Tell me this is not true…

[SKL]

Yeah, it was legal in my state for a long time after the public schools stopped paddling.

I went to a parochial school.  They did paddle, but I knew that the local public schools didn't, even back then (1970s).

Periodically there would be a national news story of a principal who beat a kid too hard and caused injuries.  I guess that's what caused our state to eventually pass a law against it.

I do believe there are folks in more conservative states that believe their kids' schools should be allowed to paddle, as a deterrent to kids who can control their behavior.  Like, if you think the teacher is allowed to hit you, you're less likely to sass her.  Many of us were paddled in school, and weren't really "hurt."

For me, it was more of a humiliation tactic.  It definitely didn't make me respect those teachers more.  It made me craftier and gave me a bit of credibility in the elementary school underworld.

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, EKS said:

Or how about punishing the whole class when one kid does something wrong?

My private elementary school in Georgia in 1980 would given silent lunch AND loss of recess for the entire school of 120 kids if the cafeteria got too loud. This happened at least weekly. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by lewelma

[lewelma]

2 hours ago, regentrude said:

And don't get me started on windowless classrooms which would not be permitted in many other countries.

In Virginia in 1983, I went to a middle school with 2000 students that was a one story square building with five halls one direction and 5 halls the other direction with 4 classrooms of 30 students each at each intersection. There were no windows in the entire school even on the edge classrooms. The only windows were in the office and library.

We were not allowed outside for lunch or recess. The cafeteria held 1000 students in the basement, and we were allowed to wander half the halls when we finished lunch while the other students learned. Then we switched so the other 1000 students could eat and wander halls. We went outside only for PE once per day. 

This school building is still being used. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by lewelma

[HomeAgain]

Just now, lewelma said:

In Virginia in 1983, I went to a school with 2000 students that was a one story square building with five halls one direction and 5 halls the other direction with 4 classrooms at each intersection. There were no windows in the entire school even on the edge classrooms. The only windows were in the office and library. We were not allowed outside for lunch or recess. The cafeteria held 1000 students in the basement, and we were allowed to wander half the halls while the other students learned. Then we switched. We went outside only for PE once per day. 

This school building is still being used. 

That sounds absolutely miserable!

My schools seem amazing by comparison.  My elementary school was designed by a famous architect.  It was created to be in a circle, with a large green space in the middle to meet in.  Every classroom had an entrance to the middle green and an entrance to the large playground on the outside of the circle, along with a personal class garden.

My jr. high mimicked it, with a more standard rectangle/digital-8 layout so there were two smaller green spaces in the middle and each classroom still having access to the inner courtyards and outer grounds with two separate doors.

My high school was more standard, laid out like a college campus with blocks and several courtyards.  Every school I went to had large banks of windows along one side of a classroom.

I never considered a lack of green space to be an intentional feature until my own kids were school age.  It seems horrible for the mind and body, to not have access to the outside every day.  Even if it's just through a window, it's better than nothing.

 

 

[Catwoman]

10 hours ago, KungFuPanda said:

Holy crap! I thought this was outlawed everywhere 20-30 years ago!

So did I! I was shocked to read this!!!

[Kassia]

23 minutes ago, lewelma said:

My private elementary school in Georgia in 1980 would given silent lunch AND loss of recess for the entire school of 120 kids if the cafeteria got too loud. This happened at least weekly. 

Didn't parents complain?  DH and I were furious when a Yacker Trakker was used in the elementary school cafeteria.  If it went to red (which it always did because it's not meant for a cafeteria filled with kids) they would have to have silent lunch and no recess.  We tried getting other parents to go to administration with us but they didn't seem to care (?!).  We fought so hard that we got the Yacker Tracker removed.  Talk about lack of humanity - a Yacker Tracker!!  

 

https://yackertracker.com/

Edited August 25, 2022 by Kassia

[Ellie]

6 hours ago, EKS said:

Or how about punishing the whole class when one kid does something wrong?

