Could you be friends with someone who thinks you're doing something terrible?

[I talk to the trees]

I don't think I could ever call a person who so clearly disapproved of my lifestyle a friend. I have many people in my life that I know fairly well, and interact happily with on a regular basis, but I consider those people acquaintances, not friends. It's not that I dislike being around these people. I just reserve the word "friendship" for truly close relationships, and someone who thinks so little of something that is of such great importance to me is someone I could never really be close to. I'd always feel guarded, or as though I was being judged.

 

But I am pretty much an introvert. Honestly, most of the time, I'd prefer to hang out with my family and my dogs than attend any sort of social event. So that's my perspective. YMMV.

[Parker Martin]

I agree, but what if the friend changes the rules? I have this going on right now with one of my friends. I don't care at all that she is Buddhist, but she has been absolutely attacking my religion all over the internet. I have no problem passing the bean dip, but it seems different if the person is in your face all the time telling you how horrible your beliefs are. Shouldn't the toleration go both ways if you want to stay friends?

 

I would not see attacking it on the Internet as being in your face. If she has a blog, you don't have to visit it. Tolerance doesn't require general silence or lack of opinion.

 

Is a friend really a friend if you can't look at her Facebook posts and say, "Those are some of the most ignorant/stupid/ill-considered things I have ever read; I love her anyway!"?

 

Now if by attacking it on the Internet, you mean that she is attacking your religion on your blog or your Facebook page, that's different and obnoxious.

[Mommyfaithe]

I just read her blog post, and I agree she is a Bad Homeschooler:D, but probably a very good friend.....and mother. I LIKE that she put away her own feelings and did what was best for her dd.....and NOW, she is done and does not want to go there anymore. I think it is fair. I like her....I don't agree with her assessment that no one should homeschool, obviously....i mean, it just may be the best thing for my child as well...even if I disagree with it from a social or philosophical standard.

 

Yes, I could be her friend....I could allow her to have her feelings and ideals, as long as she was ok with mine and we could laugh at our idiosyncrasies without feeling put out or in some kind of judgement zone.

 

I wouldn't take her feelings on this subject personally....these are her feelings about her experience and her own conclusion.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

Sorry you were hurt.

Faithe

[KungFuPanda]

Unless you are the type of person whose entire identity is tied up in homeschooling, then I think you can agree to disagree. (I know, easy to say but HARD to do.) You clearly care about this person or her opinion wouldn't matter. If you enjoy her company and are the type of homeschooler who can (gasp) talk about other things, I think you can ride out the sting and maintain a great friendship. I think she posted what she honestly felt, and that's no reflects on you.

 

Clearly, this woman homeschooled under duress and for a VERY short time. She feels like an expert, but is far from it. She seems like those sad women in the fifties who were career women at heart but were forced to become housewives once the children arrived. I totally see WHY she feels the way she does, I just disagree with her projecting that feeling upon the rest of society. "I did this thing for a few minutes, and it helped my family, but you are all bad and wrong if you do it." She had a limited experience that she was never really open to, so she's oversimplified the whole thing.

 

I'd say to take a deep breath, and be sure to bring bean dip along the next time you see her. :D

[catz]

I think a lot of people with opinion-type blogs aren't writing them to make personal attacks, but general observations. There is always the thought behind them of, "oh, but obviously I didn't mean *you*!" It's thoughtless, but it's not something *I* would probably end a good friendship over, unless she was actively, directly telling me that I was doing a bad thing. I'm sorry you feel slighted. :grouphug:

 

:iagree: They sounded like random musings to me, and not necessarily a full coherent thought. Even though she says homeschooling is "bad" for society, she doesn't back that up with the why. In some ways, I'm sick of reading homeschooling books too. I feel like we have a "system" in place for the moment, and I'm just going with it. I'm not all fascinated or in love with homeschool. It's a good fit for our family for now.

 

I think I could still probably be friends with this person. I might approach her about this particular post. It sounded like a few disjointed thoughts about someone burned out and just done. I wouldn't take it personally. She clearly thinks it's an ok solution for who the standard classroom wouldn't be a good fit. We came to homeschooling after 2 years of PS so I can kind of understand the thought, even though I do not agree.

[kalanamak]

it's not something *I* would probably end a good friendship over, unless she was actively, directly telling me that I was doing a bad thing.

 

:iagree:

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

While her post would annoy me, and I would be slightly hurt by her comment about the book, I would not end the friendship over it. She is entitled to her opinions, after all. I have many friends with whom I don't agree on major issues. It's okay. We just don't talk about those things in any serious way. :grouphug:

[melmichigan]

I didn't want to assume anything and take the the quoted post out of context, so I sat down and read a good portion of the archives. Based on the totality of the blog I would have problems maintaining a close friendship with her. I am very sorry you were hurt. She constantly felt the need to justify her decision to herself, and it obviously went against very strongly held values that she has based her life around, including her profession, how does she justify your choice in her mind? It would bother me.

Edited August 24, 2012 by melmichigan

[8circles]

I'm impressed with all the posters who would be able to let this go. I don't believe I could.

 

I would feel very uncomfortable knowing that she thought what I was doing was bad for society. I am much more than a homeschooler but it is a large portion of who I am. I would kindly say something to her about it, that I found her opinion hurtful. I don't think I could remain as close as you sound no matter what her response was.

[Anne in CA]

I totally agree with Katilac, that this is her reasoning in many instances. She probably does not have the mental flexibility to be open to the idea that other people's children are as special as hers, and shouldn't be forced to school in a way that doesn't make sense for them. I know many people like this.

