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The “vaccination divide” in the US


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1 minute ago, TexasProud said:

Ok, have you looked at the Louisiana numbers.  All of their beds are full.

Source? 

Also https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/05/covid-19-hospitalizations-among-kids-likely-overcounted.html

"Children being treated in hospitals are tested for SARS-CoV-2, but many who test positive never develop COVID-19 symptoms, leading to overestimates of disease severity, a study found."

Susan in TX

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2 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

Source? 

Also https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/05/covid-19-hospitalizations-among-kids-likely-overcounted.html

"Children being treated in hospitals are tested for SARS-CoV-2, but many who test positive never develop COVID-19 symptoms, leading to overestimates of disease severity, a study found."

Susan in TX

https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/childrens-hospitals-covid-louisiana-capacity-full/289-bc234f66-2ee8-43bb-99ea-853c4cd9528a

 

Make sure you watch the video. Also, I believe your article was before the Delta Variant.  You are correct about that before Delta. Delta has changed the game for children and pregnant women.

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re the unbearable heaviness of overwhelming scale

4 hours ago, TexasProud said:

No, not really.   I mean I am doing what I can, but what has that done in my corner. NOTHING. I cannot do anything else to change the tide here. I am doing everything I know to do and it is useless. Thousands will probably die in my corner as this virus continues to mutate. I cannot change that. Yeah, I can stay safe, but I can't fix the thousands of deaths.

You are right. You cannot change the tide.

4 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Yes, this will just change our society, much like the Black death in the Middle Ages. The way of life completely changed and many, many died.  Just a repeat now with same results. Nothing I can really do to change it.

You are already right about many many deaths, and you may well be right about our way of life changing permanently.  (Widespread, quick & cheap international air travel, for instance, may well be out of reach for a long long time.)

3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

An acknowledgement that none of us have the control that we think we do...

We

are

not

in

control

CDC is not suggesting we are, nor is the Israeli government or Pfizer or President Biden or the Main Stream Media or anyone else. Certainly no one on this board.

 

 

3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

I was replying to the poster who told me there is always something we can do to make a difference. Nope. Sometimes what we do makes do difference at all. None.

That might have been me.

And I agree that for problems of COVID-scale magnitude, our individual actions can't change the overall trajectory of the problem.  Same with climate change, global hunger, nuclear arms race, other similarly scaled issues. 

Collective action can effect big scaled change -- collective action eliminated smallpox, sharply bent the incidence of polio and a handful of other miserable diseases, vastly improved treatment and odds of surviving a large number of other diseases.  Humans have held the technological capability of destroying the earth entirely since the 1940s and yet  have managed, through a combination of public policy and dumb luck to have lurched on for going on 80 years without doing so.

Some folks are, by disposition and skill set, gifted at translating individual effort toward collective work, through science, politics, activism, writing, art. 

A lot of us have trouble doing so.  The scale is too big, the work is too Sisyphean, the time is too long, the payoff is too invisible.  It is overwhelming.

I've posted this before: Ruth Messinger reverts often to the idea that we cannot retreat into the luxury of being overwhelmed.  We all experience moments when we're too overwhelmed to do much beyond getting up in the morning and slogging through the motions; that's part of being human.  But over the course of months, years, a lifetime, it is incumbent upon us -- for the sake of our own selves, our families, our communities, the strangers in our midst, ethics, in her worldview God -- to figure out some small way to leave the earth a teeny-tiny bit better than how we found it.  We are not expected to complete the work, but neither may we refrain from picking it up and starting.

 

But none of that big-scale challenge is where you seem to be *in this moment.*

3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Not enough. It will not stop the trajectory of my part of the world.  Plus, that just means my life is miserable.

Where our individual actions definitely CAN make a difference is here, at this level.  The other thread you started, about finding "productive" ways to fill your time and absorb your energy, is excellent.

COVID sucks.  There is no redeeming silver lining.  None of the small bits of light it has forced upon us -- a rethinking of what most matters, a better appreciation of real life contact over flickering screens, a recognition that more types of work can be accomplished more remotely than we once knew, better tech skills, emergent businesses able to adapt to and flourish in unexpected opportunities, completed craft projects, newly constructed chicken famrs and gardens and fire pits -- none of those things are worth the costs we bore and are continuing to bear.

And yet, it is also true that we have learned things.  I learned to ZOOM.  My octogenarian mother learned to ZOOM.  My octogenarian mother's octogenarian book group learned (I won't lie: painfully, and late) to ZOOM. We learned to live off deliveries, to project movies outside, to play scattergories online, to do the daily NYT spelling bee puzzle competitively across friend groups, to carry on civic group board meetings virtually, to "attend" author lectures and poetry readings on line, to convert some old work to virtual and pick up new activities outdoors / spaced / ventilated.

None of which -- to your point -- changed the trajectory of the virus.

But it very much DID change the experience of living through it.  Our individual actions very much DID affect our ability to ENDURE this terrible horrible no good very bad time.

 

Also: Therapy helps.  I speak from experience. An awful lot of us have spent time in that hole.  Almost always, the hole starts with, I am not in a hole. I do not need help.

 

 

That said,

3 hours ago, TexasProud said:

....I have a right to be frustrated and here on this board is the only place I can express it.

You absolutely have a right to be frustrated. 

Also to express it here on this board.

I am, myself, at the moment, pretty d@mned irritated at where we are with Delta, with how some policymakers and many of my fellow Americans are approaching public policies, with what imminent school re-opening is looking like.  And I express that on this board on occasion.

I would only encourage you to find OTHER places, besides these boards, to express yourself.

Because however valuable these boards are -- and they are -- there is no substitute for real life connections.  Folks here are smart, funny, perceptive, up on current developments, wise beyond measure. I've learned SOOOOOOO much here.  Nonetheless, it's still only an imaginary space populated by virtual and mostly anonymous strangers. For your own sake: find real ones, as well.

