Question, especially if you are a non-Christian religion or agnostic or atheist

[Granny_Weatherwax]

With the examples you gave, that has only happened with people I actually know not random strangers on the phone or in line at Aldi. It's one (small) reason I left the church (any church). There were families who were always saying things like "God put his hand of protection on us and kept us safe from the tornado. God is so good." while the Christian sitting across from them lost everything in the tornado and wondered where the hand of protection was. Or similar things with illness. The best one was a young Christian girl who thought she was pregnant and was praising Jesus for a negative pregnancy test. I am not joking. It wasn't just like 'oh, thank God.' It was literally a "Thank you, Jesus, for keeping me out of that situation." No change in behavior, though, or wondering why Jesus needed to help her out of that situation in the first place.

[J-rap]

9 hours ago, MEmama said:

I don’t encounter it much irl. 

I grew up in a super liberal area of Northern California and religion just wasn’t part of the landscape. I’ve had a few brushes with outward religion since then, but very few overtly uncomfortable interactions. I do know religious people, of course, but it certainly isn’t talked about or assumed where I live now, or most places I’ve lived outside of specific personal conversations. The only place I’ve lived where active Christianity was assumed was in eastern Canada, which surprised me because I hadn’t encountered that before.

Mostly I think I’m just pretty unaware because religion isn’t on my radar at all. The kind of sprinkling religion into conversations happens more on these boards than anywhere I’ve encountered in my real life; like with political leanings there is a lot of the signaling here that @Eos mentioned. I suspect religion plays such a huge role (from how it’s frequently discussed) in some people’s lives they are unaware that it simply doesn’t exist for everyone and don’t always realize how frequently it permeates their posts and responses. 

I grew up in Northern California too -- not in a particularly liberal area I don't think, but just a typical northern California city I guess!  And even though I was part of a large circle of close friends (from kindergarten until my third year of college - when I transferred out of state), I've realized that I never knew the religion/faith background of any of them except maybe my four closest friends.  It was like that when I lived in DC too (after getting married).   Not that people were not part of a faith community, but it just wasn't something they felt necessary to state out loud to everyone.  Where I live now, there does seem to be a lot more flushing out of who's an evangelical Christian and who isn't, leaving one feeling either judged or accepted.  I don't know if it's being in the Midwest, the times we live in generally, how the Christian church has evolved, or what.  I was first exposed to very conservative Christianity, Christian nationalism, etc. through the homeschooling environment in the Midwest.  (And we're in a blue state.)

When I went out for lunch with some sweet older ladies I'd recently met a couple months ago, the first question I was asked by some people was, "Are they Christians?"  This is really troublesome and confusing to me.  It seems really strange to me to immediately feel a need to sort and judge people by labels.

Edited January 16, 2022 by J-rap

[HS Mom in NC]

1 hour ago, Quill said:

There is a member who has posted on the chain some “God talk” similar to what I said above.   Like maybe she’s trying to suss out who the Christians are by seeing who hearts or thumbs-up her statement. For my part I’m just hoping she picks up a vibe that that’s not really what we do in this group. We’re meant to be ladies having fun activities together; it’s not church or Bible study. Can we just kayak? Lol

Isn't sussing out who the Christians are evidence she doesn't assume everyone is Christian? Is it possible she's just one of those Christians who always uses Christian jargon/God talk around everyone while being fully ware that everyone is not Christian and thinks of it as evangelizing those who aren't and encouraging those who are? Or maybe she's one of the devout who just thinks and talks about God all the time wherever she is, so it just comes out of her mouth all the time in all contexts as a form of praise to God. I don't operate that way because I don't think people respond well to it (both Christians and non-Christians alike) and I don't feel the need to let everyone continuously know what's going on in my inner world, but there are those people who seem to feel a driving need to "be known" all the time...by everyone...in every interaction...about everything...They make me feel tired. Also, the Bible verse about being prepared to give and answer for the hope that you have seems to me to suggest a question about it was asked first.

So I can't say that I'm convinced your assumption that most people around you assume people are Christians is accurate based on that example.   Are there other examples you can give?

[Granny_Weatherwax]

After reading J-rap's response I remembered there is something but it's from people I already know are Christians. When DD was dating and we would say she was going out with so-and-so the response would be "Oh, he comes from a good Christian family. They should have fun." I never once had anyone tell me "Oh, that boy is from a great athiest family."

Edited January 16, 2022 by Granny_Weatherwax

[Scarlett]

10 hours ago, Quill said:

Something like that, though sometimes more specific than that. So more like, “…and the house was not even for sale but I prayed that, if God willed us to have the house, He would make a way…and then, out of the blue my cousin tells me that is her grandmas house, and grandma is moving into an assisted living this July, so, voila! Answered prayer!” 
 

Or particularly when it comes to illnesses, it bothers me a ton. Like God is deciding who dies of Covid and who gets better and goes home. 

Not your requested responder….I am religious.  I would say very religious.  However I am very much non main stream.  I hear an abundance of that kind of stuff in my area. I vehemently disagree with such sentiments.  
 

When I was  about 21 xh and I had been searching for a home to buy for over a year.  A co-worker began gushing to me about how God was blessing them with this new house they were about to buy.  It really bugged me and I called her on it by saying something like, ‘so you think God is blessing you but not me?’   She was not that intelligent and my comment blew her mind….

Now that I am older I have tempered my replies to things like that.  I smile and nod or making hmmm noises unless I am asked a direct question.  If this kind of conversation is going on with a person that I care to make a deeper connection with then I will question or prod and give my own thoughts.  But the fact is people aren’t  thinking when they say such things. To them it is like ‘have a nice day’ or ‘be warm and well fed’. 
 

