creekland Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 If this guy had to lie and get to the US to get medical help, but figured he wasn't contagious on the flights, fine. But it's utterly appalling that he didn't quarantine himself upon arrival and that he didn't insist the hospital do the same when he arrived there the first time. He knowingly exposed his own relatives including children. That's shocking to me. How much are we to assume that he knew about the disease? Why are we to assume that he knew enough to overrule the medical professionals he was seeing who were telling him it's not a big deal - esp since he appears to have been honest about coming from Liberia? He wasn't sick. He got some symptoms and went to the ER. They told him he was essentially fine. How was he supposed to know that they were wrong, esp since he was told otherwise by medical folks? I think we're assuming he had all the knowledge about the disease that we do, but I really believe that's a false assumption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 In the video I linked, which was taken from the ground, not a helicopter, CNN specifically said that this guy was hosing off the ebola victim's vomit into the gutter to be washed into the Dallas sewer system. Not that CNN is the Gospel, but that's what they are reporting. It won't survive in water. Can Ebola be spread through a drop of water or carried through the water system? "[The virus] will not remain for a long time in the water," Gonzalez says. "It's not a very rich medium to protect the virus." It's important, he adds, to remember that viruses aren't as resistant outside the body as bacteria are. Rather, they depend heavily on the cells of their host — animal or human — for survival. In water, the Ebola virus would be deactivated in a matter of minutes, Schmaljohn says. That's because each Ebola virus is encased in an envelope taken from the outer surface, or membrane, of a host cell. http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandsoda/2014/09/12/346114454/how-do-you-catch-ebola-by-air-sweat-or-water I kind of wish the people with the power washers were wearing something somewhat protective. They are not even wearing masks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 It won't survive in water. http://www.npr.org/blogs/goatsandsoda/2014/09/12/346114454/how-do-you-catch-ebola-by-air-sweat-or-water Plus water in sewer systems is treated, so anything that MIGHT survive the H2O would be killed by the treatment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 The article said that the helicopter reporter took the picture, but that they didn't know if the power washing had anything to do with the Ebola or not, just that it was taking place in that apartment complex. It didn't say that was the clean up. It said they didn't know. Did you watch the video RanchGirl just posted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Did you watch the video RanchGirl just posted? I was replying to your article which you stated several times was about the clean up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 In the video I linked, which was taken from the ground, not a helicopter, CNN specifically said that this guy was hosing off the ebola victim's vomit into the gutter to be washed into the Dallas sewer system. Not that CNN is the Gospel, but that's what they are reporting. And, in the photo I linked, you could see puddles of the contaminated water pooling around the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I was replying to your article which you stated several times was about the clean up. It was the clean-up. Helicopter view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 The pressure washing was not just with water but included bleach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 This is a 42 year old man from an Ebola stricken country who speaks English, is fairly comfortable traveling internationally, has an active facebook account, and has a wife or girlfriend who speaks English, and lives in the US and is also from Liberia originally. He has had personal contact with at least two people who have died from Ebola. I think it's safe to say that at least one of them should be held responsible for knowing a little something about Ebola. I think he knew it was deadly and he'd have a better chance of survival in the US once he realized it wasn't a miscarriage, but that doesn't mean he knows all some are assuming he knew about how it starts/spreads or that medical professionals could be wrong. Just because someone speaks English, travels, and is intelligent doesn't mean they know everything about a disease. I suspect after the lady's death, he got worried and started making "Hail Mary" plans knowing only the headlines. When he started to get symptoms he sought medical help - and trusted their advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Plus water in sewer systems is treated, so anything that MIGHT survive the H2O would be killed by the treatment. The power spraying just spread the germs around the complex, though. There are also standing pools (puddles) of the tainted water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 The pressure washing was not just with water but included bleach. Do you have a source for that? None of the reports I read have said anything about bleach being used. Also, the people cleaning should have been wearing hazmat suits. It seems the CDC should have sent a clean-up unit, not had what appears to be the apartment maintenance man clean it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 The power spraying just spread the germs around the complex, though. There are also standing