 

The mom who used to host Home School Mom's Nite Out for our church was very vocal about how she didn't agree with home schooling. She was only home schooling because her older dd said she didn't want to go to high school, she made her dd go, and her dd retaliated by getting pregnant. So when her second dd said she didn't want to go to high school she decided to home school. She was very fun at Mom's Nite Out gatherings, she just wasn't along for our ride, and she hadn't drank our Kool Aide, lol. I enjoyed spending time with her and if we had had more in common I would have been friends with her.

[Mom22ns]

I'm impressed with all the posters who would be able to let this go. I don't believe I could.

 

I would feel very uncomfortable knowing that she thought what I was doing was bad for society. I am much more than a homeschooler but it is a large portion of who I am. I would kindly say something to her about it, that I found her opinion hurtful. I don't think I could remain as close as you sound no matter what her response was.

 

:iagree:

I would try to talk to her about it to see if this was a generalization on her part and she never imagined it applying to me:glare:. However, even if that is the case, I would have trouble getting past the post.

 

One of my best friends right now is a Wiccan (I'm conservative Christian) who disagrees with me on nearly every topic we discuss - except homeschooling. We laugh and respect each other's opinions and it isn't a problem at all. It is the idea that she really doesn't respect your choice. It isn't just wrong for her family, it is wrong for society. Ugh.

[marbel]

I would try to talk to her about it to see if this was a generalization on her part and she never imagined it applying to me:glare:. However, even if that is the case, I would have trouble getting past the post.

 

One of my best friends right now is a Wiccan (I'm conservative Christian) who disagrees with me on nearly every topic we discuss - except homeschooling. We laugh and respect each other's opinions and it isn't a problem at all. It is the idea that she really doesn't respect your choice. It isn't just wrong for her family, it is wrong for society. Ugh.

 

I haven't read all the replies but this one stood out to me.

 

Probably this has been said but I think I would talk to the friend about the blog post to clear the air. Sometimes people/writers forget that there are real people behind the anecdotes in their blog posts. Sometimes people forget that their subjects may read the blog!

 

I'd try to keep it light, maybe say "hey, I read your blog post about homeschooling and I hope I haven't been annoying you with book recommendations and talking about it too much." See what she says.

 

If you two are truly good friends, you should be able to get over this easily. Then, don't talk about homeschooling to her anymore. And never, ever complain!

 

I have a friend who is an atheist; I am a conservative Christian with a husband fresh out of seminary and looking for a pastoral call. My son is in Boy Scouts; she thinks it is an evil organization. But we have a lot we can talk about aside from our differences, and we can eve talk about our differences. As the pp above stated, it's because we respect each other. If you and your friend maintain mutual respect, all should be well.

 

Hope you can work it out!

[GinaPagnato]

I think she was conflicted about starting homeschooling, and conflicted about stopping, and likely conflicted the whole way through. I disagree completely with her conclusions, but they sound pretty personal to her situation, and I don't think you should let it trouble you.

[Stacia]

I would feel very uncomfortable knowing that she thought what I was doing was bad for society.

 

Momoflaw, I'm not picking on you by quoting you, but you're on the last page (of posts currently) so your post was an easy one for me to quote (so I hope you don't mind). ;) I see many also expressing this same feeling.

 

To the OP, hypothetically speaking.... I think smoking is bad for society, esp. when done in public. (I have a huge aversion to cigarette smoke, blah, blah, blah.) Yet, I do have some friends that are smokers. Relatives too. Does it diminish my friendship/relationship w/ them? No. I mean, I don't run have a smoke break w/ them or stand in a cloud of smoke, but I enjoy every other aspect of the relationship, kwim? I see this situation as similar. Different strokes for different folks. I am really confused as to why many would be so upset. I mean, this is a solid, fun, long-lasting, great friendship. And it's worth ditching just because she holds a polar opposite view on something? :confused:

[dangermom]

Meanwhile, I've been thinking all afternoon about whether I want to take back my original answer. It's that whole 'bad for society' thing that gets me. I mean on the one hand I agree with Stacia that I am friends with smokers...but OTOH most of the smokers I know wish they could quit and don't hold their habit quite so dearly to their hearts as many homeschoolers do with homeschooling.

 

It really is kind of a lot to take that a good friend truly feels like your choices for your children are bad for them and for all of society. I think I would want to ignore it as a kind of weird foible on her part, but I might not be able to as much as I would want.

 

(It is a weird foible though. Putting my kid in public school is not going to make a huge difference to the other kids and improve society. And there are many ways to contribute to society other than simply attending a public school.)

[WishboneDawn]

nm

Edited August 25, 2012 by WishboneDawn

[SonshineLearner]

I think it's odd that she's UU... (is she?) and so off about someone else's choice. Just a thought about her being (not) open minded... Perhaps she's just so into "the village" or perhaps she's just trying to justify her own choices.

I have my own misgivings about homeschooling... But it's just that I'm tired. :( I don't think that one thing works for all people. There are times that it works.. and then sometimes it doesn't... I think she's pretty darn strong about her disliking homeschooling.

I think... that before I totally dismissed her, I might ask her about her blog.

Sometimes people are just in a bad mood!! Or put their foot in their mouth... (and sometimes just stuff their leg down, too!!) I had a rather awkward conversation today. When I left I just realized that I am not always the smartest person when it comes to not running off at the mouth :( And I totally appreciate the person for a HUGE favor they're doing for us... I just... spoke without thinking!!! :( Perhaps this person just wrote... but was not meaning exactly what she blogged... more like rambling?

:( HUGS... I hate it when something like this happens!! :(

[J-rap]

I don't think I could, not because we disagreed in the end, but because I think her logic is weird and she makes generalizations based on the assumption that she knows everything about it. This would really bug me. To be a close friend, I would need to respect her thinking.

[Little Nyssa]

It wouldnt bother me that we disagree about something-- it would bother me that I found out about it on her blog and not from her. I would want to talk about it in person in some way.