[TravelingChris]

9 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Do you have objective confirmation that people in your area are assuming someone is a Christian? I'm from a very diverse place too and I've not witnessed situations where there was any evidence someone was assumed to be Christian like asking "What church do you go to?" without first hearing the person say they're a church goer or something related to church going naturally in the conversation.
 

I am living in the South.  I don't assume that anyone is a Chrristian.  Yes, we have lots of churches, and we have 3 synagogues, a Unitarian church, a Hindu worship place, a Mosque, and I am sure there are more groups than that here- maybe Bahai, Buddhists for sure, etc.  I do say I will pray for people- and I do.  I would guess my children who are in that category don't mind religius references because they are both married to Christians,

[marbel]

10 hours ago, Quill said:

I also had a phone interaction with a client who was moving in that direction, and (really and for real) there was an interruption on my end of the phone and I said I had to go abruptly. And I was sort of grateful for the interruption because it was getting weird, but I also felt a little badly for her, going out on that limb, only to have me abruptly end the conversation. But really I just wish she had never made it a God thing at all; why do we need to go there? Let’s just talk about settlements and leave God out of it. 

People say strange things when they are stressed out. Or she may have been so relieved by the outcome she just let loose spontaneously. I wouldn't expect she wanted anything from you; a noncommittal "I'm glad everything is going well now" or whatever is appropriate to her situation would suffice.  I get something similar on the phone now and then; of course in my situation I am never going to actually meet the person and there is no on-going relationship, but I just let them talk and say "I'm happy it's all settled" or whatever. People have offered me various blessings, I just thank them. 

I'm not your target demographic but I also am wary of people getting too Christian-y, especially right away upon acquaintance. I don't come across it much though. My area has a lot of different places of worship that seem to have full parking lots at the expected times, but I don't find it a particularly religious area, if that makes sense. People I come across don't talk about it. Maybe because it is a diverse area, people don't make assumptions.

Re: your group - you could always make a statement that the group is inclusive - all religions, political leanings, etc welcome - and ask that when people are posting in the group they refrain from assuming anything about others in this way.  

Oh this is not the same thing at all but once at work I was witnessed to by a, well, Jehovah's Witness over the phone. After we concluded our bank business, they told me they felt compelled to invite me to visit [jw website] and learn about God. I was quite taken aback but the person had a very kind and gentle demeanor (was also very nice during the call even though I had bad news about the bank account) so I just said thank you. I mean, we are all faceless and it's unlikely we will ever speak again, so no harm done. It was just an interesting moment. 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by marbel

[Miss Tick]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

When I was forming this group, I considered saying specifically, “BTW, this is not a specifically Christian group, though several members are Christian. But I know two members who are definitely not; one is Jewish, one is something else. But I chickened out and did not mention this when I was setting group parameters. 

I like the idea, but maybe just the first half. The second half is pretty specific and some people will not be able to resist trying to figure out exactly who those outliers are.

I'm flashing back to the shocking day when I worked at an engineering firm. One of the directors put up a plot of salary vs years in service and the idiot had color coded it by sex. I want the only woman, but I was definitely the only woman hired after a 3 year hiring freeze. Half the men standing around looked at me, the other half conspicuously looked away. I came up with a lot of loud, angry responses - much later, at the time I just stood there amazed.

I generally don't disclose my religious beliefs. I will nod happily with your benign declarations and try to remember for future discussions, but I don't feel compelled to reply in kind.

[BeachGal]

It wouldn't be unusual to hear similar comments in Hawaii. A lot of residents are Christian.

They also live with people of other faiths and interact with tourists. People seem to get along well. Probably because it’s Hawaii and so gosh darn beautiful.

[QueenCat]

I sit here and think about the different places we've lived & how that question doesn't come  up in most of them. It really didn't come in Georgia, Virginia, or now in Ohio. People might mention that they're busy with something at church or tell you that if you're interested, they have a great church, but they leave it at that. In Tennessee, it wasn't "do you", it was "where do you go." And then, if it wasn't "the right kind," you got invited to theirs! I felt sorry for Catholics there, they were really discriminated against by Southern Baptists and Church of Christ. Our closest friends there are Catholic; I was stunned at what they'd experienced. And there was a pretty good-sized Catholic church in town.

Growing up, in Central MD (Columbia), people assumed you were either Christian or Jewish. Nobody bugged anyone about it. It was private and personal. We did have a few Jewish holidays off from school. 

[Pam in CT]

The thing about signalling is, it's aimed at fellow insiders, but it's audible to those outside the circle. 

An off-topic comment like Quill's stressed-out client made... may not even register with the person making the comment. And if the recipient is like-minded... it is perfectly likely that the comment genuinely doesn't register as "signalling" at either the transmission or the reception end.  It's not (necessarily) that the fellow insiders are being disengenous.  The comment is so very ordinary and normative that it isn't audible.

Except if you're outside the circle.

 

I actually really, really love to listen and read and talk about differing faith traditions and rituals and stories and metaphors. For me, the topic is the greatest of the human Great Conversations, that span across space and time.  I'm all in for genuine engagement, and it makes me pretty sad that so many posters feel like the best/only way to deal with differences is to cast the entire topic as off-limits among polite people. 

But. That said, when I encounter the kind of signalling to suss out the like-minded that several pp have articulated... well. Those aren't the folks who are likely to engage in genuine engagement, so some form of soothing murmur/passing the bean dip is, most often, the best response.

[regentrude]

1 minute ago, Pam in CT said:

 

I actually really, really love to listen and read and talk about differing faith traditions and rituals and stories and metaphors. For me, the topic is the greatest of the human Great Conversations, that span across space and time.  I'm all in for genuine engagement, and it makes me pretty sad that so many posters feel like the best/only way to deal with differences is to cast the entire topic as off-limits among polite people. 

