Is there not an Ebola in Dallas thread yet?

[kahlanne]

I don't have an issue with the way the comment was worded about the guy throwing up in the bushes. I would never take it to mean those horrible Africans or Muslims. Its exactly something I would say about my redneck relative puking in a bush, why not an African? It's gross and can't be cleaned well which is extremely necessary with Ebola. I wouldn't think my relative did it on purpose and seriously doubt that this man did either but it doesn't change the fact that  now more problems arise because of it. Maybe your perception of what she meant is off because of how you personally feel about her other comments?  To automatically assume she meant it in the most horrible manner is just as wrong as if she assumed the guy did the same by intentionally puking where it would cause the most harm without necessity. Both are making assumptions. I prefer to think the guy puked when and where he did because he couldn't help himself and Jinnah is worried that because he did, her fear is even more founded as it proves that it can easily get out into public. I don't agree with Jinnah's degree of worry but she isn't alone and not necessarily unfounded. Fact is we have a great system in place but it does have its flaws and can fail.

[MrsMommy]

Whoever thought I was blaming the man for vomiting and for possibly being Muslim are 100% incorrect and lack reading comprehension skills, yes.  Or, they just like to create issues and argue.

 

People not getting your tone, however you meant it, is not the same as lacking reading comprehension skills.

 

If that many people were telling me I said something that could be construed as irrational and offensive, I'd really start looking at what I said, how I said it, and why it came across that way. But that's just me.

[vonfirmath]

Whew. I'm glad to know that is not a statewide thing. It's so strange.

 

Apparently it's localized to my neck of the woods (a little bit southwest of Houston).

 

Yes. Because I grew up northwest of Houston and we didn't eat chili over rice :) OTOH my mom didn't make rice. I had to move to Washington to learn that rice was something you got outside of Mexican restaurants.

[Katy]

I find myself wondering whether the guy did not tell the hospital (the first time he went) that he had been exposed to Ebola, and why not.  All I read yesterday was that he mentioned that he had come from Liberia.  How could he not have been concerned that he had Ebola?

 

Separately, I wonder when his plane trip was planned, before or after his Ebola exposure.  (In that position, I would want to come to the US too  :tongue_smilie:)

 

My guess is cultural issues.  I have some friends who are medical missionaries in Senegal.

 

This is so true. I'm dealing with this now with my ds and dd. My son goes to public hs. He has missed 3 days this year and it has already affected his grades. Some of his teachers have made it so difficult to make work up. It makes me wish he was still homeschooled.

 

My dd is a sophomore in college. She has the flu and is very sick. She has missed 3 days this week. Two of her teachers won't let her make up work (a lab for one class and participation points and a quiz they take every class). She is also missing lectures for her math class and has an exam on Tuesday. She is far behind due to missing lectures but has no way to go over the missed material. Up until now she has a 4.0 but this will seriously jeopardize her grades.

So frustrated for you.

[kahlanne]

I will say I have learned a couple of things. My gut reaction when I heard the news was why not limit travel in places with Ebola. Seems sensible except it is not. Someone, sorry can't remember who, pointed out that even if it was possible, what would keep people from traveling to another country and then on to the US. How would we really be able to know where they originated from if they were attempting to get to the US to either get away from Ebola or get better treatment. In both cases, they may very well be willing to be deceitful. I can't say that I would blame them entirely either. I don't know what I would do in the situation and hope to never find out. Anyway, I am glad that someone posted it is easier to keep tabs on people when there isn't a ban on traveling than there would be with. Makes sense.

[creekland]

 

When did this change?  Is this common in other parts of the country?  Is it tied to funding?  When I was in school you stayed home if you were sick.  And especially if you had a doctor's note it was an excused absence.  

 

At our school students are supposed to stay home if they have a fever and come to school if they do not.  All doctor notes are excused.  Our funding is not based upon each day's attendance in a cumulative manner, but on a set number of students as an average.

 

If parents keep their kids home for 3 days in a row claiming illness, they must have a doctor's note.

 

 

It is gallows humor, for sure, and people may not agree with it.  I don't agree with being doom and gloom serious at all times, and when I make a joke, it is not to downplay anyone's pain or illness.  We can't do much at all to help this situation, so we talk and laugh and have a community here.  Humor and concern are not mutually exclusive.

 

IRL humor has sustained me through bad situations FAR more than once.  On boards, I have options of appreciating it and enjoying it or skimming through those portions of threads.  I like the option.  A world without humor would be dreadful to me.  Bad things without humor would be as well.

 

FWIW - no one else showed up for our "healing" competition, so I presume I'm the winner by default!  ;)

[Lolly]

You are not being attacked. What is happening is you are posting in such a way that your meaning is unclear and your words are those that would be used to promote undue fear and panic among those who are uneducated.

 

Your audience is educated and not one to panic, as a result the flaws in your arguments are being exposed for what they are.

 

This is not a personal attack.

 

At this point, people ARE taking what she says and putting ulterior motives there. I have no dogs in this fight. Yes, at this point she is being personally attacked. I'd bet if she came on and posted what she had for breakfast in this thread someone would have a few choice comments to make. It is possible that people are misconstruing her comments at this point simply because they are reacting to previous posts, but please, her vomit comment was totally innocent. If you cannot see that, you do have a bee in your bonnet that is distracting you. Honestly, you all should just drop it since you seem to be taking everything a little too intensely. (She is included in that remark.) Oh, and there is a lovely feature of this board that allows you to block posters that get under your skin. You won't even have to read thoses posts!

