Is There Security At Your Place of Worship?

[MysteryJen]

Catholic parish with large homeless outreach programs in downtown of a largish city, within blocks of the major shelters. Cameras, buzzer to get into offices, and uniformed representative from the Sheriff at night and during services. 

 

Growing up, small Lutheran church in college town, no security.

[JoJosMom]

The building has a burglar alarm/fire alarm system, and there is a system for checking children in and out of Sunday School.  There is no security system in place for services, but we live in an area where a large percentage of the men (and likely many of the women, as well) are likely carrying concealed.

 

Edited to add: Largish (for the area) Protestant church.

[Chris in VA]

Historic colonial parish --alarm system, but no security.

 

We do have a large contingent of active and retired military. I am completely convinced they'd handle any emergency.

 

We once had a suggestion from a parishoner that we have a "no guns in the church" policy, but that was quickly...shot down...because if it became public, it'd be like putting a target on our backs, according to the folks who were pretty adamant about rejecting that idea.

[vonfirmath]

WE have several layers of security at our church. No uniformed guards though.

 

 

We once had a suggestion from a parishoner that we have a "no guns in the church" policy, but that was quickly...shot down...because if it became public, it'd be like putting a target on our backs, according to the folks who were pretty adamant about rejecting that idea.

 

The church I went to as a child, where I was saved and baptized, people were encouraged to carry at church. Every once in a while we'd come out after church and there would be bullet holes in a car window. At least once that I can recall (maybe twice? Don't remember) someone shot through the stained glass windows while we were in church. Didn't hit anyone, thankfully.

[LizzyBee]

As a child, my family went to Catholic and Lutheran churches. I've also attended the churches of numerous other Christian denominations, and I do not recall ever seeing any sort of security guard/doors/glass/cameras, etc. in place. It always seemed to me that Catholic/Christian churches were wide open for visitors. Granted, this was several decades ago, so I understand that things may be different today.

 

The first time I set foot on the grounds of a synagogue, the first thing that struck me was the conspicuous level of security. I converted to Judaism over a decade ago, and it now seems to me that tight security at a synagogue/temple is pretty much the norm in most places.  

 

I was thinking about it today because we have a homeschool PE class that is near the San Diego Islamic Center. Every mosque I have ever seen in the U.S. has the same tight security that we have at Jewish places of worship.

 

So, I am curious... Does your place of worship have security? 

 

Our church doesn't have any visible security, but we have some police officers and CC permit holders who carry. The staff has talked and planned for contingencies, but it's low-key and not something that's been discussed with the congregation at large. The children's ministry requires background checks for all employees and volunteers, and if a known sex offender attends, someone is assigned to surveillance duty while the person is on church grounds, and of course, the person is prohibited from going into the children's ministry building.

[HRAAB]

Not in the actual church, but there are security cameras by the classrooms and offices. All doors are locked except for main front doors during religious ed. there have been a couple of incidents with people wandering and causing problems with one resulting in an assualt. This is a large Catholic church my girls attend.

[TechWife]

I find it interesting people are focusing on "during services".  that might be when you get a crazy person being disruptive, but thieves come in the dark of night.  arsonists come during the dark of night. crazy people armed with guns (a case in seattle. shooter was muslim yelling allah ahkbar while shooting up a jewish day center - and killing people - but authorities claimed he was mentally ill. oh- and he grabbed someone on her way in and held a gun to her head until she opened the door.) come any time people are present - whether it's during worship time or not.

 

This is why we have security cameras and an alarm system. The fire alarm is built into the building as a central system as well. Our biggest problem has been items being stolen from cars. Years ago, before we locked the unused wings during the week, we had a problem with tv theft during the weekdays. Since we locked the wings up, that hasn't been an issue. Our church is as secure as it can be 24/7. At least as secure as it can be without hiring armed guards. 

[wonderchica]

I attend a large church that is very involved in missions in dangerous countries and rescuing trafficking victims. We have members with security backgrounds who have ear pieces and keep an eye on things throughout services. I think the most exciting thing they've dealt with was a mentally ill person who tried to run onstage to sing. Plus it's the South, I'm sure our congregation is generally well armed.

[Southern Ivy]

I attend a large church. Average attendance between the two locations is 9,000. So, we definitely have security. 
Every Sunday, we have the county sheriffs in attendance to 1) direct traffic and 2) provide security. We also have off-duty police officers who attend our church and they have been known to carry.
There is also additional (unarmed) security in the children's area.

