Good update in first post: Conflict between young adult siblings = my heart is hurting

[Kassia]

 

Update - all was well when dd's brothers left.  It was like nothing happened.  I hope dd learned something from this and am very relieved that the visit ended so well. 

As always, a huge thank you to all who posted to offer advice, support, opinions, experiences, etc.  I appreciate you all so much.  ❤️  

 

 

 

Short version - how do you help facilitate conflict resolution without betraying trust/confidence given to you from each child?  

 

Longer (I'll try to keep it brief):

 

My four kids are all home together this weekend and it's very rare that they are all here at the same time.

There has never been conflict between them before (except for when they were very little) and I'm an only child.  I have no idea how to handle this and I hate what is happening and it's so unexpected - my kids usually get along so well and are thrilled to spend time together.

Ds1 (31) isn't a good communicator when he's at a distance.  When he's face to face, he's super friendly and chatty but he's still not the best relationship person for the most part.  Dd (almost 20) has been hurt that he doesn't keep in touch with her, respond to her, etc.  Apparently, she sent him a long text a week before he came home expressing her feelings of feeling excluded and ignored.  He responded and didn't hear back from her.  

There was a problem with this yesterday with her feeling excluded and she went to her room the rest of the day.  Ds talked to me about it and told me about the text and said he'd make an effort to communicate and include her more at home.  He did that but a couple of things came up where he said things the wrong way and dd got offended and was kind of nasty to him and then went to her room.  I spoke with her and she said she removes herself to avoid saying anything else nasty because she can't help herself.  She told me some other things about the situation as well as far as how she feels and examples of what is hurting her. 

Ds1 continued to try today and dd would be fine but then something he would say would trigger her and she would once again say something nasty and leave.  At this point, he's understandably frustrated and doesn't want to try anymore because she's making the situation worse with her behavior.  I don't feel comfortable talking to him about her behind her back and I don't feel comfortable talking to her about him either as far as negative things.  Like ds1 can be difficult as far as being kind of selfish/self-centered/arrogant but I don't want to say that to dd - I just said something like "each of our family members have very distinct personalities" and talked about acceptance in relationships.  I reminded her that he loves her and made this trip especially to see her (this is true - they planned this trip while she's home for the summer just to see her).  But she's being immature and moody and is stuck in her belief that he doesn't like her, rejects her, ignores her, etc.  

Not sure if all of this makes sense.  I just want this to all be resolved before everyone leaves tomorrow and I don't see how it will be.  I've never experienced anything like this before and don't know how to handle it.  Each comes to me complaining about the other and I want to help and express my support in their valid feelings and give advice on how to resolve it without saying anything negative about the other sibling or share what they have shared with me.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by Kassia

[Catwoman]

I’m so sorry this is happening, but from what you have said, your DS is trying his best to work things out with his sister, so I think he deserves support and acknowledgment from you.

Your DD sounds like maybe something else in her life is making her unhappy, and she’s taking it out on her brother, so if I were you, I would  try to address that with her, rather than commiserate with her about her brother, because it sounds like he’s trying his best — and your DD’s expectations of him may be unreasonable.

[DreamerGirl]

Stay out of it.

Listen but do not say anything. 

Most of all, do not take sides unless it is absolutely essential.

My relationship with my brother though we have not lived in the same country for going two decades is incredibly close. It is not linear, we have gone through ups and downs, but it has endured because we had to find a way to do it our way and accommodating our needs, our lives and our personalities. No one, not spouses or parents can define it for us.

Edited July 10, 2022 by DreamerGirl

[Indigo Blue]

8 minutes ago, Kassia said:

I don't feel comfortable talking to him about her behind her back and I don't feel comfortable talking to her about him

I just wanted to say I think this is wise.
 

I’m sorry, Kassia. This would be very hard for me, too. I wish I had more advice. 

 

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I'd bring them together and discuss it.

I'd tell them that it is obvious that they both value their relationship, and they both want to improve the communication.

I'd say, 'let's brainstorm ways to make this better for both of you'.

[freesia]

I wish I had advice for you. I think you are handling it really well so far. You shouldn’t get involved in being the go between, that’s for sure. Keep validating each of them and assuring them of each other’s love. That’s good. From an adult sibling point of view, I can say that sometimes conflicts happen, sometimes space and maturity help ( as in my SIL who lived with my MIL when we had to move in for seven months with three little ones. She and her dh were supposed to have moved out before we got there. No kidding, neither of them said a word to any of us for the full seven months. It was nuts. Now she is an uber attentive, loving aunt. She just had maturing to do.) 

With my family we kind of just accept the differences, stay at separate homes so we don’t run too much ( at the beach or my moms) and then have space. I don’t text at all with my brothers but I know they know I love them. I text all the time with SIL. 
 

