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The “vaccination divide” in the US


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33 minutes ago, rebot said:

WOW.... that's one way to put people into a stereotypical group.

I'll tell you that I'm a pro-choice, agnostic, live and let live, fiscally conservative independent that has stated leaning more and more right as the government has overstepped authority. I do believe in science, which is why I don't believe a scientist just because he is a scientist unless he is willing to cite his sources. I do believe the election was stolen. There were too many mathematically improbabilities in my county alone to discount fraud. Add up these improbabilities and they become impossibilities.

I'll let my dad know, based on your description, although he started his own reasonably successful electrician company he's still uneducated. I'll let him know he better check his 'white privlege' just to be on the safe side. It's a good thing he's atheist so we don't have to be worried about those pesky patriarchal churches. I haven't figured out how a DEEP distrust in government works with believing what their "leader" tells them. Wait.... I get it now .... "leader" means one of "those" people from "those" conservative tv stations doesn't it. Luckily, he gave up "those" stations after the election so thankfully we also do have to worry about that.

I've been a lurker on here for a long time. I've only recently started commenting because we've just moved to a foreign country and I have A LOT of extra time on my hands. I'll tell you this is the first time (that I remember) that I have been offended by something I've read on here. I often disagree, but I always find the conversations interesting to get opposing views.

Trust is a huge issue. I also don't know how we rebuild but reading your assumptions about a large portion of the population shows me that this is an even bigger issue than I thought.

I am sorry. I will erase. Did not mean to offend. It is just true in rural Texas more often than not.  I understand what you are saying that everyone is different, that is just what is playing out statistically.  I mean, I am a white Christian woman who supposedly should be for Trump.  I hate the man...ok Christians shouldn't hate... I didn't vote for him either time and have been a critic. I don't fit the sterotype in many ways.  Now rural California is probably different as is New Jersey. 

Again. I will erase. Did not mean to offend. 

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4 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

She said mumps was the single most painful thing she has endured in life, and well, she has had some pretty bad injuries, and four surgeries so I think mumps must have been a pretty darn awful disease. To her, the prospect of long covid scares her more than dying of covid. Those measles and mumps memories never really waned. She is pretty damn mad at that town church right now!

That's telling. 

Your descriptions make me feel like I live in the land of reason and sanity, and I don't. I am so sorry it's so bad where you are.

2 hours ago, Murphy101 said:

But they get so offended or are so ego-ridden that they refuse to listen to new information. And sometimes accepting this knowledge would dramatically change their acceptance in or of their social grouping.

I think the bolded really comes into play among "influencers" locally. They tend to be people that have reason to distrust the healthcare system, which is sad. I mean, I have lots of reasons to be skeptical about healthcare as well, but I also know that there is good healthcare out there. They seem to just stop at being skeptical until it's time to spread pandemic misinformation. 

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9 hours ago, SKL said:

 

Has anyone actually gone into the "unsure" neighborhoods and asked open questions about what the hesitation is?  It would be interesting to listen in on a neighborhood discussion that isn't influenced by ivory tower theories.

Yes, there have been links in this very thread where public health officials are doing exactly this in Denver and then bringing vaccines to the neighborhoods so that residents don’t have to spend large amounts of time on public transportation. There have been reports from all over the country about public health officials identifying low vaccination areas and then working with local organizations and leaders to see how they can best reach people where they are. And then in the process of talking to people at vaccination sites, they learn even more about the concerns and issues. 

However, the majority of this type of work seems to be in urban areas, at least from what I’ve read. Here, rural leaders and officials told public health officials that doing anything like going door to door would greatly backfire because of government mistrust among conservatives. They are still trying to work with local religious and other leaders and organizations, but local county public health officials are not hopeful, as most of the rural unvaccinated here are anti-vax, not vaccine hesitant.

 I remember early in in the pandemic when public health care workers tried to go door to door in MN to offer testing and ask and answer questions, including very close to where I grew up. It generally worked fine except in some rural areas where they met a great deal of hostility and racism, so they had to stop.

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I think that trust us definitely an issue and there are certainly valid and understandable reasons for that mistrust. But I also think it’s important to keep in mind whether we are talking about covid vaccines or the “stolen election” or many other things  that people both inside and outside our country are working very hard to manufacture and amplify both discord and distrust. Those outside the country of course want us weakened as much as possible and divided rather than united. Those inside are doing it for political and/or financial gain. It’s very sad to see so many leaders putting party before country and lying to those they were elected to serve and I honestly don’t see what will get us out of this downward spiral. A chance to unite our country after so many years of discord has sadly only amplified the divide.
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Harpymom said:

What are you defining as a "data drop"?  This sounds sadly like another Q trail.  

😂😂😂 FYI, just because I am leaning right doesn't mean I believe in Q. Please don't stereotype me because I don't believe that we had a fraud-free election.

I should have used data dump - when they release a large amount of votes

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3 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

re similarities, and differences, within socioeconomic class

This is true around here as well. There are overlap issues between the two groups around information, access, uncertainty about cost of vaccine, and within the immigrant community whether getting the vaccine could expose folks to deportation risk.

