The “vaccination divide” in the US

[ktgrok]

Just now, Junie said:

So I can only speak for myself:

I prefer vaccines/treatments that don't use fetal cells, but if there are no other options than I prefer to vax than to not vax.

 

That is a totally consistent stance that makes sense to me. 

[Junie]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

There is so much inconsistency, it makes my head hurt. Shouldn't "pro-life" also include protecting the lives of already born humans and thus being in favor of Covid mitigation measures like masks?
How can the same people insist on their personal freedom to spread their germs while at the same time wanting to regulate what other people do with their bodies? 
But I guess trying to apply logic isn't going to work.

ETA: and of course, I know, #notallchristians. 

I can maybe try to answer this or give some perspective, although I am a Christian who is very pro-vaccine, pro-mask, pro-distancing, etc.

I am pro-life and I believe that the baby is a completely separate person from the moment of conception.  So abortion is not about limiting what a woman can do with her body, but what she can do with her child's body.  

As for the many churches who are meeting in person with no/little restrictions, my best guess is that their reasoning is that spiritual health is more important than physical health.  Personally, I think there is a good compromise in online church services which is what we have been doing since March 2020.  

Some Christians use the Hebrews 10:25 verse: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.  -- And while I believe that this is a good principle, I think that during a global pandemic (or any illness) this verse does not need to be applied to attending in-person services.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

I am always a little confused by folks who won't use a vaccine made with fetal cell lines that aren't even the original cells. Do they also refuse hypothermia treatment (derived from experiments on prisoners by Nazis), and other treatments that have unfortunately come from unethical experimentation in the last, often causing loss of life? Much of what we know today about cervical cancer came from many women not being told they had cervical cancer, allowing nature to take its course so the researchers could watch the disease progression instead of giving these women life saving surgery, anemia treatments derived from data mined from the Tuskegee horrors. Do those folks who protest fetal cell line vaccines also refuse cervical cancer treatment if needed? It seems to me that a consistent pro-life stance on the issue would mean rejecting many other treatments as well.

Just curious. I don't have a dog in that fight because I am not concerned about next so cell lines.

I would guess in most cases, people dont know and haven’t thought about those other things; they just latch onto what “someone” tells them or agree with a meme posted in a, “Yeah! Thats right!” way. 

To some extent, we pretty much all do this. I don’t read the books my ethical vegan friends read because I DON’T WANT TO KNOW. It also explains rather well how someone can be a vegetarian, then move into veganism, then go extremely far on it because there is always the logic of, “Well, if I’m not okay with X, why do I think Z is okay?” 

[regentrude]

12 minutes ago, Junie said:

I can maybe try to answer this or give some perspective, although I am a Christian who is very pro-vaccine, pro-mask, pro-distancing, etc.

I am pro-life and I believe that the baby is a completely separate person from the moment of conception.  So abortion is not about limiting what a woman can do with her body, but what she can do with her child's body.  

As for the many churches who are meeting in person with no/little restrictions, my best guess is that their reasoning is that spiritual health is more important than physical health.  Personally, I think there is a good compromise in online church services which is what we have been doing since March 2020.  

Some Christians use the Hebrews 10:25 verse: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.  -- And while I believe that this is a good principle, I think that during a global pandemic (or any illness) this verse does not need to be applied to attending in-person services.

Thank you for trying to explain. It is still not logical to me. Unborn baby is a separate person and must be protected - but the born people that are out in the community can be exposed to illness because the person cannot be bothered to mask? It's not like they're only gathering for spiritual health in church - it's restaurants and malls, carnivals and fairs. Unmasked and mocking those who dare mask. 

 

[TexasProud]

32 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

That is a totally consistent stance that makes sense to me. 

That is what the article said.

[Junie]

2 minutes ago, regentrude said:

Thank you for trying to explain. It is still not logical to me. Unborn baby is a separate person and must be protected - but the born people that are out in the community can be exposed to illness because the person cannot be bothered to mask? It's not like they're only gathering for spiritual health in church - it's restaurants and malls, carnivals and fairs. Unmasked and mocking those who dare mask. 

 

I agree with you that it doesn't make sense, and I'm just guessing at their reasoning. 

My impression of what my church is doing is that they feel like it is your responsibility to stay home if you don't want to catch covid.  They had all online services for awhile, and then slowly opened back up.  They are pretty much meeting as normal right now.  (I think -- I haven't been there.)

I don't think that churches realize that they are ruining their reputation with the community by not having better restrictions.  And this is so disheartening to me.  The church is supposed to be a light in the community, not self-serving.  Yet this is what they are doing. 😞

 

[Junie]

*In the interest of full disclosure -- I did take dd10 to Vacation Bible School at our church earlier this summer.  She stayed home through the entire lockdown until at least some of the more vulnerable members of our family were vaccinated -- 430 days!  The one thing that she asked to do this summer was to go to VBS because it was her last year.  We quarantined for two weeks before and again for two weeks after so that our only exposure during that time was VBS.  500 people with no distancing, she was one of only about 5 kids wearing a mask.  And they had to shut down on the last day because of some positive covid tests.  I knew that it was likely to happen.  And now that the Delta variant is loose, we will likely not be attending church in person until all of us are vaccinated.