[Jenny in Florida]

I think it's odd that she's UU... (is she?) and so off about someone else's choice. Just a thought about her being (not) open minded... Perhaps she's just so into "the village" or perhaps she's just trying to justify her own choices.

 

I'm also a UU.

 

I've spoken here before about my own experiences with UUs and homeschooling. I encountered a ton of misconceptions and resistance when I (along with two other moms in the congregation) wanted to start a homeschool co-op on our church's campus. I was told outright by a member of our board of trustees that her impression was that only right wing conservatives homeschool. I pointed out that I homeschool and didn't fit that profile, and she was stymied.

 

I also had some very bad experiences on the UU homeschoolers e-group, where I found some of the least tolerant and open-minded people I've ever "met." These boards are a dream of inclusion and undestanding by comparison.

 

Rivka -- I think all you can do is talk to her. If she's a close, good friend and the relationship is worth saving, I think you have to tell her how this made you feel. I know others have said she probably didn't mean it as an attack on you, and that may be true. It doesn't make a lot of sense that she would hang out with you one day and then publicly post something negative directed at you two days later.

 

However, for me, her post crossed the line when she made the blanket statement that she believes homeschooling is bad for society. And I can't help looking at those three "likes" at the bottom of her post and wondering how many people will cite this post as "evidence" next time they are debating homeschooling: "I was reading this blog the other day by a woman who homeschools her kid, and even SHE says homeschooling is bad." It would be one thing if she said she struggles with a nagging feeling . . . But to simply say, "I believe this is bad" is insensitive at best.

 

And maybe it really is just that. She was posting her own thoughts about her own personal homeschooling journey and simply didn't put enough disclaimers on it. I hope that's the case. But, if I were you, I'd want to have an honest conversation about this.

 

I hope you can work it out with her.

 

Edit: So, I went back and read some of the other comments, and I had an epiphany: I'm that friend. Not about homeschooling, but certainly about other things. For example, when asked, I won't hesitate to admit that I believe eating animals is wrong. Not misguided, not a matter of opinion, not a different viewpoint, but wrong. But the majority of my friends are omnivores, and I love them and really don't go around holding a grudge about it. I like to think I wouldn't write and post an essay equivalent to the one on your friend's blog essentially laying down the gauntlet that way. But I also don't go into shrinking violet mode and refuse to express any thoughts on the subject.

 

I still think a heart-to-heart is a good plan. But I am more inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt on this one.

Edited August 25, 2012 by Jenny in Florida

[Stacia]

It's that whole 'bad for society' thing that gets me.

 

I guess I don't see the big deal about her huge support for public schools. Children of today will be the ones in charge of our country when we're hitting the elderly range. Most people (by choice or not) send their children to public school in this country; the majority of children in the US attend public school. It behooves ALL of us that ALL kids receive a great education, regardless of whether they are schooled in the public school system, private schools, or homeschools. The current state of the public school system does say to me that we, as a country, need to do better with our schools. There are various ways to do that (of course, open to wide & varying debate, which I'm not interested in starting here :tongue_smilie:). I guess I see public school as a reality, the majority reality, and one that needs support and improvement, regardless of whether I'm using that system myself. As a citizen, I care about the quality & future of education here. Period.

 

That's the overall feel I get from the blog post. I mean, even if the friend says hsing is not good, she herself is doing it. So, perhaps she's had a bad day or week or month & is venting, wishing the ps system could actually serve her child in the right way. Maybe she knows she's not cut out to be a hser, but is one by necessity rather than choice; hence her rant. I see her rant as aimed toward herself more than anyone else. Either way, I'd take the post with a grain of salt.

 

I still really fail to see why it's a big deal or why it would be insulting. Shrug.

[Holly IN]

Didn't read any previous post....

 

The OP first post: that would end friendship with me after I explain to her why I am ending it.

 

I have many PS friends and they do not attack me for homeschooling FB or blog-sphere.

 

Holly

[goldberry]

Okay, I went and read it, plus a few other posts. I probably wouldn't end a long friendship over it, but I'd probably have to avoid her for a while, because I have no poker face :D

 

Eh, she is just one of those annoying people who always say they will never do thus and so, and then when they do it, they carefully explain that it's due to a VERY special set of circumstances, and the fact that their kid is SO AMAZING.

 

With these people, it can never be: oh, hey, I learned that there is more than one way to do things, and that differing choices can be equally valid, how cool is that? No, it is still: yes, we did things differently, but that's 'cos we're so special, and everyone else really needs to keep up the status quo. I don't think it's related to home schooling in particular; she would be that way about anything.

 

Presumably, she has other qualities that make up for this.

 

:iagree:That is spot on!

[BlsdMama]

I could be friends with someone that I disagreed with. If the two of us had differing opinions, we could still agree to live and let live. I have a dear friend who is pro-choice. That is hard for me.

 

I could not be friends with someone who is condemning. That would be hard for me.

 

Moreover, if I *could* be good friends with someone who feels I am ruining society, I have to think it would have to be over some tiny aspect of my life. Homeschooling is all encompassing. That colors my marriage, my kids, myself, how I spend my spare time...

 

Too difficult I think, but you will have to decide. Friendships require a huge amount of emotional, physical, and mental give & take. You have to decide if it's a worthwhile investment for you.

[Galatea]

Okay, I went and read it, plus a few other posts. I probably wouldn't end a long friendship over it, but I'd probably have to avoid her for a while, because I have no poker face :D

 

Eh, she is just one of those annoying people who always say they will never do thus and so, and then when they do it, they carefully explain that it's due to a VERY special set of circumstances, and the fact that their kid is SO AMAZING.