[Shellydon]

When I attended a large church with a well known pastor, yes.  There was security present all the time.

[chocolatechip]

Orthodox. No security during services/when people are on the premises. 

 

We have an alarm system for when everyone is gone.

[indigomama]

My DH is a pastor and he has said that every church we have attended has people in each service that the staff knows are carrying. This is from very small 100 people congregations to 3000 + congregations. I was really surprised, so I would guess that even those of you that are saying "no" there isn't any security, there probably is.

 

Our current church has those concealed carrying and security cameras, as well as most doors being locked during the typical week day, except one main door by the office.

[ElizabethB]

Off duty police officers are conceal carrying if they attend your services. That's a level of security that you may not know about.

And certain parts of the country, they may feel more comfortable announcing this to friends and family...

[JennyD]

Our synagogue has cameras and a buzzer to get inside. Also, a plain clothed security guard is on premises during all services and Hebrew school days. 

 

 

At our synagogue, too.  I think it's pretty SOP these days.  And the local day school has even more tightly controlled access, as does the JCC.  

 

A mosque here was firebombed a while back and a few years ago some guy unsuccessfully tried to firebomb a house where he thought a rabbi lived.  Our previous synagogue, in another city, was vandalized, along with some other synagogues in the area.  Vandalism is unfortunately not a terribly unusual occurrence for Jewish institutions, and so I didn't really think that much about it   Until one day when I took my then-toddler our for a walk, only to discover that a whole bunch of streets nearby were blocked off and there were a zillion police vehicles around.. Turns out out the guy who had vandalized the synagogues was building pipe bombs in his apartment and in fact had a whole arsenal in there.  The whole thing was bizarre -- he was arrested after he called 911 to report that he had accidentally shot himself in the hand -- and at one point his lawyer said that the guy was actually himself Jewish.

 

After that event our then-synagogue hired a full-time security guard and launched a renewed push for being careful about access -- e..g, introducing yourself to the security guard, not holding the door for people you don't know, etc.  The institutions we're at now emphasize the same policies.  

 

[idnib]

There's no security at our mosque. We just assume the FBI is there.  ;)

[Loowit]

The only place we attended that I know for sure was at a Christian and Missionary Alliance church where there was a known threat against the pastor and youth pastor by a former member.  The board put a plan in place to keep member and pastors safe.  We had a few armed off duty police officers that attended and kept an eye on things.  Nothing ever happened. 

[PuddleJumper1]

Our church (non-denominational) has security guards during any activity. However, they are men of the church who make up the team. No weapons, no cameras etc.

[Guest]

There's no security at our mosque. We just assume the FBI is there. ;)

Okay, this made me snort!

[Delighted3]

We go to a smallish church in a large metro area.  Men from the congregation take turns watching the parking lot during services and any number of men in the church may be armed as per the conceal carry law in our state. 

Joy

[QueenCat]

There is an alarm system so that if someone tries to enter when the church is closed, the police are notified. And the doors are locked when the secretary is there by herself. People have to be buzzed in during that time period.

[SeaConquest]

The concealed carry issue among Christians is one that I had not considered. I don't know a single Jew who has weapons in their home, yet alone on their person in their daily life. Among the Orthodox, who are generally the most politically conservative of Jews, you would not find people carrying weapons on their person, as it would be problematic during Shabbat and certain holidays. It's an interesting cultural difference.  

[Guest]

The concealed carry issue among Christians is one that I had not considered. I don't know a single Jew who has weapons in their home, yet alone on their person in their daily life. Among the Orthodox, who are generally the most politically conservative of Jews, you would not find people carrying weapons on their person, as it would be problematic during Shabbat and certain holidays. It's an interesting cultural difference.

I think it is more regional. My Southern Baptist and Non Denom churches in San Diego certainly had neither security nor concealed carry (the permits are extremely difficulty to come by down there, which is a rant for another day). But now that I live in Alaska even a fair number of squishy, tree hugging types have guns on their person or in their home. Some is for defense against wild life, but some just happen to live in the part of town that makes it seem a good idea, according to them.

 

And of course, what you are raised in is what often seems normative. My kids just got back from the shooting range with daddy not two minutes ago. I, on the other hand, was terrified of firearms until adulthood when I moved up here.