 

[creekland]

I will say I have learned a couple of things. My gut reaction when I heard the news was why not limit travel in places with Ebola. Seems sensible except it is not. Someone, sorry can't remember who, pointed out that even if it was possible, what would keep people from traveling to another country and then on to the US. How would we really be able to know where they originated from if they were attempting to get to the US to either get away from Ebola or get better treatment. In both cases, they may very well be willing to be deceitful. I can't say that I would blame them entirely either. I don't know what I would do in the situation and hope to never find out. Anyway, I am glad that someone posted it is easier to keep tabs on people when there isn't a ban on traveling than there would be with. Makes sense.

 

Even this guy went from Liberia to Belgium to DC to Dallas...

 

It's common to fly to/from Europe when traveling to many places in Africa.  My Cote D'Ivoire guy flew through Paris.

[creekland]

At this point, people ARE taking what she says and putting ulterior motives there. I have no dogs in this fight. Yes, at this point she is being personally attacked. I'd bet if she came on and posted what she had for breakfast in this thread someone would have a few choice comments to make.

 

It depends upon what type of BBQ she ate for breakfast... or maybe chili.

[Guest]

I will say I have learned a couple of things. My gut reaction when I heard the news was why not limit travel in places with Ebola. Seems sensible except it is not. Someone, sorry can't remember who, pointed out that even if it was possible, what would keep people from traveling to another country and then on to the US. How would we really be able to know where they originated from if they were attempting to get to the US to either get away from Ebola or get better treatment. In both cases, they may very well be willing to be deceitful. I can't say that I would blame them entirely either. I don't know what I would do in the situation and hope to never find out. Anyway, I am glad that someone posted it is easier to keep tabs on people when there isn't a ban on traveling than there would be with. Makes sense.

 

Couldn't there be some sort of requirement to disclose whether or not you were recently in areas affected?

 

Couldn't the travel ban be for everywhere? ETA: like people in affected areas cannot go anywhere (which is what I meant by travel ban).  To me, it seems better for everyone to stay put in the areas with huge outbreaks instead of spreading it elsewhere.

 

*When I say travel ban, I do not mean aid workers helping the situation.*

[kahlanne]

I am really feeling left out here. I doubt my pumpkin chili recipe would fly at all in a competition but it is really good. My crawfish etouffee is in a league of its own and imo chili doesn't even compare. :lol:

[Lolly]

It depends upon what type of BBQ she ate for breakfast... or maybe chili.

But, what if she had a cupcake like I did??? I love cupcakes for breakfast. Cosby had cake for breakfast pegged perfectly!

[hornblower]

Just absolutely not a good idea...goodness.  Please send your horribly ill child to school so we don't lose revenue.  It is irrelevant that your child may get far sicker from not getting proper care and rest and it certainly doesn't matter that they will probably spread whatever it is they have to other kids so they can get sick and have to come to school, too.  

 

totally agree! such a crazy system. Our schools get funding based on enrollment on Sep 30. If a kid is enrolled, that district gets the $, regardless of what happens to the kid or their attendance. There's a bit of a slush fund each district is supposed to have to deal with additional students moving mid year etc. but attendance has nothing to do with their funding.

 

& with the technology these days, so much of this is just plain nuts. Last term I taught a course in which one of the students was in Hawaii for a week. She thought she'd just be missing a lecture but that was the class with the student oral presentations. She did it via facetime. Her project partners were here, she was there, we had an ipad set up & she did her portion & watched & participated in the other presentations. No big deal.

 

high school or college students who are coughing & sneezing but still well enough to concentrate, could easily participate via skype or facetime etc from the comfort of their home.  Elementary students should just be left well enough alone at home with books, audio books, videos, puzzles & big boxes of kleenex. There's nothing that's so serious in elementary that missing even weeks of it is jeopardizing anyone's education....

 

I suspect that with the surge of antibiotic resistant illnesses (& weird novel viruses circulating globally) we might start going back to the system of sick people staying home in the next decade or so.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Couldn't there be some sort of requirement to disclose whether or not you were recently in areas affected?

 

Couldn't the travel ban be for everywhere? ETA: like people in affected areas cannot go anywhere (which is what I meant by travel ban).  To me, it seems better for everyone to stay put in the areas with huge outbreaks instead of spreading it elsewhere.

 

*When I say travel ban, I do not mean aid workers helping the situation.*

 

So you think a worldwide travel ban is actually feasible? It isn't, and the disease has not moved far enough to justify a draconian action of that nature.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

If it doesn't have bacon it isn't breakfast.  I cannot be moved from that position so do not even try.

[Carrie12345]

Couldn't there be some sort of requirement to disclose whether or not you were recently in areas affected?

 

Or, couldn't the travel ban be for everywhere?  To me, it seems better for everyone to stay put in the areas with huge outbreaks instead of spreading it elsewhere.

 

*When I say travel ban, I do not mean aid workers helping the situation.*

 

Disclosure requires trust.  I don't have that.  ;)

 

Putting all economics aside for a moment, the idea of banning all travel terrifies me right now.  My dh just left the country for a month.  When I let myself go a little to the paranoia end of things, yeah, I am worried about what all this will look like in a month.

[Jean in Newcastle]

A couple of comments.