But there are YUGE differences as well. Starting with: the former group denies that COVID is real or a big deal; the second group does not. This has been VERY obvious and evident throughout the pandemic, in how the two groups have dealt with masking.  You can SEE the difference just walking around in communities with sizable minority populations.

The other YUGE difference is that the Hoaxer anti-vaxers, overwhelmingly white, *do not define themselves as part of a group that includes minorities.*  *They* don't self-identify as part of a "socioeconomic" class; they identify as "conservative" or "Christian" or "Republican" or "freedom fighters" or "patriots" etc.

That was the whole "economic angst" red herring we already fell for once.  The US really doesn't do socioeconomic solidarity across racial lines.

 

The original Warp Speed trials relied on volunteers. It's ethically tricky to do that with kids.

Yes.  At least around here, the "vaccine hesitant" group is also moderately covid safety cautious, at least within the confines of reasonable limitations when one lives in multi generational housing with multiple people working outside the home, etc.  They aren't going to look cautious to the folks here who have nobody leaving the house and groceries being delivered, but they are very much concerned about covid.  They are largely wearing masks and are fairly reluctant to send their kids back to in person school.  

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1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

I am sorry. I will erase. Did not mean to offend. It is just true in rural Texas more often than not.  I understand what you are saying that everyone is different, that is just what is playing out statistically.  I mean, I am a white Christian woman who supposedly should be for Trump.  I hate the man...ok Christians shouldn't hate... I didn't vote for him either time and have been a critic. I don't fit the sterotype in many ways.  Now rural California is probably different as is New Jersey. 

Again. I will erase. Did not mean to offend. 

No reason for you to erase.  People have a choice over whether they are going to be offended or not. 

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1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

I am sorry. I will erase. Did not mean to offend. It is just true in rural Texas more often than not.  I understand what you are saying that everyone is different, that is just what is playing out statistically.  I mean, I am a white Christian woman who supposedly should be for Trump.  I hate the man...ok Christians shouldn't hate... I didn't vote for him either time and have been a critic. I don't fit the sterotype in many ways.  Now rural California is probably different as is New Jersey. 

Again. I will erase. Did not mean to offend. 

If we start deleting anything posted that offends someone we won't be able to post much of anything at all, particularly in serious discussions of current topics. Your post was perfectly fine.

Edited by Pawz4me
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56 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

I am sorry. I will erase. Did not mean to offend. It is just true in rural Texas more often than not.  I understand what you are saying that everyone is different, that is just what is playing out statistically.  I mean, I am a white Christian woman who supposedly should be for Trump.  I hate the man...ok Christians shouldn't hate... I didn't vote for him either time and have been a critic. I don't fit the sterotype in many ways.  Now rural California is probably different as is New Jersey. 

Again. I will erase. Did not mean to offend. 

I admit I probably took it to personally. What I have always liked is that even though people on this forum have differing opinions it still doesn't turn into insults being hurtled back and forth. I commented on the Covid threads to make sure that I don't start to believe my own biases as facts. I find that when you only converse with those that have the same opinion, you end up with an echo chamber of positive reinforcement about your own opinions. I don't want that for myself.

In the Covid threads, I've noticed more and more subtle digs at those with differing opinions. Never enough to be a direct insult, but definitely implied. I roll my eyes and bite my tongue because I know I'm the odd man out.

On that note, no need to erase.

I'm going to step away from these threads for a few days.

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1 hour ago, TexasProud said:

I am sorry. I will erase. Did not mean to offend. It is just true in rural Texas more often than not.  I understand what you are saying that everyone is different, that is just what is playing out statistically.  I mean, I am a white Christian woman who supposedly should be for Trump.  I hate the man...ok Christians shouldn't hate... I didn't vote for him either time and have been a critic. I don't fit the sterotype in many ways.  Now rural California is probably different as is New Jersey. 

Again. I will erase. Did not mean to offend. 

34 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

No reason for you to erase.  People have a choice over whether they are going to be offended or not. 

25 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

If we start deleting anything posted that offends someone we won't be able to post much of anything at all, particularly in serious discussions of current topics. Your post was perfectly fine.

I completely agree. There is no need to delete. I needed to take my hangry self to have some lunch. 

Pretty sure the repeated subtle digs against everyone that doesn't want to race out and get the vaccine built up so when I read TexasProud post I took it as a personal attack. That's on me.

 

 

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6 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

They have surveyed rather informally in my town in which it looks like Mark and I, our college age son, grad school age son, and my mother are the only vaccinated people. Lots of homes with political and religious signage out that is anti-covid vaccine, and the one church in town actively campaigns against all covid protocols as well as the vaccine. There are about 200 people here. The hospital sent a medical van to do walk up vax because things are bit desperate in this part of the county.  No takers. What they gleaned from the conversations they did have or more to the point, the yelling of insults and slurs at the van, was that people here have been told it is "the mark of the beast" and they will go to hell if they take the vaccine. Others have said they think masks are "the mark". The church has pretty big influence even among non-church goers in town. We have been open about being pro-vaccine, pro-mask, anti-parties and big gatherings from the beginning on what little social media we have as well as our own yard signs so we are viewed as dangerous people. I have found that one of the single most damaging errant theologies that has invaded many evangelical and fundamentalist churches is what is this End Times Eschatology. It really does make them see a boogeyman around every single corner. So much paranoia.