We kind of do that same thing as adults when we shun people for not complying with whatever thing we deem important.

[saraha]

Dh was in junior high early 80s here. The principal would paddle a kid and then they would get to sign the paddle 🙄 Talk about mixed messages 

[Heartstrings]

5 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Didn't parents complain?  DH and I were furious when a Yacker Trakker was used in the elementary school cafeteria.  If it went to red (which it always did because it's not meant for a cafeteria filled with kids) they would have to have silent lunch and no recess.  We tried getting other parents to go to administration with us but they didn't seem to care (?!).  We fought so hard that we got the Yacker Tracker removed.  Talk about lack of humanity - a Yacker Tracker!!  

 

https://yackertracker.com/

So many parents were well trained by the system not to complain about the system.  The system is  *good* and we must support the system.  If the system says the kids need to be quiet at lunch or lose recess, that must be right.  

[lewelma]

11 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Didn't parents complain?  DH and I were furious when a Yacker Trakker was used in the elementary school cafeteria.  If it went to red (which it always did because it's not meant for a cafeteria filled with kids) they would have to have silent lunch and no recess.  We tried getting other parents to go to administration with us but they didn't seem to care (?!).  We fought so hard that we got the Yacker Tracker removed.  Talk about lack of humanity - a Yacker Tracker!!  

 

https://yackertracker.com/

I think that back then, they paid for their kids to be educated and this was standard practice. Basically, withholding recess was seen as more modern and humane than paddling which this school did not do. 

[lewelma]

21 minutes ago, HomeAgain said:

That sounds absolutely miserable!

Even in highschool in the 1980s in Virginia, we were not allowed outside for lunch or recess. We did have windows, but we were not allowed to leave the building, ever. And at this school, PE was in the gym, not outside. 

Edited August 25, 2022 by lewelma

[Kassia]

12 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

So many parents were well trained by the system not to complain about the system.  The system is  *good* and we must support the system.  If the system says the kids need to be quiet at lunch or lose recess, that must be right.  

yes, you're right.  We were angry about summer homework and homework on breaks too but no one else seemed to care.  I think our district was very relieved when we decided to homeschool - lol.  

[EKS]

23 minutes ago, Ellie said:

We kind of do that same thing as adults when we shun people for not complying with whatever thing we deem important.

I guess I don't understand this.

[EKS]

1 hour ago, Heartstrings said:

So many parents were well trained by the system not to complain about the system.

This is true, but I think it goes beyond that--they don't see it as good or bad.  It's just the way things are.

Edited August 25, 2022 by EKS

[Ausmumof3]

6 hours ago, hshibley said:

Once when my dd was in kindergarten she lost recess because she was not keeping her eyes on her book during free reading time. She wasn’t bothering anyone or talk etc. At that time she couldn’t read at all. It was over the top. I got a note sent home in addition to the punishment. This was the only time she was disciplined that year. This is pretty typical. A lot of the expectations for young students are inappropriate and the discipline is disproportionate. 

This is what my tutor kids have - “eyes on the book” reading. Most of them can barely read and aren’t likely to be getting much out of this. When I was a kid parents (mostly mums tbf) came in to listen to readers and it actually helped the kids learn to read instead of making books feel like a punishment. I don’t know if there’s just not enough volunteers now or if schools don’t want the hassle of the paperwork but these kids would make so much more progress if they were reading with a competent reader on a daily basis.

[bookbard]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

When I was a kid parents (mostly mums tbf) came in to listen to readers and it actually helped the kids learn to read instead of making books feel like a punishment. I don’t know if there’s just not enough volunteers now or if schools don’t want the hassle of the paperwork but these kids would make so much more progress if they were reading with a competent reader on a daily basis.

This was happening until Covid - parent volunteers weren't allowed in after that - not sure about now. I went in twice a week when my son was in K and ran one of the maths groups and worked on reading with individual struggling kids - they knew I was a teacher so took advantage of it! 