[TexasProud]

2 minutes ago, Junie said:

I don't think that churches realize that they are ruining their reputation with the community by not having better restrictions.  And this is so disheartening to me.  The church is supposed to be a light in the community, not self-serving.  Yet this is what they are doing. 😞

 

It breaks my heart!!!! Yes, we have wasted such an opportunity to be the hands and feet of Jesus.  

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

That is what the article said.

Sorry...I know the article was pro vaccine, and saying which are most ethical. I was more complaining about those who won't get Johnson and Johnson because of being prolife, but won't get the mRNA because of other reasons. at some point, vaccination is more prolife than not. 

[TexasProud]

2 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Sorry...I know the article was pro vaccine, and saying which are most ethical. I was more complaining about those who won't get Johnson and Johnson because of being prolife, but won't get the mRNA because of other reasons. at some point, vaccination is more prolife than not. 

Actually I meant the second article.  He talked about how he worked through the his moral difficulties.   But you are right, it is very, very frustrating!!!!!

[Frances]

2 hours ago, SKL said:

Are you sure these are the same people?

In my state, absolutely, based on demographics, surveys, covid dashboards, news articles, statements and social media posts by R pastors and politicians, protests, etc. I mean nothing is 100%, but there is huge overlap.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Frances

[Melissa Louise]

Re fetal cells, I guess I can understand that ppl don't want to benefit from what they consider an evil act...

But what bothers me is why chose this to make a stand?

We all benefit from modern slavery and coerced/unsafe/exploited labour when we purchase goods - that's evil - and purchase of goods does not have the same common good as vaccination. 

We're all busy pillaging the Earth's resources with our lifestyles - also evil. No common good. 

I'd think that a vaccination using cells derived from a long ago fetus was, if anything, redeeming the 'evil'. A sinful thing happened, but out of that has come an ability to save many lives, including the lives of pregnant women. If the fetus is the important life to consider. 

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Melissa Louise

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

This conversation about fetal cell use in vaccine production is a good one to have, I’m sure, but that wasn’t my question. I was actually just wondering if anyone knows whether J&J is at all effective against delta. I suppose I could go look for that information myself but I’ve been busy and the women here are usually so informed I thought maybe I could save myself the trouble. One more shot and I guess then I’ll have to stop being lazy and go do my own research. So….does anyone know how effective J&J is against delta? My friends’ hesitation could POSSIBLY be because of fetal cell use, but I don’t actually know that it is. 
 

Also, does anyone know how close novavax is to being approved? Or how it’s looking against delta? 

[kbutton]

I don't really think that using cells derived from existing lines is a slippery slope that will lead to tons of extra abortions. I just don't. There is a lot of potential supply even for new lines with IVF and abortion. 

I do wish that people had more options, but I don't think it's going to end abortion, and it's definitely not going to end IVF for people to refuse vaccines or medical treatment that result from stem cell proliferation.

2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

Yeah, but the production requires the fetal cells, therby encouraging more abortions. At least that is the way I look at it. Using cells that are old and already done in a limited fashion bothers me, but not as much.  I am using part of a dead baby to save my own life, which makes me a little uncomfortable.  Since I have options, I choose the Pfizer or Moderna.

If the lines are old and not from a new cell line created for this purpose, why would it matter if the production, testing, etc. use a few cells or a million cells? None of them are from the original embryo or fetus. The quantity is totally irrelevant at that point. If we could cut down one tree and make lumber from it infinitely, what would it matter if we used one board or a million if using a million didn't require cutting down a single additional tree? 

2 hours ago, ktgrok said:

No - they grow more cells from the same original cells - ALL fetal cells used for the last several decades and those used in the future are grown in a lab from the same original cells. NO new abortions are involved. 

I think it is really important we get that information out there - what you are saying is a commonly held belief, but it simply isn't true. If it was, I'd agree with you!

Thank you!

I am pro-life, but I don't think that symbolic actions that don't actually lead to fewer abortions are a hill to die on. Ethically, I believe (as do many, many ethics committees from many denominations) that getting a treatment derived from fetal lines is like getting an organ transplant from a murder victim (at the most extreme--it's more like millions of people getting an organ transplant from a murder victim). 

I don't think it's odd for people to avoid vaccines derived from fetal cells when there is an option, though I don't feel obligated to do that myself because it won't change the fact of the origin, nor will it require additional abortions to use those vaccines. 

I do know people who refuse additional vaccines besides Covid for these reasons; however, the people I know who do absolutely insist that the vaccines contain Fetal Tissue, which is false, so I don't consider their ethical stance to be valid--they are equating derived stem cells with actual clumps of fetal tissue, as if that's still around from a baby that died decades ago. You have to start with facts to come to a valid conclusion.

[SKL]

1 hour ago, Frances said:

In my state, absolutely, based on demographics, surveys, covid dashboards, news articles, statements and social media posts by R pastors and politicians, protests, etc. I mean nothing is 100%, but there is huge overlap.

What demographics does your state track Covid by?  Our state dashboard only does race, Hispanic or not, sex, and age, by county.  You can't tell who's R or D, pro-life/pro-choice, educated or not, Catholic, Lutheran, Jewish, etc.  (I don't consider social media or online surveys to be representative at all.)

I just kind of doubt that the mask-mockers are the same people who are principled about fetal stem cells.  I mean, there probably is some opinion overlap thanks to facebook memes, but I think that characterization of pro-life individuals is simplistic.  I certainly know lots of pro-life people who masked and vaxed.