I was always puzzled by this "rule" not to talk religion in company because that doesn't exist in my home country (maybe because we don't suffer from the rabid proselytizing so common in this area) and because the conversations can be so fascinating. 

I have a very devout Christian friend with whom I had the most wonderful discussions about religion. 

[City Mouse]

I usually say that I am not much of a church goer. People often interpret that as meaning that I am Christian but don’t participate in organized religion which ends that conversation. I don’t bother to give them more information. 

[Scarlett]

And just to be clear, I don’t avoid discussing religion.  But I don’t respond to the kind of comments @Quill was referencing. Because I don’t believe they are interested in discussion.  They are just basically rote comments. 

[Ceilingfan]

5 hours ago, DawnM said:

But what if it is not Christian.   A Jewish person, a Muslim, a Hindu?   Have you been to those services?    What would you say to those folks?   If I understood the question correctly, I think that is what was being asked?   

My maternal grandmother was Reform; I've been to temple more than church. If a Hindu or Muslim asked in this community, or mentioned their faith, it wouldn't be with the expectation that I share it, because they're a significant minority here (more than I am as an atheist!) and I think my instinct would be to respond with curiosity, although it's not an interaction I've ever had. I've had the Christian denomination version often.

[marbel]

24 minutes ago, regentrude said:

I was always puzzled by this "rule" not to talk religion in company because that doesn't exist in my home country (maybe because we don't suffer from the rabid proselytizing so common in this area) and because the conversations can be so fascinating. 

I have a very devout Christian friend with whom I had the most wonderful discussions about religion. 

The general advice to avoid religion and politics in social situations probably developed because often, these topics become inflammatory and thus are not suited to the dinner table. 

If everyone was able to conduct the types of discussions on religion/faith/traditions that you and@Pam in CT have experienced, it would not be treated as a taboo topic. I also love to talk about different faiths and practices, but I find that many people just can't manage it. I attribute this to insecurity with their understanding or ability to articulate their own beliefs. There is also often a fear of being sneered at for not being able to articulate something perfectly to satisfy others in the conversation, so it's easier to stay quiet and avoid the topic. If someone I know makes disdainful comments about religion, either in general or about a specific faith, or lack of faith, I'm going to assume I'm not going to have a meaningful conversation with them.  (IOW, I'm not going to bother whichever "side" someone is on - if they are snarky or disparaging about people with religious faith OR people without religious faith.)

[Kalmia]

I have lived in Maine, New Hampshire, Pennsylvania, and New York and have never heard anyone lead with their religious faith in an introductory, getting-to-know-you conversation. People around here, especially in New England are very, very private. Your religious or church affiliation would be considered a rude thing to ask right out of the box. For example, I still have no idea what religion or denomination most of the new friends that I have made since moving back to Maine are. It is just not a topic of conversation that comes up. The only ones I know are two of the volunteers at work because sometimes they will volunteer to keep the place open on a holiday. One saying "I am an atheist, I'd work on Christmas if you want the place open" and the other "We don't do Christmas celebration until Three Kings Day, so I can work Christmas Eve." (Don't worry, we stayed closed both days so the volunteers could get a much needed break.)

I have spent a good amount of time in Kentucky and the amount of casual religious signaling in conversation was novel to my ears, but no one asked me directly about my beliefs.

If I was asked about my religious beliefs, what I answered would depend on the situation. I wouldn't be asked up here in the north, but if I was, I would non-fearfully say I am an atheist and prefer a scientific understanding of the world.

In an area where people might be surprised by that but not hostile, I'd say I was not religious.

But if it were somewhere where the people were obviously prejudiced against atheists, I would be nervous and just truthfully say I went to a Congregationalist church when I was a child. This might confuse them long enough for me to get away! Just kidding, there aren't many Congregationalist churches in the south and it would probably make them pause. Then, if they asked what kind of church that is, I could just answer that the church is considered to have originated with the Puritans and let them mull that over.  Then if they get concerned about Puritan beliefs, I could add, "But don't worry, now Congregationalists celebrate Christmas!" 

Thankfully, people don't ask me that question, once I am nervous who knows what might come out of my mouth!

[Pam in CT]

Honing responses to "rote" v "rude" insider-signalling

49 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

And just to be clear, I don’t avoid discussing religion.  But I don’t respond to the kind of comments @Quill was referencing. Because I don’t believe they are interested in discussion.  They are just basically rote comments. 

That's a good term, thank you.  It helps hone a distinction between normative insider-baseball Christian talk, which I do expect is probably inaudible to lots of people sending and receiving it, particularly in geography where "what church do you go to" is as common a conversation-starter and "what street are you on?" is here.

And it's useful to have language to differentiate that kind of thoughtless/very likely unregistered, rote, but comparatively-neutral insider talk from the other stuff. Global elites, controlling Hollywood/banking sector/ media, pulling behind-the-scenes strings, Soros and etc.  And the different-but-parallel package for Muslim terrorists/ seeking to install shariah law, and the different-again-but-parallel package about godless atheists/ "material"/ morally ungrounded/ seeking to impose their agenda.  Those kinds of comments swirl pretty freely as well.  Not ALL of the people who lean into this kind of talk are literally dangerous: some are merely insulated or ignorant. 

Enough of them ARE dangerous that those on the outside of the circle have necessarily had to hone signal reception skills.

 

And I certainly take @marbel 's point that neither set is very likely to have a very sustained or fruitful interfaith exploration, LOL.

 

[elegantlion]

When we lived in the deep south, I did get the "what church do you go to?" upon meeting people. At the time I was a practicing Christian, so it wasn't so awkward. 