Anyway, the less you get involved the better. It never went well when my mom tried to insert herself in our sibling relationships. Chances are it will work out. Even my mom and her brother who were at odds birth through age 60 ish still saw each other at their mom’s. She was the hub. When she died, my uncle still keeps in touch and my mom likes hearing from him. She just wouldn’t want to live with him. 

[freesia]

7 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

I’m so sorry this is happening, but from what you have said, your DS is trying his best to work things out with his sister, so I think he deserves support and acknowledgment from you.

Your DD sounds like maybe something else in her life is making her unhappy, and she’s taking it out on her brother, so if I were you, I would  try to address that with her, rather than commiserate with her about her brother, because it sounds like he’s trying his best — and your DD’s expectations of him may be unreasonable.

Good point!

[freesia]

6 minutes ago, DreamerGirl said:

Stay out of it.

Listen but do not say anything. 

Most of all, do not take sides unless it is absolutely essential.

My relationship with my brother though we have not lived in the same country for going two decades is incredibly close. It is not linear, we have gone through ups and downs, but it has endured because we had to find a way to do it our way and accommodating our needs, our lives and our personalities. No one, not spouses or parents can define it for us.

This is what so started to say but lost my thought-yes, ebbs and flows in sibling relationships are common and natural. As they go through different adult stages that will continue. 

[Kassia]

5 minutes ago, freesia said:

This is what so started to say but lost my thought-yes, ebbs and flows in sibling relationships are common and natural. As they go through different adult stages that will continue. 

What I'm afraid of is that he will leave tomorrow and then we won't see him again until Thanksgiving or Christmas.  Since he's not good at communicating at a distance, I feel like this is just going to fester.  Before she was lashing out at him, he said he would make a special effort to keep in touch with her even if it just meant sending snapchats or a quick text or something like that but now I don't think he's going to feel like doing that since his efforts have basically snubbed.  

[catz]

This is unfortunate!  It reminds me of some situations I've been through or seen young people go through.

One thing is that some people are just not that great in keeping in touch all the time when they are away.  Like my son as he has gone through college went from texting us daily to us scheduling a once week zoom that occassionally gets missed when he has a conflict.  We still may text occassionally but he is just not watching for random texts all the time, will see something and forget if it's not pressing, and is very engaged and busy with what he is doing day to day.  But he is always happy to be home and is super sweet and engaged when he is here.    

So I mean unless you think your son is being malicious, it might be good to remind your daughter that maybe he is doing the best he can with the time he has available when he is away.  She can only control herself and cannot dictate how others live their life day to day.  It is sweet he planned to be home when she is.  Like it sounds like maybe she wants an older sibling sounding board all the time and maybe he isn't that guy.  And maybe something else is going on with her that is making her extra touchy too.  Like maybe she is imagining a relationship that isn't going to exist because his personality is what it is.  s

I mean I'd be sensitive about getting involved too but if maybe your daughter was angry and wanting to talk about it.  And actually when I do talk to my young people, I often do wrapped in a story about MYSELF and what I find helpful for me in certain situations.  Not "you need to do this and that".   That doesn't mean older brother is perfect of course.  And I wonder exactly how she is feeling excluded.  Like is he spending time with friends, other siblings, etc while he is there?  Becuase that also seems fair that he'd want to do a mix of things while he is in town.  If he's like doing things with both other siblings and JUST excluding her that would seem odd.   Making every interaction miserable is not going to make him want to stay in touch or make the memory of this trip great such that he'd arrange the same set up again.  Relationships need to be net positive on both ends to maintain well.  

I've just found I'm a lot happier in life in general if I work from an assumption that most people are generally not intentionally malicious but are just doing the best they can with their time, energy, resources, etc.  

[Bambam]

First, I have no idea if I am doing this right at all. 
Second, I know that is super hard to watch as a mom.

I have taken one adult kid to lunch, told them I was going to tell them something about themselves that no one else would but that might be impacting their relationship with others (this was not a sibling thing, but was impacting her relationship with her boyfriend and friends). I told her I was just going to talk, and then I was going to leave it alone. I told her no one else would probably ever tell her, but they would just start drifting away/avoiding her. I was telling her - not to get in her business, but because I didn't think she realized what she was doing nor the impact it had on others, and the only person who would tell her was me.  I mentioned what I thought she was doing, mentioned two specific examples, and then said, "I'm done. Let's eat the rest of our lunch and talk about more enjoyable things." Fortunately for me, child did see what I was saying, decided I was right and she just did not realize how she had been treating others, and decided to watch herself and attempt to correct/control that particular tendency. I do have a history of telling children that I will mention this once, and then we will not discuss it again - unless you want to do so.  In hindsight, probably a public place was not the ideal setting for this discussion.  It is quite possible this only worked because this child is very logical/rational/reasonable (most of the time!) It is quite possible this was the wrong thing to do, but fortunately it worked out for us anyway. 