 

I know the carrying at our church is less caution and more habit - we carry everywhere, not in case of maurading intruders ;)

[ElizabethB]

The concealed carry issue among Christians is one that I had not considered. I don't know a single Jew who has weapons in their home, yet alone on their person in their daily life. Among the Orthodox, who are generally the most politically conservative of Jews, you would not find people carrying weapons on their person, as it would be problematic during Shabbat and certain holidays. It's an interesting cultural difference.

It is not letting me multi quote right now, but it is mainly regional, like Arctic Mama said. In California, no one felt compelled to tell me they conceal carried to church. Since I am a military spouse and we homeschool, people in the rural Midwest and certain parts of the South and all of Texas but Austin (they probably do there but don't talk about it) feel compelled to tell us about their guns and that they carry everywhere, even church.

 

In Israel, it seemed like 1/4 of the population was armed at any time, it was a shock to go to McDonalds or the Mall and see people carrying all kinds of high powered weapons like they were nothing. The strongest argument, IMO, for guns comes not from the normal NRA arguments but from an organization that is called "Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership," they have a compelling chart showing the date of gun control and the date of Genocide in various countries, they argue that without gun control of the targeted groups, there could not have been Genocide.

 

Here is the chart:

 

http://jpfo.org/pdf02/genocide-chart.pdf

[Garga]

Yes. Conceal carry. They probably just look like ushers or greeters to people, but I know they are actually security. Most people don't know they are carrying. They just think they're there to make sure kids (toddlers) don't run out the door or something like that. I didn't know about the guns until they'd been there a couple of years and my husband became a church board member and then told me. It's not talked about.

 

The church has about 1000 members. Maybe it's a bigger church thing? And I really don't know why they're there specifically. Maybe there was an incident or something at one point. Dunno.

[Scarlett]

At my congregation back home (before we moved) we had a paranoid schizophrenic off his meds who was super scary.  He was finally told to stay away, but he was telling people in the community that he was coming for us with his guns.  :(  Our 'security' was that we stationed a man at the door and kept it locked during services.  I heard he was institutionalized so they probably aren't still doing that.  Very rural area...no real need for security.  None that I know of where I am now....also rural. 

[ElizabethB]

Not at any of the churches I've attended, either Catholic or non-Catholic.

Ellie, you are in Texas! They just didn't feel compelled to tell you about their guns. For some reason, people think I want to know about their guns.

[wonderchica]

To clarify, people who concealed carry to my church most likely aren't doing it out of caution of what may happen at church. They do it all the time. Heck, my state has open carry and I noticed a guy at Petsmart with a gun the other day. I doubt he was worried something might go down in the small animal aisle. A large percentage of our church is military, so I'm not particularly concerned.

[Katy]

Our current church, no.  But every nondenominational mega church I've ever been to had a huge security department, complete with multiple police detail at every service.  I guess people try to kill the pastors of large churches much more than you'd think.  And normally they're not disgruntled church members.  Usually they're complete strangers off the street.

[Spy Car]

I'm really stunned that people would carry firearms in a Church.

 

I'd have thought it would be considered extremely sacrilegious and be seen as an act of faithlessness.

 

Egad.

 

Bill 

[TechWife]

I'm really stunned that people would carry firearms in a Church.

 

I'd have thought it would be considered extremely sacrilegious and be seen as an act of faithlessness.

 

Egad.

 

Bill 

 

Well the last time I checked, Christians aren't bullet proof. If you're worried about being shot, many people want to shoot back if you could. I think concealed carry is an odd concept, though. I've never quite understood the point. I would think a visible firearm would be more of a deterrent in a public setting, but I admit I've never researched it. 

 

With the amount of money taken in during the Sunday offering, security is often a matter of practicality. While there are a good number of checks in the offering plate, a large amount of cash is usually there as well. 

[Spy Car]

Well the last time I checked, Christians aren't bullet proof. If you're worried about being shot, many people want to shoot back if you could. I think concealed carry is an odd concept, though. I've never quite understood the point. I would think a visible firearm would be more of a deterrent in a public setting, but I admit I've never researched it. 

 

With the amount of money taken in during the Sunday offering, security is often a matter of practicality. While there are a good number of checks in the offering plate, a large amount of cash is usually there as well. 

 

I'd have thought one would put ones faith in God, not in Smith and Wesson. 

 

Color me perplexed.  I mean are the "good Christians" going to gun down someone who tries to steal from the collection plate? Have we been reading the same Bible???

