is a tidy home unrealistic at this stage of life?

[pinkmint]

That's my question. Is a tidy house unrealistic at this stage of life (several small children, small home, home all the time because of homeschool)? My house is often trashed and just looking at it makes me feel mentally unstable. I feel like the mess literally effects my memory, my stress level, my ability to concentrate etc.  I want to believe that there is some way to control the clutter and barrage of child's play aftermath... I just can't get a handle on it though and I wonder if I should give up in some sense until my kids are older. 

 

I have 3 children ages 6, 5 and 1. I also have a husband, so that's 5 people living in roughly 1,000 square feet, which is significantly smaller than the average American home.

 

I think the idea of getting kids to clean up after themselves is great. For whatever reason I have not been able to achieve this with my kids. 

 

I also struggle with this quandary: what is the proper balance between having a home that is well equipped with the items that facilitate living, learning, playing etc for a family who is home a lot (homeschool) vs. being prudent about preventing accumulation of too much stuff, especially living in a small space. Can someone articulate where this balance is if you feel you have it figured out somewhat???

 

Another thing is: places to put things. I feel like we don't have enough places to put things. We have a small garage and it's basically a sea of busted cardboard boxes and trash bags containing stuff we're not using right now. I would like to set up a wall of shelves and storage containers, but that project is a cost prohibitive expense right now. So if my only option is having what looks like a landfill of "stored" items, should I just get rid of it all? 

 

When I hear/ read people's pep talks about being ruthless against clutter, it sounds inspiring in theory, but in reality it's more difficult and complicated. Edited to add -- the pep talks about "embracing the chaos" of having young children also sounds good until you find yourself with legitimate mental issues... so where is the balance?

 

Any thoughts?

[albeto.]

it wasn't for me.

 

there's something magical and beautiful about a home where honest beauty is found in the life of its family, and decor be damned. enjoy your kids when they're young, untidy, sloppy, messy, goofy, silly, sweet. there will be time for a quiet, tidy house later. 

 

:)

 

[SKL]

I am the same way when my house is a mess.  I think it makes me do stupid things even.  However, yes, it is normal that the house is going to be messy a lot of the time.

 

It helps to sort of compartmentalize, and try to have one area of the house that is always pretty clean (so you can escape there sometimes).  :)  And try to teach yourself not to "see" the mess when you know, rationally, that it's OK mess.

 

And once in a while, I just put everything else on hold and turboclean.  Even though it only lasts a while, it helps.

[regentrude]

I have only two children, but we lived in a 700 sq ft apartment when they were little, which is a typical size for my home country. So, it is possible to live in smaller spaces. I found that we, and my friends back home, owned significantly less stuff than the average American. Most people do not have garages or other extended storage spaces, except for a shared basement room.

Thus, my first suggestion for tidying is to get rid of things you do not need and to limit toys to quality items and educational items that serve a clear purpose which is not doubled by another item. No crummy plastic toys from happy meals etc, be judicious when accepting items somebody else is giving away - even though they are free. they take up your valuable space.

 

With little kids, you won't achieve a look that is worthy of BetterHomes and Gardens. But you can have oases of order and calm - children's items do not have to take over every room in the house. We used to keep toys in the kids' bedroom which doubled as playroom. Anything brought into the living room could be used there, but had to be cleaned up and put away at the end of the day. This helped keep one room reasonably free of kid clutter. On the other hand, in the kids' room forts, playmobil creations, doll tea parties etc could stay set up.

 

It has been my general observation that tidiness is less about the absolute amount of space available and more about every item having a designated location where it lives. That goes for grown up clutter as well as for kids' items.

 

ETA: about storing: you can store items neatly in intact labeled cardboard boxes without it looking like "landfill" or costing money.

If you want shelves, i recommend IKEA's Ivar system.

[Mimm]

I don't think it's unrealistic. If it's a really high priority in your life and you have natural skills in this area. I apparently do not because I'm terribly at having a tidy house and my house is almost always a wreck. I work really hard to get better at it but I'm still in awe of women who juggle twice as many kids as I do and keep a neat house. I think they have a lot less stuff, they enjoy housework to a certain extent and they aren't nearly as scattered and disorganized as I am. They are able to focus and not get distracted and they are very motivated.

[solascriptura]

It depends on your priorities. It wasn't worth the amount of nagging I would have to do in order to keep the house picked up. Nor did I want to trail after my kids picking up everything that they left in their path. Give it a few years and it will get better.

[barnwife]

Well, our kids are 5, 3, and 2. Our entire house is rarely tidy. Different parts are tidy at different times. It works for us, but would drive my mom nuts. (I can't ever remember anything out of place as a child. She is constantly cleaning.)

As for the accumulation of stuff, our house is large (we live in what used to be a barn, hence my username). Yet, even with plenty of space for the 5 of us, I dislike stuff. I don't mind things that are loved or used. But if it isn't loved or used, it's in danger of me taking it to the thrift store.

So how do I balance that with HS? I remind myself that there have been lots of well-educated people throughout history who owned much less stuff than we do. I bring in things that I find worthwhile and don't feel bad about passing other things on. For us, that means I keep lots of books and creative, open-ended toys (balls, blocks, dress-up stuff, toy kitchen stuff, dollhouse stuff). 

Disclaimer: My oldest is younger than yours, so please take all my thoughts with a grain of salt. 

[freesia]

I think it's normal at that stage in the game. I found when the kids were small and we were in small spaces, it was much harder. We were in around your square footage at the same point. When we moved to the same square footage but 2 stories, that helped a lot b/c things didn't travel downstairs.

 

That said:

Try to institute 5 minute clean ups a few times a day. Set your phone or just plan it before lunch and before dinner. Basically, I would set the timer and everyone would clean like mad and then stop as soon as the timer went off no matter how much we got done. Knowing they could stop made it feel less daunting. Five minutes made a big difference and your 2 oldest are capable of getting a lot done in that time.

 

One thing I never did,but meant to was to rotate toys. You bag or bin up a selection (maybe btwn 3 bins) then bag up a new bin each montha and bring out a new one.

 

And,they will get older and although things get rough around here,with so many bigs cleaning goes a lot faster and easier.

[Tsuga]

I am the same way when my house is a mess. I think it makes me do stupid things even. However, yes, it is normal that the house is going to be messy a lot of the time.