Mom had measles and mumps as a kid, lost a cousin to polio. She remembers that measles ravaged her 5th grade class, and for the next two years they were all very sickly, weak, had a hard time putting weight back on, missed a ton of school, would lay down on the ground at recess instead of play, etc. The old country doctor told my grandparents that he saw this all the time in measles patients, some sort of post sickness syndrome that lasted a long time. Of course we now know measles has a tendency to wipe out a lot of immune system memory cells. She said mumps was the single most painful thing she has endured in life, and well, she has had some pretty bad injuries, and four surgeries so I think mumps must have been a pretty darn awful disease. To her, the prospect of long covid scares her more than dying of covid. Those measles and mumps memories never really waned. She is pretty damn mad at that town church right now!

Our county voted 73% R, 2% third party/independent, and 25% D in the 2020 election. It has 38.8% of eligible persons 12+ with a single dose of vaccine. My township went 23% D, exactly one third party vote, and the rest R. Many of the houses that had R signs on their lawns are the ones that have anti-vax signs and also have anti-masks in school signs. So I do believe that in this area, it very much does go along party lines, and church division. Our district representative in Lansing is an R and absolutely a total covid is just a mere common cold nutter. All of our county commissioners are R's, and they have called the medical director of our county health department a witch, a b$tch, a liar, a communist, and an evil wench - in public meetings and they do not fear reprisals for doing it. She has resigned effective Sept.1, and we are going into a Delta nightmare with no one at the helm. Everyone they have interviewed for the job has been rejected for believing covid is a thing to be reckoned with, and they do not want a real medical director, just someone to the fill the desk because the state says they are supposed to have one. EMS is on the brink of just quitting en masse and leaving the entire county without ambulance service and medics. Their contract is up for renegotiation, and the company says it is considering pulling out and not even bidding. There is no other service who operates in this county or even wants to do so because of these commissioners. But if the editorials in the two newspapers in the county are any indication of public sentiment, these idiots are hailed as heroes. 

 

I’d love to know the logistics of this…

Who is “They”? 

How did “They” informally survey?

How did “you” get the results?

Also…what do the anti-vaccine signs say? How many homes in your town have anti-vaccine signs?

Can you take a picture of such signs?

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16 minutes ago, rebot said:

I completely agree. There is no need to delete. I needed to take my hangry self to have some lunch. 

Pretty sure the repeated subtle digs against everyone that doesn't want to race out and get the vaccine built up so when I read TexasProud post I took it as a personal attack. That's on me.

 

 

She deletes stuff all the time. Don’t take it personally.

Granted, it is usually of a personal nature but it is usually bc she posts stuff then gets pushback and deletes.

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1 hour ago, rebot said:

😂😂😂 FYI, just because I am leaning right doesn't mean I believe in Q. Please don't stereotype me because I don't believe that we had a fraud-free election.

I should have used data dump - when they release a large amount of votes

There is a very profound difference between believing an election was not fraud free (it’s likely all large elections involve some degree of fraud whether intentional or not) and believing the election was stolen. It’s an established fact that the latter is not true. Of course people are always free to not believe a well established fact. But it’s important to think about who is benefiting from perpetuating that conspiracy theory/lie despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary and how deeply harmful and dangerous such tactics are to our democratic norms and institutions.

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3 hours ago, Frances said:

Yes, there have been links in this very thread where public health officials are doing exactly this in Denver and then bringing vaccines to the neighborhoods so that residents don’t have to spend large amounts of time on public transportation. There have been reports from all over the country about public health officials identifying low vaccination areas and then working with local organizations and leaders to see how they can best reach people where they are. And then in the process of talking to people at vaccination sites, they learn even more about the concerns and issues. 

However, the majority of this type of work seems to be in urban areas, at least from what I’ve read. Here, rural leaders and officials told public health officials that doing anything like going door to door would greatly backfire because of government mistrust among conservatives. They are still trying to work with local religious and other leaders and organizations, but local county public health officials are not hopeful, as most of the rural unvaccinated here are anti-vax, not vaccine hesitant.

 I remember early in in the pandemic when public health care workers tried to go door to door in MN to offer testing and ask and answer questions, including very close to where I grew up. It generally worked fine except in some rural areas where they met a great deal of hostility and racism, so they had to stop.

Memphis is as well, largely with the assistance and active involvement of groups that are regularly involved in community outreach, including some of the churches and ministries. There are also vaccines available for everyone at many of the back to school events in the community (there are multiple groups who provide backpacks of school supplies, school uniforms, haircuts, and other necessities in big, ongoing back to school events. Most of these have always had childhood vaccinations available and this year, are including COVID for teens and adults. 

 

 

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On 8/4/2021 at 11:46 PM, Ordinary Shoes said:

People are acting like a mandated vaccine is a brand new thing but come on. We're all parents here. How many times have we provided information about our kid's vaccine records? I keep a copy in our safe. 