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4 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

Source? 

Also https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2021/05/covid-19-hospitalizations-among-kids-likely-overcounted.html

"Children being treated in hospitals are tested for SARS-CoV-2, but many who test positive never develop COVID-19 symptoms, leading to overestimates of disease severity, a study found."

Susan in TX

Um, if they're at capacity in the pediatric ICU, I think we can conclude they have severe disease. They don't put kids in ICU beds for funsies.

Also, that article was from May, so pre-Delta hitting the US. We're talking Delta- it's a whole 'nother beast than the other variants.  Much more contagious,  and hitting kids much harder (which may or may not be just because so many more are getting it with Delta, but either way, ICUs full of kids = bad) 

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26 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

Children have very low risk of morbidity/mortality from Covid. 

Susan in TX

One - that’s less true with Delta

Two - there’s a lot in life that doesn’t kill you that you have to live with the rest of your life.

Three - children can have underlying health conditions that put them at greater risk too. 

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4 minutes ago, Pam in CT said:

re the unbearable heaviness of overwhelming scale

You are right. You cannot change the tide.

You are already right about many many deaths, and you may well be right about our way of life changing permanently.  (Widespread, quick & cheap international air travel, for instance, may well be out of reach for a long long time.)

We

are

not

in

control

CDC is not suggesting we are, nor is the Israeli government or Pfizer or President Biden or the Main Stream Media or anyone else. Certainly no one on this board.

 

 

That might have been me.

And I agree that for problems of COVID-scale magnitude, our individual actions can't change the overall trajectory of the problem.  Same with climate change, global hunger, nuclear arms race, other similarly scaled issues. 

Collective action can effect big scaled change -- collective action eliminated smallpox, sharply bent the incidence of polio and a handful of other miserable diseases, vastly improved treatment and odds of surviving a large number of other diseases.  Humans have held the technological capability of destroying the earth entirely since the 1940s and yet  have managed, through a combination of public policy and dumb luck to have lurched on for going on 80 years without doing so.

Some folks are, by disposition and skill set, gifted at translating individual effort toward collective work, through science, politics, activism, writing, art. 

A lot of us have trouble doing so.  The scale is too big, the work is too Sisyphean, the time is too long, the payoff is too invisible.  It is overwhelming.

I've posted this before: Ruth Messinger reverts often to the idea that we cannot retreat into the luxury of being overwhelmed.  We all experience moments when we're too overwhelmed to do much beyond getting up in the morning and slogging through the motions; that's part of being human.  But over the course of months, years, a lifetime, it is incumbent upon us -- for the sake of our own selves, our families, our communities, the strangers in our midst, ethics, in her worldview God -- to figure out some small way to leave the earth a teeny-tiny bit better than how we found it.  We are not expected to complete the work, but neither may we refrain from picking it up and starting.

 

But none of that big-scale challenge is where you seem to be *in this moment.*

Where our individual actions definitely CAN make a difference is here, at this level.  The other thread you started, about finding "productive" ways to fill your time and absorb your energy, is excellent.

COVID sucks.  There is no redeeming silver lining.  None of the small bits of light it has forced upon us -- a rethinking of what most matters, a better appreciation of real life contact over flickering screens, a recognition that more types of work can be accomplished more remotely than we once knew, better tech skills, emergent businesses able to adapt to and flourish in unexpected opportunities, completed craft projects, newly constructed chicken famrs and gardens and fire pits -- none of those things are worth the costs we bore and are continuing to bear.

And yet, it is also true that we have learned things.  I learned to ZOOM.  My octogenarian mother learned to ZOOM.  My octogenarian mother's octogenarian book group learned (I won't lie: painfully, and late) to ZOOM. We learned to live off deliveries, to project movies outside, to play scattergories online, to do the daily NYT spelling bee puzzle competitively across friend groups, to carry on civic group board meetings virtually, to "attend" author lectures and poetry readings on line, to convert some old work to virtual and pick up new activities outdoors / spaced / ventilated.

None of which -- to your point -- changed the trajectory of the virus.

But it very much DID change the experience of living through it.  Our individual actions very much DID affect our ability to ENDURE this terrible horrible no good very bad time.

 

Also: Therapy helps.  I speak from experience. An awful lot of us have spent time in that hole.  Almost always, the hole starts with, I am not in a hole. I do not need help.

 

 

That said,

You absolutely have a right to be frustrated. 

Also to express it here on this board.

I am, myself, at the moment, pretty d@mned irritated at where we are with Delta, with how some policymakers and many of my fellow Americans are approaching public policies, with what imminent school re-opening is looking like.  And I express that on this board on occasion.

I would only encourage you to find OTHER places, besides these boards, to express yourself.

Because however valuable these boards are -- and they are -- there is no substitute for real life connections.  Folks here are smart, funny, perceptive, up on current developments, wise beyond measure. I've learned SOOOOOOO much here.  Nonetheless, it's still only an imaginary space populated by virtual and mostly anonymous strangers. For your own sake: find real ones, as well.

Awesome post. 

 

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5 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I wasn't going to be back on this thread because I want to stay positive, so I am not answering any other questions, but could not resist this one.

I  felt comfortable singing when our positivity was 2 percent and cases were very low. But now our numbers are up to 40 with a positivity of 24 percent. Only 1/3 of our population is vaccinated. Singing is a high risk activity with a HIGH method of transmission. The CMDA has been recommending that singing not be done in churches. Not sure if that is their current stance, though I am guessing with the higher rates it is. 

Vaccinated people can get it and can spread it, even when asymptomatic. Choir could be another superspreader event. And it can be serious for people that have been vaccinated, just look at the woman who posted on the other thread. She nearly died. And moderate Covid may still be too much for some people. I do not want to contribute to their deaths. I am one of the younger members of the choir and I am in my mid to late fifties. Nope, will not kill some of those wonderful people. 