 

I really appreciate a lot of the news coverage on this.  It isn't sensational or fearful but has been pretty factual.  If you read that news coverage you find that the large numbers of people identified are because they are being extremely careful.  Most of those people will probably be knocked off the list as they show no signs of illness after the incubation period passes.  (Yes, this is a guess on my part but one based on the science reported.)  All of these people are taking their temperature twice a day to immediate know when fever strikes - this is what monitoring means for the bulk of these people.  I've seen conflicting reports on the children.  One report said that the kids exposed were going to school but now are at home.  I have no basis for telling which conflicting report is true and which isn't.  

 

The man at ground zero did not contract ebola simply from being in a place where you can assume he'd have had the sort of contact that the bulk of these people being monitored had.  He got it from actively touching a person who had an advanced case of the disease. 

 

Regardless of what this man's employers knew, this man must have been planning this trip for some time because he is a first time visitor to the US and travel documents are not something you get on a moment's notice.  

 

The whole chili/Texas thing is what happens when you have a bunch of people in a crowded room.  They might all start talking about the same thing but some ADHD person makes the jump from Dallas to Texas to BBQ to chili - others find that interesting as well and there are these two or more conversations  going on in the same room with some people multi-tasking and joining in both and some veering off again (I mean you, Texasmama!) and starting experimental cutting!  

[FaithManor]

Just absolutely not a good idea...goodness.  Please send your horribly ill child to school so we don't lose revenue.  It is irrelevant that your child may get far sicker from not getting proper care and rest and it certainly doesn't matter that they will probably spread whatever it is they have to other kids so they can get sick and have to come to school, too.  

 

Zero tolerance policies come to mind. Some school districts, thankfully only one of the school districts in our county has this (but there are plenty more out there in the US), require a doctor's notice for any absence. Period. The student upon being found absent from school is automatically assigned detention and this is not excused until the letter from the doctor comes. Of course, it really ticks the doctors' off because they don't want to be wasting their time filling out forms for kids with the stomach bug which tends to run 24 hours or miserable with the common flu, or symptomatic with flu but having a light case and unless the kid is really dehydrated, shouldn't be in their waiting rooms when they really can't be treated anyway. It's crazy! Of course it costs the parents money because the doc can't be wasting time doing it for free, so an office call is charged even if there is nothing that can be done for the patient. In the case of teens who could be home alone for the duration of the ailment, the parent has to stay home to prove the kid isn't just "skipping school" which is always the accusation from administrators, and they have to be present at the doc's office because minors can't sign the financial paperwork much less the medical stuff.

 

Add to that employers who are adamantly opposed to their employees being off to take care of a sick kid, and the situation is nuts. It ends up with parents sending kids to school when they know they absolutely should not do so...well for some. I know parents who also truly don't care. Period. End of discussion. They simply do not care if kid is exposing everyone else to illness or not. Sigh....our whole culture is completely out of whack on this.

 

Tying school funding to per head attendance is just ridiculous. It costs money to have that school open whether or not the kid attends. Send the money. Let the sick kid stay home. Yah, some parents are lazy and will let kids skip school for the sake of skipping school. But, having policies does not cure those parents of their lack of parenting skills. Stop punishing everyone else!

 

Entero D68, the CDC reported on Wednesday that four patients are confirmed to have died from the virus.

 

Annually, RSV kills 66,000-199,000 children worldwide.

 

RSV kills 10,000 elderly American patients per year.

 

From 1976 to 2007, influenza killed a low of 3000 people to a high of 49,000 annually in the US.

 

The three worst killing communicable diseases (albeit the first two have a more limited mode of transmission) in the African region are HIV/AIDS, malaria, and Tuberculousis. These three count for 88% of all disease related deaths.

 

(statistics taken from the WHO, CDC, and All Africa.com)

 

Given that we've had five cases of TB in one of our county school districts a couple of years ago, and it's on the rise, thousands of cases of flu, RSV, and now a confirmed case of entero here as well, I think that these deserve a lot more concern than they get.

 

But, with funding as an issue, as always the pursuit of money will trump human health and safety, so the schools won't do anything to stop the spread that's for certain. They will most definitely try to strong arm parents into not taking precautions either.

 

Ebola just isn't the killer that the above diseases are, but people are used to living with the risk so no one cares. It's the unknown that scares everyone even if the unknown is not as lethal on this soil or as easily transmitted.

 

Sometimes I wonder if the US would be better served to school solidly through the summer...with long recesses for the vitamin D production and fresh air, and then take the three months off in the dead of RSV/Flu weather. I have a feeling that alone would greatly reduce the pediatric cases and risk. It might not do much for the elderly, but it could protect the kids a lot more. Plus, think about this....you get to take your Disney World Vacation in January, not June! If you live in Antarctica (ahem, I mean Michigan :D) this would be a welcome change in scheduling! Plus, no school busses and teenage drivers on snow and ice up here. I could really get behind this! :)

 

[kahlanne]

Couldn't there be some sort of requirement to disclose whether or not you were recently in areas affected?

 

Or, couldn't the travel ban be for everywhere?  To me, it seems better for everyone to stay put in the areas with huge outbreaks instead of spreading it elsewhere.

 

*When I say travel ban, I do not mean aid workers helping the situation.*

 

I will leave it to the more experienced travelers to answer those questions. I haven't traveled by plane since I went to Honduras on a summer mission trip in my long ago teens. Our travel exists of Ms and Florida. If we are lucky we can make it to Tn this year.