I had to get the MMR when I was in grad school. The university required it and my mother couldn't find the records proving that I'd had it so I got it again. 

There are laws requiring some healthcare workers to be vaccinated. It's like this is brand new information for people. (I wish I could add the Phoebe "this is brand new information!" meme) 

 

The difference is that the Covid vaccines are not fully approved. They have Emergency use Authorization. Because of that:

 "FDA must ensure that recipients of the vaccine under an EUA are informed, to the extent practicable given the applicable circumstances, that FDA has authorized the emergency use of the vaccine, of the known and potential benefits and risks, the extent to which such benefits and risks are unknown, that they have the option to accept or refuse the vaccine, and of any available alternatives to the product." https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained

So we have employers requiring vaccines that the FDA says recipients must have the option to refuse.

Susan in TX

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16 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

The difference is that the Covid vaccines are not fully approved. They have Emergency use Authorization. Because of that:

 "FDA must ensure that recipients of the vaccine under an EUA are informed, to the extent practicable given the applicable circumstances, that FDA has authorized the emergency use of the vaccine, of the known and potential benefits and risks, the extent to which such benefits and risks are unknown, that they have the option to accept or refuse the vaccine, and of any available alternatives to the product." https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/vaccines/emergency-use-authorization-vaccines-explained

So we have employers requiring vaccines that the FDA says recipients must have the option to refuse.

Susan in TX

An employer can mandate red socks, which we can also refuse normally. But if that is a condition of working there, that's different. 

My understanding of the government related ones is it kicks in after the expected FDA full approval date. 

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6 hours ago, rebot said:

What I have always liked is that even though people on this forum have differing opinions it still doesn't turn into insults being hurtled back and forth.

I completely agree.  I like listening to right-leaning and fully right wing people here because I can learn and think with a new perspective.  We share a pretty out there lifestyle in homeschooling, and I find community even with people whose political beliefs I don't understand or agree with.

What I object to are conspiracy theories, whether about the election, the covid vaccines, masks, what have you.  There are plenty of conservatives on this board whom I very much respect.

Edited by Harpymom
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16 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I don't have time to go back and find it because I am way behind on this thread and just saw it briefly last night before I went to sleep....someone was posting several links explaining what operation warp speed actually entailed.  I would like to have those links....but anyway my question is why can't the same method be used for authorizing the vaccine for children?

I just wanted to add that in addition to them having to wait until after the trials had been done with adults first, the parts of the trials that could be accelerated largely already have been. They can’t and aren’t shortening any of the actual trial periods, so they have to wait for that to be done and for enough kids to be enrolled and for enough for them to reach the trial end point. Unfortunately, with schools about to open and so many with little mitigation, they may reach trial end point quite quickly now. I hadn’t been thinking about that before, but now that I do, it means that the timeline could end up being quicker than they thought, if there is a lot of illness among children this Fall 😔

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On 7/24/2021 at 2:32 AM, Scarlett said:

I had a 72 year old female customer tell me yesterday that she got vaccinated.  She told me she is not one to believe everything the government tells her but she can see clearly this virus is real.  She said some of her friends are saying, 'well you don't know the long term effects of the vaccine'.  She said she replied, 'well, I know the effects of Covid!  People are dying all around us!'  

My mom has a niece that we really don't know.....she is hooked up with some extreme religious group....She is so crazy if I was mom I would block her.  Mom posted a nice little meme about getting the vaccine for the vulnerable among us.  The niece replies 'Complete lies and propaganda!!'  Then below that 'the news is out!  45K die within 3 days of getting the vaccine.'    I am normally very hands off on FB stuff, but I replied below that....'no.  Just....no.'  She responded 'The truth will come out soon!'  Ugh.  

And honestly if you are 71 long term effects are not that important.  My mother has had both.  I just got the text to say I should book this week although I should have been eligible months ago.  The flu vaccine aS delayed this year though so I only got that a month ago and you need already two weeks between.

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17 hours ago, pinball said:

I’d love to know the logistics of this…

Who is “They”? 

How did “They” informally survey?

How did “you” get the results?

Also…what do the anti-vaccine signs say? How many homes in your town have anti-vaccine signs?

Can you take a picture of such signs?

The local hospital in conjunction with our county health department. They had the mobile van and tried to ask people what their concerns were about the vaccine. I watched them on my street being screamed at by others just hurling insults. So informal. They tried to make contact, this is what happened. There was the medical director for the county, two nurses, and a doctor. I have to admit, small county but I did not recognize the name of the doctor. We don't have that many out here so my guess is he came from outside the area, but that is just guess.

And no, I do not feel comfortable going up to already hostile people's properties to take photos to post here. This area is a hair trigger temper zone. You are free to not believe me. However, if the church puts up another anti-vax or anti-mask message on their marquee - currently they are advertising the 50th anniversary of the founding - I would be willing to take a photo of that and post it.