I live in the midwest (where I also grew up), it's not really a topic upon initial meeting. I am not longer a practicing Christian. There is a certain Christianese spoken by some people and I tend to just "translate" for my own purposes - for instance, if someone is praying for me, okay, you're thinking of me. 

I feel more awkward in situations like you mentioned later, "god's protection" stuff while others were not so fortunate. It can sound like favoritism from God. I would try to redirect professional conversations - like when they started about God protecting them from the storm I would counter, "Yes, it was a devastating storm, many people affected." 

[TexasProud]

12 hours ago, Quill said:

I also had a phone interaction with a client who was moving in that direction, and (really and for real) there was an interruption on my end of the phone and I said I had to go abruptly. And I was sort of grateful for the interruption because it was getting weird, but I also felt a little badly for her, going out on that limb, only to have me abruptly end the conversation. But really I just wish she had never made it a God thing at all; why do we need to go there? Let’s just talk about settlements and leave God out of it. 

Because for some of us God is in the air we breathe. I don’t know how NOT to make it about him.  Just be up front. I will try not to say praying for you in your threads. Sorry it bothers you. 

[Scarlett]

6 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Because for some of us God is in the air we breathe. I don’t know how NOT to make it about him.  Just be up front. I will try not to say praying for you in your threads. Sorry it bothers you. 

You don’t know how to have a conversation with a paralegal about a legal case with out discussing your belief in God giving you a favorable outcome?

[TexasProud]

3 minutes ago, Scarlett said:

You don’t know how to have a conversation with a paralegal about a legal case with out discussing your belief in God giving you a favorable outcome?

I haven’t had an in person conversation with people other than my family other than with grocery clerks since Covid began.  But yeah, it just seems to come up naturally or did.  But when I get to have a life again, who knows. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Anyone who knows me well knows that I am a Christian. It is a very big part of my identity and colors my thoughts on purpose. (A big part of Christianity is learning to think as God thinks. ). I am not going to hide that from my friends. Not all my friends are Christians. They don’t hide their faith or underlying philosophy from me either. 
 

I have plenty of non religious interactions with people. And while I do believe in witnessing to who God is and what He’s done in my life, I am not trying to create artificial ways to insert it into conversation. I am there to answer questions but not to argue with anyone. 
 

 

[TexasProud]

Just now, Jean in Newcastle said:

Anyone who knows me well knows that I am a Christian. It is a very big part of my identity and colors my thoughts on purpose. (A big part of Christianity is learning to think as God thinks. ). I am not going to hide that from my friends. Not all my friends are Christians. They don’t hide their faith or underlying philosophy from me either. 
 

I have plenty of non religious interactions with people. And while I do believe in witnessing to who God is and what He’s done in my life, I am not trying to create artificial ways to insert it into conversation. I am there to answer questions but not to argue with anyone. 
 

 

Yes, I agree with that. 

[Wheres Toto]

4 hours ago, Xahm said:

Is a "fresh air event" one that meets outside for Covid safety, or one where people don't wear masks? If it's the second, they need to work on their code words because I would show up confused!

No masks.  And you wouldn't be the only one.  There's one post on my local group that is a "fresh air" activity at an indoor play place.  People are confused and asking what that means.  

I wish I hadn't seen this so often that I understand exactly what they mean.   I require masks for my classes so I get the "benefit" of people complaining about needing "fresh air" and "to see smiles" and "need to breathe".  

[mommyoffive]

14 hours ago, KSera said:

I’m not your target audience for the question, but I wanted to say that this must be regional in the US, because this isn’t common around me. I live in a relatively low church attendance area as well as an area with a variety of non Christian faiths being common as well, and I think people don’t tend to assume anything around here when it comes to that. I’ve had a similar dynamic happen with people assuming a political persuasion, and they can be awkward. I try to say something to distance myself from whatever they said in that case. Not sure they always pick up the hint, though. 

I would have to agree with this.  The people I met through homeschooling were Christian and it was more of an issue there.  Maybe I just met more of segment of Christian homeschoolers with the coop we were at.   Now my kids go to Nature school with homeschool kids.  Maybe that is less of a religous bent?  Not sure as it is a drop your kid off thing and I haven't met any parents there. 

People I meet outside of homeschooling may or not go to church, but it isn't usually brought up.  Especially not the first time I meet or talk to someone.  Over time they might just say something about going to church, but normally that is all that is ever brought up. 

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, TexasProud said:

Because for some of us God is in the air we breathe. I don’t know how NOT to make it about him.  Just be up front. I will try not to say praying for you in your threads. Sorry it bothers you. 

I don’t mind, “I’m praying for you.” To me that is the same as saying, “I care about your concerns.” 
 

What I find extremely troubling is, “God did {XYX} thing because of all my prayer warriors.” Recovering from Illness and escapes from death surely are the worst, though, because there are always people NOT escaping their brush with death. 

[TexasProud]

Just now, Quill said:

I don’t mind, “I’m praying for you.” To me that is the same as saying, “I care about your concerns.” 
 

What I find extremely troubling is, “God did {XYX} thing because of all my prayer warriors.” Recovering from Illness and escapes from death surely are the worst, though, because there are always people NOT escaping their brush with death. 

Ah… well that kind of stuff is rare and yes, it bothers me.  I pray a lot, but God is not a vending machine.  I know prayer works, though not in the way I think.  But yes the claim it Christian culture really bothers me as well.  Sorry for misunderstanding!