FTR my rather conservative church took Covid pretty seriously, and is not anti-vax.  It provided an info link for those concerned about the fetal stem cells, and it's up to each member to decide whether or not they want it.  The people I know well enough to discuss it have been vaxed.

I live in a swing state, and one can generally say the older age groups are more likely to swing Republican, religious, and pro-life.  In my state, 80+% of every age group over 65 is vaccinated.

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, SKL said:

I just kind of doubt that the mask-mockers are the same people who are principled about fetal stem cells.  I mean, there probably is some opinion overlap thanks to facebook memes, but I think that characterization of pro-life individuals is simplistic.  I certainly know lots of pro-life people who masked and vaxed.

Most of the vaccine mockers I know are pro-life.

Some (not an insignificant number) are the same ones that insist that vaccines of many kinds have actual fetal tissue in them. They recruit people to their cause regularly. These are people who are quite influential in my homeschooling and church circles, and they have managed to spread misinformation to people who were on board with being careful early in the pandemic. They were protesting the governor at his personal residence while unmasked and not socially distanced (or at least sharing the details of how to go to this protest). They were actively recruiting people to call their legislators to strip the governor of his emergency powers.

This is not all the pro-life people I know, but it's so many of them that I don't really consider them pro-life anymore. They are pro-lies. 

I do know plenty that masked; the people who were spreading lies got to many, many of these people, and they stopped masking and are refusing to take the vaccine. I know plenty that refused all the measures from the very beginning.

[TravelingChris]

13 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Truth! And the same folks that are anti government being involved in private business and telling employers what they can and cannot do and say the bakery can have whatever rules it wants about baking a cake for a gay wedding, now want government mandates preventing employers from making health rules in the workplace. Which is it folks? You can't have your cake and eat it too!  Anti-vax, by the way, is not a protected class of citizens.

Well I am about freedom for both and do agree that businesses can make requirements for their employees- not things like sexual harassment or racial discrimination but vaccines have a long history of being required.

I believe that when I worked as an Immigration Officer at LAX, I had to get the Hep B vaccine because my job put me at higher risk.

[TravelingChris]

On 8/3/2021 at 6:47 PM, SKL said:

OK so I am wondering why they mentioned measles in the article linked above.

Poor journalism.  Trying to scare people.  

[Frances]

43 minutes ago, SKL said:

What demographics does your state track Covid by?  Our state dashboard only does race, Hispanic or not, sex, and age, by county.  You can't tell who's R or D, pro-life/pro-choice, educated or not, Catholic, Lutheran, Jewish, etc.  (I don't consider social media or online surveys to be representative at all.)

I just kind of doubt that the mask-mockers are the same people who are principled about fetal stem cells.  I mean, there probably is some opinion overlap thanks to facebook memes, but I think that characterization of pro-life individuals is simplistic.  I certainly know lots of pro-life people who masked and vaxed.

FTR my rather conservative church took Covid pretty seriously, and is not anti-vax.  It provided an info link for those concerned about the fetal stem cells, and it's up to each member to decide whether or not they want it.  The people I know well enough to discuss it have been vaxed.

I live in a swing state, and one can generally say the older age groups are more likely to swing Republican, religious, and pro-life.  In my state, 80+% of every age group over 65 is vaccinated.

They don’t track party affiliation, but they do track vaccination rates by county and we have a huge urban/rural divide here with the most left counties highly vaccinated and the most right with very low rates. And that is despite the left counties skewing young and the right counties skewing old. Views on abortion in those counties line up as expected. I personally live in a mixed county with medium vaccine rates.

The numerous anti-max, anti-shutdown (and usually pro-Trump) protests we had were also very political and the religious and political leaders who spoke against public health measures also often mentioned abortion as being evil. The political leaders stances on abortion are also widely known. The signs at protests were also a mix, including about abortion. There were also several instances of churches defying all mandates, resulting in large outbreaks. Again, always conservative evangelical churches with strong anti-abortion stances. Nationally, there have also been numerous anti-abortion conservative evangelical pastors come out against covid mitigation measures. Plus, there have been several posters on this board upset about how their conservative churches handled covid.

And I wasn’t referring to being concerned about fetal stem cells. Just the anti-vax, anti-mask, etc being generally anti-abortion or as they claim, “pro-life”. The post you responded to was about being anti-abortion but also against covid mitigation measures, so that was the context for my post.

And of course it is not a perfect correlation, just as I stated in my post. I know there are people like Mercy on this board who truly are actually pro-life in both words and actions, and not just anti-abortion.
 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Frances

[TravelingChris]

On 8/3/2021 at 10:25 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

And this. 

'It is the perfect storm': Oklahoma hospitals face pediatric bed shortage

What's the connection between RSV and COVID? 

Oklahoma is Oklahomining again...(I'm a native Oklahoman, born and raised, so I can <facepalm> at my home state.) 

 

Both are respiratory viruses;  Once your body is fighting one, it is harder to fight the other. I know last year, there were boardies talking about relatives with both flu and COVID at the same time. 

[TravelingChris]

49 minutes ago, kbutton said:

Most of the vaccine mockers I know are pro-life.