 

[freesia]

1 minute ago, Kassia said:

What I'm afraid of is that he will leave tomorrow and then we won't see him again until Thanksgiving or Christmas.  Since he's not good at communicating at a distance, I feel like this is just going to fester.  Before she was lashing out at him, he said he would make a special effort to keep in touch with her even if it just meant sending snapchats or a quick text or something like that but now I don't think he's going to feel like doing that since his efforts have basically snubbed.  

You know, it is very possible that that is ok. The space might be good for them. You can encourage your dd not to let it fester. It’s ok if they don’t communicate between visits. It’s not her preference, but it’s ok. She can chose to see this all in a different way. I know I said stay out of it, but if she complains about it to you, I’d be tempted to say gently that an apology might help. 

[Katy]

I would do what I can to stay out of it, other than ask what they are going to do and maybe bring up the book Love Languages and ask if that is the problem. 

[HomeAgain]

I think it's fine to be an ear or a shoulder to lean on, but you really need to communicate to each of the adults that they have a responsibility.  What does your dd hope to have happen?  How can she facilitate that?  It's fine she spoke her feelings, but until she's using her actions to respond to the immediate, it's not going to do any good. 

[Kassia]

5 minutes ago, catz said:

 

One thing is that some people are just not that great in keeping in touch all the time when they are away.  Like my son as he has gone through college went from texting us daily to us scheduling a once week zoom that occassionally gets missed when he has a conflict.  We still may text occassionally but he is just not watching for random texts all the time, will see something and forget if it's not pressing, and is very engaged and busy with what he is doing day to day.  But he is always happy to be home and is super sweet and engaged when he is here.    

 Like it sounds like maybe she wants an older sibling sounding board all the time and maybe he isn't that guy. 

  Like is he spending time with friends, other siblings, etc while he is there?  Becuase that also seems fair that he'd want to do a mix of things while he is in town.  If he's like doing things with both other siblings and JUST excluding her that would seem odd.   Making every interaction miserable is not going to make him want to stay in touch or make the memory of this trip great such that he'd arrange the same set up again.  Relationships need to be net positive on both ends to maintain well.  

 

Your ds sounds exactly like my ds1 as far as communicating from a distance.  

Dd communicates with her other two older brothers pretty much daily in some way.  I know she doesn't expect that from ds1 but I think she wants more than he's used to doing.  When he's home, he definitely includes her in everything he does - working out, playing games, etc.  He probably talks more to one brother than everyone else because they have more in common and that brother is definitely the closest to all the siblings.  He's not singling her out in any way.  

She is definitely making the situation worse with her behavior and he's only going to be less likely to want to communicate with her in the future.  I feel so bad about it all.  Maybe one of the other two brothers will get involved to smooth things over somehow.  

 

3 minutes ago, freesia said:

You know, it is very possible that that is ok. The space might be good for them. You can encourage your dd not to let it fester. It’s ok if they don’t communicate between visits. It’s not her preference, but it’s ok. She can chose to see this all in a different way. I know I said stay out of it, but if she complains about it to you, I’d be tempted to say gently that an apology might help. 

The problem is that she thinks he owes her an apology.  I never saw it that way - only that he would need to make an effort to increase communication in the future with her if he wanted to make her happy - but now it's at the point where she owes him an apology and that isn't going to happen.  

[City Mouse]

I will probably get beat up got this, but here it goes.

I don’t know. Does everyone just assume that adult siblings should have close relationships? I don’t come from a family like that. A 30 yr old has is own life. your home isn’t his “home” anymore. He includes her when he visits. Isn’t that good enough? Your DD is 20 and still lives with mom and dad. They aren’t in the same same stage of life. I wouldn’t expect them to necessarily be super close. 

[Kassia]

1 minute ago, City Mouse said:

I will probably get beat up got this, but here it goes.

I don’t know. Does everyone just assume that adult siblings should have close relationships? I don’t come from a family like that. A 30 yr old has is own life. your home isn’t his “home” anymore. He includes her when he visits. Isn’t that good enough? Your DD is 20 and still lives with mom and dad. They aren’t in the same same stage of life. I wouldn’t expect them to necessarily be super close. 

They don't need to be close but I don't want animosity between them.  😞 She's away most of the year at college and her brothers made a special effort to visit this summer while she's home.  

 

[Lecka]

My husband has a poor relationship with his sister and we’re at the point where neither one is interested in anything beyond:  trying to get along at family events.  

 

I think they are both doing very well to get along at family events.  
 

There is a ton of bad blood and grievance…. Just for example, my husband really hit it off with my SIL’s 2nd husband and is still Facebook friends with him.  SIL is so angry about this.  Well — neither is going to change on this.  The second husband is still in contact with two of his former step-kids, too, and probably will be with the 3rd when he’s older.  They were married 5 years and people made their own relationships with him,  but I can totally see her side of being upset people are maintaining a relationship with him after the divorce.