 

It helps to sort of compartmentalize, and try to have one area of the house that is always pretty clean (so you can escape there sometimes). :) And try to teach yourself not to "see" the mess when you know, rationally, that it's OK mess.

 

And once in a while, I just put everything else on hold and turboclean. Even though it only lasts a while, it helps.

Yes. I need a tidy, clean sitting room and clean kitchen counter. Clorox wipes. I do minimal rinsing and shove everything in the dishwasher. Everything else can be falling apart but I need that space to sit and to know I can make food. I also keep Clorox wipes in the bathroom and wipe down the toilet once a day. So no matter what a guest can visit and see that we are clean people and have a place to sit down and have coffee. Sometimes the person who enjoys that is just me.

 

Even when we had just an apartment, toys stayed in the bedroom.

 

So while I think a tidy home is unrealistic, a tidy room and clean sinks and toilets thanks to Clorox or Kirkland wipes, are not. But it's a process.

 

It gets better!

[SamanthaCarter]

I don't know where the balance between:

 

realizing that tidy is an unrealistic expectation at this stage of life >< making sure you can think, function, maintain some mental stability 

 

I know your quandary. 

[JustEm]

I have 4 children ages 6,5,2, and 8 months. My house can get quite chaotic but the one room that is always neat and orderly by the end the day is my bedroom. I find waking up in a calm environment helps me not go crazy over all the clutter of the other house. It also helps me stay motivated to get and keep everything else tidy. My 2 oldest clean up toys when they are done with them. if they forget and I notice I simply ask them to stop what they're doing and put away what they just had out. If things get too crazy because of a filled schedule, sick person, or whatever reason we spend 15 minutes as a family cleaning a particular area. With 5 people cleaning the same area it gets done fast and doesn't seem daunting for the kids. On really untidy days we may end up doing four 15 minute cleaning sessions over the course of the day. This system works great. My 2 year old lasts about 5 minutes max of cleaning but he'll build up to more.

 

The balance between too much and not enough for me is where I am now. I am able to live with all the stuff we have and not become overwhelmed with keeping it stored neatly and the house tidy. If that changes then I need to reevaluate the things we have. I did a major purging of items over the summer roughly following the konmarie method to get to where I am. The home is much more peaceful but we still have a lot, just not too much anymore.

[texasmama]

Maybe you can set yourself a goal to go through one box in the garage per day/week/whatever.  Don't worry that it all must get done at once.  Give to the Goodwill or some other organization the things you no longer need.  I recently put a large box by the door to the garage and determined to fill it with things we didn't need and take it to the Goodwill.  This helped me to go through and do it.  It took a couple of weeks, but when it was full, I took it.  Start with small goals  Don't worry that it takes a long time to get them accomplished.  

[Tess in the Burbs]

I think everyone will vary in how they define tidy.  At those ages I went for an evening cleanup.  Kids had to get any toys in the school/living/kitchen areas put away before bed.  Their rooms were more weekly.  But main living areas we all put things away before bed.  They had shelves and baskets to put toys in.  Everything had a place that it could be thrown in to. Not really stand up straight organized, but a 'place' to toss it in.  

 

I stopped decorating the house when my kids were young.  Cleaning was easier if I few items to dust lol.  

 

Even now, our main areas are tidied up more than private bedrooms.  Their school area is a mess during the week, but everyone gets organized for the new week every weekend.  

 

With young kids I tried to focus on less toys and having a place to put them.  We had a lot of baskets lining our rooms to help the kids know where to put things.  

[cjzimmer1]

I certainly can't say I have arrived but in KonMari style  we have been ruthlessly purging around here.  I did the toys, against the kids wishes and they were sad at the time but now everyone says they like things so much better.  We had FIFTEEN Little people sets.  I only have one toddler (and a 7 year old who also likes them).  We kept a few, sold the rest.  We only kept sets of things that have lasting value (wooden thomas stuff stays, plastic trains went away) etc.  Cheap toys got dumped, things that we waiting for me to get around to fixing them got dumped etc.  The toddler still dumps stuff out every day but instead of taking hours to sort and put things away it takes 10 minutes.  We also stole an idea from our church's daycare.  Make picture labels for where things go.  Great matching practice for the toddler and help for 7 year old who just wants to stuff things in corners rather than think about where they go. 

 

I use to be a big believe of keeping things "just in case" or when I free time I would like to use this and I finally realized that there was really no point.  "When I get around to it" very likely will never happen but if it does I can worry about reacquiring the object then and in the meantime I'm not moving said object for the next x number of years.

[pinkmint]

I use to be a big believe of keeping things "just in case" or when I free time I would like to use this and I finally realized that there was really no point.  "When I get around to it" very likely will never happen but if it does I can worry about reacquiring the object then and in the meantime I'm not moving said object for the next x number of years.

 

I have a hard time with this mindset. 

 

I feel wasteful if I get rid of stuff that I know I might need, and yes, there actually has been a few times where I regretted getting rid of something but I feel like I want permission to stop saving things for this reason. I really don't like doing it, and our life doesn't have room for it for the most part. 

[texasmama]

I have a hard time with this mindset. 

 

I feel wasteful if I get rid of stuff that I know I might need, and yes, there actually has been a few times where I regretted getting rid of something but I feel like I want permission to stop saving things for this reason. I really don't like doing it, and our life doesn't have room for it for the most part. 

I have exactly this mindset so I understand.  I have a terrible time throwing away anything that is not complete trash.  I stored things that I might use someday because I hate the thought of having to purchase something I had and got rid of.  Rarely do I need these things, though.  I kept a bunch of curtains that were given to me for years and never used them.  I finally got rid of them and felt so much better.  Someday, if I want some curtains, I can go get some.  They are not a high dollar item (the ones I gave away).  

 

I also do better if I do a little at a time, so just go through each room and pick one or two things you can give away- or go through one box.  I am also sentimental so I have an easier time letting things go to people I know and like.  I give away a lot of homeschool materials this way.  

 

Make a pass through an area and then in a week make another pass and you will be surprised at the things that you don't need.

 

ETA:  I would say that maybe 5-10% of the time I have regretted getting rid of things and the rest of the time I never missed them.

[abba12]

My house is often trashed and just looking at it makes me feel mentally unstable. I feel like the mess literally effects my memory, my stress level, my ability to concentrate etc.  

 

Haven't read other responses.

 

I find a messy house makes me very unable to cope. I have mental health issues, and if the house is messy I shut down and simply can't function beyond the very basics. I also have three little ones (though, thankfully, a fairly large house) who like messes. So I needed some way to control things.