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3 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

The local hospital in conjunction with our county health department. They had the mobile van and tried to ask people what their concerns were about the vaccine. I watched them on my street being screamed at by others just hurling insults. So informal. They tried to make contact, this is what happened. There was the medical director for the county, two nurses, and a doctor. I have to admit, small county but I did not recognize the name of the doctor. We don't have that many out here so my guess is he came from outside the area, but that is just guess.

And no, I do not feel comfortable going up to already hostile people's properties to take photos to post here. This area is a hair trigger temper zone. You are free to not believe me. However, if the church puts up another anti-vax or anti-mask message on their marquee - currently they are advertising the 50th anniversary of the founding - I would be willing to take a photo of that and post it.

We had a mobile van come to our neighborhood (I'm in a mobile home park). It was a very windy day the day they were here, and their sign blew down the road. My DD, who was out for a walk, picked it up and set it back up for them. The person working the van said thanks. The man, who was in the house across the street told her, "You just helped them do the devil's work. You're going to hell, Missy." 

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8 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

The local hospital in conjunction with our county health department. They had the mobile van and tried to ask people what their concerns were about the vaccine. I watched them on my street being screamed at by others just hurling insults. So informal. They tried to make contact, this is what happened. There was the medical director for the county, two nurses, and a doctor. I have to admit, small county but I did not recognize the name of the doctor. We don't have that many out here so my guess is he came from outside the area, but that is just guess.

And no, I do not feel comfortable going up to already hostile people's properties to take photos to post here. This area is a hair trigger temper zone. You are free to not believe me. However, if the church puts up another anti-vax or anti-mask message on their marquee - currently they are advertising the 50th anniversary of the founding - I would be willing to take a photo of that and post it.

What do the signs SAY?

And how many houses in your town HAVE anti-vaccine signs on their lawn?

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7 minutes ago, pinball said:

….also how did YOU find out those results? That your family was the only vaccinated?

I walked up to the truck to thank them for their service and for trying. I showed them my family's vax cards and my mom did the same. The doctor looked us in the face and appeared to be very serious when he said, I am pretty sure you guys are the only ones.

Maybe his perception was not accurate. I took it seriously.

The neighbors on all four sides of us have anti mask or anti vax signs. They have become increasingly hostile since the election so we do not interact. There are others in the town. It is small and compact so if I drop something at the post office or have to leave town, it is easy to see. But I am not driving around and taking photos of people's lawns when these folks already have shown aggressive verbal behavior.

You tend to jump on any post I make. You are free not to believe. People share their observations of where they live all the time. I have numerous times clarified that it is the area where I live and the effect of the influence of the local church and not extrapolated to this being the cases everywhere. Take or leave it. I don't care. But I am also busy today and nor coming back to volley with you all the time.

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My county is similar to @Faith-manor's, although perhaps not quite that extreme. People can deny all they want, but these places and people exist. I have no doubt that there are young, urban Dems who are vaccine hesitant. I don't personally know any, but I don't doubt they exist. The more rural, conservative Christian vaccine resistant, science denying demographic . . those I know personally and can attest to their existence.

Edited by Pawz4me
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On 8/6/2021 at 12:35 AM, popmom said:

I have not read most of this thread, so I apologize if this seems completely random at this point in the thread. I came across a tweet from someone I respect addressing this issue. I remembered seeing the title to this thread, so I thought I’d share his perspective. It’s just one tweet. He is a professor at King’s College in NYC. I’ve followed him for years. I’m not saying I agree with him all the time, but he always makes me think deeply.

I subscribe to The Economist, so it was interesting to me to see his take on this article.

“This is about class folks. This isn’t about Trump. Look at the charts. It’s so obviously about class but we don’t want to admit it. Lower class, Trump-hating blacks, are just as anti-Covid vaccine as lower class pro-Trump poor whites. These cultural overlaps are centuries old!”

 

That is what is actually going on.  And all over the world, people who don't trust the government are also very cautious.

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23 hours ago, Scarlett said:

This is a side point, but it always makes me twitchy when I hear these arguments that 'educated' people are doing such and so.  I have a high school diploma.   Definitely not educated.  But I do know how to read.  I don't get it.  Why does having a degree make you more likely to get the vaccine?

Well Scarlett, I considered my father in law who never even finished high school to be educated-- he was quite intelligent and a self taught learner. I am very conscious that brick and mortar education matters less than the willingness and eagerness to learn.  

 

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10 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I walked up to the truck to thank them for their service and for trying. I showed them my family's vax cards and my mom did the same. The doctor looked us in the face and appeared to be very serious when he said, I am pretty sure you guys are the only ones.

Maybe his perception was not accurate. I took it seriously.

The neighbors on all four sides of us have anti mask or anti vax signs. They have become increasingly hostile since the election so we do not interact. There are others in the town. It is small and compact so if I drop something at the post office or have to leave town, it is easy to see. But I am not driving around and taking photos of people's lawns when these folks already have shown aggressive verbal behavior.

You tend to jump on any post I make. You are free not to believe. People share their observations of where they live all the time. I have numerous times clarified that it is the area where I live and the effect of the influence of the local church and not extrapolated to this being the cases everywhere. Take or leave it. I don't care. But I am also busy today and nor coming back to volley with you all the time.