Some (not an insignificant number) are the same ones that insist that vaccines of many kinds have actual fetal tissue in them. They recruit people to their cause regularly. These are people who are quite influential in my homeschooling and church circles, and they have managed to spread misinformation to people who were on board with being careful early in the pandemic. They were protesting the governor at his personal residence while unmasked and not socially distanced (or at least sharing the details of how to go to this protest). They were actively recruiting people to call their legislators to strip the governor of his emergency powers.

This is not all the pro-life people I know, but it's so many of them that I don't really consider them pro-life anymore. They are pro-lies. 

I do know plenty that masked; the people who were spreading lies got to many, many of these people, and they stopped masking and are refusing to take the vaccine. I know plenty that refused all the measures from the very beginning.

Most people I know are pro-life and we all got the vaccines.  My church and another I know about are prolife and very pro vaccine.  

[Frances]

53 minutes ago, TravelingChris said:

Most people I know are pro-life and we all got the vaccines.  My church and another I know about are prolife and very pro vaccine.  

But you live in a well-educated area, correct? If so, not surprising. They just released results of an in-depth vaccine survey here and 90% of those with at least a bachelor’s degree were vaccinated.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Frances

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, TravelingChris said:

Most people I know are pro-life and we all got the vaccines.  My church and another I know about are prolife and very pro vaccine.  

I think that's wonderful. But for where I live, I might be able to say that most pro-life people vaccinated, but it's more like don't ask, don't tell if they did, so I can't say for sure. It's also very true to say that most anti-mask, anti-vaccine people where I live are pro-life. 

[popmom]

I have not read most of this thread, so I apologize if this seems completely random at this point in the thread. I came across a tweet from someone I respect addressing this issue. I remembered seeing the title to this thread, so I thought I’d share his perspective. It’s just one tweet. He is a professor at King’s College in NYC. I’ve followed him for years. I’m not saying I agree with him all the time, but he always makes me think deeply.

I subscribe to The Economist, so it was interesting to me to see his take on this article.

“This is about class folks. This isn’t about Trump. Look at the charts. It’s so obviously about class but we don’t want to admit it. Lower class, Trump-hating blacks, are just as anti-Covid vaccine as lower class pro-Trump poor whites. These cultural overlaps are centuries old!”

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by popmom

[Frances]

1 hour ago, popmom said:

I have not read most of this thread, so I apologize if this seems completely random at this point in the thread. I came across a tweet from someone I respect addressing this issue. I remembered seeing the title to this thread, so I thought I’d share his perspective. It’s just one tweet. He is a professor at King’s College in NYC. I’ve followed him for years. I’m not saying I agree with him all the time, but he always makes me think deeply.

I subscribe to The Economist, so it was interesting to me to see his take on this article.

“This is about class folks. This isn’t about Trump. Look at the charts. It’s so obviously about class but we don’t want to admit it. Lower class, Trump-hating blacks, are just as anti-Covid vaccine as lower class pro-Trump poor whites. These cultural overlaps are centuries old!”

 

I couldn’t access the entire Economist article, so can only see the chart in the tweet and the headline and the first few paragraphs.  I’m not clear how he makes that conclusion from the graphic. Isn’t the widest spread by far between Trump and Biden voters? With much smaller spreads based on income and education? What am I missing?

Interestingly, a survey just released in my state does tend to somewhat back up his claim more with 90% of those with at least a bachelor’s degree vaccinated. Although social ideology was an even larger determinant, with conservatives four times more likely to be unvaccinated than liberals and moderates in the middle. Political affiliation was the third most influential determinant of vaccine status with Democrats and unaffiliated three times more likely to be vaccinated than Republicans. Interestingly, unlike the Economist graphic, there was no difference between men and women.

It seems that what they label as undecided is more like the vaccine hesitant in other surveys I’ve read, and the vaccine hesitant is more like anti-vax, as the legend says they don’t intend to get vaccinated.

The national survey I linked earlier in the thread lines up pretty well with my state survey. It found the anti-vax group tends rural, white, evangelical, and conservative. While the vaccine hesitant group tends urban, younger, Democrat, and more Blacks and Hispanics, and overall more diverse. And the first group is thought to be significantly larger than the second. The difference between anti-vax and vaccine hesitant seems pretty important when it comes to public health outreach.
 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Frances

[SKL]

While I can't read the linked Economist article, it does make sense that class is the bigger determinant, because that would correlate with the ability to find, read, evaluate, and process relatively reliable information about the vaxes and other Covid mitigation strategies.  People of lesser means may also have less frequent contact with medical professionals who could make recommendations about the vax.

Has anyone actually gone into the "unsure" neighborhoods and asked open questions about what the hesitation is?  It would be interesting to listen in on a neighborhood discussion that isn't influenced by ivory tower theories.

[TexasProud]

7 hours ago, kbutton said:

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by TexasProud

[Terabith]

I can't read the article either, but I suspect he is right.  We have two largeish groups who are still unvaccinated:  one is the people who are covid deniers and ideologically opposed to the vaccine.  This group does include a lot of Republican voters but not entirely; our work with the refugee groups has seemed to indicate that a lot of Haitian and refugees from Africa are in this group.  The other group is more of the "vaccine hesitant," which tends to be more Democratic voters, working class, and dealing with the legacy of suspicion from things like the Tuskegee experiments.  The second group has real concerns about things like access (transportation to get shots), worries about side effects forcing them to miss work, and anxiety based on distrust of things like speed of vaccine development and not wanting to be part of an "experiment." There are also folks who are either undocumented or who live with undocumented folks who have concerns that getting vaccinated will get someone caught. This group appears to be more amenable to persuasion, especially done one on one by people they have a relationship with, and particularly if practical issues can be dealt with (not having vaccine information entered into a data base, child care for getting the vaccine or if there are significant side effects, transportation, vaccination scheduled around work in case of side effects, which is NOT a trivial thing to do when folks are working several jobs).  

