Beth Moore

[SoCal_Bear]

Well, that was brave of her because I guarantee that she's going to take a major hit in sales and in speaking engagements. 

https://www.relevantmagazine.com/current/nation/beth-moore-if-youre-not-going-to-get-vaccinated-for-the-love-of-god-put-on-a-mask/

https://churchleaders.com/news/403296-beth-moore-calls-out-unvaccinated-christians-greg-locke-and-sean-feucht-respond.html

[prairiewindmomma]

I would think the fact that she walked away from SBC and Lifeway back in March helps her feel much more free to speak her mind without fear of repercussion in lost sales and speaking engagements. She's already had a huge hit to both and counted it worth the cost to live aligned with her beliefs.

[Starr]

23 minutes ago, calbear said:

Well, that was brave of her because I guarantee that she's going to take a major hit in sales and in speaking engagements. 

I don't think money is a problem for her. 😉 it's great that she continues to speak up!

[kbutton]

Providing leadership in a leadership void (at least in my world). I am so pleased she spoke up. 

People here seem to think they can refuse both masks and vaccines and still be moral and ethical people (and pro-life). They need to be confronted with this. I wish more in leadership would do so. One of the most vocal and pot-stirring local people against vaccines and masks is the director of the local crisis pregnancy center and a state legislator who successfully agitated for our governor to be stripped of his emergency powers.

 

[Storygirl]

I so admire her for this. I feel like so many Christian leaders have been revealed to be Pharisees, and she's willing to speak biblical truth even in the face of opposition.

[*****]

👏👏 Or if you choose not to vax, quit harping on others that do. It is not a Christ-like thing to be doing. (I know some Christians that won't drop the subject...)

[Insertcreativenamehere]

Good for her! People need to hear this.

[mum]

Well said, Beth.

 

Edited August 13, 2021 by mum
clarity

[frogger]

I usually study without a Bible Study book; just dictionaries and such but maybe I should go see if any of her books look interesting. 😉😁

[TravelingChris]

I am not a Baptist but know that here, the pastor of the most prominent SBC church is very pro-vaccine, pro-mask and in an interview, he was saying that most of his congregation is vaccinated. I am pretty sure that most of my conservative PCUSA church is also vaccinated.

[PeterPan]

I'm not a BM fan, so I'll just say it seems like another rich entertainment/celebrity type person trying to tell other people how to think. Since she's not a scientist and has no qualifications to have an opinion, I give zero rip what she says.

Btw, Franklin Graham did a video with a doctor where he interviewed the doctor who gave his version of facts and tried to be persuasive about how christian/biblical his opinions were. I appreciated that he (Graham) at least knew where his qualifications were and where they weren't.

[kbutton]

3 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I'm not a BM fan, so I'll just say it seems like another rich entertainment/celebrity type person trying to tell other people how to think. Since she's not a scientist and has no qualifications to have an opinion, I give zero rip what she says.

So, you don't think there is a pro-life argument to be made here? A case for loving your neighbor? A case for erring on the side of protecting people?

Her view is absolutely consistent with the view of my DH who works in healthcare and who has stayed on top of recommendations/researched vaccines, and is really super tired of watching people die or nearly die at work. 

I discussed with him tonight that those people who picket near abortion clinics with graphic signs need to visit some Covid wards and take pictures. He offered up several different pictures that might stir some kind of humanity--35 year old mothers placed on machines to make them breathe, people with necrotic limbs because they are septic, etc. 

Have you read any of the stories of people who want a vaccine after they are sick? How about the people telling their family and friends to get the vaccine when they know they're dying? Does it not sound eerily like the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus? 

Quote

 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

“‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

I'm not a BM fan, so I'll just say it seems like another rich entertainment/celebrity type person trying to tell other people how to think. Since she's not a scientist and has no qualifications to have an opinion, I give zero rip what she says.