 

Firstly I gave up on the WHOLE house being clean. I figured out what I NEEDED. We have an open plan kitchen/dining/lounge area. That was my place, if that was clean I could ignore the rest of the house. Clean kitchen, clean dining room table for school, and clean, pleasant lounge room to spend time in. Unfortunately that's also the littlest ones primary play area, and our school area. But it made a smaller, achievable goal. The rest of the house, as long as it is all clean at least once-a-week on our cleaning day I can cope with. 

 

We established that waking up to a mess, first thing in the morning, had the biggest impact. So it was decided that, whether the kids do it or DH does it or I do it, that space would be cleaned fully every night. It takes time but it helps me so much, and because it's a small goal I've had a lot of success getting the kids to do it independently. We also do a mid-day tidy to keep on top of clutter in those rooms, and I am careful about putting away school, or cleaning the kitchen after me, when I finish tasks. I can usually keep it controlled in that area.

 

And then I just don't go into the rest of the house unless I absolutely have to, lol. 

[Ausmumof3]

Not for me. When we had two kids I managed to get it tidy most evenings but three pushed it over the edge. Various stuff came up that made me realise that the relationships in the family were not worth sacrificing on the clean house altar.

 

My youngest is three and I'm konmari ing and it's slowly starting to come together again but it will never be a show home. I'm lucky enough to have had older sisters who went through the messy house stage and came out of it so I believe there's hope.

[Prairie~Phlox]

It all depends. We used to live in a small house, If it were really messy, I could not function, I like things tidy & keep very little. Even when we got rid of stuff, if we needed things, God always provided. I don't hang on to a lot, that's just my personality. Good luck.

[MercyA]

I feel wasteful if I get rid of stuff that I know I might need, and yes, there actually has been a few times where I regretted getting rid of something but I feel like I want permission to stop saving things for this reason. I really don't like doing it, and our life doesn't have room for it for the most part. 

 

The time and energy you spend storing/moving/caring for things you might need someday are worth way more than the things themselves. Free space is also much more valuable than whatever unnecessary things you are hanging on to. Get rid of them! It's liberating. Trust me, your mental health is worth much more than holding onto that $5 whatever-it-is.  :grouphug:

[knoxinsox]

Its not unreasonable to want a clean space. It drives me batty to see a huge mess that I didn't make, but no one else will clean up.

 

What helped us was doing a massive declutter....we got rid of toys, but I still rotate them out so that they are not all out at one time and making a big mess.  Grownup clutter was also a huge part of our problem---hubby has collections and I have lots of sewing, canning and cooking things.  I would estimate that we decluttered 2/3 of our things before we moved into our 1200 sq. ft mobile home, and I am still decluttering as we get ready to move again.  

There is just so much we don't need and I personally was drowning in the stuff and upkeep of stuff.  Its not how I want to spend my life.  Decluttering has freed me from upkeep, I don't need as much storage, and I have more space in our small house.  I can't even remember most of what I got rid of.  Best thing I ever did for my sanity!!!

 

ETA:  If its not priceless and is easy to get under $20, then you can let it go. The other thing I read once, is to let Goodwill )or the equivalent) be your storage area---donate, and if you need it, rebuy. I am in a really wonderful supportive decluttering group on Facebook -- Annual Declutter Challenge (via Slow Your Home) and its been pretty awesome in helping me process my feelings about things. :-) 

[KSinNS]

My house is a mess, and it bugs me, but I have to accept it for now. I'm working on it. Do you have a local toy lending library? That can be a plus for bringing toys in for a few weeks then switching them out, and just own the very favourites/best. 

[BooksandBoys]

I need my home to be relatively tidy because mess and clutter overload my sensory issues and make me feel scattered, overwhelmed, angry, you name it. It's not ever clean enough, but I think we do a pretty good job.

 

I am so grateful that I now live in a bigger house because that helps me, but last year, we had three kids aged 6, 3, and 1, a cat and two adults in 1100 square feet and still managed to keep it neat. Here are my tips:

 

Ruthlessly cut the toys. We've always had fewer than I'd say is typical, but when we downsized into 1100, most toys went away. Toys were also rotated. If Lego was in the house, trains, blocks, and cars were in boxes in the garage. This big set (for example, trains) were stored in a plastic bin the sat next to the bookcase in the living room. Miscellaneous toys had to fit in the two fabric boxes on the bottom shelf of the bookcase in the main room. Clean up was just dump toys into the two fabric boxes and the trains into the bin.

 

The living room bookcase held the books that were in active rotation, the rest were in bedrooms. Books go on the main room bookcase when cleaning up. When the bookcase filled up, I would cart the books back to their bedroom and we'd start again. This way, we aren't running around to bedrooms getting distracted when cleaning up. I also kept homeschooling books on this bookcase. A rolling drawer cart in the corner by the table held the pencils, workbooks, art supplies.

 

I ruthlessly decluttered kitchen stuff. If it was a labor saving device, it had to be used weekly if it wanted to live in my house. Ww got rid of lots of dishes. I had one bin of extra kitchen stuff in the garage that held the holiday prep stuff like cake pans and a roaster. Kitchen was cleaned every night before bed, and I emptied the dishwasher first thing in the morning so that dishes could go in immediately. I kept the counters clear except for the coffee pot.

 

Clothes: the kids had five outfits each per season. Out of season clothes were in bins in the garage. PS, bins stack so nicely that they are invaluable if you don't have shelves. Just label clearly! They had one jacket and one coat. They have one pair of shoes per season and rain boots that can be worn in a pinch anytime. I had even less clothing than the kids. There is nothing in bedrooms except clothes, books, and beds (three kids in one room).

 

Out of season sheets are in bins. We have two sets of sheets per season per bed (our extra set goes on the air mattress if we have company). Guests were given the pillows from my pillow shams. Extra blankets are in bins in summer, on beds in winter. I had 7 towels (two extra for guests).

 

Books are my weakness. We have thousands. If they didn't fit on the bookcases, I made myself get rid of some. Argh! A used boxes on some bookcases to contain small educational things. A box for manipulatives, a box for puzzles (puzzles are stored in ziploc bags with the picture from the box, so they fit), etc. I really like diaper boxes for this stuff (I cover the end with white paper and label the paper. It makes the room neater to cover up the diaper box with simple white paper.