 

The one thing I will say is that if someone wanted to be deceitful about their place of origin because they are trying to flee ebola areas or to get better medical care knowing they already have it, it would possibly be  difficult to verify.

[hornblower]

If it doesn't have bacon it isn't breakfast.  I cannot be moved from that position so do not even try.

 

Seriously, there you go again, insulting the vegetarians & vegans. :glare:  

 

Tolerance. Can we not have some tolerance?

 

:laugh:

 

don't make me post cute pictures of pigs....

[Guest]

Disclosure requires trust.  I don't have that.  ;)

 

Putting all economics aside for a moment, the idea of banning all travel terrifies me right now.  My dh just left the country for a month.  When I let myself go a little to the paranoia end of things, yeah, I am worried about what all this will look like in a month.

 

I don't think travel should be banned everywhere.  Just from the affected countries, so I think your dh would be okay.  :)

[creekland]

But, what if she had a cupcake like I did??? I love cupcakes for breakfast. Cosby had cake for breakfast pegged perfectly!

 

Did you miss the gluten free or no carbs revolution?  Some people are seriously behind the times!  ;)

 

I will admit to liking Cosby's Cake for Breakfast routine, but that is kind of old now... perhaps right along with those garlic necklaces.

[Audrey]

I just want to address the misconception that Texas, Oklahoma, and Nebraska are the same state. Nebraska is far superior to those other places. Far superior. We have fancy things like corn and soybeans. Also, our panhandle is bigger that those other tiny little wannabe panhandles. Plus, we have Runza. Do those other heathen places have Runzas? No! Have any of their state senators tried to sue God? No! Do those back words states have anything as awesome as our Unicameral?!?! Not. Even. Kinda. Do their state capitals look like giant male appendages sticking out of the prairie? Nope. I'll concede the BBQ argument. Everything else Nebraska wins. Except football. Louisiana wins that argument.

 

I like the way you just skipped over Kansas there.

 

As it should be. ;)

[FaithManor]

Given that nearly all flights in and out of any continent are not direct/straight through flights, and therefore millions of people are going to have to disclose their countries of origin, that on other continents people travel back and forth between countries as easily as we travel between the states here making tracking just about impossible, that millions of people work in one country and live in another, that millions of people do not have the money to live on an airport floor or pay for hotels and food for an indeterminate period of time while borders are closed, that this puts an undo burden on other countries to provide for the millions of stranded passengers, that business is global so banning international travel and closing ports will cause major disruption in imports, business dealings, etc. thus causing a stock market crash thus potentially causing many Americans to lose their jobs and with that their health benefits thereby guaranteeing even fewer possibly symptomatic individuals will seek medical care because they can't afford the health care exchanges or their state did not expand Medicaid/Medicare, that closing borders and slowing imports/exports will have a HUGE impact on relief services sent to West Africa thus encouraging the virus to proliferate even more, the domino effect being profound....

 

NO, nothing has happened thus far that warrants such drastic measures.

 

 

[Carrie12345]

I don't think travel should be banned everywhere.  Just from the affected countries, so I think your dh would be okay.   :)

 

Okay, I don't want to dog pile b/c I've appreciated the on-topic parts of this thread  :glare: , but I've got to point out that your post did not reflect that before you went back to edit it.  So, all snarkiness aside, it's probably a good idea to pay attention to your wording.

[texasmama]

IRL humor has sustained me through bad situations FAR more than once.  On boards, I have options of appreciating it and enjoying it or skimming through those portions of threads.  I like the option.  A world without humor would be dreadful to me.  Bad things without humor would be as well.

 

FWIW - no one else showed up for our "healing" competition, so I presume I'm the winner by default!   ;)

I got stuck in traffic driving up to your part of the nation.  Sigh.  I really wanted to win the supergluing cuts competition, too...

 

During a particularly dark time of my life, I read Erma Bombeck every day.  When she passed away, I cried because her humor helped me make it through a hard, hard time.  She was like a treasured friend to me.

 

We all have different gifts.  I have good hair and good humor so I will use both as long as I have them.   I have a sub-gift of derailing threads with nonsense.  That takes special skill, I tell you.  SPECIAL.

[umsami]

The entrepreneur in me is betting an anti-Vampire type necklace would sell big this time of year.

 

Hello…Ali Baba? Of course, I could charge more if it was made-in-America with organic non-GMO type ingredients.

 

 

On an on-topic moment, the Washington Post has a feature on Ebola in the US and How it can spread and be stopped.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/national/how-us-officials-will-battle-ebola-in-dallas/2014/10/01/418f5b76-49a6-11e4-a4bf-794ab74e90f0_video.html

[OneStepAtATime]

The entrepreneur in me is betting an anti-Vampire type necklace would sell big this time of year.

 

Hello…Ali Baba? Of course, I could charge more if it was made-in-America with organic non-GMO type ingredients.

 

 

On an on-topic moment, the Washington Post has a feature on Ebola in the US and How it can spread and be stopped.  

http://www.washingtonpost.com/posttv/national/how-us-officials-will-battle-ebola-in-dallas/2014/10/01/418f5b76-49a6-11e4-a4bf-794ab74e90f0_video.html

I have maxed out my likes.  So I shall manually like your post.  And mourn the limit on likes....