It seems that corporal punishment is still technically legal in QLD private schools, looking at the law, but I don't know if it happens (and it's not recorded, so neither does anyone else). Laws banning corporal punishment began from 1989 up to 2015, depending on the state, mostly to ensure private schools were included. It's illegal federally in early childhood settings. 

[Ausmumof3]

6 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

Honest question- what forms of discipline are appropriate for schools to use?  Kids are really out of control, teachers hands are tied. I think the root cause is poor parenting, but schools can't fix what happens at home.  

Teachers are leaving, and a big reason cited is bad behavior with no consequences from administration.   Teachers are at fault for kids refusing to do work- and cannot give zeros or fail students- even absent ones!  I planned to be a teacher and I'm so glad now that I didn't finish up and stayed home instead to raise my own kids, but our country is failing these kids!  It weighs on me.  

 

 

I do think this is a real problem, and while more breaks may help with issues where kids have indoor recess etc most of the kids here only have 1hr 40 sessions then 40 minutes of outdoor time, plus there’s inbuilt movement in class time and PE and plenty of green space, basketball courts, ovals. I often see the kids outside doing various lessons and some of the teachers send the whole class to run around the school in between lessons. There’s still behavioural issues that aren’t related to lack of movement. They mostly relate to mainstreaming kids with learning issues and not providing enough support for them. I also will probably get slammed for saying this but ime kids that spent significant time in daycare early seem to have more behavioural problems (I’m not talking a couple of days I’m talking five day weeks, long hours). 
 

I have two thoughts on this - one it needs to start at home. Smacking or no smacking, the kids whose parents enforce boundaries are usually ok to work with. Two - the staff to student ratio is too low - majorly too low. 30 or higher kids to 1 teacher is not realistic for a class. 1 in 5 kids in Aus have a diagnosed learning disability that needs various accommodations.  There should be at least two people in any class of 30 kids especially if there’s autism or ADHD to be managed. Until society recognises that child-raising is actually a job that can’t be run on an efficiency model like a factory because you’re dealing with actual human beings with emotions and needs, schools are going to have problems.

[bookbard]

4 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Until society recognises that child-raising is actually a job that can’t be run on an efficiency model like a factory because you’re dealing with actual human beings with emotions and needs, schools are going to have problems.

Absolutely. I'll also add that many in the govt/society see school as a service to the economy (keeping children minded so the adults can work and buy and keep the money flowing) and not as a service to the children who are humans in their own right, not just 'potential workers'. I hear a lot of people who want school to be run for long hours, like long daycare 6.30am to 6.30pm, to make it easier for workers. I hear this from parents as well as govt (our premier, for example). And even if that happened, I can tell you parents would still be expected to do a lot (and blamed for everything). 

I worked with one child who was absolutely lovely, highly gifted, and very, very difficult in the classroom due to undiagnosed adhd. I can't imagine that hitting him would make him better; equally, if I'd had him 5 days a week I would've gone insane. 

 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

 

I wonder if Montessori type schools have the same problems with discipline as are being discussed here.

I'm a Montessori teacher, Montessori teacher trainer and Montessori parent.

Admittedly, my experiences are narrow, but no, discipline problems are not like what's being discussed here.

The big differences (in my opinion):

- self-paced learning

- no competition or comparison or grading

- multi-age groups

- inside-outside model

- individual or small-group lessons

- self-directed learning from early childhood 

- independence and autonomy

- with a teacher and cohort for three years, so the class is a community

- contract-based learning for older students (aged 6 - 15ish)

 

In my experience, the behaviour issues in Montessori schools are often when children move into the school at an older age. These children are used to the traditional school style and the perceived freedom can be hard to manage. The children who have been managing their own learning and time since age 3 truly rarely seem to have behaviour issues. 

But like I said earlier, my experiences are narrow, and I can't speak for what's happening in other countries.

[Heartstrings]

54 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

 I don’t know if there’s just not enough volunteers now or if schools don’t want the hassle of the paperwork but these kids would make so much more progress if they were reading with a competent reader on a daily basis.