Ok, back to happy movies. 🙂

First I want to say that I respect your choices so I am not trying to convince you to change your mind. 

BUT I do wonder what the statistical possibility is for asymptomatic spread by the vaccinated? My educated guess is that it is very small.  Do we even have any proof that Covid has been spread by the vaccinated? 

AND if others are choosing to participate in the choir anyway, does your participation increase their risk in any meaningful way?

Just some things to think about.

Susan in TX

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6 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

First I want to say that I respect your choices so I am not trying to convince you to change your mind. 

BUT I do wonder what the statistical possibility is for asymptomatic spread by the vaccinated? My educated guess is that it is very small.  Do we even have any proof that Covid has been spread by the vaccinated? 

AND if others are choosing to participate in the choir anyway, does your participation increase their risk in any meaningful way?

Just some things to think about.

Susan in TX

Yes, Provincetown. And stuff out of Israel. Again, this is a new Delta problem. Original Covid didn't seem to be spread much by vaxed people, but it seems like that's no longer so unusual with Delta.  Which really sucks.

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4 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

First I want to say that I respect your choices so I am not trying to convince you to change your mind. 

BUT I do wonder what the statistical possibility is for asymptomatic spread by the vaccinated? My educated guess is that it is very small.  Do we even have any proof that Covid has been spread by the vaccinated? 

AND if others are choosing to participate in the choir anyway, does your participation increase their risk in any meaningful way?

Just some things to think about.

Susan in TX

yes, we have lots of proof of vaccinated people spreading it, unfortunately. Less often, but yes, they can and do spread it. Now, in an area with little transmission, doing a low risk activity with other vaccinated people the risk is low. Doing a high risk activity in an area of high positivity with a lot of unvaccinated people...that risk is not low. 

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I just want to first offer Texas Proud hugs, and say, yup. I am angry and sad and upset about it too. I get that. And in fact, I am willing to say I am NOT fine. Not at all. I'm dealing with depression and anxiety. I nearly had a panic attack the other day, in fact - had to stop exercising because my heart rate was so dang high from anxiety!

Maybe that is why people don't feel the need to point out to me I'm sounding depressed - because I full admit I am? 

And I'm totally with you that the worst part is not being able to DO ANYTHING to fix it, because everyone else around is refusing to believe there is anything to fix. It is MADDENING. I think if it wasn't making me crazy it would mean something was wrong with me, honestly. 

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5 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

Where is the proof? Are there studies? How exactly do we know this is happening and to what extent?

Susan in TX

In a few places now there have been studies showing this, in the Provincetown one, at a wedding, and others I think. 

We also have proof that if infected, a vaccinated person has the same level of viral load in the first several days of infection as an unvaccinated person. Now, their viral load drops faster, but for a time, they seem to be just as infectious. Less likely to catch it, and likely infectious for a shorter period of time, but at least in the first few days - with Delta specifically - they are just as contagious. (with earlier variants that was not the case)

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4 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

Where is the proof? Are there studies? How exactly do we know this is happening and to what extent?

Susan in TX

Did you read the news story from the local Louisiana news station about the children that I linked? 

As far as pregnant women, I posted this earlier on one of the threads:

https://www.kxan.com/news/coronavirus/variants-effect-on-pregnant-women-to-be-discussed-by-area-health-experts-at-1030-a-m/

Plus, now I now someone personally in ICU, just had a 2 pound premie.  They had to induce I believe to try and save both of their lives. Again, the old version of Covid did not seem to affect pregnant women. Delta is a game changer. 

If you want statistical studies, you will have to wait. Since Delta has just really become dominant over the last couple of months, they are just now gathering data. But these local reports concern me greatly. If I were pregnant or had a child, I would be taking this much more seriously now. 

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7 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

Where is the proof? Are there studies? How exactly do we know this is happening and to what extent?

Susan in TX

I read about a cruise ship the other day with I believe 6 people infected. All vaxxed except a few children who had been tested 3x before boarding. Plus Provincetown. I mean we know vaxxed can get it and they’ve measured similar levels of viral load so to me they’re making pretty good assumptions. Maybe there are cases we aren’t hearing about that confirm this. 

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4 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

In a few places now there have been studies showing this, in the Provincetown one, at a wedding, and others I think. 

We also have proof that if infected, a vaccinated person has the same level of viral load in the first several days of infection as an unvaccinated person. Now, their viral load drops faster, but for a time, they seem to be just as infectious. Less likely to catch it, and likely infectious for a shorter period of time, but at least in the first few days - with Delta specifically - they are just as contagious. (with earlier variants that was not the case)

Tbh I think the Provincetown outbreak is an outlier and we can't extrapolate from it.  It was a large crowded festival weekend.  With how easily Delta spreads, it's possible that only a handful of unvaccinated people could have spread it to a number of people.  And were the vaccinated people intimate?  There are a lot of variables which could have been in play in that situation. I'm not saying vaccinated people don't spread it at all, but I don't think that's a good example. 

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14 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I just want to first offer Texas Proud hugs, and say, yup. I am angry and sad and upset about it too. I get that. And in fact, I am willing to say I am NOT fine. Not at all. I'm dealing with depression and anxiety. I nearly had a panic attack the other day, in fact - had to stop exercising because my heart rate was so dang high from anxiety!

Maybe that is why people don't feel the need to point out to me I'm sounding depressed - because I full admit I am? 

And I'm totally with you that the worst part is not being able to DO ANYTHING to fix it, because everyone else around is refusing to believe there is anything to fix. It is MADDENING. I think if it wasn't making me crazy it would mean something was wrong with me, honestly. 

Yeah, echoing this. @TexasProud, it's okay to admit that we're not fine. 

Honestly, we shouldn't be "okay." We're at the start of a surge during a pandemic. Everyone has to find their own way to get through it but anger and grief are a normal response to what's happening in the world. 