 

But I think at a certain point siblings may or may not get along well.  But with maturity really might need to get along for family events around their parents.  
 

I think sometimes reality is a sibling realizing the sibling isn’t going to be the sibling some lucky friends have, and isn’t going to fulfill a wished-for sibling relationship.

 

Well — that’s too bad, but it may be reality.  And at that point I think it is maturity to make the best of things at family events and not drag parents into things.

 

My husband and his sister still have a lot of shared history and they both really care about their younger brother.  I don’t think they will ever be on good, close terms.  But being able

to get along for the sake of greater family relationships I think is something where they are both that mature and don’t expect each other to be able to fulfill an ideal relationship that just isn’t realistic for them.  
 

 

[freesia]

17 minutes ago, Kassia said:

 

Your ds sounds exactly like my ds1 as far as communicating from a distance.  

Dd communicates with her other two older brothers pretty much daily in some way.  I know she doesn't expect that from ds1 but I think she wants more than he's used to doing.  When he's home, he definitely includes her in everything he does - working out, playing games, etc.  He probably talks more to one brother than everyone else because they have more in common and that brother is definitely the closest to all the siblings.  He's not singling her out in any way.  

She is definitely making the situation worse with her behavior and he's only going to be less likely to want to communicate with her in the future.  I feel so bad about it all.  Maybe one of the other two brothers will get involved to smooth things over somehow.  

 

The problem is that she thinks he owes her an apology.  I never saw it that way - only that he would need to make an effort to increase communication in the future with her if he wanted to make her happy - but now it's at the point where she owes him an apology and that isn't going to happen.  

Well, yes, of course she wants an apology . But she can only do what she can do. She’s the one who wants something. She, like all 20 year olds, has some maturing to do. That’s why I think if she mentions it, you should gently tell her that. She doesn’t have to listen. But I think it should be said. 

[fraidycat]

I wouldn't "both sides" it. I would not talk about one to the other, but I would talk about MY perception of what is going on and point blank tell DD that she is actively manifesting her own reality of distance/exclusion. If nothing her brother does is good enough for her, then he rightfully will step away from making any effort. It's up to her to decide if that is the path she wants to stay on or if she wants to apologize and make effort to repair the relationship. Then, I would step out. The ball is in her court.

[Sneezyone]

No help, just commiseration. I think I have a decent relationship with my sibs but my brother definitely makes more overtures than I do and keeps up with significant dates (largely birthdays) more than I do. I’m more like our dad/sister. Random hello’s and how are you’s mean more to me. I don’t take it personally when either don’t happen. I hope it’s as trivial as that b/c I feel like that can be overcome with maturity and time. We’re not all in the same place in life at the same time . If it’s  beyond that, like sibs feeling invalidated, always, that’s a bigger kettle of fish.

Edited July 10, 2022 by Sneezyone

[chocolate-chip chooky]

I would usually agree to keep out of it, because these aren't children any more.

However, both of them have involved @Kassia  so both seem to value her input.

On top of that, there's the short timeframe to try to smooth this, if not fix it.

I think that acknowledging that people have different communication styles is important. Young adults may not really truly appreciate this yet.

I feel for you. I hope it all works out as best as it can.🌻

[Mrs Tiggywinkle]

I think there’s a big difference in almost 20 and 31 year old siblings. Even if he was good at keeping in touch long distance, I’m sure he’s very busy with his own life and career and friends.  Also, almost 20 is a tough age and probably immature and not understanding what full adult life is like.

I think I’d encourage DD to mature just a little and be more understanding. Some people just aren’t good at keeping in touch and, frankly, the decade of life he’s in is a very busy one.

I have a lot of siblings. I’m closest to the two that are closest in age, though now that one who is 14 years younger has moved back to the area we are spending some time together.  Still completely different stages of life.  I probably haven’t talked to my youngest sister except via group chat in a year, but I’m almost 17 years older than her and she lives on the opposite coast.  I think it’s normal, especially given the age differences.

[Kassia]

1 minute ago, Mrs Tiggywinkle said:

I think there’s a big difference in almost 20 and 31 year old siblings. .. Also, almost 20 is a tough age and probably immature and not understanding what full adult life is like.

I think I’d encourage DD to mature just a little and be more understanding. Some people just aren’t good at keeping in touch and, frankly, the decade of life he’s in is a very busy one.

 

I agree about the big difference in age and maturity and place in life.  I think she just wants him to show an interest in her life but he's not good with that with anyone.  He's just not that kind of person.  

I do wonder if the behavior she's showing now is why she and her ex broke up a few months ago.  As in maybe she was being unreasonable in her expectations.  He's such a good guy and is/was so devoted to her but I don't know what caused the break up - only that she initiated it.  