Schools are still using Covid to keep parents out.  I 100% think they just don’t want parents to see what’s going on.  

[Ausmumof3]

8 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

Schools are still using Covid to keep parents out.  I 100% think they just don’t want parents to see what’s going on.  

This is somewhat my feeling as schools were already leaning this way here even prior to covid. I think it’s also been a problem with working with children checks etc (not that I think they’re a bad thing it’s just so much more paperwork).

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

I wonder if Montessori type schools have the same problems with discipline as are being discussed here.

DS was in a Montessori school for 1st-3rd, then repeated 3rd in PS. In the Montessori school, not only was he able to choose what he wanted to work on, and when and where he worked  on it (including on the floor), if his teacher saw he was getting too distracted or starting to get antsy, she would ask him to come sit with her or be her "special helper" or something — the goal was to help him learn how to settle and focus, not punish him for being a wiggly, distractible little boy. And he never ever lost recess. In fact, if the class as a whole was starting to get squirrelly, she'd take everyone outside to run around for a few minutes.

His experience in PS was the polar opposite — he was constantly punished for wiggling around too much, falling off his chair, dropping his pencil too often, "not paying attention," etc. The same three little boys were forced to stay in at recess all the time. It was stupid and cruel and totally pointless, and he went from being a happy, motivated kid who loved learning to a really angry, shut down kid who hated school and thought he was "bad" and "stupid." At that point, pulling him out to homeschool was really the only option.

[Kassia]

22 minutes ago, Corraleno said:

. The same three little boys were forced to stay in at recess all the time. It was stupid and cruel and totally pointless, and he went from being a happy, motivated kid who loved learning to a really angry, shut down kid who hated school and thought he was "bad" and "stupid." At that point, pulling him out to homeschool was really the only option.

That is so sad.

[Katy]

I was paddled twice in kindergarten (Florida) for talking during nap time. I hadn’t napped in two years before I started K. I think my mom might have threatened to yank me because after that I was given busywork, reading, or sent to the gifted program during nap time. 

I don’t remember exactly when but sometime in the 90’s some administrator changed the local rule and tried to get rid of paddling. High school parents revolted and demanded they bring it back. Mostly because if a kid got some sort of suspension instead they were also then banned from sports participation. But if they got spanked they could then go directly to practice. 

[kbutton]

8 hours ago, bluemongoose said:

I absolutely agree that more recess needs to happen, however 15-20 min every hour would be a nightmare. It wouldn't even work in my homeschool. The disruptions and then trying to get them back into a lesson would take forever. Lots of kids have a hard time gaining focus ground and once they have that focus you really don't want to disrupt it. Other kids have a really hard time with transitions. That would make so many transitions! I think it makes a lot more sense to have things like wobble seats, standing desks, and fidgets to include more movement during lessons while also increasing the number of recesses. Just not as often as 15-20 min every hour. I think a kid should be able to handle an hour and a half to two hours or so and then get a 20-30 min break. Of course, the teacher can do stretch and wiggle breaks in the classroom too as needed.

One of mine couldn't handle so many transitions either. He really needed to just suck it up and get his stuff done. He had a lot of sensory issues, and OT helped tremendously. He still doesn't like a ton of breaks or messing around when he has something to do. It drives him nuts.

None of that means that he didn't get breaks; it just means that we didn't take long breaks. He really valued being done and then having unregulated free time afterwards. 

I didn't read the Atlantic article because I didn't want to give up a free article for that. I googled and found another one about Finland: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/why-are-finlands-schools-successful-49859555/

The article has a LOT of stuff in it that has nothing to do with more breaks, lol! There is a lot about their system that is different. Some of what they do reminds me of what my SIL who taught for many years in a Title I school (I think that's the right terminology) in the inner city did with her colleagues, and they also had good results. It wasn't easy in their context, but they really worked as a team, etc. A lot of teachers I know are not collaborative. They want to be queen of their own kingdom behind their door. That's not always bad, but it's not always good either. Anyway, collaboration is one of many, many differences in Finland, and it's one of the things that made my SIL's school effective.