[Guest]

3 hours ago, HS Mom in NC said:

Isn't sussing out who the Christians are evidence she doesn't assume everyone is Christian? Is it possible she's just one of those Christians who always uses Christian jargon/God talk around everyone while being fully ware that everyone is not Christian and thinks of it as evangelizing those who aren't and encouraging those who are? Or maybe she's one of the devout who just thinks and talks about God all the time wherever she is, so it just comes out of her mouth all the time in all contexts as a form of praise to God. I don't operate that way because I don't think people respond well to it (both Christians and non-Christians alike) and I don't feel the need to let everyone continuously know what's going on in my inner world, but there are those people who seem to feel a driving need to "be known" all the time...by everyone...in every interaction...about everything...They make me feel tired. Also, the Bible verse about being prepared to give and answer for the hope that you have seems to me to suggest a question about it was asked first.

So I can't say that I'm convinced your assumption that most people around you assume people are Christians is accurate based on that example.   Are there other examples you can give?

Then let me re-phrase: I don’t like when there is an assumption that either you are already a Christian or you soon will be, wink wink. I do not want anyone “working on” the non-Christians in the group. For one thing, I know one of them (the Jewish one) has already been evangelized a thousand times due to homeschooling and being in that community. 
 

I don’t want to give too many examples, as it is the World Wide Web. 

[Spryte]

15 hours ago, Quill said:

If you are in this category, and you live in the US (or another place where “Christian” is the dominant faith system), how do you navigate this or disclose this when you meet new people? So, what I notice is this: a lot of people who strongly identify with their Christian faith seem to assume that others will be the same way…or else they are quick to “make a statement” of some type that notifies others that they are a Christian. But they do this notification as if they assume surely everyone else is too. 
 

I just wonder what people who have a different faith system - Jewish, say, or Muslim - or who do not ascribe to any faith system usually do when this happens. Does the person “make a statement” in return? Say nothing? Change the subject? Is it better to get this out of the way early in a developing interaction? Or wait until some unignorable thing happens? 
 

 

I no longer out myself or our family until I trust the person to whom I’m speaking. We’ve lived through too many instances of being judged or ostracized as a result of having shared that we are not part of the dominant Christian faith in our community. (Kid being told he is going to hell, on the playground; the time we set up a play date and then I unthinkingly disclosed that we aren’t church-goers—family just stood us up, ghosted; I could name more.)

When they speak the jargon, I just let it roll off, and respond to the appropriate parts. If they say they are praying for us, I say thank you, because that’s their way of thinking of us, sending good energy, whatever. It’s kind, and I would never be offended by kindness. 

I do think, in our area, people are often signaling inclusion in a particular group that’s larger than religion—we have a lot of Christian Nationalists here, some very large churches, and there’s a language that is recognizable. They have a definite exclusionary feel, for those who don’t don’t agree socially or politically.

We have neighbor-friends with whom we work hard to find common ground. I know (from comments they have made about mutual acquaintances) that they would be utterly shocked—shocked!—to know where we stand on organized religion. We just try to be good neighbors, good friends, and enjoy wherever we can meet in the middle, even though they don’t realize we are working hard to meet in a middle. 🤣

And I need to add that this makes me sad. I love to talk about religion and faith traditions, I find it fascinating. But most in our current area aren’t open to discussing in the way I’d hope. So I just ignore, keep peace, find common ground. If someone asks directly, I will share, in a guarded way, but overall I save the in-depth conversations for friends and trusted people.

[Xahm]

I'm a Christian and it's a meaningful part of my life, but I've struggled with this as people who assume don't just assume a little. They typically figure that if you share the same basic religious beliefs, you share the same political ones as well. For a lot of folks, I think, "where do you go to church?" is less a religious than a political question. 

I was sitting with some moms while or kids did some homeschool sports together. The other moms are all missionaries working with refugees after having to leave the mission field. They try to be nice and include me to various extents, but I'm not in their circle, and that's ok. From other sources, including my husband's work, I know some things about the area where they are working that they don't know, and I try to share when appropriate and I take part in city chat sometimes. Once, one was talking about how a very recent refugee was talking with her husband about how often they ate ham in particular and meat in general and what the rules were about that. She and the other ladies began talking about how very sad it was that he didn't have freedom in Jesus to not worry about rules. I brought up that it was likely a cultural/poverty difference as much as religious and that many Christians throughout history and today have rules to help them avoid gluttony. That wasn't acceptable input as anyone who practiced Christianity differently also didn't have "freedom in Jesus" and so didn't count. It's tiring to have to choose between smiling and nodding even when I don't agree or outing myself as someone strange, and trying to guess in every new setting whether it'll ever be safe to share ideas.

[DreamerGirl]

I have a very biblical/old lady classical name. So people are surprised to hear that and it either produces a question of is it my real name 🙄 or they get visibly more friendly. I stopped wearing a cross on a necklace and wear it as a bracelet and turned in because I did not like the second reaction.

Now I am in a bit of deconversion mode. Still wearing my cross bracelet. At this point it is more a piece of jewelry among the stack of bracelets I wear every day never taking it off.

Now as before I smile and try to change the subject. But usually it is more about my church in my country of origin which I am ok to talk about. I always say I am more comfortable attending church services in my language online when asked which church I go to which was the truth at that point in time.  I've not been asked the church question or any question really like that in the past two years as I don't think I have ever been in a situation to casually chit chat with someone. 

We used to church shop a lot, so few volunteers would call to check up on us and even that has fallen off. They usually ask if they can pray for us and I always say yes. I always say yes and participate if anyone of any religion offers to. I look at it as a form of blessing as long as it is just that. 

[Tree Frog]

8 hours ago, HomeAgain said:

To answer the original question, it's a mine field sometimes.  When we lived in Texas the first two questions were always:

"Where are you from?"

"Have you found your church family yet?"

 

You learn very quickly what to answer:

"We moved from....."

"Yes."