 

I have zero knickknacks. Ok, I have two now, but my house is bigger now. I have three little boys, so everything would be broken anyway. :-) No knickknacks means more shelf space for the books and toys.

 

I stopped keeping things just in case. Ok, I got better at least. I did keep stuff, but again, in the garage.

 

We (the adults) straightened up everything every night. The kids cleaned up, but if we didn't straighten every night after they were in bed, the house would be out of control in no time.

 

Now I'm inspired to go get rid of stuff. With a bigger house, I have not as careful and it's getting harder to keep the house as neat as I need it to be. Time to go fix that!

[Tsuga]

I have a hard time with this mindset. 

 

I feel wasteful if I get rid of stuff that I know I might need, and yes, there actually has been a few times where I regretted getting rid of something but I feel like I want permission to stop saving things for this reason. I really don't like doing it, and our life doesn't have room for it for the most part. 

 

I would like you to think of how much you would pay me to store it so you could have a clean room.

 

If that amount is less than it would cost new or easily-found used, then give it away and consider the cash you're saving to re-purchase as storage money. You're storing it in the capitalist merchandise cloud.

 

If the amount you'd pay me to store it is MORE than it would cost to replace, then go ahead and store it. To you, storing is worth more.

 

For me, I would pay almost nothing for storing old toys, etc. If I were to replace nearly my entire home, it would cost me two days and maybe $2000? We don't have a lot of nice stuff. Certainly all the knicknacks together would not be more than $1k.

 

That said, my kids are hoarders and I have a hard time getting them to give up toys and I'm not one to purge in secret.

[Guest]

That's my question. Is a tidy house unrealistic at this stage of life (several small children, small home, home all the time because of homeschool)? My house is often trashed and just looking at it makes me feel mentally unstable. I feel like the mess literally effects my memory, my stress level, my ability to concentrate etc. I want to believe that there is some way to control the clutter and barrage of child's play aftermath... I just can't get a handle on it though and I wonder if I should give up in some sense until my kids are older.

 

I have 3 children ages 6, 5 and 1. I also have a husband, so that's 5 people living in roughly 1,000 square feet, which is significantly smaller than the average American home.

 

I think the idea of getting kids to clean up after themselves is great. For whatever reason I have not been able to achieve this with my kids.

 

I also struggle with this quandary: what is the proper balance between having a home that is well equipped with the items that facilitate living, learning, playing etc for a family who is home a lot (homeschool) vs. being prudent about preventing accumulation of too much stuff, especially living in a small space. Can someone articulate where this balance is if you feel you have it figured out somewhat???

 

Another thing is: places to put things. I feel like we don't have enough places to put things. We have a small garage and it's basically a sea of busted cardboard boxes and trash bags containing stuff we're not using right now. I would like to set up a wall of shelves and storage containers, but that project is a cost prohibitive expense right now. So if my only option is having what looks like a landfill of "stored" items, should I just get rid of it all?

 

When I hear/ read people's pep talks about being ruthless against clutter, it sounds inspiring in theory, but in reality it's more difficult and complicated. Edited to add -- the pep talks about "embracing the chaos" of having young children also sounds good until you find yourself with legitimate mental issues... so where is the balance?

 

Any thoughts?

I feel your struggle. <3 Disarray feels discombobulating to me, too.

 

First, for the "landfilled" of stored goods. Yes, a wall shelf and bins would be ideal, but there are other cheap or free possibilities that feel more stable than trash bags. Trash bags feel - obviously -like garbage. You said there are "busted boxes" - can these be reconstructed and filled, labeled with Sharpie marker, and stacked? Although do not store stuff you don't really need or love. Probably, you can reduce some of the goods in the "landfill," and then stack the boxes in a more effective way. Bags don't stack well; boxes are better for this.

 

Also, to your meta-question: yes, this is more difficult. When your family is home all day and you provide their education, you do need tools and goods to make this happen, certainly. What I would do is favor more easily stored goods where I can. So, for kids to be artistic, they can have at the pencils and watercolors all the live-long day, but we're not buying a pottery wheel and making 3-dimensional stuff, at least not at home. They can have the wooden train set, but not huge Tonka trucks. I would go for multi-use and collapsable goods; as a matter of fact, I live in a large home, but my kids' desks are rectangular folding card tables I got at Target. They are great! They can be a desk while schooling, but they also serve as buffet tables when we host a dinner, or they can be forts with a blanket draped on top, or they can be folded up and stored flat.

 

There are also habits you can nurture in yourself that help keep above the fray. Get yourself up and dressed before the kids, for example. Make your bed, straigten up the kitchen as early in the day as possible. If you wait until it's a crisis, it will feel more insurmountable, more draining, more hopeless.

[LMD]

We downsized and purged, but still my house is never tidy. It's just not a priority for me at this stage apparently...

We can usually get it to clean enough in spots for visitors quite quickly, and no one is getting sick!, so I'm fairly OK with it mostly.

[Guest]

It all depends. We used to live in a small house, If it were really messy, I could not function, I like things tidy & keep very little. Even when we got rid of stuff, if we needed things, God always provided. I don't hang on to a lot, that's just my personality. Good luck.

This is what allowed me to let go of some of my "just in case" goods. It works even if you aren't particularly religious - "The Universe provides" is equally stabilizing. It was hard for me to let go of stuff for babies and little children, because that would "prove" I would have no more children to raise. But, when I thought about it, I felt, "these goods were provided for us the first time, and we were not rich by any means. So they could be provided again if need be."

[AuNaturel]

I gather clutter that collects on counters, tabletop, desks, etc into a box and put the box to the side. If I don't miss anything in that box within a few months, I throw out or recycle what is inside. I will of course remove anything that actually has a place first or is valuable/necessary/used daily.

 

I use containers/bins/boxes to sort important things like office/school supplies, important papers/bills, and clothes that are floating between too small and too large to be useful (hand me downs). Rubbermaids can be stacked, labeled, and tossed into a back room.

 

I recycle all old shoes, clothes and linens with stains, holes, etc. that are being held onto for reasons I can only imagine. Also the ugly unused ones that are just there and never used. I donate those to Good Will or homeless shelters.

