At what point would you lock down again?

[pinball]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

OK, don't stop. 

I recommend all of us who are finding this conversation productive make use of a very useful forum feature. I'll go first. 

I think you might mean *NON-productive*?

or maybe you mean *all of us who are NOT finding*?

[Stacia]

5 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I actually didn't realize you could do this by hovering! See me ignore everyone in a fit of pique and wind up talking to myself!! 🤣

Just make sure you check any or all of boxes you want to apply (posts, messages, mentions, signature) once you click the "Ignore" button.

🙂

[Corraleno]

18 minutes ago, pinball said:

I think you might mean *NON-productive*?

or maybe you mean *all of us who are NOT finding*?

LOL, no, she meant those of us who actually WERE having a productive conversation about assessment of risk factors might want to ignore your trolling and get back to the discussion.

[Susan in TX]

8 hours ago, Spy Car said:

I'm not sure that those who have evaded vaccinations w/o cause and extended the deaths and economic disruptions by their behavior have any clue the wrath they are in for is this all goes south--as seems likely.

Please enlighten me. What do you expect to happen to those who refuse the vaccine?

Susan in TX

[Corraleno]

Just now, Susan in TX said:

Please enlighten me. What do you expect to happen to those who refuse the vaccine?

Susan in TX

keep reading...

[Matryoshka]

6 minutes ago, Susan in TX said:

Please enlighten me. What do you expect to happen to those who refuse the vaccine?

Susan in TX

Uh, what's already happening.  They are overwhelming the hospitals and ICUs.  The vaccinated, by comparison, are not.

[Not_a_Number]

31 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Uh, what's already happening.  They are overwhelming the hospitals and ICUs.  The vaccinated, by comparison, are not.

I also think part of what might happen is a fracturing of people's relationships. Of course, that goes both ways... 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Problem is that you need willpower to keep from looking at the ignored posts. Sometimes I can't help myself and then I'm reminded why I initiated the "ignore" function in the first place. 

I've gotten better at this with practice. It works best if you are pretty sure you don't want to read ANY of someone's posts, though. If they are sometimes annoying but sometimes interesting, it works less well. 

[desertflower]

This thread has been reported.  Please be civil to each other.  Thanks.

[Not_a_Number]

8 minutes ago, desertflower said:

This thread has been reported.  Please be civil to each other.  Thanks.

I think we've gotten past the uncivil part 🙂 . 

[Faith-manor]

22 minutes ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Which shouldn't be a problem for people. If they feel strong enough about not vaccinating they should be okay with the consequences. 

Agreed. It is the "I want to ignore protocols, act Like nothing is happening, not give a crap about the rest of humanity, not vax, AND not have a single consequence for doing it" that makes my head spin. Very narcissistic.

That just isn't how it works. Thousands of years of human history attest to this.

France just passed their covid pass. QR codes are provided for those who are vaccinated, show antibodies, or have had a very recent negative PCR test, and it will.be required to use public transportation, visit anyone in the hospital, etc. People are protesting in Paris, but they kind of brought this on themselves with their refusal to so anything at all to stop the spread. I expect other countries to follow suit. It didn't have to come to this, and there will be very bad ripple effects. With what appears to be a 10-15% chance of developing long covid on top of the death toll and now higher transmission rates in children, it was inevitable if people were not going to "row together" as the saying goes.

It is frightening, sickening, and maddening! 

[AnneGG]

9 hours ago, Eilonwy said:

I find this quite horrifying that people who know they have Delta aren’t masking. I didn’t realize how lucky we are here. Everyone, nearly, would be masking in the halls nearby. 
 

 

I’ve called the health department a dozen times and they just keep telling me there is nothing to be done but quarantine my family for exposure.

 I just wish management would put up a sign on the front door so all these unsuspecting delivery people might have a chance to rethink a mask. Maybe I’m wrong to assume people would care more if they knew they were walking right into it. 
 

I could go on, but the more I write about this horror show of a building the more unbelievable it sounds. It’s a nightmare here. 0/5 stars for the south. 

 

 

 

[Pawz4me]

NM. What I posted was too snarky. But I might start a thread about the broader issue of cognitive dissonance/ideological inconsistency sometime.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Pawz4me

[MEmama]

7 hours ago, Stacia said:

Trolls don't stop. They will use any excuse for attention.

The "Ignore" feature is a great one. And if you're on a system where you're using a mouse, it is very easy to "hover" over a name/avatar & click on the "Ignore" button.

ETA: Just make sure you check any or all of boxes you want to apply (posts, messages, mentions, signature) once you click the "Ignore" button.