I literally asked CAN you take pictures…if you can’t, say no.

there is another poster who posts pics of sculpture installations at her neighbors…and posters will say “we need a picture!” when there’s changes or updates.

So it is not UNUSUAL here, on this board, when someone posts about strange stuff on people’s lawns to ask for a picture. 
 

Also, before I even asked “CAN…”  I asked…what do they say? How many?

Your post shocked/surprised other posters than me! I just asked for details. I’m a curious person. Shrug. 

Im surprised it was safe enough for you to even approach the truck with your vaccination cards given the further details. That’s the last thing that would occur to me if I was afraid of my anti-vaccine neighbors! That was pretty brave! 
 

 

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On 8/6/2021 at 8:40 AM, Scarlett said:

I don't have time to go back and find it because I am way behind on this thread and just saw it briefly last night before I went to sleep....someone was posting several links explaining what operation warp speed actually entailed.  I would like to have those links....but anyway my question is why can't the same method be used for authorizing the vaccine for children?

 

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14 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

My county is similar to @Faith-manor's, although perhaps not quite that extreme. People can deny all they want, but these places and people exist. I have no doubt that there are young, urban Dems who are vaccine hesitant. I don't personally know any, but I don't doubt they exist. The more rural, conservative Christian vaccine resistant, science denying demographic . . those I know personally and can attest to their existence.

You just had creekland’s name in here, didn’t you? 
 

I just clicked on her name from your post…she hasn’t been here since last year.

I was hoping she came back

 

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23 hours ago, Scarlett said:

Oh I see.  That makes sense. I was thinking about the part where all of the red tape was fast tracked and all the steps were done at the same time.  

That is true too. But the whole slowdown on the get the third booster when they knew by April that a lot of us immunocompromised needed a third booster and it took until now to say yes, you do but you still can't do it == I think it has to do with the EAU versus full approval and they really should be doing that since we have data from Dec onwards of vaccine efficiency.  But government bureacracy ===it is a real thing.

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23 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

I agree. I think that changing family culture from one generation to the next is very challenging. And I am not sure that it happens all that often. I think some members of the next generation simply break off and don't look back, starting a new family culture of their own, and often ostracized by the family in which they were raised. I actually nothing that is easier, than standing up to family for what one believes is right or necessary and trying to change it from within and that includes other things like emotional abuse and manipulation, alcoholism, etc.

My son in law is doing that and it is extremely difficult.  In fact, one big reason my dd  is hesitating with getting pregnant is because of his entire family=-both near and extended.  She just really doesn't want to bring children around the racism, etc.

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15 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

My county is similar to @Faith-manor's, although perhaps not quite that extreme. People can deny all they want, but these places and people exist. I have no doubt that there are young, urban Dems who are vaccine hesitant. I don't personally know any, but I don't doubt they exist. The more rural, conservative Christian vaccine resistant, science denying demographic . . those I know personally and can attest to their existence.

Oh, and to address the part about where you live and where Faith lives and the people…

just because I asked for details doesn’t mean I’m denying anything or doubt they exist.

 

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21 hours ago, rebot said:

You should probably also include that although there were six defendants in the case there were also twelve FBI informants. There is currently discussions of entrapment and what role the FBI actually played.

No doubt, this was wrong anyway you look at it, but you left out an important aspect of the investigation.

Yeah, I am really not a fan of the whole let's encourage people to violate the law and then get' em.  

 

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51 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

I walked up to the truck to thank them for their service and for trying. I showed them my family's vax cards and my mom did the same. The doctor looked us in the face and appeared to be very serious when he said, I am pretty sure you guys are the only ones.

Maybe his perception was not accurate. I took it seriously.

The neighbors on all four sides of us have anti mask or anti vax signs. They have become increasingly hostile since the election so we do not interact. There are others in the town. It is small and compact so if I drop something at the post office or have to leave town, it is easy to see. But I am not driving around and taking photos of people's lawns when these folks already have shown aggressive verbal behavior.

You tend to jump on any post I make. You are free not to believe. People share their observations of where they live all the time. I have numerous times clarified that it is the area where I live and the effect of the influence of the local church and not extrapolated to this being the cases everywhere. Take or leave it. I don't care. But I am also busy today and nor coming back to volley with you all the time.

I am really sorry that you live there.  It sounds truly awful and scary.

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40 minutes ago, pinball said:

You just had creekland’s name in here, didn’t you? 
 

I just clicked on her name from your post…she hasn’t been here since last year.

I was hoping she came back

 

Yes. I messed up the tag and went back and fixed it. I usually don't pay much attention to posters' names when I'm reading, and in my mind I often confuse Creekland and Faith-Manor. My bad!

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We have a high vaccination rate, decent masking even without mandates and even around here I see "Unmask the Children" signs.  

Given the public information about vaccination rates in the general area Faith-Manor is, I don't find it at all hard to believe that she's seeing signs.  