 

With these people, it can never be: oh, hey, I learned that there is more than one way to do things, and that differing choices can be equally valid, how cool is that? No, it is still: yes, we did things differently, but that's 'cos we're so special, and everyone else really needs to keep up the status quo. I don't think it's related to home schooling in particular; she would be that way about anything.

 

Presumably, she has other qualities that make up for this.

 

:iagree: I read about 5 or 6 posts on her blog to get a better picture of her thoughts, and I thought the EXACT SAME THING as katilac -- she thinks she is a "special snowflake", no one else in the world is as smart as her kids, has the same needs as her kids. No one else is smart enough to teach children better than "real teachers" and no one else is careful enough to make good decisions for themselves.

 

Personally, I couldn't be friends with someone like that. Not because of the homeschooling opinion, but because I couldn't stand the smugness.

[Sahamamama]

I haven't read any other posts on this thread. Instead, I read her post, and it sounds to me like she's working through how she views something at this time. Opinions can change, but even if she continues to view homeschooling in this way, it's just how she sees it. The two of you have stuff in common, right? Can you focus on that?

 

I've been friends with people who have been so excited when they first find out we homeschool -- "Oh, that's GREAT! We want to homeschool, too!" -- but then they end up enrolling Junior in school. Shrug. It used to bother me a bit, because it felt good to find another "kindred spirit," only to find they'd chosen another path for their child's education. Now, I tell myself that this one choice is only one facet of who we are as people.

 

I suppose I think her blog is her blog, her own place to express her opinions. FWIW, I really don't understand the whole blog phenomenon. I did notice that in her post she refers to you as "a good friend." So that is how she sees you. :)

[I.Dup.]

No, I could never be friends of any sort with someone who thinks I'm doing something terrible. BTDT. No thanks.

[catz]

I think it's odd that she's UU... (is she?) and so off about someone else's choice. Just a thought about her being (not) open minded...

 

I do have to admit, as a UU, I find myself annoyed with UU's that do not practice what they preach in terms of tolerance. We've been lucky in that I know of 4 other UU families that homeschool. Our church has been tolerant. But I think where we live, educational tolerance is just required. Some people spend 20K on kindergarten, people drive 30+ miles for charters, etc etc etc. We're in the city, so within blocks of us there are probably 20 schools of all kinds represented and 3 homeschooling families. If you weren't tolerant of others educational choices, you probably wouldn't have too many people to talk to.

 

Okay, I went and read it, plus a few other posts. I probably wouldn't end a long friendship over it, but I'd probably have to avoid her for a while, because I have no poker face :D

 

Eh, she is just one of those annoying people who always say they will never do thus and so, and then when they do it, they carefully explain that it's due to a VERY special set of circumstances, and the fact that their kid is SO AMAZING.

 

With these people, it can never be: oh, hey, I learned that there is more than one way to do things, and that differing choices can be equally valid, how cool is that? No, it is still: yes, we did things differently, but that's 'cos we're so special, and everyone else really needs to keep up the status quo. I don't think it's related to home schooling in particular; she would be that way about anything.

 

Presumably, she has other qualities that make up for this.

 

I read a few more posts too and I did get a little of this vibe. I'd be curious if Rivka gets any vibe like that from this blogger otherwise? Some parents really have crazy blind spots regarding their "golden children" and believe choices made for that child are just beyond anything anyone else can comprehend.

 

I'd be interested to know how the blogger would respond to how she feels homeschooling is "damaging to society" and why people shouldn't do it. Because that is not at all clear from what I read. And I find it interesting she doesn't allow comments on her blog either?

[Sahamamama]

I think she was conflicted about starting homeschooling, and conflicted about stopping, and likely conflicted the whole way through. I disagree completely with her conclusions, but they sound pretty personal to her situation, and I don't think you should let it trouble you.

 

 

:iagree:Yes, in fact her side-bar ID states she is conflicted: "An Urban Public School Warrior Mom has an ongoing internal battle with her value system after deciding to homeschool her brilliant teen daughter with issues."

 

That sounds quite conflicted to me, so there ya go. :grouphug: BTW, have you read some of the posts in the archives? Here are some post titles:

 

 

 

• Teaching Profession

• Teaching: Any Idiot Can Do It, Part 2

• Teaching: The Not-So-Long-Awaited Part 3

• Why I Hate Homeschooling #1: Gender Issues

• Why I Hate Homeschooling #2: Trashing Public Schools

• Why I Hate Homeschooling #3: Segregation

• Why I Hate Homeschooling #4: Crazy People

• Conflict

• Homeschooling Makes Her Vomit

 

Really, I don't understand why the "In Conclusion" post upsets you, after all this. :confused:

[AdventureMoms]

Honestly, the specific post you linked doesn't bother me at all. She is a strong supporter of public schools (as am I), thinks that homeschooling harms public schools (I disagree, but see where the arguement is coming from), and feels like she was forced to homeschool her daughter. The whole blog seems to be a series of rants with her trying to reconcile her political feelings (that HSing is bad for PS) with her personal decision to HS her kid.

 

Reading some more of the blog, yes, I find it a bit annoying. She has some issues, clearly. She reminds me of a friend I have though, in some ways. This friend definitely has a blind spot wrt her special snowflake children, and frequently seems to rant about stuff that completely contradicts her actions, and comes across as exceedingly judgemental. And yet, the longer I hang around her, the more I'm realizing that she's sweet in many ways, and a good friend, and we do have good discussions. She took my DD at 4am with no notice when DW went into labor early. She has a habit of helping people out. I could totally see her writing a post like that on different subjects. Thankfully I have a couple of places I can go and rant when she's being dumber than a brick, and most of the time I just kinda roll my eyes and move onto other subjects.