To me it sounds like a Christian who is actually walking the talk trying to get other Christians to do the same, rather than claiming to be “pro-life” but acting exactly the opposite when they actually have to do something rather than just talk about the evils of abortion. I say this as a former Christian who still has close friends who are evangelical Christians and most of my immediate and extended family is Catholic. They are all pro-mask, pro-vaccine, pro do whatever we can to protect the most vulnerable among us. You know, the Christ like thing to do.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Frances

[TravelingChris]

I don't like BM for other reasons but I think that it is your Christian duty yo do reasonable actions to prevent harm to others. With bad diseases like Covid, that includes getting a vaccine and wearing a mask in certain circumstances.

[Frances]

2 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'm not a BM fan, so I'll just say it seems like another rich entertainment/celebrity type person trying to tell other people how to think. Since she's not a scientist and has no qualifications to have an opinion, I give zero rip what she says.

Btw, Franklin Graham did a video with a doctor where he interviewed the doctor who gave his version of facts and tried to be persuasive about how christian/biblical his opinions were. I appreciated that he (Graham) at least knew where his qualifications were and where they weren't.

Well I’m not a fan of Franklin Graham. He seems like so many evangelical leaders these days who act more like politicians than Christians. However, I do appreciate that he is pro-vaccine.

[mom2scouts]

I absolutely do not understand the whole unvaccinated Christian thing. All the largest, most conservative churches in my immediate area are encouraging people to get vaccinated. In fact, the county health department medical director is a member of my church and he definitely wants people to vaccinate.

[ktgrok]

12 minutes ago, mom2scouts said:

I absolutely do not understand the whole unvaccinated Christian thing. All the largest, most conservative churches in my immediate area are encouraging people to get vaccinated. In fact, the county health department medical director is a member of my church and he definitely wants people to vaccinate.

 

and.of ANY group, Christians should be the most willing to accept side effects of any vaccine! We are called to SACRIFICE! 

[Idalou]

15 hours ago, PeterPan said:

I'm not a BM fan, so I'll just say it seems like another rich entertainment/celebrity type person trying to tell other people how to think. Since she's not a scientist and has no qualifications to have an opinion, I give zero rip what she says.

Btw, Franklin Graham did a video with a doctor where he interviewed the doctor who gave his version of facts and tried to be persuasive about how christian/biblical his opinions were. I appreciated that he (Graham) at least knew where his qualifications were and where they weren't.

Franklin Graham is one of the biggest "celebrity" religious leaders around, lol. The man has superglued his lips to Trump's backside. Definitely not anything like the man his father was. I'd say he, too, deserves zero of Anything from Anyone who gives a flip about getting through this pandemic. As a Christian, he makes me cringe.

Edited August 13, 2021 by Idalou

[kbutton]

33 minutes ago, Idalou said:

Franklin Graham is one of the biggest "celebrity" religious leaders around, lol. The man has superglued his lips to Trump's backside. Definitely not anything like the man his father was. I'd say he, too, deserves zero of Anything from Anyone who gives a flip about getting through this pandemic. As a Christian, he makes me cringe.

I am not a fan, but I do appreciate his support for vaccines, etc. And his organization sending Covid tents in spring of 2020. 

I did have to laugh though--I saw a podcast he's interviewed for where it sounds like he's against Christian Nationalism. I feel like he fuels it like a raging wildfire. https://churchleaders.com/podcast/391211-franklin-graham-christian-nation.html These are show notes with quotes from him. I didn't listen to the podcast, but I did see other leaders interviewed on the same topic and listened to those. I am utterly confused, lol!!!

[Pawz4me]

I can't really describe in polite terms how loathsome and vile I think FG is. Let's just say if there really truly is a Judgment Day . .  I wouldn't want to be him. He'll have more than most to answer for.

[TCB]

3 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

I absolutely do not understand the whole unvaccinated Christian thing. All the largest, most conservative churches in my immediate area are encouraging people to get vaccinated. In fact, the county health department medical director is a member of my church and he definitely wants people to vaccinate.

That is wonderful! My pastor’s wife (I should say ex pastor) is on FB urging people not to get vaccinated. Midwest SBC 

[ktgrok]

You don't need to be a medical expert to advise people to follow the expert advice. 

A pastor doesn't need medical expertise to tell followers not to drink and drive. Or to wear their seatbelt.