 

Bill

[happypamama]

Haven't seen it in any church around here, but IDK if my childhood church now has security or not; I'd have to ask my mom.  (Well, I know they do/did have an alarm system.)  The church I most recently attended in our area (tiny; under 100 people in attendance on Easter Sunday, nine of which were my family and my parents) is currently meeting in a fire hall while they build a building, so I assume there are alarms and such for times when the building is empty.  (But we also live in a super conceal carry friendly state and area, so it's entirely possible that there are many people attending who are conceal carrying, police officer or not.)

 

(We also have almost zero violent crime around here, fwiw.)

[mamajag]

I attend a very beautiful, historic Catholic parish, and we try to keep the doors open and available as much as possible. They have done a great job of hiding the cameras that allow the office to keep an eye on our basilica and provide evidence if someone does something illegal.

[TechWife]

I'd have thought one would put ones faith in God, not in Smith and Wesson. 

 

Color me perplexed.  I mean are the "good Christians" going to gun down someone who tries to steal from the collection plate? Have we been reading the same Bible???

 

Bill

 

I don't know Bill, I'm not sure what you read, if anything. There are people who consider cook books to be "bibles." 

 

The gun is a deterrent, Bill. Most people would think twice about mugging an usher if he were accompanied by an armed officer as he take the offering from the worship center to the office. That supposes the gun is visible, like I said before, I don't understand concealed carry. I think it's weird, along with this nation's fascination with guns in the first place. There is nothing in Christianity that opposes deterring a crime or being able to protect others when/if one occurs. 

 

No, I don't think most Christians are going to "gun down" someone who steals from a collection plate, Bill. I said security, not gang members. People who are trained law enforcement don't normally "gun down" people, and places that need this level of assistance do hire off duty officers, not use "rent a cops." 

 

I'm thinking that you have no idea how much money a large church receives on a Sunday morning. Believe me, you wouldn't want to walk around with that much money, and until transporter technology is developed, the ushers do have to walk it to the office. 

[Spy Car]

I don't know Bill, I'm not sure what you read, if anything. There are people who consider cook books to be "bibles." 

 

The gun is a deterrent, Bill. Most people would think twice about mugging an usher if he were accompanied by an armed officer as he take the offering from the worship center to the office. That supposes the gun is visible, like I said before, I don't understand concealed carry. I think it's weird, along with this nation's fascination with guns in the first place. There is nothing in Christianity that opposes deterring a crime or being able to protect others when/if one occurs. 

 

No, I don't think most Christians are going to "gun down" someone who steals from a collection plate, Bill. I said security, not gang members. People who are trained law enforcement don't normally "gun down" people, and places that need this level of assistance do hire off duty officers, not use "rent a cops." 

 

I'm thinking that you have no idea how much money a large church receives on a Sunday morning. Believe me, you wouldn't want to walk around with that much money, and until transporter technology is developed, the ushers do have to walk it to the office. 

 

I don't think I've been reading "the Cookbook Bible."

 

This found familiar?:

 

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’  But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.  And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.  And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.  Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

 

I'm frankly disappointed by the hypocrisy.   

 

Bill

[maize]

I've not seen security at an LDS meeting houses beyond grounds enclosures/barred windows in certain areas (where such precautions are common), but some LDS temples have security guards, and most (all?) have surrounding fences or walls with gates that can be closed and locked. I am aware of at least one situation where a lockdown became necessary and people were not able to leave for many hours because of security threats.

 

I am aware of several instances in which LDS buildings were vandalized or subjected to arson.

[poppy]

People in areas where everyone carries guns feel like they need to carry guns.  Funny how that works!

 

I know, I know, it's a "cultural difference". 

 

No guns in my church that I'm aware of, and my denomination has a strong position on strong gun control. (But not one on individuals carrying at the church).    I don't know what the local synagogues and mosques do.

[ktgrok]

I don't think I've been reading "the Cookbook Bible."

 

This found familiar?:

 

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’  But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.  And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.  And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.  Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

 

I'm frankly disappointed by the hypocrisy.   

 

Bill

My understanding is these verses have to do with obedience to the ruling party, not petty theft. Giving to someone that begs or borrows is different than letting someone steal. I do not think it is hypocritical to take steps to protect the offering that will go to help the less fortunate, and will in fact be given to the beggers. That said, I don't think people conceal carry in church to prevent issues at church specifically. Those that conceal carry generally always conceal carry unless the rules of the place they are at forbid it. They carry in church because they happen to be carrying, not because it is church.