 

I was sick of picking up toys all over the house but I don't throw out toys unless they are broken (they're too expensive!). So I converted a rarely used room into a "toy room". I took ALL toys out of the bedrooms and set up shelves, bins, chests, etc in the one room. Toys on high shelves are those that my daughter plays with that my son is still too young for. If my kids bring something out to play in, say, the living room, it's only that one thing or bin that needs to be recollected. If they want to play with everything at once, they stay in the toy room. If I don't feel like cleaning up, I shut the door when company comes over. My kids bedrooms only have books, clothes, stuffed animals, and non-toy personal possessions. This makes it so much easier on my kids to keep their room clean themselves. It's also good for them mentally to have their space orderly and quiet. No TVs in bedrooms either!

 

My daughter keeps all of her school work and books in a small locker. I have a strict rule that all school work is stored there. If something goes missing, she is responsible and grounded until it's found. But I'm not a hypocrite. I make sure that I too keep my possessions in certain rooms and places.

 

We really do need more furniture for storing things and the lack of such makes the house seem more cluttered, but clear floors and tidy shelves, countertops, tabletops, etc is enough to keep my mind at peace.

 

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

[mamakelly]

I had 4 kids ages 12 and under and 2 adults in 1,000 square feet. I was homeschooling 3 of them, the other was an infant. We had times where there were toys everywhere, but my house was rafely more than a quick tidy away from being clean.

 

Honestly the key is organization and purging/cleaning out. We had a 1 car garage that had a grocery store shelving system that dh got for free on Craigslist. Every month I bought a few more sterilite bins for toys, until all toys were in bins. If they didn't fit, we got rid of enough until they did. I bought the biggest IKEA Expedit shelf I could fit in my house (Craigslist!) and we used it for school items and toys/games. Everything else went in the garage in the shelves. If their clothes didn't fit in the dressers/closet, we got rid of enough that they fit. It's a lot easier for kids to tidy their own spaces, when their stuff has a clearly marked place for it to go, and it's easy to put away.

 

Do you have a really organized friend who could help you? I have a friend who was always feeling overwhelmed with her kids rooms. I've gone in several times and helped her purge. It made a big difference for her to have help.

[pinkmint]

We used to keep toys in the kids' bedroom which doubled as playroom. Anything brought into the living room could be used there, but had to be cleaned up and put away at the end of the day. This helped keep one room reasonably free of kid clutter. On the other hand, in the kids' room forts, playmobil creations, doll tea parties etc could stay set up.

 

Pretty much everyone I know who has kids has a house with a playroom. We definitely don't, so part of it is that the way we are living is not the American norm, I guess, and I don't really have peers to look to who are working with the same restraints. So yeah, for us, the kids bedrooms need to be double as playrooms. 

 

And for the people who've mentioned Ikea shelving, I agree with that idea. Whenever tax return time comes around we are at Ikea, LOL. This time I want to try to get some serious shelving and storage implements. I like that they have cardboard boxes with lids. A little cheaper than plastic storage bins, but better than some beat up, falling apart moving boxes. 

[mamakelly]

We didn't have a playroom. My kids played in the living room, we just picked up at the end of the day.

[Tsuga]

Pretty much everyone I know who has kids has a house with a playroom. We definitely don't, so part of it is that the way we are living is not the American norm, I guess, and I don't really have peers to look to who are working with the same restraints. So yeah, for us, the kids bedrooms need to be double as playrooms. 

 

And for the people who've mentioned Ikea shelving, I agree with that idea. Whenever tax return time comes around we are at Ikea, LOL. This time I want to try to get some serious shelving and storage implements. I like that they have cardboard boxes with lids. A little cheaper than plastic storage bins, but better than some beat up, falling apart moving boxes. 

 

I didn't realize it was an American thing--my European friends definitely did not have toys in the living room. I think if you have room, playroom, if not, it stays in the bedroom. In my experience Americans are the ones who tend to have toys all over the house or toys in the living room. I can't deal with that. I mean, I can, of course. But I don't cope well.

[Guest]

No playroom, tiny home, bunch of kids. It's not impossible, no, but it does take a little effort several times throughout the day to keep things livable. We don't leave q space without cleaning it. Toys are in boxes and bins and I limit how many are dumped out. The children are old enough to help with small chores like sweeping, wiping, folding, and tidying shoes and such - it's a little thing but very needful and helpful to me. And my house is tidy, but not spotless. We keep it picked up and the kitchen cleaned, but the floors need mopping, walls need scrubbing, and the tubs are overdue for mildew control (leaky faucet causes major spatter issues).

 

You can't have it all, but I cannot function in a mess so I prioritize straightening and instill it in the kids as a way to respect our possessions and take care of our home and the people in it. Spotless isn't happening without sacrificing time for school and play, but a five minute clean up every time we are done with an activity or space is SO doable.

[Anne in CA]

When my oldest two children were 7 and an infant we lived in a 750 sqaure foot apartement  It was mostly tidy and my friends in our complex liked to have coffee at my apartment because it was clean. My 7yo's room was often a mess and we really purged her room every couple of weeks, but she was a collector of everything free that some friend was giving away. The baby slept in our room and couldn't make too much mess yet. I did make all toys stay in dd's bedroom when she wasn't playing with them and I kept all games organized in a cabinet so that they didn't get trashed. I had a galley kitchen was was where I learned to be a good cook and it wasn't hard to keep clean except that 7yo and dh LOVE to collect "free" plastic cups from events. I would purge these and they would get MAD, lol. But they didn't clean the kitchen so it was worth the fight every couple of weeks.

 

My guess is that you are going to have to purge some stuff, and you are going to have to have some tough boundaries like keeping the kitchen, the bathroom and your own bedroom clean. That is reasonable. It may make the rest of your family unhappy, but they will have to deal, because you sound like you are not someone who can just learn to ignor the mess. Some people can learn to ignor the mess, but that doesn't sound like you. You are as entitled as anyone else in your family to be happy. And you are the one doing the work around the house, so you have the biggest say in how things are run.

[pehp]

I think perfection is unattainable with children that age, for sure.

 

Like you, I actually begin to have mental issues when my house is too cluttered/chaotic. I cannot "embrace the chaos." I wish I could!!!