Honestly, with 85-95 percent of hospitalized patients unvaccinated, getting vaccinated is common sense. But she doesn't even say everyone should, she said if you don't, wear a mask. That's on the same level of medical as "cover your mouth when you cough". 

If a pastor can say, "Y'all, please cover your mouth/nose when you cough/sneeze" they have the level of medical knowledge needed to say, "please mask". Heck, using hand sanitizer is more "medical" than that. 

Edited August 13, 2021 by ktgrok

[Indigo Blue]

10 minutes ago, TCB said:

That is wonderful! My pastor’s wife (I should say ex pastor) is on FB urging people not to get vaccinated. Midwest SBC 

That’s just awful. 

[PeterPan]

17 hours ago, TravelingChris said:

I don't like BM for other reasons but I think that it is your Christian duty yo do reasonable actions to prevent harm to others. With bad diseases like Covid, that includes getting a vaccine and wearing a mask in certain circumstances.

The doctor Franklin Graham interviewed comes at it this way, but as I said, the key difference to me is that the doctor has some right to his science opinion. 

 

1 hour ago, TCB said:

on FB urging people not to get vaccinated.

Why in the WORLD would someone feel compelled to do that??? They have some kind of qualifications?

In both cases (BM or this pastor's wife) isn't it about wanting to be an influencer? It's telling people to be sheeple instead of telling them to think. So now your pastor should also advice you on the right way to treat your cancer or parkinsons or??

People are letting their emotions and their vanity lead them into illogical places, with clergy wanting to tell us how to deal with our medical. It's ridiculous and inappropriate BOTH ways. 

[TechWife]

22 hours ago, calbear said:

Well, that was brave of her because I guarantee that she's going to take a major hit in sales and in speaking engagements. 

https://www.relevantmagazine.com/current/nation/beth-moore-if-youre-not-going-to-get-vaccinated-for-the-love-of-god-put-on-a-mask/

https://churchleaders.com/news/403296-beth-moore-calls-out-unvaccinated-christians-greg-locke-and-sean-feucht-respond.html

She’s already taken hits in both of those areas over the past few years due to her adherence to her faith. This resulted in her cutting ties with her lifelong denomination & her long time denominational publisher/event sponsor.  Money isn’t her primary concern.

[kbutton]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

You don't need to be a medical expert to advise people to follow the expert advice. 

A pastor doesn't need medical expertise to tell followers not to drink and drive. Or to wear their seatbelt.

Honestly, with 85-95 percent of hospitalized patients unvaccinated, getting vaccinated is common sense. But she doesn't even say everyone should, she said if you don't, wear a mask. That's on the same level of medical as "cover your mouth when you cough". 

If a pastor can say, "Y'all, please cover your mouth/nose when you cough/sneeze" they have the level of medical knowledge needed to say, "please mask". Heck, using hand sanitizer is more "medical" than that. 

The fall of 2019 before Covid, our homeschool co-op had a video that showed dispersal of droplets when people coughed and discussed how an intake vent in one room could spread that cough all over in another room. They had tests that they showed on the video. It was vile and disgusting, but they used it as an opportunity to remind people to cover coughs and sneezes in whatever way they could manage (and the videos even showed which ways were most helpful). 

At least some of the people in that co-op mask only when required by law, and even then, they seem to resent doing so.

It's politics and nonsense.

 

[TechWife]

8 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

The doctor Franklin Graham interviewed comes at it this way, but as I said, the key difference to me is that the doctor has some right to his science opinion. 

 

Why in the WORLD would someone feel compelled to do that??? They have some kind of qualifications?

In both cases (BM or this pastor's wife) isn't it about wanting to be an influencer? It's telling people to be sheeple instead of telling them to think. So now your pastor should also advice you on the right way to treat your cancer or parkinsons or??

People are letting their emotions and their vanity lead them into illogical places, with clergy wanting to tell us how to deal with our medical. It's ridiculous and inappropriate BOTH ways. 

No idea about the pastor, but for Beth Moore, it’s her recognizing that she does have influence and seeking to use it for the benefit of others. Everyone has influence, it’s what you do with it that’s important. 
 