My kid who struggled with breaks did pretty well in his Montessori preschool because of the autonomy with good limits/boundaries (having to ask to share activities, keeping them in your own workspace, etc.). He went only twice per week for half days. We got a few mixed signals--the first year, I was concerned about xyz, and they were all, "he's fine." The next year, they became suddenly alarmed about those same things as if I'd never mentioned them, lol! But it was a good experience. They did have to sit on him a bit for being a Montessori school, but once they realized that, they did fine. He's 2e, and if we knew then what we knew now, it would've been a bit smoother for all, but it was a wonderful experience overall. He also had vision issues that weren't obvious for a few more years (convergence issues). 

[Melissa in Australia]

When using the word paddle,  does it mean hitting with a flat paddle like stick? 

When I was in primary school kids got caned.  With a bamboo cane across their hands or if they were very bad they were sent to the principal office where they got the cuts,  which was a leather strip across the hands,  causing small cuts.  It went out of use when I was in grade 5. 

[Heartstrings]

27 minutes ago, Melissa in Australia said:

When using the word paddle,  does it mean hitting with a flat paddle like stick? 

When I was in primary school kids got caned.  With a bamboo cane across their hands or if they were very bad they were sent to the principal office where they got the cuts,  which was a leather strip across the hands,  causing small cuts.  It went out of use when I was in grade 5. 

Paddling is usually 3 smacks to the bottom by an administrator with a flat piece of wood, many of which have holes cut out for maximum air flow while swinging.  Usually the student has to brace themselves on a desk or chair.   
 

this is a link to one.  https://www.amazon.com/Wooden-Airflow-Venesun-Durable-Beautiful/dp/B0828PTGRP/ref=asc_df_B0828PTGRP/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=416957758022&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9614396035207116863&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9025685&hvtargid=pla-872512817996&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=96811480551&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=416957758022&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9614396035207116863&hvqmt=&hvdev=m&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9025685&hvtargid=pla-872512817996

[Ting Tang]

There’s not a chance in hell my children would ever attend a school where this is allowed, even with an opt-out option. This is gross. 

[Heartstrings]

51 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

There’s not a chance in hell my children would ever attend a school where this is allowed, even with an opt-out option. This is gross. 

It’s always gross but it’s especially creepy in middle and high school where administrators are usually male.  A grown man spanking a girl with developing breasts and curves is just skeevy and would not be acceptable in literally any other scenario.  

[Clarita]

14 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

Honest question- what forms of discipline are appropriate for schools to use?  Kids are really out of control, teachers hands are tied. I think the root cause is poor parenting, but schools can't fix what happens at home.  

Teachers are leaving, and a big reason cited is bad behavior with no consequences from administration.   Teachers are at fault for kids refusing to do work- and cannot give zeros or fail students- even absent ones!  I planned to be a teacher and I'm so glad now that I didn't finish up and stayed home instead to raise my own kids, but our country is failing these kids!  It weighs on me. 

I'm OK with failing students or giving zeros and not being able to participate in fun afterschool activities or field trips. Paddling or spanking is not an appropriate form of punishment. That much more so from someone who is not even a parent. I would be creeped out and not OK with a female or male spanking my daughter or son. In a country where we currently do not think spanking/caning/paddling an adult for crimes is appropriate why would we think that is appropriate for children.

[Ausmumof3]

45 minutes ago, Heartstrings said:

It’s always gross but it’s especially creepy in middle and high school where administrators are usually male.  A grown man spanking a girl with developing breasts and curves is just skeevy and would not be acceptable in literally any other scenario.  

Not acceptable in this scenario either I’d suggest. If people really think the girls somehow need this maybe they could at least have a female doing it, but even then it’s weird. 