pools (puddles) of the tainted water. Water with bleach in it - the recommended killing method last I saw. If the water alone doesn't kill it (it should), the bleach does - quite effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 It was the clean-up. Helicopter view. From your article: WFAA-TV on Thursday posted a photo taken from its chopper of crews cleaning the sidewalk outside the apartment. It is unclear what they were cleaning or if it was even related to the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Yes that is what was said in the video. Hopefully for that grounds crew man it didn't splash up at his face. Hopefully no one walks through it and tracks it into their home. A woman was about to walk into it in the link I posted. In the video you posted, it appeared a different woman was walking through the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Also, the people cleaning should have been wearing hazmat suits. It seems the CDC should have sent a clean-up unit, not had what appears to be the apartment maintenance man clean it. I'll agree with this part. ;) But I think even an apartment maintenance man would have been ok with a hazmat suit to protect him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think he knew it was deadly and he'd have a better chance of survival in the US once he realized it wasn't a miscarriage, but that doesn't mean he knows all some are assuming he knew about how it starts/spreads or that medical professionals could be wrong. Just because someone speaks English, travels, and is intelligent doesn't mean they know everything about a disease. I suspect after the lady's death, he got worried and started making "Hail Mary" plans knowing only the headlines. When he started to get symptoms he sought medical help - and trusted their advice. I read about getting a visa to the US from Liberia. From the interview, it is a minimum of 3 working days to get the visa. The interviews are scheduled 3 months out. It seems unlikely that he managed to do all that after his exposure. (Not arguing with you. Just giving more supporting evidence for your point of view.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Water with bleach in it - the recommended killing method last I saw. If the water alone doesn't kill it (it should), the bleach does - quite effectively. What is your source? Not that bleach kills it, but that they used bleach? From your article: WFAA-TV on Thursday posted a photo taken from its chopper of crews cleaning the sidewalk outside the apartment. It is unclear what they were cleaning or if it was even related to the case. Really? You can't tell that is the same clean-up that RanchGirl posted the video of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Do you have a source for that? None of the reports I read have said anything about bleach being used. Also, the people cleaning should have been wearing hazmat suits. It seems the CDC should have sent a clean-up unit, not had what appears to be the apartment maintenance man clean it. http://news.yahoo.com/dallas-ebola-patient-vomited-outside-apartment-way-hospital-064730195--finance.html Every single picture I've seen of the man pressure washing has simply said that it is a picture of someone washing outside the building but has not said that it was specifically washing up the patient's vomit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I read about getting a visa to the US from Liberia. From the interview, it is a minimum of 3 working days to get the visa. The interviews are scheduled 3 months out. It seems unlikely that he managed to do all that after his exposure. (Not arguing with you. Just giving more supporting evidence for your point of view.) In general, I'd agree with you, but I also know that in some places there are ways to speed up processes, so I have to be neutral on that point - waiting to see more info. Since he had a girlfriend and child here, he may have already had the needed visa for travel pending his plans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 http://news.yahoo.com/dallas-ebola-patient-vomited-outside-apartment-way-hospital-064730195--finance.html Every single picture I've seen of the man pressure washing has simply said that it is a picture of someone washing outside the building but has not said that it was specifically washing up the patient's vomit. Thanks for the link. Glad to hear they were apparently using bleach, even if they were not wearing hazmat suits. Oh, the video said they were cleaning the vomit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RanchGirl Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creekland Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I agree with you about the Hail Mary. Regarding his level of knowledge, I'm not saying he knew everything there is to know about the disease, I'm suggesting that he at least knew it was contagious and therefore I find it reprehensible that he exposed his girlfriend/wife, and her/their children, his son, his brother, etc. When h1n1 was going around and I came down with a cough, I sequestered myself! That's all I am suggesting he could have done at the absolute bare minimum. That and tell the hospital he had been exposed to ebola since they didn't react properly when he mentioned West Africa. From what little knowledge I have about 2nd and 3rd world countries, many people there think the US is gold in more ways than one. He could have easily thought that once here things would be ok regardless of whether he or any of his family members got it. The doctors/nurse who came here survived, after all. I agree with you about what "I" would have done. I'm not really sure it occurred to him