[scholastica]

It sounds like there’s a lot of history between them that she’s holding onto. Until she’s ready to process that with him in a healthy way, this cycle will continue. She has feelings she can’t express in a healthy way, so it leaks out in an unhealthy way. 
There’s also a vast difference in maturity and life experience between 20 and 31. She really has some growing up to do.  She may need some counseling to learn how to identify, regulate and communicate her emotions in healthy ways.

[freesia]

1 minute ago, Kassia said:

I agree about the big difference in age and maturity and place in life.  I think she just wants him to show an interest in her life but he's not good with that with anyone.  He's just not that kind of person.  

I do wonder if the behavior she's showing now is why she and her ex broke up a few months ago.  As in maybe she was being unreasonable in her expectations.  He's such a good guy and is/was so devoted to her but I don't know what caused the break up - only that she initiated it.  

I’ve actually been wondering a bit about this. Something seems to be triggering her. 

[Arcadia]

I am guessing that being the only girl and the youngest might make her used to getting more attention from her three older brothers. My brother is 8.5 years younger. I was “babysitting” him until I graduated from college. At 30, I was looking at paying mortgages and finding a better job so at a different stage of life than my brother. I think your oldest son made an earnest effort to your daughter but her expectations is high. 
Being the youngest granddaughter on both sides, I was definitely doted upon. That did cause issues going into boy girl relationships. I was lucky that all my breakups were amiable and they are still friends. My exbfs all married “low maintenance” wives.

[lmrich]

She is almost 20 and he is 31! They would have a hard time communicating even if they were the best in the world. I  would remind your ds to keep trying and remind him of his sister's age. I would then encourage the dd to try to understand  how communication is not his strong  point. 

Or stay out of it altogether  - this too shall pass - she will mature and learn to  accept her brother and understand his lack of communication  is not directed her (unless it is..)

[Jean in Newcastle]

She can't bully him into giving her the relationship that she wants.  Perhaps bully is too strong a word but again maybe it's not, because it very much seems (at least from an outside perspective) to be "her way or the highway".  He's tried to meet her partway but she seems unwilling (or perhaps unable) to meet him partway as well.  I would stay out of it.  You can't force them to sit on the couch and hold hands.  (A common advice I remember seeing on this board for young squabbling siblings.) 

[Catwoman]

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

What I'm afraid of is that he will leave tomorrow and then we won't see him again until Thanksgiving or Christmas.  Since he's not good at communicating at a distance, I feel like this is just going to fester.  Before she was lashing out at him, he said he would make a special effort to keep in touch with her even if it just meant sending snapchats or a quick text or something like that but now I don't think he's going to feel like doing that since his efforts have basically snubbed.  

 

1 hour ago, Kassia said:

They don't need to be close but I don't want animosity between them.  😞 She's away most of the year at college and her brothers made a special effort to visit this summer while she's home.  

 

Honestly, she is the one who is being unreasonable and stubborn, and if she was my kid, I would probably come right out and tell her that she doesn't get to run her older brother's life and she isn't in charge of when and how he communicates with her. I would also point out that he didn't need to come home at all, but he made a special trip to visit her, and that he has been going out of his way to be nice to her, and she should appreciate that, rather than acting like a spoiled brat and storming off to her room. (Ok, I might not use the "spoiled brat" part, but I would sure be thinking it! 😉 )

 

[Farrar]

First, agreeing with the mostly you support and stay out of it camp. My mother guilted me into forgiving my brother for all kinds of crap. Trust me when I say it didn't help.

Second, agreeing that there's nothing wrong with space. I think it's fair to tell her not to let it fester, but honestly, it sounds like space is her primary coping mechanism. Let her use it. 

Finally, I don't think we have the full picture, so while she does seem like she's the one who's being unfair to him right now, I don't really understand what he did to create the situation in the first place and I can envision lots of scenarios where she's really just drawing a healthy boundary around some very rude behavior. Like, you say he's trying, but if he's trying and making overtures and then repeating things that we'd all be shocked to hear a sibling saying to another, then that's pretty different than he's forgetting that she doesn't like to be called a nickname or she doesn't want to argue about a topic he loves discussing or something.

She does seem like her coping mechanisms and ability to navigate are more immature. But... you keep alluding to the idea that he can be difficult. That a 20 yo struggles to be super mature and perfect in how she deals with a difficult older brother doesn't seem surprising in the least. Most of us would struggle with that dynamic.

[Farrar]

Adding that I think the primary value to emphasize is grace. He needs to show grace that she's hurt and isn't just going to magically get over it, especially if he keeps slipping up and doing the things she complained about or is struggling to understand what she was upset about in the first place. She needs to show grace that he's trying, even if he keeps slipping up, and give credit for that, even if she's not ready to just move on. You can't wave a wand and make them feel that grace, but you can just keep repeating that basic message that it's good to assume good intentions and communicate with growth and patience in mind.