[Incognito]

Yeah, I looked at a few of her other posts too and I suppose that it felt more personal because she mentioned the book you suggested to her, but she's really just at the end of a tired journey. I think because her daughter just finished and her daughter only completed one course over the year and it was not a good year for them she is just sooo glad that it is over and she doesn't want to hear or think about what she just went through (with her daughter).

 

I don't think the post was about you at all.

[annandatje]

Sure I would continue my friendship w/ no problems. Everyone is entitled to her opinion. I read hers as a lot of internal struggle over her own situation. Having a special needs teen is a lot on top of homeschooling, especially if you aren't super-committed to homeschooling in the first place.

 

About the homeschooling books reference. Eh. I AM a homeschooler (& have been for years) & I don't really care about reading hsing books either (even in the beginning). I can think of a billion other books I'd rather read too. Hsing books have never been at the top of my list of 'want to read'.

 

I wouldn't take it as a personal knock. If you're both straight-forward & strong in your beliefs, she probably assumed you wouldn't take issue w/ it, kwim?

 

There are a few things I feel strongly about. However, based on the area of the country where I live, along w/ the general mores/attitudes around me, many of our friends (esp. the hsing ones) violate the things I feel strongly about. Does it lessen our friendship? No. I know everyone has her own individual beliefs, ways to live life, etc....

 

I wouldn't even feel hurt by the piece. Go enjoy your friend. :001_smile:

 

:iagree: Although I did not read blog, my take on what you mentioned would be that she is airing her own personal frustrations. Homeschooling a significantly special needs student is a whole 'nother ball of wax even if the decision to homeschool had nothing to do with lack of access to traditional schools equipped to deal with those needs. Long ago I learned to stop giving much emotional energy to people who were ideologically opposed to homeschooling.

Edited August 25, 2012 by annandatje

[Farrar]

I'm kind of surprised that the consensus seems to be that it's not a big deal. I think it would get to me because it wasn't just public schools are a better choice or I'm conflicted because I wasn't able to follow my own beliefs, but rather people who homeschool shouldn't because they're hurting society. Reading it on the internet, not knowing her, it's extremely easy for me to go, eh, whatever. Even if that was a casual acquaintance, I'd probably be able to go, eh, whatever, you're a neighbor/church friend/person I chat with in the supermarket so let's talk about something else. But if I was her good friend, I'd have trouble not taking it personally. If someone took any piece of my identity - my hobbies, my religious beliefs, the way I raise my kids, etc. - and said it was hurting society, I think I'd have trouble being close to that person.

[8circles]

I'm kind of surprised that the consensus seems to be that it's not a big deal. I think it would get to me because it wasn't just public schools are a better choice or I'm conflicted because I wasn't able to follow my own beliefs, but rather people who homeschool shouldn't because they're hurting society. Reading it on the internet, not knowing her, it's extremely easy for me to go, eh, whatever. Even if that was a casual acquaintance, I'd probably be able to go, eh, whatever, you're a neighbor/church friend/person I chat with in the supermarket so let's talk about something else. But if I was her good friend, I'd have trouble not taking it personally. If someone took any piece of my identity - my hobbies, my religious beliefs, the way I raise my kids, etc. - and said it was hurting society, I think I'd have trouble being close to that person.

 

I agree. I have loads of differences of opinions that friendship/love can overcome. This is more than that IMO. I don't feel her opinion can coexist with mutual respect. I don't know why someone who thought something that I dedicated such a large portion of my time to - because I thought it was so important - was hurting society would even want to be my friend.

[kalanamak]

Different strokes for different folks. I am really confused as to why many would be so upset. I mean, this is a solid, fun, long-lasting, great friendship. And it's worth ditching just because she holds a polar opposite view on something? :confused:

 

Pardon, I'm quoting from 40 year old memory here (I haven't read Nin since I was 15), but Anais Nin had a line about the three stages in a relationship.

First is defining what you will be to each other, second, the dropping of pretense, and third, letting go of the parts of the other person that have nothing to do with you.

[DianeW88]

I think people who homeschool as a last resort can feel very far removed from other homeschoolers.

 

I had a friend like this once who told me, "I'm not like you, I didn't choose this, I would send her [her special needs child] to a school if I could." I think she felt very alone because the other homeschooling families she knew were doing it by choice. Her other child went to school.

 

Yet, these reluctant homeschoolers are sometimes put in a position of having to defend homeschooling. I'm sure it gets frustrating sometimes.

 

I can see why it bothered you, Rivka, but I'm not sure she thinks you are doing anything wrong. I can see why it would feel that way, though.

 

:iagree: There are two VERY different camps of homeschoolers. Those who feel they have no other choice but to homeschool...and they literally detest every second of it, and those who feel homeschooling is the best possible choice for their child's education, and they wouldn't send their kids to a brick and mortar school on a bet.

 

I think it's all about her and not really about you at all. Of course, if it's seriously bothering you, you should speak with her about it....and I think you'll have to since your link will lead her right to this thread.

 

And, for what it's worth, I have friends who are heavily invested in the public school system, who hate homeschooling as a general idea...yet, when they see what I'm doing and look at my curriculum and have gotten to know my children...they've made me the exception to their rule. :lol: Maybe your friend feels the same way about you. Or maybe she secretly thinks you're ruining your children. You'll have to be the one to find out.

 

Plus the fact that she really has NO IDEA what she's talking about regarding homeschooling and is not even anywhere close to an expert on it, and that her statement about homeschooling being bad for society is probably about the least intelligent thing I've ever heard anyone say on the matter...I kind of feel sorry for her. To make such ridiculous pronouncements on something you have so little experience with is what would make me look somewhere else for a friend....not the fact that she didn't like homeschooling. At least she acknowledges that she was "bad" at it. :D

Edited August 25, 2012 by DianeW88

[readwithem]

However, when we brought home our dd, a comment about how she thought I was 'over all that' .