[Faith-manor]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

While I can't read the linked Economist article, it does make sense that class is the bigger determinant, because that would correlate with the ability to find, read, evaluate, and process relatively reliable information about the vaxes and other Covid mitigation strategies.  People of lesser means may also have less frequent contact with medical professionals who could make recommendations about the vax.

Has anyone actually gone into the "unsure" neighborhoods and asked open questions about what the hesitation is?  It would be interesting to listen in on a neighborhood discussion that isn't influenced by ivory tower theories.

They have surveyed rather informally in my town in which it looks like Mark and I, our college age son, grad school age son, and my mother are the only vaccinated people. Lots of homes with political and religious signage out that is anti-covid vaccine, and the one church in town actively campaigns against all covid protocols as well as the vaccine. There are about 200 people here. The hospital sent a medical van to do walk up vax because things are bit desperate in this part of the county.  No takers. What they gleaned from the conversations they did have or more to the point, the yelling of insults and slurs at the van, was that people here have been told it is "the mark of the beast" and they will go to hell if they take the vaccine. Others have said they think masks are "the mark". The church has pretty big influence even among non-church goers in town. We have been open about being pro-vaccine, pro-mask, anti-parties and big gatherings from the beginning on what little social media we have as well as our own yard signs so we are viewed as dangerous people. I have found that one of the single most damaging errant theologies that has invaded many evangelical and fundamentalist churches is what is this End Times Eschatology. It really does make them see a boogeyman around every single corner. So much paranoia.

Mom had measles and mumps as a kid, lost a cousin to polio. She remembers that measles ravaged her 5th grade class, and for the next two years they were all very sickly, weak, had a hard time putting weight back on, missed a ton of school, would lay down on the ground at recess instead of play, etc. The old country doctor told my grandparents that he saw this all the time in measles patients, some sort of post sickness syndrome that lasted a long time. Of course we now know measles has a tendency to wipe out a lot of immune system memory cells. She said mumps was the single most painful thing she has endured in life, and well, she has had some pretty bad injuries, and four surgeries so I think mumps must have been a pretty darn awful disease. To her, the prospect of long covid scares her more than dying of covid. Those measles and mumps memories never really waned. She is pretty damn mad at that town church right now!

Our county voted 73% R, 2% third party/independent, and 25% D in the 2020 election. It has 38.8% of eligible persons 12+ with a single dose of vaccine. My township went 23% D, exactly one third party vote, and the rest R. Many of the houses that had R signs on their lawns are the ones that have anti-vax signs and also have anti-masks in school signs. So I do believe that in this area, it very much does go along party lines, and church division. Our district representative in Lansing is an R and absolutely a total covid is just a mere common cold nutter. All of our county commissioners are R's, and they have called the medical director of our county health department a witch, a b$tch, a liar, a communist, and an evil wench - in public meetings and they do not fear reprisals for doing it. She has resigned effective Sept.1, and we are going into a Delta nightmare with no one at the helm. Everyone they have interviewed for the job has been rejected for believing covid is a thing to be reckoned with, and they do not want a real medical director, just someone to the fill the desk because the state says they are supposed to have one. EMS is on the brink of just quitting en masse and leaving the entire county without ambulance service and medics. Their contract is up for renegotiation, and the company says it is considering pulling out and not even bidding. There is no other service who operates in this county or even wants to do so because of these commissioners. But if the editorials in the two newspapers in the county are any indication of public sentiment, these idiots are hailed as heroes. 

 

[TexasProud]

7 hours ago, popmom said:

I have not read most of this thread, so I apologize if this seems completely random at this point in the thread. I came across a tweet from someone I respect addressing this issue. I remembered seeing the title to this thread, so I thought I’d share his perspective. It’s just one tweet. He is a professor at King’s College in NYC. I’ve followed him for years. I’m not saying I agree with him all the time, but he always makes me think deeply.

I subscribe to The Economist, so it was interesting to me to see his take on this article.

“This is about class folks. This isn’t about Trump. Look at the charts. It’s so obviously about class but we don’t want to admit it. Lower class, Trump-hating blacks, are just as anti-Covid vaccine as lower class pro-Trump poor whites. These cultural overlaps are centuries old!”

 

That is exactly what the article I posted said  though no one commented on it.  And that makes sense.  In my community 68 percent of kids are economically disadvantaged and get free lunch.  1/3 of the people are vaccinated.  Our church is known as the “rich” church- many doctors, lawyers and professionals. All are vaccinated that I know about. 

[Laura Corin]

2 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

That is exactly what the article I posted said  though no one commented on it.  And that makes sense.  In my community 68 percent of kids are economically disadvantaged and get free lunch.  1/3 of the people are vaccinated.  Our church is known as the “rich” church- many doctors, lawyers and professionals. All are vaccinated that I know about. 