Full stop.  End point. Period. And you become much more interested in being friends with those who don't ask the second question.  Those who press an invite or for further information get "we're very happy, thank you for your invitation, though!"  We learned that volunteering information meant two things:

1. We're available for conversion.

2. (If I answer Catholic), we're a lost cause who will burn in hell and therefore not fit for company.

It's a pass the beandip moment until you work through.  As it is with every setting with possible issues.  I set a boundary line where I would give when possible, so I'd volunteer in the MoPS room rather than participate in the group setting, or we'd stand quietly and respectfully during invocations and such, but I wouldn't take my kid to the group events that were basically Christian outreach programs.

The scariest event I remember is when they took part of the ecumenical chapel on base and gave a spot for a prayer room/mosque.  It was needed, but at the same time people were so mad that it was going to be shared with non-Judeo-Christian religions that locals were trying to plan protests and writing in angry letters to the newspaper. It was awful, and such a stain on what should have been a welcoming ceremony that I felt frightened for anyone who wore visible articles of their faith out in public.  I have a necklace that is just my husband's name in Arabic and I've had to remember to take it off because I've been cold-shouldered at shops and backed away from when someone sees it.  I can only imagine how bad it is for someone else with a hijab or such.

I'm in a large south central city in Texas. It's assumed everyone is Christian, though I think there are many Catholics due to the large Hispanic population. I was asked if I have a church a few weeks ago and i said I don't. That was the end of what I thought was the beginning of a friendship, though I also expected an invitation to her church.

To the bolded, in the 90's military culture whose spouses served in the Middle East, these used to be popular gifts.

4 hours ago, Pam in CT said:

But. That said, when I encounter the kind of signalling to suss out the like-minded that several pp have articulated... well. Those aren't the folks who are likely to engage in genuine engagement, so some form of soothing murmur/passing the bean dip is, most often, the best response.

 

5 minutes ago, Xahm said:

I'm a Christian and it's a meaningful part of my life, but I've struggled with this as people who assume don't just assume a little. They typically figure that if you share the same basic religious beliefs, you share the same political ones as well. For a lot of folks, I think, "where do you go to church?" is less a religious than a political question. 

Again, south central Texas here. I find that the question asking if I have a church corresponds directly with a specific political party. When I was attending a church, it was often assumed I supported said party. I found I needed to pass the bean dip a lot. The interesting thing is that my county voted 58% vs 40% for the other party in the presidential election. I really don't like the assumption of Christian Nationalism.

[HS Mom in NC]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

Then let me re-phrase: I don’t like when there is an assumption that either you are already a Christian or you soon will be, wink wink. I do not want anyone “working on” the non-Christians in the group. For one thing, I know one of them (the Jewish one) has already been evangelized a thousand times due to homeschooling and being in that community. 
 

I don’t want to give too many examples, as it is the World Wide Web. 

I'm not a fan of aggressive evangelism either.  I get it if non-religious or non-Christian religious people people ask a question about their Christian or other faith after they've gotten to know them a bit and are sincerely interested  in it from whatever angle, be it to better understand that individual and what motivates them or out of a curiosity about their faith in particular. I agree unsolicited evangelism can really damage group dynamic, relationship dynamics, and/or Christian PR in general. I really wish they'd stop doing it too. It's not doing anyone any good.

Edited January 16, 2022 by HS Mom in NC

[SKL]

2 hours ago, Quill said:

I don’t mind, “I’m praying for you.” To me that is the same as saying, “I care about your concerns.” 
 

What I find extremely troubling is, “God did {XYX} thing because of all my prayer warriors.” Recovering from Illness and escapes from death surely are the worst, though, because there are always people NOT escaping their brush with death. 

OK but when you're dealing with someone who had a serious brush with death and they quip about their prayer warriors, can't we just give a little grace?  Is it really that offensive?  Clearly they know that not everyone survives - it's been very much on their mind!  Worrying about leaving their children motherless etc. ... I think we can relax the rules for them for a while.  Kinda like we don't hold people grieving at funerals to the same standard as normal times.  (At least I don't.)

I also think it's understandable to be both thankful that we survived AND sorry that someone else didn't.

[Momto6inIN]

I talk about my faith as a natural part of who I am. I'm not trying to figure out what everyone else is or trying to evangelize, but I'm not going to self censor my natural form of communication and thinking either. I mention my faith because it's a part of who I am, not because I assume everyone else is that way too. And I'm quite sure that my awkward out loud expressions of my faith don't really capture the theological reality of what I truly believe when I take the time to think it through and type it all out, so I tend to cut people some slack that when they're in casual conversation they might be saying what they think kind of awkwardly too 😉

[Shoeless]

When I lived in NY and Chicago, no one ever asked me anything about religion. Someone might mention a religious event they were attending, like a baptism or bat mitzvah, but it was like "Yeah, my nephew is having his bar mitzvah, so I won't be able to make the softball game after all".  Whether or not you were religious was personal business. It didn't impact whether they would be your friend or not. I was friends with people of all different belief systems and never had an issue.

When I lived in Alabama and now here in Texas, people ask what church you attend as a screening and recruiting tool. If you don't give the right answer, the relationship ends there, unless you agree to attend their church. It was really bad in Montgomery and Birmingham. I would be waiting for an oil change or online at the bank, and someone would approach me to tell me all about their special relationship with Jesus. Telling them you were happy with your current church didn't end the Convo; they'd keep on about how their church brought their relationship with Jesus to the next level, and you needed to switch to their church. 

It's honestly exhausting to deal with this. I consider religion to be personal, and having total strangers grill me on my beliefs is so rude, IMO. 

I was able to dodge the question more easily in Texas, and this had better/more  friendships here. In Alabama, there was no way out of it, so I only ever made friends with people on the USAF base. 