[Sneezyone]

14 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

Before we started homeschooling my son was paddled at school even though I had specifically opted out of that.  I didn’t find out for a week because the principal knew I had opted out but decided he knew better.  He specifically told me the behavior problems would go away if I just let him paddle my son more regularly. 

I’d have sued the pants off that district.

[katilac]

14 hours ago, BusyMom5 said:

Honest question- what forms of discipline are appropriate for schools to use?  Kids are really out of control, teachers hands are tied. I think the root cause is poor parenting, but schools can't fix what happens at home.  

Teachers are leaving, and a big reason cited is bad behavior with no consequences from administration.   Teachers are at fault for kids refusing to do work- and cannot give zeros or fail students- even absent ones!  I planned to be a teacher and I'm so glad now that I didn't finish up and stayed home instead to raise my own kids, but our country is failing these kids!  It weighs on me.  

 Do I think a lack of consequences is a huge problem in schools? Absolutely, but the answer to no consequences in the classroom is to think about, and carefully implement, non-violent and non-creepy consequences that make sense. Not being able to give a zero is its own problem, and is not going to be solved by being able to give a smack instead. 

No zeroes and no failing are prime examples of the law of unintended consequences. If you 'grade' principals, schools, and districts on the number of students who fail and the number of students who graduate, as numbers in isolation, then the system is going to be changed so that fewer students fail and more students graduate. 

Moreover, the group of kids causing real trouble and disruption in any given school overlaps greatly with the group of kids who are already getting the crap beaten out of them at home. Getting licks in the principal's office will not scare them, but it will certainly cause them to laugh derisively when they get into a fight and are told that violence is not the answer. 

14 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

The biggest thing that would solve discipline issues is MORE RECESS.   

Yes. 

11 hours ago, bluemongoose said:

 It is really frustrating if they just get up and walk away when you are mid-sentence. 

That's rude in any context, though, so it's a valid thing to correct.  

11 hours ago, SKL said:

Well first of all, it often isn't "out of control" children who are getting recess taken away.  When my kids were in 1st, they lost recess (and one was even held back from lunch) due to not finishing written assignments.  The lunch incident was to force her to finish the required 4 sentences in her "journal."  There was no allegation of disruptive behavior.

Yes, this is extremely common. Like, the kid who has lost focus is not going to magically regain it because you force them to sit at the desk longer. 

5 hours ago, Katy said:

Mostly because if a kid got some sort of suspension instead they were also then banned from sports participation. But if they got spanked they could then go directly to practice. 

That is just gross. "Y'know, if I sign this suspension, there's no championship game for you. But, if you let me smack you on the ass . . . " 

Eww. Way to teach kids to accept grooming 

[scholastica]

12 hours ago, Katy said:

I was paddled twice in kindergarten (Florida) for talking during nap time. I hadn’t napped in two years before I started K. I think my mom might have threatened to yank me because after that I was given busywork, reading, or sent to the gifted program during nap time. 

I don’t remember exactly when but sometime in the 90’s some administrator changed the local rule and tried to get rid of paddling. High school parents revolted and demanded they bring it back. Mostly because if a kid got some sort of suspension instead they were also then banned from sports participation. But if they got spanked they could then go directly to practice. 

When dd was in K, she intentionally got math problems wrong once she realized that the teacher would pull kids from nap time to go over missed problems. She hadn’t napped in 2 1/2 years and was so bored she did it so she could have something to do. The teacher realized after a few times that she actually knew the answers and it was intentional. Dd explained why when I asked her about it. Dh and I were impressed with her ingenuity.

[regentrude]

4 minutes ago, scholastica said:

When dd was in K, she intentionally got math problems wrong once she realized that the teacher would pull kids from nap time to go over missed problems.

your DD is clever.
And this pedagogy makes so much sense, because a tired kid will surely be able to concentrate better on math? Argh.

[Starr]

I may have mentioned before the student in my seventh grade class who kept talking and the teacher got mad and he wrapped masking tape around his head and mouth a couple of times. I was horrified. We never heard of any repercussions. 