ETA - one doesn’t have to be a doctor to recognize or promote the benefits of vaccines, or for wearing a mask, for that matter. It’s plain old common sense.

Edited August 13, 2021 by TechWife

[kbutton]

1 minute ago, TechWife said:

No idea about the pastor, but for Beth Moore, it’s her recognizing that she does have influence and seeking to use it for the benefit of others. Everyone has influence, it’s what you do with it that’s important. 

Wisdom is a spiritual gift. 

[kbutton]

Just now, Seasider too said:

Seriously?

I’d screenshot that. Someone might need a reminder one day. 

An ex-pastor's wife here is doing the same (widow), or at least she was...perhaps she's come around to deciding it's your choice, but she vocally opposed the shot before it even arrived. She's young and super influential in both church circles and homeschool circles. One of her close friends, who is also a believer, likes to spread misinformation about fetal cells in the shots. Not that there are stem cells derived from an aborted baby, but actual fetal cells. 

They are a terrible duo and gang up on people. And then say things about "Jesus loves you, so do I, agree to disagree..."

[TCB]

29 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

Seriously?

I’d screenshot that. Someone might need a reminder one day. 

I took a screenshot. It may be a reminder that this kind of crazy stuff really did happen. She has no medical experience or training whatsoever.

[KSera]

6 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

I absolutely do not understand the whole unvaccinated Christian thing. All the largest, most conservative churches in my immediate area are encouraging people to get vaccinated. In fact, the county health department medical director is a member of my church and he definitely wants people to vaccinate.

I was going to suggest maybe it’s most prevalent amongst Christians who don’t attend church, but then…

3 hours ago, TCB said:

That is wonderful! My pastor’s wife (I should say ex pastor) is on FB urging people not to get vaccinated. Midwest SBC 

… clearly it’s not just that. Would be interesting though to see a breakdown of how unvaccinated against Covid status lines up with various denomination and/or church attendance.  Just as a curiosity.

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

The doctor Franklin Graham interviewed comes at it this way, but as I said, the key difference to me is that the doctor has some right to his science opinion. 

 

Why in the WORLD would someone feel compelled to do that??? They have some kind of qualifications?

In both cases (BM or this pastor's wife) isn't it about wanting to be an influencer? It's telling people to be sheeple instead of telling them to think. So now your pastor should also advice you on the right way to treat your cancer or parkinsons or??

People are letting their emotions and their vanity lead them into illogical places, with clergy wanting to tell us how to deal with our medical. It's ridiculous and inappropriate BOTH ways. 

They’re not coming up with this out of their own opinions, they are imploring people to follow public health advice so that more people don’t get hospitalized and die. That is in no way comparable to a pastor telling someone how to treat their disease. They are telling people to follow public health advice. People who tell people not to mask and not to be vaccinated are in fact the ones coming up with their own opinions and spreading them as fact, because those are not accepted paths for health and safety right now. The whole “sheeple” thing is a sad irony on multiple fronts at this point. First, because it’s almost always said by people who consider themselves Christian, yet are using the word “sheep” as an insult. Hopefully I don’t have to explain what’s sad about that. Second, it’s people who throw around the “sheeple” term who are so tragically being led to their own illness and deaths by people who don’t care one whit about them. It’s truly awful and tragic.

[Pawz4me]

Just now, KSera said:

I was going to suggest maybe it’s most prevalent amongst Christians who don’t attend church

No. My experience is to the contrary. It's the most dedicated church goers who are the most rabidly anti-vax (all attend Southern Baptist churches). 

[Frances]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

The doctor Franklin Graham interviewed comes at it this way, but as I said, the key difference to me is that the doctor has some right to his science opinion. 

 

Why in the WORLD would someone feel compelled to do that??? They have some kind of qualifications?

In both cases (BM or this pastor's wife) isn't it about wanting to be an influencer? It's telling people to be sheeple instead of telling them to think. So now your pastor should also advice you on the right way to treat your cancer or parkinsons or??

People are letting their emotions and their vanity lead them into illogical places, with clergy wanting to tell us how to deal with our medical. It's ridiculous and inappropriate BOTH ways. 