 

:glare:

[WishboneDawn]

I think I could be friends with her, especially if she's a good friend otherwise. Isn't that sort of the point? It's in being a friend that she shows her worth as a friend, not in some blog post where she blows off steam and examines her feelings.

 

If it bothered me I would just not read her blog.

[Susan in KY]

I read her blog post. It doesn't appear to be directed at you. She doesn't say why she thinks it's bad for society. She just seems to be saying that the chapter is closed for her now. I really don't think it has anything to do with you. If you like her, have at it. If you can't get past her fundamental disagreement with homeschooling, lessen your time with her. I probably would have a hard time being that close with someone who had a fundamental difference of opinion with me, but if I liked the person so well, I would overlook the differences. I do it with my extended family all the time, and their ideas are much harsher than your friend's.

[2cents]

I just read her post and to be honest, she sounds self-absorbed and lazy at the same time. Can't help it, it was my impression.

 

It sounds like she opted for hsing because nothing else worked but as we all know, hsing is WORK. You just don't decide to homeschool and then sit around and blog about how you are hopeless at it.

 

'Badhomeschooler' blogs about how she would begin the 'perfect' school but she "isn't that kind of person." Well, she made a choice to create the perfect school when she took the child out of ps to homeschool. It was at that time her responsibility to get her act together and make the best effort possible. The tone of the blog does not communicate this to me.

 

Another point, she knew you would be reading the blog. She knows you are a serious homeschooler. The blog, IMO, seems VERY passive-aggressive. I think she is annoyed that there are people that can manage to homeschool successfully and blogging this is extremely disrespectful to you (the op) and belittles what constitutes a huge part of you and your family's life. It is a cowardly way to vent her misdirected anger. She should be exposing the dangers of being a slacker homeschooler. JMHO.

 

I could not be around her after reading that. It is clear she doesn't want to discuss it so that would be it. Contact - over and out!

Edited August 25, 2012 by 2cents

[kokotg]

The old pastor at our church was talking about atheists once and said something like, "a lot of times atheists will talk to me about not believing in God and then they'll describe the God they don't believe in. And I think, 'I don't believe in that God, either.'" I have that experience a lot as a liberal Christian with mostly atheist/agnostic friends.

 

She kind of reminds me of that. I don't like that kind of homeschooling, either. I think perhaps her self-proclaimed disinterest in getting to know the homeschooling community is showing here.

 

I must admit, I'm a little more susceptible to the "you're hurting society" anti-homeschooling argument than to most. But, then, it just doesn't much sense when I break it down. For one thing, I think at least one of my kids might be more trouble than he's worth to our poor local public school ;). My husband's a public school teacher. I could just as easily argue that any smart, well-educated, competent person who chooses another career instead of teaching is doing the public schools a grave disservice. But I don't, because that would be silly. Teaching is one profession people can choose. Public school is one way to educate children that people can choose.

[Abigail4476]

I would preserve the friendship. It's perfectly okay for her to think that homeschooling is bad based on her own bad experiences. Some people have difficulty imagining that anyone else's experience could be different from their own.

 

Also, she didn't attack Rivka in the blog. She attacked homeschooling, but it was mostly based on her own experience.

 

I post on several forums and I post strong opinions about politics, education and religion. Some of those opinions are in sharp contrast to the views my friends and family hold and I hope they don't hold it against me. I vehemently disapprove of some of my friends' choices to put their children in public school when they have the time and talent to be superb homeschoolers. I feel that it is wasting their children's potential to languish away in ps. If they aren't going to hs, I don't see why they can't work and put them in a good private school. Alas, those kids aren't my children--but my friends are still my friends, and they have heard most of my opinions. Admittedly, the filtered, kinder version, but they do know that I disapprove. They're still friends with me.... :001_smile:

 

As a tangent, I agree with this statement found on the blog: "I found myself pleased that our homeschooling endeavor wasn’t regulated (in part because Rhino was 16 and eligible to drop out if she wanted to), yet I found myself wishing there were lot more regulation of other homeschoolers."

 

This has been one of the things I don't like about homeschooling: in some states (particularly mine) there seems to be a little too much freedom to do as you wish with your children's minds, e.g., nothing much at all. I would be happy if homeschoolers were required to take the same standardized tests every year that publicly schooled children have to take and be held to the same grade standards. Yes, many homeschoolers would pass with flying colors, but the ones who don't, well.... Maybe spending the morning listening to Pandora while doodling and the afternoon reading comic books doesn't actually qualify as "arts" and "literature" after all.

 

I vote for keeping the friendship. She didn't say anything really bad about Rivka other than the fact that she didn't want to read a book that was suggested. She has a wry sense of humor which is always a plus at the coffee shop and she seems to value people that SHE disagrees with (e.g., Rivka) which speaks positively of her character, IMO.

[Tammyla]

I would be hurt, but try to work through it if the friendship was important to me.:grouphug:

Edited August 25, 2012 by Tammyla

[Soror]

I have no problem being friends with people who have different beliefs and do things differently. I do however have a problem with being friends with people who are uber judgmental, mean and condescending. I would have a hard time being her friend.

 

eta: A similar situation happened with 2 of my friends. Friend A is a sah, hs'ing mom. Friend B was as well but fell on hard times and went back to work and put the kids back in school. Friend A made comments to me, my friend and on her blog about how everyone should sah and people that don't just don't know how to be frugal and Christians should hs because it is what God said etc. Friend B wasn't bothered by the comments (well not enough to end the friendship although she doesn't read her blog anymore) but those comments (along with many other things) really affected my opinion of A. I have little respect for people who think that it is some sort of Christian virtue to think that they are better than everyone else and not extend any grace to others. I would rather not spend my time with such people as I don't find it to be uplifting personally, spiritually or emotionally. I don't want to stand around and talk about why I'm better than all of these other people because I do xyz (homebirth, bf, hs, sah, etc). I have enough of my own sins and struggles without focuses on all the perceived sins of others (especially irt all of these legalistic ideas- be they legalistic Christianity, environmentalism etc).