The UK publishes vaccine status by deprivation level but I can only see the statistics for over-50s (95% vaccinated for least deprived, 87% for most deprived).  If the gap in that age group is larger in the US, then deprivation may not be the only issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55274833

 

[TexasProud]

3 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

The UK publishes vaccine status by deprivation level but I can only see the statistics for over-50s (95% vaccinated for least deprived, 87% for most deprived).  If the gap in that age group is larger in the US, then deprivation may not be the only issue.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55274833

 

Sorry. Never meant to hurt anyone's feelings.

Edited August 6, 2021 by TexasProud

[TexasProud]

Never mind. Don't want to hurt anyone.

Edited August 6, 2021 by TexasProud

[Scarlett]

1 hour ago, Faith-manor said:

They have surveyed rather informally in my town in which it looks like Mark and I, our college age son, grad school age son, and my mother are the only vaccinated people. Lots of homes with political and religious signage out that is anti-covid vaccine, and the one church in town actively campaigns against all covid protocols as well as the vaccine. There are about 200 people here. The hospital sent a medical van to do walk up vax because things are bit desperate in this part of the county.  No takers. What they gleaned from the conversations they did have or more to the point, the yelling of insults and slurs at the van, was that people here have been told it is "the mark of the beast" and they will go to hell if they take the vaccine. Others have said they think masks are "the mark". The church has pretty big influence even among non-church goers in town. We have been open about being pro-vaccine, pro-mask, anti-parties and big gatherings from the beginning on what little social media we have as well as our own yard signs so we are viewed as dangerous people. I have found that one of the single most damaging errant theologies that has invaded many evangelical and fundamentalist churches is what is this End Times Eschatology. It really does make them see a boogeyman around every single corner. So much paranoia.

Mom had measles and mumps as a kid, lost a cousin to polio. She remembers that measles ravaged her 5th grade class, and for the next two years they were all very sickly, weak, had a hard time putting weight back on, missed a ton of school, would lay down on the ground at recess instead of play, etc. The old country doctor told my grandparents that he saw this all the time in measles patients, some sort of post sickness syndrome that lasted a long time. Of course we now know measles has a tendency to wipe out a lot of immune system memory cells. She said mumps was the single most painful thing she has endured in life, and well, she has had some pretty bad injuries, and four surgeries so I think mumps must have been a pretty darn awful disease. To her, the prospect of long covid scares her more than dying of covid. Those measles and mumps memories never really waned. She is pretty damn mad at that town church right now!

Our county voted 73% R, 2% third party/independent, and 25% D in the 2020 election. It has 38.8% of eligible persons 12+ with a single dose of vaccine. My township went 23% D, exactly one third party vote, and the rest R. Many of the houses that had R signs on their lawns are the ones that have anti-vax signs and also have anti-masks in school signs. So I do believe that in this area, it very much does go along party lines, and church division. Our district representative in Lansing is an R and absolutely a total covid is just a mere common cold nutter. All of our county commissioners are R's, and they have called the medical director of our county health department a witch, a b$tch, a liar, a communist, and an evil wench - in public meetings and they do not fear reprisals for doing it. She has resigned effective Sept.1, and we are going into a Delta nightmare with no one at the helm. Everyone they have interviewed for the job has been rejected for believing covid is a thing to be reckoned with, and they do not want a real medical director, just someone to the fill the desk because the state says they are supposed to have one. EMS is on the brink of just quitting en masse and leaving the entire county without ambulance service and medics. Their contract is up for renegotiation, and the company says it is considering pulling out and not even bidding. There is no other service who operates in this county or even wants to do so because of these commissioners. But if the editorials in the two newspapers in the county are any indication of public sentiment, these idiots are hailed as heroes. 

 

Good God where do you live?  That sounds like a nightmare.  I thought the small OK town was bad....but nothing as extreme as  what you described above.

[Scarlett]

This is a side point, but it always makes me twitchy when I hear these arguments that 'educated' people are doing such and so.  I have a high school diploma.   Definitely not educated.  But I do know how to read.  I don't get it.  Why does having a degree make you more likely to get the vaccine?

[Scarlett]

I don't have time to go back and find it because I am way behind on this thread and just saw it briefly last night before I went to sleep....someone was posting several links explaining what operation warp speed actually entailed.  I would like to have those links....but anyway my question is why can't the same method be used for authorizing the vaccine for children?

[popmom]

4 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

This is a side point, but it always makes me twitchy when I hear these arguments that 'educated' people are doing such and so.  I have a high school diploma.   Definitely not educated.  But I do know how to read.  I don't get it.  Why does having a degree make you more likely to get the vaccine?

Education does not equal social class. 

[TexasProud]

3 hours ago, Scarlett said:

This is a side point, but it always makes me twitchy when I hear these arguments that 'educated' people are doing such and so.  I have a high school diploma.   Definitely not educated.  But I do know how to read.  I don't get it.  Why does having a degree make you more likely to get the vaccine?