 

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5 hours ago, KSera said:

Such a good show, thanks for sharing the clip.  One of the few good things to come from this awful pandemic for us is that my husband and I watched the entire series together, having never seen it before.  It was someone sharing a different clip from it (Josh and Leo’s poingnant “man in a hole” conversation) early on that prompted me to want to watch.  I’m sad that we have finished it.

🙁 I had been noticing lately that you were sounding like you were doing better, but sounds like recent developments have tipped you back into catastrophizing mode. I’m sorry you are struggling. Did you find someone to work with? ((Hugs))

I’ve  watched He West Wing all the way through three times since Feb. 2020. I had never watched it before, either. It’s a show full of hope in unexpected ways. 

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1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Yeah, echoing this. @TexasProud, it's okay to admit that we're not fine. 

Honestly, we shouldn't be "okay." We're at the start of a surge during a pandemic. Everyone has to find their own way to get through it but anger and grief are a normal response to what's happening in the world. 

 

Me, too @TexasProud.  I feel like I've been "okay" for so long and now I am just tired and frustrated and am struggling to get on top of it.  I have been making things work for so long and each decision is hard.  And this month, dh has been sick for most of the weeks and every decision had to be made and carried out by me.  I feel like I am doing "all the things."  I've got a dd to get off to university in another country and need to navigate the mine field of this new surge.  Things are "ok" here, but I was enjoying "great" and "getting even better."

But, pps are right.  We need to and can have hope.  When we loose hope, we need to get help to see the hope.

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35 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

First I want to say that I respect your choices so I am not trying to convince you to change your mind. 

BUT I do wonder what the statistical possibility is for asymptomatic spread by the vaccinated? My educated guess is that it is very small.  Do we even have any proof that Covid has been spread by the vaccinated? 

AND if others are choosing to participate in the choir anyway, does your participation increase their risk in any meaningful way?

Just some things to think about.

Susan in TX

Your information seems to be about 2 months out of date.  A lot has changed since Delta hit. 

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5 minutes ago, freesia said:

 

But, pps are right.  We need to and can have hope.  When we loose hope, we need to get help to see the hope.

I have hope. A paper I finished and turned in was all about the hope we have as Christians. I do.  I am just venting on here. Promise.

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11 minutes ago, freesia said:

Tbh I think the Provincetown outbreak is an outlier and we can't extrapolate from it.  It was a large crowded festival weekend.  With how easily Delta spreads, it's possible that only a handful of unvaccinated people could have spread it to a number of people.  And were the vaccinated people intimate?  There are a lot of variables which could have been in play in that situation. I'm not saying vaccinated people don't spread it at all, but I don't think that's a good example. 

I agree with this. I keep saying this, and haven't gone looking for the info yet, but I'd really like to know how much of the new CDC spread data is all based on Provincetown, because if that's it, that's not a good situation to extrapolate widely based on. I mean, it shows us that the vaccine is clearly not bulletproof against delta, but I don't think it gives us a good real world estimate of just how much breakthrough and spread we might expect among the vaccinated.

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38 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Um, if they're at capacity in the pediatric ICU, I think we can conclude they have severe disease. They don't put kids in ICU beds for funsies.

Also, that article was from May, so pre-Delta hitting the US. We're talking Delta- it's a whole 'nother beast than the other variants.  Much more contagious,  and hitting kids much harder (which may or may not be just because so many more are getting it with Delta, but either way, ICUs full of kids = bad) 

I still would like to know how many of those kids were in the hospital for other reasons and tested for Covid.  Because I know at least some hospitals are testing every person for Covid.  Symptomatic or not.  Children's ICU beds are full, I understand that, but how many children's ICU beds are there per population, and are there still the same # of available children's ICU beds now as normal, or have they switched resources away from kids' ICU to accommodate increase in adults needing ICU beds?  Or put another way, what is the raw number and % of child population who is in the children's ICU for no reason other than severe Covid effects?

To me, the statement that the kids' ICU is at capacity really tells me very little.  Other than there is an intent to alarm.  Give me more info and let me decide if there is a legitimate need to be alarmed for all kids.  (Because let's be honest, our media thrive on blowing things up for ratings and clicks.)

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4 minutes ago, KSera said:

I agree with this. I keep saying this, and haven't gone looking for the info yet, but I'd really like to know how much of the new CDC spread data is all based on Provincetown, because if that's it, that's not a good situation to extrapolate widely based on. I mean, it shows us that the vaccine is clearly not bulletproof against delta, but I don't think it gives us a good real world estimate of just how much breakthrough and spread we might expect among the vaccinated.

I don't have the link handy, but I saw documented cases of spread by vaccinated people before that study. Also, we have documentation that they have similar viral loads early in the disease course - why wouldn't they be able to spread it?

1 minute ago, SKL said:

I still would like to know how many of those kids were in the hospital for other reasons and tested for Covid.  Because I know at least some hospitals are testing every person for Covid.  Symptomatic or not.  Children's ICU beds are full, I understand that, but how many children's ICU beds are there per population, and are there still the same # of available children's ICU beds now as normal, or have they switched resources away from kids' ICU to accommodate increase in adults needing ICU beds?  Or put another way, what is the raw number and % of child population who is in the children's ICU for no reason other than severe Covid effects?

To me, the statement that the kids' ICU is at capacity really tells me very little.  Other than there is an intent to alarm.  Give me more info and let me decide if there is a legitimate need to be alarmed for all kids.  (Because let's be honest, our media thrive on blowing things up for ratings and clicks.)

You think doctors are just pretending they are seeing way more kids with covid getting sicker? For media ratings?