 

Having designated bins/spots for things is helpful and trying to tidy a room before we leave it is helpful.  Sometimes you're just going to be too exhausted to enforce it, but in general my own rule is that EVERYONE picks up our main room (living room/dining area) each evening.  The kids and I usually tidy the basement a bit after school is done (that's where our schoolroom is; although truth be told usually I am tidying it most of all).  Having designated places--mostly in the kids' closets--for toy bins and sets has been essential.  I use plastic bins (like shoebox bins from the dollar store, stackable and re-usable and label-able, and other large bins as well for bigger groups of toys like Legos and K'nex....) as my primary means of organization.  Each child has a simple bookcase in their closet and that's where the bins reside.  I don't think an expensive storage system is important--Marie Kondo talks a bit about this in her book--it's more about just finding something that works and then using it.  I find that putting on a fun, fast, upbeat song (same one every night) as our 'cleanup' song provokes a Pavlovian response in my children.  

 

I use over-the-door organizing systems (basically--those over-the door shoe hangers) to organize lots of stuff, from our keys/phone chargers/gloves/sunglasses to my makeup, and all our school supplies.  They can be acquired for a pretty low price. I label each section so everyone knows where to put stuff.  

 

In terms of cleaning, I like to be sure to have ONE room that is CLEAN each day.  I do try to tidy up most rooms every single day (though when I had a 1 year old?  no--more like the one room only approach).  In other words--always have one little area, even if it changes, that is pretty tidy and clean.  Figure out what really annoys you and what you can overlook. I get totally annoyed by books and toys everywhere, but don't really mind stacks of books on the coffee table, as long as they are reasonably neat looking....that kind of thing.  I want the buffet in my living room to ONLY hold decorative items and not functional items, but I don't care if the kitchen counter has some functional item pile-up.  

 

It's all about striking the balance.  And I honestly believe it gets easier as the children get older.  My 8 year old and 4 year old are so helpful!!  (Of course, tonight I had to remind them 50,000 times to clear the dining room table...but they did it.  Eventually.) 

[BlsdMama]

Unrealistic or not, the sheer clutter was going to drive me nuts in a small house.

 

God bless people who can embrace the season. I am not that woman. I wanted to enjoy sitting down and reading to my kids.... But that means clear horizontal surfaces and not having toys littering the entire floor.

 

I have an incredible need to do things well. I have a very hard time being okay with "good enough." And when I spend my life cleaning it takes away from parenting. I decided the stuff wasn't worth it.

 

https://truevineherbs.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/932/

[Artichoke]

Unrealistic or not, the sheer clutter was going to drive me nuts in a small house.

 

God bless people who can embrace the season. I am not that woman. I wanted to enjoy sitting down and reading to my kids.... But that means clear horizontal surfaces and not having toys littering the entire floor.

 

I have an incredible need to do things well. I have a very hard time being okay with "good enough." And when I spend my life cleaning it takes away from parenting. I decided the stuff wasn't worth it.

 

https://truevineherbs.wordpress.com/2011/03/15/932/

Thanks for linking your blog post. It was a good read.

 

To the OP --

 

Yes, I think a tidy home is possible. Spotless or magazine worthy is something most of us with young children have to put aside. We lived with four children in an 850 square foot apt for two years. It about drove all of us crazy at one point or another. The biggest thing that we did was pare down our possessions as much as possible. Everything from extra clothes to extra books to extra toys had to go. There was just simply no room to keep it and live comfortably. It was a hard process, but all of us enjoyed losing the stress along with the clutter.

 

I also had to get rid of my guilty thoughts that I was somehow depriving my family of a good life by paring down our possessions. That was tough, but having a more peaceful home gradually made it possible. Best wishes as you find a solution.

 

ETA: For out of season storage dh put another shelf in the top of all of the closets.

[Soror]

I think it is unrealistic if you expect your house to be the same as someone with less kids and/or less time at home. It will be different and there will likely be more work required. We don't have a toy room here, never have, I'm really not fond of the idea. I don't have much storage either, not a big fan of that either, I feel like it should fit or we have too much stuff. 

 

too me the basics of a relatively clean house with kids are:

1) the more stuff you have the more time it takes to take care of it, therefore if I don't want to spend all my time cleaning I have to have less stuff and/or have lower expectations or some combo

2)kids help clean up, 5+ here before they can do much but at that point I expect they can keep their own room clean with just some checking in and assistance from me here and there

3)frequent periods of picking up keep things from getting too bad

4)whatever you own necessitates time and space to to take care of and keep, our time and energy is finite, you are choosing how to spend it, do you want more time or more stuff?

5)barring safety and hygiene it is your prerogative how clean you keep your house, don't do anything out of mommy guilt; but if you are finding that things aren't good enough by your own standards then it is time to start looking for some changes

 

Also, just because my house is generally relatively neat doesn't mean that we don't have fun and create, I find it to be a bit of a false dichotomy aimed at shaming neat moms that you can't be both neat and a good mother.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

It would be unrealistic for me.  I am naturally a procrastinator.  My dh doesn't notice stuff sitting around.  While I like things tidy, the reality is that hings can easily sit for weeks before they're put away, especially if those things don't have their own specific place.  I definitely had more stuff than storage for several years, but it's getting better as kiddos grow up.

[HS Mom in NC]

In general I think it can be fairly tidy most of the time at that stage if.....

 

1. You have already ruthlessly decluttered to start with and a way to minimize items coming in in the future.

2. You have the infrastructure (shelves, bins, cabinets) for a simple organizational system that is compatible with your children's abilities. 

3.  You have  regular tidying routine.  That night be one long tidying session a day, a couple of moderate tidying sessions a day, several short tidying sessions a day or a combination of those. 

4. You have an effective behavioral approach compatible with your parenting philosophy that you apply consistently when your children are uncooperative during tidying sessions.

[KungFuPanda]

Tidy people manage tidiness no matter what. The rest of us mere mortals just ride it out until the kids' toys get fewer and smaller. My house is much easier to keep clean with teenagers than it ever was with little kids. They're neater and I'm much less tired.

[meena]

When my children were younger, I was in almost the exact same scenario--1000 sq ft home, homeschooling so in and out of the house all day. My house was never tidy and while it didn't bother me too much, it drove my husband crazy. What helped was to use vertical space whenever possible. We had shelves/cabinets that went to the ceiling in every room. We took the doors off our closet and turned it into an office nook and put our clothes into an external wardrobe and dresser. Editing to add: we also utilized underbid storage to the max. Our kids had beds from IKEA that the mattress lifted up for storage (kind of like this: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/40249881/).The style we had also had wooden legs, so we got the extra long ones to be able to utilize underbed storage.