ETA: It comes down to the difference between sharing something about yourself (your beliefs) and attempting to correct something seen as broken in me. I am happy to hear about what is important to someone, but I am not at all interested in being "fixed" by someone. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by MissLemon

[elegantlion]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

I don’t mind, “I’m praying for you.” To me that is the same as saying, “I care about your concerns.” 
 

What I find extremely troubling is, “God did {XYX} thing because of all my prayer warriors.” Recovering from Illness and escapes from death surely are the worst, though, because there are always people NOT escaping their brush with death. 

If it's beyond the surface chit chat, for illnesses I sometimes nod and comment on the wonders of modern medicine. If it's a natural disaster, I don't really argue but maybe reframe it to "yes, you were very fortunate." I think it was on this board many years ago, we had a discussion on the phrase "I can't imagine what you're going through." I remember really thinking through that phrase and realizing that until it happened, that person probably couldn't imagine either and that they surely didn't want to be on that side of the situation either. I see it as a protective measure.  Assigning God's protection is what some might attribute to just blind luck. Now, if they turn it from their own situation to talking about other people it's a different game - for example, if someone says it must have been their time if someone is killed in a diasaster or that x group deserved it because of y.  

[regentrude]

38 minutes ago, MissLemon said:

ETA: It comes down to the difference between sharing something about yourself (your beliefs) and attempting to correct something seen as broken in me. I am happy to hear about what is important not someone, but I am not at all interested in being "fixed" by someone. 

Yes, this exactly.

[Corraleno]

In most of the places I've lived (southwest, west coast, UK) it's not common for people to ask where you go to church or talk about God, and the homeschool coop in my current state is totally secular. But in my previous state, DS spent part of a school year in a hybrid school (half day public school, half day homeschooling) that turned out to have been set up by conservative Christians who wanted the benefits of public school while ensuring that their kids were only exposed to "Biblical" history and science. Teachers were told to only teach math and English and that history and science would be homeschooled by the parents, but even the English lessons seemed to have an unusual amount of religious content. DS's teacher, classmates, and the other parents all just assumed that he had the same beliefs, and when it came out that he didn't, the other kids told him he was going to burn in hell and the teacher was just outright bullying him. One of the parents made a slide show of photos she'd taken of the class throughout the year and she showed it in class — the music was all Christian hymns, including Onward Christian Soldiers. I don't know how they got away with it in a public school, I guess they just made things so unpleasant for anyone who disagreed that those people (like us) left instead of staying and trying to change it. 

[regentrude]

I had a public school teacher say to my 3rd grader: "What??? You don't believe in God???"
And both my kids have been told by other children that they were going to hell. 
The really ironic thing is that I grew up Christian under a communist regime that barely tolerated it. It wasn't forbidden, but they harassed you quite a bit. And a couple decades later, I find myself in a place for which I am not Christian enough.

Yeah, so, so done with that proselytizing and bullying crap.

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by regentrude

[MercyA]

55 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

I talk about my faith as a natural part of who I am. I'm not trying to figure out what everyone else is or trying to evangelize, but I'm not going to self censor my natural form of communication and thinking either. I mention my faith because it's a part of who I am, not because I assume everyone else is that way too. And I'm quite sure that my awkward out loud expressions of my faith don't really capture the theological reality of what I truly believe when I take the time to think it through and type it all out, so I tend to cut people some slack that when they're in casual conversation they might be saying what they think kind of awkwardly too 😉

This exactly.

I'm sure at times I've said "Praise the Lord" or something similar on these boards when something goes well for someone. I have no interest in trying to convert anyone here, I'm not trying to suss out who believes what, and I don't think I'm engaging in signaling. Most people here know what I believe, and I know what many of you believe, too, because "we talk about things." (Sense and Sensibility quote there 😉)

I say it because I am genuinely thankful to God and I do believe He answers prayer, although not always in the same way and not always in a way we think fair. 

I can see being irritated if someone's spiritual comment has the potential to cause harm to others; for example, if they say, "I don't need to wear a mask, I'll just trust God" or, as I have heard, "God knows when everyone is going to die; it's no surprise to him; therefore I won't worry and won't vaccinate." 

I can also understand being justly irritated if someone makes comments in an effort to see if you should be included or excluded, or if they wrongly assume things about you based on your response. 

But genuine thankfulness to God, with no ill intent--I'm sorry if that causes offense when none is intended.

This is an interesting conversation. Thanks, Quill. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by MercyA

[ikslo]

1 minute ago, regentrude said:

And both my kids have been told by other children that they were going to hell. 

DS had this happen to him multiple times when we lived in PA.  Once at daycare and twice at the park.

I was ghosted by multiple homeschoolers when we lived there once they found out we were nonbelievers. 

And in every place I have ever lived “inclusive” has had a meaning specific to that group of people. 

[Lady Florida.]

I'm an atheist living in a politically conservative area that also has a lot of conservative Christians. I've been fortunate to find friends who are either atheist, agnostic, or liberal Christian (usually Catholic, Episcopalian, or Methodist). 

Most people here don't ask if you go to church. Sometimes a "praise the lord" comes up but it's rare. I've had neighbors invite me to church and I just say something like "thank you but we're not religious". It's never been a problem of them continuing to try. In our current neighborhood there's a neighbor across the street who's very active in her church and trying to get more people in her women's bible study. She invited me when we first moved here and I politely refused with the usual reply. We're still neighborly and it hasn't come between us.

I truly never heard of young earth creationists or the concept of being saved until we started homeschooling. I was raised Catholic, converted to Methodist when I married, and eventually let go of religious belief altogether. I was always in a bubble of liberal Christians, then we started homeschooling. At first the only hs group I found was YEC and I was disheartened. Then I found a group of accepting people and joined that group. It meant driving 30 minutes to an hour to all our activities but it was worth it. I'm still friends with some of those moms and ds is still friends with some of the kids (now young adults). One of his closest friends is Christian but religion is considered private and not something that comes into play. 