[Tenaj]

12 minutes ago, regentrude said:

your DD is clever.
And this pedagogy makes so much sense, because a tired kid will surely be able to concentrate better on math? Argh.

I feel sympathy with the teacher though because that was probably the only time she had to concentrate all of her efforts on the kids who needed a little extra help in math.  The teacher's are often between a rock and a hard place on that kind of stuff.

[Tenaj]

3 minutes ago, Starr said:

I may have mentioned before the student in my seventh grade class who kept talking and the teacher got mad and he wrapped masking tape around his head and mouth a couple of times. I was horrified. We never heard of any repercussions. 

This may not have been appropriate on the teacher's part but it's not like it was duct tape.  Masking tape barely sticks to skin or doesn't stick very long unless it was some kind of super strength masking tape.   I was probably one of the quietest kids in my class but one day my best friend and I were cutting up in sixth grade math.  The teacher drew a small circle on the chalkboard  for each of us and made us stand  for the rest of class with our noses in the circles.  I was mortified.  It would probably be deemed a horrible punishment now but I'll tell you, that was the last time I ever got in trouble in that class and it didn't injure anything but my pride.

[MercyA]

This thread makes me appreciate my local high school's lunch policy. They are one of the few schools in our state to still have open lunch. The kids can go home, go outside, walk to the local grocery store's deli, eat in the cafeteria. Totally up to them.

[Heartstrings]

9 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

I’d have sued the pants off that district.

We were to poor to do anything, and still somewhat in the mentality of “can’t fight the school”.  We switched schools then eventually started homeschooling after a job change made that possible.  

[hshibley]

47 minutes ago, MercyA said:

This thread makes me appreciate my local high school's lunch policy. They are one of the few schools in our state to still have open lunch. The kids can go home, go outside, walk to the local grocery store's deli, eat in the cafeteria. Totally up to them.

Is this in the US? I’d love for my son’s school to have this. The Cafeteria is too small for the student body and the school is across the street from some good lunch options. 

[Kassia]

10 minutes ago, hshibley said:

Is this in the US? I’d love for my son’s school to have this. The Cafeteria is too small for the student body and the school is across the street from some good lunch options. 

My high school had an "open campus" for lunch, which was fabulous except that there were quite a few car accidents caused by students rushing back for class.  But this was a very long time ago.  DH's elementary school allowed students to walk home for lunch but I don't think that would be allowed anymore.  

ETA - both in the US and different states

Edited August 26, 2022 by Kassia

[bluemongoose]

9 hours ago, katilac said:

 

 

That's rude in any context, though, so it's a valid thing to correct.  

 

Indeed, it is rude. It was an example about learning to listen and meet the needs of each other. Mutual respect. Kids have to learn to not be rude, even when they aren't meaning to be, and adults need to learn to respect the autonomy of kids. 

[MercyA]

4 hours ago, hshibley said:

Is this in the US? I’d love for my son’s school to have this. The Cafeteria is too small for the student body and the school is across the street from some good lunch options. 

Yes, it is. It's also nice that the whole high school has lunch at the same time, so people can see their friends.

[Ting Tang]

18 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

It’s always gross but it’s especially creepy in middle and high school where administrators are usually male.  A grown man spanking a girl with developing breasts and curves is just skeevy and would not be acceptable in literally any other scenario.  

I cannot even fathom the teachers in my family feeling remotely comfortable carrying out any such type of physical punishment.  This really grosses me out.  And can teachers please be allowed to just teach?  If a student's behavior is so bad, remove the student from the classroom. Call the parents and say the child has to be picked up.  

Edited August 26, 2022 by Ting Tang

[Eos]

On 8/25/2022 at 10:13 AM, edelweiss said:

Wow! I cannot believe that this is still going on in some places and now coming back in others.