On an iPad, go to  your name next to your avatar at the top of the page and scroll down to the bottom of the list where you’ll find “ignored users”. Click there to add names to the list. 

[Eilonwy]

5 hours ago, AnneGG said:

I’ve called the health department a dozen times and they just keep telling me there is nothing to be done but quarantine my family for exposure.

That’s so disappointing.  It feels like some jurisdictions are just giving up.  I know of one where quarantine if you have covid is no longer required, and they are also stopping testing except for medical care decisions.  So no one will even know if they need to take extra precautions, for the most part. 
 

I’m sorry you have to deal with very unhelpful health officials and inconsiderate neighbours!

Edited August 10, 2021 by Eilonwy

[whitestavern]

10 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

France just passed their covid pass. QR codes are provided for those who are vaccinated, show antibodies, or have had a very recent negative PCR test, and it will.be required to use public transportation, visit anyone in the hospital, etc

Why are other countries allowing for those with natural immunity to skirt the mandate? I would be upset (as many are) if I had natural immunity and still needed to get vaxxed. Why is there a difference between countries with regards to this? Why can't the US have a pass like France's? Seems to make more sense to me than what we are doing. 

[Faith-manor]

6 minutes ago, whitestavern said:

Why are other countries allowing for those with natural immunity to skirt the mandate? I would be upset (as many are) if I had natural immunity and still needed to get vaxxed. Why is there a difference between countries with regards to this? Why can't the US have a pass like France's? Seems to make more sense to me than what we are doing. 

Well, making sense really isn't the forte of our political establishment!

[kbutton]

11 hours ago, Ordinary Shoes said:

Which shouldn't be a problem for people. If they feel strong enough about not vaccinating they should be okay with the consequences. 

They aren't thinking this through to that point. DH says when they show up in the ER really sick, they are shocked that they got sick. They are okay when it's theoretical. 

I think I posted this on another thread. I don't agree with everything the article says, but it makes some good points. It definitely articulates a lot of what I've seen and heard on FB.

https://timjwise.medium.com/covid-anti-vaxxers-arent-a-maga-death-cult-it-s-worse-than-that-16d74186e46b

Quote

Most who refused to mask (and reject the vaccine now) are not full-blown virus deniers. Instead, they simply didn’t believe — and still don’t — that it can harm people like them.
But if you know it can harm others who aren’t like you, and you still refuse to take the measures that reduce the risk of spreading the virus to them, you are a sociopath.

If you refuse a vaccine when you have no valid health reason to do so (as almost no one does), thereby keeping the virus alive longer by increasing the risk of mutations, you are saying that other people’s lives don’t matter to you.

And if you expected to be infected, hospitalized, and die, you would never take these risks.
That’s what these ICU confessions signify — that they care about their own lives quite a bit, whatever they might think of others.

Now that it’s caught up with them, the tears flow, and the panic sets in their faces as they wonder what they’ve done to themselves.

Because they never wanted to die, they just didn’t care if other people did.

 

[Faith-manor]

10 minutes ago, kbutton said:

They aren't thinking this through to that point. DH says when they show up in the ER really sick, they are shocked that they got sick. They are okay when it's theoretical. 

I think I posted this on another thread. I don't agree with everything the article says, but it makes some good points. It definitely articulates a lot of what I've seen and heard on FB.

https://timjwise.medium.com/covid-anti-vaxxers-arent-a-maga-death-cult-it-s-worse-than-that-16d74186e46b

 

Bingo!

[Spryte]

@kbutton Thanks for sharing that link again, I missed it the first time.

 

Our school district has finally decided to mandate masks, after some serious nudging from the governor.  It came down to the possibility of losing funding, but whatever the reason, I hope it will help slow things down here this fall. It’s two days till the start of school, so just in time.

Oddly, this feels like we get a bit of reprieve here.  I had planned to be considerably more cautious as soon as unmasked school opens.  Hoping this means we can relax just a bit.  

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Spryte
Typos

[KSera]

1 hour ago, whitestavern said:

Why are other countries allowing for those with natural immunity to skirt the mandate? I would be upset (as many are) if I had natural immunity and still needed to get vaxxed. Why is there a difference between countries with regards to this? Why can't the US have a pass like France's? Seems to make more sense to me than what we are doing. 

I think the problem was that a vocal part of the US public reacted strongly against the idea of this kind of electronic passport that would allow for this level of nuance. That left us vaccination cards, or in some locations, a test report, being the only option available. The irony of it is that the vaccine passport allows for a lot more privacy. People can just have red or green status and no one needs to know whether that green is because you have a medical exemption or because you have a vaccine or because you already had Covid.