[albeto.]

I don't think travel should be banned everywhere.  Just from the affected countries...

 

How would you propose to enforce affected countries to honor a travel ban? Should we provide troops on the ground to prevent travel by car and foot? Ships at sea to prevent travel by boat? Lockdown all international flights to prevent people from flying to other countries that could provide connections to the US? Or should the US simply restrict all travel? Those who are in the borders now must stay, those who are outside may not enter until considered "safe"?

 

What does this look like to you? Help me see what you see in your mind. 

[kahlanne]

For our school, we get 5 unexcused absences per semester. They don't allow makeup work unless you have a doctor's excuse. Personally I think its ridiculous. My child stayed home with a stomach virus for 2 days and couldn't make up his work unless I took him to his pediatrician to verify it was a virus. Of course the ped couldn't do anything for my child that I wasn't able to do at home and there was a $148 office visit charge. I refuse to waste that kind of money knowing the treatment is rest, keep hydrated, and more rest. Common sense should apply. If the child is known to work hard in school, parents are involved, and minimal absences, there should be some leeway allowing sickness to not require doctors visit.

 

Then again, my son received an 0/F because I didn't give the teacher my email address at the beginning of the year. I didn't want the daily homework emails, etc that I received in the previous years. My son is in 9th grade, A student since 4th grade, and only had one behavioral mark years ago. I think couple with these facts and his age, he is quite capable of keeping up with homework assignments. Btw, the school has our email, phone, etc if there is a real issue that arises for contact between the teacher and parents.  This same teacher insists the students place all their backpacks against the entrance walls retrieving whats needed for class beforehand because she doesn't like to hear the noise of students opening and closing sacks during class. If your pencil led breaks and you didn't get out an extra, sharpeners not allowed due to noise, you cannot retrieve another. If you didn't get the correct book/paper out, you are out of luck. You receive a 0 for non participation. She defends it by stating they are nearly adults and should be able to retrieve what is needed without issue. Of course my using the same argument, son being nearly and adult and responsible, for not giving email didn't change his grade. His interim grade is the first C he has received in any class, ever.

 

Sorry....sidetracked. Schools aggravate me.

[BrookValley.]

<snip>

 

 I live on a farm raising ponies in PA now (for the past 17 years), yet up until a year ago had only been to a dr (or assistant) 4 times (work physical, tick bite, pneumonia, tetanus shot).  Do you seriously think I'm talented enough to not have gotten boo boos over those years?  And someone has to take care of the ponies when they find things to get hurt with.

 

<snip>

 

Ok, because things haven't gotten off topic enough, I'm going to derail even further...I knew you had horses, but I did not know you raised ponies in a neighboring state! I'm in the market for a pony (I show hunters) for eldest. Preferably medium. I can't find any good ones that don't cost more than my annual salary. :glare:

[maize]

Couldn't there be some sort of requirement to disclose whether or not you were recently in areas affected?

 

Couldn't the travel ban be for everywhere? ETA: like people in affected areas cannot go anywhere (which is what I meant by travel ban). To me, it seems better for everyone to stay put in the areas with huge outbreaks instead of spreading it elsewhere.

 

*When I say travel ban, I do not mean aid workers helping the situation.*

Who precisely is going to impose this travel ban? It is not as if the US has some kind of authority to tell people in other countries they cannot cross their own borders. Only Liberia could impose a rule that people cannot leave Liberia for any reason, though even they could likely not enforce it. And do we really think it is desirable foe governments to behave in such strong-handed ways? Does their constitution even allow for such drastic measures? That also seems like a way to prevent any further foreign aid...who is going to send aid workers in if they are forbidden to leave? I would not volunteer for such an assignment!

[Halftime Hope]

Really?  

 

That sarcastic (and apropos!!) comment is disgusting but the implication that this ill man willfully has infected all of Dallas by tossing his cookies in a boxwood as an act of public aggression is ok.

 

Gotcha.

 

Calandalsmom, you and I have been of different opinions on several issues in the past week or weeks, and while you find Jinnah's comments to be offensive, it's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.  You routinely use sarcasm like she does, and putting it nicely, your comments can be very blunt and sometimes emotional.

 

I have learned a LOT in the years that I have hung out on these forums, and I come here often when I know that I need differing perspectives before I decide what I think about something. 

 

Can I ask you, gently, to consider the way you write things, and to please offer your perspective in a kind and non-demeaning manner.  Your opinion and your voice are needed, as are Jinnah's. 

 

 

[FaithManor]

I don't think travel should be banned everywhere.  Just from the affected countries, so I think your dh would be okay.   :)

But Jinnah, it doesn't work this way. Flights to and from West Africa are not direct flights. They route through London, Amsterdam, Munich, Frankfurt, Paris, you name it, and they pick up passengers along the way. The planes themselves in any 48 hr. period of time are routed all over the world landing in many far flung places. So in order to actually make a travel ban that would work to guarantee or at least probably guarantee that ebola would not enter through foreign travel, the US would literally have to close its ports. US travelers all over the world would have to stay where they are whether they have the money to survive or not. Foreign countries would have to take over the care of these travelers or they would have to take up residence in our embassies, and well, if you haven't visited our foreign embassies you may not realize that in nearly all cases, they aren't that big nor staffed well enough to take on this role. They are there to coordinate some benefits for our people and evacuation efforts if necessary. They can be a sanctuary for one or two or a handful of travelers, not hundreds.