[Kassia]

53 minutes ago, scholastica said:

It sounds like there’s a lot of history between them that she’s holding onto. 

Interesting that you said that because she did say he's always treated her that way.  Certainly when she was little there were many times when she was annoying, irritating,whatever to him.  But overall he's been very good to her and went out of his way to be supportive.  We have no extended family and her brothers have been really good to her to fill that gap.  

 

28 minutes ago, lmrich said:

She is almost 20 and he is 31! They would have a hard time communicating even if they were the best in the world. I  would remind your ds to keep trying and remind him of his sister's age. I would then encourage the dd to try to understand  how communication is not his strong  point. 

Or stay out of it altogether  - this too shall pass - she will mature and learn to  accept her brother and understand his lack of communication  is not directed her (unless it is..)

Thank you.  These are good points about the differences between them and how I can remind each of them of those differences.  His lack of communication is definitely not directed at her.  I even get frustrated and even upset with ds1 about it at times but rarely express it.

 

17 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

Honestly, she is the one who is being unreasonable and stubborn, and if she was my kid, I would probably come right out and tell her that she doesn't get to run her older brother's life and she isn't in charge of when and how he communicates with her. I would also point out that he didn't need to come home at all, but he made a special trip to visit her, and that he has been going out of his way to be nice to her, and she should appreciate that, rather than acting like a spoiled brat and storming off to her room. (Ok, I might not use the "spoiled brat" part, but I would sure be thinking it! 😉 )

 

I agree about the way she's acting and I did point out that it was a big trip for ds1 to make to see her.  She's being ridiculously stubborn.  I'm used to it with me at times but not with a sibling.

 

[Sneezyone]

5 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Interesting that you said that because she did say he's always treated her that way.  Certainly when she was little there were many times when she was annoying, irritating,whatever to him.  But overall he's been very good to her and went out of his way to be supportive.  We have no extended family and her brothers have been really good to her to fill that gap.  

 

Thank you.  These are good points about the differences between them and how I can remind each of them of those differences.  His lack of communication is definitely not directed at her.  I even get frustrated and even upset with ds1 about it at times but rarely express it.

 

I agree about the way she's acting and I did point out that it was a big trip for ds1 to make to see her.  She's being ridiculously stubborn.  I'm used to it with me at times but not with a sibling.

 

To Farrar’s point, there are a lot of dynamics between siblings that we don’t notice or understand as parents. My kids are VERY bonded to/communicative with each other in ways that they’re not with DH and I, to the point where DD once told me (advice I heeded) to back off and let them sort things. I don’t think you can sub your understanding and feelings for theirs.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Sneezyone

[HS Mom in NC]

If it were me, I'd remind daughter (because she already talked to me about it) that she can't have her way in every particular. (Thank you, Rooster Cogburn for that insight in True Grit.) She wanted brother to respond and connect with her and he has responded in a reasonable way.  If she continues to reject people making a genuine effort  to connect with her, they'll see that her words may say one thing (let's connect) but her actions will say the opposite (I don't really want to connect you.) And we all know that actions speak louder than words. So the questions are, what does she really want and do her actions align with what she really wants? If they don't, it's time to adjust accordingly. Life is very lonely for people who reject attempts at connection from others just because it wasn't done exactly to their specifications. She doesn't get to dictate the details.

To son I would say that if he has made a genuine, reasonable effort to respond and connect with his sister, he's done his part and can enjoy a clear conscience. It's on her to respond appropriately and if she chooses not to, it's her problem. We can only control ourselves, not others.

 

Edited July 11, 2022 by HS Mom in NC

[Kassia]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

First, agreeing with the mostly you support and stay out of it camp. My mother guilted me into forgiving my brother for all kinds of crap. Trust me when I say it didn't help.

Second, agreeing that there's nothing wrong with space. I think it's fair to tell her not to let it fester, but honestly, it sounds like space is her primary coping mechanism. Let her use it. 

Finally, I don't think we have the full picture, so while she does seem like she's the one who's being unfair to him right now, I don't really understand what he did to create the situation in the first place and I can envision lots of scenarios where she's really just drawing a healthy boundary around some very rude behavior. Like, you say he's trying, but if he's trying and making overtures and then repeating things that we'd all be shocked to hear a sibling saying to another, then that's pretty different than he's forgetting that she doesn't like to be called a nickname or she doesn't want to argue about a topic he loves discussing or something.

She does seem like her coping mechanisms and ability to navigate are more immature. But... you keep alluding to the idea that he can be difficult. That a 20 yo struggles to be super mature and perfect in how she deals with a difficult older brother doesn't seem surprising in the least. Most of us would struggle with that dynamic.