[Stacia]

12 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Uh, what's already happening.  They are overwhelming the hospitals and ICUs.  The vaccinated, by comparison, are not.

Yep. Louisiana, Florida, Texas, ... already happening where they are turning away folks because they can't treat any more people. SC is getting there. GA too. Probably quite a few other states. I saw last night that Grady (a major trauma center for the Southeast, located in Atlanta) is no longer accepting emergencies, that's in addition to most of the hospitals around the Atlanta area being in exactly the same mode. Doesn't matter if you come by ambulance, car, or on foot -- they are turning you away. And (as I posted in the sick shaming thread), these overwhelmed hospitals are turning away folks who are there for all kinds of problems, not just covid. Bad car wrecks, heart attacks, strokes, broken bones, etc.... Saw something else that said labs are also overwhelmed, leading to excessive delays.

Maybe the anti-vaxxer sociopaths think covid won't happen to them but they should know the possibility of other things/accidents could. (Of course I am attributing logic and care where little to none seems to exist.) The injury and death rate that's attributed to covid is not just covid itself, it's all these other things (which affect both the vaxxed and unvaxxed) when there are no medical services and personnel available to treat them.

Again, I remain stunned that the anti-vax group that thinks these sheer numbers of death, medical infrastructure overwhelm, and trauma are perfectly ok while they spread outright lies and spew hate.

It is absolutely heartbreaking. And horrifying.

I do think that society (the remainder) will be changed when this is eventually over. There has been too much individual and group trauma for it not to.

[mommyoffive]

Yay our state is out of the red today on Covidactnow!  I don't know that it will stay that way, but it makes me feel a little better.

Summerfest in Milwaukee (outdoor music festival ) is making people show they are vaccinated or have a negative test.  I hope everywhere follows this lead.   

[Faith-manor]

47 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think the problem was that a vocal part of the US public reacted strongly against the idea of this kind of electronic passport that would allow for this level of nuance. That left us vaccination cards, or in some locations, a test report, being the only option available. The irony of it is that the vaccine passport allows for a lot more privacy. People can just have red or green status and no one needs to know whether that green is because you have a medical exemption or because you have a vaccine or because you already had Covid.

Right.

[Kassia]

36 minutes ago, Stacia said:

 

MThe injury and death rate that's attributed to covid is not just covid itself, it's all these other things (which affect both the vaxxed and unvaxxed) when there are no medical services and personnel available to treat them.

 

This is how my FIL died last year.  

 

[AbcdeDooDah]

54 minutes ago, KSera said:

I think the problem was that a vocal part of the US public reacted strongly against the idea of this kind of electronic passport that would allow for this level of nuance. That left us vaccination cards, or in some locations, a test report, being the only option available. The irony of it is that the vaccine passport allows for a lot more privacy. People can just have red or green status and no one needs to know whether that green is because you have a medical exemption or because you have a vaccine or because you already had Covid.

Was natural immunity ever going to be allowable on a vaccine passport?

Edited August 10, 2021 by AbcdeDooDah

[Kanin]

15 hours ago, Corraleno said:

"you do you and I'll do me"

I'd be happy if I never heard that phrase again. It used to mean being accepting, now it's turned into community responsibility vs. "screw others" individualism. 

[ktgrok]

11 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Was natural immunity ever going to be allowable on a vaccine passport?

It was never discussed because the entire idea was shut down by vocal opponents. 

 

[ktgrok]

People don't believe that hospitals are really full. Even in this thread people have doubted that, or pointed to hospital capacity 2 months ago as if that was proof of what it is now. 

[pinball]

2 hours ago, Faith-manor said:

Well, making sense really isn't the forte of our political establishment!

Oh, the irony.

[AbcdeDooDah]

11 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

It was never discussed because the entire idea was shut down by vocal opponents. 

 

The complete disregard for natural immunity leads me to believe that isn't the case.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by AbcdeDooDah

[Dmmetler]

2 hours ago, whitestavern said:

Why are other countries allowing for those with natural immunity to skirt the mandate? I would be upset (as many are) if I had natural immunity and still needed to get vaxxed. Why is there a difference between countries with regards to this? Why can't the US have a pass like France's? Seems to make more sense to me than what we are doing. 

Uh, I know that recent COVID infection is a reason to get a medical waiver for vaccination at my kids' college, and I imagine for most mandatory vaccination programs. As far as differences between countries, it's because ours has NO national anything. Right now all vaccine mandates are local and limited to a specific employer, school, or business (or network of businesses). They are all setting their own rules. It's a lot easier for a college with a dedicated student health office to manage checking documentation that includes letters from doctors and antibody titers for each student than it is a bouncer at a bar who needs to be able to check for a CDC card in the same way that they check for a fake ID. 