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Related to spread by the vaccinated I found this https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7031e2.htm?s_cid=mm7031e2_w

"...Ct values obtained with SARS-CoV-2 qualitative RT-PCR diagnostic tests might provide a crude correlation to the amount of virus present in a sample and can also be affected by factors other than viral load.††† Although the assay used in this investigation was not validated to provide quantitative results, there was no significant difference between the Ct values of samples collected from breakthrough cases and the other cases. This might mean that the viral load of vaccinated and unvaccinated persons infected with SARS-CoV-2 is also similar. However, microbiological studies are required to confirm these findings."

Susan in TX

 

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

I still would like to know how many of those kids were in the hospital for other reasons and tested for Covid.  Because I know at least some hospitals are testing every person for Covid.  Symptomatic or not.  Children's ICU beds are full, I understand that, but how many children's ICU beds are there per population, and are there still the same # of available children's ICU beds now as normal, or have they switched resources away from kids' ICU to accommodate increase in adults needing ICU beds?  Or put another way, what is the raw number and % of child population who is in the children's ICU for no reason other than severe Covid effects?

To me, the statement that the kids' ICU is at capacity really tells me very little.  Other than there is an intent to alarm.  Give me more info and let me decide if there is a legitimate need to be alarmed for all kids.  (Because let's be honest, our media thrive on blowing things up for ratings and clicks.)

I would like to know this, too.  I am finding it really hard to find information with regard to children.  I have a 12 year old and a dh who wants to wait to get her vaccinated until there is FDA approval (everyone else is vaccinated.)  I want clear data to understand her actual risk (understanding there is no predicting variants).  What are the children in ICU for? What are there risk factors?  I guess I want to know how many normal weight, athletic, completely healthy children have been hospitalized with this.  I can't find any of that.  This is the dd who was hospitalized with a throat abscess from strep so I know it's never "no risk".  I just want some clear data.

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Just now, freesia said:

I would like to know this, too.  I am finding it really hard to find information with regard to children.  I have a 12 year old and a dh who wants to wait to get her vaccinated until there is FDA approval (everyone else is vaccinated.)  I want clear data to understand her actual risk (understanding there is no predicting variants).  What are the children in ICU for? What are there risk factors?  I guess I want to know how many normal weight, athletic, completely healthy children have been hospitalized with this.  I can't find any of that.  This is the dd who was hospitalized with a throat abscess from strep so I know it's never "no risk".  I just want some clear data.

Well, at that particular children's hospital he said specifically that half the kids in the ICU had no preeexisting health problems.

 

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3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I don't have the link handy, but I saw documented cases of spread by vaccinated people before that study. Also, we have documentation that they have similar viral loads early in the disease course - why wouldn't they be able to spread it?

You think doctors are just pretending they are seeing way more kids with covid getting sicker? For media ratings?

No, but no one is being clear about how many children and what there risk factors are.  The articles I have seen with interviews have usually featured children with other risk factors.

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2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Well, at that particular children's hospital he said specifically that half the kids in the ICU had no preeexisting health problems.

1) We still don't know how many "half" is.

2) How are they defining "preexisting health problems"?  Before my friend's daughter died from a car accident, she was in the ICU and didn't have any "preexisting health problems."  There are lots of acute reasons for kids to be in the ICU.

3) And another question - how old are these children who are in the ICU only because of Covid effects and had no "preexisting health problems"?  How many are under 12?

I'm not denying that there's an increase in cases, and that in rare situations, Covid can make kids very sick.  But I still don't feel like the info provided here is sufficiently informative to conclude, e.g., that Delta hurts young kids (on a per case basis) more than original Covid.

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3 minutes ago, freesia said:

No, but no one is being clear about how many children and what there risk factors are.  The articles I have seen with interviews have usually featured children with other risk factors.

This article doesn't have numbers for kids, but it does state that not one of the under 18s who needed to be hospitalized for Covid were vaccinated (part were under 12, part were just not vaccinated). 

 

Most of the children currently hospitalized were not vaccinated against COVID-19, many because they are too young for a shot.

But others who are 12 and older had not been inoculated either, hospital officials said.

None of the teens hospitalized with COVID-19 at Children’s Hospital over the last two weeks were vaccinated, Rye Burch said.

https://news.yahoo.com/sc-hospital-capacity-covid-19-171846096.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall

Part of the reason children's wards are full of children is RSV (which is having a resurgence as people get together) and delayed vaccinations for measles/whooping cough/etc. 

A simultaneous uptick in cases of respiratory syncytial virus, or RSV, which can be serious for infants and older adults, and a pandemic-driven drop in childhood immunization rates that has left more kids vulnerable to vaccine-preventable illnesses like measles and whooping cough has created a perfect storm of disease for children, said Dr. Caughman Taylor, senior medical director at Prisma Health Children’s Hospital–Midlands.

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5 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I don't have the link handy, but I saw documented cases of spread by vaccinated people before that study. Also, we have documentation that they have similar viral loads early in the disease course - why wouldn't they be able to spread it?

Oh, I have no doubt that there is spread by vaccinated people and that with delta, the viral loads are similar early in the disease when they do catch it, I just mean that the pattern of what that then looks like in the real world and how that translates to an efficacy at preventing infection number might be different in other circumstances. That was a very crowded event, with a lot of physical contact involving saliva, to be blunt about it. That's why I don't think it extrapolates to the average risk. The 3/4 were vaccinated number is also meaningless without the context that P-town is at close to 100% of those over 12 vaccinated (which is amazing). I think a hopeful thing about the situation is to see how quickly the outbreak ended. Their positivity peaked at 15% on 7/15, two weeks after the event started, and was down to 4.8% just two weeks later. That seems to me like a different pattern than we would usually expect with a big outbreak like that in an unvaccinated population. Just look at Australia and NSW in particular trying to get a handle on the current outbreak, and even with all their lockdown and test and trace strategies, they're struggling in a population that is much less vaccinated.

 

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2 minutes ago, historically accurate said:

This article doesn't have numbers for kids, but it does state that not one of the under 18s who needed to be hospitalized for Covid were vaccinated (part were under 12, part were just not vaccinated). 