If you really feel this way about all Christian leaders who are also not health professionals, then you should also be condemning Franklin Graham. Because he’s given plenty of interviews and appearances urging people to get vaccinated, not just the one you cherry picked where he interviewed a doctor. A quick internet search will find them for you.

And getting a vaccine during a pandemic is nothing like treating cancer or Parkinson’s. Your decision on the former can have a profound medical effect on others while your decision on the latter primarily only effects you. It’s the public part of public health. Your actions and decisions affect others.

I do have to say I find you view fascinating, as I always thought part of a pastor’s job was to help people understand how to apply the teachings/tenants of their faith to their daily lives. Since we’re all dealing with a pandemic right now, it seems natural to me that some people would to look their faith leaders for advice on being true to their faith during these trying times.

As for sheeple. It’s all just the pot calling the kettle black. At least the ones being called names for masking and getting vaccinated are trying to protect the health and lives of both themselves and others and not overwhelm our medical system and keep our economy going. I’d certainly rather be called a name and be part of that group than those seemingly primarily driven by their own selfish desires and/or having fallen for all of the blatantly biased, bad info out there, propagated by terrible people and leaders who are profiting one way or another off of them. Others are of course free to choose differently.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Frances

[DawnM]

You know, until the whole political stuff and SB stuff came out I never liked her.   I now really respect her.

[HS Mom in NC]

I can't find the article now, but in the last few weeks I read one that said one key factor in overcoming vaccine hesitancy among religious people is encouragement from their religious leaders to get vaccinated. The conservative Presby church I'm attending now, in a very conservative county in the greater Raleigh area continues to have signs posted on all the entrances that encourage people to follow CDC recommendations.  I don't think it's weird at all that religious leaders would feel compelled to encourage believers to take action that saves lives and reduces suffering.

Right now where I live a friend of ours in the neighborhood who is an ER nurse working with COVID patients is working crazy hours to keep up with surging numbers. I won't be surprised at all if schools go back to pandemic schedules.

[J-rap]

6 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I can't really describe in polite terms how loathsome and vile I think FG is. Let's just say if there really truly is a Judgment Day . .  I wouldn't want to be him. He'll have more than most to answer for.

This exactly.  Couldn't have said it any better myself. 

[Ausmumof3]

10 hours ago, mom2scouts said:

I absolutely do not understand the whole unvaccinated Christian thing. All the largest, most conservative churches in my immediate area are encouraging people to get vaccinated. In fact, the county health department medical director is a member of my church and he definitely wants people to vaccinate.

The reasoning I’ve heard is that God designed our body and immune system so we shouldn’t mess with it because he already designed it good.  Which of course ignores the whole garden of Eden thing I think.

[HeartString]

5 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The reasoning I’ve heard is that God designed our body and immune system so we shouldn’t mess with it because he already designed it good.  Which of course ignores the whole garden of Eden thing I think.

Just *once* I’d like to hear a rational, thoughtful contrasting of “God designed my beautiful immune system so I don’t need a vaccine” with the concept of the Black Death, smallpox, Ebola, people in iron lungs from Polio, etc.  I just want to hear it attempted so I can watch the cognitive dissonance in action. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by HeartString

[DawnM]

10 hours ago, TCB said:

That is wonderful! My pastor’s wife (I should say ex pastor) is on FB urging people not to get vaccinated. Midwest SBC 

I have a friend whose pastors were all like this.   The head pastor died a few months ago from Covid.   No underlying health condition, in his mid 50s, etc....

[Sneezyone]

12 hours ago, TCB said:

I took a screenshot. It may be a reminder that this kind of crazy stuff really did happen. She has no medical experience or training whatsoever.

Someday, in the not too distant future, we will all be called upon to bear witness WRT what happened during this tragic era. 

[ktgrok]

8 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The reasoning I’ve heard is that God designed our body and immune system so we shouldn’t mess with it because he already designed it good.  Which of course ignores the whole garden of Eden thing I think.

And would mean never taking vitamins. Or a tylenol when you have a headache. Or some pepto when you have a stomach ache. Or having needed surgery. Or an epidural during childbirth. Or taking viagra. 

Somehow, me thinks they don't mean it. 