 

I think that for many Americans, they do not realize how much international travel there is and how it is all coordinated. The plane that takes you to Paris and back may have also been in Nigeria, Morocco, Liberia, Italy, and Germany all in the same week. In order to do what you suggest, we'd have to stop it all. Every flight. Every port. Every ship. All of it. But, that has a very disastrous human toll on many, many levels...the first being an unemployment rate like nothing we've ever seen in this country. Poverty is linked to a profoundly increased risk of contracting and transporting communicable diseases. Don't think that the United Corporations of America have any intention of sending out paychecks when the money isn't coming in...no pay check, no job, no health insurance, fewer people seeking medical care until it is "too late", evicted from houses, living on the streets....the reality is that a one week or even two week ban would not be enough. For a travel ban to work to completely insure no ebola comes in, it would have to last for MONTHS and frighteningly, maybe even longer.

 

[Jane in NC]

Couldn't there be some sort of requirement to disclose whether or not you were recently in areas affected?

 

Couldn't the travel ban be for everywhere? ETA: like people in affected areas cannot go anywhere (which is what I meant by travel ban).  To me, it seems better for everyone to stay put in the areas with huge outbreaks instead of spreading it elsewhere.

 

*When I say travel ban, I do not mean aid workers helping the situation.*

 

People who know far more than I about infectious disease have been saying that there are greater threats than ebola.  To initiate a travel ban for one disease sounds like a slippery slope to me.  There have been measle outbreaks in some US cities.  Do we initiate travel bans to all places with public health threats?

 

Seems to be the best use of dollars in this case would be to send medical teams, equipment and medications to countries fighting the epidemic.

[texasmama]

The whole chili/Texas thing is what happens when you have a bunch of people in a crowded room.  They might all start talking about the same thing but some ADHD person makes the jump from Dallas to Texas to BBQ to chili - others find that interesting as well and there are these two or more conversations  going on in the same room with some people multi-tasking and joining in both and some veering off again (I mean you, Texasmama!) and starting experimental cutting!  

And I don't even have ADHD.  Just imagine what I would be like if I did.  ;)

 

I do love me some multiple party conversations, though.  :D

[Chelli]

When did schools become so strict on absences?

 

When I was in school you had to have a note from your parent: "Little Johnny was sick with a fever and vomiting so he missed XYZ days of school." or a doctor's note.

The current policy of send your child even if they are ill so we can get money cause their tush is in a seat makes no sense to me. Do the schools not realize that it could actually lead to more lost money in the long run because if said child comes to school ill and infects 20 other kids, then that's 20 more kids at school (aka more money) that the district would have if they had just let the sick child stay home until they were well?

 

And not allowing kids to make up their missed work for any reason is ridiculous.

[albeto.]

"United Corporations of America"

 

:wub:

[Jane in NC]

But Jinnah, it doesn't work this way. Flights to and from West Africa are not direct flights. They route through London, Amsterdam, Munich, Frankfort, Paris, you name it, and they pick up passengers along the way. The planes themselves in any 48 hr. period of time are routed all over the world landing in many far flung places. So in order to actually make a travel ban that would work to guarantee or at least probably guarantee that ebola would not enter through foreign travel, the US would literally have to close it's ports. US travelers all over the world would have to stay where they are whether they have the money to survive or not. Foreign countries would have to take over the care of these travelers or they would have to take up residence in our embassies, and well, if you haven't visited our foreign embassies you may not realize that in nearly all cases, they aren't that big nor staffed well enough to take on this role. They are there to coordinate some benefits for our people and evacuation efforts if necessary. They can be a sanctuary for one or two or a handful of travelers, not hundreds.

 

I think that for many Americans, they do not realize how much international travel there is and how it is all coordinated. The plane that takes you to Paris and back may have also been in Nigeria, Morocco, Liberia, Italy, and Germany all in the same week. In order to do what you suggest, we'd have to stop it all. Every flight. Every port. Every ship. All of it. But, that has a very disastrous human toll on many, many levels...the first being an unemployment rate like nothing we've ever seen in this country. Poverty is linked to a profoundly increased risk of contracting and transporting communicable diseases. Don't think that the United Corporations of America have any intention of sending out paychecks when the money isn't coming in...no pay check, no job, no health insurance, fewer people seeking medical care until it is "too late", evicted from houses, living on the streets....the reality is that a one week or even two week ban would not be enough. For a travel ban to work to completely insure no ebola comes in, it would have to last for MONTHS and frighteningly, maybe even longer.

 

 

Thank you for writing this out. I was on a plane from Amsterdam on Monday, having started on a city hopper in Prague earlier that morning. From conversations in the airport, I learned that a couple had been in Tanzania on safari, loads of people had been on river cruises, etc.  Ebola aside, how many people on the plane had been exposed to some sort of infectious disease?  

 

 

[Matryoshka]

So you think a worldwide travel ban is actually feasible? It isn't, and the disease has not moved far enough to justify a draconian action of that nature.