 

Most of the children currently hospitalized were not vaccinated against COVID-19, many because they are too young for a shot.

But others who are 12 and older had not been inoculated either, hospital officials said.

None of the teens hospitalized with COVID-19 at Children’s Hospital over the last two weeks were vaccinated, Rye Burch said.

https://news.yahoo.com/sc-hospital-capacity-covid-19-171846096.html?fr=yhssrp_catchall

Part of the reason children's wards are full of children is RSV (which is having a resurgence as people get together) and delayed vaccinations for measles/whooping cough/etc. 

A simultaneous uptick in cases of respiratory syncytial virus, or RSV, which can be serious for infants and older adults, and a pandemic-driven drop in childhood immunization rates that has left more kids vulnerable to vaccine-preventable illnesses like measles and whooping cough has created a perfect storm of disease for children, said Dr. Caughman Taylor, senior medical director at Prisma Health Children’s Hospital–Midlands.

If there's a measles outbreak, why isn't that the news?

I agree that shutdowns have delayed some kids' vaccinations and other healthcare.  Can folks down there take their kids to drugstores to get routine vaccinations?  That's what I would do.

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2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Oh, I have no doubt that there is spread by vaccinated people and that with delta, the viral loads are similar early in the disease when they do catch it, I just mean that the pattern of what that then looks like in the real world and how that translates to an efficacy at preventing infection number might be different in other circumstances. That was a very crowded event, with a lot of physical contact involving saliva, to be blunt about it. That's why I don't think it extrapolates to the average risk. The 3/4 were vaccinated number is also meaningless without the context that P-town is at close to 100% of those over 12 vaccinated (which is amazing). I think a hopeful thing about the situation is to see how quickly the outbreak ended. Their positivity peaked at 15% on 7/15, two weeks after the event started, and was down to 4.8% just two weeks later. That seems to me like a different pattern than we would usually expect with a big outbreak like that in an unvaccinated population. Just look at Australia and NSW in particular trying to get a handle on the current outbreak, and even with all their lockdown and test and trace strategies, they're struggling in a population that is much less vaccinated.

 

Yes. This.

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Another potential issue brought up by some of my healthcare worker friends is that too much strong-arming on medical folks could create or exacerbate shortages.

The other day, someone posted a photo of nurses protesting with signs:  "We spent ___ months taking care of Covid patients with no protection, and now they are threatening to fire us?"

And today, another friend predicted that there will be a shortage due to a healthcare staff requirement to test multiple times per week if you aren't vaccinated.

Personally I'm not against a requirement to test, vax, or use some specified (based on science) level of barrier if you work with patients.  But as has been said before, there are more than a few workers in that field who will protest a vax-or-test rule, possibly by not showing up for work.

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4 minutes ago, SKL said:

I still would like to know how many of those kids were in the hospital for other reasons and tested for Covid.  Because I know at least some hospitals are testing every person for Covid.  Symptomatic or not.  Children's ICU beds are full, I understand that, but how many children's ICU beds are there per population, and are there still the same # of available children's ICU beds now as normal, or have they switched resources away from kids' ICU to accommodate increase in adults needing ICU beds?  Or put another way, what is the raw number and % of child population who is in the children's ICU for no reason other than severe Covid effects?

To me, the statement that the kids' ICU is at capacity really tells me very little.  Other than there is an intent to alarm.  Give me more info and let me decide if there is a legitimate need to be alarmed for all kids.  (Because let's be honest, our media thrive on blowing things up for ratings and clicks.)

It isn’t just about the beds, it’s about the equipment. Some equipment for children is differentiated to take size into consideration. A lot of supplies are differentiated for size. The differentiations are made out of necessity, not convenience.

Additionally, peds is a specialty all its own  - care is differentiated according to physical size, physical development, behavioral development, not to mention the nature of the illness itself - there are just some illnesses that children get more often than adults, and some that adults get more often than children and some that impact the different ages in different ways. This means you need staff that knows the details of caring for children - both regular hospital care and critical care, which are again each their own specialty. Staff exhaustion & staff shortages are a real concern. Yes, some hospitals have been “all hands on deck” during this crisis with people serving outside their area of specialization, but that isn’t the ideal and it isn’t an operational goal hospitals have - it’s a backup plan. 

The desired bed availability rate is something that has a lot of variables and there is not a one size fits all calculation for it. 

If the reason for the initial presentation at the hospital is for something other than COVID and the patient tests positive for covid, they must go to a Covid unit in order to minimize risk to non-Covid patients and staff. They are, out of necessity, considered to be Covid patients.  So, in regards to bed count, they aren’t taking a Covid bed that would otherwise remain empty. They DO have Covid.

In addition to Covid, children still get sick and need to be in the hospital - they need surgeries and treatment for illnesses & accidents . We need beds for them, too. Additionally there is a spike in RSV in the southeast right now. A lot of babies get hospitalized with it. It’s not uncommon for them to need some type of respiratory support, such as oxygen or sometimes a ventilator. Add that need to the respiratory needs of COVID.

Traditional calendar school hasn’t even started yet. 

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1 minute ago, SKL said:

OK so I am wondering why they mentioned measles in the article linked above.

All I can think is that they were listing the types of vaccinations that were missed, not specific to why kids were in the hospital.  It's sloppy.  Maybe there are other outbreaks, idk.

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1 hour ago, Pam in CT said:

re the unbearable heaviness of overwhelming scale

You are right. You cannot change the tide.

You are already right about many many deaths, and you may well be right about our way of life changing permanently.  (Widespread, quick & cheap international air travel, for instance, may well be out of reach for a long long time.)

We

are

not

in

control

CDC is not suggesting we are, nor is the Israeli government or Pfizer or President Biden or the Main Stream Media or anyone else. Certainly no one on this board.

 

 

That might have been me.