[GailV]

9 hours ago, ktgrok said:

And would mean never taking vitamins. Or a tylenol when you have a headache. Or some pepto when you have a stomach ache. Or having needed surgery. Or an epidural during childbirth. Or taking viagra. 

Somehow, me thinks they don't mean it. 

My neighbor is Christian Scientist, and I know that denomination sort of trends that direction at times.  I'm pretty sure my neighbor has been vaccinated, btw, but it does keep me on my toes about the diversity of belief.

Insofar as churches talking about health and healing, that's a long tradition.  John Wesley wrote a book of natural cures due to his concern that the poor of his day had little access to healthcare, for example.  Here's an article that talks a bit about the history of the church's role in health services https://www.sdpb.org/blogs/margins/a-changing-perspective-a-churchs-role-in-healthcare/

[kbutton]

10 hours ago, Sneezyone said:

Someday, in the not too distant future, we will all be called upon to bear witness WRT what happened during this tragic era. 

I have taken numerous screenshots as well, and that's after paring down my friends list and snoozing a lot of people. I missed a few things early on when I thought, "Surely someone will point out how crazy this is," and a few things I didn't hop on fast enough. It's telling when people deliberately delete things after being provocative and seem to not be at all sorry. 

[Faith-manor]

10 hours ago, ktgrok said:

And would mean never taking vitamins. Or a tylenol when you have a headache. Or some pepto when you have a stomach ache. Or having needed surgery. Or an epidural during childbirth. Or taking viagra. 

Somehow, me thinks they don't mean it. 

Hey now woman, don't mess with them about the Viagra! That's sacred. 😂

[AnneGG]

Good for Beth Moore. I saw some sort of YouTube personality reaction in my feed but kept scrolling. I’m sure the backlash is unreal. 
 

I left the virtual homeschool conference Heidi St.John was speaking at after she went on and on about being anti mask and anti vax and pro using your brain. Then she asked for money towards her campaign. Yikes. That reminds me, I want to toss out her book. 😆

[Stacia]

Re: the "sheeple" insult coming from so-called Christians....

Doesn't a famous prayer start, "The Lord is my shepherd..."? And followers are often referred to as a flock?

Smh.

[Frances]

16 minutes ago, Stacia said:

Re: the "sheeple" insult coming from so-called Christians....

Doesn't a famous prayer start, "The Lord is my shepherd..."? And followers are often referred to as a flock?

Smh.

It seems like so many evangelical Christians can’t see the forest through the trees anymore because their group identity is now so strongly tied to political identity. And many of their leaders, both religious and political, milk it for all it is worth.

[kbutton]

13 hours ago, AnneGG said:

Good for Beth Moore. I saw some sort of YouTube personality reaction in my feed but kept scrolling. I’m sure the backlash is unreal. 
 

I left the virtual homeschool conference Heidi St.John was speaking at after she went on and on about being anti mask and anti vax and pro using your brain. Then she asked for money towards her campaign. Yikes. That reminds me, I want to toss out her book. 😆

I wondered if anyone else had noticed that she went off the rails. I didn't know a lot about her to begin with, but I saw some things she posted online and was rather stunned at the ferocity of her ranting.

[ktgrok]

2 minutes ago, Seasider too said:

She has always been a very passionate speaker. I think her point of “going off the rails” has been a long time coming. She simply could no longer abide what she saw/sees as serious institutional problems that those in charge are refusing to address. 
 

She doesn’t always say things the way I might, but I believe she is gutsy for speaking her convictions. I don’t think anyone who has even somewhat followed her is surprised. That kettle’s been slow boiling for at least a decade now. 

I think Kbutton was referring to Heidi St. John, not Beth Moore, when she said she was going off the rails. 

[kbutton]

7 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

I think Kbutton was referring to Heidi St. John, not Beth Moore, when she said she was going off the rails. 

Yes, I was. And since I only ever caught bits and pieces of her stuff here and there, I didn't know her track record.

I am quite happy that Beth Moore has "gone of the rails" in the SBC world as I have been SBC for most of my adult life and see the same problems. She and Russell Moore are my heroes right now.