to do it. Family helps family in many cultures - no matter what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I just read this... not sure how true this one is, yet. 4 sheriff's deputies, health director, doctor, went into Ebola victim's apartment without protection last night, sheriff assoc says @NBCDFW— ScottGordonNBC5 (@ScottGordonNBC5) October 2, 2014 I was just wondering who served them the documents that said they have to stay quarantined. Well, that explains it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Food drop off: https://twitter.com/STEVEPICK11/status/517742154152943616/photo/1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 CBSDFW @CBSDFW · 2m 2 minutes ago3 children from Wallace Elementary in Richardson ISD sent home today. They are on the contact list for the #Dallas #Ebola patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 NPR said it was police that were reinforcing quarantine and keeping them inside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoEdgedSword Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I haven't read all the posts here, but I've not seen any indication in the news how/why he had contact with 5 kids from 4 different schools. Mostly family? Anyone know more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 MORE: At least 2 DCSO patrol cars now quarantined, deputies sent home, told to bag uniforms. — ScottGordonNBC5 (@ScottGordonNBC5) October 2, 2014 Is this stuff I'm reading true?? Please tell me it's not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 NPR said it was police that were reinforcing quarantine and keeping them inside. They went inside the apartment that hadn't been cleaned? That added more contacts. The person who served them... another contact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Look at this! http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/03/us/tracing-ebola-contacts-can-stop-virus-in-its-tracks-experts-say.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.®ion=Footer&module=MoreInSection&pgtype=article Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Not everyone who has had contact will get ebola. They are being very cautious. I don't know if others will get it. I would surmise that people in that specific apartment would be at highest risk. But if someone being monitored shows signs then I think it will be taken seriously now and treatment will be immediate - at least I hope (though obviously my opinion doesn't guarantee anything). Which is a very good thing. Right now every single virus etc. (ie. even ones that are not ebola) are going to cause a panic at first in any of those monitored people. But chances are that not every symptom they have will turn out to be ebola. It will just have to be ruled out, that's all. The more information people have, the better. Those who are the most informed will be able to advocate best for themselves and will best be able to take precautions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Yeah I guess all the contaminated stuff, from bed clothing to everything else, remained there for days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 If this is how they handle ONE ebola patient, I don't even want to know how they are going to handle more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Lulu* Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think he knew it was deadly and he'd have a better chance of survival in the US once he realized it wasn't a miscarriage, but that doesn't mean he knows all some are assuming he knew about how it starts/spreads or that medical professionals could be wrong. Just because someone speaks English, travels, and is intelligent doesn't mean they know everything about a disease. I suspect after the lady's death, he got worried and started making "Hail Mary" plans knowing only the headlines. When he started to get symptoms he sought medical help - and trusted their advice. "Just because someone speaks English, travels, and is intelligent doesn't mean they know everything about a disease." No joke. I mean how many of us reasonably well educated English speakers on this board have learned that things we believed to be true about Ebola or H1N1 or vaccines or some other medical thing were wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I can only hope they learn from their mistakes. I don't think anyone is arguing at this point that they didn't make a number of mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 This evening I heard on NBC news that the cameraman with Dr. Nancy Snyderman in Liberia has just tested positive for ebola and will be brought back to the US on a chartered flight. If ebola is so hard to catch through casual contact how did he manage to get it? http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/nbc-news-freelancer-africa-diagnosed-ebola-n217271 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umsami Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 There was an interesting interview with an infectious disease specialist who dealt with the first outbreak of a similar disease (Marburg virus) in Germany. It's very interesting to hear why he doesn't think it will be a problem in the US. Of course, I can't find it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 This evening I heard on NBC news that the cameraman with Dr. Nancy Snyderman in Liberia has just tested positive for ebola and will be brought back to the US on a chartered flight. If ebola is so hard to catch through casual contact how did he manage to get it? http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebola-virus-outbreak/nbc-news-freelancer-africa-diagnosed-ebola-n217271 He's been there for 3 years. I'm sure that length of time provides a lot more chances for exposure even if contact is casual. He's done all the right things and is not afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Yes, and the fact that he quit his job suddenly without any notice is also indicative of the "Hail Mary" mentioned earlier. The New York Times says he quit his job September 4th. He wasn't exposed until September 15th. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/world/africa/ebola-victim-texas-thomas-eric-duncan.html?_r=0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only me Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 What concerns me a bit is the whole fever thing. Even if he was fever free when he boarded the plane isn't there a chance that he could have started one while on the flight. I'm assuming it was a pretty long flight so several hours. I know it's a completely different situation but I think about my daughter and her current illness. She went to school on Monday morning. She was a bit tired but that isn't unusual since she has insomnia. I think she may have had some minor cold type symptoms bit nothing that would put up a red flag that she was getting the flu. She usually doesn't fall asleep until at least 1 or 2 so I'm pretty sure she would have noticed a high fever if she had developed one by that time on Monday night. By 5 am she was spiking a 103 fever! So I find it quite possible that this man could have boarded without a fever and developed one before the end of the flight. Then would he have been contagious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katy Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Apparently you get the fever first, but you're not contagious until GI symptoms start (vomiting, diarrhea). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Very disturbing: http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/02/us/texas-woman-quarantine-ebola-thomas-duncan/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trish Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 I can only hope they learn from their mistakes. I don't think anyone is arguing at this point that they didn't make a number of mistakes. I don't know, people were speaking pretty confidently yesterday about how we didn't need to worry because it's hard to transmit, CDC has it under control, blah blah blah. They sounded like press releases for the CDC, but not realistic in terms of what could actually happen. Time will tell, but I think it wouldn't hurt anyone to stock up on food supplies and masks/wipes "just in case." If that's "freaking out," so be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 This article has details about the man's movements and insight into his thinking and experience here. http://online.wsj.com/articles/dallas-man-says-u-s-ebola-victim-had-been-ill-1412270496 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 Was he there when she died, or when the brother died? If his only contact was the taxi incident, it is entirely possible he didn't know exactly what the problem was. Personally, I suspect he knew he had been exposed. Whether he planned the trip to the US before or after exposure, he would have followed through knowing he had been exposed in the hope of escaping the disease or, if he caught it, having a better chance of survival. How many of us would lie if we thought we had a 70% chance of dying if we didn't lie, and a much better chance at life if we did? I wonder how many Liberians have left the country. I suspect many of those who have the means to get out--visas, relatives in other countries, money for a plane ticket--are doing so. I don't blame them, them will to live is not something to be ignored. I've not read all replies, so sorry if this is a repeat that others have already said. Since "authorities" keep saying it is not very contagious except via close body fluid contact, that you cannot get it just being in the same air space, he might have thought he was not exposed. It sounds like he was just in the same air space plus had contact to help carry the person, but no body fluid to body fluid contact as one would normally understand that idea. If he really thought he was exposed, even if he was trying to get out to where there would be better care, I am not sure he would have been putting his family at risk as much as he did. If he were trying to get care for himself and suspected ebola, he might have told the doctors etc. that he had been in Liberia and so on multiple times, not just told that to one intake nurse, so as to get care for himself as much and as soon as possible from his first trip to hospital. Or even gone sooner at the first sign of fever. The doctors who have gotten it, when interviewed apparently say that all protocols were followed perfectly, with no accidents. So apparently it is more easily spread, by some means, than the official belief/statements about the spread suggests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 This story has some more info? http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-ebola-nephew-sought-cdc-help-story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted October 3, 2014 Share Posted October 3, 2014 The doctors who have gotten it, when interviewed apparently say that all protocols were followed perfectly, with no accidents. So apparently it is more easily spread, by some means, than the official belief/statements about the spread suggests. But protocols in Liberia are not at all the same as protocols in a modern US hospital, as people have repeatedly pointed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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