ETA: On the rare occasions when God comes into the discussion similar to the original question I do like Stacia and just tune it out.

Edited January 16, 2022 by Lady Florida.

[QueenCat]

1 hour ago, Tree Frog said:

I'm in a large south central city in Texas. It's assumed everyone is Christian, though I think there are many Catholics due to the large Hispanic population. I was asked if I have a church a few weeks ago and i said I don't. That was the end of what I thought was the beginning of a friendship, though I also expected an invitation to her church

 

Catholics ARE Christians. 

[Corraleno]

3 hours ago, Quill said:

What I find extremely troubling is, “God did {XYX} thing because of all my prayer warriors.” Recovering from Illness and escapes from death surely are the worst, though, because there are always people NOT escaping their brush with death. 

I have evangelical relatives whose every conversation is like the one you mentioned with the woman on the phone. They are constantly witnessing to random people and will be praising Jesus for a sale on ground beef while talking to the cashier or the person next to them in the grocery store. Every single text, email, or phone conversation I have with them is like that. Anything good that happens to anyone they know is because they prayed for it to happen, and when things go wrong for other people there are hints that maybe they just didn't pray hard enough. Two of the craziest examples: One semester when I was in grad school I had a course conflict and could not teach the section of Physical Anthro I was originally assigned, and my mother triumphantly announced that Jesus had created the course conflict because she had prayed that I be saved from the "sin" of teaching evolution. The last time I visited my sister I complemented some new tile work and she told me that when my BIL bought the tile the cashier accidentally rang up each box at the single sheet price, so they got most of the tile for free — and Praise the Lord for saving them money because they were really short of cash that month. I was just completely gobsmacked that she was literally crediting God with stealing tile from Home Depot for them, because they were good Christians who needed a break. Like what do you even say to that???

We haven't seen that side of the family in over a decade because they would not stop trying to convert my kids, like trying to trick them into watching YEC videos ("You'll love it, it's about dinosaurs!"), trying to convince them to go to their church "just to see if you like it," coaching their kids to tell my kids how awesome Bible Camp was and that I was depriving them of fun by not letting them go, etc. Zero boundaries or respect for other beliefs. Thankfully I have other relatives who are also Christian but are respectful and not constantly proselytizing.

[Murphy101]

18 hours ago, Quill said:

Something like that, though sometimes more specific than that. So more like, “…and the house was not even for sale but I prayed that, if God willed us to have the house, He would make a way…and then, out of the blue my cousin tells me that is her grandmas house, and grandma is moving into an assisted living this July, so, voila! Answered prayer!” 
 

Or particularly when it comes to illnesses, it bothers me a ton. Like God is deciding who dies of Covid and who gets better and goes home. 

There’s a LOT of that here.  I’m not the demographic you are looking for bc I’m RC  (though that’s a small % in my state.)

idk. I think people can express their ignorance and bad theology all they want. It’s nifty to have a heads up about who I’m dealing with.

In a good moment - I ignore it. 
In a less saintly moment - I try to tactfully call them on it.

Thank God! He saved our house from the tornado!

I guess so, but your neighbor lost their house, so um, *maybe* what God really did was save your house so you could open it to them? 

God will heal me/make me prosper because I believe in Him!  Huh. Unless he doesn’t. Have you ever read the book of Job?  Or have you ever pondered the most faithful and sinless woman ever to exist - had to watch her son be unjustly crucified. Just saying I know God loves us. But that doesn’t mean nothing bad will ever happen to us. 

[marbel]

2 minutes ago, Murphy101 said:

Just saying I know God loves us. But that doesn’t mean nothing bad will ever happen to us. 

In fact we are told to expect that bad things will happen to us. 

[Murphy101]

7 minutes ago, marbel said:

In fact we are told to expect that bad things will happen to us. 

As Tavye said, “I know. I know! We are Your chosen people! But, once in a while, can’t You chose someone else?!”

Amen, Tavye. Amen.

[J-rap]

On 1/16/2022 at 11:49 AM, Pam in CT said:

The thing about signalling is, it's aimed at fellow insiders, but it's audible to those outside the circle. 

An off-topic comment like Quill's stressed-out client made... may not even register with the person making the comment. And if the recipient is like-minded... it is perfectly likely that the comment genuinely doesn't register as "signalling" at either the transmission or the reception end.  It's not (necessarily) that the fellow insiders are being disengenous.  The comment is so very ordinary and normative that it isn't audible.

Except if you're outside the circle.

 

I actually really, really love to listen and read and talk about differing faith traditions and rituals and stories and metaphors. For me, the topic is the greatest of the human Great Conversations, that span across space and time.  I'm all in for genuine engagement, and it makes me pretty sad that so many posters feel like the best/only way to deal with differences is to cast the entire topic as off-limits among polite people. 

But. That said, when I encounter the kind of signalling to suss out the like-minded that several pp have articulated... well. Those aren't the folks who are likely to engage in genuine engagement, so some form of soothing murmur/passing the bean dip is, most often, the best response.

I agree with you that this subject, or the subject of the meaning of life/why are we here, is the most important one I can think of to discuss and one I love to discuss.  I love to discuss this with people who think differently than me because then I'm really challenged to think and I learn a lot from other perspectives.  But everyone has to be on board with listening.

Sadly, many of us have learned that most people don't want to listen at all.  They're on the defensive before you even open your mouth, thinking it's them against you -- you the enemy, instead of, we're all in this together trying to figure out life.  It's really so wonderful when you meet people who enjoy discussing these things though and don't feel threatened, differences and all.

Edited January 17, 2022 by J-rap