When I was in middle school in Tampa, Florida in the 80s, paddling was routine. (I was shocked to discover this as I had moved from Ohio and it wasn't done where I lived there.) I ended up getting a "job" as a Dean's Assistant during the last class period of the day. Any paddling taking place that day would happen during the last class period. So, every day (and I really don't remember many, if any, days that I did not have to do this) I would have to take the little green Dean's slips to the appropriate classroom. I would hand them to the teacher and she would call out the name of the person who the dean was requesting to see. During last period, it meant 95% of the time that the student was going to get paddled. So, everyone knew why that person was being called down. The kids would sit in chairs lining the front of the dean's office and wait to be called into the dean's office. The dean would talk to them for a minute or two and then he would open the door and call his secretary (an elderly woman) in to the office to witness the paddling. The door would close and everyone in the main part of the office would hear the kid get smacked with the wooden paddle three times. The kid would walk out and the dean would call the next person in. Most days there were 3-5 kids getting paddled. Sometimes there were 8-10. 

I think that they ended the paddling punishment a few years later. I can't believe that some places are bringing it back!  The way Florida is going right now, I wouldn't be shocked if they brought it back to my old middle school. I feel like the whole world is going crazy most days.

 

 

I am horrified.  Beyond words.

[Dmmetler]

2 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

I cannot even fathom the teachers in my family feeling remotely comfortable carrying out any such type of physical punishment.  This really grosses me out.  And can teachers please be allowed to just teach?  If a student's behavior is so bad, remove the student from the classroom. Call the parents and say the child has to be picked up.  

My very first year teaching in Memphis, with a still wet grad degree, I was teaching at an urban school and had a 6th grade girl get very verbally aggressive and threatening, so I called the office-only to have to witness the principal paddle the girl. She was stoic and tossed off a "like I care". I ended up in the restroom, crying and physically ill. That was the last time I ever contacted any principal with regards to discipline until my very last one, who had made it clear up front that corporal punishment was not acceptable in the Marine Corps-and also was not acceptable in his school. Guess which principal also had the best behaved, least chaotic school? 

 

 

[Tanaqui]

You'll all be shocked to hear, I'm sure, that paddling disproportionally affects students who are: minorities, poor, and/or disabled.

And that if you're in one of those groups, even signing the paperwork insisting nobody lays a hand on your child does not keep them from hitting your child: https://hechingerreport.org/state-sanctioned-violence-inside-one-of-the-thousands-of-schools-that-still-paddles-students/

https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/08/10/impairing-education/corporal-punishment-students-disabilities-us-public-schools

[rebcoola]

21 hours ago, Heartstrings said:

It’s always gross but it’s especially creepy in middle and high school where administrators are usually male.  A grown man spanking a girl with developing breasts and curves is just skeevy and would not be acceptable in literally any other scenario.  

At least back in the day it was always a man. My dad was told he would be the official paddler because there was no other men on staff.  Because a wooden paddle wasn't scary enough. It was out-lawed in my state a couple years into his teaching career.  They had the kids sign the paddle and give it to him as a souvenir.  So weird!!

[katilac]

On 8/26/2022 at 8:00 AM, Starr said:

I may have mentioned before the student in my seventh grade class who kept talking and the teacher got mad and he wrapped masking tape around his head and mouth a couple of times. I was horrified. We never heard of any repercussions. 

Duct tape over the mouth was something I saw several times in my 1970s elementary school, different grades. 

In 1st grade, a little boy was scared and crying and I think trying to run out of the room, the teacher's solution was to put him on top of a tall cabinet (like much too tall for him to jump down). 

In about 4th grade, a teacher put a boy over her lap in front of the class. She did not hit him, but kept him in 'spanking position' for the duration of the lesson. 

High school, and I have no memory of why the topic came out, but a boy for some reason said something about dropping his pants. The teacher told him to go right ahead, and he dropped trou without hesitation and mooned the whole class while she frantically yelled that she didn't mean it.  He wasn't upset by it, so that was actually a funny one. He did not get into trouble, because of course the teacher hardly wanted to say that she told a student to drop his pants 😂