 

Organization is key to making things fit and seem tidy. If you can't afford shelves for the whole garage or other living spaces, you may need to buy them a shelf at a time. Or use cinder blocks and wood. Also, look at garage sales or craigslist. Also keep an eye out for plastic storage containers that people no longer need--we have gotten many as curb freebies. They may not match, but they are better than garbage bags or broken cardboard. Also, check seasonal clearance. Target has plastic storage containers on clearance now that were part of their back-to-school line.

 

It might also help to define what mess is acceptable and what are a few (2 to 3) areas that you always make sure to clean up by the end of the day. In our home, I always make my bed. When we lived in our small house, our bed took up 75% of our room so making it look nice instantly made the whole room look nice. Even though in our current home the bed takes up a smaller % of space, the habit stuck. For DH, he likes to have the table and dresser surfaces clear. So if we were doing projects that we didn't finish in one day, they would get moved off the table and onto bookshelves. Mail gets filed or put away instead of laid on the table or counters (ideally, but I have to admit this is my weak spot).

[Garga]

I struggle with this issue all the time. My kids are 10 and 13 and can help clean up, but it's still a struggle every single day. After all these years I'm just so tired of saying, 'Put the jackets away,' for the 1000th time. (100 days a year wearing the jacket, times 10 years = 1000 times I've said it. At a minimum.)

 

I honestly don't know why they don't do this stuff automatically on their own. Hmm. I'm going to have to sit down and try to figure out why they wait for me or my dh to *tell* them to do the stuff that they should know how to do on their own. Heck, I still have to tell them to change their socks every day. This is the first year that they actually brush their teeth in the morning without me telling them to. Only took 12 years.

 

I also know what you mean about mentally feeling out of sorts when it's a mess in the house.

 

No answers. I'm still struggling. I dream of the day in the future when I'll clean a room, leave it, and then when I come back it will still be clean--ah, won't that be paradise. (But I'll also miss my kids like crazy on that day. What a conundrum.)

[BlsdMama]

Pretty much everyone I know who has kids has a house with a playroom. We definitely don't, so part of it is that the way we are living is not the American norm, I guess, and I don't really have peers to look to who are working with the same restraints. So yeah, for us, the kids bedrooms need to be double as playrooms. 

 

And for the people who've mentioned Ikea shelving, I agree with that idea. Whenever tax return time comes around we are at Ikea, LOL. This time I want to try to get some serious shelving and storage implements. I like that they have cardboard boxes with lids. A little cheaper than plastic storage bins, but better than some beat up, falling apart moving boxes. 

 

 

I don't handle toys on shelves very well.... Puzzles in rubbermaid containers, labeled, yes.

 

BUT BE WARY OF THIS:  People as a whole, LOVE to buy stuff to accomodate their stuff.... as though organizing it will *fix* the problem or make it go away.  Lies.

 

Sometime be very honest about what your kids play with.... Very little.

 

We lived in a very small house - about what you're talking about with eight little kids.  I slaughtered the toys.  No regrets.  We had a set of playstands that DH made, silks, and a few dolls.  We had blocks.  We had three milk crates that ALL our toys fit in and there was still plenty of room.

 

We now live in a significantly larger house and it does indeed make it easier to camoflauge toys.  But know that toys cause me stress.  My sweet MIL sent me a beautiful wooden play kitchen and a ton of plastic/metal toys and I sobbed.... The idea of maintaining a ton of little pieces was really stressful to me.  Now, we still have it (purely for sentimental reasons) and she made us oodles of felt food.  The kids rarely play with it which is a darn shame, but we'll keep the food, etc. because she MADE it and because I have that luxury now with extra space, to pack it away and keep it nice.

 

But, here's the thing.... my kids play with colored pencils & paper, nature guidebooks, blocks, legos, and outdoors.  They really don't play with other stuff even though we OWN IT.  

Christmas is crazy stressful for me to think of THREE gifts for each kid.  Really.  Truly.  Why?  One, because I don't want to maintain it.  Two, there's nothing they NEED.  Three, if we spend money on something I want there to be value there - something we'll want to keep and use.

 

Frankly, I'm certain probably half your stress is that there is clutter and there seems no VALUE to it - that it is simply clutter.

 

A dear friend of mine read a book recently and she told me most people declutter all wrong. They purge, but then they re-buy.

Rather than purge, surround yourself with things that inspire you or seem beautiful or special to you.

I don't mind MIL's food (although I despised the million bought items of the same) because they were beautiful to me - she MADE those for my girls.  I smile whenever I see the kids play with them.   They have value beyond lying on my floor!!!!!!!!!!

 

My playsilks?  Value.

I love seeing Tim's floor littered with Legos, and his CD player, and audiobooks... They represent  a kid who has struggled academically and is listening to GREAT books and working with Legos to create.  I love that clutter.

 

 

So closely evaluate what value items bring to your home.  Kill anything that has no intrinsic value.  

 

I've decluttered a TON of books.... They didn't represent Truth, Beauty, or Learning.  They just sucked space and effort to keep straight.

I've decluttered a TON of toys.  What I have left is mostly cooperative (my kiddos working together) or something beautiful or inspirational. 

 

I still hate cleaning, but when you are caring for things that you LOVE, it seems worthwhile rather than just a time and energy suck, kwim?

 

As far as holding onto things because you have them and you think "someday" you might use them.  Well, that's something for you to closely evaluate.

I don't hold onto baby toys.  I'm sorry for every time someone drops off baby toys... They are going straight to Goodwill.  Not ONE of my kids has ever liked baby toys over wooden blocks or real pots with wooden spoons, lol.

 

When I go through the seasonal switch of clothes I purge perfectly good clothes that we didn't love - they had an uncomfortable seam, or a funny looking something... If I didn't use it the first go 'round, it's unlikely to use it again. 

 

The other thing is realize very few things are WORTH purchasing new.  When I buy clothes at a garage sale and end the season with more than I anticipated and want to store, there is very little GUILT associated with passing it on.

 

Does the clutter represent items you should not have spent $$ on?

Often THAT is what makes us hold onto something.

 

Closely evaluate WHAT you bring into your home.  The urge to BUY  is shouted at us from the rooftops and soaks into our very pores in today's culture.  Fads switch constantly even among homeschooling curriculum.   Then we do.  Then the guilt paralyzes us from getting rid of it.  Then we do and we buy something else.... And the cycle continues.

 

Be VERY intentional about what you let into your home.  Set up criteria - need it vs. fulfill a need for beauty and inspiration.