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Example signs (most are not from my area but I've seen pictures):

"Sacrifice the Weak

I will not take the mark of the beast (vaccine chip)          - words in parentheses were on the sign

Give me liberty or Give me Covid 19

That face mask you were duped into wearing symbolizes you losing your freedom of speech

Freedom over fear

Vaccination is Genocide."

 

I could go on but it makes me sick to my stomach. 

 

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28 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Example signs (most are not from my area but I've seen pictures):

"Sacrifice the Weak

I will not take the mark of the beast (vaccine chip)          - words in parentheses were on the sign

Give me liberty or Give me Covid 19

That face mask you were duped into wearing symbolizes you losing your freedom of speech

Freedom over fear

Vaccination is Genocide."

 

I could go on but it makes me sick to my stomach. 

 

Wow. I had no idea. I live in a state with one of the lowest vaccine uptake. I’m surprised I haven’t seen such things here. 

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19 hours ago, TexasProud said:

It is going to get so incredibly bad in my area.  Turns out 75 percent of the people over 55 have the shot, but only 13 percent of 16-55 are vaccinated.  Wow.  Just wow. The hospital number are really going up. 

I suspect that's what the vaccine stats look like where I live, but I have no confirmation of that. 

51 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Example signs (most are not from my area but I've seen pictures):

"Sacrifice the Weak

I will not take the mark of the beast (vaccine chip)          - words in parentheses were on the sign

Give me liberty or Give me Covid 19

That face mask you were duped into wearing symbolizes you losing your freedom of speech

Freedom over fear

Vaccination is Genocide."

 

I could go on but it makes me sick to my stomach. 

 

This seems like a good place to drop this article. I don't agree with all of the author's statements or conclusions, but the overall tone really captures how people near me think and talk about Covid. https://timjwise.medium.com/covid-anti-vaxxers-arent-a-maga-death-cult-it-s-worse-than-that-16d74186e46b

Quote

The truth is worse — and here I am speaking specifically of those who are resisting obtaining the vaccine, rather than those whose access is limited by location, poverty or issues with mobility to a vaccine center...

These are people who didn’t and don’t want to die. They simply thought there was no way they would.
To them, COVID was a virus of the big city and those who live there, of old people, or persons with multiple pre-existing conditions (of which they didn’t believe their cholesterol-lined arteries and COPD qualified as examples).
It was only killing the weak.
And they were strong — cowboy strong, to be precise, or at least Sturgis motorcycle ridin’ strong.
High on a delusional mix of rugged individualism, toxic masculine bravado, pseudoscientific faith in vitamin supplements, and a belief that God would pull them through, they were convinced they were safe.
Only others were at risk — the less good people.
The ones who don’t do CrossFit, or go to a megachurch, or better still, a CrossFit in a megachurch.
The ones who don’t settle for the “power of positive thinking,” like FOX host Jesse Watters, who insisted that’s all he would need should he become infected.
The ones who place their faith in science rather than a Bible study group.
And for people like that? Who cares? To the right, those people don’t count.
Indifference to the suffering of others is why Trump’s minions wouldn’t mask. They didn’t care that they might infect people, despite being asymptomatic.
When you would tell them repeatedly that wearing a mask was less for the wearer than for others, they shrugged. If other folks are at risk, they should stay home and let the rest of us get back to the gym, the hairdresser, concerts, movies, and tailgate parties before the big game. I mean, this giant foam finger isn’t gonna wave itself.
Their freedom to do as they pleased was more important than other people’s lives.
Suicidal people don’t act or think that way. Homicidal people do.

I will add the corollary of how most of the people who are talking like this near me also say things like, "If I die (or so and so dies), they'll be in heaven, and that's better anyway." No matter that most of these people would be scarlet with rage if someone pointed out to them that they believe that babies who are aborted go to heaven, so they shouldn't spend so much time trying to prevent abortions. (I am pro-life, and I can't believe that so many of these folks just don't care about people already outside the womb.)

 

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48 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Example signs (most are not from my area but I've seen pictures):

"Sacrifice the Weak

I will not take the mark of the beast (vaccine chip)          - words in parentheses were on the sign

Give me liberty or Give me Covid 19

That face mask you were duped into wearing symbolizes you losing your freedom of speech

Freedom over fear

Vaccination is Genocide."

 

I could go on but it makes me sick to my stomach. 

 

Yeah, I’ve seen signs too; I have an idea of what anti-vaccines signs say. LOL

also what pro-vaccine signs say!

Why is it such an issue to ask what the signs say on Faith’s neighbors’ lawns? It’s not like I asked for her address or phone number.

She said she is surrounded on FOUR SIDES with signs! She must see them every day! I’d have them memorized by now. 
 

the weird stuff stands out. Maybe that’s just me?!

There was a homemade an anti (politician) sign near me…it said an inauguration date and then “the day America died”

There was also a homemade anti-hospital sign near me…it said “XYZ Hospital Kills.” The guy’s wife died there.

There was also an anti-road crew sign near me…it said “XYZ City Road Crew ripped my mirror off. They need to pay $$$$$”

 

 

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5 hours ago, pinball said:

What do the signs SAY?

And how many houses in your town HAVE anti-vaccine signs on their lawn?