[ktgrok]

Just now, AbcdeDooDah said:

The complete disregard for natural immunity leads me to believe that isn't the case.

 

Many places are allowing for 90 days post infection as a reason to waive vaccines. 

But asking people at a business door to figure out if a lab report is accurate or legit when there are a bunch of different labs, etc..it's easier for them to ask for proof of vaccination. 

I've been saying for months now that we should have antibody cards like vaccine cards, that are good for a certain amount of time. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

3 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Many places are allowing for 90 days post infection as a reason to waive vaccines. 

But asking people at a business door to figure out if a lab report is accurate or legit when there are a bunch of different labs, etc..it's easier for them to ask for proof of vaccination. 

I've been saying for months now that we should have antibody cards like vaccine cards, that are good for a certain amount of time. 

Vaccine cards which are being faked in large numbers. It's meaningless. More security theater, especially, when vaxed are spreading it. Yes, the number spreading is lower. For now.

Edited August 10, 2021 by AbcdeDooDah

[kbutton]

3 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

The complete disregard for natural immunity leads me to believe that isn't the case.

I think most people are open to the idea of natural immunity having some benefit and for it to be considered in some way, but studies seem to show it's not as good as vaccine immunity. I would still rather be around someone who has recovered than someone who is unvaccinated and and hasn't had Covid (unless they were isolating in some kind of pod with me with agreed upon precautions).

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/natural-immunity-protection-and-variants?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxMTQ1MDQxOSwicG9zdF9pZCI6Mzk2ODkxNjMsIl8iOiJISHg5ZiIsImlhdCI6MTYyODYxMzczMiwiZXhwIjoxNjI4NjE3MzMyLCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMjgxMjE5Iiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.OZqrZ_QQNrjDbldKMU2IFkqpCHqFR0Jqlf0hVISDni4 

Now that we have a vaccine though, there is still an ethical question of whether we should put entire communities through huge outbreaks/hospital overwhelm in order to let people get their "I got Covid" card. It seems like we don't want to reward that behavior either. 

[Dmmetler]

4 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

Vaccine cards which are being faked in large numbers. It's meaningless. More security theater, especially, when vaxed are spreading it. Yes, the number spreading is lower. For now.

There are plenty of teens who get fake ID's, but it doesn't keep us from ID'ing to sell alcohol. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

Just now, Dmmetler said:

There are plenty of teens who get fake ID's, but it doesn't keep us from ID'ing to sell alcohol. 

They're not spreading anything. Those with and without vax cards are. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

5 minutes ago, kbutton said:

I think most people are open to the idea of natural immunity having some benefit and for it to be considered in some way, but studies seem to show it's not as good as vaccine immunity. I would still rather be around someone who has recovered than someone who is unvaccinated and and hasn't had Covid (unless they were isolating in some kind of pod with me with agreed upon precautions).

https://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/natural-immunity-protection-and-variants?token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxMTQ1MDQxOSwicG9zdF9pZCI6Mzk2ODkxNjMsIl8iOiJISHg5ZiIsImlhdCI6MTYyODYxMzczMiwiZXhwIjoxNjI4NjE3MzMyLCJpc3MiOiJwdWItMjgxMjE5Iiwic3ViIjoicG9zdC1yZWFjdGlvbiJ9.OZqrZ_QQNrjDbldKMU2IFkqpCHqFR0Jqlf0hVISDni4

Now that we have a vaccine though, there is still an ethical question of whether we should put entire communities through huge outbreaks/hospital overwhelm in order to let people get their "I got Covid" card. It seems like we don't want to reward that behavior either. 

I don't think there's enough data to say natural immunity is not better. I wouldn't call a vaccine that lasts 6 months a win.

[Kanin]

2 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

They're not spreading anything. Those with and without vax cards are. 

Right, but teens with fake IDs can drive drunk. I agree with you that vaccine cards are not the best method, but it's something at least. 

[Spryte]

FWIW, released in the last few days:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm
 

 In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.

“These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection. Among previously infected Kentucky residents, those who were not vaccinated were more than twice as likely to be reinfected compared with those with full vaccination. All eligible persons should be offered vaccination, including those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, to reduce their risk for future infection.”

Obviously, more study is needed, but it’s a start.

[Not_a_Number]

35 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

I don't think there's enough data to say natural immunity is not better. I wouldn't call a vaccine that lasts 6 months a win.

I think right now the indication is that everything lasts 6 months -- "natural" immunity and vaccine-induced immunity. Plus, part of the issue is that Delta isn't the same as the original strain. 