 

If it doesn't strictly fit one of those (or ideally BOTH) then don't bring it through your doors!

 

(((Hugs))))

I've always marvelled at people who can live in clutter.  My aunt can and I admire her ability to be so happy with clutter around.  Often I wish that was me, but it's not.  Plus, if I don't have things put away, they inevitably get broke or damaged and then I feel guilty for not being a good steward.

 

I tell my kids often, "If you can't take care of something, maybe it's too much for you."  That isn't a reflection on their inability to care for something... It's a reflection of being overwhelmed - too many responsibilities.  We can only do so much in this world and I REFUSE to feel bad for not spending all my time taking care of pretty junk.

 

I can take care of people.  Or stuff.

 

I choose people so stuff must be minimized as much as is needful and possible.  We still have 10 times the amount of stuff we had in 2009ish, when I was *really* into minimizing.  But I have more adults living in this home and we can maintain it without the time/energy suck.  

 

This is hard.  Harder than most people realize for those of us who really struggle with having clutter around us!

[BlsdMama]

I struggle with this issue all the time. My kids are 10 and 13 and can help clean up, but it's still a struggle every single day. After all these years I'm just so tired of saying, 'Put the jackets away,' for the 1000th time. (100 days a year wearing the jacket, times 10 years = 1000 times I've said it. At a minimum.)

 

 

 

 

LOL... I just read that and mentally multiplied it by 11....  Wow.  :P :D

[lynn]

Set a time each day to do a quick tidy of "hot spots", the area that seems to just collect "stuff" throughout the day. Do it daily, make it s habit, get the kids involved. Set the timer for 3 minutes, 5 minutes or whatever works and just pick up the area that needs it most. You'll be surprised how much a few minutes of tidying up will do.

[plansrme]

BlsdMama and others have given you some great advice, but I have to say that just reading the description of your garage makes me shudder, literally.  So yeah, I agree with BlsdMama--I'll bet a significant portion of your stress will evaporate when you throw out the stuff in your garage.  I mean throw it AWAY, not repackage it in those giant blue Rubbermaid totes and Sharpie a note on the side, "Baby clothes, 3-6 mos."  I realize not everyone (maybe not even very many) are as stressed by clutter, but if you are, nothing is as freeing as getting rid of it.  That's my stress-buster of choice:  when I am stressed about things I can't control, I clean out a drawer or a closet or the garage, depending on how much time I have, and I feel better instantly.  Even if I can't clean, I just go through with a garbage bag and throw stuff away.  Ahhhhhh.  And when there's not much stuff, it's a lot easier to keep things relatively tidy.  Relatively, of course--no one is expecting perfection at this stage of life, but the state of your house shouldn't cause you such angst.

[J-rap]

My #5 was born when #1 was just 6 years old.  I didn't have a clean house for years.  The bedrooms were too small to play in, and we only had one little living room attached to dining room area where we did absolutely everything.  All day long it was like an obstacle course just to get from one end of the room to another.

 

We had several big wicker baskets (like laundry baskets) that we kept in the living room.  Every night before bed, the kids would just throw all their toys and things into the wicker baskets.  That made the floor walkable.  Then I'd get out the vacuum every night and spend 5 minutes vacuuming the living room/dining room.  (Did I mention we also had a dog and two cats?)

 

So before I went to bed every night, our main rooms were kind of clean, and my husband and I usually had an hour or two to sit in them like that after the kids went to bed.  :)

 

In the kids' teeny bedrooms, we had flat plastic bins that slid under their beds, and nets that hung from the ceiling above their beds.  Again, that made picking up in there very easy.  Just toss things in the bins or in the net.  I also had hampers in every room.  The kids had no excuse to not throw dirty clothes into their hampers.

 

It was only surface cleaning of course, but it felt better.

 

Oh, we also had garage sales every year.  I let the kids get all the money for their toys and junk that they sold.

[katilac]

 

 I would like to set up a wall of shelves and storage containers, but that project is a cost prohibitive expense right now.  

 

You don't need a wall of shelves to have neatly organized storage containers - just buy lidded bins and stack them on top of each other. Rows of neatly labelled bins are much more efficient and satisfying than a sea of cardboard boxes and trash bags.

 

Buy one bin every week or two to spread out the expense. Of course it's much more work moving bins around than having them on shelves, but hey, it's good exercise! 

 

 

Tidy people manage tidiness no matter what. The rest of us mere mortals just ride it out until the kids' toys get fewer and smaller. My house is much easier to keep clean with teenagers than it ever was with little kids. They're neater and I'm much less tired.

 

I hate to discourage the OP, but my house was much easier to keep clean with little kids than it is now with teenagers, lol. It's a combination of being so much busier, plus having so many more people in and out of the house, I think. Silly teens and their social lives. 

 

OP, you do have a lot of people in a small space. There are certain things you can do to organize, but when push comes to shove, things will never be neat if you have far more stuff than space. You definitely need to do regular weeding out. 

 

For the kids, start giving them consumables and experiences for holidays instead of physical gifts. My kids always loved getting 'tickets' to the ice cream parlor, zoo, and so forth. Bonus: we would have done some of that stuff anyway, money saver! 

 

Bin up some of the toys, making a very good list of what is where. If they ask for a certain toy, you can easily get it, but it's not cluttering up space every day. 

[BarbecueMom]

As I've said before on this subject, having a larger house (4br with a finished basement here) or more empty space (very minimalist, our living room has only a piano, lamp, couch, and library basket) does not help.  It sometimes makes it worse.

 

One of the things that stuck out when I watched Hoarders was how the kids would dig through piles of junk to find the exact thing they were looking for.

 

My kids?  Empty all the drawers, the cabinets, the game closet, the library books... then find the exact thing they are looking for.  95% of the time it's not a toy.  My 2yo plays with his 4 superhero figures, the older ones play Lego.  Other than that, sports equipment, and a basket of Magformers, we have no other toys out right now.  They will fill the space with something, anything, and if the space is larger, that's just a bigger area to mess up.

 

I wonder if this is some sort of developmental thing, to be able to identify a single object in visual clutter.  From an evolutionary perspective, I can see how that would be a handy skill, like being able to find edible plants in a forest and avoid poisonous ones, or hunting an animal that's blended in with trees.  A "destroyed room" to them IS an organized state, because they can see everything and it ends up equally spaced, not condensed in smaller places and out of sight.  And it's completely at odds with my need for order and not wanting to see everything.