 

 

eta2: I read a few of her posts not just the first one posted and my opinions are based upon that, not just the first one.

Edited August 25, 2012 by soror

[Rivka]

Thank you, everyone, for your input. I'm not going to respond to everything, but I've read every comment at least three times and have found the overall discussion very helpful in clarifying my feelings.

 

I found myself really wanting to defend her as I read some of these responses. So that's helpful information about the state of the friendship right there. :)

 

It's not about you. It's about her struggle with the fact that she's very pro-public schools but is homeschooling her daughter, and reconciling those two things. It's a journey, a process. She's letting you see her inner turmoil. I would grant her "safe space" to work these feelings out. Again, it's not about you at all. It's about her belief in, and work in support of, the public schools, and the challenges to those values that the homeschooling world will create. Allow her that struggle, as a friend.

 

I think people who homeschool as a last resort can feel very far removed from other homeschoolers.

 

I had a friend like this once who told me, "I'm not like you, I didn't choose this, I would send her [her special needs child] to a school if I could." I think she felt very alone because the other homeschooling families she knew were doing it by choice. Her other child went to school.

 

Yet, these reluctant homeschoolers are sometimes put in a position of having to defend homeschooling. I'm sure it gets frustrating sometimes.

 

Clearly, this woman homeschooled under duress and for a VERY short time. She feels like an expert, but is far from it. She seems like those sad women in the fifties who were career women at heart but were forced to become housewives once the children arrived. I totally see WHY she feels the way she does, I just disagree with her projecting that feeling upon the rest of society. "I did this thing for a few minutes, and it helped my family, but you are all bad and wrong if you do it." She had a limited experience that she was never really open to, so she's oversimplified the whole thing.

 

I think each of these are accurate and sensitive assessments of her feelings and situation, particularly Kung Fu Panda's. I did understand from the start that this is how she felt about homeschooling, and I never tried to approach it with her in a "Yay, we're homeschoolers together, awesome!" kind of way. I totally understood that for her it was the best of a set of bad options, something she felt pushed into a corner and forced to choose, rather than a positive decision the way it was for me.

 

I could NEVER be friends with someone like that. EVER. And she sounds like an arrogant hypocritical witch.

 

I would consider her words on the blog to be her TRUE feelings and all of her niceness to be a facade that she puts up when you are together. I would expect that she is judging you and speaking nasty about you behind your back (even if it's just to her husband), regardless of how nice she may seem.

 

Oh my gosh. No, this isn't her. Well, maybe the arrogant part. But I can't picture her running me down behind my back.

 

I think it's odd that she's UU... (is she?) and so off about someone else's choice.

 

Heh. I think that if you were UU this would not be as surprising to you.

 

I just read her post and to be honest, she sounds self-absorbed and lazy at the same time. Can't help it, it was my impression.

 

It sounds like she opted for hsing because nothing else worked but as we all know, hsing is WORK. You just don't decide to homeschool and then sit around and blog about how you are hopeless at it.

 

'Badhomeschooler' blogs about how she would begin the 'perfect' school but she "isn't that kind of person." Well, she made a choice to create the perfect school when she took the child out of ps to homeschool. It was at that time her responsibility to get her act together and make the best effort possible.

 

No, she really is the opposite of lazy. She's got three teens with special needs or issues, works full time, and is responsible for her mother who has dementia. On top of that, she's a pillar of our church and she works with animal rescue. I think that a lot of what drives her anger is her awareness that intense "second shift" burdens (parenting, special needs issues, elderly parents, etc.) disproportionately fall on women, and if you care about your career (or need to have one), the combined pressure is incredibly intense.

 

Reading some more of the blog, yes, I find it a bit annoying. She has some issues, clearly. She reminds me of a friend I have though, in some ways. This friend definitely has a blind spot wrt her special snowflake children, and frequently seems to rant about stuff that completely contradicts her actions, and comes across as exceedingly judgemental. And yet, the longer I hang around her, the more I'm realizing that she's sweet in many ways, and a good friend, and we do have good discussions. She took my DD at 4am with no notice when DW went into labor early. She has a habit of helping people out. I could totally see her writing a post like that on different subjects. Thankfully I have a couple of places I can go and rant when she's being dumber than a brick, and most of the time I just kinda roll my eyes and move onto other subjects.

 

Okay, this made me smile. Yes, this is pretty much how it is. I talked to my husband about her post and he just shrugged and said, "Well, we knew this was how she was when we made friends with her." She knows what everyone should do and she isn't shy about saying so. But her heart is huge.

[Rivka]

Rivka, what if you could frame it this way: Ask yourself, "If Friend wanted to let me know that homeschooling is not her thing and she doesn't want to think about it, talk about it, read it, or acknowledge its existence even though she is doing it, for crying out loud, how might she attempt to let me (and the whole universe) know that this is no longer a topic that she will give any real estate in her head?"

 

If the answer is that she might blog about it, fairly bluntly but not extremely personally toward me or another homeschooling friend, then maybe that's what's going on.

 

If I loved her and wanted to keep her I would continue the mutually-satisfying aspects of our relationship but never mention homeschooling to her again unless she asks. Not hide it or downplay it because obviously it is your life right now, but not bring it up as a philosophical concept about which to converse.