And I agree that for problems of COVID-scale magnitude, our individual actions can't change the overall trajectory of the problem.  Same with climate change, global hunger, nuclear arms race, other similarly scaled issues. 

Collective action can effect big scaled change -- collective action eliminated smallpox, sharply bent the incidence of polio and a handful of other miserable diseases, vastly improved treatment and odds of surviving a large number of other diseases.  Humans have held the technological capability of destroying the earth entirely since the 1940s and yet  have managed, through a combination of public policy and dumb luck to have lurched on for going on 80 years without doing so.

Some folks are, by disposition and skill set, gifted at translating individual effort toward collective work, through science, politics, activism, writing, art. 

A lot of us have trouble doing so.  The scale is too big, the work is too Sisyphean, the time is too long, the payoff is too invisible.  It is overwhelming.

I've posted this before: Ruth Messinger reverts often to the idea that we cannot retreat into the luxury of being overwhelmed.  We all experience moments when we're too overwhelmed to do much beyond getting up in the morning and slogging through the motions; that's part of being human.  But over the course of months, years, a lifetime, it is incumbent upon us -- for the sake of our own selves, our families, our communities, the strangers in our midst, ethics, in her worldview God -- to figure out some small way to leave the earth a teeny-tiny bit better than how we found it.  We are not expected to complete the work, but neither may we refrain from picking it up and starting.

 

But none of that big-scale challenge is where you seem to be *in this moment.*

Where our individual actions definitely CAN make a difference is here, at this level.  The other thread you started, about finding "productive" ways to fill your time and absorb your energy, is excellent.

COVID sucks.  There is no redeeming silver lining.  None of the small bits of light it has forced upon us -- a rethinking of what most matters, a better appreciation of real life contact over flickering screens, a recognition that more types of work can be accomplished more remotely than we once knew, better tech skills, emergent businesses able to adapt to and flourish in unexpected opportunities, completed craft projects, newly constructed chicken famrs and gardens and fire pits -- none of those things are worth the costs we bore and are continuing to bear.

And yet, it is also true that we have learned things.  I learned to ZOOM.  My octogenarian mother learned to ZOOM.  My octogenarian mother's octogenarian book group learned (I won't lie: painfully, and late) to ZOOM. We learned to live off deliveries, to project movies outside, to play scattergories online, to do the daily NYT spelling bee puzzle competitively across friend groups, to carry on civic group board meetings virtually, to "attend" author lectures and poetry readings on line, to convert some old work to virtual and pick up new activities outdoors / spaced / ventilated.

None of which -- to your point -- changed the trajectory of the virus.

But it very much DID change the experience of living through it.  Our individual actions very much DID affect our ability to ENDURE this terrible horrible no good very bad time.

 

Also: Therapy helps.  I speak from experience. An awful lot of us have spent time in that hole.  Almost always, the hole starts with, I am not in a hole. I do not need help.

 

 

That said,

You absolutely have a right to be frustrated. 

Also to express it here on this board.

I am, myself, at the moment, pretty d@mned irritated at where we are with Delta, with how some policymakers and many of my fellow Americans are approaching public policies, with what imminent school re-opening is looking like.  And I express that on this board on occasion.

I would only encourage you to find OTHER places, besides these boards, to express yourself.

Because however valuable these boards are -- and they are -- there is no substitute for real life connections.  Folks here are smart, funny, perceptive, up on current developments, wise beyond measure. I've learned SOOOOOOO much here.  Nonetheless, it's still only an imaginary space populated by virtual and mostly anonymous strangers. For your own sake: find real ones, as well.

Thank you. I have really appreciated your posts over the past year and a half.

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22 minutes ago, SKL said:

1) We still don't know how many "half" is.

2) How are they defining "preexisting health problems"?  Before my friend's daughter died from a car accident, she was in the ICU and didn't have any "preexisting health problems."  There are lots of acute reasons for kids to be in the ICU.

3) And another question - how old are these children who are in the ICU only because of Covid effects and had no "preexisting health problems"?  How many are under 12?

 

1) Half of the beds being taken by Covid means half of the beds would be empty if it’s weren’t for Covid. Not that other patients would fill them, necessarily, but that they would be empty. This means that whatever number of ICU beds that are typically available for car accidents, surgeries, RSV, etc. in that community are not available.  Lack of available beds for any reason is a serious public health concern. 
 

2) Yes - which is why it’s important to keep tabs on Covid numbers to keep the beds available. People in the ICU with DKA, for example, could be presenting with a new health problem or a crisis for a known problem - either way, they need an ICU bed. I’m not sure why pre existing problems would come into play, because when you need an ICU bed, you need one. 
 

3) Under the age of 18 to be in PICU. Again, pre existing health problems aren’t the issue - bed availability is the issue. If beds are in short supply, it is wise to take precautions to lower the risk as much as possible because you don’t want to be the person who has to be rerouted to another hospital, nor do yo want your family, friends or even strangers. 

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59 minutes ago, SKL said:

I still would like to know how many of those kids were in the hospital for other reasons and tested for Covid.  Because I know at least some hospitals are testing every person for Covid.  Symptomatic or not.  Children's ICU beds are full, I understand that, but how many children's ICU beds are there per population, and are there still the same # of available children's ICU beds now as normal, or have they switched resources away from kids' ICU to accommodate increase in adults needing ICU beds?  Or put another way, what is the raw number and % of child population who is in the children's ICU for no reason other than severe Covid effects?

To me, the statement that the kids' ICU is at capacity really tells me very little.  Other than there is an intent to alarm.  Give me more info and let me decide if there is a legitimate need to be alarmed for all kids.  (Because let's be honest, our media thrive on blowing things up for ratings and clicks.)