Sorry I hurt people

Edited August 6, 2021 by TexasProud

[Pam in CT]

re similarities, and differences, within socioeconomic class

1 hour ago, Terabith said:

I can't read the article either, but I suspect he is right.  We have two largeish groups who are still unvaccinated:  one is the people who are covid deniers and ideologically opposed to the vaccine.  This group does include a lot of Republican voters but not entirely; our work with the refugee groups has seemed to indicate that a lot of Haitian and refugees from Africa are in this group.  The other group is more of the "vaccine hesitant," which tends to be more Democratic voters, working class, and dealing with the legacy of suspicion from things like the Tuskegee experiments.  The second group has real concerns about things like access (transportation to get shots), worries about side effects forcing them to miss work, and anxiety based on distrust of things like speed of vaccine development and not wanting to be part of an "experiment." There are also folks who are either undocumented or who live with undocumented folks who have concerns that getting vaccinated will get someone caught. This group appears to be more amenable to persuasion, especially done one on one by people they have a relationship with, and particularly if practical issues can be dealt with (not having vaccine information entered into a data base, child care for getting the vaccine or if there are significant side effects, transportation, vaccination scheduled around work in case of side effects, which is NOT a trivial thing to do when folks are working several jobs).  

This is true around here as well. There are overlap issues between the two groups around information, access, uncertainty about cost of vaccine, and within the immigrant community whether getting the vaccine could expose folks to deportation risk.

But there are YUGE differences as well. Starting with: the former group denies that COVID is real or a big deal; the second group does not. This has been VERY obvious and evident throughout the pandemic, in how the two groups have dealt with masking.  You can SEE the difference just walking around in communities with sizable minority populations.

The other YUGE difference is that the Hoaxer anti-vaxers, overwhelmingly white, *do not define themselves as part of a group that includes minorities.*  *They* don't self-identify as part of a "socioeconomic" class; they identify as "conservative" or "Christian" or "Republican" or "freedom fighters" or "patriots" etc.

That was the whole "economic angst" red herring we already fell for once.  The US really doesn't do socioeconomic solidarity across racial lines.

 

6 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don't have time to go back and find it because I am way behind on this thread and just saw it briefly last night before I went to sleep....someone was posting several links explaining what operation warp speed actually entailed.  I would like to have those links....but anyway my question is why can't the same method be used for authorizing the vaccine for children?

The original Warp Speed trials relied on volunteers. It's ethically tricky to do that with kids.

[Murphy101]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

I don't have time to go back and find it because I am way behind on this thread and just saw it briefly last night before I went to sleep....someone was posting several links explaining what operation warp speed actually entailed.  I would like to have those links....but anyway my question is why can't the same method be used for authorizing the vaccine for children?

I used to feel the same way. I only have a high school diploma (took some college classes but whatever) and would bristle a bit at such comments too. 

but

fact is that going to college means they at least should have taken one college level biology course. Pending on where and when they went it may also have meant they had to take college algebra and a basic statistics course.

Even most people that can read does not mean they are reading things that will expand their understanding of science.  The level of lacking in basic science and logic ladder climbing is really profound in most people. But they get so offended or are so ego-ridden that they refuse to listen to new information. And sometimes accepting this knowledge would dramatically change their acceptance in or of their social grouping.

[Scarlett]

1 minute ago, Pam in CT said:

 

 

The original Warp Speed trials relied on volunteers. It's ethically tricky to do that with kids.

Oh I see.  That makes sense. I was thinking about the part where all of the red tape was fast tracked and all the steps were done at the same time.  

[ktgrok]

41 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

distrustful of taking away freedoms, more likely to be in patriarchal churches. Tend to believe what their "leader" tells them. 

The irony in the distrust of losing freedoms, while being pro patriarchy (guess freedoms for women don't count?) and following lock step behind a leader is...impressive. I mean, not as impressive as thinking masks are too porous to contain droplets but too occlusive to allow oxygen and carbon dioxide through...but still impressive. (that one is what broke my faith in humanity I think)

Just now, Scarlett said:

Oh I see.  That makes sense. I was thinking about the part where all of the red tape was fast tracked and all the steps were done at the same time.  

Actually, this IS pretty warp speed. It is that they didn't start with the kids until after they knew it was okay for adults. So it isn't taking longer so much as started later. Because doing trials on kids when we didn't know if it would work or was safe on adults is less ethical. 

Also, due to what we found in adults, the FDA asked for a larger trial size - enough to pick up on more rare side effects such as cardiomyopathy. So they had to add more kids, starting the time period over a bit. I don't think that slowed it down too much though, because cardiomyopathy was something that happens within days/weeks of injection, so they would have the data fairly quickly. 

[SKL]

I don't know if I used the word educated, but to me, educated includes well-read or well-informed.

One of the smartest guys I know can barely read, and dropped out of school at 15.

But I also know a lot of adults who really do not understand the world very well.  I could paper their walls in brillant study reports, and they would be none the wiser.  As these things tend to run in families, there isn't much hope of them questioning the world view that surrounds them.  (And of course, this is not specific to any political party, religion, etc.)

[ktgrok]

I find it so odd that the people saying it is the mark of the devil don't understand that the mark is on the forehead, not the arm where a vaccine is given. So either they didn't read the dang verse or they are taking it as not literal. Same people that will throw a fit if you suggest a 7 day creation isn't meant to be literal. 

[regentrude]

8 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I find it so odd that the people saying it is the mark of the devil don't understand that the mark is on the forehead, not the arm where a vaccine is given. So either they didn't read the dang verse or they are taking it as not literal. 

You're applying logic again. I think we already established that this is futile.

[Faith-manor]

57 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

Good God where do you live?  That sounds like a nightmare.  I thought the small OK town was bad....but nothing as extreme as  what you described above.