 

I don't bring it up as a philosophical topic. I often argue with her in my head after I read one of her blog posts, and a few times I've written something in response that I didn't direct at her (she doesn't read my blog), like this: http://tinderbox.homeschooljournal.net/2010/08/15/does-homeschooling-violate-liberal-values/ But I guess in some sense I have known all along that she didn't want to have a dialogue about her opinions. Having that dialogue in my head, or with other people I thought were more open to considering my point of view, made me feel less affected by her negative opinions. I do feel like the values & social impact questions she raised were important.

 

That brings me to the book I recommended, which a few people have mentioned. I think I need to defend myself for a moment here by saying that, although I am probably a jerk in a lot of ways, I am not the kind of jerk who would give a "how to homeschool" book recommendation to a former teacher with a 16-year-old when I was just starting out with a kindergartener.

 

The book I recommended was Marshall Stevens' Kingdom of Children, which is a sociological study of homeschooling from someone outside the movement. I thought he addressed a lot of the societal questions which were of interest to her, and from a completely non-booster position. I also thought that his exploration of two different strains within homeschooling (fundamentalist Christians vs. hippie children's rights advocates) added a lot of nuance to the discussion about liberal values in homeschooling. But seriously, I probably recommended the book in passing two years ago. I never asked her if she read it or anything.

 

Crud. The more I think about this, the more I think that all along I have had in my mind the thought, "We have shared values and really different opinions about this, so yay for vigorous debate and the exchange of passionate ideas." Even if we weren't having the vigorous debate and exchange directly, that's how I thought about it. But I realize now that she was never interested in exchanging ideas on this. Her blog only engaged with arguments from homeschoolers who were easy to dismiss as being wrongheaded. The tone of weary, dismissive disgust in her final post hurt more than all of the vigorous arguments she posted because it did make me realize, forcefully, that she never ever wanted my opinion.

[dangermom]

But I realize now that she was never interested in exchanging ideas on this. Her blog only engaged with arguments from homeschoolers who were easy to dismiss as being wrongheaded. The tone of weary, dismissive disgust in her final post hurt more than all of the vigorous arguments she posted because it did make me realize, forcefully, that she never ever wanted my opinion.

 

Ouch. Yeah, that hurts. :grouphug:

 

But it's her issue, not yours, I guess.

 

 

 

(I've read Kingdom of Children and thought it was some good analysis, so I knew what the book was.)

 

Edit: I like your blog post, and it echoes some of the thoughts I've had about this question, which I do think is a valid question. Tiffany's reply is what I have come up with too.

 

More edit! I dunno. I want to say that friendships should continue despite disagreements. But she really is so--as you say--dismissive and disgusted. It's hard to swallow. Maybe someday when she's not quite so close to it, you could gently bring up your hurt about her disgust for how you have chosen to live.

Edited August 25, 2012 by dangermom

[Soror]

Crud. The more I think about this, the more I think that all along I have had in my mind the thought, "We have shared values and really different opinions about this, so yay for vigorous debate and the exchange of passionate ideas." Even if we weren't having the vigorous debate and exchange directly, that's how I thought about it. But I realize now that she was never interested in exchanging ideas on this. Her blog only engaged with arguments from homeschoolers who were easy to dismiss as being wrongheaded. The tone of weary, dismissive disgust in her final post hurt more than all of the vigorous arguments she posted because it did make me realize, forcefully, that she never ever wanted my opinion.

 

That is the thought I got out of her posts as well and that is why I would have issue with it. Of course blog posts are only a small snapshot though. I hope you figure it out in a way that is respectful of yourself, your family and needs.

[Rivka]

I'm kind of surprised that the consensus seems to be that it's not a big deal. I think it would get to me because it wasn't just public schools are a better choice or I'm conflicted because I wasn't able to follow my own beliefs, but rather people who homeschool shouldn't because they're hurting society. [...] But if I was her good friend, I'd have trouble not taking it personally. If someone took any piece of my identity - my hobbies, my religious beliefs, the way I raise my kids, etc. - and said it was hurting society, I think I'd have trouble being close to that person.

 

I think it would be hard for me. Not because she disapproves of homeschooling exactly, but the conclusion that people shouldn't do it and that it's bad for society. The bad for society gives me more pause than I'd like to admit.

 

I have friends I disagree with regarding parenting stances, but I'm not close to people who I think are doing something horrible or who think I am.

 

I'm positive your friend is a wonderful person, but I would internalize her stance and feel judged if she were my friend. It would be hard to not feel scrutinized even if that's not her intent at all.

 

I must admit, I'm a little more susceptible to the "you're hurting society" anti-homeschooling argument than to most.

 

I think there are many, many homeschoolers who would just roll their eyes and dismiss the "society" argument the way that I, personally, would roll my eyes and dismiss an argument that "what you're doing doesn't please God." Homeschoolers on both the left and the right end of the political spectrum seem to trend very libertarian. I think that if you have a clear conviction that your duty is to your own family and that other people's children are their parents' business, or if you believe that society-as-a-whole's needs never trump individual preferences, the "bad for society" argument holds no weight.

 

I (obviously) disagree with my friend about whether homeschooling hurts disadvantaged kids in public schools and undermines liberal society, but I don't think it's an invalid question to ask or an unimportant consideration. We share a commitment to the ideal of a society based in mutual responsibility to each other, which is why her judgment hurts so much.

[melmichigan]

The tone of weary, dismissive disgust in her final post hurt more than all of the vigorous arguments she posted because it did make me realize, forcefully, that she never ever wanted my opinion.

 

:iagree: There is no discussion. You are doing something, elitist, socially irresponsible, bad for women, that she hates. To me the question remains, is there respect? Only you could answer that, because it doesn't come across in her blog posts.

Edited August 25, 2012 by melmichigan
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