I haven’t seen any on lawns here (although I wouldn’t expect them in my neighborhood) and I don’t regularly go to other neighborhoods. But we have a very large Farmer’s Market here every Saturday and every week the anti vax people have a tent set up across from it with signs and fliers and they post people at each intersection with signs. I don’t remember exact slogans but words like poison, experimental, evil, death, guinea pig, devil, etc. are used. Some of the signs have the skull and cross bones, others have rats with poison bottles and needles. The group trends elderly.

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57 minutes ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Example signs (most are not from my area but I've seen pictures):

"Sacrifice the Weak

I will not take the mark of the beast (vaccine chip)          - words in parentheses were on the sign

Give me liberty or Give me Covid 19

That face mask you were duped into wearing symbolizes you losing your freedom of speech

Freedom over fear

Vaccination is Genocide."

 

I could go on but it makes me sick to my stomach. 

 

It is sickening.  The “Sacrifice the Weak” sign is chilling.  It literally makes me feel ill. I’ve seen it here (mid-Atlantic, in a mostly anti-vax/anti-mask county of an otherwise fairly high rate vaccination state).  It was at an anti-mask rally. That particular sign always brings back painful memories of trying to send DS to school in a district where parents literally stood with similar signs and screamed that their kids must be allowed peanut butter in the classroom, and that my kid shouldn’t even have the option of a peanut free *table* … because “rights.” It feels like the same people, different time period. I don’t know where these people were raised but the lack of compassion and caring is deeply troubling. 

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Just now, Frances said:

I haven’t seen any on lawns here (although I wouldn’t expect them in my neighborhood) and I don’t regularly go to other neighborhoods. But we have a very large Farmer’s Market here every Saturday and every week the anti vax people have a tent set up across from it with signs and fliers and they post people at each intersection with signs. I don’t remember exact slogans but words like poison, experimental, evil, death, guinea pig, devil, etc. are used. Some of the signs have the skull and cross bones, others have rats with poison bottles and needles. The group trends elderly.

I think it takes a certain personality to put a *sign on your own lawn* that is quite different than protest signs at a protest when you have other people surrounding you.

Lawn signs and bumper stickers are targets, so to speak.

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7 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I suspect that's what the vaccine stats look like where I live, but I have no confirmation of that. 

This seems like a good place to drop this article. I don't agree with all of the author's statements or conclusions, but the overall tone really captures how people near me think and talk about Covid. https://timjwise.medium.com/covid-anti-vaxxers-arent-a-maga-death-cult-it-s-worse-than-that-16d74186e46b

I will add the corollary of how most of the people who are talking like this near me also say things like, "If I die (or so and so dies), they'll be in heaven, and that's better anyway." No matter that most of these people would be scarlet with rage if someone pointed out to them that they believe that babies who are aborted go to heaven, so they shouldn't spend so much time trying to prevent abortions. (I am pro-life, and I can't believe that so many of these folks just don't care about people already outside the womb.)

 

That sounds like many of the people I know who aren't vaccinating. 

I hear so many people say things like, "if God wants to take you, he will" and I want to scream. That's not Christianity! Where does that attitude come from? These people, of course, go to doctors if they get sick. They receive chemotherapy if they have cancer. They all take prescription medications. 

What I worry about is that this is an indication that these kinds of people will become more resistant to mainstream medicine in the future. I had started hearing people talk about alternative cancer treatments at our old crazy church before COVID and most of them were already anti-vaxxers. 

 

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5 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

Well Scarlett, I considered my father in law who never even finished high school to be educated-- he was quite intelligent and a self taught learner. I am very conscious that brick and mortar education matters less than the willingness and eagerness to learn.  

 

Same with my dad who had a few technical college classes. Although he struggled with writing and spelling in school (likely due to an undiagnosed learning disability based on the diagnoses of some of his grandchildren), he was extremely well read and always eager to learn more. He was incredibly skilled in multiple trades and in retirement was an adjunct technical technical college instructor and hired by several companies to do on-site training. 

Because he wanted to be a lector in church but wasn’t comfortable speaking in front of a group, he joined Toastmasters. He was later elected to the School Board and in his second term, elected president of it. 

He was someone who could talk with and get along with anyone from any walk of life. Pallbearers at his funeral ranged from the president of the local bank and a retired school superintendent to a barge captain, a farmer, and a welder. 

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7 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

What I worry about is that this is an indication that these kinds of people will become more resistant to mainstream medicine in the future. I had started hearing people talk about alternative cancer treatments at our old crazy church before COVID and most of them were already anti-vaxxers. 

I think some will and some won't. They seem to have roped Covid off as a special exhibit in their minds. A few do this with the flu shot as well. They think that any shot that doesn't confer 100% guarantee against illness is dumb, and natural immunity is better (while not realizing that even with something like the measles shot, their odds aren't 100%). 

I think it's uncommon for people to really understand how vaccines work even if they are pro-vaccine. I know some of what I know because of a DH in healthcare, and even then, I have picked up more because of discussions on the boards. The only conception most people have is that getting a vaccine is supposed to always be in place of getting the disease. That's it. 

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