done. If she needs help, she can only get it during your available times. 12 is plenty old enough to do a lot of school work independently, and at her stage that may be a happier option for her.

 

If she is sick, that is different and needs to be figured out, but probably it is not the situation.

 

Welcome to the teens.

[abba12]

My dh says I'm letting dd12 call the shots too much and that I need to be mean mom with her more. The problem there is that when I am more strict and structured with her it backfires and she goes into complete melt down mode and nothing gets accomplished at that point. However, she's 12 and in 6th grade, she has more school work now than she did a couple of years ago so it is taking us until after dinner most nights to finish everything. 

 

My kids are young so I'm just speaking from my experiences (and DHs experiences)  of two eldests from large families

 

She melts down because a. teens melt down and b. she knows you will give in. If you push through the meltdown you might be surprised what she can do on the other side of it.

 

DH and I both woke up at 6am as teenagers. I don't feel that I was somehow chronically sleep deprived. The amount of sleep someone needs and the amount of sleep someone desires are different things. In our houses growing up, wake-up-time was set. If we were sleepy at 8pm then we would go to bed early, and the teens would take naps with the toddlers sometimes when they were having growth spurts. I'd do all I could to accomodate that. But breakfast happened at 7am, and if you hadn't opened your books by 8am there was a problem. Not all families need to be as early as ours of course, but figure out your familys wake up time, and set it. Sleeps ins are for weekends, nothing is stopping her from having a nap or early night if she's drowsy at the end of the day from an early wakeup time. 

 

I'd set a wake up time, set a breakfast time, and set an 'at your desk ready to start the day' time. Be reasonable, but be consistent, and ride out the initial meltdown. Otherwise the other kids schoolwork is being controlled by their sister, and that breeds resentment, trust me. My mother allowed my difficult sibling to sleep in for awhile, and she just got worse and worse and took it further and further until she wasn't beginning school until 3pm which meant the rest of us couldn't go out or do anything. That's when mum put her foot down. And it wasn't a matter of 'oh she just wasn't a 'morning person'. She now wakes up at 4am for a 5am start at her job, she is just fine in the mornings, she just needed a reason to get up and to get her body used to the habit. Give her a reason. 

 

Oh Gil. Just wait until your kids are teens.  You will want them to be taking a shower when they wake up.  My kid is 14.  It's literally disgusting to have to sit next to him if he has not showered for the day. 

 

I dunno what your kids are doing/eating, but no one ever required morning showers in my house or my husbands house growing up. In fact, DH and his two similar age brothers often showered once every two days as teenagers because there was one shower to divide between 8 kids. There was no BO issues. In fact I still don't understand the fuss about BO. I know I've never had to deal with it and neither has DH and some families do, I'm sorry for them, but don't assume it's a consistent problem across the board, it definitely isn't. 

[lllll]

nm

Edited February 2, 2016 by - 8 95

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

My teens are not combined in a way that requires them to be ready at same time.

 

They did have to make a choice around 11/12 though. They could sleep in and do school later in the day. That is fine with me. But then they would miss getting online when their friends did later, and other activities because their work isn't done in time to do those things.

 

They've chosen to set an alarm and get up. During growth spurts or illness they get extra wiggle room with sleep and schedules.

 

 

It took a bit to get this all sorted in our house but it works now.

[maize]

I let my 12 year old sleep in.

 

We often end up doing some school work in the evening.

[Soror]

At this age, kids' body clocks shift. Their temperature ( which is involved in sleep ) drops later than it used to, meaning it's harder for them to go to sleep and wake up early. It's nothing to do with being lazy, or trying to 'run the house'.

 

Let her sleep ( although I'd have a later but consistent wake time ). 

 

Work with her later in the day.

Yes, I remember reading a book and some research about this, very compelling evidence. I can't remember any titles now.

[Tanikit]

My first thought when I read this was that it sounds medical - I believe hormonal issues are medical even if natural though so take that with a pinch of salt.

Firstly is she cycling and if so is she more tired and more grumpy the last few days before her period starts? She may genuinely need more sleep then and more space.

Secondly have you had her thyroid checked (hypothyroidism is uncommon in such young children though but can happen)and is she hypoglycaemic in the morning hours - one needs a cortisol rush in the mornings to get going properly - if she suffers from stress and anxiety she can also battle to get up in the mornings and need more time to get going (in which case waking her earlier may help so she has time to start the day more slowly and still be ready on time)

What is she doing all day - does she get enough exercise, is her diet healthy - vegetables, protein, fruit etc? Is she actually sleeping well and for the time you Think she is sleeping? Is she too busy and doing too many activities or too inactive?