[Cricket]

I don't think I've been reading "the Cookbook Bible."

 

This found familiar?:

 

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

 

I'm frankly disappointed by the hypocrisy.

 

Bill

It also says "Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends." It is not hypocritical for some in a church to put themselves between others and harm.

[TechWife]

I don't think I've been reading "the Cookbook Bible."

 

This found familiar?:

 

“You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’  But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.  And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.  And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.  Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

 

I'm frankly disappointed by the hypocrisy.   

 

Bill

 

You will see hypocrisy anywhere you look for it. I personally, am disappointed by the non-believers who love to use that verse yet don't live by it themselves. That, in itself, is hypocritical. 

 

That said, having security at a church is not a violation of these verses. 

 

I am pretty sure you don't understand how crime is deterred, Bill. You know, "I don't think I'm going to steal that because I might get shot." Like I said, I'm not talking about hiring gang members as guards. Also, I doubt any of these guards has ever been told to shoot someone over money. Usually, it's over, you know, life threatening issues. 

[Reefgazer]

No security, except at the associated preschool. We attend a Mainline Protestant church in a medium-size city in the south .

[FO4UR]

I'm really stunned that people would carry firearms in a Church.

 

I'd have thought it would be considered extremely sacrilegious and be seen as an act of faithlessness.

 

Egad.

 

Bill 

 

 

There have been a few crazy incidents in the past of people coming in off the street into a church service to inflict violence. The security measures, guns included, are to keep the congregation safe from those things.  Not to mention, there have been some pastors shot at in the pulpit.  At one church I attended, a man came into the preschool wing trying to take a child.  It was scary. If a gun will protect innocent people, so be it.

 

It's one thing to lay down my own life...quite another to risk the life of someone else when I could have protected them.

 

 

I'm mainstream protestant, and I've been to many churches. The big ones (over 1000) have had security from the parking lot to the children's wings to the hallways and the sanctuary. Often times, they are plain-clothed and conceal-carrying.  Believe me, the risks/benefits weigh heavily on the hearts of church leadership. We want to be open and free, and yet we don't want to risk the safety of those who come.

 

 

Honestly, the religious/political climate is becoming more and more unsettled in the USA. Regardless of the religion or denomination, I think it's important to keep worshipers safe within their house of worship.

[JoJosMom]

I'm really stunned that people would carry firearms in a Church.

 

I'd have thought it would be considered extremely sacrilegious and be seen as an act of faithlessness.

 

Egad.

 

Bill 

nm

Edited April 12, 2015 by Susan Wise Bauer
In no way acceptable.

[ktgrok]

I'm really stunned that people would carry firearms in a Church.

 

I'd have thought it would be considered extremely sacrilegious and be seen as an act of faithlessness.

 

Egad.

 

Bill 

 

It's not an act of faithlessness anymore than wearing a seatbelt on the way to church is. Neither is a lack of faith in God, but an acknowledgement of the ways of man.

[ByGrace3]

I'd have thought one would put ones faith in God, not in Smith and Wesson.

 

Color me perplexed. I mean are the "good Christians" going to gun down someone who tries to steal from the collection plate? Have we been reading the same Bible???

 

Bill

No one is planning to "gun down" anyone for stealing .... However my husband is almost almost concealed carrying and he would have no problem protecting his wife and children from a life threatening altercation.

 

That is not lack of faith in God, that is using the God given sense God has given us. It is understanding his role as protector of his family.

 

Security is to keep people safe, not "things."

 

Our security detail, many of our ministers, and I would imagine many of our members are carrying on any given Sunday morning...I would never know...just like I never even know my husband is carrying until he takes off his holster when we get home. It's not something most people announce.

[Mom22ns]

My small non-denominational church - no security.

 

The medium sized Baptist church we used to attend, where my kids still attend has security, but less than you are describing. There are a few cameras. There is a security team made up of church members who receive training in security measures, some of whom carry guns (with conceal and carry permits and special training). They patrol hallways and the parking lot during services, and keep someone stationed outside the children's area. When services are not going on, the building is locked and you have to intercom the receptionist to get them to buzz you in. However, when the security team tried to convince leadership to lock all but a couple of doors on Sunday, the proposal was firmly rejected. There is recognition of the increased safety it would bring but the goal was to let people in, not keep them out and the risk was considered worth taking.