Thank you.  He's just difficult in the sense that he can be very self-centered and arrogant.  But he would never do anything intentionally to hurt her and would go out of his way to avoid conflict.  He usually does well if someone communicates an issue with him - he may not agree but it doesn't become a big deal.  In fact, I was surprised and impressed with how willing he was to make an effort.  He may have been at fault before he knew her wishes/hurt feelings as far as not responding when she reached out to him but he seems to sincerely want to make changes in his behavior to make her happy.  That may change if she continues being so stubborn and rigid.  

[Kassia]

1 minute ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Life is very lonely for people who reject attempts at connection from others just because it wasn't done exactly to their specifications. 

 

This is what concerns me and is something I'll have to gently explore with her.  She's an introvert and I don't want her to be completely isolated from others.  

[Sneezyone]

2 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Thank you.  He's just difficult in the sense that he can be very self-centered and arrogant.  But he would never do anything intentionally to hurt her and would go out of his way to avoid conflict.  He usually does well if someone communicates an issue with him - he may not agree but it doesn't become a big deal.  In fact, I was surprised and impressed with how willing he was to make an effort.  He may have been at fault before he knew her wishes/hurt feelings as far as not responding when she reached out to him but he seems to sincerely want to make changes in his behavior to make her happy.  That may change if she continues being so stubborn and rigid.  

Yeah, this sounds like not just a DD thing and I’d stay out of it.

[fraidycat]

7 minutes ago, Kassia said:

Thank you.  He's just difficult in the sense that he can be very self-centered and arrogant.  But he would never do anything intentionally to hurt her and would go out of his way to avoid conflict.  He usually does well if someone communicates an issue with him - he may not agree but it doesn't become a big deal.  In fact, I was surprised and impressed with how willing he was to make an effort.  He may have been at fault before he knew her wishes/hurt feelings as far as not responding when she reached out to him but he seems to sincerely want to make changes in his behavior to make her happy.  That may change if she continues being so stubborn and rigid.  

Based on the info we have here in this thread, it sounds as if DD can be self-centered and arrogant, as well. Not just stubborn and rigid.

I wonder if DS earned those "descriptions" when he was at the same age DD is now and has since outgrown those qualities that DD has now grown into. It is often hardest for us older family members to "update" our perceptions and memories of "who they are" when it comes to the younger gen. I catch myself doing it with my kids and niece and nephew more than I care to admit. I still "give them" their childhood/teen qualities in my head when they are all getting to late teens/early adulthood and have matured in some significant ways. I observe my other family members doing the same thing.

[stephanier.1765]

@Kassia I am so sorry! I know how thrilled you were to see them all this weekend. It is quite possible her feelings are still twisted and tender from her breakup, even if she doesn't recognize it that way. She just might really need to feel loved right now by her brothers, by everyone, because she is so heart sore. I do hope they find someway to resolve  their issue so it doesn't drag out and drag you along with it. Hugs to you!

[DreamerGirl]

OP, stay out of it as it has the potential to affect your relationship with both of them. If you bring both of them together and play mediator you run the risk of your 30 year old thinking you are infantilizing him at the minimum.

I cannot speak for how your 20 year old may react, but when I was out of the house at a much younger age and an independent adult by every metric I tended to not react well at people who were well intentioned but I perceived as treating me like a child.

A sibling IMO is one of the best people to practice relationships on when it comes to boundaries, especially as young adults navigating the world. You as a parent do not see the world like they do. Siblings are in most cases safe people we grew up with, who know us, love us and yet will tell us exactly how they feel if we push them.  

Let this play out between them. Listen and do not say anything.

It is healthier for both of them if they figure it out by themselves and will help when it comes to relationships with each other and even others in my experience.

[Kassia]

28 minutes ago, fraidycat said:

 

I wonder if DS earned those "descriptions" when he was at the same age DD is now and has since outgrown those qualities that DD has now grown into. 

No, those personality traits have been there since he was a child and continues today.  I love him because I'm his mom and I'm in awe of his long-time gf for putting up with him for so long.  🙂  He can be wonderful and thoughtful at times, though, and those times are very sweet.  

 

20 minutes ago, stephanier.1765 said:

 It is quite possible her feelings are still twisted and tender from her breakup, even if she doesn't recognize it that way. She just might really need to feel loved right now by her brothers, by everyone, because she is so heart sore.

That's a good point.  ❤️

 

11 minutes ago, DreamerGirl said:

 

A sibling IMO is one of the best people to practice relationships on when it comes to boundaries, especially as young adults navigating the world. You as a parent do not see the world like they do. Siblings are in most cases safe people we grew up with, who know us, love us and yet will tell us exactly how they feel if we push them.  

 

Also a good point that I hadn't thought of but is so true.  

[BlsdMama]

I would speak to each one about what they can do themselves but no more. And my advice to DD would be that she is easily offended and looks for offense and it is a terrible character flaw that she can help because our actions don’t “have” to be driven by our feelings and we can steer our feelings rather than believe we are a helpless victim of our feelings. And, on that note, that advice wasn’t contrived for this instance. 👀 With that said, I feel for you. Moms want their kids to get along. One great joy is having everyone under one roof and enjoying it.  