Does she do relaxing things? How much time does she spend alone and how much with friends and family?

Is she drinking water rather than fizzy drinks and if so is she drinking more or less than normal or totally normally?

 

If all this is normal, then I would definitely just look at reasonable expectations for a 12 year and just stick to them while working with your 8 year old as normal. 

 

 

[MEmama]

Mine needs 11-12 hours of sleep every single night. Since he's turning his lights out around 9pm now, that means a much later start to the mornings than I would prefer. He has sports every afternoon, so our available school hours are pretty set during the day. However, honestly? I'm a huge proponent of sleep. If math gets done after dinner or we review spelling words in the car to make use of available time because he needed to sleep, so what? He would be a mess without it so interrupting him would be counter productive anyway.

 

I'd say let the teen sleep. :)

[RootAnn]

I completely understand the wants-to-sleep-late kid, the melt-down kid, and the needs-lots-of-sleep kid. My two oldest are at or past the age range you list & I know of which you speak.

 

I'd have a must-get-up-by time & a must-get-working-by-time. I'd explain the reasons why and have a goal time to shoot for, but incrementally work toward it.

So, if she sleeps until 10 or 11, I'd first shoot for up by 10:30, working by 11:15.

Then, in a week, it'd be up by 10:15, working by 11:00.

The goal would be that by the beginning of March to be at whatever your goal time is (up by 8:45, working by 9:30?).

 

I'd also make sure you are consistent with waking her (with the goal being she eventually gets herself up) and enforcing whatever consequences you set. I agree with a previous poster that you'll probably have to police her lights-out time as I suspect she's staying up later than you think. She might not be able to actually go to sleep earlier right now, but that's why you are doing this incrementally. You are trying to get her body used to getting up at this time every day - including weekends. I would absolutely get her up at the same time on Saturday & Sunday during the getting-to-goal phase (now until March). 

 

If my oldest gets to bed late (reading a book, on the computer, taking forever to shower, or just can't-go-to-sleep), she naturally wants to sleep later and is very crabby at the wake-up. If she gets to bed at her normal time, she will get herself up and moving before someone has to haul her out of bed. (She has two alarms - both set - but consistently sleeps through them both.)

[kbutton]

Would prepping her stuff the night before help with dawdling? People who wake up slowly might need autopilot for some things. 

[theelfqueen]

Here, make yourself feel better :

 

http://time.com/money/4027024/sleep-expert-workday-10-am/

 

 

I don't really buy it, but hey at least it sounds good.

[theelfqueen]

I agree that many are chronically sleep deprived; but we know that those in societies that aren't driven by clocks are often early risers...agricultural societies often involve an early-to-bed, early-to-rise model. We need more sleep but I don't think it really needs to be in the morning hours, I think most people are staying up far later than their body signals them to sleep, especially teens. They work past their first tired urges and get a 'second-wind' that often carries them late into the night.

 

11 AM does not fit into the patterns that we have seen in historical records or cultures not driven by modern work schedules.

[Critterfixer]

Does she have time for a little nap at some point in the day? I'm wondering if she needs to get her eight hours at night but get an additional hour or so during the day.

[abba12]

I agree that many are chronically sleep deprived; but we know that those in societies that aren't driven by clocks are often early risers...agricultural societies often involve an early-to-bed, early-to-rise model. We need more sleep but I don't think it really needs to be in the morning hours, I think most people are staying up far later than their body signals them to sleep, especially teens. They work past their first tired urges and get a 'second-wind' that often carries them late into the night.

 

11 AM does not fit into the patterns that we have seen in historical records or cultures not driven by modern work schedules.

 

Exactly. People slept with the sun, and woke with the sun. Sleeping in until lunchtime and staying up until midnight is no more natural than only sleeping for 6 hours. People don't want to sacrifice their evening hours, which are typically regarded as the leisure hours, for sleep, and would rather begin the day later since the mornings are for 'work' and they are happy to delay them. 

 

I agree, teens need more sleep, many teens need 10+ hours. But those hours should be in the evening or during a nap/siesta (I have wished, many times, that our society would adopt a siesta culture! I think it is so much healthier than sleep patterns now!)  No one is debating the biological need for sleep, just whether that sleep should occur by sleeping in later or going to bed earlier.