 

I'm not getting what you guys are saying about a travel ban having to be US-imposed or worldwide??  A travel ban in the case of quarantine is to close down the affected area, which can be as small as a town, or really early on, a house.  It has nothing to do with the US or other countries, and it matters not if they came in through another country, because they don't get out of there to anywhere at all, especially to other third world countries where it would not be so easily contained - this has nothing to do with the US! If they had instituted a travel ban out of the affected (much smaller) area when it first happened - imho the WHO should have stepped in and suggested that very early on - it could possibly have been contained and not gotten to the cities in the original countries.  The pregnant woman who infected the US guy got it from someone who had traveled to the city from outside.  Now a whole bunch of other people in her building are already dead from having contracted it from her, and then each other.  Just since then.  Yes, it would have been inconvenient and costly.  They probably would have had to bring food and water in.  But less inconvenient and costly than what's going on there now that it's spreading and pretty much out of control?

 

The aid workers who got medflighted out would not have to be part of a travel ban, because they go directly to a hospital.  Apparently healthy aid workers that wanted to leave could just have a 21-day quarantine (hotel, or even home).  Quarantines used to be commonplace before antibiotics and vaccines, because they are effective in limiting highly communicable disease for which there is no cure.  My mom remembers Quarantine signs hung on classmates' doors when they got the measles. We're used to having a cure for everything, so they've fallen out of favor, but we don't have a cure or treatment for this (although some of the newer stuff does look promising, we're not there yet).

 

In the case of something like enterovirus, it's impractical because no one's even sure if they have it till they're hospitalized and already effectively quarantined (and it's probably also contagious before you are symptomatic).  Hopefully they'll figure out a vaccine for that one.

 

[maize]

I'm running a thought experiment in my head: what would happen in a major Ebola outbreak (say thousands of cases) occurred in Dallas and the city were placed under quarantine?

 

The National Guard is called out, no one is allowed in or out of the city/surrounding area...

People who were there are business trips or vacations can't get home

People who were away can't get back

The economy grinds to a halt

Armed groups try to break out

Massive chaos ensues...

 

 

None of this sounds like a good way to try to contain a disease. I'm thinking travel bans are really not going to be a helpful solution, even within a single state.

[creekland]

I got stuck in traffic driving up to your part of the nation.  Sigh.  I really wanted to win the supergluing cuts competition, too...

 

During a particularly dark time of my life, I read Erma Bombeck every day.  When she passed away, I cried because her humor helped me make it through a hard, hard time.  She was like a treasured friend to me.

 

We all have different gifts.  I have good hair and good humor so I will use both as long as I have them.   I have a sub-gift of derailing threads with nonsense.  That takes special skill, I tell you.  SPECIAL.

 

Ok, your sob story about traffic (undoubtedly around DC) and the fact that you do have special talents I enjoy means I will share my prize with you.  Next time, take I 81 north and come at us from the west for less traffic.  Trying to come here from the east or south can require humor all by itself.

 

Ok, because things haven't gotten off topic enough, I'm going to derail even further...I knew you had horses, but I did not know you raised ponies in a neighboring state! I'm in the market for a pony (I show hunters) for eldest. Preferably medium. I can't find any good ones that don't cost more than my annual salary. :glare:

 

Unless you are looking for youngsters I can't really help you.  Once my boys started growing up and moving away we really cut back our herd.  At our peak we had 28 here and were doing our own starting, etc.  Now we have 8 and sell them young.  I have one  chestnut 2 year old filly that will head into training this fall/winter if not sold - but she's likely to grow into a large, and one buckskin yearling filly that will stay here another year unless the person who stopped in a week ago (after seeing her in the pasture) decides to buy her.  She's supposedly thinking about it, but seemed a little more serious than the usual drive by.

 

Oh - we also have this year's babies... a colt & filly... but I'm thinking you don't want THAT young.

 

My other three are my broodmares and my stallion.  At this point, they aren't for sale.  I have hopes that my health will get better.

 

Best wishes on your search.  Good ponies can be difficult to find.  When my boys were young we traveled out of state to pick up some nice ones at prices we could afford.

[hornblower]

But countries already are trying the quarantine thing. Sierra Leone did a 3 day lock down & now has extended travel restrictions for well over a million people. Areas near the border with Guinea have been under quarantine for months.

It's hard to know if this is working or not in terms of limiting the spread of disease. The poverty & lack of infrastructure make everything so much more difficult.

If you were in a quarantined area & your children were starving, how much effort would you make to sneak out to a city where you could get food for them?

Where many people don't even have any id, how can you tell where anyone is from & whether they're out of their quarantine zone?

in areas with corruption & lawlessness, who will enforce this and prevent those able to pay bribes from getting out?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/25/ebola-epidemic-sierra-leone-quarantine-un-united-nations

[Pawz4me]

But countries already are trying the quarantine thing. Sierra Leone did a 3 day lock down & now has extended travel restrictions for well over a million people. Areas near the border with Guinea have been under quarantine for months.

 

It's hard to know if this is working or not in terms of limiting the spread of disease. The poverty & lack of infrastructure make everything so much more difficult.

If you were in a quarantined area & your children were starving, how much effort would you make to sneak out to a city where you could get food for them?

 

Where many people don't even have any id, how can you tell where anyone is from & whether they're out of their quarantine zone?

 

in areas with corruption & lawlessness, who will enforce this and prevent those able to pay bribes from getting out?

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/25/ebola-epidemic-sierra-leone-quarantine-un-united-nations

 

But I'm guessing poverty and lack of infrastructure make a quarantine/travel ban much more do-able than it would be in a first world country.