So, you think the kids' ICU, which I'm guessing normally has fairly constant numbers over time, just coincidentally became overcapacity with bike accidents or whatever non-Covid reasons kids are 'normally' in the ICU for, and the bike accidents all had asymptomatic Covid as well as concussions, causing the ICU to be coincidentally overfilled at the exact same time as the Delta wave hit?  And the doctors in the articles that say these kids filling their ICU are really sick to the point of needing ICU care because of Covid are just ... confused about why the kids are really there?  Ignoring some other mass injury event that's causing all the pedi ICUs in the state to be popping?

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I wish they would just give numbers. Has anyone seen actual figures? How many kids are in the hospital because of Covid? How many under and over 12? How many vaxxed vs nonvaxxed? Same with adults. I know a super high percentage of unvaxxed are in the hospital, but what are the actual numbers? This kind of information would be really helpful. 

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1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

I wish they would just give numbers. Has anyone seen actual figures? How many kids are in the hospital because of Covid? How many under and over 12? How many vaxxed vs nonvaxxed? Same with adults. I know a super high percentage of unvaxxed are in the hospital, but what are the actual numbers? This kind of information would be really helpful. 

Really helpful for what? We're in the thick of things now so it's probably too early to have good numbers. How long did it take us to good statistics for the first COVID surge? 

I agree that good data is necessary for an invasive precaution against COVID like the vaccine. But do we need good data to mandate masks in school and ask schools to take precautions to limit contact between children? 

Online schooling is not a good option and should be off the table without better data about risks to children, IMHO. 

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1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

I wish they would just give numbers. Has anyone seen actual figures? How many kids are in the hospital because of Covid? How many under and over 12? How many vaxxed vs nonvaxxed? Same with adults. I know a super high percentage of unvaxxed are in the hospital, but what are the actual numbers? This kind of information would be really helpful. 

I’ve seen numbers for specific hospitals. They’ll say things like how many kids they had a week ago, how many they have now, over or under 12 and how many over 12 are vaccinated (so far all of those I’ve seen say they have no vaccinated pediatric Covid cases). I’ll look for an example. 
 

Eta: here are two news stories from today. The majority of time when I’ve heard stats, it’s from lead pediatricians at various children’s hospitals giving press conferences with updates, so that data is harder for me to pull up.

https://www.nola.com/news/coronavirus/article_50f68f3e-f47c-11eb-8a5f-8f45ae7e476a.html
“Children's Hospital New Orleans hasn't had an open intensive care bed in weeks, an official said Monday as he encouraged people to get vaccinated amid the latest COVID-19 surge.

Dr. Mark Kline, physician-in-chief at Children’s Hospital New Orleans, called the delta variant an infectious disease specialist's “worst nightmare” and said that every pediatric facility in the state is “absolutely full.”

Children's has had as many as 20 patients hospitalized on a single day with COVID, he said. Prior to this surge, seven was the highest number at Children's for the pandemic. “


https://www.localmemphis.com/mobile/article/news/health/coronavirus/two-children-in-memphis-died-from-covid-19-over-the-weekend/522-5957eba2-9cc8-46f3-8a05-f867c6e6e477

MPHIS, Tenn. — Two children have died from COVID-19 complications over the weekend. Le Bonheur Children’s Hospital confirmed the news Tuesday. A doctor said the number of kids with COVID is rising.

“One of them was in our intensive care unit and then one of them was in an outlining facility that we serve,” said Dr. Nick Hysmith, the director of Infection Prevention at Le Bonheur Children’s Hospital.

Dr. Hysmith said during the peak of the pandemic last year a few kids were admitted from time to time. Usually, kids who came into the hospital for other reasons and were found to be COVID positive.

“What’s really changed over the last week and a half is we’ve started seeing an increase in the number of kids being admitted with acute COVID.”

The hospital has seen a significant 30% positivity rate among patients as they are screened in the emergency department. Hysmith said one factor is low vaccination rates.

“The delta variant is playing a big role in this,” said the infectious disease specialist. “We know that’s the dominant strain in our community. We know that’s it’s easily transmitted.”

Eight kids are currently COVID positive at Le Bonheur several in critical care. Doctors are encouraging parents to get their child vaccinated if they are 12 and over and to continue frequent handwashing.

“We must mask our children when we go back to school,” said Dr. Hysmith. “I think that’s the biggest thing I would tell parents if we want to protect them.”

Edited by KSera
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2 minutes ago, KSera said:

I’ve seen numbers for specific hospitals. They’ll say things like how many kids they had a week ago, how many they have now, over or under 12 and how many over 12 are vaccinated (so far all of those I’ve seen say they have no vaccinated pediatric Covid cases). I’ll look for an example. 

Here's an example. A pediatrics practice in suburban Tulsa says there are no peds beds currently available in the state of Oklahoma and children are being sent out of state. 

 

 

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And this. 

'It is the perfect storm': Oklahoma hospitals face pediatric bed shortage

Quote

"At least at Oklahoma Children's it's not because of COVID,” said Dr. Cameron Mantor, chief medical officer at Oklahoma Children’s Hospital OU Health. "The last two months have seen an incredible spike in RSV cases. It's also a combination of staffing; there are times when we do not have enough staff to cover all of the beds in the hospital."

What's the connection between RSV and COVID? 

Quote

All of this is transpiring with little to no word coming from state leadership.

Oklahoma is Oklahomining again...(I'm a native Oklahoman, born and raised, so I can <facepalm> at my home state.) 

 

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3 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

What's the connection between RSV and COVID? 

Are you asking? I think the only connection is the fact that there is this strange summer surge of RSV as everything has opened up all at once, when normally this would happen in the winter. A lot of babies and toddlers all encountering RSV for the first time all at the same time.

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2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Are you asking? I think the only connection is the fact that there is this strange summer surge of RSV as everything has opened up all at once, when normally this would happen in the winter. A lot of babies and toddlers all encountering RSV for the first time all at the same time.

Yes, I was asking. I'd read the claim that it was due to things opening up but wondered if there was more to it. I've read about co-infections where children have both RSV and COVID. 

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