[maize]

My guess is that this is mostly about immaturity and maybe some not-great-mental-health on your daughter's part.

I'm sorry it may not resolve right now and is causing strain during this short time together, but it also doesn't necessarily mean poor relationships in the future. She needs a bit of time and maturity. I have much better relationships now with several younger siblings who went through...rocky...periods in young adulthood when they were not great at relationships. They grew out of it.

Learning to relate to siblings as adults is a bit of a struggle for many I think. 

[Kassia]

18 minutes ago, BlsdMama said:

 And my advice to DD would be that she is easily offended and looks for offense and it is a terrible character flaw that she can help because our actions don’t “have” to be driven by our feelings and we can steer our feelings rather than believe we are a helpless victim of our feelings. And, on that note, that advice wasn’t contrived for this instance. 👀 With that said, I feel for you. Moms want their kids to get along. One great joy is having everyone under one roof and enjoying it.  

Thanks.  I do have to say that I've never seen her easily offended - in fact, sometimes she seems to be overly tolerant of behavior that others wouldn't put up with (I'm mostly thinking of some inconsiderate roommates she lived with in college but other situations as well).  So this reaction was really surprising to me.  She expressed something to me about her feelings before the visit but I didn't realize how strongly she felt - I thought she was more annoyed rather than upset and hurt.  Looking back, I wish I had taken it more seriously at the time - maybe this could have been avoided.  

[Sneezyone]

Make of this what u will…

my DD approached me a couple weeks back and said she felt like DH was generally dismissive/disrespectful of me/my efforts at home. She gave specific examples. I was surprised (putting it mildly). I’m not about to pretend he hasn’t been, at times, but I know he’s a million times better and more supportive than most men. I listened to DD and didn’t say much, just thanks for sharing. I’ve been with DH for 26 years and don’t expect him to do/be more than he can do/is but DD expects more. AS SHE SHOULD. She expects him to live up to the standards we espouse for DS (he doesn’t). I shared that with DH and he went ballistic. It took two days for him to reflect and see the merit in her critique. He may never fully agree but he appreciated that her perspective is ultimately legit too.

Sometimes, when we are used to working with/accommodating difficult behaviors/traits,  we don’t appreciate that everyone either isn’t willing to or will refuse to do the same.

If your son is as challenging as you say, your DD may have valid concerns. The frequency (vs quality) of comms may be the least of those.

Edited July 11, 2022 by Sneezyone

[happi duck]

(hugs)

Edited July 11, 2022 by happi duck

[LMD]

Just like she wants to feel loved and accepted, she's going to have to accept and make peace within herself about who her brother actually is - he's not the image she has in her head, for better or worse. She's not wrong for expressing her feelings or setting a boundary, but it's not going to magic away 31 years of personality.

I'd probably not say much, maybe something small to ds that recognises & thanks him for his efforts and encourages him that she'll come around (without trashing her). I might say something brief to the effect of the first paragraph to dd. I'd let go of expectations of 'fixing' anything - especially with pressure of a time limit, just let them decompress. 

Fwiw - dh had an argument and hung up on his sister (both in 40s) a few days ago. They see each other every few months, mostly enjoy each other's company, and are both not the easiest people to get along with 😄 They would absolutely move heaven and earth for each other. 

[TechWife]

6 hours ago, Kassia said:

What I'm afraid of is that he will leave tomorrow and then we won't see him again until Thanksgiving or Christmas.  Since he's not good at communicating at a distance, I feel like this is just going to fester.  Before she was lashing out at him, he said he would make a special effort to keep in touch with her even if it just meant sending snapchats or a quick text or something like that but now I don't think he's going to feel like doing that since his efforts have basically snubbed.  

I’m having a reaction to this need on personal experience. I’ll explain some details after I give my advice. Their relationship is their responsibility, not yours. If it festers, it’s their problem, not yours. I think you shouldn’t mediate between them. You need to have your own relationships with them, not be cast as a peacekeeper.   I wouldn’t reach out to her either if I were him. He doesn’t have to put up with her lashing out at him. He should feel free to set whatever boundaries he needs to in order to protect himself from further unnecessary attacks. She needs help of some kind to figure out how to communicate and set her own boundaries.  My siblings & I have complex relationships. I have a sibling that lashes out at he rest of us. She is sixty years old and almost all of us are done trying to placate her - no walking on eggshells anymore. Sixty years is enough. She would have been better served if the boundaries had been put in place decades ago and if she’d learned some tools to manage her emotions. 

[Elizabeth86]

No advice because mine are still little. I just wanted to offer a hug. I can't image how this makes you feel. You always come across as such a sweet lady in all the replies I've ever read from you. So sorry they are breaking your heart like that. ❤️