Anyway, can we please get back on topic? I want to talk about whether people are locking down again, not having this pointless fight again. 

[AbcdeDooDah]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I think right now the indication is that everything lasts 6 months -- "natural" immunity and vaccine-induced immunity. Plus, part of the issue is that Delta isn't the same as the original strain. 

Anyway, can we please get back on topic? I want to talk about whether people are locking down again, not having this pointless fight again. 

31 pages in but now it's time to get back on topic. 🙄

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

The complete disregard for natural immunity leads me to believe that isn't the case.

Where do you get that there is a "complete disregard"? In many scenarios, recovering from a Covid infection during the past 90 days is treated exactly the same as having been vaccinated: international travel, move-in at certain colleges....

Edited August 10, 2021 by regentrude

[Not_a_Number]

9 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

31 pages in but now it's time to get back on topic. 🙄

I don't want to fight about natural immunity in this thread. There are new things constantly happening in the country, and we're all thinking about how to balance risk, which is what this thread is about. It's long because things keep changing. 

[SKL]

43 minutes ago, Kanin said:

Right, but teens with fake IDs can drive drunk. I agree with you that vaccine cards are not the best method, but it's something at least. 

People with real IDs drive drunk.  Sigh.

I think vax cards as passes to walk through businesses are bizarre, and they discriminate against the most vulnerable members of society.  I will vote with my pocketbook if this becomes a thing here.

[AbcdeDooDah]

6 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't want to fight about natural immunity in this thread. There are new things constantly happening in the country, and we're all thinking about how to balance risk, which is what this thread is about. It's long because things keep changing. 

All the other tangents are cool. Got it. I’ll bow out.

[SKL]

24 minutes ago, Spryte said:

FWIW, released in the last few days:

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm
 

 In this case-control study, being unvaccinated was associated with 2.34 times the odds of reinfection compared with being fully vaccinated.

“These findings suggest that among persons with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, full vaccination provides additional protection against reinfection. Among previously infected Kentucky residents, those who were not vaccinated were more than twice as likely to be reinfected compared with those with full vaccination. All eligible persons should be offered vaccination, including those with previous SARS-CoV-2 infection, to reduce their risk for future infection.”

Obviously, more study is needed, but it’s a start.

I saw that, but I couldn't find what the magnitude of these cases was.  I mean is it 2.34x a tiny number or a significant number?  [Or, what is the reinfection rate of people who had Covid and did not then get vaxed?]  Not very useful without that info.

Note that this study is not a comparison of natural antibodies vs. vax, but a comparison of natural antibodies vs. natural antibodies PLUS vax.

(I don't think they did a comparison of vax alone vs. natural antibodies plus vax.)

[SKL]

10 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't want to fight about natural immunity in this thread. There are new things constantly happening in the country, and we're all thinking about how to balance risk, which is what this thread is about. It's long because things keep changing. 

With due respect, natural immunity is a pretty big aspect of risk.  We talked earlier about getting kids tested for antibodies, as that can give a better picture of that individual child's risk.  A lot of kids, especially where you live, have had Covid.

But I'll try to remember this is not the thread for that conversation any more.

[Pam in CT]

I expect the term "lock down" means different things to different people (even back in March-April 2020, even in the hardest-hit states, none of us truly "locked down" like New Zealand did, or other nations -- my daughter's roommate in Saudi was unable to go outside > 1,000 meters from their apartment for weeks on end).

But Delta is (infuriatingly; it's preventable this time around in a way it was not a year ago) already causing us to dial back from our brief post-vaccination expansion.  We've shifted from restaurant dining to outdoor only; I've moved most IRL socialization back outdoors, my Torah study group is meeting IRL (we were online for 15 months) but outdoors; the civic groups I'm involved with are planning all IRL events Sept and Oct outdoors or very well ventilated barn-like structures; and we're  not planning IRL events beyond that.

And masks are back on.

And there is a LOT of trepidation about schools starting up. Thus far the plan is IRL with mandatory masking. But there's an expectation that cases will spike. Currently the town debate is about how to do & pay for surveillance testing in the schools.

[pinball]

12 minutes ago, AbcdeDooDah said:

All the other tangents are cool. Got it. I’ll bow out.

 

7 minutes ago, SKL said:

With due respect, natural immunity is a pretty big aspect of risk.  We talked earlier about getting kids tested for antibodies, as that can give a better picture of that individual child's risk.  A lot of kids, especially where you live, have had Covid.

But I'll try to remember this is not the thread for that conversation any more.

I know you women realize that this type of gatekeeping is used to shutdown conversations no matter where (what thread) they happen…