[Pam in CT]

The *practical* difficulties with travel bans -- that most flights to/from Africa route through third countries, that travelers across European borders don't go through passport control, that the physical planes route through multiple countries before coming here, etc. -- are all real.

 

The more fundamental difficulty with travel bans is that Liberia, and other Ebola-affected countries, and transit airport countries, and indeed all other countries, are sovereign.  The US does not have the authority to close other countries' borders, or shut down other nation's airlines.

 

 

It is a desperate, desperate shame that we, collectively, governments and NGOs and charitable organizations and individuals together, did not invest the money and expertise and resources to deal with this effectively when the problem was small and localized and Over There.  It will certainly be more difficult now that it is larger and here.  I believe we can, but it will be harder.

 

Perhaps we'll learn and do better the next time.

[shawthorne44]

I had NO IDEA that people thought beans in chili were a bad thing.  The things I learn on here!

 

Beans were an aberration introduced in either New York or New Jersey (I forget) as a cheap filler.  When I was a kid, some family friends from church opened a chili restaurant and they'd done some serious chili research beforehand.  

 

On the Ebola subject, I am selfishly glad DD wasn't spending any time with my MIL who lives inside Dallas recently. We live in a remote suburb.  It is also another reason to be glad DD isn't going to school.  Not that school equals Ebola.  But that School would equal increased mommy worry.   

 

On travel.   I was on the first plane into Taiwan after the SARS problem.  As you got off the plane ropes funneled people into a single-file.  There was a remote temperate sensor that looked a bit like a radar gun.  It took the temp of people as they walked by, and they didn't even have to slow down.  It was showing green or something good when everyone near me walked by.  But, I assume if someone was too high they'd get shuttled into an "extra attention" area.  I wouldn't mind something like this on all international flights as they come in, and when possible at the gate before people get on.  

[Jane in NC]

I'm running a thought experiment in my head: what would happen in a major Ebola outbreak (say thousands of cases) occurred in Dallas and the city were placed under quarantine?

 

 

And from what we are learning about Texas, we think that the population would stay quarantined?  ;)

 

I was teaching at a university that had measles outbreak in one of the dorms.  Of course for measles there is an immunization and everyone under a certain age had to have it or produce their immunization card to demonstrate that they had had a booster within a certain time frame.  Life cannot be completely disrupted for a "what if" scenario.  Classes went on and the public health threat was contained.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

It is a desperate, desperate shame that we, collectively, governments and NGOs and charitable organizations and individuals together, did not invest the money and expertise and resources to deal with this effectively when the problem was small and localized and Over There.  It will certainly be more difficult now that it is larger and here.  I believe we can, but it will be harder.

 

Perhaps we'll learn and do better the next time.

 

This x 1,000

[Halftime Hope]

So, you all are asking how a travel ban would be implemented.  In about 5 minutes I can think of a number of measures that would be helpful.  And these are just a starting point, a rough approximation.  I'm sure that a team that really knows their stuff on this could come up with a comprehensive plan, and I'm pretty sure there are such plans already sitting on shelves.

 

1) Tell the countries effected that no planes will be flying into that country that are just passenger planes carrying people doing routine business.  The only flights coming in will be humanitarian cargo and medical personnel. 

 

2) Tell the countries involved that no planes from their country will be allowed to land in any other country.  Period.  With no planes coming in, it would not take long for outbound attempted flights to cease; the poverty of the countries certainly figures into how many planes there are on the ground.

 

3) Because the attempted flights coming out *will* happen, the UN would have to have an agreed upon location to route those planes, an isolation area with specifically constructed medical facilities that can handle the cases that will become infectious.  This area could also be used for evacuation and treatment of infected personnel, whom we want to get the best care.

 

4) For this to work, the rest of the world will have to man up and start sending massive amounts of help.  If we want those countries to have a chance at having the virus die out, they are going to need food to replace the bats, and food and supplies to help families keep themselves quarantined until they have all either succumbed to the virus or come through to the other side of an incubation period, and so on.  And of course, there will have to be more medical care available. 

 

5) Truly though, the "put your oxygen mask on first" principle applies.  We (the rest of the world) cannot help if our own resources are too busy fighting the virus here.  The CDC sent a 7-man team to Dallas.  How many teams have they got?  

 

6) And lest you think a travel ban is a completely hare-brained idea idea, they have a court order and police sitting in front of the apartment, ordering the family to stay indoors in their home. 

 

7) Yes, it is harder to lock down people coming out of the effected countries overland.  That may not be able to be enforced without bloodshed, but it can be discouraged and curtailed so that the risk is smaller.  Nigeria seems to be handling this well.

 

(BTW, the CDC guy yesterday mentioned a second case.  The local county health guy said there is no second person.  I'll have to go re-read what he said exactly, but my gut is that I call BS on that.  The CDC guy would not have mentioned case #2 out of thin air unless he wanted to lose his job.) 

 

 

 

 

[creekland]

Beans were an aberration introduced in either New York or New Jersey (I forget) as a cheap filler.     

 

Ok, here's the ICS (International Chili Society) take on it:

 

http://www.chilicookoff.com/history/history_of_chili.asp

 

"There may not be an answer. There are, however, certain facts that one cannot overlook. The mixture of meat, beans, peppers, and herbs was known to the Incas, Aztecs, and Mayan Indians long before Columbus and the conquistadores."

 

Note the important word beans in there.  ;)

 

They go on with more for those interested.