I live in a very rural area of the lower peninsula that has had a couple of locals associated with the group that plotted to kidnap our governor and her family, and assassinate her. People are beyond openly hostile with their extremism. Except for UMC, Presbyterian, Episcopal, Catholic, and Lutheran churches, the churches tend to be very fundamentalist even if not associated with fundie denominations, and largely ignored by denominational authorities. The independent churches also run very fundamentalist, very much "everybody else has a one way ticket to hell", and run Hell Houses in the fall, VBS's that focus on telling children that they will go to heel if they don't pray the sinners prayer and confess every little thing they can think of to god and their parents which seems to cause a good amount of emotional trouble in the children. The nearest city is 50 minutes away. The largest town has just under 4000 people. The county has lost a lot of population in the past two decades because of lack of decent employment for younger generations. 

[Faith-manor]

20 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't know if I used the word educated, but to me, educated includes well-read or well-informed.

One of the smartest guys I know can barely read, and dropped out of school at 15.

But I also know a lot of adults who really do not understand the world very well.  I could paper their walls in brillant study reports, and they would be none the wiser.  As these things tend to run in families, there isn't much hope of them questioning the world view that surrounds them.  (And of course, this is not specific to any political party, religion, etc.)

I agree. I think that changing family culture from one generation to the next is very challenging. And I am not sure that it happens all that often. I think some members of the next generation simply break off and don't look back, starting a new family culture of their own, and often ostracized by the family in which they were raised. I actually nothing that is easier, than standing up to family for what one believes is right or necessary and trying to change it from within and that includes other things like emotional abuse and manipulation, alcoholism, etc.

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Scarlett said:

This is a side point, but it always makes me twitchy when I hear these arguments that 'educated' people are doing such and so.  I have a high school diploma.   Definitely not educated.  But I do know how to read.  I don't get it.  Why does having a degree make you more likely to get the vaccine?

 

34 minutes ago, SKL said:

I don't know if I used the word educated, but to me, educated includes well-read or well-informed.

One of the smartest guys I know can barely read, and dropped out of school at 15.

But I also know a lot of adults who really do not understand the world very well.  I could paper their walls in brillant study reports, and they would be none the wiser.  As these things tend to run in families, there isn't much hope of them questioning the world view that surrounds them.  (And of course, this is not specific to any political party, religion, etc.)

What @SKLsaid. It's all generalities. In general people who are formally well educated are more likely to be vacccinated. They're also ,more likely to be well read, well informed, intellectually curious and more able to think critically. But of course there are and will always be outliers on both sides of that. I know a couple of people with advanced degrees who are, other than in their own specific areas of expertise, what I consider to be fundamentally stupid people. They aren't well read or intellectually curious about the world as a whole, in many ways they lack critical thinking skills. Mostly the issue I see with them is they are unaware of their own limitations, they never give consideration to what they might not know. OTOH I know people with only high school degrees who are well read, intellectually curious, excellent at critical thinking, etc. My brother, who himself is well degreed and described by many people as the smartest person they know, tells everyone that the smartest person he ever worked with in his field (engineering) only has a community college degree.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Pawz4me

[ktgrok]

26 minutes ago, regentrude said:

You're applying logic again. I think we already established that this is futile.

I know...I keep forgetting. 

[rebot]

2 hours ago, TexasProud said:

No, I agree, but there is a big difference between the richer Trump supporters and the poorer Trump supporters.  The ones that were more well off that voted for Trump, held their noses while they did so. They like Republican small government, fiscal conservative, pro- life stance ( though, did he really do that???). They don't believe the election was stolen. Do believe in science.  Then you have the poorer white Republicans, some racist, some not. They have a DEEP distrust of the government. They are less educated. Very distrustful of taking away freedoms, more likely to be in patriarchal churches. Tend to believe what their "leader" tells them.  Then we have the minorities that are very distrustful of the government because of racism, systematic issues, poverty mindset, etc. And heck, the government HAS experimented on minorities in the past. 

Trust is the big issue and I don't have a clue how we rebuild that in either group. 

WOW.... that's one way to put people into a stereotypical group.

I'll tell you that I'm a pro-choice, agnostic, live and let live, fiscally conservative independent that has stated leaning more and more right as the government has overstepped authority. I do believe in science, which is why I don't believe a scientist just because he is a scientist unless he is willing to cite his sources. I do believe the election was stolen. There were too many mathematically improbabilities in my county alone to discount fraud. Add up these improbabilities and they become impossibilities.

I'll let my dad know, based on your description, although he started his own reasonably successful electrician company he's still uneducated. I'll let him know he better check his 'white privlege' just to be on the safe side. It's a good thing he's atheist so we don't have to be worried about those pesky patriarchal churches. I haven't figured out how a DEEP distrust in government works with believing what their "leader" tells them. Wait.... I get it now .... "leader" means one of "those" people from "those" conservative tv stations doesn't it. Luckily, he gave up "those" stations after the election so thankfully we also do have to worry about that.

I've been a lurker on here for a long time. I've only recently started commenting because we've just moved to a foreign country and I have A LOT of extra time on my hands. I'll tell you this is the first time (that I remember) that I have been offended by something I've read on here. I often disagree, but I always find the conversations interesting to get opposing views.

Trust is a huge issue. I also don't know how we rebuild but reading your assumptions about a large portion of the population shows me that this is an even bigger issue than I thought.