 

The children's areas in both churches have some security - check in for all kids roughly 10 and under with parents having to sign them in and out and no one can pickup without the security tag that matches the child. 

 

eta: I'm sure plenty of people in both places conceal and carry. It is legal here and common. 

[marbel]

We have no security that I know if, though I suppose there could be people carrying.  But we are a pretty small church.

 

At a church I attended in the past, there were a few incidents involving a person who attended sporadically.  He never did anything violent but he frequently  made threatening remarks and more than once drove through the parking lot in a way that came close to endangering children on the sidewalk.   During that period of time, there were people carrying as a precaution, and being very watchful.  The man was unpredictable.  Surely no one would begrudge anyone - even Christians - the means to try to protect their children from a violent person.   

[chiguirre]

You will see hypocrisy anywhere you look for it. I personally, am disappointed by the non-believers who love to use that verse yet don't live by it themselves. That, in itself, is hypocritical. 

Why on earth would a non-Christian live by this verse? It flies in the face of reason, which was the whole point. The only reason someone would turn the other cheek, give their cloak as well as their tunic or walk 2 miles instead of 1 is that they believe Jesus is divine and will reward them in the afterlife. If you say you're a follower of Jesus, you're taking on that obligation and can be accused of hypocrisy when you don't live by it. Someone who isn't a follower of Jesus is under absolutely no obligation to live by anything he said at all and is completely free to cite him when they see Christians clearly not following his teachings. If you truly believe in Jesus' divine nature, you can take solace in the damnation that awaits the non-Christian who cites all the difficult passages at inopportune times.

 

(I'm not being snarky, this is the logical conclusion of Christian doctrine).

[TechWife]

Why on earth would a non-Christian live by this verse? It flies in the face of reason, which was the whole point. The only reason someone would turn the other cheek, give their cloak as well as their tunic or walk 2 miles instead of 1 is that they believe Jesus is divine and will reward them in the afterlife. If you say you're a follower of Jesus, you're taking on that obligation and can be accused of hypocrisy when you don't live by it. Someone who isn't a follower of Jesus is under absolutely no obligation to live by anything he said at all and is completely free to cite him when they see Christians clearly not following his teachings. If you truly believe in Jesus' divine nature, you can take solace in the damnation that awaits the non-Christian who cites all the difficult passages at inopportune times.

 

(I'm not being snarky, this is the logical conclusion of Christian doctrine).

 

You are absolutely correct in that Christians cannot expect non-Christians to act in a Christian manner. However, it is not true that a Christian would take solace in the damnation of a non-Christian, instead, such a thing should grieve a Christian. It is the desire of every Christian that all would come to believe in Christ while they are here on this earth. 

 

I worded my statement badly. It might be better said this way: I find it interesting that non-Christians want Christians to "disregard" verses that lead them to decisions or actions that are not politically/socially correct (pro-life would be one example), however, they find it hypocritical when Christians fail in their efforts (as all mortals do) to follow through on living up to other verses (such as the verses cited above). If a non-Christian sees the sin/failure of a Christian's actions as the Christian "picking and choosing" which verses to follow, or hypocritical, then it would follow that they can't also want Christians to disregard their scripturally-based beliefs for the sake of political/social correctness.   You can't have it both ways. I hope that's a little clearer. 

[Clear Creek]

I'd have thought one would put ones faith in God, not in Smith and Wesson. 

 

Color me perplexed.  I mean are the "good Christians" going to gun down someone who tries to steal from the collection plate? Have we been reading the same Bible???

 

Bill

 

No, if someone walked into my church and tried to steal from the collection plate, the off-duty cop would just arrest him. Then we would try to find out if he had a family he was trying to provide for by stealing and take care of their immediate needs (food, shelter, etc.). None of the people in my church that carry concealed would even think to pull their weapon out to protect the money in the offering plate. A weapon is to protect a life, not things. My husband carries concealed, and if someone tried to steal his truck he would hand them the keys, not shoot them! Things are not worth taking a life over. The only way my husband or anyone I know who carries a weapon would ever shoot someone would be in self-defense...if there was already a gun pointed at them or a loved one and there was no way to escape.

 

Now, if someone came in the door of my church and opened fire during a worship service, they would find a dozen or more weapons instantly pointing at them.